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NANCY GRACE

Mother Officially Named Suspect in Missing Toddler Case

Aired October 1, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 15 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Police formally name mom, Casey Anthony, the prime suspect in 3-year-old Caylee`s disappearance. But why now? What do they know that has tipped the scales?

And tonight, primetime exclusive, the Zenaida Gonzalez who mom, Casey, named to police as Caylee`s kidnapper, is with us live. Now she`s naming someone, mom, Casey Anthony, in a lawsuit, this as she struggles to carry on a normal life, even receiving death threats after being branded the kidnapper of little Caylee.

And tonight, more stunning police interrogation tapes released. As we wait for formal charges tonight, where is 3-year-old Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Another shocking development in the case of missing 3-year-old toddler Caylee Anthony. Just hours ago, a spokesman with the Orange County sheriff`s office confirmed that 22-year-old tot mom, Casey Anthony, is now a suspect in the disappearance of little Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is a suspect?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In one of their clearest messages yet that they believe only one person can solve this mystery, Orange County investigators confirm that Casey Anthony is now a suspect in her daughter, Caylee`s, disappearance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is the -- our person that we continue to go to and hope that she will step forward, finally that she will wake up and say, Let me provide the information to you and bring this to an end.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today Casey`s lawyer, Jose Baez, told us he sees no difference between investigators calling Casey a person of interest, as they have for more than two months, or now a suspect. He declined our request for an interview. Meanwhile, investigators tell us they`re reaching a milestone in the number of leads they`ve received in the search for Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re looking at all of the tips that we`ve received, close to almost 5,000 tips that we`ve received.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any credible evidence that she`s been sighted, anything along those lines?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In one word, no.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators say sometimes it appears that those alleged sightings are offered up only to take attention off of Casey.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The information sometimes seems like it`s a smokescreen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And sources tell WESH (ph), too, that sheriff`s detectives and FDLE and FBI agents have followed up on leads in almost every state in the nation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, Hollywood superstar Heather Locklear busted, allegedly caught driving under the influence, upscale California suburbs. A 991 call claims the TV star spotted driving erratically. Police report Locklear completely disoriented when cops find her BMW blocking traffic. But now claims surface Locklear was set up. Tonight, the Heather Locklear 911 call.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: 911 emergency. What are you reporting?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A drunk driver.

911 OPERATOR: Where at?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At the Live Oaks Road and what is -- is this East Valley Road? East Valley Road and Live Oaks Road in Montecito. The person -- it`s a woman. She just pulled over.

911 OPERATOR: What direction on Live Oaks, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s pointing south, right by East Valley Drive. Can I give you the plate number?

911 OPERATOR: Sure. What kind of car is it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a black BMW (DELETED)

911 OPERATOR: What are they doing?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, they just pulled -- she was drunk at this -- we were at the market. She was drunk in the market, and she got in the car. And then we saw her pulled over. She`s now pulled over, and she`s -- she wandered up and down the street, but now she`s back in the driver`s seat.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was actress Heather Locklear set up? The star was arrested on suspicion of DUI and prescription drugs outside Santa Barbara this weekend. Now the entertainment site TMZ reports the woman who called 911 and tipped off the paparazzi is a former staffer for "US Weekly," an entertainment magazine. The Web site said she`s also under investigation by the FBI. That`s the caller. She claims she saw Locklear driving erratically along the road in Montecito, and reportedly, there are other witnesses to back up those claims. The case is now in the hands of prosecutors.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace, I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking developments just moments ago in the case of missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Orange County authorities have declared the tot mom Casey Anthony is now a suspect in the disappearance of her 3-year-old daughter, Caylee. Authorities maintain that Anthony has continually lied to them about what happened to her daughter and has refused to speak further with investigators.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Orange County investigators confirm that Casey Anthony is now a suspect in her daughter, Caylee`s, disappearance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is the -- our person that we continue to go to and hope that she will step forward, finally that she will wake up and say, Let me provide the information to bring this to an end.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, how come everybody`s saying you`re lying?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Because nobody`s (DELETED) listening to anything that I`m saying. The media completely misconstrued everything that I said. The (DELETED) detectives pulled (DELETED) They got all of their information from me. Yet at the same time, they`re twisting stuff. They`ve already said they`re going to pin this on me if they don`t find Caylee. They`ve already said that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well...

CASEY ANTHONY: They arrested me because they said that...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, because they said that the person that you dropped Caylee with doesn`t even exist.

CASEY ANTHONY: Because -- oh, look, they can`t find her in the Florida database. She`s not just from Florida. If they would actually listen to anything that I would have said to them, they would have had -- they maybe could have tracked her down. They haven`t listened to a (DELETED) thing that I`ve said.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Mom, Casey Anthony, named a suspect not in a fraud case, not a bad check case, but in the disappearance of her little girl, 3-year-old Caylee. What do you believe tipped the scales?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: That`s tough to say. You know, that`s something that`s internal to the investigation. And throughout this investigation, they`ve always, you know, kept that close inside and not really let on. We do know that there was DNA evidence found in the trunk of the car, and you know, there was other evidence. Caylee`s hair was actually found in the car. So you have to imagine those are some of the things that have added to their decision to now call her a suspect in the disappearance of her daughter.

GRACE: To famed forensic scientist Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky from John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He is a member of the Casey Anthony defense team. Well, your client has been named a suspect, a formal suspect, the only formal suspect in the disappearance of 3-year-old Caylee. We`re not talking about a bad check, Koby (ph). What say you?

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, I think that there`s a lot of evidence raising a lot of issues about the disappearance of this 3- year-old. I think there`s physical evidence. There`s accumulating information that she has not been truthful with the police. And so this is a very challenging case for the defense. There`s no doubt about that. And obviously, I think that people are expecting the charges to be -- to be brought fairly soon.

GRACE: Does the defense team expect a murder charge?

KOBILINSKY: I can`t answer that for the defense team. I would anticipate that those charges make sense, given what we`ve heard the sheriff indicate, that they can certainly have a case without a body. And they certainly have physical evidence that supports an allegation. So I believe there will be charges.

GRACE: And speaking of what the sheriff had to say, here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is a suspect.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct. She is our person that we continue to go to and hope that she will step forward, finally that she will wake up and say, Let me provide the information to bring this to an end.

We`re looking at all the tips that we`ve received, close to almost 5,000 tips that we`ve received.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any credible evidence that she`s been sighted, anything along those lines?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In one word, no.

The information sometimes seems like it`s a smokescreen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to famed forensic scientist Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, a member of the Casey Anthony defense team. Koby, you mentioned physical evidence accumulating. What physical evidence?

KOBILINSKY: Well, we continuously are hearing about hair in the trunk. We know that there has been air sampling tested by the University of Tennessee, the "body farm," indicating that there may be chemicals indicating decomposition. I think the presence of hair -- again, we keep hearing about a banding pattern.

Again, no official reports that I`ve seen, but this kind of evidence is certainly serious and challenging, and it could be interpreted as decomposition of a body. And so I think that this would support the allegations that we keep hearing about.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, everyone. We are taking your calls live. The breaks news tonight, mom, Casey Anthony, has been formally named a suspect in her daughter`s disappearance. It`s been a long time coming, and it`s finally happened.

With us tonight out of New York, Alan Ripka, veteran trial lawyer, and defense attorney out of the Atlanta jurisdiction Renee Rockwell. Alan Ripka, what is the difference legally between a person of interest and a suspect?

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, a person of interest is someone that the police are just thinking about, obviously, someone that they think could be involved. They have no evidence to tie that person into the crime. A suspect is someone that the police have some sort of evidence or a greater belief that they are involved in this crime or committed this crime. And they`re taking a giant step forward to call her a suspect.

GRACE: Everyone, in just a few moments, we`re going to be joined by Zenaida Gonzalez. The tot mom, Casey Anthony, pointed the finger at her to police as being Caylee`s kidnapper. It has nearly ruined her life.

Back to you, Renee Rockwell. The last time you joined us, no matter what question I asked you, every time, you gave the same answer, There`s not an indictment yet. OK. I`m one of those crazy people that believes in second chances. Here we go. In your mind, does this up the ante for her to crack and tell the truth? She`s been formally named a suspect.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t think she`s going to crack, Nancy. I think that the attorney is going to handle her the same way whether she`s a person of interest or a suspect. He is not going to let her talk. And she`s not going to just come forward and say, OK, fine, I did it, here`s where the body is.

GRACE: Renee, if a lawyer`s client comes in and reveals that they have hidden a body, what is the defense lawyer`s duty at that point?

ROCKWELL: He`s now in a predicament because he`s got two concerns. One is the ethical obligation to not continue a crime of hiding a body...

GRACE: You know, Renee, just cut through it. What do you do in that position?

ROCKWELL: Nancy, you need to get another attorney on board because now she`s admitted something to him, and he can`t just go forward and divulge that.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere, and you`re worried that if we find that out, that people are going to look at you in the wrong way?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned her.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re our biggest help. You`re going to be our biggest help in solving this.

CASEY ANTHONY: I have nothing to go off of. That`s the problem. I have perspective ideas of maybe where she could go. She could have gone back up to New York. She could have gone up to Jacksonville, where we have a friend. She could have gone down to Miami, where her mom and her sister lives now. She could have gone anywhere.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does she have any children?

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re talking about the baby-sitter, right. She doesn`t have any children?

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could she have children? Is it something that she could have done and...

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m pretty sure that she could, but it was never anything that came up.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Everyone, the tot mom, mom, Casey Anthony, has formally been named a suspect in her daughter`s disappearance. It`s been a long time coming, as we wait for formal charges to come down. I`m not talking about a bad check card -- a bad check charge or a fraud charge. This is in relation to the disappearance of 3-year-old Caylee Anthony. We are taking your calls live.

We`ve got a very special guest joining us tonight, the Zenaida Gonzalez that Casey Anthony named as the kidnapper of her little girl, the Zenaida Gonzalez that was at Sawgrass apartments. In the most twisted turn of events, there actually is a Zenaida Gonzalez, and she is with us tonight. Let me at the beginning say she is not a kidnapper. She has never met Casey or Caylee Anthony, has no knowledge of this case whatsoever. But after this, her life has been devastated.

Ms. Gonzalez, thank you for being with us.

ZENAIDA GONZALEZ, ALLEGED BABY-SITTER: You`re welcome.

GRACE: When did you first realize that you were a part of a potential murder investigation?

GONZALEZ: When I received a phone call from the detective.

GRACE: And what did they say?

GONZALEZ: That if I was the Zenaida Gonzalez that had -- that had the two children and was driving a certain car. And I was, like, yes. And then he was -- he said, OK, well, then you are -- we need to speak to you because you`re a suspect in a disappearance of Caylee Anthony.

GRACE: Oh, good Lord in heaven! What was your immediate reaction? Had you ever even heard of Caylee Anthony?

GONZALEZ: No. I was in shock.

GRACE: Where were you when you received this phone call from a detective?

GONZALEZ: I was actually -- I was out in the store with my daughters.

GRACE: What, they called you on your cell?

GONZALEZ: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: Amazing how they got the information. Now, had you been at Sawgrass Apartments earlier?

GONZALEZ: I had just went that one time to go look at an apartment.

GRACE: And did you look at that vacant apartment?

GONZALEZ: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: And such a twist. To your attorney, John Morgan, joining us from Orlando. He is handling this defamation lawsuit against mom, Casey Anthony. Have you considered, John Morgan, how Casey Anthony got the information that a Zenaida Gonzalez was at Sawgrass Apartments, at that particular apartment, looking at that particular apartment? How did she get her hands on that?

JOHN MORGAN, ATTORNEY FOR ZENAIDA GONZALEZ: Well, when she made the visit to the Sawgrass Apartments, she filled out a visitor`s card. She put her name down and her two children`s names down. So we suspect that she may have received the information that way.

GRACE: I still am perplexed as to how Casey Anthony got that information. I know that she knew people that lived in the area. Isn`t that correct, Leonard Padilla?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: That`s correct. She knew Annie Dowling (ph), who lived in apartment 218, and she knew Dante (ph), who also lived in 218. And on that particular day, she wasn`t driving her car. She was driving Tony`s Jeep with a New York plate on it. And she had been out to visit Chris (ph) earlier in the day. So it`s not like she was driving her car and it would be recognized if she was in and around the apartments. She was actually driving a Jeep that belonged to Tony.

GRACE: Back to Zenaida Gonzalez, joining us tonight, and her attorney, a veteran lawyer there in Orlando, Florida, John Morgan. Ms. Gonzalez, when did you -- after you received this phone call, you`re out shopping with two of your -- you have six children, right?

GONZALEZ: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: Like you need another child.

GONZALEZ: No, I don`t.

GRACE: OK. Six -- I think an even half dozen is a good number. I`ve got two, and I think that that may be enough for me. Ms. Gonzalez, you get this phone call from cops that tell you you`re a suspect in a kidnapping. What did you do then?

GONZALEZ: I was kind of in shock. I didn`t know what to do.

GRACE: These are shots of the children of Zenaida Gonzalez. Well, what did you do, just go home? Did you call a lawyer?

GONZALEZ: I just went home. I just -- they said they wanted to meet with me, and I just went home and I said, OK, then just come by. I`ll be there in 20, 30 minutes.

GRACE: You know, it`s amazing. They never got that kind of cooperation from Casey Anthony. So the cops show up. Were your children at home when the cops came to Mommy`s door?

GONZALEZ: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: That`s not a good childhood memory.

GONZALEZ: No.

GRACE: What did they say when they got there?

GONZALEZ: They just -- - they asked me questions, if I knew -- they asked me first if I had went to the Sawgrass Apartments on a certain date. And I said, Yes, I did. And they asked, OK, and what is the car that you was driving? So I showed them the car outside. And I said, That was the car I was driving. And he said, OK, then, you know, we want to show you some pictures and see if you recognize them. And they showed me pictures of Casey and Caylee. And I didn`t know who they were. So I told them I didn`t know. And then that`s when they informed me -- well, they informed me that she had given my name -- she had said that she had given me her daughter for me to baby-sit.

GRACE: Had you ever baby-sat for Casey Anthony?

GONZALEZ: No, ma`am.

GRACE: Had you ever baby-sat for anyone that worked at Universal?

GONZALEZ: No, ma`am. I`m not a baby-sitter.

GRACE: What do you do for a living?

GONZALEZ: I clean.

GRACE: And somehow, you`ve gotten sucked into this. Back to your attorney, John Morgan. Describe to me the lawsuit that you filed on behalf of Ms. Gonzalez against mom, Casey Anthony.

MORGAN: Well, when I met Zenaida, she was a basket case. She was fired from her job. She has had trouble finding jobs. Just the name Zenaida Gonzalez is a red flag. And she said, you know, What can I do? And I said, Listen, you`ve been charged with kidnapping or murder. And you can do two things. You can do nothing or do something. And I said, This girl has been pushing the police, and pushing her parents, and now pushing you. And what you can do is push back. And that`s -- and that`s why we filed the defamation lawsuit.

GRACE: You know, there aren`t many employers that want someone accused of kidnapping and possibly a murder.

MORGAN: Exactly. Exactly.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can`t tell me anybody that can find Caylee? Nobody.

CASEY ANTHONY: No, because every number that I`ve tried, every number that I`ve called is disconnected. Nothing. I can`t get ahold of anybody.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But that -- that girl was the last person to have her?

CASEY ANTHONY: She was the last person to have her. That was the last time I saw Caylee.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know where she was from? With a name like Soraida (ph) or whatever...

CASEY ANTHONY: Zenaida.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Zenaida.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s mixed. She`s Puerto Rican and her father`s black. She`s from New York. From what I`ve been told, that`s where she was born.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

CASEY ANTHONY: She moved to Miami. She went to U of F.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: To psychologist Caryn Stark. I`m always amazed when I listen to mom, Casey Anthony. The lies get more and more fantastic, more intricate, more elaborate, more detailed. What does that mean?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: It just means that she has a psychopathic personality, Nancy. Isn`t it intriguing? I mean, the woman is cunning and crafty. She`s a wonderful liar, narcissistic. She really fits. She`s classically a person with that kind of a pathology.

GRACE: Ms. Gonzalez, have you ever gotten an apology from Casey Anthony?

GONZALEZ: No, ma`am.

GRACE: Have you ever heard from her or her lawyers?

GONZALEZ: No.

GRACE: Do you expect to be called at trial? You`re on the witness list.

GONZALEZ: I expect to, and I will show up because I haven`t done anything.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: And you last saw her a month ago?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TOT CAYLEE: 31 days. It`s been 31 days.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: Who has her? Do you have a name?

CASEY ANTHONY: Her name is Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: Who is that? Babysitter?

CASEY ANTHONY: She has been my nanny for about a year and a half. Almost two years.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: And why are you calling now? Why didn`t you call 31 days ago?

CASEY ANTHONY: I have been looking for her, and have gone through other resources to try to find her, which was stupid.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: OK. What is the 3-year-old`s name?

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Caylee, C-A-Y-L-E-E Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: Caylee Anthony?

CINDY ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: How long has she been missing for?

CINDY ANTHONY: I have not seen her since the 7th of June.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: What is her date of birth?

CINDY ANTHONY: 8/9/2000 -- god, she is 3 -- 2005. Caylee`s missing. Caylee`s missing. Casey says Zanny took her a month ago. She`s been missing for a month.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Casey is a suspect.

UNIDENTIFIED POLICE: Correct. She is the person that we continue to go to and hope that she will step forward, if only that she will make up and say, let me provide the information to bring this to an end.

We`re looking at all the tips that we`ve received, close to almost 5,000 tips that we`ve received.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Any credible evidence that she has been sighted, anything along those lines?

UNIDENTIFIED POLICE: In one word, no. The information sometimes seems like it`s a smoke screen.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, just as we go to air, police formally name mom Casey Anthony as the prime suspect in the disappearance of 3-year- old Caylee. It`s been a long-time coming.

What does it mean? We are taking your calls live. Out to Isha in Georgia, hi, Isha.

ISHA, GEORGIA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. How are you doing?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

ISHA: My question is -- first I just want to thank you for doing what you do.

GRACE: Thank you.

ISHA: You are awesome and I love you. But my question is, at one time we heard that the police may have come across some clothing, and we haven`t -- not heard anymore about that. Have they been able to link those clothing to Caylee or Casey?

GRACE: Yes, Isha, you`ve got an excellent memory, that was at the beginning of the investigation. Not linked to Caylee. Not linked to Casey -- mom Casey Anthony. There was some clothing and a backpack found. Not linked.

Excellent memory.

Out to Angie in Virginia, hi, Angie.

ANGIE, VIRGINIA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

ANGIE: With Casey being a pathological liar, and if she was to confess and they find Caylee`s body, would DNA test or an autopsy confirm or deny her story as to what happened?

GRACE: What about it, Pat Brown, criminal profiler, and author of "Killing for Sport," do you believe that forensics would prove or disprove whatever story Casey Anthony may come up with? Such as the drowning in the swimming pool story.

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "KILLING FOR SPORT": Well, Nancy, at this point, it`s been probably way too long to prove that kind of thing. I do think with all of the circumstantial evidence they have, they can very well prove that this was a homicide.

And I think -- one thing I think people are asking, why are the police looking for Caylee when they know she is dead? Why all these checks? And I can tell you why. Because they`re working toward that prosecution right now, with their evidence that they have, and they`re going to have to prove to the defense and to that jury that they tried everything to find that girl, and they could not find her any place, no matter how many tips they followed.

So that proves that Caylee is not alive. And I think that`s why they`re working so hard on those tips...

GRACE: Well put.

BROWN: . they don`t believe in.

GRACE: Out to our producer standing by at the Anthony home there in Orlando, Florida, Natisha Lance.

Natisha, I was listening carefully to what the police said today. They mentioned that they believe that many of the 5,000 tips they have received are actually smoke screens. What did they mean by that, and why?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, they feel that a lot of these tips are coming in from people who think they may have seen Caylee, however, they are not actually Caylee.

And a lot of these tips, too, have come from the Anthony household, from the Anthony family, that being turned over to police. But they`re coming from different areas. They`re not following along the same line of facts that police actually have, so they are smoke screens, as Captain (INAUDIBLE) described, because they are not leading them to Caylee.

GRACE: Out to John in New York, hi, John.

JOHN, NEW YORK RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. Your children are beautiful. I just wanted to ask, we saw a lot of the Web sites that Casey had visited, and most of them were escort services and sex sites. Have they looked into her possibly working as an escort?

GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, there were hits on sex sites and escort services. What about it?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Well, the investigators haven`t -- you know, had said if they suspect that she was involved in that -- any kind of that business. But we do know she was searching -- doing missing person search sites, and they`ve also said that she was looking up for information on chloroform.

So, you know, these all add to the investigation and stuff they`ve compiled and, you know, now used all of that to call her a suspect today.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Katie in Maryland. Hi, Katie.

KATIE, MARYLAND RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

KATIE: OK. My question is, isn`t it possible that she could have taken on the identity of this Zenaida Gonzalez, you know, like the dual personality type thing, in this crazy mind that she has?

GRACE: You know, Caryn, that`s an excellent question. It`s almost like we heard earlier from another tape, audio tape, she does take on the identity of each boyfriend she is with. One is religious, she`s religious. I think that was Jesse Grund. One smokes pot, she spokes pot.

You know, whomever she is with, she is like a chameleon and becomes like them. But I don`t see her rising to the level of a Sybil split personality-esque defense.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: I don`t think so, Nancy, although it is a very, very good question. This is somebody who -- the reason she takes on everybody else`s personality, her boyfriend`s, is because she has no true personality of her own.

However, she used this woman as part of one of her weaving pathological lies that she does, and she came up with a name and then put it in very craftily to weave the story.

GRACE: You know, she has such an elaborate story about Zenaida Gonzalez. Tonight with us we have the Zenaida Gonzalez attached to Sawgrass Apartment and her attorney out of Orland. He knows his way around the courtroom, John Morgan is with us.

John Morgan, you have filed a lawsuit against mom Casey Anthony. FYI, she was siphoning gas from her parents` car. She could not fill up a tank of gas. Not that there is anything wrong with that. She hasn`t worked in God knows when.

Do you really think you`re going to get any type of a money settlement or money judgment against her that you can enforce?

JOHN MORGAN, ATTORNEY FOR ZENAIDA GONZALEZ, HANDLING DEFAMATION SUIT AGAINST TOT MOM: Well, the first and foremost -- this is really not about money. This is about.

GRACE: Well, that`s good, because there is not any.

MORGAN: Well, this is about Zenaida Gonzalez`s good name.

GRACE: True.

MORGAN: Now, however, remember this. There`s all sorts of rumor and rumblings -- there is rumors and rumblings that they may have received significant money from a network for licensing fees. There is rumors of a movie deal. There are rumors of, you know, all sorts of offers.

GRACE: Well, John, you`re very wise, John Morgan. "Lifetime" has denied any such suggestion that they have a movie in the works. But I can guarantee you, by the time this is all over, somebody will make a movie related to this.

You`re absolutely correct about that.

MORGAN: Well, I know -- I know for a fact, magazines have been approached by members to receive money.

GRACE: By members of what?

MORGAN: Of her team to receive moneys. And first and foremost, though, if there`s never a dime to be had, Zenaida Gonzalez gets to stand up on a platform that Casey Anthony put her on, and say, you know what, you put me up on this platform, and now I`m going to clear my good name.

GRACE: Is it true, Miss Gonzalez, that you have actually received death threats?

ZENAIDA GONZALEZ, MISSING TOT CAYLEE`S ALLEGED "BABYSITTER": Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: What happened?

GONZALEZ: Well, they call me. They call me about -- because my number went out public.

GRACE: And said what?

GONZALEZ: And they called and -- and they called me and told me what they`re going do to me or do to my kids what I did to the little girl. And that whenever they see me, they`re going to hurt me. It`s been crazy.

MORGAN: And also, Nancy, part of her profile that we`ve found interesting is like the Susan Smith. When Susan Smith killed her kids, the first thing she said is a black man took the kids.

Now they come in and say this Puerto Rican nanny came in. She kind of played this race card right off the bat to kind of inflame the public. And I think that all plays into her profile.

GRACE: Well, John Morgan, attorney out of Orlando, and Miss Zenaida Gonzalez, I wish you the best and I`m sorry for what you`ve been through, Miss Gonzalez.

GONZALEZ: Thank you.

GRACE: Everyone, at your request, here are some pictures I took of the twins. Here they are at the park. Here they are swinging. Yes, we found the swing set here in Manhattan. That`s the traffic rushing by behind them.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: 911 Emergency, what are you reporting?

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: A drunk driver?

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: Where at?

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: At the Live Oaks Road and -- what is this -- is this East Valley Road? East Valley Road and Live Oaks Road in Montecito. The person is a woman. She just pulled over.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: What direction on Live Oaks, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: She is pointing south, right, at East Valley Drive. Can I give you the plate number?

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: Sure. What kind of car is it?

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: It`s a black BMW (BLEEPED).

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: What are they doing?

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Well, they`re just -- she was drunk at this -- we were at the market. She was drunk in the market, she got in the car, and then we saw her pulled over. She is now pulled over, and she is walking -- she wandered up and down the street, but now she is back in the driver`s seat.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: Alrighty. You said she -- so she is pulled over to the right or to the left?

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: She is on the right side.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: OK. Hold on.

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Oh, she is revving her engine. What is she doing?

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: What is your name, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: My name is Jill.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: OK, Jill, we`ll notify officers in the area. We`ll put a broadcast out for the vehicle. I need you to maintain a safe distance away. Are you following the car?

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: We`re following her. It looks like she`s just revving her engine.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: OK. I need to ask you to stop following the car. We know where they are and we have a license plate. OK, we don`t want to.

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: What`s that?

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: We know where they are, and we have a license plate, so you guys need to stop following, because the minute that she thinks that you`re following, it -- you`ll be a danger to her if she thinks that you`re following her and she might run into something.

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Oh, OK. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: All right, thanks a lot.

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: Good bye.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Heather Locklear busted for allegedly driving under the influence.

Out to Tom O`Neil, senior editor with "In Touch Weekly," what happened, Tom?

TOM O`NEIL, SENIOR EDITOR, IN TOUCH WEEKLY: Well, it was about 5:00 Saturday night. Heather was driving from this market to.

GRACE: First of all, 5:00 is not at nighttime. Number one.

O`NEIL: That`s true, absolutely.

GRACE: OK, go ahead.

O`NEIL: OK, good point.

GRACE: So was it dark?

O`NEIL: No, no, it wasn`t dark yet but.

GRACE: OK.

O`NEIL: And she`s been acting erratically, driving back and forth over a pair of sunglasses in the parking lot of this store.

GRACE: That`s not a crime.

O`NEIL: It`s a BMW, black BMW.

GRACE: That`s not a crime to drive over some sunglasses?

O`NEIL: No, not at all. But then she gets in the car and she starts -- she pulls over at one point and she`s out staggering in traffic, as you heard in that one call there, according to the description.

But that`s not what everybody is quite concerned about, Nancy. It`s that there is now a belief that this concerned citizen who made this call might be a cause of concern herself.

The -- there is an allegation that she made a second call right after this, to a paparazzi agency. There is the suspicious that she has ties to Heather`s love rival, Denise Richards, and there is evidence that she`s under investigation by the FBI.

GRACE: Whoa, it`s complicated.

O`NEIL: Very complicated.

GRACE: So Tom O`Neil, what`s the connection between the 911 caller, the female caller, Jill, and her love rival, Denise Richards?

O`NEIL: Well, Jill Ishkanian used to work for "Us Weekly" magazine. She was actually a tabloid reporter. She left there to start her own photo agency that just coincidentally had a lot of pictures of Denise Richards that were for sale.

So that suggests a chummy relationship between the two of them. So for her, of all people then to be -- happen to be calling the police, catching Heather in this naughty moment, well, it seems suspicious.

GRACE: OK. Let`s unleash the lawyers, Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka -- weigh in, Renee.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I want to know if the police actually saw Heather driving. If it`s only this woman that saw her driving, they`re going to have trouble.

GRACE: Alan?

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It doesn`t make a difference who called the police, if, in fact, she was under the influence of something, she`s going to be responsible and guilty of the crime.

GRACE: Ripka, you`re absolutely correct. Regardless of any nefarious intent behind the original phone call, somebody wanted to get a picture of Heather Locklear, somebody has a grudge against Heather Locklear, don`t care.

If she were under the influence at that time, that`s the problem. I don`t care who called it in. I`m glad she called it in. It would have been a lot worse if Locklear had run over somebody or crashed into a tree or hurt yourself.

With me right now Lieutenant Dane Lobb from the California Highway Patrol, Santa Barbara.

Lieutenant, thank you for being with us.

LT. DANE LOBB, CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL, SANTA BARBARA: Thank you for having me.

GRACE: Lieutenant, what happened? I`ve got the bare bones of the police report here. It`s my understanding it was not alcohol-related. That she passed a breathalyzer on the scene.

LOBB: Well, you have a press release.

GRACE: Right.

LOBB: You don`t have a police report, because I have the original police report here in front of me.

GRACE: Right. It just says Department of California Highway Patrol, it looks like a police report. But I notice there`s not a police report number on there. There`s not a DOB, it`s not signed by an officer, so clearly, it`s not an authentic police report.

But if you could answer the original question.

LOBB: It`s a news release. Yes, it`s a news release.

GRACE: OK. I`m glad to get that settled. Did she pass a breathalyzer?

LOBB: Yes, she did.

GRACE: So it was not alcohol. What then do police believe is the substance under which she was under the influence?

LOBB: Well, we haven`t identified what substances or substance or substances she had ingested. But we believe that she was under the influence of controlled substance.

GRACE: What did the police observe when they arrived at the scene?

LOBB: They found Miss Locklear in her vehicle, in the driver`s seat of her vehicle, stopped within the traffic lane, sitting there in her car.

GRACE: And what, if it anything, did she do to suggest she was under the influence of drugs or alcohol?

LOBB: Well, just like you would expect, the police, when they show up and they find a vehicle stopped in the middle of the road, were going to ask, why are you stopped here in the middle of the road, what`s going on?

And the -- when our officer conducted that investigation, Miss Locklear`s answers were clearly -- made it that she was not coherent and able to answer routine questions in a manner that a sober or prudent person would be able to answer questions.

GRACE: To Marvette Britto, PR brand strategist of the Britto Agency - - Marvette, didn`t she just come out of rehab?

MARVETTE BRITTO, FOUNDER, BRITTO AGENCY: She did. She just came out of rehab. And this is clearly an incident where she relapsed. And -- she needs to get help and perhaps she was stopping to gather her thoughts, to collect herself.

GRACE: But the rehab was allegedly for anxiety.

BRITTO: Well, whatever the anxiety was, whatever the issue was, she`s spiraling in public. So clearly there`s a problem. There`s an issue that needs to be addressed.

And like you said earlier, you know, thank God this caller did call in, because clearly she needed help and she hadn`t called anyone to help her.

GRACE: Marvette Britto joining us from the Britto Agency here in New York.

To Dr. Marty Makary at Johns Hopkins -- Dr. Makary, how easy is it to take too much prescription medication?

DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: Well, the medication is given to patients with anxiety and depression. And by definition, those are people at risk for overdosing.

Look, Xanax and these other anti-anxiety medications are highly addictive.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAMMER: Heather Locklear busted under suspicion of DUI.

Back to Tom O`Neil with "In Touch Weekly." It`s my understanding this is her first offense.

O`NEIL: Yes, her first offense. But we`ve had hints, Nancy, that there were serious problems with substance abuse before.

GRACE: Did you say you`ve heard?

O`NEIL: Yes. Well, back in March there were reports that her psychiatrist called paramedics to the house when it was believed that Heather was -- had overdosed, that it was later denied that there was an obviously suspicion scene there.

And our sources at the magazine tell us that when she went into the rehab in Arizona for depression and anxiety, we heard from her friend.

GRACE: Well, Tom O`Neil, as much as I respect you and your magazine, "In Touch Weekly," sources at the magazine don`t come into court. I`m asking you.

O`NEIL: OK.

GRACE: . did she have a record, the answer is no. Correct?

O`NEIL: Correct. Absolutely.

GRACE: OK. Back to Lieutenant Lobb with the California Highway Patrol, Santa Barbara.

Lieutenant Lobb, was she -- cooperative with you?

LOBB: Yes, ma`am, she was very cooperative.

GRACE: You know, I -- I`ve seen the pictures of the arrest. She was standing on both her feet. Did she do one of the test where you walk the line or say your ABCs?

LOBB: She did. She did what`s called modified position of attention. She did standing on one foot. She did a walking test. And she was -- had a great deal of difficulty completing any of the tests in a safe manner.

GRACE: Marvette.

LOBB: And caused the officer great concern.

GRACE: Marvette Britto, very quickly. You know you do a sex tape or get a DUI in Hollywood, it only skyrockets your career. What will this do to her?

BRITTO: Well, I think Heather Locklear is, certainly, America`s sweetheart. She really needs to get help. And I think we need to hear from a representative as to why she exhibited this irrational behavior.

GRACE: Everybody, let`s stop and remember, Army Specialist Arturo Huerta-Cruz, 23, Clearwater, Florida, killed, Iraq. Awarded the Purple Heart, Army Achievement Medal, and Order of the Dragon, one of the highest honors for members of the chemical corps.

A grad of St. Petersburg College. Loved soccer and adventure. Dreamed of becoming a citizen. Leaves behind parents Pascual and Maria, brother Humberto.

Arturo Huerta-Cruz, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you, and tonight, a special good night from Atlanta friends of the show, Cleo, Charlotte and Tristan.

See you tomorrow night -- oh, he`s precious -- until tomorrow, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/01/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

Jesse Grund's interview on the Today show today.

Matt Lauer - You have cooperated with the police, talked to, questioned, all of that, correct?

Jesse - Taken a polygraph, whole nine yards

Matt - And since they are now calling KC "the" suspect in the case, they clearly don't think you have anything to do with Caylee's disappearance

Jesse - Absolutely not I've been a witness and help to their investigation

Matt - why don't you tell me more about KC. You've had a on and off relationship with her. You were engaged to her for a short period of time between the end of 2005 and the beginning of 2006. What was she like...what made you fall in love with her?

Jesse - KC when I first met her she carried herself not like a 19 yr old girl - we were 19 when we met. She was very energetic, she had a sarcastic sense of humor. She's very smart, she was very fun to be around. She was just the type of person everyone was attracted to.

Matt - Lot of people who have been connected to this case or have observed this case and what she's done since her daughters disappearace have said that KC has a problem with the truth - some have gone as far as calling her a pathalogical liar - did you see evidence of that failure to tell the truth when you knew her?

Jesse - at the very end of our relationship, absolutely

Matt - In what way?

Jesse - At the very end she started to lie about things - I was one of the ones she stole money from. She stole $250 from me and then made up an excuse why she couldn't pay me back. Or made up excuses why she couldn't go places with me - found out she was actually seeing someone else at the end of our relationship

Matt - In 2005 she sent you a text message saying I'm pregnant, and it's your baby. You did the math so to speak and thought it was pretty much impossible to be your baby, however, you still did go with her you basically were there at the hospital when Caylee was born...what was she like as a mother?

Jesse - she was a very good mother, she was very doting, she was devoted...Caylee was the center of her universe

Matt - So you saw no signs that she was having trouble coping with being a mom?

