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Author Topic: Lively Case Discussion #523a 9/12 - 9/15/2006 (use this one)  (Read 115070 times)
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thirdstrike
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« Reply #420 on: September 14, 2006, 05:16:32 PM »

Quote from: "San"
Quote from: "thirdstrike"
Maybe someone can answer this for me...

Is the "film circulating" theory actual fact (I mean, has it been proven real), or is it Aruban "urban legend" as some of the alleged evidence in this case.

Just curious...

Geraldo Rivera was told about the film from a very good source on the island.


So "officially", it's only a rumor.  Probably true, but a rumor none-the-less.  Is that fair to say San?
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San
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« Reply #421 on: September 14, 2006, 05:21:31 PM »

Quote from: "thirdstrike"
Quote from: "San"
Quote from: "thirdstrike"
Maybe someone can answer this for me...

Is the "film circulating" theory actual fact (I mean, has it been proven real), or is it Aruban "urban legend" as some of the alleged evidence in this case.

Just curious...

Geraldo Rivera was told about the film from a very good source on the island.


So "officially", it's only a rumor.  Probably true, but a rumor none-the-less.  Is that fair to say San?

The only thing I remember Geraldo saying on TV that there was a film circulating on the island.  I don't know if he has seen the film or his source has the film.  So if you want to believe it is a rumor that is your right.  I believe Geraldo.
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« Reply #422 on: September 14, 2006, 05:26:03 PM »

Quote from: "mrs. red"
Katz it is hard to believe that anyone films a rape.. but then again we see it happening in the class room on the island...


Hi Mrs. Red.

I spent some time this morning looking at the Interpol site and many other crime related sites and it looks like filming rapes and child abuse of all kinds is the up and coming enterprise in the Caribbean as well as other parts of the world.  It is just unbelievable and horrible.
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thirdstrike
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« Reply #423 on: September 14, 2006, 05:28:13 PM »

Quote from: "San"
Quote from: "thirdstrike"
Quote from: "San"
Quote from: "thirdstrike"
Maybe someone can answer this for me...

Is the "film circulating" theory actual fact (I mean, has it been proven real), or is it Aruban "urban legend" as some of the alleged evidence in this case.

Just curious...

Geraldo Rivera was told about the film from a very good source on the island.


So "officially", it's only a rumor.  Probably true, but a rumor none-the-less.  Is that fair to say San?

The only thing I remember Geraldo saying on TV that there was a film circulating on the island.  I don't know if he has seen the film or his source has the film.  So if you want to believe it is a rumor that is your right.  I believe Geraldo.


I do remember hearing it from Geraldo on O'Reilly's show.  But, he did state it was reported...not that he was the one reporting it.  So, Geraldo's had not seen it, but was rather told of it's existence.  Is that correct?

The point I'm trying to make is sometimes when rumor is mistaken for fact, it can divert belief...which often times alters fact...which in turn compromises what has actually been established as true, tangible evidence.  I think sometimes people tend to give the intelligence of the main suspects in this case far too much credit by way of complexities in their involvement.  Most times less is more...

Again, simply my opinion...popular or otherwise...
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KatzHome
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« Reply #424 on: September 14, 2006, 05:33:37 PM »

Quote from: "San"
Katz I think the girl was younger than 16 I could be wrong.

I agree that the girl could have been baiting us.  But after Klaas posted her photo and link to her site and everyone clicked on the photos she must have realized what damage she did to herself in having those photos there.  I cannot believe she would be proud of something like that.  Shame on her.


Yeah ~ I don't know how old the girl was...  well...  I'm tall...  and kinda quiet...  when I was 13, I was hanging out with people 17...  and sometimes older...  so I can see how that filming could happen...  untrustworthy "friend" that girl had...

But, as far as the other...  what Joran's "new girlfriend" had up on her site...  thatstuff is sick...  and if that's something they're into ~ you'd think they'd be ashamed of themselves....  instead of broadcasting it...
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KatzHome
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« Reply #425 on: September 14, 2006, 05:37:08 PM »

Quote from: "thirdstrike"
Hello everyone!!  Back from lunch...

