Natalee Case Discussion #770 9/20/08 - 10/04/08

[Lala'sMom]

I need some one that is way smarter than me to answer this question....

Where is the information about Paulus being denied compensation for this case based on that 4 AM sighting of him at the ATM?  Do we have that in some official capacity being written down?  Was it a news story or was it written in a local Aruban paper?  I would really, really, really appreciate it if some one with access to that information could post it once again for me.  I want to narrow it down to whether or not there was a witness that saw them or was it based on something else that caused the courts to decide Paulus could not get any money for his troubles.

I really need this information.

[Lala'sMom]

One more thing....would someone please check for an update on the Dr. Phil case.  Have there been any depositions taken and where are we at with this at this time? TIA

[Magnolia]

The Persistence was there at a different time of year.
As I recall, they were bucking tropical storm seas all the way there.
The trade winds create different conditions at different times
of the year.
I thnk the seas were calm when Natalee disappeared.

[bleachedblack]

A fisherman...yes..but would the ones we know that were involved be able to do that?  I think we give them too much credit at being adept at doing what fisherman can do.  I do not think it was just one person that dumped Natalee...that is if she was dumped at sea at all....still there many people that do not think she was ever taken out to sea.

Back to Shango..."never heard the buoy toll" ..."didn't build sandcastles".

Witness that sees Joran at 4 AM....Paulus later...when did first light happen that day? 
Shoe in a pond...burials in a crypt....shallow grave....just too many things we will never know.

My opinions are just mine and they may change tomorrow.
It has been my experience that children raised near the ocean know all about the
ocean and all that pertains to it.  They know boats and scuba and fish.
The ocean is their playgound.

I agree with you..only thing that gives me pause is the way that water looked when the Persistence was out there...a small boat would be tossed about like a toy in those waves.  I am more inclined to think a larger boat was used if we go with the ocean burial.  Like you it's just my opinion.  Sander certainly seems likely to be able to pull it off instead of Koen...also i have often wondered how many of us would have a ready made method of body disposal and be able to do it so well without some previous experience.  I mean, how many people do you know that can be called by their own son and jump into clean up mode without knowing beforehand who to call and what to do? 

The boats the fishermen use are very small and I imagine there are some days when the water conditions would be to rough. The trap on the other hand- ie as the one found by the persistence had to weigh a couple hundred pounds......did we have it confirmed that the trap they found was exactly like the one missing from the Fishermens Huts? I will post this video link because the size of the fishermens boat, and if I recall correctly Tim Miller showing a trap at one point , are similar to the one in this video.....not like the one found by the Persistence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpxYEdXpjcw

[LoRain]

Thanks for the reply Mum....and I remember watching the video of the trap....when the divers were next to it...the size looked plenty big to place someone in...

[Magnolia]

A fisherman...yes..but would the ones we know that were involved be able to do that?  I think we give them too much credit at being adept at doing what fisherman can do.  I do not think it was just one person that dumped Natalee...that is if she was dumped at sea at all....still there many people that do not think she was ever taken out to sea.

Back to Shango..."never heard the buoy toll" ..."didn't build sandcastles".

Witness that sees Joran at 4 AM....Paulus later...when did first light happen that day? 
Shoe in a pond...burials in a crypt....shallow grave....just too many things we will never know.

My opinions are just mine and they may change tomorrow.
It has been my experience that children raised near the ocean know all about the
ocean and all that pertains to it.  They know boats and scuba and fish.
The ocean is their playgound.

I agree with you..only thing that gives me pause is the way that water looked when the Persistence was out there...a small boat would be tossed about like a toy in those waves.  I am more inclined to think a larger boat was used if we go with the ocean burial.  Like you it's just my opinion.  Sander certainly seems likely to be able to pull it off instead of Koen...also i have often wondered how many of us would have a ready made method of body disposal and be able to do it so well without some previous experience.  I mean, how many people do you know that can be called by their own son and jump into clean up mode without knowing beforehand who to call and what to do? 

The boats the fishermen use are very small and I imagine there are some days when the water conditions would be to rough. The trap on the other hand- ie as the one found by the persistence had to weigh a couple hundred pounds......did we have it confirmed that the trap they found was exactly like the one missing from the Fishermens Huts? I will post this video link because the size of the fishermens boat, and if I recall correctly Tim Miller showing a trap at one point , are similar to the one in this video.....not like the one found by the Persistence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpxYEdXpjcw

Tim and the Persistence Crew had a trap built to match the specifications
that the fisherman provided as to the exact size of the missing trap.

[Nut44x4]

I need some one that is way smarter than me to answer this question....

