Natalee Case Discussion #770 9/20/08 - 10/04/08

[SS]

The dimensions of the crab trap can be found on Dr Hodges's website.  TES did build a matching trap so they would better understand of what they were searching for.  If I recall, the size of the trap from the fisherman's hut was about the size of a queen or king sized bed.

If I recall, the trap that was shown on the documentary for TV was not the same trap as the one where the actual human remains were found.  I think it was Kyle who pointed this out to us.  The pictures that were posted on the Internet of the skull were very upsetting to Kyle.  Those pictures had been intended for the FBI and a picture was released to Dave and Robin.  It was never intended that they were to be released to the general public.

Back around March, there was a lot of discussion about the size of the traps.  Someone will need to go back and check this, but I think the trap with the remains was a larger trap than the one missing from the huts.  There was much discussion as to where the larger size trap would have come from.  Kyle suggested that we try to find out who was missing a large trap.  I could be very wrong, but I don't think the missing trap from the huts is the same trap that held the remains that were found.  It was also discussed that the larger trap could have been placed at the location where TES found it as a kind of "post office" for drugs that were moved into Aruba.  The remains found in the trap could have been a drug dealer who made someone mad.

[Ree]

Does anyone remember where we got the 4 AM ATM story?  Is it credible?  TIA

The first time I heard 4AM was Beth stating that Paulus told them he picked Joran up at 4AM the night Natalee disappeared.  There was also a news article that came out after Paulus was denied his money.  I think I remember something in there confirming that witnesses verified what Beth stated.  I don't think it was the same one referenced with the two contacts, but I'll see what I can find.

Thank you.  I would love to see the news article that says 4 AM.

This isn't the original yet, but I found this at BFN

Superior Court decided that there was a reason to have Mr. Paul v/d Sloot arrested

Posted by MF at FOB
http://www.freedomofblog.com/forum29/4110.html

Contrary to the first decision in Court, the Supreme Court decided that the amount given to v/d Sloot was not deserved since there was a reason that he was arrested initially.

The Supreme Court based their decision on the fact that there were two people that from a distance (sitting in a car) heard that Paul v/d Sloot told the Police Officers at his house that he did pick-up Joran at McDonald at 4.00 a.m., even though these witnesses do not understand Papiamento nor Dutch and the two Police Officers on the scene and other multilingual witnesses that were talking to Paul v/d Sloot denied that he ever said that.

So on technicality, based on those statements that we now know that were lies, the Prosecutor acted and had mr. Paul v/d Sloot arrested and this was justified at that time and so, the damages awarded were not deserved, according to the Supreme Court decision.

Since the Supreme Court cannot be appealed, mr Swaen, lawyer for the defended that has been cleared in the case, is contemplating going to the European Court, since the Supreme Court based their decision on a lie.

[SS]

Does anyone besides me think that it is absurd for a kid who reported that he sneaked out of the house that night, but then called his father to pick him up with a girl at 4:00 AM, when he was due in school within a few hours?

[Ree]

I found a reference that LaLa's is looking for where an Aruban says Paulus picked Joran up at 4AM, but I don't know how to bring it here.  Can sombody help me?  It's here.

   Lively Case Discussion #582 2/10 - 2/15/2007
« Reply #675 on: February 14, 2007, 01:29:40 PM »

Careful, there's lot's of Robots back there.  It'll make you sad.

[Dayhiker]

I think it's photoshopped:

Great work Klaas. Also, if you look at the left side of his head just above the ear you can see the hard edge of the cut-out layer.

My question is, who the hell is trying to convince us this is Joran and why?

[Dayhiker]

Does anyone besides me think that it is absurd for a kid who reported that he sneaked out of the house that night, but then called his father to pick him up with a girl at 4:00 AM, when he was due in school within a few hours?

Yep!

[Dayhiker]

imo, this announcement every year is to placate the tourism business about their high season.  it's a talking point to assure everyone that aruba's finest is still hard at work trying to solve the case and put j2k in jail where they belong.
dennisintn

Certainly doesn't jibe with the supposed September Surprise. If the shitheads in the OM department even know about it.