Jesse - Absolutely not...not at the beginning of our relationship, not when Caylee was a baby, there was no indication that she was having any problems at being a mother

Matt - Let me make sure I make the point that after you finally - there was a paternity test

Jesse - Yes

Matt - And it proved that there was zero chance that you were the father of that baby

Jesse - I petitioned her paternity test and it was zero percent probability

Matt - And yet you still enjoyed a very close relationship at that time even though she told you it was your baby you knew it wasn't, you tried to have a relationship with her

Jesse - Absolutely, my attitude was until the paternity test comes out I'm not gonna waste time and miss out if this really was my child

Matt - You talk about a transformation at the end of your relationship with KC - what was that transformation about, what do you think brought it on?

Jesse - Well she was a very doting and devoted mother as I said. She was very much into being a homebody and loyal and she was wanting to spend the rest of our lives together. She started to pull away and it started becoming about her and she started to party and drink - this lifestyle that we've now seen pictures of out there. And then the line started to become - she was getting very close with her mother. She wasn't very close with her mother at the beginning of our relationship, and as soon as she started getting close with her mother, it started transformation.

Matt - When you hear "the" suspect that the police down there think that KC is "the" suspect, can you envision her as someone who would cause harm to her daughter?

Jesse - The KC I knew - no but obviously who knows the real KC - I think only she does. I think her personality has been so changed and molded over the years, I don't even know if she knows who she is

Matt - And if KC by some chance is watching this interview this morning, what would you say to her?

Jesse - KC tell the truth - this isn't about you anymore, this is about Caylee, stop dragging people lives through this. Stop destroying people's lives and tell the truth. What happened to Caylee cause we're all done with it - we're all done with having to listen to your lies and your stories that make no sense over and over again - so tell the truth about what happened.

Matt - Jesse Grund - Jessie thanks for coming in this morning we really appreciate it.

End of interview

From Websleuths transcribed by Honeydolll:

[Tamikosmom]

AUDIO STATEMENT - CASEY ANTHONY - JULY 16TH

Casey Anthony Audio Recordings, Part 1 on Fox News
http://www.foxnews.com/video-search/m/20911078/casey_anthony_audio_recordings_part_1.htm?pageid=31961


AUDIO INTERVIEW - CASEY ANTHONY - JULY 17TH

Casey Anthony Audio Recordings, Part 2 on Fox News
http://www.foxnews.com/video-search/m/20911502/casey_anthony_audio_recordings_part_2.htm?pageid=23043

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Casey Anthony`s Ex-Fiance Speaks Out

Aired October 2, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 15 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. He was set to marry tot mom Casey Anthony, even named as the biological father on little Caylee, but with accusations flying that he kidnapped 3-year-old Caylee, Jesse Grund finally breaks silence. Tonight, Grund makes a public plea for mom, Casey, to stop the lying and report what really happened to little Caylee. This as tot mom, Casey Anthony`s, defense team publicly and brazenly announces she will not tell police what she knows about her daughter`s disappearance, claiming, quote, "It`s not in her best interest."

All the while, a report emerges a woman similar to mom, Casey, was spotted leaving a heavily wooded area near Orlando International Airport. And we learn police call off searches for little Caylee, signaling their belief the little girl is dead. Tot mom, Casey Anthony, named the prime suspect in the disappearance day two. As mom, Casey Anthony, enjoys her freedom tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is a suspect.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct. She is the -- our person that we continue to go to and hope that she will step forward finally, that she will wake up and say, Let me provide the information to bring this to an end.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: I have, like, seven pages of stuff that I asked him. You know how Lee is doing it? I did the same thing with Jesse because he was my first -- he was my first person I thought of that had a motive, that could intimidate Casey enough to keep her mouth shut and that would threaten us because he`s that type of person.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: Do I believe it`s possible that someone -- that Caylee did have a nanny and Casey had lied to her enough about her family that she thinks that she`s protecting them right now, that she thinks she`s protecting Caylee? I don`t see why not. We can all tell that from the last couple years, Casey is a very effective liar. I think I`d use the word "diabolical" to describe the way she lies.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She had the child. She was the last one to see the child, and we want to know what information she had that is valid, that is factual, that is credible, not just what she has fabricated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, police and now the feds on high alert for not one, not two, not three, four children kidnapped in Missouri, all four classified as being in extreme danger.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities are frantically searching for four Missouri children who are believed to be in extreme and imminent danger. Police say the four children were abducted by their own mother, 39-year-old Shirley Riggs (ph), who does not have custody of any of the children. According to cops, Riggs was having an unsupervised overnight visit with the children when she put them in a 1992 Dodge Caravan and fled the area.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s been setting up this house all summer to get the children, and it keep gets delayed and delayed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not the first time Riggs has taken the children, with reports saying this is now the fourth time she has taken them, the first three times out of state. Police are now on the alert in Denver, Colorado, and Oklahoma, hoping to find Riggs and return the children to safety.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) the information lead us quickly to some valid information, and she has not done so.

CINDY ANTHONY: He was in my home every day, and I got to know him and I got to see his anger and rage. He took it out on me one day a couple times while they were engaged. And from the day Caylee was born, he was in her life and he stayed in her life off and on. And Casey doesn`t -- she gets very, like, Stay away from him, Mom, like, that kind of thing. And even if you guys watched our taped interview, I asked her specifically about people, and she -- every -- the only person she said, Don`t talk to, she said, Stay away from Jesse. And she looked frightened when she said that.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mom blurts out something kind of puts you in an embarrassing way. Can you tell me about that again?

GRUND: Her and Casey started having an argument about something, and I stuck up for Casey. I said, Please don`t do this while I`m here. Don`t talk to her like that. You know I love your daughter.

And then she immediately just throws Casey under the bus, in proverbial terms, just lays her out there, How do you want to be with somebody who`s got no future? She didn`t even go back to get her high school education. You know, She`s got a -- she got a job at a place where she doesn`t really even make enough money to support Caylee. I`m doing -- I`m the one supporting Caylee.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But no one`s forgetting about Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, of course not. That is -- that is the paramount reason why we`re here today is, is to make sure that we can find Caylee. What is her status? Where is she? How can we find her?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: So much happening in the search for little Caylee. Right now, to Kathi Belich with CNN affiliate WFTV. Kathi, what can you tell me about an alleged sighting of a woman with a baseball cap pulled down over her head leaving a heavily wooded area near the Orlando International Airport?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, what we know is the woman was leaving work sometime between June 20th and June 28th near the Orlando airport, and she said she noticed a car that was like Casey`s, she later realized, that belonged -- she thought it belonged to a friend of hers, which is why it caught her attention. When she got closer to it, she saw some markings and some bumper stickers that she knew were not on her friend`s car, so she was relieved her friend wasn`t in trouble.

But as she drove away, she noticed someone slight of build with a baseball cap and some athletic-type wear walking out of the woods, and she thought it was odd because it`s not an area, she said, where anyone would be jogging or anything like that. Of course, that was before Caylee had been reported missing. After Caylee had been reported missing, she saw the car on the news and she saw Casey on the news, and she put two and two together and thought maybe that was Casey. So she told investigators about it, and they have searched that area.

GRACE: Kathi Belich, precisely, to the best you can tell us, where is the area?

BELICH: It is to the south of Orlando International Airport. It`s sort of a secluded road. Once again, not the same secluded road where they have searched in the past that we`ve already reported on. But it is sort of a secluded road. Even during the day when we were there, which is when this woman believed she saw possibly Casey, there was not a lot of traffic on that road.

GRACE: So let me get this straight, Kathi Belich, because the timing of her sighting is very, very important. We all know that as soon as little Caylee was reported missing, the next day, essentially, mom, Casey, went to jail. She was in jail for a period of time. So was the sighting reported after Caylee went missing, but she saw the incident before?

BELICH: Well, this was in the time before any of us even knew that Caylee was missing.

GRACE: Gotcha.

BELICH: So it was during the week after Caylee had disappeared, and obviously, you know, that was during the month before we knew and Casey...

GRACE: Got it. Got it. An incredible story, if it`s true, if there`s no mistake. What do you make of it, Mike Brooks?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: One of the things they can do, since they do have a timeframe between the 20th and 28th of June, they can go back, check her cell phone records and see if there`s any pings in that particular area if she had her phone on.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer standing by in Orlando. It`s my understanding that the pings led them to the Orlando International Airport area.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s correct, Nancy. According to earlier reports, there were some pings in that area near the Orlando airport, and that is how police were led to that area to do their searching.

GRACE: Back to Leonard Padilla. Everyone, you know Padilla, the bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California. What do you make of this sighting?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, it`s easy enough, like Brooks said. You can start with the 18th, if you want, and you know that the car was at the house. On the 20th is when she probably was out of gas and her and Tony went and broke into the shed, which is also Friday night. And then you go to the next week, which is the 23rd. The 24th, the car was seen at the house by George. You go to the 25th and the 26th. The morning of the 27th, the car was out of gas, parked in the check cashing lot. So after that, you don`t -- you don`t look for the car.

But the one thing that we`ve started working on, just two days ago, we got a complete list of all of the phone calls and the towers that they bounced off of. And one of the things that`s very interesting is how Casey thinks. On the morning of the 27th, Tony had said that he went down to the Amscot, picked her up. She had some groceries. Well, on that particular morning, there`s a little timeframe in there when she called her mother, she called Amy, she called Jesse.

GRACE: Everybody, also, we all know the name Jesse Grund, the former fiance that was told he`s not only the biological father of little Caylee, but then, suddenly, accusations began to fly that he was involved in her disappearance. Take a listen to what he has to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRUND: She was a very doting and devoted mother, as I said. She was very much into being a homebody and loyal. And she was wanting to spend the rest of our lives together and starting to plan it. And she started to pull away, and it started to become about her and she started to party and drink, this lifestyle that now we`ve seen pictures of out there. And then the lying started to become -- she was getting very close with her mother. She wasn`t very close with her mother at the beginning of the relationship, and then as soon as she started becoming close with her mother, it started a transformation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: NBC`s "Today" show, ex-fiance Jesse Grund, expressing frustration over Anthony`s behavior toward the end of their relationship. He is speaking out after being named as the kidnapper.

Now, not only did Grund speak out, but now we learned that brazenly and openly, mom, Casey Anthony`s, defense team has said point blank their client, Casey Anthony, is not going to tell police what she knows. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: It does her no good to show her cards, to give the prosecution any advantage that they have in putting her away for the rest of her life, which is what they`re trying to do. They can`t get what they want through the front door, so they`re trying to sneak in the back door.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Jose Baez on NBC "Today" show.

You know, I find that very disturbing. To Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor in Atlanta.

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: You`re completely right, Nancy. It`s just shameful that she won`t tell anything. What it points to to me is that she`s guilty of something. Otherwise, why wouldn`t she tell what she knows about her missing child?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: And I got to know him and I got to see his anger and rage because he took it out on me one day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GRUND: Her and Casey started having an argument about something, and I stuck up for Casey. I said, Please don`t do this while I`m here. Don`t talk to her like that. You know, I love your daughter.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I think that Zanny, at this point, was a real person in the beginning. But I think Zanny is now whoever`s watching Caylee.

I think Zanny could either be Amy or Jesse, at this point

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Instead of looking at the prime suspect in her own household, she wants you to think that it`s Jesse or it`s Amy. And she talks about Jesse discrepancies. He clarified one statement with law enforcement. Cindy hasn`t said the same thing twice since this began.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight back out to Kathi Belich, CNN affiliate WFTV reporter. Kathi, what can you tell us about searches going on in the Orlando area?

BELICH: Well, there was an area that we just talked about that was another remote area near the Orlando International Airport. There`s another search that also actually took place in an area not far from the Amscot, where she had abandoned her car. That area, as I understand, she had frequented quite often. It is between the Amscot and not far from her parents` home, so it would be an area she would frequent. But she was in that area quite often during that month that Caylee was gone, before we knew it, and so they`ve also searched that area.

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Andrea in Pennsylvania. Hi, Andrea.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you tonight?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good. I`m a little confused here. Who is and where is little Caylee`s father in all that`s going on?

GRACE: Right now, the biological father, to my knowledge, has never been publicly named.

To Nikki Pierce with WDBO. In fact, Casey Anthony has told many, many tales about who the bio dad is.

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: There have been several different versions of the story, including, early on, that Jesse Grund was the father, which we know not to be the true because he took a paternity test. She said -- she has variably said that it was a one-night stand, that it was somebody who she knew from childhood. And her mother says that it`s someone who moved out of the state to Kentucky or Tennessee and she only knew a first name, so...

GRACE: And then she went on to state he was killed in a car crash. Then she went on to say he was killed in a car crash on his way to Caylee`s birthday party. Then she stated, let`s see, wasn`t it that a security guard at Universal might be the father. I mean, it could be anybody. But I do know it`s not Jesse Grund.

And speaking of Jesse Grund, here`s what he has to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRUND: At the very end, she started to lie about things. She was actually -- I was one of the ones she stole money from. She stole $250 from me and then made up an excuse why she couldn`t pay me back or made up excuses why she couldn`t be places with me. And I found out she was actually seeing someone else at the end of our relationship.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s ex-fiance Jesse Grund on "Today." Casey Anthony pleads not guilty to multiple fraud and theft charges, including her so-called best friend.

Now, let me ask you this, Natisha Lance. Has she been charged with stealing from Jesse Grund?

LANCE: No, she has not been charged with that. I don`t believe that they have even pressed charges for that. But actually, Richard Grund said something interesting to me before. He said that when he called Cindy Anthony about Casey stealing this money from Jesse, she said, Well, she only did it one time. So this is something that was a habit of Casey`s and the family apparently knew about it. And they weren`t doing anything about it at that time.

GRACE: To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, joining us from LA, also author of "Deal Breakers." Bethany, the lawyer comes out and states publicly, it does her no good to show her cards, to give the prosecution any advantage. They can`t get what they want through the front door. It says it`s not in her best interest to cooperate with police and tell what she knows.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: To me, it just seems that through the legal system, yet one more person is colluding with this young woman. Nancy, the way she lies, she floods other people with so many details that they can`t even think. She just spins them around and around. And what we`ve seen with the Anthony family, and in particular with Cindy Anthony, is that they`re halfway in and halfway out of the lies. In a sense, they`re colluding with her.

And then Jesse Grund comes in, and Cindy Anthony actually says that Jesse Grund is the only one who could manipulate Casey. Manipulate her? Even the investigators can`t get the truth out of her. I think this is a case of shooting the messenger because the messenger is speaking the truth.

And back to Jose Baez. I know this is a legal maneuver, but from a mental health perspective, it`s one more grand collusion with this pathological liar.

GRACE: To the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Penny Douglas Furr out of Atlanta, and Peter Odom, defense attorney out of Atlanta. To you, Penny. The defense attorney states very brazenly, it`s not her best interest to tell police what she knows about her daughter`s disappearance.

PENNY DOUGLAS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The defense attorney should just straight out say no comment because anything she says could be twisted, could be turned. If it were my client, I wouldn`t let her say a word. I wouldn`t let her speak at all.

GRACE: But Peter Odom, if she knows where Caylee is, why would they come out and announce, We`re not cooperating, it`s not in her best interests?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I would think that you`d find it refreshing that a defense attorney is coming right out and not mincing words and...

GRACE: I`m not talking about him. I`m talking about the prime suspect, mom, Casey Anthony, putting her own interests above those of her daughter.

ODOM: Clearly, that`s how she has lived her life and...

GRACE: That is your answer?

ODOM: ... she should come out and say what she knows, but legally...

GRACE: Eleanor?

ODOM: Legally, she shouldn`t.

DIXON: Well, you know, Nancy, it`s just another piece of the puzzle that isn`t getting answered right now. But I think, in a sense, it`s telling us volumes. She`s speaking volumes by her silence. She know what`s going on.

GRACE: Well, for him to come out and state, Mike Brooks, it`s not her best interests to tell police what she knows about her daughter`s disappearance -- so even now, they`re admitting she`s stonewalling, that everything -- they`re admitting everything she said is a lie.

BROOKS: Absolutely, Nancy. And you know, I mean, they said that they`re going around the back door. No. It`s called an investigation. That`s what these detectives have been doing. You know, you got a witness list now of 82 people, Nancy. Thirty-five of those people on that list are law enforcement officials. So they`re baking her a good cake. And I hope that they wait and let it settle. There`s no hurry. They`re making this case and they`re going to make it. They`re going to wind up charging her sooner than later.

GRACE: Back to Penny Douglas Furr, defense attorney. Penny, what do you make of this eyewitness who spots a woman similar to mom, Casey Anthony, baseball cap, coming out of a heavily wooded area?

FURR: Well, where`s the woman been? Where was she...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... they searched the area.

FURR: Why is she just now calling in? This happened months ago.

GRACE: No, she`s not just calling in, Penny. She called in several weeks ago, but we`re just learning about it. I`m talking to you about eyewitness testimony.

FURR: Oh, you`re saying this woman called in and said someone who looks like her came out and she remembers it.

GRACE: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

FURR: Has she reported it? Did she take the tag number? How does she know it`s Casey?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I did the same thing with Jesse because he was my first -- he was my first person I thought of that had a motive, that could intimidate Casey enough to keep her mouth shut and that would threaten us because he`s that type of person.

GRUND: Typical Cindy Anthony, point the finger at somebody else, do misdirection, get the attention off your daughter and hope that people believe you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Jesse Grund, former fiance, speaking out, demanding that mom, Casey, tell the truth regarding her little girl, this while a new search reportedly has taken place. And a sighting comes to light, a sighting of a woman very similar to mom, Casey Anthony, emerging from a heavily wooded area near the Orlando airport, baseball cap pulled down, going toward a car similar to mom, Casey`s.

Kathi Belich, describe the car again?

BELICH: She said it was a white Pontiac Sunfire and she knows that because a friend of hers drives a white Pontiac Sunfire. It caught her attention because she was worried. It was parked in the median. She was worried that perhaps her friend was having car trouble.

She said that when she got closer to the car, she saw some bumper stickers, she knew that it wasn`t her friend`s car. And again, you know, as she drove away, and saw a woman. Now, I did find out that she reported that to our local crime line number on September 4, when she started to put the pieces together in her mind that maybe it was connected.

GRACE: So she reported it fairly soon after seeing it. I want to go to Dr. Michael Arnall, board-certified forensic pathologist joining us out of Denver. OK, this was in September. There has been massive rain there in Florida. The temperature has fluctuated. If there were remains in that heavily wooded area, what would you expect to find?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: If the body`s on the surface, small animals may have torn the body up. Flies may have eaten part of the tissue. If the body was buried under the ground, there may well be forensic evidence, the remains, that would allow you to conclude what caused the death of Caylee.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The 22-year-old tot mom Casey Anthony is a suspect in the disappearance of little Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: So she is a suspect?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: One top investigator tells me it`s fair to say they are far more suspicious of Casey Anthony in connection with her daughter`s disappearance than anyone else so far connected with this case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have the one individual that can provide us the information, lead us quickly to some valid information, and she has not done so.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: The man named as Caylee Anthony`s biological father and then accused of being her kidnapper, breaks his silence. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATT LAUER, CO-ANCHOR, TODAY SHOW: Casey is the suspect. Can you envision her as someone who would cause harm to her own daughter?

JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCEE: The Casey that I knew, no. But, obviously, we -- who knows the real Casey? I think only she does. I think her personality has been so changed and molded over the years, I don`t know if she knows who she is.

Casey, tell the truth. This isn`t about you anymore. This is about Caylee. Stop dragging peoples` lives through this. Stop destroying peoples` lives and tell truth.

What happened to Caylee? Because we`re all done with it. We`re all done with having to listen to your lies and your stories that make no sense over and over and over again so tell the truth about what happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is Anthony`s ex-fiancee Jesse Grund on NBC "Today." Mom Casey`s attorney has said she does not know where Caylee is and then states she`s not going to tell police what she knows. So those are both diametrically opposed.

We are taking your calls live. To Sherry in North Carolina, hi, Sherry. Hi, Sherry.

SHERRY, NORTH CAROLINA RESIDENT: Hello?

GRACE: Hi, dear.

SHERRY: Yes. I have a question.

GRACE: OK.

SHERRY: It`s actually a two-part. When Casey Anthony started Googling Zenaida Gonzalez, does that coincide with the time spent when she looked at that apartment at Saw Grass Apartments?

And, she also led cops to that apartment she supposedly said Zenaida Gonzalez lived. Have they ever inspected that apartment? Maybe she was in there and harmed the child or.

GRACE: Interesting question, Sherry.

I want to go to Natisha Lance. I`m sure the police have inspected the apartment, correct, and found it vacant?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s correct, Nancy. That apartment was vacant long -- for quite a while, actually. Nobody had lived in there for months.

GRACE: OK. And to Nikki Pierce with WDBO -- Nikki, what can you tell me about the date that someone was Googling Zenaida Gonzalez on Casey Anthony`s computer?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: That search was found to be performed on July 16th. That was the day that Casey went to jail. So if it was earlier in the day, it may have been Casey or later on in the day it may have been Cindy trying to figure out -- or George, trying to figure out what`s going on.

GRACE: A question I have is it`s day two after mom Casey Anthony has been named the prime suspect in Caylee`s disappearance. Why is she still at home kicked back watching TV at her rent-free parent`s home?

Let`s unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Penny Douglas Furr and Peter Odom.

What about it, Peter Odom?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it`s not uncommon for suspects to be on the loose. Remember, she has not been charged with any offense involving harming that child. The term suspect is an investigative term, not a legal term, Nancy.

GRACE: You know, it`s interesting, Eleanor, the defense attorney also made his statement that there`s absolutely no difference between a person of interest and a suspect.

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Well, I think there is, Nancy. I think suspect.

GRACE: Yes. There`s a huge difference.

DIXON: . such -- that are point to it. Yes. Exactly. And I think they`re coming out and saying this -- and it`s just a matter of time, Nancy, at the this point. We`re just building up that puzzle piece by piece.

GRACE: Penny Douglas Furr, explain the constitutional rights that attach once someone has been named a suspect.

PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, once she`s been named a suspect, they won`t be able to go and question her. They can`t just go and get information from her.

But, Nancy, if there is such a difference between person of interest and suspect, what is the difference between yesterday and today? What information did they find that took her from person of interest to suspect? So I would like to know from them what made the difference.

GRACE: Well, you know, I appreciate your hypothetical question, Penny. But I doubt we`ll be able to open up the state`s case file until trial time.

I want to go back to Eleanor Dixon.

Eleanor, once someone has been named a target or a suspect, they have a -- myriad of constitutional rights that then protect them.

DIXON: Exactly. Most importantly, the right to remain silent and, as Penny mentioned, the police cannot go and question her unless they Mirandize her and she agrees to talk voluntarily.

GRACE: So, Peter Odom, why would the defense attorney make such a gaffe?

ODOM: About saying that she`s not going to say anything because it wouldn`t be in her best interest?

GRACE: No.

ODOM: Because he`s telling the truth.

GRACE: We`re now talking about his comment that there`s no difference between the person of interest and the suspect.

ODOM: Because those are investigative terms and really a person of interest can invoke fifth amendment rights just as a suspect can. Legally, he is exactly right.

GRACE: Eleanor, agree?

DIXON: Well, I`m not going to agree with a defense attorney, Nancy. I think, suspect, again, is telling you exactly what it is. And we all know what that means and a indictment is probably on the way.

GRACE: A suspect invokes constitutional privileges that a person of interest title does not. It is extremely important in a legal sense.

Back to the lines, to Jackie in Tennessee, hi, Jackie.

JACKIE, TENNESSEE RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: Good, dear. What is your question?

JACKIE: I just have a quick question. Last night, I don`t remember if it was during -- when Cindy Anthony called the police or when it was during her police interrogation, but she has said the last time she saw Caylee was on June 7th, and I thought the last time she has seen Caylee was Father`s Day.

Am I misunderstanding.

GRACE: No. You`re not misunderstanding. She was mistaken. As was mom Casey Anthony and her statements to police, Jackie, they were last seen -- she was last seen alive the weekend of Father`s Day weekend which was June 16th.

Both of them -- well, I know Cindy Anthony later admitted that since she had her weekends confused. I find it very difficult to understand, Dr. Bethany Marshall, how a mother can confuse the last time she saw her daughter alive.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": It is so hard to imagine but I can speak from Cindy Anthony`s perspective, when you raise a pathological daughter -- a daughter who`s a pathological liar who lies in such elaborate ways, floods you with details, spins you around so you can`t even think, so you start to go along with the lies, pretty soon you`re not only colluding but you become co-conspirator in a crime, not in -- from an emotional perspective but from an emotional perspective because you`ve made so many accommodations along the way.

So she could have been brainwashed by her own daughter and then represent the delusion she`s drawn -- gotten drawn into to the investigators.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Kay in Florida, hi, Kay.

KAY, FLORIDA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

KAY: Just keep doing what you`re doing, honey. Fight for these kids.

GRACE: Thank you. What is your question, dear?

KAY: I was wondering, nobody has mentioned anything about the undercarriage of her car. Have they done anything underneath there to check for anything?

GRACE: You know, interesting question.

To Dr. Michael Arnall, since her story was her father ran over an animal which created the stench in her car.

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes, you know, it`s easy enough to get one of those little roller carts and roll underneath a car and see if you find hair or residue.

But I got to tell you. Having heard the stories from the witnesses that say they got hit by this wave of odor, one has to believe that it`s not possible that a rabbit or a squirrel or some small animal could possibly cause that wave of malodor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: He was in my home every day and I got to know him and I got to see his anger and rage because he took it out on me one day. Couple times while they were engaged, and from the day Caylee was born, he was in her life and he stayed in her off and on.

And Casey doesn`t -- you know, she gets very, like, stay away from her mom, like that kind of thing . And even if you guys watch out taped interview, I asked her specifically about people and she`s -- the only person she said don`t talk to, she said stay away from Jesse and she looked frightened when she said that.

I have like seven pages of stuff that I asked him. You know how Lee is doing it? I did the same thing to Jesse because he was my first. He was my first person I thought of that had a motive. That could intimidate Casey enough to keep her mouth shot and that would threaten us because he`s that type of person.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: 39-year-old Shirley Riggs lost custody of her children due to a complicated legal loophole during divorce proceedings from her husband.

Due to her frustrations, she took her children to Oregon and New Mexico without the court`s permission two other times. And in fact, she served six months in prison for it.

Police say during an unsupervised overnight visit at her house, she put the kids in a maroon Dodge Caravan like this one with Missouri plates MB6 C8m and drove off without telling anybody.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My daughter is a wonderful person, a wonderful mom. Couldn`t be a better mom than my daughter. She loves her kids. She takes good care of them. She`ll do for them before she`ll do for herself.

She panicked. She went to her lawyers the day before she left because she was afraid that she was going to lose them. She`s been setting up this house all summer to get the children and it keeps getting delayed and delayed.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Out to "America`s Most Wanted" correspondent Michelle Sigona.

Michelle, what`s happening with these four children?

MICHELLE SIGONA, CORRESPONDENT, AMERICA`S MOST WANTED: Well, right now, Nancy, investigators have no clue where they could be. They think that, possibly, she had taken them to either Oklahoma where she was originally from, also New Mexico, because she had taken the children there previously or Denver, Colorado, where we do know that she does have a friend for sure.

But at this point, since April 2006, this is the fourth abduction of these children at this time and this mom has also served jail time, Nancy. I mean, she served jail time six months last year -- last time that the kids were taken in October of 2007.

So here we are again and investigators do believe that because of her stress and the mental state that the children could be, you know, possibly hungry and not meeting their educational needs and that they do need to find these children and bring them home.

GRACE: Does she have a mental history, Michelle?

SIGONA: Well, I did ask her mom that and what her mom tells me is that while she was married to Raymond, her husband, who she`s still married to at this time -- they`re not formally divorced yet -- that she was taking Zoloft for some depression.

And I asked about -- you know, because I read reports that said she was bipolar. And I asked her mom that, and her mom says, absolutely not. She was not bipolar. I actually spoke with one of her friends, John, as well.

And I actually spoke with another person that she works with at the Angel Lady Place in town, in Independence, and what they all say is that she`s a very nice, quiet person who just wants to protect her children.

GRACE: Joining me tonight, the father of the missing children and his attorney. With me, Raymond Riggs and Attorney Phil Zuspan.

Gentlemen, thank you for being with us. Mr. Riggs, when did you last see your children?

RAYMOND RIGGS, FATHER OF FOUR MISSING CHILDREN: It was the week prior to the abduction.

GRACE: Why does she get to keep seeing them, Mr. Riggs, if she`s made off with them before?

PHIL ZUSPAN, ATTORNEY FOR FATHER OF MISSING CHILDREN: Nancy, we want the thank you for this opportunity to bring public awareness to these missing children. Unfortunately, we`re under a gag order.

GRACE: Oh.

ZUSPAN: With the juvenile case and even though we would very much like to disclose information to the public and helping to find these children, I don`t think we can comment on that.

GRACE: I understand completely. And I knew there was a signal of a distress when Mr. Riggs looked over at you.

Let me ask you this, Mr. Zuspan -- with me, Phil Zuspan, he is the attorney for Raymond Riggs -- the four children are now missing for days. Their non-custodial parent has made off with them. Police say the four children are in extreme danger. The youngest age 7.

Mr. Zuspan, did the court allow her to have visitation?

ZUSPAN: Again, Nancy, even though I very much like to answer that question, I am under a gag order as to what she was allowed to do and what she, you know, was disallowed to do, but she had improperly took the children and she has illegally taken them away from the jurisdiction of Missouri.

GRACE: Mr. Riggs, does your wife have any mental instability that concerns you?

RIGGS: Based on my experiences, and in my opinion, that is a real concern for me.

GRACE: What about it, Mr. Zuspan?

ZUSPAN: That would be my opinion, as well. I`m not a mental health expert, but based upon what I know, in my opinion, Shirley Riggs has serious issues.

GRACE: Why did she lose custody to start with, Mr. Zuspan?

ZUSPAN: Well, I can say that the divorce case that Raymond filed preceded any of these court actions. The reasons why Mr. And Mrs. Riggs lost custody through the legal action of the juvenile case, again, is under seal and we cannot comment about that.

GRACE: Where do you believe, Mr. Riggs, she is headed?

RIGGS: I have no idea. My best guess is just based on previous experiences, Oregon or Oklahoma or possibly New Mexico.

GRACE: Would her family cover for her, Mr. Riggs?

RIGGS: I believe so, yes.

GRACE: Out to the lines, to Sheeba in Illinois, hi, Sheeba.

SHEEBA, ILLINOIS RESIDENT: Hi, darling. My question is, what kind of an extreme danger are these children in?

GRACE: Can you tell us more, Michelle Sigona?

SIGONA: Well, I asked investigators that today. I said, you know, is she -- do you think she`s going to harm the children? They`re just not too sure at this point with her mental state. She`s under a lot of stress. I mean she`s facing charges for the last abduction, Nancy.

And then, also, you know, she was supposed to go to court on Monday for, you know, this current permanent placement of the children. That is why they believe she did take the children last weekend.

And then also, she is going through her divorce so they believe all of those factors combined with the fact that she just wants to protect her kids and that, you know, they don`t think possibly that she may not hurt them but that right now they may not be in a good state.

And I also want to tell you that in a previous case where investigators did find the children with her that they were living in a vehicle and it was very unstable conditions.

GRACE: To the lines, Stacy in Tennessee. Hi, Stacy.

STACY, TENNESSEE RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. My question is, have they checked in those other states for her?

GRACE: Good question.

Mr. Riggs -- Raymond Riggs, the father of the children -- have they checked where she went last time?

RIGGS: I believe so. The information I have is that they have followed up on all the leads and all the successes they had in looking in previous times.

GRACE: When she made off with him before, Mr. Riggs, did she contact you to let you know they were OK?

RIGGS: At -- sometime she has and sometimes she hasn`t.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks, what`s the best avenue now?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, Nancy, it`s good that the FBI is involved. The Independent, Missouri police has asked for the assistance of the FBI. There has been a warrant filed for -- there`s a UFAP warrant, unlawful flight to avoid prosecution.

Now they can also send leads to all the different offices in New Mexico, Oklahoma and Colorado to follow up with agents there, to go to her -- houses of her friends and associates, and interview people there as to what they know of her whereabouts.

GRACE: Michelle, what are the ages and genders of the children?

SIGONA: Absolutely. There`s two boys and there`s two girls, Nancy. And their age ranges from 7 all the way to 14. Rhiannon, who`s 7, Kelly who`s 10, Raven who`s 12, and Spencer who is 14.

All of these children really like to act out and they really like to act in drama, that is. And they all like to play musical instruments and play on the computer. So we just hope that they`re safe tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Out to the lines, Linda in Florida. What`s your question?

LINDA, FLORIDA RESIDENT: Hello.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

LINDA: Yes, I was just wondering if -- I was just 14 and if he felt like he was in danger, does the father feel that he might try to contact someone?

GRACE: To Bethany Marshall, can a 14-year-old be intimidated?

MARSHALL: Well, in some ways -- women that abduct their children are very interested in parental alienation, so they tend to say to the children, your father`s bad. Your father`s bad.

Authority figures are bad in the sense they brainwash their own child. So she`s probably cut out from under him his own ability to make independent judgments and he`s probably terrified to go against her.

GRACE: Everyone, that tip line, 816-325-7258.

Mr. Riggs and to Phil Zuspan, attorney, thank you for being with us.

Let`s stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Jason Brown, 29, Magnolia, Texas, killed Iraq. On a second tour. A Green Barrett, highly decorated, awarded the Purple Heart, Army Commendation Medal. A Sam Houston State grad.

Loved helping others, outdoors, hunting, fishing. Leaves behind parents, (INAUDIBLE) Rosemarie and James, daughter Alyssa.

Jason Brown, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And tonight, congratulations to Atlanta friends of the show, Mark and Shelby. They just welcomed home their newest little crime fighter, baby Beckett. The three of them never missed a show.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8 o`clock sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/02/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Former Roommate of Missing Toddler`s Mother Reacts

Aired October 3, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 15 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Exclusive, for the first time since police named mom, Casey, the prime suspect, Casey Anthony`s roommate at the time little Caylee disappears breaks his silence. He`s with us live. He describes mom, Casey, going about her normal life, cooking, cleaning, partying and enjoying life with her roommate and her live-in lover, all the while showing absolutely no emotion whatsoever over her missing girl. What did mom, Casey, have to say about Caylee? This as the Department of Children and Family concludes its own investigation of mom, Casey, their evidence now in the hands of police. What do they know? Tonight, where is 3-year- old Caylee?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

TONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: What happened was, I was just sitting there with my roommate, Nathan. We were playing video games, and she -- and Casey was sitting there at the couch also, on the laptop. And then all of a sudden, there`s a knock at the door.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She did not mention to us that Caylee was missing. We were under the impression that she was with the nanny.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: Hey.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Hey. Can you give me Tony`s number? Because I called to talk to my mother, and it`s -- it`s a (DELETED) waste. Oh, by the way, I don`t want any of you coming up here when I have my first hearing for bond and everything else. Like, don`t even (DELETED) waste your time coming up here.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LAZZARO: Casey then proceeded to go outside, and was -- me and my roommate went back to playing video games. Then I would say about a half hour later, Casey and her mother, Cynthia Anthony, came to the -- Casey stormed in and looked like she was in tears. And her mom said, Get your things, you`re coming with me. And Casey said, No, I`m coming back. She said, OK, but I`m coming back. And she goes, No, get all your things

When I asked her, Why won`t you, you know, allow us to see Caylee, and she said, Well, maybe I`m a spiteful (DELETED).

