Lively Case Discussion #523a 9/12 - 9/15/2006 (use this one)

[igsigs]

Goodnight all - see you tomorrow!

Goodnight Klaasend the Mighty.

Thanks for all.

[AZLady]

With Interpol involved??? I hadn't heard that part--whoopee!  I've been wondering where Interpol has been the past year.  Do you think it will really happen?

I think it is happening. The timing (lateness) is suspicious, and the request coming from Rudy Croes is suspicious, but what the hey.

Rudy referenced interpol's involvement as helping to get info from the FBI. I think it is more than that.

Interpol would not be needed to get help from the FBI as they have offered help and it's been declined.  I wonder if someone else with a strong arm has insisted on Interpol's involvement, and Rudy used this excuse to explain it.  You're right -- definitely more than just a way to get info from FBI.  I've long felt that Interpol was the only hope for justice in this case.  An international organization with no allegiances to the US, Holland or Aruba is needed to set this topsy-turvy island back on its feet.  Since they don't really want to be set upright, then the pressure is coming from other places--the EU perhaps?  or the Hague?

[thirdstrike]

With Interpol involved??? I hadn't heard that part--whoopee!  I've been wondering where Interpol has been the past year.  Do you think it will really happen?

I think it is happening. The timing (lateness) is suspicious, and the request coming from Rudy Croes is suspicious, but what the hey.

Rudy referenced interpol's involvement as helping to get info from the FBI. I think it is more than that.

Interpol would not be needed to get help from the FBI as they have offered help and it's been declined.  I wonder if someone else with a strong arm has insisted on Interpol's involvement, and Rudy used this excuse to explain it.  You're right -- definitely more than just a way to get info from FBI.  I've long felt that Interpol was the only hope for justice in this case.  An international organization with no allegiances to the US, Holland or Aruba is needed to set this topsy-turvy island back on its feet.  Since they don't really want to be set upright, then the pressure is coming from other places--the EU perhaps?  or the Hague?

Whatever will get this thing done, I'm all for!!!  I hope it's sooner then later though...

How is everyone?

[igsigs]

Goodnight all. Good-to-see-you-AZ-Lady-...

You're WHOOPEE made my night

[AZLady]

Night, Igs.  You're "news" for me made my night!!  Thanks for that.

[SunFreak2]

I've been trying to clear up some loose ends in my mind with regards to the corruption behind the cover-up.  Some familiar names & places just keep popping up.

We've probably all read that the Cuntrera - Caruano clan of La Cosa Nostra had infiltrated Aruba and allegedly bought up 60% of the island through investments in hotels, casinos and government officials.  According to Canadian police reports, in 1978, Pasquale Cuntrera owned the Holiday Inn Casino – although the registers indicated otherwise.  The US & the Dutch governements were concerned with laundering money through land investments & other construction projects in the hotel boom of the early 80's.  This Mafia clan had established itself in Venezuela and was and probably still is the largest international drug trafficker. They also control significant money laundering networks.

Some of the families they were involved with include prominent Aruban families involved in the banking industry.

"The Intercon Financial Bank on Aruba is represented by the law-firm Croes & Wever. One of the partners is former Minister of Justice Hendrik Croes. The firm's trust-company Arulex was implicated in setting up the bank. "Yes, we are involved with that bank," says Croes. "We still handle all their legal affairs, but we don't know anything of their financial accounts."

"Hendrik Croes – a brother of the island's legendary leader, the late Betico Croes who guided Aruba to its semi-independent status in the Dutch realm – is one of the leading political figures on the island. He led several election campaigns for the MEP, now in the opposition. The Croes Family has been accused of ties with Cuntrera-Caruana. The Sicilian mafiosi payed for a trip of another brother, Rudy Croes (who succeeded Hendrik as Minister of Justice in a previous MEP government) as party secretary to a meeting of the Socialist International in Turkey. This has not been denied."

The Mansur family is also reportedly linked with this clan through another Aruban bank - the  Interbank, which the Mansurs own.  "The Mansurs made their fortune as cigarette manufacturers and in the import-export business. With a licence of Philip Morris, they are the major suppliers of Marlboros in the Caribbean basin. The Mansurs sponsor the best baseball team – Aruba's national sport – the Marlboro Red Tigers as well as the AVP party of Prime Minister Henny Eman. They own the biggest hotel and time-sharing complex, La Cabana, with its inevitable casino. And they have a couple of import-export businesses in the Free Trade Zone."