Hans "Dickhead" Mos says he has seen no evidence of a cover-up and blames the family and US media for screwing up the case.

[SS]

 Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #752 5-15-08  on: May 16, 2008, 08:59:01 AM

I'll try to clarify a few points. Nice pics by the way.
- The pond was searched because of a promising lead we received. 
- We were able to conduct the scanning sonar (not to be confused with side scan sonar) search of the pond because of some weather related down time during the ocean search. 
- My analysis of the sonar was used to 1) show that the pond needed to be drained in opposed to be investigated with divers.  The only way to effectively search the pond would be if it were dry. 2) show that there were objects in the pond aside from tires.  I'm not commenting on what these objects could be because I'm not speculating.  I will say that I at least saw tires (I saw a pic of one somewhere) in the scanning sonar.
- The reason the pond search was so delayed was on account of the labor strike.  The pond needed to be completely drained which needed the help of the Polis and fire department.  Needless to say labor was needed and hard to come by.  When the strike ended the pond search happened almost immediately.
- No one said the 40-52 (whatever) investigators from Holland ever stepped foot in or near the pond.  The timing is coincident.  Did anyone see these investigators anywhere near the pond?  I don't think so.     

I hope that cleared up more questions that it raises.

******************************************************************

I found this post by OE when I was searching for information about the lobster cage.  Several months later, part of this post has jumped out at me.  I might be reading this wrong, but it appears to me that Kyle is saying that the Dutch forensic team were not the ones who drained the pond and searched it.  If they didn't do it, who did???  FBI? TES? ALE?  Who has the evidence that was recovered in this search?

We were told that the search team were there at night with all of the lights on from the soccer field.  My new question is...who searched the pond?

[Dayhiker]

dugo's translation of the Dutch legal form (not Paulus's lawyers interpretation):

dugo  Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:47 pm
Translating Dutch legalese is a bitch, here is a dugofish version.

Paying attention to the deceitful declaration the son of Paulus, Johan A. P. van de Sloot (hereafter Joran), initially made about his last contact with the on May 30th missing Natalee Holloway the suspicion was not unreasonable that he made himself guilty towards her of behaviour that might be classified as murder, manslaughter or theft of freedom with death as result.

The possible involvement of Paulus in this could, at that time, be inferred from the the PVs of witness declarations in the file of which two suggest personal contact between Paulus and Natalee Holloway in the night of her disappearance and a wiretap report (which are shown by the temporary attorney general in end note 1 of the note handed over at session of the court).

The wiretap report and his declaration that he picked up Joran and Natalee at McDonalds Palm Beach and brought them to Holiday Inn were clearly seen by the prosecution office - and could have been seen so according to judgment of the court - as an indication of involvement of Paulus in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.



doc wrote:
Thanks dugo - that is fairly close to what SM's translation says. Lazlo says that is not the actual court ruling though. Did you see the article she posted?

dugo  Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:54 pm
The only clue of the origins is that this is clearly written by a court. Looks like a snippet.

No 4am, but there could be more.

Thanks Buckeye, hadn't seen this translation. Guess this pretty much exposed him to his fellow judges as a lying sone of a bitch, but then they probably already knew that because they're all lying son of a bitches.

[bastibro]

I think it's photoshopped:

Great work Klaas. Also, if you look at the left side of his head just above the ear you can see the hard edge of the cut-out layer.

My question is, who the hell is trying to convince us this is Joran and why?

Somebody tries to make him look good.
Anybody knows where it came from?

[SS]

Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #752 5-15-08  on: May 15, 2008, 07:31:03 PM 

Oceanexploration

Honestly it's hard to answer that question without mixing facts with speculation.  If you want my opinion for whatever it's worth, here it is.

