Lively Case Discussion #523a 9/12 - 9/15/2006 (use this one)

[Carnut]

Maybe men in the US, but based upon the men and women (boys/girls) in Aruba, and how they portray themselves and talk about the female tourists, the "she asked for it" attitude is alive and well in Aruba.

Yeah ~ Deepak didn't hesitate to let his attitude show...

I agree this attitude does seem to be prevalent in that dirty little island.

[thirdstrike]

Hey XXX, Iknow our connection is much more ethereal than most, but I just have to ask.  How can this crime be a simple crime if the cover up is so dang complicated?

I'm glad to hear that Lala's!  I do really consider you a friend of mine, so...

As for your question...you've seemed to answer that one yourself!  Why?  Well, you have to look at it as (2) seperate entities.  The crime itself was "basic" in nature (IMO), but the coverup after the fact was what was complex.  It's like this...if I walk into Wal-Mart and steal a pair of pants...you would consider that "basic", right?  Well, what if I was the sonm of the President of the US?  Now, wouldn't the effects of the inital "basic" crime now become much more complex?  That's what I mean...

[Lala'sMom]

XXX
Men don't get a bad rap over this issue.  It is their own fault that it's an issue.  They are the ones that make suggestive remarks and do things that are not intended as a compliment.  I see it all the time.  It is not just a cultural thing either, I think it's part of the testosterone influence.

[Carnut]

I have often felt that men have a tendency toward women "asking" for it.  If this were not the case, why, more often than not, do men make remarks about what some women wear?  I have often heard men remark that "she's asking for it dressed that way". What is that suppose to mean?  Why is it that women are held to a much higher standard than men?  

I really think it has something to do with the birds and the bees thing.

We might not be here if man didn't have those kind of thoughts in the past.

It actually may have contributed to continuation of the species.

Now adays civilized thought is what kinda makes it a 'bad' thing.

[oldfart]

BTW

Suzanne Swift's site does have a pic I like


Easywriter  
I think that was Larry that called and asked to go OFF Air..
How did you know?[/b]

[KatzHome]

I have often felt that men have a tendency toward women "asking" for it.  If this were not the case, why, more often than not, do men make remarks about what some women wear?  I have often heard men remark that "she's asking for it dressed that way". What is that suppose to mean?  Why is it that women are held to a much higher standard than men?  

I've noticed more women having this attitude...  my mother has it ~ no matter what my sister or I have said to her...   some things are just "freakin"   hopeless...

[mrs. red]

I have often felt that men have a tendency toward women "asking" for it.  If this were not the case, why, more often than not, do men make remarks about what some women wear?  I have often heard men remark that "she's asking for it dressed that way". What is that suppose to mean?  Why is it that women are held to a much higher standard than men?  

and I also truly believe that especially after the Kobe case, we are headed back to "she asked for it"...

now OF and 3rd, I know y'all know better... but your mom didn't raise every man...... and I am also aware that a lot of stupid women think this garbage too...

[mrs. red]

i think I might ask for y'alls thoughts on the Suzanne Swift thing in the political lounge...... curious to y'alls thoughts

[thirdstrike]

XXX
Men don't get a bad rap over this issue.  It is their own fault that it's an issue.  They are the ones that make suggestive remarks and do things that are not intended as a compliment.  I see it all the time.  It is not just a cultural thing either, I think it's part of the testosterone influence.

You know I'm all about you Lala's.  But, I have to say, IMO, this is a very narrow minded viewpoint.  And frankly, I am shocked to hear it come from you...

Too many times, us men have to sit back and take the fall for what other men have done in the past to not only women, but people in general.  It doesn't matter how respectful we are, generalizations such as the ones I've heard in here always seem to be brough up...IMO, as a crutch for those women who can't stand for themselves.  It's sad to see...

My apologies for those who this may offend.  I can assure you that I as a man have nothing but love and respect for women.  I have a mother whom I adore, and a wife who I'd die for.  For someone else to group me in as part of their own negative esperiences somewhat sickens me...

Have a good evening...