In 1996, President Clinton places Aruba on the list of "major Illicit Drug-transit countries" where it remains to this day.

On 6-19-98, the Excelsior Casino is established to a Walter Brett Posner (relative of Michael Posner) residing in Chicago, Illinois.  Michael Posner was/is linked with the Mafia family in Chicago.  Posner is indicted in the USA in illegal internet betting activities.

12-8-98 - Carlo's N Charlies franchise in Aruba is established.  Reportedly associated with mob activities and drugging of patron's drinks.

1999 - Money Laundering is made illegal in Aruba, although Aruba & the Netherlands remain tax-havens.

Too many familiar surnames, too much money changing hands through legal & illegal activity on this island for this all to be coincidence.  Considering all the money one 17 yo boy spent while garnering special priveledges,  makes one wonder what Joran & Paulus were involved in.

Sources:
http://www.tni.org/archives/tblick/aruba.htm
http://members.aol.com/worldJOURNIER/NATALEE/NATALEEtimeline.html

[KatzHome]

Good night Klaas ~ though you're probably sleeping...  Anyone home?  How'd softball go, Purple cool ~ are you here?

[thirdstrike]

Good night Klaas ~ though you're probably sleeping...  Anyone home?  How'd softball go, Purple cool ~ are you here?

Hey...whazzuupp Katz??  Didn't know I'd run into you...

Softball was GREAT!  We came back in the bottom of the last inning to win by 1 run!  We were down 3 w/2 outs, and we rallied!  Pretty good win for us!!  Thanks for asking!!

I just sent you an email, BTW.  Check it out when you get the chance...

[AZLady]

Sun, I do believe that is a key aspect of the corruption on Aruba.  Drugs and money laundering are two parts of the three legged stool that holds up the Aruban economy.  As a lawyer, PVDS was in a position to be a valuable player in this economy.  He could write and file the paperwork to get things done.  His son was one of the junior players and criminal-in-training under his tutelage.  

What does all this have to do with Natalee?  It indicates a society so corrupt that even people's lives are expendable.  It shows there are no boundaries and a teenager raised in this society uses people for his own pleasure and profit, just as his elders do.  I think the world has known about the corruption simmering under Aruba's vacation paradise facade for quite a few years, but it's been covered up just like this crime has been swept under the Aruban sands.  The underworld is really a world apart from the rest of the law-abiding countries on our globe.  When an arrogant and foolish young man stepped across the boundary between the underworld and the real world, he broke a taboo.  What amazes me is why he has been allowed to survive this long after everything that has happened and the light that has been turned on Aruba.

[thirdstrike]

Ok, I'm a little tired, so I'm heading to bed...

Goodnight everyone!!  

[KatzHome]

Good night Klaas ~ though you're probably sleeping...  Anyone home?  How'd softball go, Purple cool ~ are you here?

Hey...whazzuupp Katz??  Didn't know I'd run into you...

Softball was GREAT!  We came back in the bottom of the last inning to win by 1 run!  We were down 3 w/2 outs, and we rallied!  Pretty good win for us!!  Thanks for asking!!

I just sent you an email, BTW.  Check it out when you get the chance...

I'm answering it right now Strike...  and sending that CD label to you too...

[KatzHome]

Ok, I'm a little tired, so I'm heading to bed...

Goodnight everyone!!  

Good night ~ sweet dreams!

[SunFreak2]

Sun, I do believe that is a key aspect of the corruption on Aruba.  Drugs and money laundering are two parts of the three legged stool that holds up the Aruban economy.  As a lawyer, PVDS was in a position to be a valuable player in this economy.  He could write and file the paperwork to get things done.  His son was one of the junior players and criminal-in-training under his tutelage.  

What does all this have to do with Natalee?  It indicates a society so corrupt that even people's lives are expendable.  It shows there are no boundaries and a teenager raised in this society uses people for his own pleasure and profit, just as his elders do.  I think the world has known about the corruption simmering under Aruba's vacation paradise facade for quite a few years, but it's been covered up just like this crime has been swept under the Aruban sands.  The underworld is really a world apart from the rest of the law-abiding countries on our globe.  When an arrogant and foolish young man stepped across the boundary between the underworld and the real world, he broke a taboo.  What amazes me is why he has been allowed to survive this long after everything that has happened and the light that has been turned on Aruba.