From the beginning, the case was made very public and the cover-up started almost immediately, presumably to protect the tourism interests of the Island, if nothing else. The Persistence search was something of a turning point in the case in the way it was being handled.  Most people involved in the investigation from the beginning were replaced with others who are being heavily scrutinized to avoid further problems. 
If this case were being handled properly we should hear nothing until there were arrests.  All evidence and the investigation should be kept completely quiet until all the pieces are in place to make a proper arrest and charge all of the people involved.  I have good reason to believe this case is being handled better than before the Persistence search. 

- The investigative team is extensive and qualified from my understanding, though I am not in contact with them. 
- The Polis has spent something on the order of half their annual budget already just working on the Holloway case. 
- I know at least 40 investigators were brought in from Holland in regards to the investigation, though Caps quotes 52.  52 or 40, I don't know but it's a lot of man power for a case recently reopened from a cold-case IMO. 
- Samples collected from the trap were sent to the FBI for analysis and they won't comment on the case at all. 
- The Monserat pond was searched after it was pumped dry.  No one is commenting on the pond search.
I trust most of the people now leading the investigation.  That's difficult to say across the boards, but I do trust most.  If the investigation is active and moving forward, I would expect silence and results over time.  How much time?  I wouldn't expect to hear anything by at least September but this is only a guess.  The fact that there is silence is either incouraging or discouraging depending on how you look at it.  If you're an optimist, silence means the investigation is proceeding carefully and quietly which is good.  If you're a pessimist, the silence means nothing is happening and the waiting will highly frustrate you.

Personally, I think it's a coin flip but am optimistic that at least the investigation into the investigation will be handled fully.



OK, we have at least two sources telling us that 40-50 foresenics people were brought in from Holland to search the pond.  But, the Dutch didn't search the pond?  Something doesn't make sense, based on what we have been led to believe.

[SS]

From Oceanexplorer...

21   Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #751 5/8 -  on: May 14, 2008, 01:26:56 PM 
Greetings,

I'm sure you've already heard, but the pond is ropped off and now dry.  40 investigators from Holland were brought in related to the case.  No word on the outcome yet.   
All the best
************************

If they didn't search the pond, who did?

[bastibro]

Here is what Beth said on Greta>>>>
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: I think I just saw specific little details that just have started eating me alive just, I mean, from details of that first night, when we met Joran and Paul and Deepak, you know, just little details that have been eating away at me on this pick-up time at McDonald's, you know, Paul van der Sloot stated specifically and emphatically he picked them up at 4 a.m. I have it documented in my journal too many times to know that...

VAN SUSTEREN: At 11 p.m.?

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: No, he told us 4 a.m.

GEORGE "JUG" TWITTY: To start with.

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: To start with. And then, you know, I noticed when you and I went to his home, do you know that was the first time that he had ever changed it to 11 p.m.?

VAN SUSTEREN: But before then, it had been 4 a.m., but then with us, it's 11 p.m.

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Yes, 4 a.m. on May 31, he stated — I documented in my journal — that he stated to the police spokesperson that he picked Joran up at 4 a.m. Again, on June 17, I have it documented in my journal that they were going to question Paul that day about the 4 a.m. pick-up. And then it changed. That's why I was so shocked that day that you and I went to his home. That was the first time that he had changed to it 11 p.m., to the 29th. So that's just one example of many little details that are just driving me crazy now that I'm back home.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,164506,00.html

will see if I can find it in any 'news' report

i`ve put it on youtube                   http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=_LgqlWqn3ys
Have fun watching the Emmy`s .
I`m going to see my own Emmy`s, in my dreams
Sleep tight

[texasmom]

Thanks Bastibro!  I hope you have a good night and rest well!

 

[SS]

  Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -  on: March 19, 2008, 10:36:39 PM

Oceanexplorer...

I'll do the best I can...
- The samples were recovered by Aruban divers on the 7th of Jan.  These samples include a fabric found inside the trap which was sent for a comparative analysis to the FBI.  However, the samples were also reportedly DNA tested. I heard there were remains from a source, who likely referred to DNA as remains, as he said there was DNA found.  However, it's rather ambiguous to me, but the take home message from the FBI is simply: they're not commenting on the case and the fabric wasn't Natalee's blouse.  I'm unaware of any bone found.
Hope that helps some. 


Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -  on: March 19, 2008, 03:27:10 PM

It's possible to have been 10 years or so.  I don't know for certain and don't have any way to readily test this. The trap was somewhat intact.  It's north side was in poor shape, with significant deterioration of it's northern panels.  The trap's doop is usually fastened to the outside of the trap.  It was laying inside the trap, as if pushed open. The contents sampled inside the trap were laying on top of the door.  The trap was found in 90 ft.

 Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -  on: March 19, 2008, 03:21:31 PM

After the Jan 7th dive, I was scheduled to take a short break on land, staying at the Holiday Inn between Jan 9th and returning to the Persistence on Jan 14th.  I had been working steadily since Dec 15th and needed a break.  It was a coincidence I was around to be walking the beach to observe what I saw with the vessel at or near the site on the 11th and 12th of Jan.  I don't know for certain if there is anything to it.  When asked if they were diving the site, they replied: "we don't have dive capabilities". 

If samples from the trap were recovered by ALE divers on January 7th, then what was the coast guard ship that OE saw doing at the site on January 14th?  This was a week after the contents of the trapped were recovered.


Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -  on: March 18, 2008, 03:04:38 PM

The "99.9%" came independantly from Tim Miller to Dave H. on Dec 29th, prior to the diver visual inspection of the trap.   I can't imagine what that must have felt like to be told and then completely retracted the next day.  I couldn't believe the information was prematurely leaked to the family before we knew what we were looking at.  My heart broke for Dave and Beth.

Personally, I fed off of Tim's inflated confidence and my own on the night of Dec 29th.  I did not sleep. Few of us did. The only person able to remain completely objective, much to his credit, was John Silvetti.  In hindsight, I am in awe of him for his wisdom(from past hard experiences) and strength. At the time, I thought he was nuts for not siding with the rest of us after the first dive. It was a crushing dissapointment the evening of Dec 30th, but not over.  The tactile inspection dive was coming. Dec 30th, 2007 will forever stand in my mind as one of the hardest single days of my life.

This was one week before the contents of the cage were recovered by ALE on January 7th.


 Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -  on: March 18, 2008, 02:34:39 PM

Oceanexploration responding to questions from SS...

I have a few questions.
1) If the FBI at Quantico tested the fabric that was found in the trap, how did they get it?  It sounds like the Dutch got their hands on the trap contents as you stood on the beach and watched.  You must have just wanted to scream when you figured out what was obviously going on.
- the "samples" were sent to the FBI by Richardson by his own admission (2nd hand info).
- I cannot confirm nor deny the Dutch doing anything with the site.  From my best estimate, it appeared they were on the site.  I have no other reason to base this theory on.  It's not as obvious as it sounds paraphrased.  I think it's a coin flip.


2) Can we assume that the Dutch have the real goods and the FBI just has the fabric?
- I have no idea.  I have no reason to assume or speculate on this. 

3) Is it possible that possibly very detailed DNA tests are being done on whatever was found and that no statements have been made because of the blunders in the past three years?
- I don't know.  The only thing I know is from the report that said no DNA match to Natalee in the fabric and the fabric wasn't a match to her blouse.
4) Do you have any idea who might own a fish trap that size?
-I don't know which is why I raised the question earlier.

5) Are there any other important people who have disappeared from Aruba who could be in that trap?
-I don't have a clue. It's still possible there wasn't anyone ever in the trap.  This appears to have been and remains the official stance.

6) Do you think that it's possible there might be additional fish traps among the remaining sites that you need to inspect.
-I can't comment on this because we need to inspect the targets.  This is largely the point of inspection.

7) Could Dutch/Aruban interference be the reason why Persistence left so suddenly?
- I have no reason to suspect this.  We didn't leave so suddenly.  We were there since December 15th and left over two months later.  This is hardly sudden.

You must be very frustrated by what is now going on with the contents of the trap.
- I don't know what now is going on with the contents of the trap, if anything.  It's hard to know what to think or feel.