Are we still discussing the "depths of involvement" theories??


Welcome back Strike!  I JUST finished!!!  My back is aching from bending over peering at the screen, retouching to get the crease marks out of the picture...

Not sure what's being talked about ~ I'm just surfacing again!  Phew!  Embarassed
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thirdstrike
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« Reply #426 on: September 14, 2006, 05:40:34 PM »

Quote from: "KatzHome"
Quote from: "thirdstrike"
Hello everyone!!  Back from lunch...

Are we still discussing the "depths of involvement" theories??


Welcome back Strike!  I JUST finished!!!  My back is aching from bending over peering at the screen, retouching to get the crease marks out of the picture...

Not sure what's being talked about ~ I'm just surfacing again!  Phew!  Embarassed


Hey Katz!!  Welcome back yourself...

I believe we were discussing the "depth of involvement" issue again.  I was arguing (peacefully, of course) that sometimes less is more, where as others were stating that they believe this case is more complex then that (mostly involving the possibility of the act being filmed)...
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San
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« Reply #427 on: September 14, 2006, 05:41:52 PM »

Quote from: "thirdstrike"
Quote from: "San"
Quote from: "thirdstrike"
Quote from: "San"
Quote from: "thirdstrike"
Maybe someone can answer this for me...

Is the "film circulating" theory actual fact (I mean, has it been proven real), or is it Aruban "urban legend" as some of the alleged evidence in this case.

Just curious...

Geraldo Rivera was told about the film from a very good source on the island.


So "officially", it's only a rumor.  Probably true, but a rumor none-the-less.  Is that fair to say San?

The only thing I remember Geraldo saying on TV that there was a film circulating on the island.  I don't know if he has seen the film or his source has the film.  So if you want to believe it is a rumor that is your right.  I believe Geraldo.


I do remember hearing it from Geraldo on O'Reilly's show.  But, he did state it was reported...not that he was the one reporting it.  So, Geraldo's had not seen it, but was rather told of it's existence.  Is that correct?

The point I'm trying to make is sometimes when rumor is mistaken for fact, it can divert belief...which often times alters fact...which in turn compromises what has actually been established as true, tangible evidence.  I think sometimes people tend to give the intelligence of the main suspects in this case far too much credit by way of complexities in their involvement.  Most times less is more...

Again, simply my opinion...popular or otherwise...


I am not sure which show Geraldo reported this on.  At the time Geraldo had his own show on Fox and he is the one who told Beth about Joran going to therapy for anger problems.

I do not give the suspects any credit for their intelligence and quite frankly I think they are quite stupid.  What gives these suspects credit for their intelligence is when you have grown men coaching them and altering their statements.  I'll give you a few names:

Paulus Van der Sloot - Judge in Training
Jan Van der Straaten - Chief of Police
Dennis Jacobs - Narcotics Detective
David Kock - Joran's Lawyer
Rudy Croes - Justice Minister
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KatzHome
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« Reply #428 on: September 14, 2006, 05:45:33 PM »

Quote from: "thirdstrike"
Quote from: "San"
Quote from: "thirdstrike"
Quote from: "San"
Quote from: "thirdstrike"
Maybe someone can answer this for me...

Is the "film circulating" theory actual fact (I mean, has it been proven real), or is it Aruban "urban legend" as some of the alleged evidence in this case.

Just curious...

Geraldo Rivera was told about the film from a very good source on the island.


So "officially", it's only a rumor.  Probably true, but a rumor none-the-less.  Is that fair to say San?

The only thing I remember Geraldo saying on TV that there was a film circulating on the island.  I don't know if he has seen the film or his source has the film.  So if you want to believe it is a rumor that is your right.  I believe Geraldo.


I do remember hearing it from Geraldo on O'Reilly's show.  But, he did state it was reported...not that he was the one reporting it.  So, Geraldo's had not seen it, but was rather told of it's existence.  Is that correct?