Where is the information about Paulus being denied compensation for this case based on that 4 AM sighting of him at the ATM?  Do we have that in some official capacity being written down?  Was it a news story or was it written in a local Aruban paper?  I would really, really, really appreciate it if some one with access to that information could post it once again for me.  I want to narrow it down to whether or not there was a witness that saw them or was it based on something else that caused the courts to decide Paulus could not get any money for his troubles.

I really need this information.

09. COMPENSATION DENIED - DETENTION JUSTIFIED

Aruba Diario - 02-14-07
The whole case of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway gets a different twist now that the information has come out from no less than the Superior Court, and in which mention is made of the declarations of witnesses and a phone tap that show or give an indication that Paul van der Sloot had on two occasions personal contact with Natalee during the night that she disappeared. Mention is made that, according to one or more official reports of the phone tap and also the declaration of Paul van der Sloot himself, that Paul fetched Joran and Natalee at McDonald and took them to the Holiday Inn. Based on this information, the judicial authorities and the police had at that time a justified basis to arrest Paul van der Sloot based on different suspicions. Translation Credit: Diario Aruba

http://nataleesfreebirds.blogspot.com/2007/08/paulus-van-der-sloot.html

[bleachedblack]

The link at this time does not seem to be working. This article was posted by Debbie at BFN. Nor does it specifically mention the 4 am discrepancy, so I will keep looking.


+++++++++
No damages in Holloway Case

15 February 2007

AMSTERDAM – Paul van der Sloot, father of the main suspect in the Natalee Holloway case, has not been awarded any damages by the court in Aruba. The decision cannot be appealed.

Paul van der Sloot was himself detained from 23 June until 26 June 2005 in connection with the disappearance of American high school student Natalee Holloway. The examining magistrate decided at the time that there was not enough evidence of involvement in the case.

The father of Joran, who is still a suspect in the case, based his claim for damages on this decision from the magistrate. Last year the court initially ruled that he should be granted damages of 40,000 Aruban guilders (18,000 euro).

The court has now ruled that his arrest at the time was “without grounds but not unjustified.” “So he will not be getting anything,” summarised lawyer Arie Swaen.

Eighteen-year-old Holloway disappeared after a night out on 30 May 2005. She left a nightclub with three young men and was never found. The police have arrested ten people since her disappearance but all have since been released.

There was much criticism from the US about how Aruban authorities handled the case. The Netherlands has led the investigation since September and made officers of the national police corps available to the effort.

http://www.expatica.com/actual/article.asp?subchannel_id=19&story_id=36556

[Nut44x4]

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2007/02/14/nothing-for-you-paulus-van-der-sloot-says-supreme-court

Article there

[bleachedblack]

Magnolia wrote;

Tim and the Persistence Crew had a trap built to match the specifications
that the fisherman provided as to the exact size of the missing trap.

Do you recall what those measurements/ weight were? I would be interested in knowing,TIA.

[Nut44x4]

shot

[bleachedblack]

It appears likely that what Paulus was overheard saying to the posse the night they arrived outside his home may have been correctly heard and therefore compensation denied?


++++++++++++
Reporter (Twan Huys): On the day you were arrested, this past Thursday, with which communication were you told?  What was told to you as to why you were taken into custody?

Paul van der Sloot: That was not told to me when I was apprehended.  During the apprehension I was told that I was suspected of complicity to murder manslaughter and usurpatory freedom spoliation (kidnapping). During the session with the judge [5], it was told that the suspicion originated, because that Monday night, when so many people were standing there in front of the door, I allegedly declared that at four o'clock, I picked up Joran. And someone else, allegedly declared that I picked up Joran and Natalee, while my own declaration was, directed at police officers, that I picked up Joran at eleven o'clock at the McDonald's. That is, of course remarkable that the public prosecutor's office adds two witness statements of people who were standing somewhere in the back, and not the witness declaration from the police officers, where I direct myself to, and directed myself to, as much as possible.

http://www.scrux.com/natalee/paulusinterview.htm

Reporter (Twan Huys):  And these declarations were the base for your arrest and incarceration?

Paul van der Sloot: Together with the fact that I allegedly instructed the boys, Deepak, Satish and Joran what they should do, say or do, in case of a possible apprehension. And indeed, I have, when I foresaw that they could go from witness to suspect, explained them the procedure, with the intention that they will not panic. But, also that was enough for the prosecutor's office to suspect me of complicity.

[Magnolia]

I need some one that is way smarter than me to answer this question....