You went to Aruba with a very heroic motive and you put out a lot of work. I am more than concerned if information is being withheld or if Natalee's recovery has been sabotaged by the Dutch or Arubans.
-sometimes information being withheld is a good thing and necessary for the sake of the case.  The only solid base for witholding info is from our FBI who say they're not commenting on the case.  This however, is nothing new and neither bad nor good.  It means nothing.  I have no reason to suspect sabotage by anyone.

 I am also terribly disappointed in even thinking about imagining that Tim Miller would cave into the Dutch or the Aruban ALE.


Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -  on: March 18, 2008, 12:22:38 PM

On the issue of Trap recovery:

-After the visual inspection on 30-Dec, the initial plan discussed by the project leads and Aruban police was for us (the team on board the Persistence) to be directly involved in the recovery of the trap.  There were talks about getting the proper equipment on board the Persistence such as a suction-recovery system to sift small items from the sand.  The talks continued after Jan-7th when the samples were collected.
-Just after the 30th of Dec we were told it would take about 10-14 days to bring in a Dutch team capable of processing an underwater site. 

-Jan 9th through 13th I was off the boat and staying at the Holiday Inn for a much-needed break.  I walked up and down the beach many times a day. On the 11th and 12th, I noticed the Dutch coast guard vessel at or VERY near the trap site.   I talked to a wind surfer instructor who claims to be at the beach every day for 8 years.  He said the boat always comes up the shore just south of where we were standing, turns away and heads offshore.  He said it never goes where it was and has never seen it stop.
The vessel was on that spot for 42 minutes that day and about the same duration the next day.  I triangulated it's position the best I could using a wrist watch and a few points on land.  It was right on the target location based on the measurements.

-When I returned to the Persistence (14-Jan) there were no more talks about a trap recovery.  When I pressed the issue, I was told "they're no longer interested in the trap or it's recovery".
-I raised the issue again in early February and the response was the same - no interest about the trap and no plans to recover.

I assume one of three scenarios: 1) They genuinely aren't interested in the trap, 2) They are/were interested and will take care of it themselves (or have already done so) and don't want us informed or involved, or 3) They already recovered the trap (or processed the site) and don't want us to know for whatever reason, good or otherwise.

It definitely appears that the contents of the trap were removed by ALE prior to the Dutch Coast Guard ship arriving at the site.


Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -  on: March 18, 2008, 11:32:30 AM

Oceanexplorer is answering questions from Buckeye...

This trap could not have "fallen" from a commercial fishing ship ( such as a shipped docked for repairs, etc.) because of the depth and location.
- Falling is highly unlikely given it's location and condition.

This trap was not lowered by crane, or whatever because it wasn't situated in a position that demonstrated "lowering", unless one end was really weighted down? I would think the ropes etc, to the crane would level it?
-Lowering by a windlass or winch would not explain the impact depression from one corner of the trap.  If it were leveled, one would assume it would fall level.  This is further supported because the 4-point rigging was still on the trap.

Do the restaurants that sell shrimp and spiny lobsters have fishermen that use these traps?  I thought the fishermen docked by the HI.
-This is a different type commercial fish trap used (to my knowledge) in deep water for grouper, snapper, etc
I would think, a trap that size would have to be loaded by the Container Harbor (where Jaime worked). Is there an Aruban commercial fisherman located at The Container Harbor?
-I didn't see any fishing boats at the port facility the entire time I was there.

The belief is that the trap has not been disturbed since it's original placement (which looks to be about when?).
- Unknown, see previous post about the timing and duration

I believe in your scientific mind...so there must be something to all this...or I believe you would have dropped the idea about "this" trap.
- I believe the story of the trap is far from over despite Mos's press release. The other project leads feel it's best to forget about the trap and "move on" mainly for operational reasons (to focus on what may still be out there), also lack of immediate answers about the trap.  Keep in mind our tight time and financial constraints. I support their position.  It's certainly wise.
- However, I'm personally split three ways about the trap.  Not all the project leads feel as I do, but of course all the people involved in the search have highly varied levels of exposure and information particularly in relation to the trap.   