The point I'm trying to make is sometimes when rumor is mistaken for fact, it can divert belief...which often times alters fact...which in turn compromises what has actually been established as true, tangible evidence.  I think sometimes people tend to give the intelligence of the main suspects in this case far too much credit by way of complexities in their involvement.  Most times less is more...

Again, simply my opinion...popular or otherwise...


I see what you're saying, Strike...

One thing ~ discussing "rumor" again ~ because Geraldo never actually said that he "saw" that film ~ though I do believe that there is such a film ~ is ...

Maybe she is one of the girls who were going to come forward to ALE against Joran ~ but wound up not doing it...

Maybe because she agreed to make that film ~ or whatever ~ or wound up in it because of hanging out doing drugs with these guys and then couldn't stop what was happening....

Just a thought added to the "rumor"....
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thirdstrike
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« Reply #429 on: September 14, 2006, 05:48:54 PM »

Quote from: "San"
I am not sure which show Geraldo reported this on.  At the time Geraldo had his own show on Fox and he is the one who told Beth about Joran going to therapy for anger problems.

I do not give the suspects any credit for their intelligence and quite frankly I think they are quite stupid.  What gives these suspects credit for their intelligence is when you have grown men coaching them and altering their statements.  I'll give you a few names:

Paulus Van der Sloot - Judge in Training
Jan Van der Straaten - Chief of Police
Dennis Jacobs - Narcotics Detective
David Kock - Joran's Lawyer
Rudy Croes - Justice Minister


I agree with you San.  But, this is not unlike ANY criminal investigations done here in the US (using your clarification above).  All suspects are "coached" by their lawyers.  It's their legal right to be.  But, as you said...it's not very ethical to recive that coaching from members of the agencies in which you are being investigated.  That defeats the wntire purpose of the investigation itself...

I guess like I said earlier...I'm more of a "black & white" type of thinker when it comes to things like this.  Not too big on mass conspiracy theories, as it seems to soemtiems take the focus away from where it should have been placed from day one. Is this case complex??  Sure it is.  But, my beilefs are that they became complex after the fact.  The act itself is very simple to figure out, IMO...
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« Reply #430 on: September 14, 2006, 05:54:34 PM »

I don't tend to conspiracy theories too readily either, but things like the following point to more than just a few lies by a few players.  Remember when Dompig made a big point of how they were monitoring all those boats the night Natalee disappeared?

"Boats On Parade In Aruba


By Meri Ulrich
Mar. 31, 2006

During his little show on "48 Hours", Gerald Dompig showed the audience some computer screens that are housed at the police department where he conducts his business. We saw boats being tracked and he claimed that those were the boats that were tracked on the night that Natalee Holloway disappeared. He showed that every single boat that came and went out of Aruba on that fateful night was tracked on that screen.
 
He lied.
 
On May 30th, 2005, Aruba had NO working tracking system in place. It didn't exist.
 
Raytheon Canada to Install Coastal Surveillance Radars in Dutch Caribbean
Posted 30-Nov-2005 03:10
Related stories: Americas - Other, Coastal & Littoral, Contracts - Awards, Europe - Other, Radars, Raytheon
Also on this day: 30-Nov-2005 »
 
Raytheon Canada won a contract valued at approximately $12 million (EUR 10 million) from the Royal Netherlands Navy and the Coast Guard of the Netherlands Antilles & Aruba (CGNA&A) to build an integrated coastal surveillance radar network on the islands of Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao, including long-term maintenance and training.

With respect to the system's purpose, and setup...

 
Ahh, Bonaire...
The system will enable the precision monitoring of marine traffic in the waters around the Dutch Caribbean. It will be used primarily for search and rescue and drug interdiction, but it will also help combat illegal immigration.

The baseline system consists of eight radar sites equipped with a single command and control center based at the CGNA&A's rescue and coordination center in Curacao. Each site is composed of a Raytheon Canada Marine Small Target Tracker, Terma SCANTER 2001 Radar from Terma of Denmark, plus wireless communications and physical infrastructure. The command and control center will be provided by HITT Traffic of The Netherlands.

