Lively Case Discussion #523a 9/12 - 9/15/2006 (use this one)

[robots]

Huh? He says he's convinced now that JVDS did it but that Beth shouldn't have had the ALE after him?

Well, what it sounds like to me is whoever wrote that email is saying that Beth came on too strong and caused some of the problems.  I disagree with that.

But...if it is Roger, I find it very interresting that he believes after all his research what we have believed all along.

i dont know who roger is, but it seems like he has finally come to his senses, except he is wrong about Beth

Roger was someone who I thought had a Scrux loose and didn't have a good grasp of reality.

oh yea, the guy from SCRUX..... hmmm

dont know much about him, but blaming Beth is stupid

what was she supposed to do

i like her, i like her a lot

[San]

GOODNIGHT EVERYONE

[Anna]

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Klaas,
Well, some are just a year or so quicker than others I guess!  

And Beth is a distraught, grieving mother.  She was certainly NOT in charge of any aspect of any investigation.  I wish people would leave her out of their critique on how the case was mishandled by ALE.  All Beth could do was try to prevent people forgetting and she did a good job of that.  No way is she responsible in any way for the failure of ALE.

And I think I know which poster at BFN might be Roger, again from the writing style and the over-confidence.

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[Lala'sMom]

So Ole Roger is now moving toward the sanity side of life.  After all he has said and done, I am skeptical at best.  

[Sam]

You can put me down for being skeptical of any rape video or porn tapes with
Nat in it.

Way too complicated for the crime of a simple date rape gone wrong.

I think most men are skeptical of this as they believe all women "bring it on themselves" and if there were videos, they probably were "willing."  Just MHO.  I have come to believe that men believe that women "ask for it" and if they died in the act, or while being filmed because said man drugged them, it's just the luck of the draw from a woman who is "asking for it."

I think far too many people think that women bring it on themselves... I am afraid that women are taking giant steps backwards in this regard.

Ok, this is a little extreme.  Believe it or not, there are MANY of us men who've been raised much better then to believe that Tylergal!  I'm actually a little disappointed in this generalization...

Wow I find myself reading these post and agreeing with all of you. LOL

I am sure Thirdstrike does not make those remarks about women. He says he was raised better than that. I believe him. My DH also would never make those sort of remarks for the same reason. He also had 3 sisters. Plus we had 1 daughter as well as a son. I also tend to think that men with daughters are more respectful of women as a whole. JMHO

I had this conversation with Sis and her hubby just the other evening. I was complaining about 1 of my brothers who only had sons. He does make crude remarks about women and it always P...... me off. I let him know about it too. He says I do not have a sence of humor. And I say when you say something funny I will laugh.

Mrs Red I have heard those comments from Women for many years. "She was just asking for it. The way she was dressed and walking in that area of town."
Why can't we walk anywhere we please? Why can't we wear the clothes that are sold in the stores? And so on? Otherwise we would all wear uniforms and be exactly the same. JMHO

[klaasend]

GOODNIGHT EVERYONE

Nite San!

[igsigs]

I must say the writing style in this email does look similar to Roger's:

And the length

Might Rog be the person of interest mentioned who has changed his opinion?

[SunFreak2]

As I was reading back, it seemed that people were discussing the generalities of what happened in this case rather than the specific details.  So I will add my 2 cents for what its worth.

I believe that it was a case of the PIMPS idea of a date gone wrong.  Unfortunately, something different (bad) happened and there was enough to imply a crime rather than just an accident.  Joran and maybe the others panicked and tried to take care of it by hiding her whether she was fatally injured and still alive at that point or had already died.  I think that Paulus called in some favors to help coverup, and then the cover-up just snowballed as the gov't tried to protect the island to maintain it's tourism economy.

[klaasend]

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Klaas,
Well, some are just a year or so quicker than others I guess!  

And Beth is a distraught, grieving mother.  She was certainly NOT in charge of any aspect of any investigation.  I wish people would leave her out of their critique on how the case was mishandled by ALE.  All Beth could do was try to prevent people forgetting and she did a good job of that.  No way is she responsible in any way for the failure of ALE.

And I think I know which poster at BFN might be Roger, again from the writing style and the over-confidence.

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Yep, we are thinking about the same poster then.

[Anna]

I must say the writing style in this email does look similar to Roger's:

And the length

Might Rog be the person of interest mentioned who has changed his opinion?

He might, Igs.  And also he has come to BFN to enlighten them all as to any errors in their thinking.  That is also as I remember good ole Rog.

.

[Sam]

Has this topic already been discussed? I noticed Klaas has posted Mickey Johns statement. In it Mickey mentions a name.M. CELAIRE
Do we know anything about this person?

