Lively Case Discussion #523a 9/12 - 9/15/2006 (use this one)

[klaasend]

I just read the new statement. Why did they arrest OR detain him again ? becasue it isn't in there.

I haven't a clue.  There is nothing in MJ's statement or Abraham's statement incriminating.

They were looking for someone to take the "fall" for Joran.  It didn't work because Beth, Jug and Dave didn't back down.  If it hadn't been for them, MJ and AJ would be sitting in KIA right now, IMO.

[Kat_Gram]

Was MJ referrring to Booti as one of the Beach Bums ?
.
I know that the name of the " guard" came from the Holiday Inn or so it was reported.
What a bunch of slow witted police there.

[Appeals]

Over and out for now

[Buckeye]

I find Sander's statement a little odd.  He refers to Natalee several times as the little girl.  Now, if you had never seen someone, I would think you might say the missing girl, the blonde girl, the American girl....but the little girl (when she is older than him) just seems to me he saw her.

[San]

I think she was drugged, but I think something violent took place.  Or she tried to get away and was run down by the car.

Knowing what we now know about Aruba, dropping off a dead tourist that had overdosed would have been the simplest thing in the world to do in Aruba and Paulus would have known that to be true.  There has to be another ingredient in the dynamics of this case that caused such an intensive cover-up.

Possible DNA would not have meant spit in Aruba either, so there had to be some obvious physical trauma, in my opinion.

I agree Easy.  If it were an accident Paulus would not have to call in the troops to cover for his rotten child.

[Kat_Gram]

I agree with Klaasend totally on the topic of the guards. Imagine the trouble they would have been in if they had black pants. Or nada in the way of an alibi. yet, they ignore the ppl who lied the most and made up the story.
Van Der Straaaten is like Joran's fairy godfather ! ! I mean a real fairy, like Tinkerbell, not the other kind...LOL

[thirdstrike]

I think she was drugged, but I think something violent took place.  Or she tried to get away and was run down by the car.

Knowing what we now know about Aruba, dropping off a dead tourist that had overdosed would have been the simplest thing in the world to do in Aruba and Paulus would have known that to be true.  There has to be another ingredient in the dynamics of this case that caused such an intensive cover-up.

Possible DNA would not have meant spit in Aruba either, so there had to be some obvious physical trauma, in my opinion.

I agree Easy.  If it were an accident Paulus would not have to call in the troops to cover for his rotten child.

Maybe San.  Or, maybe he still would in order to protect his own reputation.  Remember...he was trying to advance himself in the leagl profession.  Something like this would have surely had a negative impact on his chances at doing so...

[San]

Thanks Appeals!  Appreciate the info.

One question though...with these charges against Freddy, why wasn't he tried?  I mean, if they had, in fact, possession of such a tape, then surely they'd have a slam dunk case of rape against Freddy, wouldn't they?

This is what bothers me so much about this stuff.  If the evidence was there, why wasn't there a prosecution?

Cause they only prosecute the downtrodden and vulnerable on Aruba, not the elite, nor, it seems, the cumpadres of the elite.

By the way, at the time Geraldo was covering this and making these comments about the video, I had the distinct feeling...wish I could remember the specifics...that his staff had been talking to students, peers of Joran's, before the word came down for everybody to stop talking.  It would make sense that schoolmates would know about a video Joran was trying to sell.

Without a doubt some of those kids saw the video.  Kids know all that kind of stuff their classmates do.

[yapperz1]

Hiya Monkeys

[Easywriter]

I think she was drugged, but I think something violent took place.  Or she tried to get away and was run down by the car.

Knowing what we now know about Aruba, dropping off a dead tourist that had overdosed would have been the simplest thing in the world to do in Aruba and Paulus would have known that to be true.  There has to be another ingredient in the dynamics of this case that caused such an intensive cover-up.

Possible DNA would not have meant spit in Aruba either, so there had to be some obvious physical trauma, in my opinion.

I agree Easy.  If it were an accident Paulus would not have to call in the troops to cover for his rotten child.

Yes, it would have been so very simple.  Accidental death due to overdose, etc. case closed.  Aruba lives happily ever after and a grieving family takes their daughter's remains home.  Beth and Dave would have had suspicions, but that would not have gotten them anywhere in Aruba.