 
SCANTER 2100
Though radars were not mentioned as a key component in Canada's aerospace strategy, Raytheon Canada has been an important Canadian player since the 1950s. The firm employs 1,400 people at multiple sites in Alberta, British Columbia, Nova Scotia and Ontario. Radar and traffic management systems make up a large portion of its offerings.

Please not the DATE of this article and you will see when the system was awarded to Raytheon. It was not installed back in May, 2005.

So what exactly did we see on Dompig's screen? Since the new system was not in place back in May, 2005 , we must have seen something a lot more recent then the night that Natalee disappeared. We saw those boats but they had nothing to do with the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

It was an impressive system that we were shown but we DID NOT see what happened on the night of May 30th, 2005 because the system didn't exist on Aruba on that night.

This should come as no surprise to anyone following this case because the Aruban authorities have become masters at spinning the truth to suit their own needs."
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KatzHome
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« Reply #431 on: September 14, 2006, 05:57:21 PM »

Quote from: "thirdstrike"
Quote from: "KatzHome"
Quote from: "thirdstrike"
Hello everyone!!  Back from lunch...

Are we still discussing the "depths of involvement" theories??


Welcome back Strike!  I JUST finished!!!  My back is aching from bending over peering at the screen, retouching to get the crease marks out of the picture...

Not sure what's being talked about ~ I'm just surfacing again!  Phew!  Embarassed


Hey Katz!!  Welcome back yourself...

I believe we were discussing the "depth of involvement" issue again.  I was arguing (peacefully, of course) that sometimes less is more, where as others were stating that they believe this case is more complex then that (mostly involving the possibility of the act being filmed)...


To me it looks like you're going for "What can be taken into court" type "black and white" evidence, Strike...  Wink and I can respect that!

Okies ~ email being sent in a few minutes ~ I stopped to make a sandwich...  lunchtime before shooting those photos...
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thirdstrike
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« Reply #432 on: September 14, 2006, 05:58:16 PM »

Quote from: "KatzHome"

I see what you're saying, Strike...

One thing ~ discussing "rumor" again ~ because Geraldo never actually said that he "saw" that film ~ though I do believe that there is such a film ~ is ...

Maybe she is one of the girls who were going to come forward to ALE against Joran ~ but wound up not doing it...

Maybe because she agreed to make that film ~ or whatever ~ or wound up in it because of hanging out doing drugs with these guys and then couldn't stop what was happening....

Just a thought added to the "rumor"....


I can understand that Katz!  It's just...logically, one would think it'd be unlikely that there would have been a film made documenting a crime in which you could be jailed for.  I mean, I can see them making a sex tape with all parties consenting (it's still morally wrong, but I've been around the block a few times.  This wouldn't shock me like it would others in here).  But, you'd have to be stuck on stupid to make one in which the participant is resisting.  To me, that dosn't seem logical...even for the likes of those knuckleheads...

It's one thing to make mistakes like this when comitting a crime if you hadn't had any prior experience.  First time crininals get caught all the time for reasons which could have been easily avoided if they had only paid attention to detail.  But, these guys were well schooled in the "art" of "pulling" intoxicated tourists from a bar at closing time.  IMO, they would be more likely then not to make sure there wasn't any documented evidence which could come back to bite them later...

Thoughts?
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Elaine
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« Reply #433 on: September 14, 2006, 05:58:42 PM »

Hello everyone!! That is an interesting find appeals!
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KatzHome
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« Reply #434 on: September 14, 2006, 06:00:25 PM »

I'm not so sure Dompig was involved in any of the cover-up...

In the beginning he sounded way too sincere about wanting to find and prosecute the killers...

And then he sound just too plain dumb ~ that I doubt the people that San listed would trust him...
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« Reply #435 on: September 14, 2006, 06:01:01 PM »

Hi all.  Just stopping to test new avatar...testing....
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« Reply #436 on: September 14, 2006, 06:02:00 PM »

Yea!  It worked!  Thanks Anna!