[igsigs]

I must say the writing style in this email does look similar to Roger's:

And the length

Might Rog be the person of interest mentioned who has changed his opinion?

He might, Igs.  And also he has come to BFN to enlighten them all as to any errors in their thinking.  That is also as I remember good ole Rog.

.

I wonder if his girlfriends still fall in and out of consciousness when they are in his company?  

Nonesuche should be here for this Rog news.

[klaasend]

Has this topic already been discussed? I noticed Klaas has posted Mickey Johns statement. In it Mickey mentions a name.M. CELAIRE
Do we know anything about this person?

No, but since the person was never brought in...and is most likely not Dutch, and ALE didn't attempt to pin it on him I don't think this person is involved..just my opinion.

[oldfart]

RE:JennyM s statements
whoever made these  I do tend to agree with part of them
Item E.
Suffocation  or a broken neck would be reasons not to go to the police with a possible OD. death

Paulis knowing before Beth knocked on the door..
He would have had a much more simple story for Joran ready.
( I left her hear... get the dogs and follow the scent)  which could not be followed ...

Did Beth & Jug cause problems by going to the Joran's home ?
Beth & Jug at his door put PAULIS into play vs the boys being picked up the next day without him being involved.  
I would have done the same expecting the police to interview all three that night at the police station  BUT... that did not happen because of Paulis and his positing.

AS far at the dump...possibly
Less complicated than  the ocean.. as far as number of people that would have to be involved and was / has Never has been fully searched.

Attempted yes..
but NOT closed down and searched  even though F-16's could be utilized to take pictues (has anyone seen them).
NO Heavy Equipment (bull dozers) or back-hoes(sp) was available to ALE
to conduct a search ?


JMO...

G'nite Monkeys

SeeeeYaaaByeeee

OldFart

[Anna]

[I wonder if his girlfriends still fall in and out of consciousness when they are in his company?  

Nonesuche should be here for this Rog news.

I would have to think that they do, Igs, for he assured us that was
"normal."   So it is just the norm for him I suppose.  I don't believe he has changed THAT much.  

[SunFreak2]

Klaas - would you post the chamber of commerce business info about the Excelsior casino again?  TIA.

[Anna]

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I wonder if Roger will now take out an ad in the NYT admonishing Joran and speaking to his guilt in this situation.    

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[klaasend]

Klaas - would you post the chamber of commerce business info about the Excelsior casino again?  TIA.

 
EXCELSIOR CASINO N.V.  
 
Business address J.E. IRAUSQUIN BLVD. 230, NOORD  
Legal form  LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANY  
Name of the company  EXCELSIOR CASINO N.V.  
Statutory seat  ARUBA  
Date of incorporation  19 JUNE 1998  
     
Authorized capital  ARUBAN FLORINS 100,000.00  
Issued capital  ARUBAN FLORINS 20,000.00  
Paid up capital  ARUBAN FLORINS 20,000.00  
Fiscal year  01 JANUARY thru 31 DECEMBER  
   
DIRECTORS - AUTHORIZED PERSONS AND CORPORATE BODIES - SUPERVISORY BOARD:  
 
POSNER, WALTER BRETT;  
Residing in  9 BANOCKBURN COURT , BANOCKBURN III, U.S.A.  
Born in  U.S.A., CHICAGO, ILLINOIS on 21 MAY 1960  
Nationality  AMERICAN  
Position  MANAGING DIRECTOR  
Effective  23 OCTOBER 1998  
Authority  FULL  
   
OBJECTIVE(S) OF THE COMPANY  
 
TO OPERATE A CASINO AT THE "HOLIDAY IN RESORT".

[klaasend]

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I wonder if Roger will now take out an ad in the NYT admonishing Joran and speaking to his guilt in this situation.    

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I won't hold my breath  

[Anna]

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I don't get it.  If joran is guilty wouldn't Beth be justified in just about--no make that just plain ANYTHING she did to Joran at that point?  If I thought my daughter was alive and somewhere being raped or terrified or whatever, I would want her and want her RIGHT NOW and not the next day or ten days later or whatever.

They took the police with them the first night which is more than I think I might have done if for no other reason than delay.  I have a bulletin for Joran.  Violence begets violence and he is very, very lucky that Beth and Jug have so much character.  I am afraid I would never have been so refrained.  

I have heard so much about what Beth did or should have done or didn't do.  Where is this manual of Acceptable Behavior for Mothers With Missing Abused and Possibly Deceased Children?  Maybe I need to read that because I know I would have gone ballistic especially when the chest pounding started.  Joran is easily a foot taller than I am but I would have just had to give it my best shot come what may.  That would have pushed me over the edge I just about know for a fact.  

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