The trap was obviously a commercial fishing trap and larger than the one which had been behind the fisherman's huts.

 Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -  on: March 18, 2008, 10:21:41 AM

We've internally discussed the possibility of a "post office" of sorts while awaiting forensic testing results. 
The problems with this theory include: 
-little or no evident anchor scars from a boat or boats at or anywhere near the site which would support diving ops.
-The trap shows no apparent evidence of human tampering one would expect from in situ placement and removal of objects inside the trap. The sand inside the trap shows no disruption.  The soft growth on the trap shows no obvious scars, where something scrapes or slides on the trap during a placement or withdrawal.

The potential issues of a Venezuelan fishing vessel passing through:
- The location of the trap is significantly out of the way for passing through vessels. 
- The location of the trap is not in an area where fishermen fish with commercial traps.
- There are no significant near by seabed obstructions which the trap would have gotten hung-up on to explain it's loss.
- The trap is only in 90ft of water, which makes it easily recoverable by divers if accidentally lost.
Other notes:
- The location is in the lee of the island, which makes the location somewhat weather protected and therefore less likely to have been lost during a storm.
- The trap appears to be in it's original location, as evident by an impact depression in the seabed clearly seen in the sonar.
-It appears the trap hit the bottom very hard as in a free fall.  One corner hit just before the others and the trap seemingly "bounced" a few feet and remained in its current position and orientation.   

 Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -  on: March 18, 2008, 09:28:45 AM

I learned from a source that there is only one place/person(?) on Aruba where a large commercial fish trap would have originated.  This should make it a reasonable venture figuring out who's trap we found.  The next logical move would be after finding them, asking them to explain their missing trap.  1) How did they lose it  2) why was it lost where it was 3) what were it's contents when it was "lost" and 3) what boat was used to transport the trap.

Any ideas of who may have possessed such a trap?
Approx. 7.5 x 7.5 x 2.5ft, and 200-300lbs, hundreds of feet of rope complete with 4-point rigging. 

Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #740 3/5 -  on: March 07, 2008, 10:40:46 AM

As far as the beak-in at the huts:
As I see it there are two possibilities.  First, the fish huts were actually broken into and therefore likely related to the case. Alternatively, the door was kicked in by the Police during the search within a couple days of Natalee's dissapearance and a lovely new knife taken in the process. 
In either case, a trap, a sneaker, and a girl went missing. 

Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #740 3/5 -  on: March 07, 2008, 09:41:07 AM

As you already know, the trap dimensions you are familiar with came from Dr. Hodges.  To my knowledge, he did not speak with the fisherman who owned the hut which was broken into.  He spoke with the owner of the fishermans huts. 
Not that it is of any consequence, because the fisherman who leases the hut which was broken into 1) doesn't speak a lick of English 2) likely fishes mainly at night and 3) the trap likely didn't belong to the fisherman who's hut was broken into.  I walked by the huts about 5-6 times a day for 4 straight days during the time of day Hodges went to the Huts to learn as much as possible. I didn't encounter that fisherman once.  However, I spoke to the fisherman next to the one that was broken into who was often sitting out front of his hut.  He could only say hello in English. 

Regardless of the questionable applicability of the information, we decided to use the dimensions Dr. Hodges provided to serve as a baseline or minimum sonar target.

As for the trap being the one that was reportedly next to the fisherman's huts...I honestly don't know and can't prove that it is or isn't at this point.  I believe early on Dompig referred to the fish trap as being HUGE at one point.  A 5'x 4' trap hardly qualifies as huge

It looks like the trap from the fishermen was not the same trap that was located by TES.  ALE took the contents of the cage a week before the Dytch Coast Guard appeared on the scene.  ALE reported that the contents of the trap were sent to the FBI.  Is the FBI more involved in this case than we realize?  Did the FBI also search the pond?