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, we are in a verdict watch, NFL Hall of Famer turned double murder suspect O.J. Simpson facing life behind bars in a Vegas armed robbery. At this hour, 13 years ago to the day, the stunning verdict handed down in the murders of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman. And once again, the jury is out. Will Simpson ever see the inside of a jail cell? We are live in that Vegas courthouse.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get off that phone! Get off that phone!

O.J. SIMPSON: Don`t let nobody out this room! (DELETED) think you can steal my (DELETED) and sell it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

SIMPSON: Don`t let nobody out of here. (DELETED) You think you can steal my (DELETED)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (DELETED) you! Mind your business!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at this (DELETED)!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get over there!

SIMPSON: You think you can steal my (DELETED)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Backs to the wall!

SIMPSON: You think you can steal my (DELETED)?

(CROSSTALK)

SIMPSON: I trusted you, man!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t -- I...

(CROSSTALK)

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) guy with the bald head and he turned up (INAUDIBLE) pulled out a gun right next to my ear, and (DELETED). Then it was, like, Whoa! And I got scared myself. I didn`t know if this guy knew who I was or not. I wasn`t sure. And the gun started wheeling around, and it just -- it got crazy from there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to call 911 and tell them (INAUDIBLE)

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Five years to life in prison. That`s what O.J. Simpson faces if he`s convicted on armed robbery and kidnapping charges. His fate is in the hands now of a Las Vegas jury.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LAZZARO: Casey`s brother, Lee, he addresses himself -- introduced himself on the phone and told me what was going on, how she admitted to him that she didn`t know where Caylee was and that she hasn`t seen Caylee for 31 days.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned her.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She seemed like everything was normal. There was nothing that threw any red flags, certainly not on our end, no reason for us to be suspicious of anything. I mean, she went about her business every day. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary. She always seemed like she had a smile on her face.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: Anyway, you only got a couple minutes with us, so I`m not going to let you completely waste it. Here`s Christina (ph). She thinks she can get through to you.

CASEY ANTHONY: No! No! I want Tony`s number! I`m not talking to anybody else!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello?

CASEY ANTHONY: Do me a favor. Get me my brother back because I need Tony`s number.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did Tony have anything to do with Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, Tony had nothing to do with Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh. So why do you want to talk to him?

CASEY ANTHONY: Because he`s my boyfriend and I want to actually try to sit and talk to him because I didn`t get a chance to talk to him earlier because I got arrested on a (DELETED) whim today because they`re blaming me for stuff that I never would do, that I didn`t do.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey, you have to tell me if you know anything about Caylee.

CASEY ANTHONY: Sweetheart...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If anything happens to Caylee, Casey, I`ll die! Do you understand? I`ll die if anything happens to that baby!

CASEY ANTHONY: Whoa. Oh, my God. Calling you guys? A waste. Huge waste. Honey, I love you. You know I would not let anything happen to my daughter. If I knew where she was, this wouldn`t be going on.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Speaking of a waste, that was tot mom Casey Anthony on the phone, showing absolutely no emotion whatsoever over the loss of her daughter, just anxious to talk to her boyfriend when she`s behind bars.

And tonight, for the first time, out of the shadows, speaking after mom, Casey`s, arrest, her roommate at the time of little Caylee`s disappearance. Nate is joining us live out of Orlando, Florida. Welcome. Thanks for being with us.

NATE, FORMER ROOMMATE: Hi, Miss Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. I`m a little confused as to why she has not already been arrested in the disappearance of her little girl. But how stunned were you when you found out all this time she had been cooking and cleaning and playing house with you and your roommates, her little girl was allegedly vanished?

NATE: I mean, as you can imagine, it took us -- you know, us there at the apartment, by surprise. I mean, she was going about her daily business, you know, as Tony`s girlfriend. Like I said previously, she was cooking and cleaning and just doing normal girlfriend-type stuff, and we assumed that the child was with the nanny, like she had said. And it never dawned on us at the time that she was missing. And certainly, when we did find out she was missing, it was pretty much a shock to us.

GRACE: Nate, when you say normal girlfriend-type stuff, I`m not quite sure what you mean by that. Could you give me a day in the life of mom, Casey Anthony, while little Caylee is missing? What would she do all day?

NATE: Well, we`re in class and...

GRACE: Take it from the beginning, in the morning.

NATE: In the morning, she would usually -- if she had happened to stay the night, she would usually leave first thing in the morning. Where she would go to, we weren`t exactly sure. We assumed that she was going to, you know, check on her daughter or to go see her daughter or whatever.

We usually take off for class between 9:00 or 1:00 PM in the afternoon, depending on our schedule for the month, and we`re in class, like, four to eight hours a day. So during the daytime, I can`t really attest too much as to what she was doing, whether she was working or not working. But in the evenings, you know, she would come over. If Tony came home from class later in the evening, she would, you know, have dinner ready for him. I mean...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Like what? She was -- did she have a key to the apartment?

NATE: No, but usually -- we were all on opposite schedules, so usually, Cameron (ph), myself or Tony was home at some point throughout the day. And if one of us was home, she was allowed to be over there.

GRACE: OK. And then what would happen? She would come in with groceries and start cooking?

NATE: Yes, ma`am. On certain days, she would come in with groceries and she would...

GRACE: Like what?

NATE: ... cook meals. You know, pasta dishes. I think she made -- I want to say she made tacos one night or quesadillas. I can`t quite remember. But I know she made pasta one evening.

GRACE: And during all these meals, when everyone would sit down together and talk, never once did she mention, My daughter is missing.

NATE: No, ma`am.

GRACE: When did you find out Caylee was gone?

NATE: We found out Caylee was missing when the brother, Lee, had called to arrange to come pick up the remainder of her things that were still at the apartment. When he arrived over there, he told us, you know, that they could not locate Caylee, that they weren`t -- that they were not sure where she was at.

And then the second time we heard of that was later in the evening, when the deputies came back over there to search our apartment to, make sure that the child was, indeed, not in our apartment. That was when we kind of got a real sense of the gravity of the situation.

GRACE: What did detectives tell you?

NATE: They told us that Caylee had been missing, apparently, she had been missing for some time, and that they were there to do a search of the apartment to make sure that we were not harboring Caylee or hiding Caylee in the apartment, that she was not in the apartment there with us.

So they came in there and did a routine check, you know, searched the house, searched through every room and every closet, every cubbyhole and everything. And then you know, at that point, we kind of got an understanding that this has become a much more serious situation.

GRACE: What was Tony Lazzaro, her lover at the time`s, reaction when he found out for all this time he had been sleeping with a woman who claimed her daughter had vanished into thin air?

NATE: I mean, Tony -- the first part was utter dismay, then a little bit of anger at some of the details that have come out, you know, about certain things that he was...

GRACE: Such as what?

NATE: ... lied to -- you know, about her job, her education, just certain things that she had lied to him about.

GRACE: Her education. What about her education?

NATE: You know, she said that she had a college degree, and we`ve since learned otherwise. To the nature of her actual education, I`m not exactly sure of the extent of her education, but it wasn`t what she had originally told Tony. And it`s just certain things like that that have, you know -- have angered him a little bit. But it`s utter dismay and a little bit of -- I mean, obviously, sadness for how did he not notice what was going on, or how did he not see. I think that`s what he struggles with most.

GRACE: Did mom, Casey Anthony, ever tell Tony Lazzaro her version of what became of Caylee?

NATE: No, ma`am, not to my knowledge.

GRACE: Why?

NATE: That I do not -- I can`t even begin to make a stab at an answer for that. I have no idea why she did not tell him.

GRACE: Have you guys been in communication with her since she got out of jail?

NATE: No, ma`am.

GRACE: Why?

NATE: Tony, at this point -- he is, you know, fairly upset about this whole situation. I`m not sure whether or not he wants to actually make contact with her at this point.

GRACE: And does he feel betrayed?

NATE: Yes, ma`am. Absolutely.

GRACE: In what sense?

NATE: Just that, you know, here`s a girl that he did like, that he was seeing, that, you know, he was very much into, and he finds out it was all, you know, a web of lies, pretty much, and he`s been kind of catapulted into the middle of this.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LAZZARO: She actually used to say that she didn`t -- that she was getting ready to not live at her house anymore with her child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where was she going to go?

LAZZARO: No particular place.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

LAZZARO: She was just looking to move out because she was 22 and wanted to get her own place.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: Hey.

CASEY ANTHONY: Hey. Can you give me Tony`s number?

LEE ANTHONY: I -- I can do that. I don`t know what real good it`s going to do you, at this point.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, I`d like to talk to him anyway.

LEE ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I called to talk to my mother, and it`s -- it`s a (DELETED) waste. Oh, and by the way, I don`t want any of you coming up here when I have my -- my first hearing for bond and everything else. Like, don`t even (DELETED) waste your time coming up here.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LAZZARO: What happened was, I was just sitting there with my roommate, Nathan, we were playing video games, and she and Casey were sitting there at the couch also, on the laptop. And then all a sudden, there`s a knock on the door. And I said, Come in. And there was Amy, just standing there with a miserable face. And we all looked confused.

And then Casey then proceeded to go outside, and was -- me and my roommate went back to playing video games. Then, I would say about a half hour later, Casey and her mother, Cynthia Anthony, came to the -- Casey stormed in and looked like she was in tears. And her mom said, Get your things, you`re coming with me. And Casey said, No, I`m coming back. She said, OK, but I`m coming back. And she goes, No, get all your things.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: With us tonight, a special guest speaking for the first time out of the shadows, the roommate of mom, Casey Anthony, at the time her little girl went missing. You were telling me how her boyfriend, her live- in, feels betrayed. What were you saying?

NATE: I was just saying that, you know, I mean, Tony`s a young guy that`s down here to go to school, met a nice girl, you know, seemed like she had a lot of things going for her, going -- you know, she had a job over there at Universal, going to college to get a degree and everything. So he started seeing her, and then has wound himself up in this situation, where it seems like everything that she had told him is a fabrication. And yes, I would say that he feels pretty betrayed.

GRACE: Just curious, what did she say she was getting her degree in?

NATE: I do not recall. She said she was attending Valencia Community, but I do not recall what specifically her degree that she was attaining was in.

GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx at WDBO. What is the truth regarding her education?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: That, you know, after high school, she didn`t really get much education. Seems like a lot of the stuff that she was telling these boys was a lie, including, you know, her education, where she was working, how she was getting money, and you know, now what she was doing with Caylee.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, standing by in Orlando. Did she complete high school?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: No, she actually did not complete high school.

GRACE: And all this time, she wasn`t been working, she`s just been lying around on various people`s sofas. She couldn`t go get her GED?

LANCE: That`s correct. Actually, Cindy mentioned that in an argument that she had with Jesse Grund. She said, Why would you want to be with somebody who can`t even go back and get her high school diploma? She can`t even support her daughter. I`m the one who provides for her daughter, Caylee.

GRACE: Out to the lines. To Alisha in Utah. Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show and respect you so much.

GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is about the woman who saw the white Pontiac Sunfire and the woman coming out of the wooded area.

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is that a match to Casey`s car? And also, she said that the car had bumper stickers. Did Casey`s car have any bumper stickers?

GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. What do we know?

PETRIMOULX: Well, that report comes from one of our local TV stations down here, and it said that somebody around the time that Caylee went missing was seen parked near the Orlando International Airport. And we know that police have searched with cadaver dogs in that area. And that person was suspiciously coming out of that wooded area, and it was suspicious because that`s not an area that you would normally see people jogging. We`ve also talked to investigators, and they kind of, you know, not really making it positively -- positively searching that area, so...

GRACE: I believe the question was about the car. Liz, can you pull up a picture of the vehicle? Natisha Lance, tell me about the car itself.

LANCE: A white Pontiac Sunfire, Nancy, which fits the description of Casey`s car, as well. As far as the bumper stickers, we`re not sure if Casey`s car did have bumper stickers on it or not. But police have processed that vehicle and they are looking in this lead, as well.

GRACE: You`re seeing a shot of Casey Anthony`s car. In a moment, we`ll give you the back-end shot. To my knowledge, there are no bumper stickers on the car. In fact, the woman who spotted the car first thought it was her friend`s car. That`s why she became aware of it. But it did not have the bumper stickers her friend had. So that`s what first drew her attention to it, Alisha in Utah.

Out to Jeff Gardere, Dr. Gardere, psychologist and author of "Love Prescription," and actually, a whole line of books. Dr. Gardere, what do you make of her sitting down with all of these friends, having a normal life, never mentioning Casey (SIC) was gone -- Caylee was gone?

JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, this is something that we see with sociopaths. They have no guilt. They`re living in their own reality, and their feelings are very much distanced from what really is happening in life. So we see almost an anesthetized kind of life, where you just don`t know what`s really happening with other aspects of their day-to-day living. So I`m not shocked by this at all, Nancy.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla. Everybody, you know Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California, who first posted a $500,000 bond to get the tot mom out of jail. He then came off that bond.

Mr. Padilla, thank you for being with us. I know that DFACS, Department of Family and Children`s Services, has completed their investigation as of today. What were they doing there? You were there, in and out of the home, at the time they were first investigating.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, when they came to the home, we didn`t realize that it was family services. We thought it was just some law enforcement people. And basically, they ran down about 40 minutes of questions to her regarding her child, living conditions, how she got along with her child, just your normal questions a social worker would question a mother about. There was nothing there confrontational, like law enforcement or something to that effect. Fact is, law enforcement came in right on the heels of this individual and ended up talking to Cindy.

GRACE: Leonard, why do you believe the searches for the remains have been called off by police?

PADILLA: I believe that law enforcement is pretty much convinced that the child cannot be found, shall we say, in a normal place where somebody would have buried her or put her in a -- under a tree or something to that effect. It`s either the landfill, or she put her into a pond, where an alligator has done their thing.

GRACE: Everybody, we`ll be right back. We`re taking your calls live.

But we need your help on tonight`s Amber Alert, the search for a 2- year-old toddler girl vanishing, northwest Detroit, Tagena Hussain reported missing by her mom`s live-in from a local gas station. The live-in says he the girl in the car while running inside. When he returned, the girl gone. Tagena, 3 feet, 35 pounds -- look at her -- black hair, last seen wearing a long-sleeved brown T-shirt and white cargo pants. She had on gold sandals. She is beautiful. If you have information on this little angel, please call Detroit police, 313-596-1240.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LAZZARO: She would wake up and -- or wake me up either in the middle of the night, or I would just wake up in the middle of the night and see that she was sweaty in bed. And I would ask her why. And she said that she would have nightmare -- she was having a nightmare or something, and that would bring up a nightmare pertaining to our relationship.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So how often did she wake up like that?

LAZZARO: Actually, she would actually be -- I would say that happened a couple of times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

LAZZARO: I would say maybe two, maybe four times.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: We`re taking your calls live, and we are also live at that Vegas jury deliberations on O.J. Simpson.

To Susan Moss, Doug Burns and Crystal Matthews (ph), all veteran trial lawyers. To Susan. Weigh in on Caylee.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: She may cook and clean, but we know she`s a fiend. This woman puts the con in confidence. She`s able to look at the police and come up with such lies. They`re intricate. They`re planned. But if we put witnesses, they will -- you know, and there`s a trial, they`ll never stand.

GRACE: Doug Burns, what about the fact she did not get Miranda when she first spoke to police before she was a suspect?

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I mean, it boils down to whether she was, you know, being interrogated while in custody. I`m not really sure whether it`s going to matter because the statements aren`t really a flat-out admission of guilt. But it`s a good point you make.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANTHONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: The grandmother since made a comment to me while I was sitting on the couch, because she was ringing at the door, and I said, yes, hello -- because I`ve seen pictures of the woman, but I never met her, so I was, you know, being friendly, like, hello, you can come in, like, because she was waiting at the door.

And she came in, and she`s goes, "I hope you`re rich, because Casey is going to take all your money and leave you high and dry." And me and my roommate were just looking at her like, wait, what? What? What are you talking about? Like, because I had no idea about her with, I guess -- her -- I guess the whole situation with the mother, Amy, and Casey were about the money situation.

I guess that`s what they talked about, because that`s why I guess Amy was there with the grandmother. But -- so that happened and she said that, and then Casey said shut up, and they -- she stormed outside, and the grandmother followed her.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: That`s right. All hell broke loose when grandmother, Cindy Anthony, shows up to bring mom, Casey, home without little Caylee.

Tonight, she has been named the chief suspect in her daughter`s disappearance, but still no arrest on those charges. This as DFACS wraps up its investigation of her treatment of the child.

Tonight with us, Nate, the former roommate of mom Casey Anthony at the time little Caylee goes missing.

Let`s unleash the lawyers again. You know, Crystal Matthews, defense attorney out of New Orleans, Louisiana, I disagree with Doug Burns wholeheartedly.

No, in her comment, she didn`t come out and say I did it, but her comments are so full of lies. Her lying about where her daughter is, clearly, that would impact a jury if those statements came in.

CRYSTAL MATTHEWS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s correct, Nancy. But my belief is that at this time.

GRACE: At the time, what?

MATTHEWS: At this time, she should do her best to consult with her lawyer and to assist in the case as well as possible, but always considering her own constitutional rights. At this time, she is a newly-named suspect in the case, which changes her status. So she definitely needs to be.

GRACE: Susan Moss, what do you think about the statements?

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Oh, the statements are awful, and they`re really going to hurt her. If this goes to trial, you can bet that Casey is not going to testify.

But the words that she has said to others, including these initial interviews are definitely going to come in, and it`s going to be like she is, in fact, taking the stands, and it is going to crucify her.

GRACE: Let`s go to the lines, to Christine -- Christina in Wisconsin. Hi, dear.

CHRISTINA, WISCONSIN RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy, I love your show, and your twins are beautiful.

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you, very much. What`s your question, dear?

CHRISTINA: My question is about Casey`s first body guard, a while ago he said that he would only talk to the police if he had immunity. And I was wondering if anybody knew what he had to say.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, wasn`t that a female security agent named Stacy or Tracy? What happened with that?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: That`s correct. Basically, every now and then, like today, she came by. And, you know, every now and then I`ll talk to her and she`ll open up about a few things that she has not received any immunity.

GRACE: Like what?

PADILLA: Well, today about the -- the day that the welfare worker went by there, she talked about that for a minute.

GRACE: What about it?

PADILLA: Just basically the same thing that I told you, that they asked her a bunch of welfare type questions, social worker type questions. And that was about the extent of that visit.

GRACE: Out to Donald Schweitzer, former detective with Santa Ana PD joining us out of L.A.

Donald, thank you for being with us. How important is the testimony of, for instance, Nate, the roommate who is with us tonight or the boyfriend, the live-in, Tony Lazzaro?

DONALD SCHWEITZER, FMR. DETECTIVE, SANTA ANA PD: Nancy, Nate`s testimony is so important because he`s the one guy that doesn`t have a motive or bias to lie. I mean he doesn`t know her that well and he is also going to be talking about Lazzaro and his involvement or lack of involvement. So he`s probably a key witness.

GRACE: I want to go to a renown medical examiner and author, "When to Call the Doctor," Dr. Joshua Perper is with us tonight. He`s joining us out of Miami.

Dr. Perper, it`s an honor to have you on with us.

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": Thank you.

GRACE: Dr. Perper, you heard earlier the speculation that police have called off search for Caylee`s remains because they do not believe she will be found, for instance, buried in the woods, heavily wooded areas, around the home, around where the car was abandoned.

But maybe in a landfill. How difficult is it to find remains in a landfill?

PERPER: Well, it`s very difficult, but today there`s instrumentation, which can go several feet inside the ground, without actually entering the ground, and they can discover remains this way.

I don`t know if they used this kind of equipment because I know we have it in Broward County.

GRACE: Dr. Perper, it brings to mind the case of Lori Hacking, whose husband murdered her when his web of lies fell apart and placed her in a dump -- it was a landfill -- and there were only remnants of her body, I believe, some hair and some bone.

Why is it -- why do you find the body so -- mangled? It`s no longer together in a landfill. What happens in a landfill that it`s different from being in a wooded area?

PERPER: Well, it`s -- probably in a landfill, there are much more critters who basically attack the body and eat it. And therefore, all the connection and the tendons between different organs are basically melting away as a result of this kind of faction, plus the decomposition.

So the body basically dismembers naturally as a result of both the decomposition and attack by animals which are in the soil.

GRACE: And also, Dr. Perper, isn`t it that true that in a landfill you have trash or refuse, garbage being poured on constantly, and moved around, raked around, and so as the body decomposes, it`s also being jostled around.

PERPER: Yes, correct. Because these -- some kind of displacement of the earth, so different parts of the body can be basically scattered.

GRACE: Have you ever had a body that you examined or remains of a body that had been in a landfill or a dump or a trash can?

PERPER: Yes, because some people who went to the area -- some of the people who were working there discovered them. And, again, you cannot predict in advance what stage of decomposition.

But in this case, the body was missing for quite a number of months, so it`s likely that under the circumstances, the stage of the decomposition would be advanced.

GRACE: Was that body that you observed, was it intact?

PERPER: Largely intact, yes.

GRACE: You know, very quickly, to Susan Moss, Doug Burns, Crystal Matthews -- first to you, Susan, and she sat by, and cooked a pasta dinner for her live-in and his roomies while the body could be decomposing in a landfill, Susan Moss?

MOSS: It`s just -- it`s beyond reason how somebody can be so callous about their child. I don`t even.

GRACE: Doug Burns, what is the mode of death penalty in Florida?

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The what?

GRACE: What is it, lethal injection down there?

BURNS: Yes, it`s lethal injection. But, Nancy, I`ll tell you what. You can`t argue in a courtroom she was cavalier and cooking pasta, ladies and gentlemen, so find her guilty of murder. You can`t argue that.

GRACE: You know what, that wouldn`t be what I would argue.

BURNS: I would say -- yes.

GRACE: If I were arguing for the state, what I would argue is, come death penalty phase.

BURNS: Right.

GRACE: . the degree of mercy she showed her daughter while she was -- enjoying her pasta dinner she cooked for her live-in, that`s what I would argue at penalty phase.

BURNS: No, no, no, as an aggregating factor, I agree with you. I thought you were talking about at the guilt phase. And all of these lies, they are what they are. But they don`t prove murder.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTINA, CASEY ANTHONY`S FRIEND: Can Tony tell me anything?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TOT CAYLEE: Tony doesn`t know anything. And I haven`t even talked to him since this morning.

CHRISTINA: Has Tony seen Caylee?

ANTHONY: Tony hasn`t seen Caylee since the beginning of June.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: O.J. Simpson, when he walked into the Palace Station on September the 13th, 2007, really had the intent to commit a crime?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get off that phone, get off that phone.

O.J. SIMPSON, FORMER NFL STAR: Don`t let nobody out of this room. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and sell it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

SIMPSON: Don`t let nobody out of.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ladies and gentlemen, this case boils down to one word, and that`s accountability.

SIMPSON: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) You think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) mind your business.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at this (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get over there.

SIMPSON: You think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back to the wall.

SIMPSON: You think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: O.J. started yelling at them, didn`t recognize them for long, and say, man, what do you have my stuff for? He didn`t exactly use the word "stuff," he used another word. I know you guys stole this stuff, you knew I wanted it. You knew this was my stuff, my personal stuff, and he started screaming at them, get real -- and they -- just -- they were like, I`m sorry, Mike took it. And they were pushing the stuff towards O.J.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Right now, everyone is stunned. The jury is refusing to go home for the evening. They are continuing to deliberate the fate of Orenthall James Simpson.

Straight out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent of "In Session." Jean, what`s the latest?

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, Nancy, what we just found out is the jury is asking for dinner. They are not giving out tonight. They are continuing to deliberate.

They started this morning just a little after 8:30. By my calculations, that is nine hours of deliberation. And Nancy, they deliberated through lunch.

GRACE: Did they have their lunch brought into the jury room?

CASAREZ: Yes, they did. And they continued. They opted to continue to deliberate through lunch. It was their choice.

GRACE: Jean Casarez, joining us there at the courthouse in Las Vegas. Jean, is the jury deliberation room right off the courtroom?

CASAREZ: It`s fairly close, yes, it is. And this is the room that they have been in throughout the trial.

GRACE: Can you hear any raised voices?

CASAREZ: Nancy, at this point, we`re not -- no, Nancy. And even if I could, I wouldn`t tell you, OK? But, you know, we`re not even allowed in the room right now. It is locked and we`re outside in the hallway.

But Nancy, there are 12 counts, then there are some lesser included. My calculation, it is now up to 18 counts per defendant, and there are two defendants, O.J. Simpson and C.J. Stewart.

GRACE: So what is the crux of the case, Jean, and has the jury asked any questions or asked to view any of the exhibits?

CASAREZ: No. There are not any questions, there was a procedural question this afternoon, we understand, but the evidence is in there with them. And Nancy, this is truly an armed robbery case, because this is a case that prosecutors say on September 13th of 2007, right here in Las Vegas, that O.J. Simpson and his men went into a hotel room through the use of force, fear and violence, to retrieve the personal property of another.

And under Nevada law, that is robbery.

GRACE: We are seeing video right now of them going by. What a place to commit an armed robbery, at a casino, where every move you make is caught on camera.

To Julianne Thomas joining us from Newsradio 840 KXNT -- Julianne, what is the defense?

JULIANNE THOMAS, REPORTER, NEWSRADIO 840 KXNT: The defense basically is that O.J. did not know what was going to happen. O.J. basically says that it was other people that had planned it. He was just -- his main intention was to go and get his property back, and Clarence Stewart says that he had no part in the planning.

GRACE: Joining us tonight is a friend at Simpson. He testified at trial, Tom Scotto.

Mr. Scotto, thank you for being with us. Why did Simpson, your friend, believe that these items belonged to him?

TOM SCOTTO, FRIEND OF O.J. SIMPSON, TESTIFIED AT TRIAL: Well, they were personal items that were stolen out of his house.

GRACE: Really? Because the items that were taken, many of them, were not O.J. Simpson memorabilia.

SCOTT: Well, I think they all were memorabilia, and I don`t think they were memorabilia, they were personal items.

GRACE: To Jean Casarez, what was stolen?

CASAREZ: Well, there were a lot of footballs that were O.J. Simpson game balls, there were baseballs that were Pete Rose signed baseballs, there were Montana lithographs, another star athlete, there was .

GRACE: OK, hold on just a moment, Jean.

What about that, Mr. Tom Scotto? Were the Pete Rose and Joe Montana items -- did they belong to O.J. Simpson?

SCOTTO: Well, I don`t believe that any of those items were taken out of that room.

GRACE: Well, they were, Mr. Scotto.

SCOTTO: If they were, they were maybe in a box that was not realized that they were there.

GRACE: So did those belong to Simpson?

SCOTTO: If they were Pete Rose balls in those boxes, they did not belong to Mr. Simpson.

GRACE: So.

SCOTTO: But nobody knew they were there.

GRACE: There you have it. Jean Casarez, that`s the defense? That is the defense?

CASAREZ: Well, the defense.

GRACE: I stole stuff that I didn`t know I stole?

CASAREZ: You know, Nancy, the defense here is truly the state of mind of O.J. Simpson. And you could say that it is toward a nullification offense. The emotional aspect of O.J. Simpson, seeing his possessions, and there were testimonies that he said in regard to the other stuff, we`ll bring it back. If it`s not yours, I want you to have it.

Now, the fact is, it was never returned and prosecutors say it doesn`t matter if O.J. Simpson said I`m going to bring it back, because the act of robbery occurred through the unlawful taking of the personal property in the possession of someone else here in Las Vegas.

GRACE: Jean, Jean, Jean, you`re talking like a lawyer. I talked to you about that before. How is the jury responding?

CASAREZ: You know, they`ve responded to both sides. I watched closely during closing arguments. They`ve taken notes through the whole trial, and they were actively engaged, even closing arguments, though, they went for hours, and the jury was still actively listening to everything.

G To Julianne Thomas with 840 KXNT, Simpson`s charms, a lot of the people on his first jury that acquitted him. Today, 13 years ago, did you see eye contact and any charming going on between Orenthal James Simpson and this jury?

THOMAS: Oh absolutely. When -- yesterday when they were leaving the courtroom, you could see O.J. smiling at them. And it seemed like, whoever would make contact with O.J., he would smile at them.

GRACE: Jean Casarez, let me -- let the other foot drop to that. Did the jurors smile back?

CASAREZ: You know, Nancy, I see a very professional O.J. Simpson in that courtroom. I see him (INAUDIBLE) his lawyers, I see him very curious.

GRACE: Yes, no, maybe. Yes, no, maybe.

CASAREZ: I don`t see smiles to the jury.

GRACE: Jean Casarez with "In Session," Mr. Tom Scotto, friend of Simpson, and Julianne Thomas, KXNT, the jury still deliberating.

Tight now, to CNN HEROES.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Heroes.

JOHN LEGEND, SINGER/SONGWRITER: Last year, in October, I visited Mbola, Tanzania. The folks are starting with supreme disadvantage. Most of them are living on less than a dollar a day. It`s difficult for them to even survive. And that`s where I met Mama.

MWADAWA "MAMA" RUZIGA, COMMUNITY CRUSADER: My name is Mwadawa Ruziga. I`m the leader of the group that uses local fruits to make jam, wine and juice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (Through translator): Before I joined the group, my life was at an all-time low. But slowly my life changed for the better.

RUZIGA: We sell our products at different trade shows. Now the members are more educated and the money they make helps them to take care of their basic needs.

LEGEND: I was really inspired by the willingness to not just kind of wait for a handout but really take an active role in helping to uplift their community.

RUZIGA: The group has really lifted my life and give me hope.

LEGEND: Mama Ruziga, she`s a leader. She`s inspirational and she`s one of my heroes.

ANNOUNCER: Get involved, CNN.com/heroes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and more important, the people who touched our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Another shocking development in the case of missing 3-year-old toddler, Caylee Anthony. A spokesman with the Orange County Sheriff`s Office confirmed the 22-year-old tot mom, Casey Anthony, is now a suspect in the disappearance of little Caylee.

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: I think there`s physical evidence, there`s accumulating information that she has not been truthful with the police. And so this is a very challenging case for the defense.

GRACE: A 29-year-old beauty that worked in the futures industry has been found brutally murdered.

To Dr. Marty Makary, a friend of Ginny Orange.

DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: She was the perfect daughter, the perfect friend and a perfect employee.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Authorities are frantically searching for four Missouri children who are believed to be in extreme and imminent danger. The police say the four children were abducted by their own mother, 39- year-old Shirley Riggs.

MICHELLE SIGONA, CORRESPONDENT, AMERICA`S MOST WANTED: Since April 2006, this is her fourth abduction of these children at this time. And this mom has also served jail time.

GRACE: We`ve got a very special guest joining us tonight, the Zenaida Gonzalez that Casey Anthony named as the kidnapper of her little girl.

ZENAIDA GONZALEZ, MISSING TOT CAYLEE`S ALLEGED "BABYSITTER": We need to speak to you (INAUDIBLE) the disappearance of Caylee Anthony.

GRACE: Oh, good lord in heaven. What was your immediate reaction? Had you ever even heard of Caylee Anthony?

GONZALEZ: No. I was in shock.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Lance Eakes, 25, Apex, North Carolina, on a second tour. A military policeman dreamed of being a cop back home, devoted to serving others and Iraqi children.

A member of the International Royal Rangers Ministry, loved kickboxing. Leaves behind grieving parents, John and Tammy.

Lance Eakes, American hero.

Thanks to our guest but especially to you for being with us. And a special good night tonight from the New York control room and happy birthday to one of our superstars, Derek. There he is. Precious, precious, precious.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END



http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/03/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Missing Toddler`s Mother Asks Off House Arrest to Search

Aired October 6, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 16 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Mom, Casey, the prime suspect in baby Caylee`s disappearance, petitions the court to travel in secret, searching for Caylee. Until this, mom, Casey, refusing to cooperate with police, her own attorney even stating publicly she will not tell police what she knows because it`s, quote, "not in her best interests."

What`s her real motivation tonight? The defense demanding action to mom, Casey`s, car, including DNA, hair, chloroform all discovered in mom, Casey`s car trunk. They also want computers, cell phone records, polygraphs. And in the last hour, Texas Equusearch announces it is set to resume searching for little Caylee.

Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened with your daughter, Casey?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where`s your daughter? What have you done with her?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where is Caylee?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: 911. What`s your emergency?

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I called a little bit ago, the deputy sheriff (INAUDIBLE) I found out my granddaughter has been (INAUDIBLE) She has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she`s been missing.

911 OPERATOR: OK, what -- what...

CINDY ANTHONY: ... someone here now!

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything you told us is a lie. You`re looking me in the eyes. You`re looking at -- everything you told us is a lie, every single thing.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: Casey began to break down and cry, and she said, Lee, do you want to know the truth? I haven`t seen Caylee in 31 days.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So she`s either in a dumpster right now, she`s buried somewhere, she`s -- she`s out there somewhere and her rotting body is starting to decompose. No more lies. No more bull coming out of your mouth. We`ve been very respectful. We`re taking our time talking to you. But we`re tired to the lies. No more lies. What happened to Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I don`t know.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey seems to be asking you here if you want her to bring the little snothead. I`m assuming the little snothead to be who?

ANTHONY ROSCIANO, CASEY`S FORMER BOYFRIEND: Yes, the child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, so you believe that when she`s -- when she`s referring to the little snothead here, she`s talking about her daughter.

ROSCIANO: Yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, NFL Hall of Famer turned double murder suspect O.J. Simpson guilty. Thirteen years to the day of his "not guilty" in the murders of Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman, a Vegas jury brings down the hammer in a Vegas armed robbery. Simpson goes down on 12 counts, including armed robbery and kidnap, after he blasts into a casino hotel room with an armed posse, making off with an estimated $100,000 in sports memorabilia, and it`s all caught on tape. Primetime exclusive tonight, a key witness from the trial with us live.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury in the above-entitled action find the defendant, Orenthal James Simpson, not guilty of the crime of murder.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury in the above entitled case find the defendant, Orenthal James Simpson, as follows. Count 1, conspiracy to commit a crime, guilty. Count 2, conspiracy to commit kidnapping, guilty. Count 3, conspiracy to commit robbery, guilty. Count 4, burglary while in possession of a deadly weapon, guilty. Burglary while in possession of a deadly weapon. Count 5, first-degree kidnapping with use of a deadly weapon, Bruce Fromong, guilty of first degree kidnapping with use of a deadly weapon.

Count 6, first degree kidnapping with use of a deadly weapon, Alfred Beardsley, guilty of first degree kidnapping with use of a deadly weapon. Count 7, robbery with use of a deadly weapon, Bruce Fromong, guilty of robbery with use of a deadly weapon. Count 8, robbery with use of a deadly weapon, Alfred Beardsley, guilty of robbery with use of a deadly weapon.

Count 9, assault with a deadly weapon, Bruce Fromong, guilty of assault with a deadly weapon. Count 10, assault with a deadly weapon, Alfred Beardsley, guilty of assault with a deadly weapon. Count 11, coercion with use of a deadly weapon, Bruce Fromong, alternative to count 5, guilty of coercion with use of a deadly weapon. Count 12, coercion with use of a deadly weapon, Alfred Beardsley, alternative to count 6, guilty of coercion with use of a deadly weapon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey, why did you wait four months to say that you want to look for Caylee?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you asked your daughter where`s Caylee?

CINDY ANTHONY: Yes, I did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And where is she?

CINDY ANTHONY: She didn`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why?