Where is the information about Paulus being denied compensation for this case based on that 4 AM sighting of him at the ATM?  Do we have that in some official capacity being written down?  Was it a news story or was it written in a local Aruban paper?  I would really, really, really appreciate it if some one with access to that information could post it once again for me.  I want to narrow it down to whether or not there was a witness that saw them or was it based on something else that caused the courts to decide Paulus could not get any money for his troubles.

I really need this information.

Would never presume to be smarter than you Lalas.
Diario printed the story on Vantentines Day in 2007,
I think I have seen a copy of the official document somewhere.
Here is the Freebirds info on Paulus.

http://nataleesfreebirds.blogspot.com/2007/08/paulus-van-der-sloot.html

[johan555]

how the hell can they say this ???
The investigation into the possible involvement of the Dutch national Joran van der Sloot in the disappearance of American student Natalee Holloway, at the end of this year.
It is the same mesaage as last year 

[Magnolia]

Magnolia wrote;

Tim and the Persistence Crew had a trap built to match the specifications
that the fisherman provided as to the exact size of the missing trap.

Do you recall what those measurements/ weight were? I would be interested in knowing,TIA.

I have no idea of the specifications.  The picture of the trap in the
grass, close to the huts is the new one that they had made.

[MuffyBee]

how the hell can they say this ???
The investigation into the possible involvement of the Dutch national Joran van der Sloot in the disappearance of American student Natalee Holloway, at the end of this year.
It is the same mesaage as last year 

It's their annual message...

[johan555]

History's Most Famous Missing Persons
Being famous doesn't make you easier to find

Posted: Thursday, September 18, 2008

Carole Morre is a columnist and contributing editor at Law Enforcement Technology. A former criminal investigator, she writes for numerous national publications. She is passionate about the need for better tools in the investigation of missing persons cases and identification of recovered remains.


CAROLE MOORE
Missing Persons Contributor


If you had to pick the world's most famous missing person, who would it be? My vote would probably go to Amelia Earhart, who inspired so many little girls to reach for the skies.

Another disappearance I've always found interesting is turn-of-the-century writer Ambrose Bierce, who vanished while in his 70s somewhere in the Mexican countryside during the Mexican revolution. Historical accounts say Bierce traveled to Chihuahua with Pancho Villa's troops, and then simply dropped off the face of the earth.

Jimmy Hoffa, leader of the Teamsters and an enigmatic figure in American labor, also mysteriously evaporated, although it is widely (and probably correctly) believed that Hoffa was the victim of a contract hit authorized by organized crime.

Being rich or famous or a member of the ruling class offers no protection against misfortune, just more publicity and the guarantee there will be much conjecture on the parts of the public and media. For proof, consider the case of Owain Glyndwr, the last Welsh-born Prince of Wales.

Glydwr led a long-running revolt against the sitting English monarch. Despite a rousing start, his forces were soon routed, and the charismatic leader disappeared into the pages of time, never to be heard from again.

His last confirmed sighting: 1412. To this day scholars, historians and amateur sleuths continue to seek Glydwr's grave. He's also been the subject of a number of literary works and was represented as a character in one of Shakespeare’s plays.

Royal blood certainly cuts down on the chances that a disappearance is innocent. Many royals, such as the two young princes in the tower, appear to be victims of age-old power grabs in dark and dangerous times. The princes, nephews of Richard III, were relegated to the Tower Of London at the time of their disappearance. Their fate represents a lingering mystery in the subsequent centuries. Skeletal remains, possibly linked to the two boys, were found during some old renovations, but the case remains unresolved.

Virginia Dare, the first child born to English settlers, went missing, leaving history with a huge question mark on her fate and that of the other early colonists. Playwright Paul Green's outdoor drama, The Lost Colony, plays to packed stadiums every year, proving that even today, historical disappearances intrigue us all.

In more recent times, adventurous men and women have stepped into the pages of history in the pursuit of one truth or another. Englishman Percy Fawcett, an archaeologist, disappeared on an expedition with his son and a friend while looking for the famous city of gold in South America. Other adventurers include the progeny of famous families: Actor Errol Flynn's son Sean vanished with a co-worker while making a documentary on the Khmer Rouge in 1970; and Michael Rockefeller, scion of the wealthy Rockefeller family, disappeared during a scholarly expedition to New Guinea.

Transportation mishaps add to the mysteries of missing persons: ships have been found devoid of their occupants, airliners have taken off and never been heard from again and others have ridden or driven off into the sunset - and total oblivion.

Amelia Earhart's disappearance, along with her navigator Fred Noonan, constitutes one of the greatest and certainly most debated, missing persons cases in history.