[Lala'sMom]

Thanks to everyone that has been searching for the 4 AM statement...so far there is only the family saying that Paulus said 4 AM.  I certainly believe the family...but I do not think that the reason they told Paulus to take a hike was due to a statement by the family.  There has to be more than this. 

Is there a bank with an ATM near the McDonalds???
Was it 3 AM or 4AM? 

As far as I can tell the courts denied Paulus on the basis of someone placing Paulus in contact with Natalee at least 2 times on the night in question and the fact that something was picked up on wiretaps concerning Paulus being at the McDonalds. HMMMM.

[Lala'sMom]

- No one said the 40-52 (whatever) investigators from Holland ever stepped foot in or near the pond.  The timing is coincident.  Did anyone see these investigators anywhere near the pond?  I don't think so.     


- I know at least 40 investigators were brought in from Holland in regards to the investigation, though Caps quotes 52.  52 or 40, I don't know but it's a lot of man power for a case recently reopened from a cold-case IMO. 

I'm sure you've already heard, but the pond is ropped off and now dry.  40 investigators from Holland were brought in related to the case.  No word on the outcome yet.   


OK...so tell me...which is it...were they there or not?  Can't have it both ways...at least not without an explanation of the contradictions.

[Lala'sMom]

Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #752 5-15-08  on: May 16, 2008, 08:59:01 AM

I'll try to clarify a few points. Nice pics by the way.
- The pond was searched because of a promising lead we received. 
- We were able to conduct the scanning sonar (not to be confused with side scan sonar) search of the pond because of some weather related down time during the ocean search. 
- My analysis of the sonar was used to 1) show that the pond needed to be drained in opposed to be investigated with divers.  The only way to effectively search the pond would be if it were dry. 2) show that there were objects in the pond aside from tires.  I'm not commenting on what these objects could be because I'm not speculating.  I will say that I at least saw tires (I saw a pic of one somewhere) in the scanning sonar.
- The reason the pond search was so delayed was on account of the labor strike.  The pond needed to be completely drained which needed the help of the Polis and fire department.  Needless to say labor was needed and hard to come by.  When the strike ended the pond search happened almost immediately.
- No one said the 40-52 (whatever) investigators from Holland ever stepped foot in or near the pond.  The timing is coincident.  Did anyone see these investigators anywhere near the pond?  I don't think so.     

I hope that cleared up more questions that it raises.

******************************************************************

I found this post by OE when I was searching for information about the lobster cage.  Several months later, part of this post has jumped out at me.  I might be reading this wrong, but it appears to me that Kyle is saying that the Dutch forensic team were not the ones who drained the pond and searched it.  If they didn't do it, who did???  FBI? TES? ALE?  Who has the evidence that was recovered in this search?

We were told that the search team were there at night with all of the lights on from the soccer field.  My new question is...who searched the pond?

Now, do you see why I spend so much time doing this?

[SS]

- No one said the 40-52 (whatever) investigators from Holland ever stepped foot in or near the pond.  The timing is coincident.  Did anyone see these investigators anywhere near the pond?  I don't think so.     


- I know at least 40 investigators were brought in from Holland in regards to the investigation, though Caps quotes 52.  52 or 40, I don't know but it's a lot of man power for a case recently reopened from a cold-case IMO. 

I'm sure you've already heard, but the pond is ropped off and now dry.  40 investigators from Holland were brought in related to the case.  No word on the outcome yet.   


OK...so tell me...which is it...were they there or not?  Can't have it both ways...at least not without an explanation of the contradictions.

I agree Lala's and to me this is huge.  We have been under the impression that the Dutch took the contents of the cage and investigated the pond.  Apparently this isn't correct.  That leaves only ALE, TES, or the FBI as far as I can see it.  Something has to be going on that we aren't aware of.  Who has all of this evidence? 

[LoRain]

Does anyone besides me think that it is absurd for a kid who reported that he sneaked out of the house that night, but then called his father to pick him up with a girl at 4:00 AM, when he was due in school within a few hours?

Perhaps the trouble he was in at the moment he called for his dad was much bigger than sneaking out on a school nite.....