CINDY ANTHONY: Because someone took her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our purpose of coming here was to do what, go where?

CASEY ANTHONY: I guess there wasn`t a purpose. There wasn`t a purpose whatsoever to come up here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So we`re wasting time, valuable time that ought to be spent looking for your daughter.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee is missing. Casey, she`d be standing right here by all of us. She`d be out searching, if she could.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One of the reasons Casey is on house arrest for child neglect is because she did nothing to find her daughter, and apparently still hasn`t.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want you to tell me how lying to us is going to help us find your daughter.

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not going to.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Huh?

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not going to.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: Do you think Caylee is OK right now?

CASEY ANTHONY: In my gut, she`s still OK and it still feels like she`s -- she`s close to home.

LEE ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: So I mean, that`s still my -- my best feeling at the moment. Again, if that changes, I mean, obviously, I`m going to reach out and say something immediately.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO Newsradio. Drew, what`s the latest? What do you mean she wants out of house arrest? She should be in jail, number one. But now she wants to get off house arrest and go on a secret search for Caylee? Flashback. Before you answer that question, when she was out on bond the first time, she did not lift one little pinkie, not one finger to help find Caylee, so why now?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: You know, it`s hard to say what she`s thinking inside her head, but the facts are that this Friday at 10:30 in the morning, there will be a hearing in Orange County court, where her attorney, Jose Baez, will argue that his client should be allowed off house arrest and she should be able to search what they`re calling places of interest in this case. You know, a little add-on to that that`s interesting is that they want the times, the places and the dates of these searches to be kept from public knowledge.

GRACE: So what is supposed to be a "place of interest" in this case, Drew Petrimoulx?

PETRIMOULX: I mean, that`s not specified in the motion, but I mean, you could imagine, you know, Casey`s boyfriend`s house, Tony Lazaro (ph), to the places where she said that she dropped off Caylee with the nanny, to the airport, to, you know, some of the search sites would all be places that you would think would be considered places of interest in this case, at least.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. A lot of updates in the search for little Caylee. Right now, mom, Casey Anthony, wants off of house arrest so she can travel freely and in secret to search for her little girl.

Drew Petrimoulx, does this also include out of state?

PETRIMOULX: That`s not specified, either. And you know, what also isn`t -- he doesn`t say if he wants the sheriff`s deputy or any kind of investigators to accompany her, or if he thinks that she`s just going to be able to take a flight out of town and go looking, which you would expect that that would be something that the sheriff`s office and people involved in this case would be, you know, hard pressed to let her do.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight out of New York, family law attorney/child advocate Sue Moss. Also with us out of New York, defense attorney Richard Herman. And joining us out of the Philadelphia jurisdiction, veteran trial lawyer and author of "Prosecutorial Misconduct" Joe Lawless.

Sue Moss, I don`t even understand this. I`ve never seen a motion like this before. You know, she should be on her hands and knees thanking her stars, her lucky stars, she got house arrest. And now this?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Her attempts to travel will be denied by the gavel. There`s just no way. This woman had 31 days, and she did nothing. Where is she going to travel to? Is there going to be another hot body contest in the local saloon? It`s absolutely ridiculous! This judge will say no and it`s deserved.

GRACE: Lawless?

JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I find myself agreeing with Sue Moss. I think the judge is going to deny the application. I think some of her requests for evidence relating to the investigation might be relevant discovery in the charges against her, but I can`t see under any circumstances the judge releasing her to go look for her daughter.

GRACE: Herman?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They`re not going to release her. But why not, Nancy? How could it hurt? Put a GPS on her, make it supervised, and let her go out there and try to do it. We want the child to come back.

GRACE: Yes. You know what, Richard?

HERMAN: How could it hurt?

GRACE: You know, I think she missed one of the barstools at Fusian lounge and bar, OK, because she was under every other barstool in town looking for Caylee. It`s complete BS!

HERMAN: How could it hurt?

GRACE: She needs to go right back home -- well, she needs to be in jail, number one.

HERMAN: Why? It`s a child neglect only, Nancy. They didn`t charge her with homicide.

GRACE: So?

HERMAN: So she made bail. So she`s out on bail. She`s on house arrest, and that`s different.

GRACE: So I disagree. I don`t think she should be out on bail. But you know what? Speaking of bail, let`s go to Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter out of California who first made her first $500,000 bond. What do you make of this motion? Mom, Casey Anthony, she`s not happy lounging on the sofa at home watching "General Hospital." Now she wants out to go search for Caylee in secret.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, my first concern would be that -- we had her out on a bond for I believe it was nine days. And she never once -- never once did she say, Drive me here, or, Call here, or, Go there, none of that at all.

The other thing is, she`s -- she`s made threats through her MySpace and things of that nature. And I`d be concerned that maybe she`d go out there and -- because she wants her position where she`s at during the day kept a secret, that she might rally some support to actually cause somebody some harm. And the third situation...

GRACE: What do you mean she`s made threats?

PADILLA: Well, she has sent threats out like, you know, We`re going to get even with these bastards, especially Padilla, and she`s -- you know, she`s promulgated some of that stuff.

GRACE: Wa-wa-wa-wait. Where did you see this?

PADILLA: It`s on her MySpace to her boyfriend...

GRACE: And exactly what did it say?

PADILLA: As soon as I get out of here, or something to that effect, we`re going to get even with these bastards, especially Padilla.

GRACE: OK. Susan Moss, wouldn`t that be a little bit of a violation?

MOSS: Absolutely. I can`t believe -- that should be brought to the authorities immediately and she should be re-arrested!

GRACE: She is out on bond, and if that is true, that is a violation of her bond conditions.

MOSS: Nobody goes after cowboy Leonard.

GRACE: Well, apparently, she is planning to. What about it, Richard Herman? Take off your defense attorney hat just one moment. Would you let your client get on MySpace and make threats while they`re out on bond?

HERMAN: Nancy, I would not allow a client to do that, but I don`t believe the client did that because I don`t believe Padilla. So I don`t believe it happened.

GRACE: Oh, so he believes, I guess, Joe Lawless, that somebody else hacked into her MySpace and issued threats personal to her.

LAWLESS: ... MySpace page. If I were her lawyer, I certainly wouldn`t allow her to do it, but I don`t know if she`d be crazy enough to do something like that because she`s have to know it would violate her bond. I`d like to see the evidence.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you`re worried that if we find that out that people are going to look at you the wrong way?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned her.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony strutted away from her meeting with her case manager at the jail today, this time no big sunglasses but very heavy eye makeup. Her attorney hopes to convince circuit judge Stan Strickland (ph) on Friday to allow Casey to travel secretly to places of interest in this case to, quote, "assist with the search" of missing child Caylee Anthony. One of the reasons Casey is on house arrest for child neglect is because she did nothing to find her daughter and apparently still hasn`t.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You were just seeing a shot from today, mom, Casey Anthony, going to her home confinement meeting. We are taking your calls live. A lot of developments. Texas Equusearch has now announced it is ready to resume searching for little Caylee. Also tonight, we learned that mom, Casey Anthony, has petitioned the court to travel secretly to places of interest in the investigation. She now says she wants to search for little Caylee.

Is it true -- to Natisha Lance, our producer, who has been in Orlando from the get-go. Natisha, why doesn`t she go to any of the vigils?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, it`s a safety concern. There are protesters out there and they do not want to expose Casey to the wrath of these protesters who have been outside. So she is inside the house, watching but not participating in the vigils.

GRACE: Another motion has been filed to get access to any and all polygraphs that have been administered, and any polygraphs that would be administered in the future. The defense also wants the history of the polygraph machine itself.

Let`s go to the polygraph expert, Jack Trimarco. He is the former FBI polygraph unit chief in LA. Jack, thank you for being with us. What do they mean when they say they want the records on the polygraph machine itself?

JACK TRIMARCO, POLYGRAPH EXPERT: Nancy, as a many time visitor to your show over the years, I`d like to do something I`ve never done before and that is deflect your question for a moment. One of the defense attorneys made a comment about the honesty of Leonard Padilla, and I`d like to just say that from 1978 to 1981, I worked many fugitive cases with Leonard Padilla. I was a young FBI agent then. And when Leonard Padilla gives you his word or says something on the record, you take it to the bank. He`s one of the most honest people...

GRACE: OK, can we talk about polygraphs now?

TRIMARCO: ... I know. Polygraph...

GRACE: You know, you should probably save that for a eulogy or the Kiwanis award.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: Let`s get down to the brass tacks.

TRIMARCO: Hey, it is what it is.

(CROSSTALK)

TRIMARCO: It is what it is.

GRACE: No. I want to know about the polygraph now. I want to find out about why they have petitioned to get the records. It`s like you`re getting the records on a car when you buy your car over at Carmax and you want to find when it`s been lubed. What do they want to find out about the polygraph machine itself?

TRIMARCO: Well, first of all, who took the polygraph? I haven`t heard that anybody`s taken a polygraph test. First and foremost, who took the polygraph...

GRACE: Do I need to ask the cop?

TRIMARCO: Secondly...

GRACE: Can you just...

TRIMARCO: Secondly...

GRACE: ... tell me why you want records on a polygraph machine?

TRIMARCO: Secondly, we want to know, did the police do the polygraph or did a private attorney do the polygraph. All the difference in the world. If the police did it, you`re blowing in the wind. You`re not going to get anything. This is an ongoing investigation. There aren`t going to be any reports that are turned over by a motion blowing in the wind. If it`s a private attorney who has had his client polygraphed, then it`s attorney-client privilege. You`re still not going to get anything. So I have no idea...

GRACE: To Brian Reich...

TRIMARCO: ... what they`re doing.

GRACE: ... the deputy chief at Bergen County sheriff`s office, who would an attorney hope to gain by asking for the records on a polygraph machine?

BRIAN REICH, DEPUTY CHIEF, BERGEN COUNTY, NJ, SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Well, they`re going to want to look at the -- first of all, the certification of the polygraph examiner. They`re going to look at the equipment itself. Has it been calibrated? The software, the use, the procedure. They`re going to want to try to challenge the expert opinion because, a polygraph isn`t a lie detector test. It`s a physiological measurement of a person`s response to the stress of lying. So they`re going to want to challenge that particular polygraph expert`s opinion and interpretation of those physiological responses that the subject made, whether they said they were truthful or untruthful or inconclusive. They`re going to try to challenge that.

GRACE: Out to the lines. To Kellie in Indiana. Hi, Kellie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Nice to talk to you.

GRACE: Likewise. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have two quick questions. Why did Universal Studios fire Casey two years ago? And then lastly, why wasn`t a police sketch ever done of Zenaida Gonzalez?

GRACE: OK. Let`s go to Drew Petrimoulx. Do we know why Universal fired her?

PETRIMOULX: I don`t think we do. And as far as the sketches of Zenaida Gonzalez, one interesting thing about that is I believe there was a sketch, or at least a photo line-up presented to Casey Anthony in the very beginning of the case, and she actually wasn`t able to pick out the Zenaida Gonzalez that we all know now, the one that was on your show a couple nights ago. So that hasn`t been talked about much, but that`s another interesting part of this whole case.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance. Any idea why Universal fired mom, Casey Anthony?

LANCE: That`s not been made available at this point. But going back to Zenaida Gonzalez, there has not been a sketched released at this point because police do not want to send people out on a wild goose chase. Say they give a sketch based on what Casey has said, which most of the things that she said have been lies at this point, they put that out there and they could possibly go after the wrong person.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Susan Moss, Richard Herman, Joe Lawless. Back to Richard Herman. Also, Richard, wouldn`t you as a defense attorney use it at trial when a murder case finally happens, if it ever happens, that the police are putting out a sketch for the kidnapper this far into the investigation, that they even at this point in the investigation believe it`s just a kidnapping?

HERMAN: Yes, Nancy, of course. I would use that any way I could to try to discredit the investigation.

GRACE: What about it, Lawless?

LAWLESS: I think what they`re trying to do is get evidence or discovery now for an eventual murder case. I think some of it`s going to be relevant in the current charges, but I definitely think they`re looking for evidence for, I think, a murder charge that`s going to come.

GRACE: Susan?

MOSS: Zanny nanny. If you were to put out a sketch of Zenaida Gonzalez, somebody who was innocent might get hurt.

GRACE: To Stacy Kaiser, psychotherapist, joining us tonight from LA. We now see mom, Casey Anthony, chafing at the bit at house arrest. How do you read it?

STACY KAISER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: You know, I read it a couple ways. It is possible that she`s trying to sort of establish herself as suddenly interested. It`s also possible that she`s been trying to protect herself all along. Maybe she gave her daughter to someone. Maybe she knows her whereabouts. And maybe she`s been concerned about her own safety or she`s been threatened, and now with the cloak of protection, is willing to go search for her daughter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee is missing. Casey -- she`d be standing here by all of us. She`s be out searching if she could.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You said that Sister told you that, Because I`m a spiteful (DELETED). And did she yell that so Mom could hear it, or did she just whisper that to you, or what was the context of...

LEE ANTHONY: She didn`t whisper it. She didn`t -- she didn`t also say it -- necessarily make it a point to say it as loud so my mom can hear it when I asked her, Why won`t you, you know, allow us to see Caylee, and she said, Well, maybe I`m a spiteful (DELETED)

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, motions filed by the defense for mom, Casey Anthony, demanding the court allow her off house arrest to travel freely and in secret.

To our producer Ellie Jostad. Ellie, explain to me what the other motions are.

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE MANAGING EDITOR: The other motions that they`ve asked for, I think the most significant is they`ve asked to see the chloroform, DNA and hair evidence that was allegedly found in Casey Anthony`s car. They also want one of their experts to be allowed to also independently look at that car, and they want all the computer and cell phone records.

GRACE: Let me go back to the lawyers regarding these motions. What do you make of them, Susan Moss?

MOSS: As Jose say would say, she hasn`t been charged yet in the disappearance of Caylee, so I think most of these motions are premature.

GRACE: Premature. So they`re not ripe yet. Let`s go to Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist. The search is about to resume for Caylee. What can you expect to find at this juncture, Doctor?

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, if, in fact, Caylee is deceased and has been so many months now, I would expect that the body would be decomposed to a different extent depending up on the environmental conditions. But maybe the child is alive. We don`t know.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

O.J. SIMPSON, FORMER FOOTBALL PLAYER: Don`t let nobody outta here man. And you -- I trusted you man.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bag this (EXPLETIVE DELETED)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bag this (EXPLETIVE DELETED)

SIMPSON: Where`d you get all my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) personal (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I bought it from Mike.

ALFRED BEARDSLEY, MEMORABILIA DEALER: Mike sold it, all right? You know.

SIMPSON: Bag this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) up. Bag it. Bag it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you bring the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in man?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They said they were friends of yours.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you bring it in?

SIMPSON: Bulls (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: An the appeal, obviously, is being planned. Simpson found guilty on all charges, 12 in total. His attempt to get memorabilia back from the dealer -- that was his excuse. He could get life in prison when he`s sentenced December 5th. Again, his attorneys planning an appeal.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: It`s been a long time coming, guilty on O.J. Simpson, the former NFL Hall of Famer turned double murder suspect, has finally snagged a conviction out in Vegas after an alleged armed robbery.

To legal correspondent with "In Session," Jean Casarez, what happened in the courtroom when the verdict came down?

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, Nancy, there was stillness, there was absolute stillness, and all of a sudden you start hearing guilty, guilty, guilty for co-defendant Clarence Stewart.

I knew right then and there O.J. Simpson was going to be the same.

GRACE: Joining me is the sports memorabilia dealer who testified at trial and the author of"Busted" Thomas Riccio is joining us in a primetime exclusive.

Mr, Riccio, thank you for being with us.

THOMAS RICCIO, SPORTS MEMORABILIA DEALER, AUTHOR OF "BUSTED: Thank you.

GRACE: Mr. Riccio, what do -- what do you make of the verdict?

RICCIO: I was shocked as anybody. You know, he made some mistakes. He -- at the end after I was done testifying, I realized he did know about the guns and he covered it up. But, you know, I didn`t think he knew about the armed robbery.

I think the guys with the guns sort of did that on their own, and sort of freelanced that play on their own, and -- but he`s paying for it.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Mr. Riccio, are you telling me you do not believe that he knew a gun was involved?

RICCIO: No, no, no, I do believe at this point -- I didn`t up until I testified. At this point I do believe he knew a gun was in the room. He just didn`t know that these guys are going to pull it, I don`t believe that, and commit an armed robbery and steal Joe Montana with those.

But he is responsible for something. I just don`t think he -- as many charges as he got, but they wanted him, and they got him.

GRACE: OK, Mr. Riccio, let me get this straight. Didn`t he bust into a casino private hotel room, with a posse that pulled a gun?

RICCIO: He didn`t bust in. I let him in. And it was.

GRACE: Uh-huh.

RICCIO: It was supposed to be to retrieve his stuff back, but you`re right, it turned into an armed robbery. It definitely did.

GRACE: Can I ask you a question?

RICCIO: Yes.

GRACE: Did Mr. Simpson come into your room.

RICCIO: Yes.

GRACE: . and along with him have individuals that possessed a or some guns, and take items that did not belong to them?

RICCIO: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: OK. That, under the law, is an armed robbery. So which verdict do you have a problem with? Do you think he`s not guilty of?

RICCIO: Well, I mean, after you see the whole picture, which is, basically, you know, he asked the guy to actually act as security for him, and this guy goes out and gets a video, a spy cam to commit an armed robbery.

You know it just seems obvious -- I mean these guys had their own agenda, but, you know, the public wanted him, they got him. There`s nothing anybody can do about it.

GRACE: Well, let me repeat my question, which verdict do you have a problem with?

RICCIO: You know, the conspiracy to commit armed robbery. I don`t think he wanted to -- or armed robbery. He was trying to get his stuff back and he has those guys there as security.

GRACE: Oh really? So, sir, are you telling me that some of the memorabilia you had actually belonged to O.J. Simpson, it wasn`t yours?

RICCIO: No, it wasn`t -- it wasn`t mine. It belonged -- it`s kind of complicated. I realized that, Nancy.

GRACE: Yes, it sounds like it.

RICCIO: It really is complicated. And it`s hard to.

GRACE: So were you selling stolen items?

RICCIO: No, again, you don`t have all the facts. It wasn`t me selling it. I was helping O.J. get it back from these guys who told me it was stolen. And O.J. was supposed to go in there, identify the stuff.

GRACE: OK.

RICCIO: I gave him the option of turning it over to the police or turn it over to him. And it turned it into.

GRACE: To.

RICCIO: It turned into an armed robbery.

GRACE: Yes, because in all those tapes, I never heard anybody talking about going down to the police station.

To Jean Casarez, make some sense out of this.

CASAREZ: Well, first of all, Nancy, according to Nevada law, it doesn`t matter whose property was, even if it was all previously O.J. Simpson`s property, you can`t go into a hotel room with a gun and demand that back.

Furthermore, the fact is, according to the law, it`s very clear what robbery is, and this case fit the elements of the crime. And kidnapping in Nevada can be luring to a location through deceivery and trick, and that was the independent movement. And that`s what constituted the kidnapping in this case.

GRACE: What do you make of Mr. Riccio`s statement?

CASAREZ: Well, what -- Mr. Riccio is -- I consider him a friend of O.J. Simpson. He testified for the prosecution, but I know that he has had empathetic feelings for O.J. Simpson.

The fact is, it doesn`t matter whose property it is, and the fact is they went in with the guns and the jury said we discounted all witnesses altogether. The credibility of witnesses we felt was incredible. We looked at the audio tapes.

GRACE: Joining us right now, Jonathan Polak, attorney for the Goldman family. And they have been unable to get any of the money judgment levied against O.J. Simpson way back when after the murders of Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown.

What do you make of this verdict?

JONATHAN POLAK, ATTORNEY FOR MURDER VICTIM RON GOLDMAN`S FAMILY: It`s wonderful. Justice, finally, for the Goldman Family, but this is something that has been 13 years too long.

GRACE: If anyone is in doubt whether this verdict is justified, take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SIMPSON: Don`t let nobody out of this room. (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and sell it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

SIMPSON: Don`t let nobody out of here. (EXPLETIVE DELETED). You think can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) mind your own business.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at this (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get over there.

SIMPSON: You think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m trying to get the basketball.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Walk your ass over there.

SIMPSON: Think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mike took it. Mike took it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You against the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) wall.

SIMPSON: I know (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Mike took it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Search him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I know what Brian`s trying to prove.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m cool. I am.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stand up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So. So.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) asses up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stand the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to ask you one more (EXPLETIVE DELETED) time.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The doughboy came and got it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Although Mike sold this to Bruce, man. He sold.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, O.J., you know all about this stuff.

SIMPSON: No, man. You all didn`t know about this.

(CROSSTALK)

BEARDSLEY: No, I sold it out about two years ago, O.J.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The lawyer`s at the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) hotel waiting right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) problem with you man. Are you mad at me?

SIMPSON: I thought you were straight shooter, man.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am, I am, man.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re sitting here with all this (EXPLETIVE DELETED). He should be mad at you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Joining us right now, another special guest, Tom Scotto, friend of Orenthal James Simpson. He testified at trial, and he was with Mr. Simpson just before tonight`s show.

Mr. Scotto, thank you for being with us.

TOM SCOTTO, TESTIFIED AT TRIAL, JUST VISITED O.J. SIMPSON RIGHT BEFORE SHOW: Thank you.

GRACE: How was Simpson when you visited him? Is it sinking in, he`s finally in jail?

SCOTTO: Yes, I mean, it`s definitely sinking in, he`s in shock, just like everybody else.

GRACE: You really believe that everybody else is in shock, Mr. Scotto?

SCOTTO: Everybody I speak to, everybody that was in the courtroom, every reporter I spoke to, everybody`s in shock. Nobody expected this kind of verdict.

GRACE: Why?

SCOTTO: Because I think he was overcharged, and I don`t -- first of all, I don`t see where it was an armed robbery where they voluntary handed over the items to him.

GRACE: Well, if you had a gun in your face, wouldn`t you hand over the items?

SCOTTO: Yes, you know, he brought a security guard with him. He`s had security all his life, but that doesn`t give him -- I don`t think it makes him at fault if somebody allegedly somebody pulled out a gun. O.J. did not tell anybody to pull out a gun.

GRACE: Now, in the tape recordings, Simpson is clearly heard asking when the gun was pulled?

SCOTTO: Yes. He asked if they pulled the gun. I don`t think he -- I don`t think you hear anything on the tapes about pull a gun or anything about guns in that room.

GRACE: To Jean Casarez, isn`t there sound that this jury heard of Simpson asking about the piece?

CASAREZ: And they talked about that in the jury press conference. It`s a Michael McClinton audiotape, and it`s where prosecutors said O.J. Simpson said, come on, you didn`t pull the piece out in the hall, did you?

Jurors said they listened to that over and over and over again in that jury room, and they had no question that that is exactly what O.J. Simpson said.

GRACE: I mean there -- he -- Simpson -- I`ve got it right here, I`ve got the transcript. Simpson is talking about the video -- because it`s a casino, there`s video everywhere -- and Simpson says, you didn`t pull the piece out in the hall, where is there a video, and the guy is saying, no, no, I didn`t do it in the hall. Right, Jean?

CASAREZ: But, Nancy, the defense is saying that`s not at all what O.J. said. He said you didn`t tell police in the hall, did you?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want him to keep the phones?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s just my personal phone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, well, you know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put those (EXPLETIVE DELETED) phones on the bed. Put your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) phone on that bed. Put your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) phone on that bed. You too.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please don`t break it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, man, shut your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) mouth before you get your ass broke.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRED GOLDMAN, RON GOLDMAN`S FATHER: Well, I think we`re all elated that this guy`s going to be in jail where he belongs, and 13 -- the number 13 now will perhaps be a lucky number for us and be an unlucky number for him.

YALE GALANTER, SIMPSON ATTORNEY: 13 years ago, 13 hours of deliberation, and, you know, it`s eerie. It really is. It`s eerie. You know I don`t know what to think of it just yet, but it`s either a very strange coincidence or somebody is sending us a really powerful message.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s reports right now that we`ve had some kind of vendetta against Mr. Simpson for what he did 13 years ago, and that in no way had anything to do with this case whatsoever.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Guilty, O.J. Simpson now behind bars, but not for double murder. Those are the charges 13 years ago. Now it`s for armed robbery in a Vegas casino hotel room, about $100,000 worth of sports memorabilia, none of which belonged to Mr. Simpson, according to prosecutors.

Joining us, Thomas Riccio, the memorabilia dealer who testified at trial and author of "Busted." Jean Casarez, legal correspondent with "In Session."

Jean, it seems to me after reviewing the trial transcript that I have so far, that Mr. Riccio`s story has changed a tiny bit.

CASAREZ: Well, I`m curious about that. In the trial he specifically said in testimony, prosecutors, I cannot help you in regard to whether O.J. Simpson knew or didn`t know that there was a gun in that room.

Now on your show tonight, I`m hearing him say that O.J. Simpson did know about the gun.

GRACE: So Mr. Riccio, which one is it?

RICCIO: Well, I -- I just said that in the beginning of the show, that at the point of my testimony, I didn`t know, then I listened to Walter Alexander sort of confess to the whole thing that O.J. Simpson asked for security with a licensed security guard, and that guy came to the incident and pulled out a gun.

He had a video camera on him so that he could create a scene and sell it to the tabloids. I learned that along with everyone else the day after I testified, when Walter Alexander testified.

GRACE: To Jean Casarez -- Jean, did any of the items rightfully belong to Orenthal James Simpson?

CASAREZ: At one time they were in his trophy room. Prosecutors say that those were the things that were taken out on the night before the turnover order was executed, where all items were going to go to the Goldmans, and they were dispersed to storage units around California.

GRACE: And how did they end up in a sports memorabilia auction, I guess it would be, or sale?

CASAREZ: It`s pretty involved. Some were in storage units, some were in the hands of Mike Gilbert. They were either sold or given to Bruce Fromong. Bruce Fromong had possession of them, he lived in Las Vegas, and that`s how it happened. It all came down here in California.

Furthermore Thomas Riccio testified that O.J. said it couldn`t have happened in California because of those turnover orders.

GRACE: But bottom line, Jean Casarez, did the jury perceive that any of these items actually belonged to Simpson?

CASAREZ: I specifically asked them that question. Did you look at the defense? Because the defense here was state of mind.

GRACE: Right.

CASAREZ: That it was his stuff, and he wanted to recover it. They said, we didn`t, because under the law, we couldn`t. The law is very clear.

GRACE: The law is clear.

CASAREZ: If you take property through force, fear or violence -- and it doesn`t matter who owns it -- that in the state of Nevada is robber robbery.

GRACE: And yes/no, Jean Casarez, is it true the defense actually wants an appeal bond?

CASAREZ: They definitely do. There is going to be a ferocious appeal in this case.

GRACE: Out to the lawyers, Susan Moss, Richard Herman, Joe Lawless.

Susan Moss, an appeal bond? They want him out on an appeal while -- out on bond while this goes up on appeal? That could be for years.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW AND CHILD ADVOCATE: I don`t think they`ll do it. I mean, who knows, maybe if he had worn gloves, he would have gotten away with it, but the reality is, is that audiotape and those videotapes were so clear that that`s how this jury was turned.

GRACE: To Brian Reich, in this case, explain to me, do sheriffs even look at ownership of the items in a theft when they were taken at gunpoint?

BRIAN REICH, DEPUTY CHIEF, BERGEN COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: WRIGHT: Absolutely not. You know just because somebody steals something from you doesn`t mean you can barge in to their home or their hotel room with a gun and rob people.

It has absolutely no bearing on this case, whatsoever, whether he owned it or not, whether it was in Nevada, New Jersey or any other state. You can`t rob people and stick them up at gunpoint.

GRACE: To Tom Scotto, friend of Simpson who visited him just before the show tonight, what is his jail cell like?

SCOTTO: That I don`t really know. I haven`t seen his cell.

GRACE: Where did you visit him, in the visitation room?

SCOTTO: Yes.

GRACE: What were his spirits?

SCOTTO: He`s trying to be positive. Obviously, he`s very upset, he`s distraught. He`s -- like I said before, he`s in shock.

GRACE: Well, since he`s going to be in jail for about 15 years, has he thought of selling his home and giving that money to the Goldmans and the Browns?

SCOTTO: Well, that -- that I don`t know.

GRACE: How about his family?

SCOTTO: Well, we`re staying with his family. His family is, obviously, very upset. Everybody`s very upset. I mean, this is -- you know, to everybody else that doesn`t like O.J., this is -- this is not justice. I don`t think there was justice served here at all.

GRACE: Why? Why?

SCOTTO: Because, basically, he went to retrieve items that were stolen from him. He didn`t barge into any hotel room. It was Tom Riccio`s room. Tom Riccio let him in the room.

And everybody in this case, every witness tried setting him up with cameras, audio tapes, to basically make money. Before they called 911 they called "Inside Edition".

GRACE: Mr. Scotto.

SCOTTO: . to see how much money they could get for the story.

GRACE: . can I ask you something?

SCOTTO: Sure.

GRACE: These items, the few of the items that Simpson said belonged to him, amazingly went missing from his home the night before sheriffs could take them and give them to the Goldman and Brown family.

Why did they disappear to start with?

SCOTTO: That`s not true. That`s not true.

GRACE: Why did they disappear to start with?

SCOTTO: That`s -- these -- these items were items that were left in the house after they served the turnover order. The footballs were Justin`s footballs. They were in his room. These are items that were left in the house by the sheriff`s department and were not taken.

GRACE: What about it, Jean Casarez?

SCOTTO: These were personal items.

CASAREZ: Well, I -- the items according to prosecutors were dispersed to storage units around California. They could not get that evidence in. But we have heard it and we have read it in some books.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOLDMAN: We`re absolutely thrilled to see that the potential is that he could spend the rest of his life in jail where that scumbag belongs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Thomas Riccio, the memorabilia dealer who testified at trial.

Mr. Riccio, weren`t they your audio tapes that were brought into trial?

RICCIO: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: Why did you tape them?

RICCIO: Why did I tape it? Again, it`s such a long story to go in here for a couple of minutes. But there was a mentally insane guy, criminally insane, Al Beardsley, who I was taping since 2004, ripped off my company.

O.J. knew he was nuts. And I -- I had the tape up in the room because of that. Everyone knows I knew nothing about the guns. I was as surprised.

GRACE: But why did you tape Simpson?

RICCIO: He was in the room along with -- Al Beardsley was the guy who was trying to sell me the stolen goods. We went to the cops. We went to the FBI. They had no interest. So me and O.J. organized this sting against Beardsley and Fromong to get the stuff back.

And that`s why -- and I was taping the whole thing. But we didn`t have any idea -- I didn`t have any idea a gun was coming out.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Ann in Louisiana. Hi, Ann.

ANN, LOUISIANA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. You just keep fighting the good fight, girl.

GRACE: Thank you, dear. Thank you very much.

ANN: Quick question. OK.

GRACE: What`s your question?

ANN: I get that O.J. says he did not know about the gun. But I`m curious just what he was willing to risk. Had there been no guns in the room, what would have been the worse thing he could have gotten?

GRACE: What about it, Jean Casarez?

CASAREZ: Boy, I think that`s an important question, Ann. If there were no guns, that would be a simple robbery. And let me tell you the significance of that. That is probationable.

And I think Tom Scotto made a critical point a little bit ago, without the tapes, I question whether there would be convictions in this case.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Navy Petty Officer First Class Cherie Morton, 40, Bakersfield, California, awarded four Good Conduct Medals, two Navy Achievement medals, also served the Air Force.

Caring, dedicated to others, loved traveling, cruises with family, bingo. Leaves behind parents Mary and Richard, son, Ryan.

Cherie Morton, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us tonight. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/06/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Search Set to Resume for Missing Florida 3-Year-Old

Aired October 7, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 16 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Mom Casey, the prime suspect of baby Caylee`s disappearance, has been a no-show at multiple court hearings. But now she`s set to appear personally before a judge to make her case, the tot mom petitioning the court to travel in secret, searching for Caylee.

And it is now revealed she claims she` always been afraid to search for her own daughter. Afraid. In fact, until now, mom, Casey, refusing to cooperate with police, her own attorney even stating she will not tell police what she knows because it`s, quote, "not in her best interests." What`s her real motivation?

Tonight, the defense demanding access to mom, Casey`s, car, including DNA, hair, chloroform, all discovered in mom, Casey`s, car trunk. They also want computers, cell phone records, polygraphs. Tonight, are police tracking mom, Casey, by surveillance, by GPS monitoring? Has she been supplied a secret cell phone? Texas Equusearch heads to Orlando to resume the search for Caylee. Tonight, where is 3-year-old Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony met with her home confinement manager to map out where she could go this week and when. Any violation of that schedule could send her back to jail. But now Casey is asking for more freedom. In court papers, she is asking permission to travel to unnamed places of interest to aid in the search for Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey, why did you wait four months to say that you wanted to look for Caylee?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As early as this weekend, the head of Texas Equusearch tells us, he would like to resume his group`s recovery efforts in and around Orlando. And Tim Miller says he would love to have Casey`s help.

TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: If she said she was willing to go out and -- and take us to areas of interest, I`d be on the next plane out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re going to look in areas where the police didn`t.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jose Baez would not comment. However, his spokesman tells us that Casey is not interested in helping Texas Equusearch because that would be equivalent to admitting that her daughter is dead. The only searches she wants to participate in, according to the spokesman, are live sightings of Caylee, the efforts to bring the child home alive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: They just want Caylee back. That`s all they`re worried about right now is getting Caylee back. And you know what? That`s all I care about right now.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, the mystery surrounding 23-year-old mom Stacy Peterson vanishing, upscale Chicago suburbs, husband/cop Drew Peterson the prime suspect in his fourth wife`s disappearance. The suspicious drowning of wife number three in a bone-dry bathtub officially ruled homicide.

Bombshell. The former cop finally agrees to polygraph himself about his wife Stacy and flunks, Peterson the focus of a tell-all book where he describes the day his wife goes missing. Tonight, primetime exclusive. The author who grilled Peterson for hours and caught it all on tape is with us live with the tapes. Is there any movement in the case? What happened to Stacy Peterson?

DEREK ARMSTRONG, AUTHOR, "DREW PETERSON EXPOSED": And you mentioned another alternative theory something could have happened to her?

DREW PETERSON: Something -- my investigators were throwing that out. You know, she comes up dead or something, and it`s just, like, they`re going to be looking at you.

ARMSTRONG: Because it could be a number of things.

PETERSON: Depending on where it is. I mean, if she shows up in Alaska or something, you know, then I physically couldn`t be there and do that, you know? It depends, so -- and that`s got me a little concerned. But I really believe she took off with somebody, so it`s just like I`m not -- and everybody`s always saying, You should be out helping search.

ARMSTRONG: Yes, I heard that.

PETERSON: Why am I going out searching for somebody I don`t believe is there? You know, it`s wasting my time. It`s, like, crazy.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you last saw her a month ago?

CASEY ANTHONY: Thirty-one days. It`s been 31 days.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why are you calling now? Why didn`t you call 31 days ago?

CASEY ANTHONY: I`ve been looking for her and have gone through other resources to try to find her, which is stupid.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, my first concern would be that we had her out on a bond for I believe it was nine days, and she never once -- never once did she say, Drive me here, or, Call here, or, Go there. None of that at all.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her attorney hopes to convince circuit judge Stan Strickland (ph) on Friday to allow Casey to travel secretly to places of interest in this case to, quote, "assist with the search" of missing child, Caylee Anthony. One of the reasons Casey is on house arrest for child neglect is because she did nothing to find her daughter, and apparently still hasn`t.