I think it is still to early in the game to rub out Joran.  That would really blow open the can of worms that are trying to keep the lid on.  I think that afew years down the road, Joran will meet with a very violent death that will be either a very obvious hit or will be an astounding accident.  I don't Joran realizes yet what he has done as far as the ball rolling downhill.  He's a marked manboy and he better get used to waiting for "it" to happen.  JMHO.  He's got the kind of people mad at him that you don't want to even be on their radar at all, if ya know what I mean.

[AZLady]

Sun, I do believe that is a key aspect of the corruption on Aruba.  Drugs and money laundering are two parts of the three legged stool that holds up the Aruban economy.  As a lawyer, PVDS was in a position to be a valuable player in this economy.  He could write and file the paperwork to get things done.  His son was one of the junior players and criminal-in-training under his tutelage.  

What does all this have to do with Natalee?  It indicates a society so corrupt that even people's lives are expendable.  It shows there are no boundaries and a teenager raised in this society uses people for his own pleasure and profit, just as his elders do.  I think the world has known about the corruption simmering under Aruba's vacation paradise facade for quite a few years, but it's been covered up just like this crime has been swept under the Aruban sands.  The underworld is really a world apart from the rest of the law-abiding countries on our globe.  When an arrogant and foolish young man stepped across the boundary between the underworld and the real world, he broke a taboo.  What amazes me is why he has been allowed to survive this long after everything that has happened and the light that has been turned on Aruba.

I think it is still to early in the game to rub out Joran.  That would really blow open the can of worms that are trying to keep the lid on.  I think that afew years down the road, Joran will meet with a very violent death that will be either a very obvious hit or will be an astounding accident.  I don't Joran realizes yet what he has done as far as the ball rolling downhill.  He's a marked manboy and he better get used to waiting for "it" to happen.  JMHO.  He's got the kind of people mad at him that you don't want to even be on their radar at all, if ya know what I mean.

Could this be why the chatter is quiet now?  Because they all know Joran is a "dead man walking?"

[Spock]

TOP TEN wish list for next statement...

1) Joran 6/10, "confession statement".
2) Joran 6/11
3) Joran 5/31
4) Freddy
5) Lorenzo
6) Koen
7) Joran cell (5/29, 5/30)
8 ) VDS home phone (5/29, 5/30)
9) Paulus cell (5/29, 5/30)
10) C. Croes

We need to find out if Steve Croes was at C&C as he told Deepak and Satish. We need Steve's statement.

[SunFreak2]

Sun, I do believe that is a key aspect of the corruption on Aruba.  Drugs and money laundering are two parts of the three legged stool that holds up the Aruban economy.  As a lawyer, PVDS was in a position to be a valuable player in this economy.  He could write and file the paperwork to get things done.  His son was one of the junior players and criminal-in-training under his tutelage.  

What does all this have to do with Natalee?  It indicates a society so corrupt that even people's lives are expendable.  It shows there are no boundaries and a teenager raised in this society uses people for his own pleasure and profit, just as his elders do.  I think the world has known about the corruption simmering under Aruba's vacation paradise facade for quite a few years, but it's been covered up just like this crime has been swept under the Aruban sands.  The underworld is really a world apart from the rest of the law-abiding countries on our globe.  When an arrogant and foolish young man stepped across the boundary between the underworld and the real world, he broke a taboo.  What amazes me is why he has been allowed to survive this long after everything that has happened and the light that has been turned on Aruba.

I think it is still to early in the game to rub out Joran.  That would really blow open the can of worms that are trying to keep the lid on.  I think that afew years down the road, Joran will meet with a very violent death that will be either a very obvious hit or will be an astounding accident.  I don't Joran realizes yet what he has done as far as the ball rolling downhill.  He's a marked manboy and he better get used to waiting for "it" to happen.  JMHO.  He's got the kind of people mad at him that you don't want to even be on their radar at all, if ya know what I mean.

Could this be why the chatter is quiet now?  Because they all know Joran is a "dead man walking?"