[Sue]

when Larry mentioned a blog I am almost thinking he is talking about that SCARs person on BFN and that crap he was spewing

[Lala'sMom]

XXX
I am just parroting things I have seen.  I don't necessarily think this is always the case.  However, I see it quite often.  Men say these things.  I have heard them.  I am not going from what someone told, but what I actually seen and heard.  It is not a norrow minded viewpoint it is unfortunately a sad reality. We are still cool though.  

[mrs. red]

I am going to be reading Larry's book tonight... my amazon order just arrived yesterday.....

[thirdstrike]

...and I also truly believe that especially after the Kobe case, we are headed back to "she asked for it"...

Let me speak on the Kobe case for a minute...

As a Laker fan, I followed this case very closely.  In doing so, I actually befriended a very close friend of the accuser.  Over the course of about 6 months, I spoke to this person regularly.  I obtained info that nobody else had, and I can tell you with confidence...this woman was not raped.  Not even close.  As a matter of fact, there was a pattern to her behavior, and a pattern to her accusations.  

As a women, you can't really understand the risk we as men take in each and every sexual encounter we chose to partake in.  all it takes is one jilted lover, and our reputation (and life for that matter) is destroyed.  That's how easy it is.  It's a scary world...

[thirdstrike]

XXX
I am just parroting things I have seen.  I don't necessarily think this is always the case.  However, I see it quite often.  Men say these things.  I have heard them.  I am not going from what someone told, but what I actually seen and heard.  It is not a norrow minded viewpoint it is unfortunately a sad reality. We are still cool though.  

Yah, we're still cool.  But, I can tell you...I am saddened though...

[San]

Exactly Carnut.  People are forgetting that even though he was a "failing" judge (which I've heard different versions of his status), he still was, in fact, in the Aruban (or Dutch) legal system as such.  And, with him knowing he was struggling to remain so, he'd most surely wouldn't want something like an O.D. of an American tourist (involving his own son) to be the final "nail in his coffin" with regards to his profession...would he?

But, to be more specific, I do believe there was a little more then Natalee overdosing on drugs at play here.  Although I don't believe her death to have been intentional, it was a direct result of Joran and the K2's.  She was victimized in some way, and that's why Paulus (along with others in power) felt the need to aid in the concealing of the crime...

Third you said it was a simple crime before.  What you are explaining above is not a simple crime to me.

Someone have a chip on their shoulder, eh?

Of course, I would never imply that the murdering of an innocent person is ever "simple", I just believe that the criminal act itself isn't as complex as many in here are portaying it to be.  My apologies if it's not as popular as some would like it to be...

I just got back and saw your post.

I don't have a chip on my shoulder. You shouldn't imply I do because I disagree with what you said.  Unless you have one which I didn't think you did.  But then again I have been known to be wrong.

I was just implying that I thought what you said above wasn't simple.  Let's face facts here.  Drugging/Kidnapping/Raping and I'm not including murder isn't a simple act.  But then again according to Deepak it was.  What I listed above was their plan that night.  Unfortunately Natalee wound up dead.  I do not believe it was because of an OD only.  She died from either being attacked by many or trying to escape and they harmed her.  This is my opinion and this is what I believe happened.

The discussion is ended between me and you and I won't respond to your posts anymore.

[thirdstrike]

Exactly Carnut.  People are forgetting that even though he was a "failing" judge (which I've heard different versions of his status), he still was, in fact, in the Aruban (or Dutch) legal system as such.  And, with him knowing he was struggling to remain so, he'd most surely wouldn't want something like an O.D. of an American tourist (involving his own son) to be the final "nail in his coffin" with regards to his profession...would he?

But, to be more specific, I do believe there was a little more then Natalee overdosing on drugs at play here.  Although I don't believe her death to have been intentional, it was a direct result of Joran and the K2's.  She was victimized in some way, and that's why Paulus (along with others in power) felt the need to aid in the concealing of the crime...

Third you said it was a simple crime before.  What you are explaining above is not a simple crime to me.

Someone have a chip on their shoulder, eh?

Of course, I would never imply that the murdering of an innocent person is ever "simple", I just believe that the criminal act itself isn't as complex as many in here are portaying it to be.  My apologies if it's not as popular as some would like it to be...

I just got back and saw your post.