Anthony`s attorney also wants access to the evidence from the car Casey was driving when Caylee disappeared. He`ll trying to pool (ph) that evidence into the child neglect case so his expert can get to it. Attorney Jose Baez says he`s entitled to all the information because Casey has suffered the public`s hatred and that law enforcement or the state attorney`s office has successfully tried a homicide case against the defendant in the public eye.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And if anything happens to Caylee, Casey, I`ll die! Do you understand? I`ll die if anything happens to that baby!

CASEY ANTHONY: Whoa. Oh, my god. Calling you guys, a waste. Huge waste. Honey, I love you. You know I would not let anything happen to my daughter. If I knew where she was, this wouldn`t be going on.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newsradio 10050. Mark, she says all this time, she`s been afraid to search for her daughter, and now she`s making a personal appearance before the judge. Why now, when she has been a no-show so many other times?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSRADIO 1150: Well, you know, I was going to say your guess is as good as mine. But here`s the deal, when it comes right down to it, Nancy. I think she wants a real "get out of jail" card free due to the fact that she says that she needs the privacy to go and search for Caylee, where she thinks that she may be.

She hasn`t told police or investigators where the child is. She has clammed up all this time. And you know, a lot of people are just kind of shaking their heads over this one, especially when the privacy issue is concerned, because you know and I know that the media will find out where she is searching. I mean, we have five helicopters in town belonging to TV stations, and they will zero in on her real -- real quick, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, I don`t understand -- to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI -- is why should the search for Caylee be a secret? Why does it have to be a secret?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: That`s a great question.

GRACE: It doesn`t even make any sense!

BROOKS: No sense whatsoever! First of all, when she was in jail and she said, Look, if you let me out, I will help you find Caylee -- so Leonard Padilla, he thought he was doing the right thing by coming and bonding her out the first time, and then he found out into a week -- you know, he said, We`ll find her in a week. He then found out that she was lying. If she`s moving her mouth, she`s telling a lie. This is ridiculous. No judge in his right mind is going to even grant this, Nancy.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us out of Atlanta, felony defense attorney Ray Giudice. Also with us, high-profile lawyer Mickey Sherman, author of "How Can You Defend Those People?" Out to Ray Giudice. She says she has been afraid to search for her daughter? Afraid of what?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, let me just say I think the judge is going to deny that motion very quickly. He`s not going to allow her to tramp around...

GRACE: Not what I asked.

GIUDICE: I think that she`s -- I think it`s a ruse. I think it`s a strategy that there`s some Mafia or some violent people that have the child and she`s afraid to interrupt. That`s come out in many of her tape- recorded statements. But again, that motion is going to be denied.

GRACE: Come on, Mickey Sherman. She`s sitting around the dinner table at her boyfriend`s apartment, making pasta dinner, she`s afraid of the Mafia?

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, she`s so strange. But you know, the problem is that if she didn`t make at least a seemingly appearance of looking for her child, we`d be criticizing her for that. So she`s dammed either way. You know...

GRACE: No, I disagree, Mickey. If she had been at the get-go out there -- I mean, think about it. Think about it!

SHERMAN: In an ideal world, of course.

GRACE: If your children go missing, you`d be out there screaming in the streets, lying across the front steps of the police station, begging for help.

SHERMAN: For 24/7, no question.

GRACE: If she had done that, no one would be throwing a stone at this point.

SHERMAN: Well, I guess she`s trying to make the point that it`s never too late to start doing the right thing.

GRACE: Here`s where she`s looked so far, her boyfriend`s apartment, we know, at the kitchen table, Fusian lounge, under every barstool possible, and a good search around the stripper pole, Amscot checking, where her car ran out of gas, and Blanchard Park, where she claims she lost her cell phone. Oh, yes. There was the big search at Buffalo Wild Wings, Mickey Sherman. Of course people are throwing stones.

SHERMAN: Well, the other problem is, as Mike points out, there`s nothing she`s going to do that`s going to be secret. This woman has an aura of publicity around her 24/7 while she`s out of jail.

GRACE: Ray, what about Sherman`s theory that dammed if she does, dammed if she doesn`t? I disagree with that because if she had been searching at the beginning and putting out fliers, the way most people would if their child went missing, she wouldn`t be in the predicament she`s in now. And why should the search be in secret, Giudice?

GIUDICE: Well, it`s not going to be, but I think, in Mickey`s defense -- look, she`s going to try to do something. Baez is going to throw it up so at trial, he can say, We tried, we offered to look and we were turned down, and you didn`t follow up on all these leads. We could have helped. But I do think it`s a dollar late. It`s -- whatever the phrase is, it`s too late.

GRACE: It`s a day late and a dollar short.

GIUDICE: A dollar short. Thanks.

GRACE: OK, good try. Back to Mark Williams with WNDB. What about her appearance on Friday in court?

WILLIAMS: Well, that appearance takes place at 10:30 AM in an Orange County courtroom. She`ll be accompanied by Jose Baez, her attorney, who, of course, is going to say -- say to the judge, you know, Let Casey expand her horizons a little bit. Let`s get her out of home confinement. Let`s let her search for the child.

But again, I agree with your other guest, a day late, a dollar short, because, as you know, Nancy, some of the investigators have said Casey`s no longer with us -- or Caylee`s no longer with us.

GRACE: To Tim Miller, the head of Texas Equusearch -- Texas Equusearch now resuming in the search. They are headed back to Orlando to search for Caylee. As you know, Tim Miller not just a veteran searcher but also a crime victim himself. Mr. Miller, why are you heading back?

MILLER: Nancy, why not? I mean, we`ve still got a missing girl. You know what? It`s never too late to continue a search. I truly believe that Caylee is out there. I would love to believe that she`s still alive. But Nancy, I truly from my heart don`t believe that. And I believe that she`s findable and the only way she`s going to be findable is let`s go search some more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re here because you brought us here, right? Now, I want you to tell me how that`s helping us find your daughter.

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But everything we`re doing is to find your daughter. That`s the most important thing in the world to you right now, right?

CASEY ANTHONY: Caylee`s been up here. Maybe we could talk to security to see if she`s come through the front. I know she`s come to the park. She`s gone to Disney. She`s been at Seaworld.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoa, whoa, whoa!

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s been to other place...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s go back to -- let`s -- let`s...

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re here...

CASEY ANTHONY: ... a backwards way of looking.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. It`s -- you know -- why do you think it`s backwards? It`s backwards because you haven`t been truthful with us.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Texas Equusearch announcing that it is headed back to Orlando to resume the search for 3-year-old missing Caylee. Here`s a shot of her. The tip line, everyone, I want you to be familiar with. We`re going to put that up on the screen. Also, there is a Web site about looking for little Caylee, Cfcrimeline.com. There is a $225,000 reward to find little Caylee.

To Tim Miller, the head of Texas Equusearch. Where do you intend on searching, Tim?

MILLER: Well, Nancy, we never really even came close to completing the areas that we searched before because of the conditions. And conditions today are not the same as when Caylee disappeared. You know, they had a tropical storm came in. It dropped a lot of water.

And it was my choice to go ahead and suspend the search at that time. And the reason being I truly believe that Caylee is not alive anymore. I don`t believe she`s far away. And I was not going to take a risk on our four-wheelers and our horses, our ground searchers walking through water that was a foot or two high and stepping on a possible little skeleton -- and we all know that she`s extremely decomposed right now and skeletal remains -- and pushing it farther down in the mud, so -- and then have a chance of never finding her.

So I`m flying back to Florida this week. I`m going to look the area over and make that determination.if...

GRACE: Are you working with police?

MILLER: I have talked to John Allen today, I talked to him twice yesterday. And we are certainly working together on this, and we`re not going to quit until Caylee is found.

And you know what? I held onto that little glimmer of hope that she was still alive out there. But Nancy, I am -- I`ve lost all that hope. And you know what? We need to find her. And you know, there`s -- it`s never too late. I mean, we did a search on Sunday in Oklahoma on a lady that`s missing five years, and I personally located her body in 35 minutes.

So I`m going to make some decisions out there, and we`re going to bring in the best resources again, and the conditions are going to be right...

GRACE: Tim, who pays your people?

MILLER: Nobody does, Nancy.

GRACE: You`re all volunteers?

MILLER: We`re all volunteers. I`ve got $35,000-plus invested in -- in Caylee`s search. But what price tag do you put on a missing person?

GRACE: Everyone, I want to remind you Tim Miller not just the head of Texas Equusearch but a crime victim. His daughter went missing and was murdered, and he has devoted himself to this calling ever since.

To Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Nikki, there are 13 felony charges hanging over Casey Anthony`s head, all fraud-related. Tell me in a nutshell what are the other charges she`s facing?

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Well, besides the lying to investigators and the other charges that are involved with Caylee, the rest are check fraud charges from stealing from her friend, Amy Huizenga. She stole checks when she borrowed Amy`s car and she cashed them all at various places, at Target, Bank of America, and so on, and cleaned out Amy`s bank account.

GRACE: We`re taking your calls live. Out to Stephanie in Washington. Hi, Stephanie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. My question is, is when did she start searching for chloroform in her computer? Can they find that date? Because I`m wondering if maybe the chloroform wasn`t for her mother.

GRACE: Interesting. What about it, Mark Williams? Do we know the date of those searches on her computer?

WILLIAMS: I don`t believe that information is yet to be released yet. But the computer did show that she did search for chloroform. But the exact date has not yet been released by authorities.

GRACE: And I mean, you`ve got to think it through, Mike Brooks. I`ve actually heard that theory espoused before that she wanted to somehow injure her mother. But the bottom line is, it`s Caylee who has gone missing. It`s either Caylee`s or Casey`s hair in the trunk, and the chloroform is in the trunk. So that negates any theory that she was out for her mom.

BROOKS: Right, unless, you know, under some theory that she was storing the chloroform in her trunk, which I find highly improbable. And you know, investigations are saying...

GRACE: But then how does Caylee fit into the trunk?

BROOKS: Well, because they believed that the hair that was...

GRACE: No, no, no. You say she accidentally -- she`s storing chloroform in the trunk and then somehow her daughter ends up in the truck? That doesn`t make sense.

BROOKS: No, no. I`m saying is unless she had it in the trunk and it spilled over. That`s the only reason there would be significant traces, as the FBI said, of chloroform in the trunk. But I -- I...

GRACE: So she means to kill somebody else, and then somehow Caylee goes missing? Is that, you know, reasonable in your mind?

BROOKS: No, absolutely not, Nancy. And you know -- and...

GRACE: OK. Thank you. You just restored my faith in you.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: Back to the lines. Cheryl in Washington. Hi, Cheryl.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. My question is, has Casey had a psychiatric evaluation?

GRACE: We do know that she had at least one in order for her to get out of jail and be on house arrest. We don`t know the results of that. It has not been published.

To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who first put up the bond for Casey Anthony, then came off that bond, bounty hunter out of California. He`s joining us tonight from San Antonio. Mr. Padilla, what do you make of Casey Anthony saying she`s always been too afraid to go search for her daughter? Now, look, don`t get me wrong. I`m not throwing a stone at anybody`s lifestyle. I don`t care. All I care about are felonies. But she didn`t look too afraid when she was on that stripper pole at Fusian lounge. She didn`t look scared to me.

PADILLA: She -- she has no fear. And the reason she has no fear is because she figures she`s in complete control of the whole situation. She right now knows that Tim Miller is within days of finding her daughter, Caylee`s, remains. She knows that. She can sense it. She can feel it.

Tim Miller has access to the same information that law enforcement and my partner, Rob, have. And that is, they know exactly where she was on those days that took place between the 16th and the 30th. And Tim Miller - - I`m telling you, he`s the best equipped, he`s the most knowledgeable, and he will find Caylee. I guarantee you that.

GRACE: Very quickly, everyone. We`ll be right back, and we are taking your calls live as the search resumes now for little Caylee.

To tonight`s "Case Alert." The search for a precious 2-year-old girl, vanishing northwest Detroit, Tagena Hussain, reported missing by mom`s live-in. They were allegedly at a local gas station. Police say he flunked the polygraph. The little girl last seen wearing a long-sleeved brown T-shirt, white cargo pants and gold sandals. Take a look. If you have information, please call Detroit police, 313-596-1240.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why didn`t you call prior to today?

CASEY ANTHONY: Fear of the unknown, fear of the potential of Caylee getting hurt, of not seeing my daughter again.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: No one can say or second guess what you`re going to do to protect your child when you fear for their safety.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... that she`s safe. She knows who has her daughter. She knows her daughter`s safe.

CINDY ANTHONY: You know, we`ve got to be very mindful because anything we say, not even thinking about it, could be something that could put Caylee`s life in danger.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Everyone, the search is now resuming for little Caylee, Texas Equusearch being brought in to search throughout the Orlando area. Here are some of the places that are focused for searches, the dumpster near the Amscot where the car was found, the airport area, where pings from the cell phone was -- there`s the tot family home, and a nearby landfill.

To Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist. Dr. Saunders, the mindset that it would take to, for instance, throw a body in water versus putting it in a dumpster -- explain the difference.

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, in both instances, it`s obviously the callous disregard for the deceased. I think the notion of putting it in a landfill is pretty distasteful to most people because it`s garbage. It also shows no foresight because that could easily be found, as opposed to putting a body in water, where it`s going to decompose pretty fast.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: This afternoon, Casey Anthony met with her home confinement manager to map out where she could go this week and when.

Casey is asking for more freedom. In court papers, she is asking permission to travel to unnamed places of interest to aid in the search for Caylee. A spokesman at the Orange County Jail said this kind of request is highly unusual, and would likely require Casey`s attorney to be with her at all times.

For his part, Jose Baez has argued since this July interview, that confining Casey stalled the search for Caylee.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S LAWYER: We are going to look in areas where the police didn`t.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: As early as this weekend, the head of Texas Equusearch tells us, he`d like to resume his group`s recovery efforts in and around Orlando. And Tim Miller says he would love to have Casey`s help.

Jose Baez would not comment, however, his spokesman tells us that Casey is not interested in helping Texas Equusearch because that would be equivalent to admitting that her daughter is dead.

The only searches she wants to participate in, according to the spokesman, are live sightings of Caylee. The efforts to bring the child home alive.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Wouldn`t those searches require her to go out of state, Mark Williams, with WNDB, if she wants to follow up on -- alleged live sightings?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: It would require her to travel out of state, no doubt about that, Nancy. And you know there`s also been some sightings like in the North Georgia Mountains, up in White County. There`s been some alleged sightings at the Orlando International Airport.

As a matter of fact, Baez is trying to get a full manifest for one flight in particular. But if there was anything evidence of Caylee being there, we`d have the videotape, which we don`t have.

Also, there`s been sightings in Puerto Rico and of course, in Dallas/Fort Worth.

GRACE: Isn`t it true, Mike Brooks, former Fed with the FBI, that the police got the manifest from AirTran for a flight from Orlando to Atlanta. On that plane, there were two children and both of them were accounted for. They were not Caylee.

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: They were not Caylee, they worked with AirTran corporate security. Nothing fit in that description.

Also, in Atlanta here, with the Atlanta Police Department at Hartsfield Jackson International Airport, they reviewed video. Nothing came up.

GRACE: To Dr. Michael Bell, joining us from Miami, he`s the Palm Beach County chief medical examiner.

Dr. Bell, thank you for being with us. This brings to mind two recent cases, that of Lori Hacking, whose husband threw her body into a landfill. She was barely found. There was some bone and hair that was found to identify her, versus the discovery of lacey Peterson. She and her unborn child, Connor, had been thrown into San Francisco Bay. They washed ashore.

When a body is put in a landfill versus water, how does the decomposition of the body compare?

DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH CO. CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, I`m not sure it`s necessarily going to be worse if it was in water versus landfill. Again, it`s more dependent upon the environmental temperature. And especially down here in Florida, the body is going to go bad fairly quickly.

GRACE: And with all the rain that has accumulated in Florida and also in a landfill, Doctor, you have the constant upheaval of adding new garbage, the garbage getting rotated around because of new garbage coming in, which further disassembles the body.

BELL: You`re absolutely correct. Things get a lot worse in a landfill. You get post mortem fractures and tears in the body.

GRACE: The body becomes completely disassembled. I want to go back out to our lawyers, Raymond Giudice and Mickey Sherman.

Ray, what would police have to do through to install GPS? A simple -- it`s about that big, it`s like a little.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s an ankle bracelet, Nancy. I mean it`s really not complicated.

GRACE: No, no, not on her, on her or her family`s car.

GIUDICE: Oh it`s even more simple. I mean that can be placed anywhere in the car. They have devices.

GRACE: But legally what do you have to go through? Like a search warrant?

GIUDICE: Oh for that -- oh, yes, they`d have to get a search -- I`m sorry. The mechanics of it are simple. A warrant is necessary and that`s not that complicated to get.

GRACE: To Mickey Sherman, defense attorney and author of "How Can You Defend Those People" -- Mickey, would it be any form of obstruction of justice if someone gave Casey Anthony, the tot mom, a secret cell phone to be using that was not tapped, in order to avoid the tap by police?

MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THOSE PEOPLE?": I don`t think so. Unless there is a specific order that she can only use certain phones. I mean, it`s more the negative. Unless she is forbidden to do it by a court order then she can basically do anything she wants that is within the law. And that`s not a problem.

GRACE: But what about, Mickey, the person that supplies her the phone that is specifically to avoid a police tap?

SHERMAN: Well, but it`s not to avoid a crime. It`s to avoid a police tap. I don`t know that that`s an obstruction of justice.

GIUDICE: I agree with Mickey.

GRACE: So Mike Brooks, what do you think of the theory that someone may provide her with a secret cell phone not listed in her name?

BROOKS: Well, they can find out, Nancy, because there are technologies now. They can say, OK, where is this certain signal coming from? Where is it going to? So they should be able to use a triangulation to find out if, in fact, if she is at her home or at Baez`s office, whether or not her cell phone is being used there that belongs to her, and in between.

GRACE: But wouldn`t they need to know that cell number?

BROOKS: There is -- without giving away -- there is technology to determine whether or not a signal is coming from inside that house that is not already -- that is not already tapped under court order.

GRACE: To Mark Smith, polygraph expert and VP of New Jersey Polygraphists --Mark, thank you for being with us. The defense has made an array of motions. One of them to get the history of polygraph machines that may or -- have been or may be used to give polygraph in this case.

Why do you need the machine`s history? Is it like a DUI machine?

MARK SMITH, POLYGRAPH EXPERT, VP OF NJ POLYGRAPHISTS: Well, you would hope that they`re using modern technology and computerized polygraph instead of the older style. There`s nothing wrong with the older ones, but you wouldn`t use a manual typewriter to type a letter today either.

And the computerized polygraph is light years ahead in technology. But there is no reason why that information shouldn`t be given to them, including.

GRACE: If they want it. But.

SMITH: The charts, questions.

GRACE: But, you know, another question -- back to the lawyers. To you, Ray Giudice, isn`t this moot at this juncture to be asking for all the evidence in a murder case when it`s just a child neglect case right now?

GIUDICE: Yes, that`s Baez`s point, he`s got to try to make a link between all of this forensic evidence.

GRACE: Got it.

GIUDICE: . and the polygraph examination to the case at bar. And I think he has got a good argument.

GRACE: Mickey Sherman, what is she doing at her defense attorney`s office all day long? I say she`s kicked back in a conference room, watching cable TV and yacking on the phone.

SHERMAN: If I was representing the Rolling Stones, I couldn`t spend that much time.

GRACE: All day, every day.

SHERMAN: I don`t understand that. She`s.

GRACE: . in her lawyer`s office. I think it`s a way just to get out of the house.

SHERMAN: That`s a lot of lifetime movies she`s going through. I mean.

GRACE: Man, you`re not kidding.

SHERMAN: You can only -- you can only debrief your client for so long. That`s a mystery to me. I think she`s just hiding.

GRACE: Nikki Pierce, what hours does she spend at her attorney`s office every day?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Generally it`s Monday through Friday, 10:00 to 4:00, sometimes it`s longer on Friday, for instance, when she goes to court...

GRACE: Did you say 10:00 to 4:00?

PIERCE: I did say 10:00 to 4:00. That`s usually what it is.

GRACE: Holy molly. OK, she ought to get her own office.

To Brenda in Michigan, hi, Brenda.

BRENDA, MICHIGAN RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

BRENDA: My question is, if she wants to go out and search secretly, could that -- do you think that could be because she knows where Caylee is?

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, we saw in the Scott Peterson case, Peterson kept circling back and looking out over the San Francisco Bay. I don`t think Casey Anthony would be that stupid.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: Oh, yes. She figures she is in complete control, and I can tell you this. She knows where the body is. And my only concern would be that she would go out there and attempt to move it or do something stupid, because she is that idiotic about doing things.

She figures, I`m in control, I know where the body is at. A lot of other people know where the body is at, too, because between the 26th and the 28th, I`ll tell you when she got rid of the body was prior to the 27th when she called Amy and says, I got rid of the smell in the car.

The night of the 26th, she parked the car there, at Amscot. The morning of the 27th, she went and picked the car back up, went to her mom, she called JCPenny`s and there`s a couple of signals down there in that area where she spent about 15 minutes.

That`s where the body is going to be found, and I`m telling you, Tim Miller is going to get it done.

GRACE: Now are you somehow.

PADILLA: She`s concerned about that.

GRACE: . married to the idea that the remains were in that dumpster near Amscot cash -- check cash?

PADILLA: No, no. No, we`ve -- regurgitated and talked about that, and Rob has come up with the -- the pings, where the only answer, unless somebody picked her up at Amscot the morning of the 27th, she had to get back in her own car. It was not (INAUDIBLE) yet.

GRACE: Leonard, got it. Before we go to break, I have got to ask you, do you think that anyone, friend or family, would supply her with a secret cell phone?

PADILLA: Absolutely, yes. Yes.

GRACE: I do, too. What do you think about the notion that the family cars have GPS trackers on them?

PADILLA: Well, I don`t think they do right now. But there`s -- there`s really no need for it. They`re -- you know, they`re high-profile. And law enforcement can track them any time they want, physically, so I don`t think they have GPS trackers on them.

And as somebody said earlier, I do not believe the judge is going to let her get out and mess with evidence.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEREK ARMSTRONG, AUTHOR OF "DREW PETERSON EXPOSED": This probably all comes across to a lot of audiences as you`re trying to blame her for running away or whatever.

DREW PETERSON, HUSBAND OF MISSING STACY PETERSON: Well, I look at it, Mike -- you know, you sit by yourself sometimes and you try to think, what did I do wrong? You know, could I have been a better husband, could I have done this, could I have done in? I gave her everything.

And my way of giving her love was providing for her. You know, like I say, I kept telling people, she wanted a boob job, she got a boob job. Braces, I got her braces.

ARMSTRONG: She got a boob job?

PETERSON: Lasik surgery, we got her lasik surgery. I don`t really mean to be arrogant, it`s just like I`d call it a dominance and being a police sergeant and been a policeman for 33 years, you have to develop that certain amount of callousness and -- I don`t even call it arrogant.

I mean I think I`m the last thing in the world to describe me as arrogant. You know, I mean, it`s just like Joel has really kept a lid on me from being funny, because if it wasn`t for him, I`d be doing all kinds of.

ARMSTRONG: Right.

PETERSON: . goofy stuff. The other day, Greta`s trying to have a thing and I`ve got the horns going to ruin their interview on the cars and stuff and that made all the presses, this crazy thing, you know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Yes, it takes a certain type of humor to find the humor in a missing fourth wife and a dead third wife. But apparently Drew Peterson has been able to bridge that gap and find the humor in those circumstances.

Joining us tonight, Derek Armstrong, the author of "Drew Peterson Exposed." He is joining us exclusively tonight. Here is his book. He has hours of audiotapes of Drew Peterson.

And we learned that related to Stacy Peterson, Drew Peterson took a polygraph and flunked. He missed half the questions. He is deceptive on half the questions.

Is that true, Mr. Armstrong?

ARMSTRONG: Yes, it is, Nancy. He -- sorry.

GRACE: Go ahead.

ARMSTRONG: He was deceptive on thee answers that related directly to the timeline that I asked him to produce for the book.

GRACE: Were you disturbed when you realized he was lying?

ARMSTRONG: Yes. And that was the reason I asked him to take the polygraph before I would even consider interviewing him and writing the book.

GRACE: How did you meet Peterson to start with? Who contacted who?

ARMSTRONG: I contacted Selig, his publicist, when I heard he was shopping a book. I`m in Canada, so the offer I made to him was, I`ll write an impartial book. But he had had no luck getting an author interested, and I came along, I suppose, at the right time.

GRACE: What questions showed him to be deceptive related to Stacy Peterson?

ARMSTRONG: The first question related directly to the timeline, he said that the only time he saw Stacy on the morning of October 28th was when he came home from the police department. He said hello to her and then he went to sleep and never saw her again. That was a deceptive answer that he gave.

GRACE: And, sir -- with me, everyone, Derek Armstrong, the author of "Drew Peterson Exposed," he`s got hours of hours of audiotape with Peterson.

What is significant about the timeline that Peterson gave you?

ARMSTRONG: Well, I don`t think anyone has had a timeline from him before. I`m sure he gave one to the police. I`m not privy to that. But in the media, he hasn`t given a full timeline. I insisted on it for the book, and I used that to construct the polygraph questions.

GRACE: To Mark Smith, polygraph expert with New Jersey Polygraphists -- Mr. Smith, we went to your stories about people that can believe they can beat a polygraph. What would throw a polygraph off?

SMITH: Well, you can create movements and put artifacts, as we call them, on the charts. But that`s not going to clear you. That may make the charts unable to be scored and, you know, result indetermined, but it`s certainly not going to clear you.

GRACE: To our lawyers, Ray Giudice, Mickey Sherman -- everyone, we`re taking your calls.

Ray Giudice, all of these hours and hours of him on audiotape will come into evidence.

GIUDICE: Very likely. I just can`t believe his lawyer allowed him to do this in a not-for-profit situation, especially. This is a terrible tactical mistake.

GRACE: What about it, Sherman?

SHERMAN: Well, here`s my question for Mr. Armstrong. Is he sharing in the profits, yes or no?

GRACE: Is he, Derek Mr. Armstrong? Did he make any money off this book?

ARMSTRONG: No. Basically what.

GRACE: Go ahead.

ARMSTRONG: No, he`s getting no piece of it. His interest in this is to tell his story. My sense of it is that he likes celebrity. You know how he likes to be in the media. I think he wants a book. I think eventually he wants a movie. That`s what I think is at the bottom of his motivation.

GRACE: Did he ever show any remorse over the disappearance of his fourth wife or the death of his third wife?

ARMSTRONG: No.

GRACE: Now, he managed to pass polygraphy questions about the drowning death of his third wife. Who gave the polygraph?

ARMSTRONG: The polygraph examiner was Lee McCord of -- in Illinois. He has been licensed for 34 years. I checked his credentials. He`s a good polygraph examiner.

He didn`t have an explanation for why he passed that one. I tried to get to the root of it. He just said as far as I`m concerned it was conclusive and he passed it.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks, what do you make of it?

BROOKS: You know, Nancy, I think polygraphs are a great investigative tool. I talk about them all the time, I`d use them in my -- cases I worked with when I was at the FBI. But, you know, they are investigative tools. They are not admissible in court, so you know, this guy, does he have a personality disorder, you know, is he really telling the truth?

Did he pass the one with Savio? Maybe he was -- you know, beat it or was deceptive and it didn`t come through, who knows? But the bottom line is, Nancy, with the grand jury and all the evidence they have with them, if they have a case, they should charge him.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Straight to Dr. Patricia Saunders, when he was told that he flunked the polygraph, there was no response whatsoever.

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: It doesn`t surprise me, Nancy. You know sociopaths tend to have very good control over what little emotions they have. This guy is a better sociopath than Casey Anthony.

GRACE: To our producer, Ellie Jostad -- Ellie, is it true he`s actually waiting for a movie?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE MANAGING EDITOR, COVERING STORY: Yes, exactly. He was asked by the "Chicago Tribune" what he thought about this book coming out and he said, oh, he is bored with it all. He was waiting for the movie and that he hopes Denzel Washington would play him.

GRACE: Mr. Armstrong -- Derek Armstrong, the author of "Drew Peterson Exposed," what was your impression of Drew Peterson?

ARMSTRONG: It`s a long analysis, but basically, he is all about himself. He`s -- he likes his own celebrity. He -- at times he shows emotions really is when he is worried about himself or his children, but certainly not when it related to anything else I asked him.

GRACE: I noticed in all of the pictures in your book, he is never smiling with his family, only when he is with his golfing buddies or his friends.

"Drew Peterson Exposed" by Derek Armstrong.

Everyone, let`s stop and remember, Marine First Lieutenant Matthew Vandergrift, 28, Littleton, Colorado, killed Iraq. A Texas A&M, honors grad, fulfilled his dream to follow his father`s footstep serving his country.

Awarded the Global War on Terrorism Service Medal, Sea Service Deployment Ribbon and National Defense Service Medal. Leaves behind parents John and Mary, brother, Barrett, serving the Air Force.

Matthew Vandergrift, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp, Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/07/ng.01.html

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Steel Monkey

Transcript (rough) of Local6.com newcast announcing the Grand Jury hearing....

Jackie:  Jessica, what can you tell us about all of this?

Jessica:    Well Jackie, I have just learned that the prosecutor will bring the case to a Grand Jury next week.  Then, the Grand Jury will decide if there is enough evidence to send a homicide case to trial.  Now so far, little Caylee has been missing for four months, and her body hasn’t been found.  However, investigators have told the media in the past that they believe that the child is dead.  Now, with that said, even with no body, the State plans to charge her in connection with the death of her child.  Right now I am still trying to confirm which charge the State plans to bring – if that will be a murder charge or a manslaughter charge, but at this point is it still unclear.  Jackie?

Jackie:  Well Jessica, what if the Grand Jury decides that there is not enough evidence to actually hand down an indictment?

Jessica:  Well Jackie, nothing really happens at that point.  But the prosecution could come back to that Grand Jury, time and time again after that.  It’s not uncommon for prosecutors to go back to a Grand Jury and try and bring them more evidence.  Since murder, since this murder has no statute of limitations, they can just keep on doing that.  Jackie?

Jackie:  Such a development today Jessica.  What is expected to happen now in the coming days?

Jessica:  In the coming days we can start looking for subpoenas to be cut, ah, people will start getting served, witnesses will get served with subpoenas, they’ll be summoned to appear at the Grand Jury hearing.  So we will probably start seeing people like Cindy and George Anthony, Casey’s parents.  They will likely be subpoenaed.  Also Tony Lazzaro, who was Casey’s boyfriend at the time Caylee was missing that full month.  And several other people of course in this case.  We’ve seen there have been so many witnesses who have been interrogated over the course of the last few months.

Jackie:  Jessica, just to mention that Grand Jury hearing, does Casey actually have to show up at the Grand Jury?

Jessica:  She actually doesn’t have to show up.  She can be summoned, she could be summonded, she could be coming to the Grand Jury hearing, but she doesn’t have to speak.  So it is a possibility that she could come, but again, she does not have to say anything.  And, I should note, that coming up tonight at 5:00 pm, we did speak to a local defense attorney who talked to us a little bit more on how its possible to bring a case like this without a body.

Jackie:  Alright, thank you Jessica.


   

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This is the html version of the file http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/chapters/chapter30/flgrandjuryhandbook.rtf.
Google automatically generates html versions of documents as we crawl the web.

30 FLORIDA GRAND JURY HANDBOOK
 
The Supreme Court Committee

On Standard Jury Instructions

In Criminal Cases

 TABLE OF CONTENTS
INTRODUCTION

WHAT IS A GRAND JURY?

TERM OF THE GRAND JURY

WHO ARE GRAND JURORS?

DISQUALIFICATION TO SERVE AS A GRAND OR PETIT JUROR

FREQUENTLY USED WORDS AND PHRASES

GRAND JURY AND PETIT JURY DISTINGUISHED

HISTORY OF THE GRAND JURY

THE GRAND JURY AS AN ACCUSING AND INVESTIGATIVE BODY

OFFICERS OF THE GRAND JURY

PROCEDURES

PROCEEDINGS OF THE GRAND JURY

DETERMINATION WHETHER TO RETURN AN INDICTMENT OR

A NO TRUE BILL

THE STATE ATTORNEY (OR THE STATEWIDE PROSECUTOR)

AS LEGAL ADVISOR TO THE GRAND JURY

SECRECY OF GRAND JURY PROCEEDINGS

PROTECTION AND IMMUNITY OF GRAND JURORS

ON BEING A GRAND JUROR -- SOME PRACTICAL SUGGESTIONS

CONCLUSION

 


INTRODUCTION

"Jury service is one of the highest duties of citizenship, for by it the 
citizen participates in the administration of justice.."

Harlan Fisk Stone

Chief Justice

United States Supreme Court

 


      You are one of those citizens who have been selected to perform this "highest duty of citizenship."

      In time of peace there is no higher duty a citizen can perform than that of jury service; however, few citizens when called to serve have any understanding of the principles that control the actions of the grand juror.

      This handbook is intended only to give the juror a better understanding of the general nature of his or her functions, together with some suggestions as how best to carry them out. The court itself will be the final authority in its instructions to the grand jury. This handbook is not intended in any manner whatever as a substitute for the instructions given by the presiding judge.

WHAT IS A GRAND JURY?

      A grand jury is an investigating, reporting, and accusing agency of the circuit court (or of the Florida Supreme Court in the case of the statewide grand jury). It consists of citizens of a specified number who have been summoned and empaneled by a judge of the circuit court (or by a judge appointed by the Florida Supreme Court, in the case of the statewide grand jury). The grand jury is an agency and an arm of the circuit court (or the Florida Supreme Court in the case of the statewide grand jury) and is uniquely independent.

      The grand jury is answerable to no person or agency of government except the court that empanels it and, even then, only to the extent that it may exceed its authority and privileges.

TERM OF THE GRAND JURY

      At least two terms of court are held each year and once the grand jury is empaneled, it will serve for the balance of the term of court. In exceptional cases, its term may be extended. (The statewide grand jury's term is for a period of 12 months, but may be extended for up to 18 months.) The grand jury will not be in continuous session but will be called in from time to time as necessary.

WHO ARE GRAND JURORS?

      Grand jurors are United States citizens and legal residents of this state and their respective counties who are at least 18 years of age and who possess a driver's license or identification card issued by the Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles, or who execute an affidavit indicating a desire to serve as a juror.

      All jurors are selected at random and their names are taken from lists prepared by the clerk of the circuit court.

      The process of selecting jurors is done in most counties by the county commissioners and in some counties by a specially constituted jury commission. The process of selecting the statewide grand jury is handled by the State Courts Administrator for the Florida Supreme Court.

      When making up the jury list, the officers compiling it are required to select only citizens they believe to be law-abiding, and of proven integrity, good character, sound judgment and intelligence, and who are not mentally infirm.

DISQUALIFICATION TO SERVE AS A
GRAND OR PETIT JUROR

      Any person who has been convicted of a felony or bribery, forgery, perjury, or larceny is disqualified to sit as a juror, unless his or her civil rights have been restored.

      A person under prosecution for any crime is disqualified.

      Most government officials are disqualified to serve on a jury.  An elected public official is not eligible to be a grand juror.