An accomplished aviatrix at a time when the world was beginning to feel the grim effects of the Axis alliance, Earhart - with Noonan - was trying to circumnavigate the globe when the plane disappeared over the Pacific Ocean. Although many theories have been floated over the years as to their fate - from rumors they were working as U.S. government spies, to the pair's crash landing on a barren Pacific atoll - no definitive answer as to their fate has surfaced.

Earhart's case continues to draw interest for three reasons: Her fame at the time of her disappearance, the perpetuation of theories and continuing nonstop publicity.

The vast majority of missing people were not famous. In fact, most of the missing are ordinary, representing a mix of individuals who have chosen to remove themselves from society and others with no choice in the matter. It is this last group, the ones whose lives are disrupted as a result of abduction and other crimes that police seek.

While willful disappearances also concern authorities, especially when the individuals are minors or suffering from some type of mental impairment, the cases involving foul play or accident are by far the ones that receive the greatest media play. Most continuing publicity results from friends and family keeping high the public interest.

Publicity like this insures high public interest in missing individuals like Kristen Modafferi, a North Carolina college student who disappeared from a summer job in San Francisco; Jason Jolkowski, a young man who disappeared while on his way to work in Omaha, Neb.; and Natalee Holloway, a recent high school graduate who vanished while on a post-graduation trip to Aruba.

In each case, the families of these missing children have worked hard to keep their loved ones visible and their causes active by building Web sites, giving interviews, posting photographs and in general staying proactively involved with the media. I can't imagine a more difficult task.

While the search for someone famous, like Amelia Earhart will always attract attention, the families of those who are not already in the public eye have to work hard to put and keep them there. It's a thankless job and one I hope never to learn.

[johan555]

Warren Sonne: Must be a cover-up

 The Natalie Holloway case. If ever there was a case that has frustrated the American media, this is it. The police and prosecutor in Aruba have been the brunt of a tenacious and sustained attack from U.S. journalists, and from the Holloway/Twitty families. It is understandable that the family would continue to push for an arrest or information, and to try and keep the case in the headlines. On the other hand, our media has taken the position that Aruba is simply being, well…un-American. Don't they know about the First Amendment down in Aruba? How dare they not tell us everything they know! Where do they get off not leaking to the press? Must be a cover-up, or incompetence, or inexperience. All of these claims continue to be made against the Arubans, who continue to keep their finger in the information dike.

It seems to me that our prosecutors and police should be taking notes here.



Warren Sonne is the President of Pinnacle Protective Services in NY, and SunState Investigative Service, in FL, the founder of the United States Association of Professional Investigators, and the author of "Criminal Investigations for the Professional Investigator (Taylor&Francis/CRC Publications, 2006). He retired as a detective from the New York City Police Department, where he served as an investigator for 18 years in a number of elite units. During his NYPD service, he was awarded numerous decorations, including the department's second-highest honor, the Combat Cross. He has extensive specialized training and experience in many types of investigations and investigative techniques, both as a police and as a private investigator.

[Lala'sMom]

I need some one that is way smarter than me to answer this question....

Where is the information about Paulus being denied compensation for this case based on that 4 AM sighting of him at the ATM?  Do we have that in some official capacity being written down?  Was it a news story or was it written in a local Aruban paper?  I would really, really, really appreciate it if some one with access to that information could post it once again for me.  I want to narrow it down to whether or not there was a witness that saw them or was it based on something else that caused the courts to decide Paulus could not get any money for his troubles.

I really need this information.

09. COMPENSATION DENIED - DETENTION JUSTIFIED

Aruba Diario - 02-14-07
The whole case of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway gets a different twist now that the information has come out from no less than the Superior Court, and in which mention is made of the declarations of witnesses and a phone tap that show or give an indication that Paul van der Sloot had on two occasions personal contact with Natalee during the night that she disappeared. Mention is made that, according to one or more official reports of the phone tap and also the declaration of Paul van der Sloot himself, that Paul fetched Joran and Natalee at McDonald and took them to the Holiday Inn. Based on this information, the judicial authorities and the police had at that time a justified basis to arrest Paul van der Sloot based on different suspicions. Translation Credit: Diario Aruba

http://nataleesfreebirds.blogspot.com/2007/08/paulus-van-der-sloot.html

So there is not mention of a 4 AM time at all??? Just that Paulus claims to have picked up Joran and Natalee at the McDonald's.  Hmmmmm.  Now that is interesting...so how do we get this 4 AM at the ATM story?  Where did that come from??  Anyone??

[Lala'sMom]

how the hell can they say this ???
The investigation into the possible involvement of the Dutch national Joran van der Sloot in the disappearance of American student Natalee Holloway, at the end of this year.
It is the same mesaage as last year 

Good question!!