 Very Happy
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Elaine
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« Reply #437 on: September 14, 2006, 06:04:56 PM »

Quote from: "thirdstrike"
Quote from: "KatzHome"

I see what you're saying, Strike...

One thing ~ discussing "rumor" again ~ because Geraldo never actually said that he "saw" that film ~ though I do believe that there is such a film ~ is ...

Maybe she is one of the girls who were going to come forward to ALE against Joran ~ but wound up not doing it...

Maybe because she agreed to make that film ~ or whatever ~ or wound up in it because of hanging out doing drugs with these guys and then couldn't stop what was happening....

Just a thought added to the "rumor"....


I can understand that Katz!  It's just...logically, one would think it'd be unlikely that there would have been a film made documenting a crime in which you could be jailed for.  I mean, I can see them making a sex tape with all parties consenting (it's still morally wrong, but I've been around the block a few times.  This wouldn't shock me like it would others in here).  But, you'd have to be stuck on stupid to make one in which the participant is resisting.  To me, that dosn't seem logical...even for the likes of those knuckleheads...

It's one thing to make mistakes like this when comitting a crime if you hadn't had any prior experience.  First time crininals get caught all the time for reasons which could have been easily avoided if they had only paid attention to detail.  But, these guys were well schooled in the "art" of "pulling" intoxicated tourists from a bar at closing time.  IMO, they would be more likely then not to make sure there wasn't any documented evidence which could come back to bite them later...

Thoughts?
The only thought I can come up with on this matter, would be that they had given her a "date rape drug" and decided to film the sexual act, (not expecting her to die), hoping that she would have no memory of such event upon awakening....then, she goes home to the US, and the film gets distributed with no knowledge by the victom , that stuff has happened more than we would like to beleive
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Elaine
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« Reply #438 on: September 14, 2006, 06:07:01 PM »

Quote from: "tidycat"
Hi all.  Just stopping to test new avatar...testing....
Hiya ti Wink dy, that avatar is so cute and matches you screename perfectly!!
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Elaine
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« Reply #439 on: September 14, 2006, 06:08:35 PM »

Quote from: "Elaine"
Quote from: "thirdstrike"
Quote from: "KatzHome"

I see what you're saying, Strike...

One thing ~ discussing "rumor" again ~ because Geraldo never actually said that he "saw" that film ~ though I do believe that there is such a film ~ is ...

Maybe she is one of the girls who were going to come forward to ALE against Joran ~ but wound up not doing it...

Maybe because she agreed to make that film ~ or whatever ~ or wound up in it because of hanging out doing drugs with these guys and then couldn't stop what was happening....

Just a thought added to the "rumor"....


I can understand that Katz!  It's just...logically, one would think it'd be unlikely that there would have been a film made documenting a crime in which you could be jailed for.  I mean, I can see them making a sex tape with all parties consenting (it's still morally wrong, but I've been around the block a few times.  This wouldn't shock me like it would others in here).  But, you'd have to be stuck on stupid to make one in which the participant is resisting.  To me, that dosn't seem logical...even for the likes of those knuckleheads...

It's one thing to make mistakes like this when comitting a crime if you hadn't had any prior experience.  First time crininals get caught all the time for reasons which could have been easily avoided if they had only paid attention to detail.  But, these guys were well schooled in the "art" of "pulling" intoxicated tourists from a bar at closing time.  IMO, they would be more likely then not to make sure there wasn't any documented evidence which could come back to bite them later...

Thoughts?
The only thought I can come up with on this matter, would be that they had given her a "date rape drug" and decided to film the sexual act, (not expecting her to die), hoping that she would have no memory of such event upon awakening....then, she goes home to the US, and the film gets distributed with no knowledge by the victom , that stuff has happened more than we would like to beleive
Id like to add, that if this was an option in happening, naturally they would have destroyed it because, something went wrong
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