FREQUENTLY USED WORDS AND PHRASES

      Throughout this handbook and during your term as a grand juror certain terms will occur frequently. Some of these are:

      Capital Crime. A capital crime is any crime for which the maximum punishment is death.

      Circuit Court. The State of Florida is divided into 20 judicial "circuits." Each circuit covers one or more counties. The circuit court is the highest trial court in the circuit.

      Defendant. A "defendant" is a person who has been accused of a crime and is defending himself or herself in a court against the criminal charge. The words "defendant" and "accused" are used interchangeably.

      Felony. A "felony" is any crime which is punishable by imprisonment in a state penitentiary for a term in excess of one year. A "misdemeanor" is any crime which is punishable by imprisonment in a county correctional facility for a term of not more than one year.

      Indictment; True Bill. A "true bill" is a charge brought by the grand jury accusing a person of a crime. A true bill, when it is filed in court, then becomes an "indictment."

      Judge. The judge presiding over the trial is often called or referred to as "the court."

      No True Bill. A "no true bill" is a finding by the grand jury that on a given charge no indictment should be filed.

      Presentment. A "presentment" is a presentation to the court of a grand jury's report of its actions and recommendations.

      State Attorney. Each circuit in the State of Florida has a "state attorney" who, together with assistants, prosecutes all crimes and offenses in the circuit and county courts in the circuit. Some other states refer to this officer as a "district attorney" or "prosecuting attorney."

      Statewide Prosecutor. The statewide prosecutor is appointed by the Attorney General of the State of Florida to investigate and prosecute certain multi-circuit criminal activity.

GRAND JURY AND PETIT JURY DISTINGUISHED

      There are two kind of juries: grand juries and petit juries.

      The grand jury consists of not fewer than 15 nor more than 21 (or 18 for statewide grand jury) members. A petit jury, depending upon the type of trial, consists of either 6 or 12 members.

      The grand jury and the petit jury have entirely different purposes and functions. A petit jury actually tries a case and renders a verdict of guilty or not guilty after hearing both sides. A grand jury does not try a case on the issue of guilt or innocence. The grand jury rarely hears both sides. Its function is simply to hear witnesses as to a charge of crime, by the State, and to determine whether the person, or persons, so charged should be brought to trial. The grand jury has been called both a sword and shield of justice -- a sword because it is a terror to criminals, a shield because it is protection of the innocent against unjust prosecution.

      The tremendous power of the grand jury obviously creates grave and solemn responsibilities to see that these powers are not perverted or abused. A grand jury, being possessed with these tremendous powers and unless motivated by the highest sense of justice, might find indictments not warranted by the evidence and thus become a source of oppression to the citizenry.

      Conversely, a misguided grand jury might dismiss charges against those who should be prosecuted. The importance of the grand jury's power is emphasized by the fact that it is one of the most independent bodies known to the law.

HISTORY OF THE GRAND JURY

      The grand jury originated more than seven centuries ago in England. It was recognized in the Magna Charta granted by King John of England upon the demand of the people in 1215 A.D. Its present form evolved in the period 1327 to 1377. Its origins can be traced back even further. As early as 997 A.D., a Danish king, "Ethelred the Unready," charged an investigative body of his reign that it should go about its duty by accusing no innocent person, and sheltering no guilty one.

      This high principle is echoed in the oath that you took as a grand juror:

      "You, as grand jurors for _____ County (or the statewide grand jury) do solemnly swear (or affirm) that you will diligently inquire into all matters put in your charge and you will make true presentments of your findings; unless ordered by a court, you will not disclose the nature or substance of the deliberations of the grand jury, the nature or substance of any testimony or other evidence, the vote of the grand jury, or the statements of the state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor); you shall not make a presentment against a person because of envy, hatred, or malice, and you shall not fail to make a presentment against a person because of love, fear, or reward. So help you God."

      The early colonists brought the grand jury system to this country from England. It has been with us ever since. It is recognized in the Constitution of the United States and in the Constitution of Florida.

      (The Statewide Grand Jury was created in 1973 to "strengthen the grand jury system and enhance the ability of the State to detect and eliminate organized criminal activity by improving the evidence gathering process in matters which transpire or have significance in more than one county." Section 905.32, Florida Statutes.)

THE GRAND JURY AS AN ACCUSING
AND INVESTIGATING BODY

      Our constitution provides that no person shall be brought to trial for a capital crime except upon indictment of a grand jury. This means that no one may be prosecuted for a capital crime except by a vote of the grand jury. Except for capital crimes, the state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor) may initiate all other criminal charges. The grand jury of course may indict for any crime that the evidence justifies.

      The wisdom of leaving to the state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor) the bringing of charges as to crimes less than capital crimes and traffic violations is readily apparent. If the grand jury was required to initiate the prosecution of less serious crimes through indictment, the grand jury would be so overwhelmed with complaints that it could not perform its more important duties.

      Charges of crime may be brought to your attention in several ways: by the court; by the state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor); from personal knowledge brought to your body by any member of the grand jury; and, lastly, by private citizens who have a right to be heard by a grand jury in formal session and with the grand jury's consent. The bulk of the grand jury's work probably will be concerned with cases brought to its attention by the state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor). In most instances a person being considered for indictment by the grand jury will have been held preliminarily on a charge brought before a judge sitting as a committing magistrate, who bound that person over for action by the grand jury. The accused will be either in custody or on bail. Your action, therefore, should be reasonably prompt in either voting an indictment as to the charge or returning a "no true bill."

      The grand jury should consult with the state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor) or an assistant state attorney (or the assistant statewide prosecutor) in advance of undertaking a formal investigation on the grand jury's own initiative.

      A grand juror may not be subject to partisan secret influences. Consequently, no one has the right to approach a juror in order to persuade that juror that an indictment should or should not be found. Any individual who wishes to be heard by the grand jury should be referred to the state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor) or to the foreperson of the grand jury, and thereafter be heard only in formal session of the grand jury.

      It is imperative that you always keep in mind that as a grand juror you are a public official, with the duty of protecting the public by enforcing the law of the land. Therefore, even though you may think a certain law to be unduly harsh or illogical, that should not influence your judgment in carrying out your duties as a grand juror. A citizen has the right to endeavor to change the law. A grand juror, being a public official, has a duty to enforce the law as it exists despite any personal inclinations to the contrary.

      The grand jury in addition to the duty of formally indicting those charged with crime has the further important duty of making investigations on its own initiative, which it will report as a "presentment." This duty permits investigation of how public officials are conducting their offices and discharging their public trusts. The grand jury may investigate as to whether public institutions are being properly administered and conducted. It has the power to inspect those institutions and, if necessary, may call before the grand jury those in charge of the operations of public institutions as well as any other person who has information and can testify concerning them. If the grand jury finds that an unlawful, improper, or corrupt condition exists, it may recommend a remedy.

      The grand jury may not act arbitrarily. Investigations shall not be based upon street rumor, gossip, or whim, and the investigations cannot be the subject of a grand jury presentment. The grand jury can only investigate those matters that are within its jurisdiction, geographic and otherwise. The limitations of the grand jury's jurisdiction have been set forth for you by the court in its instructions.

      It is important to keep in mind that no individual should be unjustly criticized or held up to scorn or public resentment, particularly when it is remembered that the individuals who may be criticized had no opportunity to defend themselves or give reply to the charges. A grand juror must keep in mind that the grand jury is the ultimate instrument of justice and should never be subverted to become the vehicle for harassment or oppression.

OFFICERS OF THE GRAND JURY

      The judge who presided over the impaneling of the grand jury in the "charge to the grand jury" advised you formally and in great detail as to how the grand jury is organized and functions. In summary, the grand jury consists of 15 but no more than 21 members. Its officers are the foreperson, who will preside over the grand jury deliberations to make sure they are carried on in an orderly fashion including overseeing the examination of the witnesses; a vice-foreperson, who will preside in the absence of the foreperson or if for any reason the foreperson is not able to carry out his or her duty; and the clerk, who will keep a record of the proceedings had before the grand jury and formally make return of these records to the clerk of the circuit court (or clerk of the Supreme Court in the case of the statewide grand jury) for safekeeping. The foreperson and vice-foreperson are appointed by the judge and the clerk is appointed by the foreperson (or in the case of the statewide grand jury, may be selected by the group). The state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor) or assistant state attorneys (or assistant statewide prosecutors) will act as the legal advisers to the grand jury. The grand jury also will be provided an official court reporter or recorder to record the testimony before the grand jury.

      If the grand jury has its own budget, a treasurer of the grand jury may also be appointed to keep account of all receipts and disbursements made to or from the grand jury budget.

      If any question should arise concerning how the grand jury shall operate or function, you may apply to the judge, who will advise you.

PROCEDURES

      Not less than 15 members of a grand jury must always be present to constitute a quorum. If less than a quorum exists, the proceedings of the grand jury must be halted until a quorum is present. Grand jurors, who, because of an emergency, find that they will be unable to attend a grand jury session should advise the grand jury clerk or foreperson immediately.

      An affirmative vote of at least 12 members of the grand jury is necessary to the return of a true bill or indictment. Therefore, even though a quorum is present it still requires at least 12 votes of individual members, rather than a mere majority of those present, in order to return a true bill.

PROCEEDINGS OF THE GRAND JURY

      Most of the work of the grand jury involves hearing witnesses and determining the sufficiency of evidence on the issue of whether that evidence, without regard to possible defenses, justifies indictment. Generally, the state attorney (or statewide prosecutor) or assistant state attorneys (or assistant statewide prosecutors) will present and explain the charge to the grand jury and advise as to the witnesses who will be presented, either voluntarily or upon being summoned on the request of the state attorney (or statewide prosecutor) or the grand jury itself. The grand jury may call any witness it deems appropriate and necessary.

      The witnesses will be called one by one and placed under oath to tell the truth. Generally, the state attorney (or statewide prosecutor) will administer the oath. This oath should be administered in a solemn, dignified, and deliberate manner in order to impress upon the witness the seriousness of the situation and the duty to be truthful. The state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor) or assistant state attorneys (or assistant statewide prosecutors) ordinarily will undertake to question the witnesses first. If the foreperson, or any member of the grand jury desires to do so, they then also may propound questions. It is suggested, however, that any question first be submitted to the state attorney (or statewide prosecutor), who will determine whether the question is appropriate.

      Grand jurors should keep in mind that they are acting in a judicial capacity and sitting in judgment of evidence before them. For this reason all questioning should be done in a calm, impartial, and objective manner without indicating the personal feelings of the person asking the questions.

      Occasionally, a witness when brought before the grand jury refuses to testify or answer questions. If this occurs, both the question the witness has refused to answer and the fact of refusal should be carefully recorded. The matter then should be brought before the court, with a complete copy of the record, in order to obtain from the court a ruling on whether the witness may be compelled to answer the question. In most instances a refusal to answer is based upon the claim of the witness that the answer will violate the constitutional right against self-incrimination. If the answer does tend to incriminate the witness, the witness cannot be made to answer. If it does not, however, the witness will be ordered to answer under penalty of contempt.

      An accused person cannot be compelled to testify before a grand jury although one under investigation by the grand jury may appear voluntarily to testify. In that event, however, the grand jury should proceed with great caution and should not permit one under investigation to testify until after first conferring with the state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor). If an accused, or any person under investigation, is permitted to testify before the grand jury without waiving the constitutional right against self-incrimination, any indictment or presentment would be null and void.

      It is clear that the matter of forcing a witness to testify or of giving the accused an opportunity to testify raises complicated legal questions. The advice of the state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor) and, when necessary, a ruling from the court, therefore, always should be sought when these questions arise.

      A witness is permitted to be represented before the grand jury by one attorney. The attorney may be present for the purpose of advising and consulting with the witness, but may not address the grand jurors, raise objections, or make arguments. (This provision does not apply to proceedings of the Statewide Grand Jury.)

DETERMINATION WHETHER TO RETURN AN
INDICTMENT OR A NO TRUE BILL

      When the grand jury has heard all necessary or available witnesses and is prepared to deliberate on the issue whether to indict or return a no true bill, the foreperson must compel all persons to leave the grand jury room except the members of the grand jury themselves. No other person is permitted in the grand jury room during its deliberations, even including the state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor), court reporter, and interpreter.

      When the question of whether to indict or return a no true bill is presented, all grand jurors have the right to comment on the evidence and to express their views of the matter. Only when all members of the grand jury have expressed themselves and each has been given the opportunity to be heard should a vote be taken. A vote to return an indictment can be found only upon the affirmative vote of at least 12 members of the grand jury.

      Similar proceedings should be taken when the matter to be discussed is not a criminal charge or indictment but a presentment, as noted above.

      If all persons, except the grand jurors, are not removed from the grand jury room during its deliberations, any indictment or presentment would be nullified.

THE STATE ATTORNEY (OR THE STATEWIDE PROSECUTOR)
AS LEGAL ADVISOR TO THE GRAND JURY

      The court in its charge to the grand jury outlined the part that the state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor) will play in assisting the grand jury. The state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor) will assume responsibility for presenting witnesses and bringing testimony before the grand jury. The state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor) is a public official and is entitled to the confidence and cooperation of the grand jury.

      It occurs sometimes, however, that even the best of advisors may be in error. If a difference of opinion arises between the state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor) and the grand jury and it cannot be resolved amicably, the matter should be brought before the presiding judge for a ruling.

SECRECY OF GRAND JURY PROCEEDINGS

      Secrecy as to all grand jury proceedings is of the utmost importance. This includes not only the actions upon an indictment or a presentment but even the fact that any such matter was considered, or any witness was called. It is only in this manner that the grand jurors themselves can be protected from pressure by persons who may be involved by the action of the grand jury. Secrecy also is the only protection that a witness may have before a grand jury, which will protect the witness from being tampered with or intimidated before testifying at the trial. Further, secrecy may prevent one under indictment, or subject to indictment, from escaping while the issue of indictment is under consideration. It also should be remembered that secrecy may encourage witnesses to give the grand jury frankly and candidly any knowledge they may have concerning crime or corruption. Lastly, and of equal importance to all other consideration of secrecy, is the fact that an innocent person who has been subjected to a charge but not indicted should be protected from the embarrassment and disgrace attendant upon the making of a charge before a grand jury.

      The pledge of secrecy is paramount. It also is permanent.

      A grand juror will not communicate to family, friends, associates, or anyone concerning any matter that takes place in the grand jury room. The only time this veil of secrecy may be lifted is by order of the court after a full hearing, and then only in exceptional cases.

PROTECTION AND IMMUNITY OF GRAND JURORS

      Grand jurors are fully protected from actions against them by being an independent body answerable to no one except the court that empanels it. No inquiry may be made to learn what grand jurors said or how they voted. The law gives the grand juror complete immunity for official acts. There is only one exception: if a grand juror testifies as a witness for the grand jury as to a commission of a crime and that testimony is perjured, the juror could be prosecuted for that perjury. This complete protection for the official acts obviously is vital to the operation of the grand jury and points up that grand jurors should be citizens of unquestionable integrity and high character.

ON BEING A GRAND JUROR --
SOME PRACTICAL SUGGESTIONS

      Attend all sessions of the grand jury. Your attendance should be regular and on time. If you are unable to attend a session and wish to be excused, obtain permission from the foreperson. The unexpected lack of a quorum could cause a great loss of money, as well as the time of the jurors, the authorities, and the witnesses. The public is depending on you.

      Pay close attention to testimony given and the evidence presented.

      Be courteous to the witnesses and your fellow jurors.

      Fix the time and place of your meetings, keeping in mind the convenience of the public and the witnesses as well as yourselves and the state attorney (and the statewide prosecutor).

      Do not interrupt until the state attorney (or the statewide prosecutor) has finished questioning the witness. In all probability the evidence you are interested in will be brought out by those questions.

      Listen to the opinions of your fellow jurors, but maintain your own independent viewpoint.

      Be independent, but not obstinate.

      Be absolutely fair. You are acting as a judge. You therefore must be guided by your own good conscience and sense of justice.

      All jurors have an equal voice in determining whether an indictment shall be returned. Each of you has a right to state your reasons.

      Do not remain silent when the case is under discussion and then, after a decision has been made, criticize the acts of the grand jury.

      A reckless grand jury is as bad as a weak grand jury.

      Do not attempt to investigate matters beyond the province of the grand jury, or merely because someone suggested an investigation.

      Above all, refrain from discussing grand jury matters with fellow jurors outside of the grand jury room.

      Each juror has a duty and responsibility equal to yours. Each juror is entitled to be satisfied with the evidence. If others wish to pursue a matter further, no effort should be made to dismiss the witness or shut off proper discussion.

CONCLUSION

      Your membership on the grand jury is an honor. You are one of the few citizens who have been called upon to perform this service. Your service as a grand juror will be a source of pride and satisfaction to you if you devote to it the responsible participation and dedicated service that the grand jury is entitled to expect from its members.

Comment

      The grand jury handbook was initially approved in 1981. It was amended in 1991, in June 2002, and September 2005.

http://74.125.45.104/search?q=cache:uwKLSJvKbV4J:www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/chapters/chapter30/flgrandjuryhandbook.rtf+How+does+a+grand+jury+work+%2B+Florida&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Homicide Charge May Be Brought Against Missing Toddler`s Mother

Aired October 8, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 16 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell tonight. Reports surface the state is set to seek homicide charges against tot mom Casey Anthony. WKMG reports the case heads to a secret grand jury in days. The only question, will the charge be manslaughter or murder? Even without a body, homicide charges reportedly will be handed down.

And in the last hours, hundreds of stunning documents and grainy surveillance video released. Mom, Casey, allegedly forges a stack of checks at the bank, Target, the grocery store, you name it! And it`s all caught on tape. Her 2-year-old vanishes, and she`s on surveillance video splurging on lingerie, clothing, sunglasses, sportswear, groceries for the boyfriends, even cases of Bud Lite. Notably, not one diaper, not one pacifier, not a toy -- nothing! -- for little Caylee. This as police confirm a surveillance camera trained 24/7/365 on the Anthony home. Tonight, where is 3-year-old Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news in the case of missing 3-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. CNN affiliate WKMG reports that tot mom Casey Anthony may soon be facing homicide charges relating to the disappearance of her daughter. The station`s reporting that the state attorney`s office plans to present its case to a grand jury next week, who will then determine if the state has enough evidence to charge Anthony with manslaughter or murder. According to WKMG, the state hopes to charge Anthony even without Caylee`s body being found.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Regardless of how it happened -- (INAUDIBLE) I don`t care. I will lie, I will steal, I will do whatever I can to find my daughter.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her 3-year-old daughter, Caylee, is missing. So what`s she doing? She`s out buying lingerie. Check out the video here. It`s Casey checking out at Target, buying the food, beer, the lingerie, of course. Prosecutors say she paid for that and other stuff by cashing hundreds of dollars worth of checks from her friend`s bank account, and today they released this video, along with other documents in their check fraud case against Casey.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Check number 146 from her ex-best friend`s checkbook. Investigators say this is one of the checks she used to clean out Amy Huizenga`s checking account.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ANTHONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: The grandmother -- came in and she goes, I hope you`re rich because Casey`s going to take all your money and leave you high and dry.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re here because? We got here how? To do what?

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I lied.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want you to tell me how lying to us is going to help us find your daughter.

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not going to.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Huh?

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not going to.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace, I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stunning developments in the case of missing toddler Caylee Anthony. Sources tell CNN affiliate WKMG that Caylee`s mother, 22-year-old Casey Anthony, could be facing homicide charges in the coming days. The Orlando station reports the grand jury is expected to meet next week, and that is where prosecutors will present their case, asking the grand jury to conclude they have enough evidence to take Anthony to trial on manslaughter or murder charges.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today they released this video, along with other documents in their check fraud case against Casey.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We see that she purchased that hoody that she was wearing when she was arrested. We also see she purchased those white sunglasses that she`s become known for wearing now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Records show Amy Huizenga told detectives Casey stole her checkbook and emptied her account, writing more than $700 in forged checks to Target, Winn Dixie, and even to herself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I kept say, Well, I don`t get it. What`s in it for you? Why are you letting, you know, the police get involved with this? This seems -- this doesn`t make any sense to me. She`s, like, Well, maybe this should have been done a long time ago. I`ve stolen money from Mom. I`ve been a bad daughter. You know, I`ve been -- she said, I`ve stolen money from you. You know, I`ve been untrustworthy, you know. And she goes, And maybe I have been a -- you know, a bad mother, a daughter and sister. And she said, you know, So this should have been done a long time ago.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You lied to us purposely (ph), or you tried to mislead us. Which of those two is it?

CASEY ANTHONY: I purposely misled you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, so you purposely misled us. This was all in an attempt to help find your daughter, right? That makes sense to you, correct?

CASEY ANTHONY: Again, in a backwards sort of way, yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Jessica D`Onofrio with CNN affiliate WKMG, who broke the story that prosecutors plan to seek homicide charges in the coming days against tot mom Casey Anthony. Jessica, what do you know?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Well, Nancy, they are going to bring this in front of a grand jury on Tuesday. I`m still trying to find out whether they are planning to bring a manslaughter charge or whether they want to present a murder charge in front of this grand jury.

But I can tell you that people have already been asked to clear their schedules for Tuesday because they are going to be subpoenaed to appear in front of that grand jury and testify in front of them. You`re going to see friends, you`re going to see family, you`re going to see detectives, you`re going to see lab techs subpoenaed to go and testify in front of this grand jury. And of course, Casey could be subpoenaed, as well, but she does not have to talk to them.

Now, as we have been mentioning, you know, you can bring this case and prosecute without a body, and you know, if they can`t convince this grand jury to go and send this to trial, we know that they can still try and try again after that because murder has no statute of limitations here. And you`ve got to remember, too, that the prosecution, as we have been reporting for weeks now, they have hair samples, air samples, cadaver dogs alerting to a decomposing body in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car. And you also have that chloroform found at high levels in the trunk.

So you also have to remember, too, we might not know everything that the prosecution has at this point. They could have a much stronger case than we know. So we`re going to see what happens...

GRACE: We just lost Jessica. We`ll get her right back up. That`s Jessica D`Onofrio joining us from Orlando, Florida. She`s with WKMG that breaks the story, murder charge, homicide charges set to come down in the coming days.

We are taking your calls live. We`ll be right back with Jessica. Let`s unleash the lawyers, Renee Rockwell out of Atlanta and fellow defense attorney John Burris out of San Francisco. John Burris, why would you give the grand jury anything less than a murder case? Because it will be up to a petite jury, which is a jury of 12 -- a grand jury is a jury between 18 and 43 people that simply bring the charges -- and then let the jury of 12 decide whether it will be voluntary, involuntary, murder, murder one or not guilty.

JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Actually, I agree with you on this because I think, given that they do not have -- the evidence that they have, if they`re going to use it for any kind of homicide, can be used either for murder or manslaughter because, actually, they have no information as to whether it`s murder or manslaughter.

So I think that what they`re really doing here is throwing the kitchen sink out here and see if something will stick. But once you do that, it could be murder or manslaughter because you don`t have the mens rea, the mental state, to tell you what actually happened during the course of this homicide, assuming that there is a homicide. You know...

GRACE: Whoa! Whoa-whoa! Whoa-whoa! Whoa-whoa! Hold your horses, John, because one thing, and it`s very critical as to the date of this element, the search on Casey Anthony`s computer regarding chloroform. That, to me, would suggest premeditation, since chloroform in large amounts was found in her car trunk, along with evidence of a dead body. That in itself could prove premeditation for murder one.

BURRIS: Well, that`s true. I mean, I don`t disagree that there`s evidence out here that would cause that. But I don`t know that you take these things apiece by themselves and take the chloroform and put that out there, I don`t know that that proves anything other than it`s chloroform. You don`t have any...

GRACE: Well -- hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey...

BURRIS: ... way to tie it into...

GRACE: ... hey, hey, hey! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! We`re not at the jury rail yet, Burris!

BURRIS: Oh, no question about it.

GRACE: We`re still going to the grand jury. Right now...

BURRIS: You`re right.

GRACE: ... all we`re getting is a charging document. Yes, no, Renee Rockwell?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, let me just put it this way, Nancy. I think they`re going to present what they have. And we don`t know what they have. But Nancy, if they throw it all up now and the jury says, No, you don`t have enough, they`re not out of the ball game. They can come back three months from now. So it`ll be interesting to see what does shake out from this grand jury.

GRACE: And she`s referring to -- Renee is referring to the ability for the state to go to a grand jury, a secret grand jury, repeatedly in order to get charges handed down. Not so before a petite jury, a jury of 12. Once you take the case to a jury at trial, that`s it. You cannot retry the case if there is an acquittal.

Back to Jessica D`Onofrio. You said this may be presented to a grand jury for homicide charges against tot mom Casey Anthony as early as Tuesday?

D`ONOFRIO: That`s right, Nancy. That`s what they`d like to do. This grand jury has been sitting for a few months now, so I believe they`re going to get this in. This will be the last case that the grand jury hears on Tuesday before it dissolves, and then they`ll be seating a brand-new grand jury for the next couple months ahead.

So I believe that Lawson Lamar (ph), our state attorney, is going to get this case in front of this grand jury before they`re dissolved and before another one has to be seated.

GRACE: Right now, you are seeing footage we have just obtained of mom, Casey Anthony`s, shopping spree throughout the days following her little girl`s disappearance.

And out to you, Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. You know, if I were conducting a search for somebody that I loved that had gone missing, you got to have a couple of these along with you!

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: You know, she goes out and buys sexy lingerie, cases of beer, sportswear, sunglasses. In fact, she even buys that hoody that we see her going in and out of her lawyer`s office wearing, on somebody else`s checks. These are all stolen items.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Unbelievable, Nancy. And in fact, maybe she had on the new camisole underneath her hoody when she got locked up on July 16. But if you look at July 15, the day that her whole world came crumbling down, Amy Huizenga, her best friend`s checking account, that was $49.99, but her statement on June 20, there was $2,125.47. That`s what I call a really best friend.

GRACE: And I want to go back to the lawyers, Renee Rockwell and John Burris. There`s the hoody right there on the left that she basically stole, according to the state, with stolen checks. Her friend -- dropped her friend off at the airport. Isn`t this right, Mark Williams? Drops the friend, Amy Huizenga, off at the airport -- Mark with us, WNDB Newsradio -- and within a couple of hours has cleaned out her car of all the checks that were in the glove compartment. She`s out at Target.

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSRADIO 1150: Oh, yes. She discovered those checks and she went on that shopping spree, eventually using about $1,300 worth of Amy`s money, anything from the hoodies to the bras to you name it, but nothing for Caylee.

GRACE: Mark, I don`t care about the bra and the items. What I care about is what does this mean about her state of mind regarding her missing little girl? Take a look. You decide. Look at her on her shopping spree.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I went day by day with Jesse, and he`s got a lot of discrepancies. In fact, I wrote down everything as he was talking to me, and he changed his story two and three times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jesse not only took a voluntary lie detector and passed, he went to law enforcement and gave two official statements before Cindy`s even given one. In that interview, if you look, they can`t even get her to give them her credit card records.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve asked you for your credit card records. I asked you for that that same morning. Where are they?

CINDY ANTHONY: There`s nothing on there. We already looked at them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. See, that`s the answer I can`t have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Breaking news tonight, the state apparently taking this case to the grand jury next week, according to local affiliate WKMG. I`m not talking about bad checks or fraud, even though here you see on grainy surveillance video tot mom Casey Anthony loading up on the Bud Lite in her search for little Caylee. We`re talking about homicide charges.

We`re taking your calls live. Out to Luanne in South Carolina. Hi, Luanne.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. We really appreciate everything that you do.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If I have the facts straight, Casey had a huge argument with her mother before she left their house with Caylee, correct?

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. I really think that whatever she did to Caylee, she did out of spite towards her mother. But how much time elapsed from the time she left her parents` house and when she was having these shopping sprees and also when the car was found?

GRACE: Out to Natisha Lance, our producer, who has been in Orlando from the beginning. What`s the timeline on that, Natisha?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, she had the argument on June 15. Now, she started the shopping spree on July 8, and the car was found at the Amscot, were (ph) reported there about June 30.

GRACE: There you go. Those are the dates, the relevant dates that Luanne in South Carolina wanted to know about. Repeat, Natisha. When was the car found at Amscot??

LANCE: June 30.

GRACE: June 30. She leaves June 15, car abandoned June 30. She`s still gone from the home. The family finds out about the car because they get a tow notice, correct, Natisha?

LANCE: That`s correct, Nancy.

GRACE: And then the mom goes over to the boyfriend`s house to bring tot mom back home on what day?

LANCE: She goes over there on July 15.

GRACE: And the shopping spree that you are seeing for groceries for her boyfriend, a case of Bud Lite, bras, lingerie, nighties, clothing, sunglasses, sportswear, food -- that`s just a tiny bit of what all she bought during her search for Caylee.

And you know -- to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter joining me out of Sacramento, California -- he first put up the $500,000 bond to get her out of jail before he came off that bond. I don`t care about the -- let`s see, the $14.99 nighty she bought or the case of beer. You know what? I`d be mad if you didn`t, Casey Anthony. But what I`m concerned about, Leonard, is what this will say to a jury when they see with their own eyes her state of mind while her child was missing.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: The loudest statement that those purchases will make is there`s nothing in there -- there isn`t an item in there for Caylee.

But let me correct something that Natisha said. The car was actually spotted parked at the Amscot by Mrs. Sanchez (ph), the manager of the store there, on the morning of the 27. We believe and we are pretty sure we know that she came back out of Tony`s house around 10:00 o`clock that morning, drove the car off to her mom`s, called J.C. Penney, then went on further towards the airport, where -- my associate, Rob Dick, has narrowed down an area by the airport where he believes the body will be found. And Tim from Equusearch is headed out there in the morning. And I`m telling you, I`m putting my money on Tim finding that body before Tuesday.

GRACE: You know, another thing. And Natisha, there is a difference from the time the car was first spotted and when it was reported. I think you were accurate in your data on that, but Padilla is correct about the spotting, the day the car was spotted, run out of gas, there at the check cash place.

Back to the lawyers, Renee Rockwell, John Burris. You know, this list of people that may be going before the grand jury -- John Burris, very often, when I would present to a grand jury, I would bring on maybe the victim, if it were a violent crime, but typically, you bring on the detective. You don`t need a parade of witnesses. A detective, hearsay, the course of conduct, everything`s allowed in a grand jury proceeding, unlike at trial.

So very often, you don`t need a parade of witnesses. You can bring on one or two of the detectives on the case to present the case to the grand jury, John.

BURRIS: Well, that`s actually true. But I think that this case here, they want to present as much evidence as they can because, actually, a lot of this evidence is circumstantial. And they really want to get a -- some feedback, if they can, from the grand jury members to see how this evidence really is playing out. Typically, you would not go before the grand jury unless you thought you were going to get some kind of an indictment of some kind. But I think they also want to hear the feedback from the jury. They want to hear the firsthand testimony because otherwise, it may not be evidence that can withstand cross-examination.

GRACE: You know, Renee, I feel the exact opposite, as a former prosecutor, because I want to keep that case to the grand jury lean and mean. A detective can talk about hearsay, what every witness told him or her. Why bring in the witness for cross-examination because that grand jury transcript may have to be handed over to the defense come trial time. Why give them a how-to manual!

ROCKWELL: And if it is -- that testimony is transcribed and recorded and can be changed, and then you`ll have a witness that can be impeached. But Nancy, don`t you think it`s interesting that this is the last case of this grand jury term? And a lot of times, the prosecutor will strategically put a case in front of a well-seasoned and experienced grand jury because sometimes, you`ll get a different read from that grand jury than you will from a brand-new grand jury. I just think it`s interesting.

GRACE: I think that`s a good point. Back to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG, who broke the story. Jessica, you said that a lot of people may expect subpoenas to grand jury next week on homicide charges for mom, Casey Anthony. Have subpoenas been received yet?

D`ONOFRIO: No, Nancy, they haven`t. I haven`t heard that they have gone out today. You know, the question was, would they cut them today, tomorrow, maybe closer to Friday. I know that the initial plan was to send them out on Monday so that people would know to be there on Tuesday. However, they have a lot of people that they are likely serving for this grand jury, so it may take them a couple days to serve those subpoenas.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She seemed like everything was normal. She always seemed like she had a smile on her face. You know, if there was laundry to be done, she would take care of that. You know, she would cook dinner sometimes in the evenings for us when we got home. I think one night, she made pasta for everyone.

GRACE: Did she ever mention over the pasta dinner that her 2-year-old girl was gone?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She did not mention to us that Caylee was missing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Bombshell tonight. According to WKMG`s Jessica D`Onofrio, homicide charges expected to come down next week before a Florida grand jury. Back to Jessica D`Onofrio. Any idea who will be called before the grand jury?

D`ONOFRIO: I know that George Anthony has been asked to clear his schedule for Tuesday. I know Cindy has, too. Those are two definites. I`ve also -- I also understand that you will hear from lab technicians, from detectives, that they will be subpoenaed, as well. And of course, you`re going to probably hear from her friends, Tony Lazzaro, him being an ex-boyfriend, and most likely Amy Huizenga.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ANTHONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: I found out the -- night of the 15th when Casey actually was at my apartment, and her mother and Amy showed up to my house.

They left, and I had no idea. So I looked up Amy`s phone in Casey`s phone and gave her a call, and she notified me to check my bank account and everybody else in my apartment check their bank account because she took money from her.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Just released and obtained by us, this surveillance video of tot mom Casey Anthony in the days after her little girl reportedly goes missing. There she is buying a case of Bud Lite along with different pit stops during her shopping spree, lingerie, clothing, sports wear, sunglasses, groceries for her boyfriend, and his roommates.

It`s not so much what she bought that is at issue tonight, as this case apparently heads to a grand jury on homicide charges. It`s the timing. Timing is crucial. These purchases made in the days and weeks following the alleged kidnapping by a nanny of her little girl.

A jury, a grand jury, as well, will be allowed to see this video to assess for themselves her demeanor.

Straight out to the lines, to Jennifer in Washington, hi, Jennifer.

JENNIFER, WASHINGTON RESIDENT: Hi. First I have a comment, and then a question. My comment is -- it`s just nauseating to me that the general public who isn`t even blood lines with Caylee seems to show more concern for her than her own mother does.

And being that Casey seems to tell these huge whoppers of lies that are obviously going to be easily proven to be lies, I`m wondering, is her pathological lying -- is that a symptom of a mental illness? Is it a mental illness in its own right, or is it just what it is? It`s just her pathological lying to get whatever she wants.

GRACE: Excellent question, Jennifer in Washington.

Out to Dr. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist, what about it, Leslie?

DR. LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: That`s a great question. It`s one of a list of characteristics that are very, very powerfully indicating extreme sociopathy here. This is a person who`s perfectly happy to clearly break the law, is only concerned with herself, is not focused on her child, and is conducting apparently criminal behavior.

GRACE: OK.

AUSTIN: So the pathological lies exist.

GRACE: Can you speak -- speak in English for me? Sociopathy? Are you saying, Dr. Austin, that she has a legitimate mental illness?

AUSTIN: No, I`m not saying it`s...

GRACE: OK.

AUSTIN: . a mental illness that excuses her actions but it is descriptive of someone who would commit criminal acts. There`s a characteristic behavior.

GRACE: OK, yes, no?

AUSTIN: Yes, she would criminal act.

GRACE: Is it a symptom of a mental illness? That`s the question.

AUSTIN: It`s a personality disorder, not a mental illness.

GRACE: Got it.