Not so sure what you mean by chatter being quiet.  Some of them are just hoping the case will die out due to lack of interest, so they think if they stay quiet all is well.  Others are quiet so as not to involve themselves in it by saying the wrong thing that would open the can.  Then there is OMERTA - the oath of silence, which hangs heavily in the air.

But Joran taunts people - he pushes the envelope in being a smart alec. He wents to bars, to the Marriott beach.  He made sure that pictures were taken of him smirking and enjoying his life doing the same old things. He purposely got himself thrown out of Club Bahia for making out with the girl when they told him twice to quit.  He sees himself above the law, above the rules that ordinary peons have to follow.  Not for Joran the delicious sporter.  He pushes and manipulates those he feels are below him to do his grunt work and bear witness to his whims.  Unfortunately for Joran, his parents never taught him to respect anyone, so he doesn't recognize where his allegiances lay for his special treatment.  He takes it for granted.  What he thinks is schmoozing is irritating to some. They got his number - he's an arrogant brat who thinks he's infallible and irreplaceable. He effed up, and the stink is not going going a away.  Time to cut losses, cut out the thorm in the liom's foot so to speak. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it was a family accident. That wouldn'y leave any lose ends. Bang - they don't exist anymore.  

And the moral of the story is watch whose sandbox your kid climbs in to play.

[Leslie]

Diario
http://www.diarioaruba.com/
Amigoe
http://www.amigoe.com/english/
BonDia
http://www.cspnv.com/
Solo di Pueblo
http://www.solodipueblo.com/
Translator:
http://papiamentu.donamaro.nl

[blah]

.
Klaas,
Well, some are just a year or so quicker than others I guess!  

And Beth is a distraught, grieving mother.  She was certainly NOT in charge of any aspect of any investigation.  I wish people would leave her out of their critique on how the case was mishandled by ALE.  All Beth could do was try to prevent people forgetting and she did a good job of that.  No way is she responsible in any way for the failure of ALE.

And I think I know which poster at BFN might be Roger, again from the writing style and the over-confidence.

.

People in Aruba seem to look at things bass ackwards (no wonder that place is so screwed up).  The ALE forced Beth to go to the media because they frankly didnt do shit to find natalee.  She had no choice but to pleade her case to the public due to the lack of any sort of investigation.  How else could Beth continue to search for her daughter unless she had the support from the public (and i mean Americans, not island dwellers with their head stuck in the sand)  I cannot even imagine the cost of the effort to find Natalee.  Apparently it was higher than even the island of Aruba could afford - or cared to spend, whichever.

Beth did the right thing and it took a ton of courage.  She is a very brave woman who exposed a whole island of corruption and is doing an amazing job to prevent this from ever happening again.  For over 15 months she has been fightin toe to toe with the evil on that island and she seems to be finally gaining an edge.  Time and time again all the breaks went to the criminals yet Beth is still resilient as all hell and deserves the support of all people in her struggle of good vs. evil.  Aruba evildo'ers - you will not and cannot break this woman.  You will provide justice for Natalee.

[Easywriter]

Well, I couldn’t get Dana to spill the beans about his future plans except that some things were in the works and to stay tuned.  I do hope something good comes that guy’s way.  He has really built up an impressive repertoire of return guest and I like his style.  I also enjoy hearing the thoughts and questions from the listeners which include so many of you.  Hey!  Dana is a Monkey with a Monkey heart!

Garrison also really sang the guy’s praises last night along with several good things to say about the Monkeys and Red in particular.  I thought that was big of him and I found it interesting that he reads here enough to be familiar with the general consensus of thought.

Deep down I have a feeling we are all witnessing the beginning of something worthwhile that will broaden its reach across two continents.

Way to go Dana!

[Easywriter]

I like Beth and I like Dave and it really, really bothers me when some of these other sites try to take apart everything they say and do.  If it had not been for their diligence, two poor saps would still be sitting in jail for this crime and Aruba would have brushed any details under the rug.

I just don’t get the extreme hatred some of these whack-o’s have toward Beth Twitty and I think it is a mixture of geographical bias and jealousy.

Poor Beth stood before a small country and called three criminals criminals.  Then she was forced to apologize, which she did in an effort to appease a bunch of crooks that have stabbed her in the back from day one.  She is a better person than me.