Something really had to alter the basic scenario to bring about what has ensued.  Not sure what that is, but it must have been something that required hiding.  Or, it would have pointed toward a crime and incriminated someone.

[San]

No, I definetely believed they were intimidated...although not by Jacobs (I think they only thing that would be intimidated by him would be doughnuts).  I think there were some other "people of power" who got to these girls.  So yes...I believe there was something much more sinister at work in regards to that Appeals.

Listen, I don't mean to sound "basic" here.  I do truly believe there were some very heavy influences in regards to the coverup in this case.  It's just that I believe it to be after the fact.  The crime itself (I believe) is very basic in nature.  What you see is what you get as far as that goes...

Ans yes...I do tend to think that a good part of the mishandling of this investigation comes from incompetence...plain and simple. They make the Keystone Cops look like Scotland Yard...

This is where we disagree again.  What you call incompetence I call done on purpose.  But that's OK because we see things differently.

[Carnut]

I find Sander's statement a little odd.  He refers to Natalee several times as the little girl.  Now, if you had never seen someone, I would think you might say the missing girl, the blonde girl, the American girl....but the little girl (when she is older than him) just seems to me he saw her.

I kinda figured that was just 'parroting' what he had been coached to say from someone older.

[yapperz1]

San I agree...Jacobs is as crooked as he is round  IMO

[Carnut]

No, I definetely believed they were intimidated...although not by Jacobs (I think they only thing that would be intimidated by him would be doughnuts).  I think there were some other "people of power" who got to these girls.  So yes...I believe there was something much more sinister at work in regards to that Appeals.

Listen, I don't mean to sound "basic" here.  I do truly believe there were some very heavy influences in regards to the coverup in this case.  It's just that I believe it to be after the fact.  The crime itself (I believe) is very basic in nature.  What you see is what you get as far as that goes...

Ans yes...I do tend to think that a good part of the mishandling of this investigation comes from incompetence...plain and simple. They make the Keystone Cops look like Scotland Yard...

This is where we disagree again.  What you call incompetence I call done on purpose.  But that's OK because we see things differently.

Yes, I think it was a purposeful incompetence. It's so obvious from all the innocuous statements and questionings.

[Kat_Gram]

If the death was " accidental " but there was another crime being committed, ie rape, kidnapping, drugging, etc. then it is a crime.
I don't think the three set out to kill anyone. They just wanted sex.
With or without consent.
In the police car tape, what does Joran say... they will find that Chit ?
If they find the girl they will find the Chit. That's a pretty damning thing to say. ?
When Dompig suggested on American TV that it was an accident. blah...blah etc drone on like he did .. I thought he was opening the door for someone ( K-Brothers ) to come thu and fess up.
How was I to know he believed the bs from Boeti.

[KatzHome]

Katz - we continue to get statements and I continue to ask Red to look for a Lorenzo statement.  It's at the top of my list, right up there with Joran's 5/31/2005 statement.

Easywriter - Nothing to implicate MJ at all but he does make a statement at the end of his interrigation that is pretty interresting.

ohhhh  now ya got me interested...  I'm heading on over that way to have a look!

And Strike ~ I finally got to sending that email...  just sent it now.

[San]

I agree Easy.  If it were an accident Paulus would not have to call in the troops to cover for his rotten child.

Maybe San.  Or, maybe he still would in order to protect his own reputation.  Remember...he was trying to advance himself in the leagl profession.  Something like this would have surely had a negative impact on his chances at doing so...

He already knew he flunked becoming a judge.  He wasn't advancing anywhere.

[San]

Hiya Monkeys

Hi Yap.

[Buckeye]

I find Sander's statement a little odd.  He refers to Natalee several times as the little girl.  Now, if you had never seen someone, I would think you might say the missing girl, the blonde girl, the American girl....but the little girl (when she is older than him) just seems to me he saw her.

I kinda figured that was just 'parroting' what he had been coached to say from someone older.

Then why didn't the others call her the little girl?? Only Sander??

[klaasend]

I find Sander's statement a little odd.  He refers to Natalee several times as the little girl.  Now, if you had never seen someone, I would think you might say the missing girl, the blonde girl, the American girl....but the little girl (when she is older than him) just seems to me he saw her.

I kinda figured that was just 'parroting' what he had been coached to say from someone older.

NO - the "little girl" is how it comes through in the translation.  It's probably just "GIRL".  Don't read too much into it.