AUSTIN: She.

GRACE: Thank you, Dr. Leslie Austin.

AUSTIN: OK.

GRACE: Back to the lines, June in Florida. Hi, June.

JUNE, FLORIDA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

JUNE: I have a couple of question. We see how Casey did her first search for her daughter. The judge, she is asking for a second search. Did the judge allow that? Have we.

GRACE: That is going to the judge on Friday. She will make a cameo appearance in court.

June, what`s your next question?

JUNE: And is Equifax or Equusearch, are they going to do another search this weekend? I live in Florida.

GRACE: June -- oh, June, good to know. Let`s go straight to Mandy Albritton, the deputy director of Equusearch.

Miss Albritton, thank you for being with us. You`re headed back -- Equusearch is headed back this week, correct?

MANDY ALBRITTON, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, EQUUSEARCH: Well, actually, Tim Miller is on his way back into town. First he`s going to be meeting with Orlando on the (INAUDIBLE) case, but while he is down there, he is going to go ahead and review that search area where we were last time, look at the ground conditions, see if the water has receded, and if the vegetation is going to allow us to get in and search.

GRACE: So I take that as a yes. Equusearch is headed back to Florida, hopefully to search for Caylee.

ALBRITTON: Well, that is a yes. However, the official time line on when we`re actually going to have searchers in the field is yet to be determined. But, yes, we are coming back.

GRACE: To Mark Williams, the area that Leonard Padilla refers us to repeatedly, what type of area is that?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: It`s a typical unincorporated area of Orange County. We`re taking a look at a lot of woods, we`re taking a look at some water out in that area.

That`s why Equusearch really couldn`t get into the real good searching mode, because we had a tropical storm which blew through here a couple weeks ago.

GRACE: Right.

WILLIAMS: And what happened is some of these low-lying areas filled up and as Tim mentioned last night on the air, he didn`t want to go stepping on any evidence, like the horses or put anybody else in danger. But if anybody can find anybody, it will be Tim Miller.

GRACE: Back to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California. In a nutshell, where is it that you believe they`re going to search?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: I don`t have the map here in front of me, but it`s just southeast of the home, northwest to the airport. There is a small area there where the two towers -- she was right in the middle of the two towers.

Now let me add something to this that`s very important. On the 27th after she goes back to Amscot and picks up her car, goes to the house, comes to this area, immediately thereafter, she calls Amy and she says, "I got rid of the smell in the car. I scraped off the squirrels."

You go to the transcripts, and you`ll read that and it`s a -- minutes after she leaves that area and goes back up north to Amscot.

GRACE: OK. And the area is south of what?

PADILLA: It`s south of the residence and north of the airport. It`s just right in between there.

GRACE: OK. To -- and that is a heavily wooded or swampy area, Leonard?

PADILLA: It`s a little of both. There`s combinations. But there`s a road that cuts through from the northwest to the southeast. It cuts right through there. I don`t have a map with me, so it`s difficult to explain. But there is an area right there.

GRACE: To Dr. Michael Arnall, board certified pathologist joining us out of Denver, Colorado -- Dr. Arnall, thank you for being with us. If the remains are found at this point, you are now familiar with the weather and the terrain conditions, what would you expect to find if the remains were discovered?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: If the remains are found above ground, small animals will likely have scattered the bones. It`s been hot, it`s been humid, there`s been insect activity. A lot of the soft tissue will have been removed.

However, if the body was underground or perhaps even under water, a lot of that disruption may not have occurred and there may still be forensic evidence present.

GRACE: Dr. Arnall, do you believe, if remains are found at this time, we will be able to determine cause of death?

ARNALL: If they`re underground? It`s entirely possible. If there are broken bones, and they find those bones, yes, they`ll be able to diagnose broken bones and make a diagnosis on the cause of death.

GRACE: But a broken bone a murder does not make. If there were -- there was only soft tissue damaged such as by smothering or strangulation, I don`t believe you`re going to be able to determine that if the remains are found now.

ARNALL: If the person was smothered with a plastic bag, the plastic bag may still be around the skull. If the person was strangled, the hyoid bone may be broken. And they may be able to make that diagnosis.

I agree with you, I agree with you that decomposition has a significant possibility of obscuring evidence. However, if they find ligatures or plastic bag over the head or duct tape around the mouth or a gag around the mouth.

GRACE: Right.

ARNALL: Then they will use that nonhuman evidence to assist them in making the diagnosis.

GRACE: And very quickly, Liz, please go back to Dr. Michael Arnall. Could you show us the hyoid bone, please?

ARNALL: The hyoid bone is right above your Adam`s apple in the neck, and when a person is strangled, when pressure is placed around the voice box, you can break that little horseshoe shaped bone that`s right above the voice box...

GRACE: Right.

ARNALL: . right above your Adam`s apple.

GRACE: And to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI -- Mike, weigh in.

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, Nancy, I think the grand jury is going to be the most important thing right now. You`ve got 82 people on this list, 35 of them are law enforcement.

If they`re going to take a number of the law enforcement, they`re going to testify, evidence technicians and also, another key person on putting together this time line -- Leonard is talking about the towers -- and that`s going to be the custodian of records for AT&T, her cell phone carrier.

They`re going to be able to come on and talk about the time line, where she was on a certain date at a certain place, and that`s going to play a key role in putting -- in putting this whole thing together.

GRACE: Mike Brooks, absolutely correct. Everyone, quick break. We are taking your calls live.

Homicide charges set to come down next week against tot mom Casey Anthony. And this case makes me appreciate my blessings even more.

At your request, photos of the twins. John David in his big-boy pajamas for the first time. I had to get Lucy new ones, as well.

Oh, we`re taking them on a sleigh ride across the den floor in a laundry basket.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

GRANDMOTHER: I have a 22-year-old person that has grand theft, including in my auto, with me.

OPERATOR: So the 22-year-old person stole something?

GRANDMOTHER: Yes.

OPERATOR: Is this a relative?

GRANDMOTHER: Yes.

OPERATOR: Where did they steal it from?

GRANDMOTHER: My car and also money.

OPERATOR: OK. Is this your son?

GRANDMOTHER: Daughter.

OPERATOR: OK. So your daughter stole money from your car?

GRANDMOTHER: No. My car was stolen, we`ve retrieved it today, we found out where it was at. We retrieved it. I got that, and I`ve got affidavits to my banking account. I want to bring her in.

OPERATOR: OK.

GRANDMOTHER: I want to press charges.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Breaking news tonight. According to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG, she is breaking the story that prosecutors plan to take this case to a grand jury next week, seeking homicide charges.

Back to Jessica D`Onofrio. Jessica, I know we don`t know right now specifically what charge prosecutors will seek. What is your take?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG REPORTER, BROKE STORY THAT STATE PLANS TO SEEK HOMICIDE CHARGES: You know, Nancy, that`s a good question. I`m a little surprised that they brought this case to a grand jury so soon. So I don`t know if I`d be the right person to ask, because I`ve been hearing al along -- I pretty much thought no body, no case here.

So I`ve been operating under the assumption that they would wait quite some time before they brought some kind of a homicide case to a grand jury.

GRACE: So bottom line, we don`t know what the charge is going to be?

D`ONOFRIO: I don`t know, Nancy. I wish I did. And I`m trying to find out.

GRACE: Back to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. A homicide case without a body is not uncommon. The prosecutors typically do not give a gold star to murderers that manage to hide or disassemble the body.

BROOKS: Oh absolutely not, Nancy. You know, everybody is saying, well, if she is charged now with either homicide or manslaughter, will she get a deal? She was offered a deal a long time ago, if you recall, Nancy, that limited immunity deal.

So I say if she`s indicted and they get -- there`s a grand jury (INAUDIBLE), they arrest her for either homicide or manslaughter, there is not going to be any deal because one has already been on the table and that`s it.

GRACE: Back to the lawyers, Renee Rockwell, out of Atlanta, John Burris, attorney out of San Francisco.

John Burris, what are the choices? What are the choices, in a nutshell -- don`t go pontificating on me -- that would be given to a grand jury as far as charges go?

JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think they have to -- murder, and they don`t have to define whether it`s first or second and on manslaughter or involuntary manslaughter.

My sense is, right now, given everything are that they will go with murder. They can always go down from there, but I think they have as much evidence on murder as they have for manslaughter, so you go for the most you can get. That`s assuming you can get it.

GRACE: Well.

BURRIS: Now I`m not convinced they can get it.

GRACE: . I`ve got one thing I want to add. I think they can easily get an indictment.

Renee, I think.

BURRIS: Well, you (INAUDIBLE).

GRACE: What? What, Burris?

BURRIS: When the grand jury goes forward, they generally get an indictment.

GRACE: Yes.

BURRIS: . when the prosecutor makes a request. That generally happens. It doesn`t happen -- they don`t reject it very often.

GRACE: To.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Can I just jump in and say one thing. It might not be an indictment that they`re seeking right now, because don`t forget, you can use the grand jury as an investigative tool.

82 witnesses, 35 of them are law enforcement. Those other witnesses, including Casey`s parents, are going to be made to testify, and it will be interesting to get their stories locked down, Nancy.

GRACE: To Renee, I was about to ask you. I agree with Burris, except I would add in one other charge. Since nobody asked me, I think they should add in a request for a felony murder charge. What that would mean.

ROCKWELL: Based on the chloroform?

GRACE: Yes. What that would mean is, if a jury chose to believe that mom Casey Anthony was assaulting the child, such as chloroforming her, or shaking her, and a death occurred, that would be treated as a murder under the felony murder statute. A death that occurs in the commission of a felony, Renee, yes or no?

ROCKWELL: That`s right, I agree with you.

GRACE: You think that they will?

ROCKWELL: I think that they`ll throw it up.

BURRIS: I think you need a body for that, though. I think you need a body for that, because you`re talking about.

ROCKWELL: Well, you have to have a theory for it.

GRACE: You do. You got to have.

BURRIS: I know. You got to have a body. I think you`ve got to have a theory for the aggravated assault, you`re right, Renee.

Burris, they have to have a theory on the ag assault. They have to have a theory, such as aggravated assault by smothering, aggravated assault by -- chloroform.

BURRIS: And they got to have some evidence for that.

GRACE: And they don`t necessarily have that.

BURRIS: They need the body for that. I think they need a body.

GRACE: Yes. Yes.

BURRIS: I think we got to have a body for that.

GRACE: Agree. Agree. I agree with the two of you. Legally.

To Corie in North Carolina, hi, Corie.

CORIE, NORTH CAROLINA RESIDENT: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

CORIE: I was wondering, when it shows her buying the beer at Target, was she using Amy`s i.d., because she clearly shows an ID and then write the check.

GRACE: Well, you`re never going to believe this, Corie.

To Mark Williams, explain how she wrote some of the checks.

WILLIAMS: Well, her first check that she wrote on July 8th, she bought some things at Target, and she signed her name to Amy Huizinga`s check.

GRACE: Her own name.

WILLIAMS: You bet. And the clerk never even checked, because we could have nipped this in the bud a long time ago, Nancy.

GRACE: Yes. What it was she used her identification, Casey Anthony signed her name, Casey Anthony to Huizinga`s check.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

GRACE: And they checked the I.D. to signature, but not to the top of the check.

Out to Anne in New York, hi, Anne.

ANNE, NEW YORK RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. I just want to applaud you for all of your efforts. I enjoy your show.

GRACE: Thank you.

ANNE: I have two questions, Nancy.

GRACE: Yes.

ANNE: It`s so upsetting. Number one, I understand the biological father was married. Did anyone ever check out with the -- the wife?

GRACE: OK. What`s the second question?

ANNE: The other one is, again, I applaud for all of the efforts, but I wanted to know, with everything exposed, nationally, how is Casey Anthony going to get a fair trial?

GRACE: Well, you do recall the O.J. Simpson double murder trial, right, Anne? Do I still have Anne, Elizabeth?

Anne, do you recall the O.J. Simpson murder trial?

ANNE: Yes, I do.

GRACE: That was a not guilty and I would challenge you and your theory that this case has received about as much or a little less attention than O.J. Simpson got and he got a not guilty. So believe me.

ANNE: Yes, I do.

GRACE: . you can get an impartial jury. But as to the bio dad question, what about it, Mark Williams?

WILLIAMS: Well, as far as we know, that was the first time I`ve heard that he may have been married. But the Florida Highway Patrol says he was killed in a traffic accident here in the Orlando area more than a year ago.

So that`s where that -- that issue was ended and the minute they brought up they -- one television station went to the parents and they denied that their son every impregnated Casey Anthony.

GRACE: Back to Jessica D`Onofrio, do you believe that anyone else in the Anthony family other than the mom and dad will testify before the grand jury?

D`ONOFRIO: Absolutely. And going back to, you know, listening to everybody talk earlier is that, I can assure you that no one should underestimate the investigation here. There`s a lot more we have not heard in -- that`s been in the public yet. Trust me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Out to the lines, Paul in Arkansas, hi Paul.

PAUL, ARKANSAS RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

PAUL: If the grand jury indicts her and charge her with manslaughter, if he finds her guilty, can they go back and recharge her for murder or.

GRACE: No.

PAUL: Or would that be double jeopardy?

GRACE: That would be double jeopardy -- they`ll be charges stemming out of the same incident. Good question. That`s why I think they should go -- try to go with murder one and if the jury wants to respond, the petite jury of 12, wants to come back with a lesser, at least they have the opportunity to go with murder one.

Back to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California, what do you make? What do you make of the grand jury, allegedly, reportedly, hearing charges on homicide on Tuesday? Think it will stick?

PADILLA: Yes. And let me tell you why they brought it to the grand jury on the last day, because that gives them two bites of the apple. In other words, if this jury for some reason or others, were to reject the charges and not indict her, they got a new one coming right around the corner.

And that`s why sometimes the prosecutor will bring one in at the end of the jury`s term, and -- knowing that if they get rejected, they got a new one right around the corner.

GRACE: And Leonard.

PADILLA: But she`s going to get indicted.

GRACE: . what do you make of Equusearch coming back to search for little Caylee?

PADILLA: They`ve complete the ping list. They`ve got the longitude, the latitude point of references where she made her phone calls.

GRACE: They didn`t have that before?

PADILLA: It`s a very lengthy, lengthy process and I don`t believe law enforcement wanted to turn it loose before they went to the grand jury. Equusearch is going out there to see what the conditions on the ground in that area are.

And I could tell you this, that she`s got about five days in which to cancel that grand jury indictment and that is by giving up where the body is, because if she doesn`t give it up, that grand jury is going to go through and then there`s no retreat from that.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Steven Christofferson, 20, Cutaway, Wisconsin, killed Iraq. Proud to serve his country, awarded the Bronze Star and Purple Heart. Loved football wrestling, running tracks.

Leaves behind grieving parents who serve the Air Force and best friends, his younger brothers, Dylan and Dakota.

Steven Christofferson, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. As much as the world pauses tonight for (INAUDIBLE), we wish you the blessings on this special evening.

I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/08/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

State Will Seek Homicide Charges Against Missing Toddler`s Mother

Aired October 9, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 16 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell. The state set to seek homicide charges against tot mom Casey Anthony, the case heading to a secret grand jury in days. Only question, will the charge be manslaughter or murder? Casey Anthony refusing to go before that grand jury, but tomorrow morning, she appears personally before a judge to plead her case to be released from house arrest, her defense even mocking the grand jury system. Grandparents Cindy and George and brother Lee likely witnesses against their own daughter and sister.

And we learn DNA will play a major role in their testimony. Also set to testify, investigators, friends, the live-in. We learn while the grandparents consent, investigators are forced to seek a search warrant for DNA for mom Casey`s brother, Lee.

And tonight, has motive for murder been revealed? Even without a body, investigators confident they have the evidence for a conviction, the state presenting hair, fluid, cadaver dog and chloroform evidence to the grand jury all connected to mom Casey`s car trunk. And tonight, Texas Equusearch on the ground again in Orlando to resume the search for the 3- year-old. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hate to break it to you, Casey Anthony, your time may be up. Local media reports an Orlando grand jury meets next week, and prosecutors are pushing for homicide charges.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Preparing for the worst, hoping for the best. That`s what defense attorney Jose Baez told the "Today" show. But Baez did not say whether he expects Casey Anthony to be indicted on homicide charges in the disappearance of her 3-year-old daughter, Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony waited a month before contacting authorities about her disappearance. Newly-released surveillance video isn`t helping Anthony. She can be seen shopping for lingerie and beer just weeks after her little girl disappeared. Investigators believe the little girl, Caylee, is dead. While her body hasn`t been found, lab tests turned up evidence of human decomposition in the trunk of her mother`s car.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: See, I know and you know that everything you`ve told me is a lie, correct?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Not everything I told you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Pretty much everything that you`ve told me, including where Caylee is right now.

CASEY ANTHONY: That I still -- I don`t know where she is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure you do. And you...

CASEY ANTHONY: I absolutely do not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me -- let me...

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Baez says it would be pointless for Anthony to testify at a grand jury, saying it`s her right not to testify and in a proceeding where it`s, quote, "a one-side affair." He says police gave up looking for Caylee a long time ago and blames the media for that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything you`ve told me so far has been a lie. I`ve gone to every address that you`ve told me. I`ve talked to every name -- I`ve talked to every person that you`ve told me to talk to, or tried to. I found out all these names that you`ve given me are people that either never were here or have been fired here for a long time ago, OK? SO where we are right now is in a position that doesn`t look very good for you.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Florida investigators believe they can prove to a grand jury Casey Anthony killed her 3-year-old daughter Caylee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned her.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They plan on piecing together inconsistencies from interviews she gave police, as well as presenting evidence from Anthony`s car. And they also plan on showing Anthony had been doing computer searches on chloroform. Investigators are hoping without a body, crime scene, confession or witness that the evidence they do have will be enough for a homicide charge. A grand jury meets next Tuesday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG, who broke the news that this case is headed to a secret grand jury, likely on Tuesday. Jessica, what more can you tell us?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Well, Nancy, we do know that that is going happen on Tuesday. This case is going to go to a grand jury. They will hear it. It`ll be the last case that this grand jury hears before they dissolve.

I know that family is going to be subpoenaed. They will testify. We`re talking about George and Cindy Anthony, Casey`s parents, being called to testify in front of that grand jury. And the more and more I talk about it with people I know who are very close to this case, it`s looking more and more like they are going go for a murder case here instead of a manslaughter case. The idea being, why not go for all of it and then get manslaughter or something lesser later.

But you know, I think that people really need to know that this investigation -- they have hair samples, air samples. They have cadaver dogs alerting to the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car that there was a decomposing body there. And you know, they have a lot more evidence that we don`t know about, particularly involving motive here.

GRACE: To Mark Williams with WNDB Newsradio 1150. Significant, in the Florida jurisdiction, only certain and limited cases go to a grand jury. Explain.

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSRADIO 1150: Well, what we know is that it`s only capital cases that go to the grand juries here in the state of Florida. That`s been the way it has proceeded for the past many years. And you know, any time -- anyplace from 2 to 20 or even more witnesses can be called in front of a grand jury. Now, right now on the list, there`s about 35 law enforcement officers ready to testify against Casey Anthony.

GRACE: Mark Williams, have you seen the list?

WILLIAMS: Not yet, but...

GRACE: Then how do you know there`s 35 people set to testify?

WILLIAMS: This is -- this is what I`m receiving off the street from a lot of my sources that I`ve contacted and talked to over the last day or so. And of course, as Jessica reported, George and Cindy Anthony are supposed to be there. Lee Anthony obviously will be called, as well. And they`ve also taken those DNA swabs both from George and Cindy, but they needed a search warrant to get a DNA swab from brother Lee, who didn`t want to give up his DNA initially.

GRACE: Standing outside the Anthony home, joining us from Orlando, our producer, Natisha Lance. Is it true, Natisha, have you been able to confirm, that Lee Anthony refused a polygraph?

OK. When we get Natisha back, we`ll be straight back with her.

What about it, Mark Williams?

WILLIAMS: Well, from what we understand -- and this is from Leonard Padilla, who was -- who came to Orlando a couple of weeks ago. He`s the bounty hunter from Sacramento, California, who first bailed Casey Anthony out of jail. They were all sitting in the motor home, and Lee went inside the house. They were given the opportunity to do a lie detector test, a polygraph test, to clear everybody, the Anthonys plus Lee. And Lee went in there and told his parents not to do it, and he didn`t do it. So they couldn`t clear him.

GRACE: So I guess that is a no. He has -- he`s not taken a polygraph.

WILLIAMS: No.

GRACE: He has refused the polygraph.

WILLIAMS: That`s right.

GRACE: You know what`s significant? Let`s unleash the lawyers. Everyone, we`re taking your calls live. Joining us tonight, felony prosecutor out of Atlanta Eleanor Dixon, veteran trial lawyer, defense attorney Peter Odom out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, and trial lawyer Paul Batista (ph) and author of "Death`s Witness" joining us from New York.

Eleanor, explain why it is so significant that in the Florida jurisdiction, this case is going a grand jury. It tells me what charge they are seeking.

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Exactly. And a capital charge would be one in which the state could seek the death penalty, such as murder, armed robbery in some situations, rape. Those type of cases are capital cases.

GRACE: Now, in the jurisdiction of Florida, apparently, indictments can be handed down, charges can be handed down by what is called an "information," which means the prosecutor him or herself simply writes out the charges and that goes to a jury.

Peter Odom, for murder, murder one in Florida, you have to go to a grand jury. That tells me that`s a charge they`re going seek against Casey Anthony.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. And that tells us that the prosecutors must have something that we don`t know about yet because we don`t know anything about a body. We don`t know anything about a cause and manner of death. We don`t know anything about a crime scene. We don`t know anything about admissions of guilt or a weapon. Unless they have...

GRACE: Well, you know...

ODOM: ... those elements, they`re going to have a hard time.

GRACE: ... before you became a defense attorney, it`s my understanding, Peter Odom, that you were a veteran prosecutor. Have you never heard of prosecuting a case without a body? You want me to give a gold star, an A-plus to a killer that manages to conceal the body? They should just walk scot-free?

ODOM: You can get a prosecution without a body. Sometimes you can get a prosecution without a cause and manner of death. Sometimes you can get a prosecution without a crime scene. But without all these elements -- with all of these elements missing, Nancy, they have a very tough row to hoe, unless there`s something we just don`t know about.

GRACE: Well, hold on just a moment. To Leonard Padilla joining us out of Sacramento, California, the bounty hunter who first posted a half a million dollar bail on Anthony before coming off that bond. There`s quite a significant amount of circumstantial evidence such as what, Leonard Padilla?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, you`ve got the air samples in the trunk of the car. You`ve got Caylee`s DNA. Don`t be confused because people say, Well, you know, they`ve just got hair strands, but they got hair strands with the death band on it. They`ve got the DNA of Caylee in the trunk of that car.

And they`ve also got even statements by Casey herself stating about the odor in the car, except that she wants to blame it on squirrels. They`ve also got the pings which show exactly where she was from the 16th through the 30th. And they will find the body before they go to trial on the case itself. Maybe not before the grand jury, but before they go to the trial, they`ll find the body.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, what in your mind is the strongest evidence? Tonight, the defense team is pooh-poohing any evidence by the state. What do you think?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, Nancy, I think the whole timeline that they have right now -- and Leonard has helped to fill that in as we go along. I think that, along with all the evidence they have that was in the trunk, and the chloroform -- and there`s a lot that they`re not telling us. I guarantee you, Nancy, as a former investigator, there is evidence they are not showing us right now, and that is going come into play in the grand jury, and that is what`s going on nail her to the cross.

GRACE: Just hours ago, the defense team publicly mocks the grand jury system, saying they don`t believe in it. Well, surprise! It`s been around since the 12th century. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think it`s in her advantage to testify in a proceeding where it`s a one-sided affair, where only the prosecutor`s allowed, it`s a secret closed-door session where they present one side of the story. And it`s not something that I will expose my client or any other client that I have in the future to, to testify to, because I don`t believe in the grand jury proceeding.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is a tot mom`s defense the "Today" show just hours ago. And of course, although she`s not appearing before the grand jury, Casey Anthony will appear tomorrow morning to beg a judge to let her off house arrest. You are seeing shots of her on a shopping spree after her daughter goes missing.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tim Miller is going go ahead and review that search area where we were last time, look at the ground conditions, see if the water has receded and if the vegetation is going to allow us to get in and search.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the 27th, after she goes back to Amscot and picks up her car, goes to the house, comes to this area, immediately thereafter, she calls Amy and she says, I got rid of the smell in the car, I scraped off the squirrels. You go to the transcripts and you`ll read that, and it`s minutes after she leaves that area and goes back up north to Amscot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Joining us tonight, the head of Texas Equusearch, Tim Miller, Equusearch back in Florida, set to resume the search for little Caylee. Tim, thank you for being with us. Tim, if the waters have subsided sufficiently, where are you going to search first and why?

TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Well, Nancy, at very best, we completed maybe 50 percent of what we set out to do before. And I`m the one that actually called that search. I was just really worried that...

GRACE: Where are you going search first and why?

MILLER: We`re going to be in the areas where there were cell phone activities, and that`s not a secret to anybody, Nancy.

GRACE: So around the Orlando International Airport or somewhere else?

MILLER: Around the airport. And there`s three cell towers that we`ve got a tremendous amount of interest in, so this is where we`re going to be.

GRACE: Tim, what resources do you plan to use, horses, by foot? What are you going do?

MILLER: You know, Nancy, the last day on the search, we had 1,186 volunteers out there, plus all the resources in the world, but conditions weren`t right. I predict there will be over 2,000 searchers. Nobody`s lost interest in this. In fact, people are more focused now. They want little Caylee found. There`s not one chance in this world Caylee`s alive. We`ll bring in every resource that we need...

GRACE: Tim...

MILLER: Caylee...

GRACE: Tim...

MILLER: ... will be found, honey.

GRACE: Tim, the pressure is on you. You know that because you`re the only one stepping up at this point, rounding up volunteers. Tim Miller is not only the head of Equusearch, he is also a crime victim. His daughter was murdered and her body discarded many, many years ago. And you know, Tim, that a case with a body is going to be much stronger than a case without a body.

MILLER: Nancy, you know what? Today in Houston, Texas -- a little over a year ago, we did a search for Tanisha Stewart (ph). We did not find that body. Today, Timothy Shepherd (ph) was convicted of murder. Yes, we want that body, but if that body`s not found, I trust this Orange County sheriff`s department. They are not going in front of the grand jury to put on a show, I will guarantee you that.

GRACE: I think you`re right, Tim Miller. I want to go -- oh, and while I`ve got Tim Miller -- Tim Miller rounds up volunteers. He works for free. Any donation or volunteer to help find this 3-year-old girl or her remains is needed so desperately. You can see the Web site, TXEQ.org, to find out more. This could make or break the state`s case.

Back to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. Mike, he`s going to where the pings were around the cell tower. What were the significant dates? And what do you make of it?

BROOKS: Well, Nancy, you`ve got a number of significant dates. I mean, the whole timeline, you know, that we`ve talked about -- besides Tim -- and my hat`s off to Tim, by the way. I wish I`d him on a number of cases I`ve worked. But I can tell you, along with Tim, the custodian of records of AT&T is going to come in to that grand jury, and they`re going lay out the whole timeline of where -- the who, what, when, where, why and how of where she was from the time she said that Caylee went missing on June 9 all of the way to the time that she was arrested on July 16.

GRACE: Let`s go over those dates and times. Mark Williams with WNDB, Texas Equusearch is going back to search for little Caylee or her remains. They are going near the Orlando International Airport. It`s starting now. This could make or break the state`s case. Tell me about the cell phone activity by Casey Anthony near the airport. When was it?

WILLIAMS: It was on the day of June 16 and 17. She made a flurry of phone calls to both her mother, Cindy Anthony, and to her father, George Anthony. They did not pick up the phone. She also called her boyfriend at the time, Tony Rosaro -- Lazzaro (ph). And there was just kind of a dead end. And those flurry of phone calls, that`s where investigators believe that little Casey -- or little Caylee was killed just due to the fact that you had the phone calls. And the last time George Anthony saw his granddaughter alive was, like, on that Monday afternoon, the -- around noontime Monday on the 16th.

GRACE: Well, you know, Tim, I want to ask you another issue about motive. The state doesn`t have to prove motive, isn`t that correct, Paul Batista?

PAUL BATISTA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s absolutely correct, Nancy. But they have to prove the case with more than fumes in a trunk and pings from a cell phone.

GRACE: Well put. But I take it the answer to my question is no, the state doesn`t have to prove motive.

But back to you, Mark Williams. A new motive allegedly has been revealed regarding Puerto Rico. And a lot of this is coming from mom Casey Anthony`s own text messages. Explain.

WILLIAMS: Well, those text messages started in early May. They were -- she and her friends were planning to go to Puerto Rico on a vacation early in July, around July 4 or so, and there was a flurry of text messages there. She talked about she needing emergency money. And she says, I can blow through that money real quick. So she was -- she was not a thrifty person and...

GRACE: Here you see her on text messages planning the Puerto Rican vacation.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

GRACE: Keep going, Mark.

WILLIAMS: Well, the deal is she was planning it, along with Amy Huizenga and a couple of other folks, her circle of friends. But you know, here`s the thing. They went to Puerto Rico. She never went to Puerto Rico. And so there`s also been a published report that says since she didn`t go to Puerto Rico, she was hamstrung by little Caylee, and that`s when the dirty deed happened.

GRACE: And what`s so interesting -- to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG -- is while her friends go on to Puerto Rico, she continues texting them. This is after the time little Caylee goes missing.

D`ONOFRIO: That`s right. She is text messaging a lot of her friends when Caylee goes missing. But I can tell you those cell phone pings are really disturbing. If you look on that Monday, detectives -- I believe they believe that something happened to that child that Monday. She goes to a Blockbuster, then she goes and sleeps over at her boyfriend`s house that night. And they believe by the time she went to that Blockbuster that that child was likely dead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MILLER: I held onto that little glimmer of hope that she was still alive out there, but I`ve lost all that hope. And you know what? We need to find her. And we`re not going to quit until Caylee`s found.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Surveillance video of tot mom Casey Anthony. It`s not so much what she bought that is at issue tonight, as this case apparently heads to a grand jury on homicide charges. It`s the timing. Timing is crucial, these purchases made in the days and weeks following the alleged kidnapping by a nanny of her little girl. A grand jury will be allowed to see this video to assess for themselves her demeanor.

Straight back out to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG. Tell me again your assessment regarding where Equusearch is searching, the cell pings, and the theory that little Caylee was dead before mom Casey goes to Blockbuster.

D`ONOFRIO: Well, this is the idea of the cell phone pings. We have an investigative reporter here, Tony Pipitone. He`s been looking into all of the records, and he`s done some really interesting work. And what it shows is that on June 15 -- that`s when the grandparents last see Caylee -- June 16 is a Monday. And the idea is that something might have happened to the child that Monday.

And then by the time she goes to a Blockbuster in the evening at around 9:00 o`clock, I believe Tony said, and then after that, she goes to Tony Lazzaro`s house and sleeps over that night -- that by that time, the child -- something happened to the child that day because the next day, she makes this flurry of cell phone calls. And the day after that, she borrows that shovel. And it was likely that she was either picking up the child, possibly the dead body.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The information that we`ve got back from the FBI lab indicating that -- you know, that she was in the trunk of that car or that she`s dead certainly is information we take very seriously.

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: I know what I know. Caylee is not dead. Their (INAUDIBLE) don`t mean anything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We do have returns that indicate human decomposition was present and located in the defendant`s vehicle. We had higher hopes of finding her alive and that hope has somewhat diminished.

GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: The person who is in the back of my granddaughter`s car is not my granddaughter..

C. ANTHONY: We continue to look for Caylee. She is not dead.

TIM MILLER, HEAD OF EQUUSEARCH, RESUMING SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: It is never too late to do a continuous search. I truly believe that Caylee is out there. I would love to believe that she`s still alive, but I truly from my heart don`t believe that.

C. ANTHONY: We need to start looking for a little girl that`s walking and breathing that someone actually has her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have scientific evidence back from the lab, the FBI, and we have evidence that we have not yet made public that leads our investigators to believe that Caylee is deceased.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: And today the defense team publicly announces it`s the media`s fault that mom Casey Anthony has not been searching for her daughter. She plans to go to a judge tomorrow morning asking to be relieved of house arrest.

We are taking your calls, but first, take a listen to what the defense had to say just this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: The reason for this motion is to allow her to contribute to the situation, and that includes her defense as well as the search for Caylee. So I don`t -- I don`t see -- you know, I know the media`s made quite a bit of this, but one should be able to communicate with their lawyer and if she`s accused of taking the police to a certain location I`d like to be able to go to that location with her to verify certain facts and certain -- certain things that surround the situation.

I don`t believe they`re trying this in the court of public opinion. I think it`s an obvious fact where they have systematically leaked one bit of bad information after another and all of them are just simply in the efforts to be able to try a case where they don`t have any evidence or a body so, therefore, they can already have tainted the jury pool which I think they`ve done a fair job in doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, correct me if I`m wrong, but that`s not the prosecutor on "The Today Show" this morning tainting the jury pool. That`s the defense attorney, Jose Baez, this morning on "Today."

To Eleanor Dixon, talking about tainting the jury pool, I haven`t seen the prosecutors comment. Why?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Because prosecutors cannot ethically talk about the investigation or those details of the case. The only thing they can ethically say is after an indictment is what the indictment is for.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAEZ: I don`t think it`s in her advantage to testify in a proceeding where it`s a one-sided affair where the only the prosecutor`s allowed. It`s a secret, closed door session where they present one side of the story and it`s not something that I will expose my client or any other client that I have in the future to testify to because I don`t believe in the grand jury proceeding.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Don`t believe in the grand jury proceeding. That`s tot mom defense on NBC "Today Show."

To Peter Odom and Paul Batista -- Peter Odom, I am going to try to let him down easy. The grand jury system has been in effect since the 12th century.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It has. And, of course, the grand jury system, though, does not favor the defense. It`s a one-sided affair. Mr. Baez.

GRACE: Well, it`s a charging mechanism.

ODOM: Right.

GRACE: Why should it? Just like why should the state be part of the defense investigation? That`s improper. So why is he bellyaching about the grand jury system?

ODOM: Well, I really can`t speak for Mr. Baez. I disagree with him. I think the grand jury has its function, but, certainly, it is very one-sided and I would advise my client, exactly as he has, don`t testify in front of the grand jury, it`s a losing proposition.

GRACE: To Paul Batista -- Paul, the Florida grand jury only hears capital cases. That tells me the state is not going for a voluntary or involuntary manslaughter charge. They are going for murder one.

If you were the defense in this case what would you be doing right now?

PAUL BATISTA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "DEATH`S WITNESS": Well, they certainly are going right for the throat. And I have to say I`d be doing exactly the same thing that Jose Baez is doing. The client doesn`t.

GRACE: You`d say I don`t believe in the grand jury system?

BATISTA: I certainly wouldn`t say that. The grand jury systems is.

GRACE: Well, then, you wouldn`t be doing exactly what he`s doing.

BATISTA: Not exactly the same thing, but in terms of what he`s doing, Nancy -- Casey has nothing to gain. She has rights and she has nothing to gain from appearing in front of the grand jury.

His description of what the grand jury does in terms of the one-sidedness, I`m sorry to say, Nancy, is entirely accurate. He`s taking the right course.