I don't have a chip on my shoulder. You shouldn't imply I do because I disagree with what you said.  Unless you have one which I didn't think you did.  But then again I have been known to be wrong.

I was just implying that I thought what you said above wasn't simple.  Let's face facts here.  Drugging/Kidnapping/Raping and I'm not including murder isn't a simple act.  But then again according to Deepak it was.  What I listed above was their plan that night.  Unfortunately Natalee wound up dead.  I do not believe it was because of an OD only.  She died from either being attacked by many or trying to escape and they harmed her.  This is my opinion and this is what I believe happened.

The discussion is ended between me and you and I won't respond to your posts anymore.

It's probably better that way.  Less drama...

[mrs. red]

...and I also truly believe that especially after the Kobe case, we are headed back to "she asked for it"...

Let me speak on the Kobe case for a minute...

As a Laker fan, I followed this case very closely.  In doing so, I actually befriended a very close friend of the accuser.  Over the course of about 6 months, I spoke to this person regularly.  I obtained info that nobody else had, and I can tell you with confidence...this woman was not raped.  Not even close.  As a matter of fact, there was a pattern to her behavior, and a pattern to her accusations.  

As a women, you can't really understand the risk we as men take in each and every sexual encounter we chose to partake in.  all it takes is one jilted lover, and our reputation (and life for that matter) is destroyed.  That's how easy it is.  It's a scary world...

Third,
I understand where you are coming from... I have brothers that were very popular because they were athletes... one brother in particular was the "hot commodity" for the town we lived in.... (at the time) so I get what you are saying...

but the fact is that so many people, I include women in this  - that say she asked for it.... I can't speak to the Kobe thing.. but he acted guilty IMO... even if you tell me he wasn't, which I don't think you have any reason to lie to me.. OK... but the second that hit... it was all about how she was a liar, wanted it blah, blah, blah.....

with the judge allowing evidence in as to what she wore... that is really what I am speaking to.  When we go back to that being evidence that "she asked for it" that alarms me.  
Sexual abuse has nothing to do with sex and everything to do with power...

[San]

It's probably better that way.  Less drama...

Well being the you're the biggest drama queen on the board you should know, eh!

[thirdstrike]

...and I also truly believe that especially after the Kobe case, we are headed back to "she asked for it"...

Let me speak on the Kobe case for a minute...

As a Laker fan, I followed this case very closely.  In doing so, I actually befriended a very close friend of the accuser.  Over the course of about 6 months, I spoke to this person regularly.  I obtained info that nobody else had, and I can tell you with confidence...this woman was not raped.  Not even close.  As a matter of fact, there was a pattern to her behavior, and a pattern to her accusations.  

As a women, you can't really understand the risk we as men take in each and every sexual encounter we chose to partake in.  all it takes is one jilted lover, and our reputation (and life for that matter) is destroyed.  That's how easy it is.  It's a scary world...

Third,
I understand where you are coming from... I have brothers that were very popular because they were athletes... one brother in particular was the "hot commodity" for the town we lived in.... (at the time) so I get what you are saying...

but the fact is that so many people, I include women in this  - that say she asked for it.... I can't speak to the Kobe thing.. but he acted guilty IMO... even if you tell me he wasn't, which I don't think you have any reason to lie to me.. OK... but the second that hit... it was all about how she was a liar, wanted it blah, blah, blah.....

with the judge allowing evidence in as to what she wore... that is really what I am speaking to.  When we go back to that being evidence that "she asked for it" that alarms me.  
Sexual abuse has nothing to do with sex and everything to do with power...

Yeah, but here's the point Scarlett...you can say he "acted guilty", because he was.  But, it wasn't the guilt you are referring to.  He was guilty of infidelity, which was probably very hard for him.  The loss of ones family could (and probably would) be much harder then the loss of one's freedoms.  And, just so you know, I lost a certain amount of respect for him because of it.  I'm sure the league dis too...

It's just difficult enough being a man sometimes without the added pressures of having to deal with the sins of others.  We should be judged on our own character...regardless of gender.  When we have to push past generalizations, it becomes disheartening...

[thirdstrike]

It's probably better that way.  Less drama...

Well being the you're the biggest drama queen on the board you should know, eh!

I guess...