GRACE: Well, I don`t know why you`re all sorry to say it. The grand jury is a charging mechanism. There`s nothing wrong with it. That`s the way our constitution is set up.

The defense is the one that is protected by the constitution, not the prosecution. The state doesn`t have a bill of rights protecting it. Prosecutors don`t have that. The defendant does.

To Bethany Marshall, psycho analyst and author of "Dealbreakers." Bethany, I want you to take a look at this video of mom, Casey Anthony, on a shopping spree buying lingerie, nighties, bras, a case of beer, clothing sportswear, designer sunglasses, all during the time after her little girl goes missing.

Now this does not prove a murder, but what does it say to you, Dr. Bethany?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, it does speak to motive and what I think is that Casey was probably horribly resentful that Cindy and George were spending their excess resources towards little Caylee, horribly envious, and what do we do when we`re envious?

We want to destroy the object of our envy. That would be a motive for not handling the little girl over to the grandparents simply destroying her and not having her around.

Now this -- getting rid of the little girl initiates a crime spree. Amy Huizinga goes to Puerto Rico, right? Or on holiday. Casey wants to go, can`t go, keeps texting. What does she do? She takes Amy`s checkbook. She takes what`s not hers.

She`s a thief and the spending spree and the crime spree is a celebration of the fact that the little girl is out of the way. Now she can indulge in her own lifestyle and she can live without the little girl, she can do whatever she wants to do.

But it`s not just a homicide. It`s the -- or a possible homicide, it is the beginning of a crime spree.

GRACE: To Dr. Michael Bell, Palm Beach County chief medical examiner -- Dr. Bell, if chloroform were used on little Caylee, would there be evidence of that if her remains are discovered?

DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH CO. CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: There may well be. You know, it would require specialized testing, but they may be able to detect it if it`s in high enough concentrations.

GRACE: What kind of testing?

BELL: Well, likely because the body will be decomposed, they`ll have to use probably brain matter or muscle rather than blood.

GRACE: You know, it`s hard to reconcile what you`re saying with these shots of little Caylee.

Out to the lines, Gloria in Florida. Hi, Gloria.

GLORIA, FLORIDA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. You`re the best. Thank you for doing what you do.

GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?

GLORIA: Casey has a pattern of weaving a shred of truth into her lies, and I was wondering if Blanchard Park was searched where Casey said she last saw Caylee with so-called Zenaida and her sister in her car.

GRACE: To Jessica D`Onofrio, was Jay Blanchard Park searched?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WKMG: You know, Nancy, I don`t have an answer to that. I am sure that the investigators, though, knowing them, I`m sure they`ve been there. They follow up on every lead they possibly can. So I can`t imagine.

GRACE: OK.

D`ONOFRIO: . why they wouldn`t have been there.

GRACE: To Kelly in Arizona, hi, Kelly.

KELLY, ARIZONA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

KELLY: Well, first I want to say you`re a true hero and thank you for everything you do. And God bless you and your babies.

GRACE: Thank you, dear. Thank you very much.

KELLY: I just want to know, has the area already been searched where the lady saw someone matching Casey`s description coming out of the woods by the airport and if so, will it be searched again?

GRACE: Tim Miller, head of Texas Equusearch, do we know about that area where a -- an eyewitness claims to have seen -- mom Casey emerging from the woods? It`s near the Orlando airport.

MILLER: I`m real familiar with that area and again, with the conditions as they were.

GRACE: No.

MILLER: . when. Caylee disappeared the answer is completely. Blanchard Park has not been completely -- none of these areas have been and we`re just praying that conditions are there so we can go out and complete this search and bring this little girl home where she belongs.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, standing by at the Anthony home, it`s my understanding that George and Cindy Anthony and Lee Anthony set to appear before that grand jury to testify about what?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, George Anthony will be appearing about the smell in the car and if you recall there were the issue with the gas cans. George Anthony was trying to get the gas cans from the trunk of Casey`s car and she quickly went to the trunk of the car, was able to on close it before George Anthony could actually see into the trunk.

Lee Anthony, on the other hand, he -- it`s for what he hasn`t done. It`s because he has not given DNA evidence to officers without them asking for it. Also, he refused to take a polygraph test.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: I said where`s Caylee? What`s going on? Oh she`s staying with Zany. And I said, we haven`t seen the girl in over a week, you know. How`s everything? We haven`t talked to her. It sure would be nice to hear her little voice. Dad, I don`t have time for it. I have 10 minutes, I have to get back to work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: These checks came from her friend`s car, Amy Huizinga. Amy went on vacation to Puerto Rico, allowing Casey to use the car. And she allegedly took some checks. She`s passing this bad paper.

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: If you look at her -- her best friend, Amy Huizinga. Now keep in mind, on July 15th, this is the day that Amy and her mom Cindy came over to her apartment where she was with Tony Lazzaro and confronted her.

That day in Amy Huizinga`s checking account the balance was $49.99. On her last statement, her best friend now on the 6/20, her balance was 2,125.47.

Great best friend.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Straight out to a special guest joining us, Jessica D`Onofrio from WKMG. Jessica, 754 pings on her cell phone have been picked up by authorities. What is significant about just 3 percent of them?

D`ONOFRIO: Well, the thing that is so interesting about all that work that was done by one of our investigative reporters here is that the child is last seen on June 15th and on June 16th, it looks by these phone calls by where they were hitting cell phone towers, these pings were hitting cell phone towers, and when these calls were made that on the 16th is the date that something specifically happened to this child.

Then by the end of the evening around 9:00 some time, she goes to Blockbuster and she goes and sleeps over at her boyfriend`s house. You never see this child again. The next day you`ve got a flurry of cell phone calls and the day after that, she borrows a shovel and goes in the backyard, backs her car up and, you know, the theory is that she takes the child out of the backyard, puts it in the car and leaves.

GRACE: 754 times, her cell phone communicated from a cell tower, bouncing off 20 different cell towers.

Now, Mike Brooks, 97 percent of those 754 calls were from the area of her home, her parents` home, Fusion Nightclub.

BROOKS: Right.

GRACE: A friend`s house or boyfriend. The 3 percent that have captured the police attention are from where?

BROOKS: They`re from around that area we were talking about, Nancy. I mean we talked about this earlier. We had heard that there were a number of cell towers around her house between her house, between Tony Lazzaro`s house and this area around Orlando International Airport.

That is the area that they`ve been concentrating on.

GRACE: It is southwest of the family home.

BROOKS: Exactly.

GRACE: . at Lee Vista Boulevard and it is near where detectives are sending Equusearch volunteers. Then notably, the cell phone goes silent between 5:23 and 8:23 June 17, no text messages, no calls and no calls out.

And to you, Eleanor Dixon, this is a woman that lived on text messages. She`s up until 2:00, up at 5 a.m. texting various men, friends, you name it, and for those three hours, those hours in question, and at the location, near the airport, everything goes radio silent.

Behavioral evidence, Eleanor. What does it mean?

DIXON: Exactly, Nancy, it means she`s doing something and certainly, as a prosecutor in that case, I would argue that`s when she`s getting rid of the body in this case.

GRACE: And thank you to Joe in Florida who has called in, he served six months on a Dade County grand jury.

Eleanor, a grand jury, unlike a petite jury of 12, which hears your case ultimately, must only find a probable cause whether to indict, not that the case is proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

DIXON: You`re exactly right, Nancy, and the grand jurors just don`t indict every case that comes down the pike. I`ve gotten plenty of no bills, in other words, we don`t go for it with the grand jury.

GRACE: Eleanor, I never got a no bill. When you said you got plenty of no bills, what do you mean by that?

DIXON: Well, I guess what I mean, Nancy, is not every one of my cases that I presented to the grand jury have gone forward. In other words.

GRACE: For an indictment.

DIXON: Right. For an indictment. In other words, grand jury is thoughtful, they said we don`t think there`s enough evidence and that`s it.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Sandy in Florida. Hi, Sandy.

SANDY, FLORIDA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

SANDY: When Casey left the house after the fight with her mom and took Caylee, where did she go that night?

GRACE: Interesting, Mark Williams, WMDB, where do you believe she went that evening?

WILLIAMS: Well, apparently, she went out on the road and more than likely stayed with one of her boyfriends that night. That`s the information that we`ve received and from that point on, who knows?

GRACE: To Vicki in Ohio, hi, Vicki.

VICKI, OHIO RESIDENT: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear.

VICKI: Well, I just have a question. I was wondering if they never find Casey`s body -- or Caylee`s body, would Casey, A, be able to be indicted and B, would it be a situation like double jeopardy if they were to find her not guilty and then, Lord willing, found the little girl`s body?

GRACE: Vicki in Ohio, yes, she can be indicted without a body. It`s happened many, many times. In fact, we`ll put up a screen for you of high- profile cases that went forward and got convictions without a body.

Tim Miller from Equusearch just told you about one and what was the second part of your question, Vicki?

DIXON: Double jeopardy.

GRACE: Oh, yes. Double jeopardy. If she`s tried -- thanks, Eleanor. If she`s tried without a body, acquitted and then the body is discovered. No, she cannot be retried.

To Marie in New York, hi, Marie.

MARIE, NEW YORK RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

MARIE: I love watching your children. I think they`re great.

GRACE: Thank you.

MARIE: A question. Why don`t they bring in a bunch of psychics and also have they done all her boyfriend`s lie detecting for them to see if any of them were lying?

GRACE: To Mark Williams, psychics have been brought in, even search. What can you tell me about lie detector tests on boyfriends?

WILLIAMS: Well, lie detector tests on boyfriends, obviously, have been to her ex-beaus, so to speak, and basically they were given to them by the sheriff`s office just to clear up some -- any time line questions, to make sure they were telling the truth.

And from what we understand, everybody`s telling the truth because even though they can`t use these in a courtroom, they can certainly put a time line together to show where Casey was on a particular given day in a particular given hour, Nancy.

GRACE: Right. To Peter Odom and Paul Batista -- Peter Odom, once an indictment is handed down, the state may be forced forward with a speedy trial demand. Please explain.

ODOM: Well, once an indictment is handed down, the clock begins ticking and it varies from state to state but they could be forced to trial within a very short period of time.

GRACE: Forced by who, Paul Batista?

BATISTA: Forced by the defendant, Nancy. She`s entitled to a fair and speedy trial and it may well be that she`ll ask for it here.

GRACE: And Paul and Peter, I could see the defense doing this because it would allow the state no more time to prepare their case. Right, Eleanor?

DIXON: That would be right but I bet the state has more they haven`t told the public about.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAEZ: There`s obviously one glowing factor and that is that there is zero evidence in these document that Casey harmed Caylee in any way or -- or even remotely supports that accusation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to the lawyers, Paul Batista, Peter Odom, Eleanor Dixon, and psychoanalyst, Bethany Marshall.

First to you, Bethany, does he have on blinders? Because we`ve got a cadaver dog hitting -- that only hits on human remains, hair from a dead person in the car trunk. The mom lying through her teeth about seemingly innocuous things revolving around her daughter.

A host, an array of evidence.

MARSHALL: Well, at first I thought he drank the Casey Anthony Kool-Aid but actually it`s the best thing he can do is discredit the grand jury. He`s really grasping for straws at this point.

GRACE: Eleanor, shouldn`t he just remain silent? Shouldn`t he take the fifth, as well?

DIXON: Well, he probably should, Nancy, but again, he`s tainting the potential jury pool as well and it`s just typical defense blah blah blah.

GRACE: And we can expect the same at trial, right, Peter?

ODOM: Well, his best defense here, Nancy, is the most common defense, the most reliable defense, reasonable doubt. You probably should just stay silent.

GRACE: Paul?

BATISTA: Well, he`s got a right to defend his client, Nancy, and that`s precisely what the man is doing. He`s got a right to articulate these things.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, what do you expect to happen next week?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: I believe there`s going to be an indictment come down for murder and I don`t -- I don`t see Jose Baez changing his tactics. If he doesn`t do something, if Casey doesn`t come up with a body between now and then, there`s definitely going to be an indictment. And shortly thereafter Tim is going to find the body.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Navy Airman Apprentice Adrian Campos, 22, El Paso, Texas. Remembered as the life of the party. Devoted to others. Loved traveling, adventure. Dreamed of starting his own car repair shop.

Leaves behind family grieving, brother Carlos, sister Vanessa, widow Sylvia, baby girl Gabby.

Adrian Campos, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. As much as the world pauses tonight for Yom Kippur, we wish you blessings on this special evening.

I`ll see you tomorrow night 8 o`clock sharp -- sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/09/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

October 10, 2008:



Huddled at bench
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 12:38:09 PM
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All the attorneys are huddled at the bench. It's unclear what they are talking about. The courtroom remains quiet. It's filled with mostly media. Those with computers are sitting in the balcony.

The judge just announced, "That's a wrap."


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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Zenaida factor
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 12:33:42 PM
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Defense - Wants all the info about Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez

State - Drane-Burdick says he wants the state to do his investigation him. She suggest he depose the investigators.

Defense - A big part of the case is the lack of investigation into finding Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez.  He wants to know who the cops talked to and what type of investigation they did.

Judge - The state must turn over what prosecutors have but Baez may need to do his own leg work to see if anything else exists. The state appears to have met its obligation.





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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Judge did not rule on DNA issue
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 12:25:58 PM
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Defense - Wants samples preserved so defense can do its own DNA testing. If there isn't enough to preserve, the defense's expert should be allowed to be present for the testing.

Judge -- He will take this issue under advisement.

Note: Refresh this blog often for the latest updates.


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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Defense wants DNA samples preserved
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 12:21:01 PM
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Defense is questioning an expert via a phone. It's unclear what he's an expert in because the state wanted to skip over listing his credentials. The prosecutor has another trial to attend at 12:30 p.m.

The doctor is worried the DNA samples will be destroyed when the state is testing and there will be nothing left for a defense expert to inspect.

State questions the expert. Ashton wants to know if he's ever gone to a site to watch the testing.

The expert replies that it wasn't needed after he inspected the procedures on how samples were tested. He also knew the lab.

Defense - Asked the expert if he is familiar with Florida crime labs in Orlando. The expert replied that he is not.

State - Asked if the issue is more about labs he is not familiar with the labs. The experts said that is correct.

Judge - Strickland said he's trying to figure out what exactly the state wants.

Note: Refresh this blog often for the latest updates.


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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Calling a witness on the phone
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 12:04:55 PM
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Everyone is huddled around a speaker phone because the defense is calling a witness on the phone.

Note: Refresh this blog often for the latest updates.


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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Polygraph issue
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 12:02:14 PM
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State -- Drane-Burdick says polygraphs are not allowed in court so it's not discoverable. But the state will disclose the statements.

Defense - It would be good to get statements but want more info on who is giving the polygraph.

Judge -- The state must turn over any statements prosecutors have from people who gave polygraphs -- including FDLE and Orange County Sheriff's Office. The motion is granted.

Note: Refresh this blog often for the latest updates.


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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Defense wants flight manifest
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 11:54:08 AM
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Judge - The state has turned over what it has about the manifest. It's a moot point.

Note: Refresh this blog often for the latest updates.


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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Defense wants DCF records
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 11:52:01 AM
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Judge decides to come back at another time to the defense's request to DCF records. He wants to hear from DCF.

Note: Refresh this blog often for the latest updates.


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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Defense wants tip information
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 11:48:44 AM
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Drane-Burdick - She says the state can turn over tips that have already been investigated. However, tips that may be part of the investigation should not be turned over because the defense may interfere.

Judge - He grants the motion but adds that any investigation into tips must be completed.

Note: Refresh this blog often for the latest updates.


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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Defense gets access to more evidence
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 11:41:59 AM
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Defense wants access to reports, logs and other documents for evidence dealing with chloroform, DNA, cadaver dogs and other evidence.

Ashton - None of these things are not going to be used in neglect case. The request for information about cadaver dogs can be received through public records request from the sheriff's office. That has not been done.

Judge -- He denies paragraph 5 - request about cadaver dogs.

But the inspections dealing with air samples analyzed at the body farm may be limited to reports or statements of experts regarding that.

Ashton says there are reports from the body farm.

Judge grants the motion. The state must present reports, logs and statements dealing with DNA, air samples, hair strands and chloroform found in trunk within the next 10 days.

Note: Refresh this blog often for the latest updates.


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Filed under: Caylee Anthony More talk about access to car
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 11:33:22 AM
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Ashton - The motion is filed not because of the neglect case but charges that may come in the future. Legally, he doesn't have a right to inspect the car at this time. In the future, he might.

But judge grants the defense motion. The state must coordinate with defense to figure out a time to inspect the car.

Note: Refresh this blog often for the latest updates.


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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Next motion - access to the car
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 11:28:11 AM
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This is one about Baez's request to inspect evidence, such as the car. He wants an expert to have access to  Casey's car.

Jeff Ashton - assistant state attorney - replies that the car is not listed a piece of evidence.

The judge asked if the state plans to use the air samples - the ones that detected a decomposing body in the vehicle. Prosecutor said not in the neglect case.

Baez disagreed, pointing out Ashton was not present for the three-hour bond hearing. He says defense should be allowed to inspect the car. The state may want to restrict Casey's search for the truth.

Note: Refresh this blog often for the latest updates.


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Filed under: Caylee Anthony State and county opposes request
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 11:17:11 AM
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The county opposes the motion. It's too vague. It's basically a request to be removed from home confinement, says county assistant attorney Tamara Gappen.

Prosecutor says it appears that Baez is asking the court to trust him and the bondsman that she will abide by the home confinement. Drane-Burdick points out that Casey hasn't even asked to go anywhere other than her attorney's office. He appears he wants to conduct this in secret and the state opposes it.

Note: Refresh this blog often for the latest updates.


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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Points of interest?
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 11:16:18 AM
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Baez points out that the Casey case is an unusual case. Hughes agreed.

Baez then tells the judge that this case involves the case of a missing child. He would like a few hours to travel with her to certain places - they could range from places she has been in the last few months and to places she allegedly took cops. He wants to go to other places of interest that are relevant to the case.

The issue may be whether she is a flight risk, Baez says. But he is requesting that she goes with Baez - an officer of the court - and be followed by the bondsman. He said this is the most stringent and narrow request that he has asked for since she was placed on home confinement. This would allow her to contribute to her defense.

Note: Refresh this blog often for the latest updates.


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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Prosecutor questions Hughes
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 11:10:18 AM
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Prosecutor Linda Drane-Burdick questions Hughes about allowing Casey to see her attorney for six hours a day. Hughes said she has never had someone ask that but she had people ask to see attorneys at restaurants and places like that.

The prosecutor asks Hughes that if Casey wanted travel to Amscot to help in her case would she be allowed? Hughes says she would want more details as to why, but she can request that.

And Casey can ask the court for permission if Hughes refused to allow her to go somewhere, Drane-Burdick asked. Hughes replied that Casey could do that.

Note: Refresh this blog often for the latest updates.


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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Hughes says she needs to know Casey's whereabouts at all times
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 11:02:10 AM
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Baez asked Hughes if Casey has been drug tested. She has, and the results have come back negative.

County assistant attorney is questioning Hughes. Casey has asked for an extension in her time allowed away from home. She has called and requested more time the last two days, Hughes said.

Hughes said she needs to know where Casey is throughout the day. She must know specific location and times so she can verify Casey's location.  The close monitoring is to make it hard for a defendant to flee the area or take part in criminal activity.


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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Home confinement officer for Casey Anthony takes the stand
posted by Walter Pacheco on Oct 10, 2008 11:00:29 AM
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The Orange County Jail home confinement officer Meg Hughes said Casey Anthony has always followed the rules.

Drug tests on Anthony have not tested positive for drugs, Hughes told Baez.

Anthony has started to ask for extension of time out of her home, Hughes told prosecutors. Her scheduled times usually include attorney visits in the morning as well as visits to see Hughes.


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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Home confinement officer testifies
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 10:56:43 AM
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Meg Hughes - Casey's home confinement officer - is testifying. Baez is questioning her about if she is allowed errand time. People on home confinement are allowed errand time, Hughes says.

People on home confinement are given a risk score based on their charge and criminal history. That dictates what defendants are allowed to do. Hughes has seen Casey about five times so far.


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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Bondsman testifies
posted by Sarah Lundy on Oct 10, 2008 10:53:08 AM
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A bail bondsman who posted Casey's bond is testifying that he is not opposed to her being allowed to travel freely on home confinement. He would go with her. He doesn't know what the "key points of interest" are that mentioned on the motion.


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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Bondsman says Casey Anthony is not a flight risk
posted by Walter Pacheco on Oct 10, 2008 10:52:48 AM
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A bondsman with MacDonald Bail Bonds, the company that bailed Casey Anthony out of Orange County Jail, speaks about the case.

"I don't believe she's a flight risk," bondsman Robert Haney told Baez. "Everyone knows her face."

Haney said Anthony's travel to look for her daughter will be local and not involve any flights.


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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Sentinel attorney speaks about keeping Casey Anthony's schedule public
posted by Walter Pacheco on Oct 10, 2008 10:47:01 AM
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There should not be a whole lot of travel because she is on home confinement, a county official said who is in charge of the home confinement order.

Attorney Rachel Fugate of the Orlando Sentinel said docs are public records and don't think defense has given enough evidence to seal records.

"Not effective in protecting her safety," Fugate said of keeping records private.


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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Casey Anthony's attorney speaks about safety issues
posted by Walter Pacheco on Oct 10, 2008 10:43:44 AM
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"Biggest issue we have with this is security," Anthony's attorney, Jose Baez, said about not disclosing his client's movements made public on her home confinement schedule.

"Her comings and goings are made public...and could create an imminent security problem," Baez said.

Prosecutors said Baez needs to come up with an exception to the public records law.


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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Casey Anthony is a no show - so far
posted by Walter Pacheco on Oct 10, 2008 10:20:33 AM
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Casey Anthony's attorney, Jose Baez, arrived without his client.

Sheriff's officials, FBI agents and the prosecutors have entered the courtroom, while more than 20 reporters, photographers and other media representatives wait outside the locked doors.


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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Sheriff's officials make appearance at State Attorney's Office this morning
posted by Walter Pacheco on Oct 10, 2008 10:09:18 AM
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Orange County Sheriff's Office officials, including Sgt. John Allen, the lead investigator in the case of missing 3-year-old Caylee Marie Anthony; and spokesmen Capt. Angelo Nieves and Deputy Carlos Padilla, arrived this morning at the Orange Osceola State Attorney's Office.

The three officials have been working the case since Casey Anthony reported her daughter missing.


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Filed under: Caylee Anthony Casey Anthony in court today
posted by Roger Simmons on Oct 10, 2008 10:02:56 AM
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Casey Anthony is back in court today as a judge hears nearly a dozen legal requests in the case of the mother and her missing daugther, Caylee.

We will be live blogging the hearing (which should start around 10:30 a.m.) here on the Orlando Crime Blog. We will also have a live video stream, if you would like to watch the hearing: Click here for the video stream.

And if you want to get caught up on the case, click here for our gallery of videos, photos, documents and a timeline about the case. There is a lot of ground to cover: Caylee was first reported missing on July 15.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_local_orlandocrime/caylee_anthony/index.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Casey Anthony Wins One in Court

Aired October 10, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl named Caylee, little Caylee missing for 16 long weeks.
Tonight, bombshell. The latest shocker, Casey`s defense team racks up big victories in court, and I mean big victories, over the furious objections of prosecutors. In the last hours, a judge grants of string of motions on behalf of Casey Anthony`s defense. But mom Casey is a no-show. That`s right, she does not show up in court. As of tonight, the state has 10 days to hand over forensic evidence, including hair, chloroform and air samples all connected to Casey Anthony`s car trunk. The defense also gets access to mom Casey`s car, the computer searches, tips on Caylee, and even polygraphs.

The judge does say no to cadaver dog evidence, but three -- count them, three -- crucial motions remain on the table, including a very controversial request. Will the judge actually allow mom Casey to go on secret searches for her little girl? Meantime, we await a possible secret grand jury indictment of murder or manslaughter against Casey Anthony in just days. But tonight, the biggest question remains, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A judge has granted several motions requested by Casey Anthony`s attorney. Her defense was granted access to forensic tests, DNA samples and hair strands within 10 days. But a special request to let Anthony travel in secrecy to search for her missing daughter has been tabled until at least Monday. In another major development in this case, her father, George, will testify against her during a grand jury hearing next week.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Reportedly, he`s going to talk about the confrontation he had with Casey when she didn`t want him to go inside her trunk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: Casey, I`ve got an extra set of keys, I`ll go in the truck and get it. So her and I got in a little verbal...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She didn`t want you to go in the...

GEORGE ANTHONY: She don`t want me going in the trunk of the car. So as I`m getting ready to go out through our inner garage door and open up the big garage door, she just blows right past me. Dad, I`ll get your -- thing. She said something very crude to me that I don`t appreciate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. Right.

GEORGE ANTHONY: So as I`m walking out of the garage with her, I`m walking at a pretty decent pace and she`s almost running out to her car. She said, Dad, I`ll get it. I know where it`s at. I said, Casey, I`m capable of reaching inside your trunk of your car, unbolting that thing -- because I bolt stuff down. I crank it down. And she says, Dad, I`ll get it. As I`m walking, I just get past where the passenger rear taillight is for her car, she throws it open and turns and says, Here`s your f-ing cans.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Tonight, the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jose Baez, Casey`s attorney, asking for more freedom for Casey so she can go out and look for Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He wants her home confinement to be modified so that she can look at these -- what he calls key areas of interest in Caylee`s disappearance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the baby-sitter that lives in this apartment, OK, that`s been vacant...

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I dropped her off at that apartment, at those stairs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you had told us the truth, we wouldn`t be here at Universal Studios at a place that you`ve been fired since 2006, with you trying to explain to us, you know, you got an office and all that stuff.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If they`re charging her and alleging that she lied and took them to this location, I should be able -- it`s our position that we should be able to take her there and as, OK, where exactly did you point? Where exactly did you take them?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What he wants to do is to conduct this in secret. And we are opposed to that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your client is, as you stated, presumed innocent. Nobody would doubt that. I guess a skeptic sitting up here might think that if, in fact, your client had done this, then she might have access to a point of interest nobody else knows about and might be able to do something with potential evidence or something like that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will have no part in destruction of evidence. I will not partake in that and I will not allow my client to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Huge developments inside and outside court today. For the very latest on today`s courtroom bombshells, let`s go straight out to Jessica D`Onofrio, reporter for CNN affiliate WKMG. Jessica, what is the very latest?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Well, Jane, the judge considered 11 motions today. He tabled three of them to consider them. We might hear something probably, possibly on Monday.

Now, these were really big motions for the defense. They want to preserve forensic evidence. They don`t want the state to test it anymore so that it gets degraded. They want to be able to test it themselves.

Also, the judge took under advisement the motion to seal Casey`s home confinement schedule. Jose Baez is saying that there`s a security risk there, and he doesn`t want protesters or media following her and that this could be a matter of her safety.

Also, the judge took under advisement the motion to travel to key points of interest. Casey wants to be able to go to key points of interest in the case, show her defense attorney where she may have pointed to to detectives, to help in her own defense here.

But it was a really big day for Casey Anthony`s defense team today because the judge granted eight different big motions, as well. Now Jose Baez and his defense team will be able to test forensic evidence. They`ll have access to the state`s results that they`ve gotten back from air samples from the University of Tennessee body farm. They`ll also get flight manifests from the time when a woman said she saw Caylee at OIA, at Orlando International Airport, and that there was a possible Caylee sighting, and that she is actually alive.

Also, he`ll get to inspect digital evidence, anything on a hard drive that was confiscated from the Anthony home. He`ll also get access to tips, tips that have come into the Orange County sheriff`s office pointing to the idea that Caylee may be alive somewhere. So he`s also -- and this is a big thing, too. He`s also going to be able to review polygraph tests that detectives have done thus far. So he`s going to have a lot of access to a lot of new information to help defend Casey Anthony.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jessica D`Onofrio, that is such a shocker -- Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, all for the defense. And who`s not there to take it all in, the one person who is at the center of this case, Casey Anthony. She was a no-show in court.

Let`s go straight out to Natisha Lance, Nancy Grace producer, who was in court today. Describe the mood. I understand it was a packed courtroom. There was a lot of tension, a lot of expectation to see Casey Anthony walk in, and then voila, even though she got approval, she didn`t show up. Why?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, the defense is saying that Casey Anthony actually did not need to be in court today. And actually, I spoke to a spokesperson for the Baez lawfirm who said that they never intended for Casey to attend today`s hearing. Jose Baez gave some remarks afterwards, and he said that Casey has full faith in him, as well as the defense team, and that there was no reason for her to be there, but she was elated with the outcome of what happened today in court (INAUDIBLE)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Natisha, they`re saying that after the fact, but she went and asked her case supervisor, Can I have permission to go to court? So why would she ask for permission and then they turn around and say, Well, no, she didn`t have to be there and she didn`t really plan on being there?

LANCE: Well, that`s a big mystery, Jane, that no one seems to be answering at this point. But one of the things that I think we could probably safely assume is that there`s a security risk, which Jose Baez raised today with one of his motions, that they are afraid for Casey`s safety and afraid that somebody could possibly do something to her because there have been protesters. Some of those protesters have become violent in the past, and that could have been a pretty bad spectacle, if there were some of those protesters out at the courthouse today.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, originally helped her spring from jail and has become skeptical since, what do you make of it? You`ve been analyzing Casey now. Why would she ask her supervisor to go and have permission to go to court, and this is a huge day, she won a string of victories in court, but then she says, I`m not going?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, let me see if I can put this in perspective. What the eight victories that she got are called Pyrrhic victories, OK? What she did was get a 10-day limit, which -- when the grand jury comes in with the indictment, and I`m sure they will on Tuesday or Wednesday, it`s still within the 10 days that they had to release that information under discovery rules, anyhow.

As far as the safety issue, I can tell you this. I raised that the day after the results from Tennessee came in and the DNA from the FBI lab came in. I raised that as a strong issue with Jose Baez. And I says, We have a safety issue with your client. We have to do something.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Did you buy the safety issue? Yes or no. That she (INAUDIBLE)

PADILLA: Yes, absolutely. It`s been a safety issue all along. And he didn`t take it serious then, and I don`t think...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But Leonard, she is asking for permission to go and search for her daughter, quote, unquote. That`s one of the rulings that the judge did not finalize today. He didn`t say yes or no. But they filed a motion. If she`s so scared about her safety, why is it that she`s seeking now a motion after all this time, after she partied and went shopping during a time when she could have been searching for her daughter -- now they`re petitioning the court, Let`s go and let her search for her daughter.

PADILLA: That is typical Casey/Jose Baez stuff that has -- it`s meaningless. The minute she gets rearrested on the murder charge or the manslaughter charge, when it`s brought in by the indictment, she`ll have a no bail and she won`t be able to go anywhere anyhow. And the judge tabled that.

The judge was very astute in the way he granted certain motions and the way he tabled certain motions. The ones that he granted -- discovery is going to be available next Thursday or Friday anyhow, still within the 10 days. He was very astute in what he did.

But that is typical Casey, typical Jose Baez. But the thing about it is, there is a safety issue, and I wouldn`t even want her out there searching, if I was in charge of her. That is just -- I don`t know what that`s about.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You talk about the safety issue, you`re talking about threats? Is that what you`re saying?

PADILLA: Absolutely. Yes, you`ve got massive amounts of people in Florida that would harm her, if they could get a chance. You`ve got the protesters out in front of the house that rally every now and then. That`s the kind of stuff you don`t want her exposed to, whether it`s in secret or in private. I mean, any way, shape or form, you don`t want her out there. I don`t know what they`re doing that for.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Detective Lieutenant Steven Rogers, Nutley, New Jersey Police Department. She doesn`t show up in court, and now we`re hearing it could be safety reasons. But in court today, her lawyer says, I want you, Judge, to let her leave her home confinement so she can search for her child, even though she didn`t search for her child, according to reports that we`ve received, during the crucial days and weeks when she originally went missing. What do you make of it?

DET. LT. STEVEN ROGERS, NUTLEY, NJ, POLICE DEPARTMENT: Listen, I don`t buy the safety issue. It sounds like, for goodness sakes, you`ve got to declare martial law in the state of Florida to protect this person. I deal with cases every day, high-profile cases, and this is one of the rarest things I`ve ever heard, where a defense attorney is bringing up a safety issue.

The fact of the matter is that this individual appears to have manipulated the process and did everything she could to get off.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: DNA by itself is -- when they test it, they destroy it, OK? That`s the point of our motion. What we`re asking is this. If there is DNA that they don`t have enough to give to the defense, that they should allow us the opportunity to have our experts present while they test it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now we can actually take a look at these leads and follow up on them, follow up on the ones that we know law enforcement has not followed up on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re focusing on finding Caylee. I will not come to you and tell you anything but that unless I have definitive proof.

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Are you looking for a live Caylee or a dead Caylee, Gary?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re looking for Caylee, Cindy, because we don`t know where Caylee is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Yes, yes, and yes again. That`s what the judge said repeatedly today to Casey Anthony`s lawyers, granting them most of what they asked for in terms of access to crucial evidence. Prosecutors objected furiously to no avail. That as the clock ticks down to a reported secret grand jury hearing on Tuesday that could result in murder or manslaughter charges being handed down against the missing tot`s mother. Is she prepared for the worst? That`s what her lawyer says he is trying to prepare her for.

Now, somebody who did show up in court today, our dear friend, Koby (ph), also known as Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, who is a forensic science out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice and a consultant to Casey Anthony`s defense team. Koby, hi.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY`S DEFENSE TEAM: Hi, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You actually testified over the phone. Tell us the significance of all the evidence the judge now says has to go to the defense. What -- what does it do for the defense?

KOBILINSKY: Well, we all know -- I`ve said all along this is a very challenging case for the defense. Obviously, whenever you have scientific analysis of physical evidence, it`s going to dramatically impact on jurors. So it`s important to me that whatever testing is done, whatever scientific testing of evidence is done really needs to be reliable and accurate.

And you know, one way to do that is to have redundancy in the testing. That is, to have independent testing by the defense. And this motion that I testified about involved the preservation of any forensic evidence. We`re talking about any kind of DNA evidence. The hair, for example, is one. And we`re concerned about quality and quantity.

And you know, I think the quality is less of an issue because it`s clear that, you know, crime labs have learned how to preserve evidence and not let it degrade. But if there is limited quantity, as there is in this case, we want to make sure that there`s a level playing field, that the results are accurate, and that the defense at least has a shot at doing an independent test.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Koby, why do I sense a "garbage in, garbage out" defense? It seems like that`s what always happens and is going to happen again. And we`ll have to see if I`m psychic or not.

Let`s bring in the lawyers, Joey Jackson and Midwin Charles, two noted defense attorneys. I want to ask you guys -- let`s start with Midwin. Was the judge right? I mean, yes, yes, yes, yes to access to forensic tests on air, hair and chloroform for the defense, yes to access to Casey`s vehicle, the computer, the cell phone, the information about somebody who thought they saw Caylee getting on a plane -- that turned out not to be true -- yes to polygraph, yes to any favorable information about Casey.

I mean, did they just hand over the case to the defense, Midwin?

MIDWIN CHARLES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely not. Look here, defense attorneys are entitled to this kind of information. It`s discovery. And they` entitled to exculpatory evidence, which is evidence that says -- points to the fact that perhaps someone else did it, or this person who is being charged with the crime is not the person who did it.

And it doesn`t mean that he`s handing the case over to the defense. What he`s doing is just insuring that they get a fair shake at the same evidence that the prosecutors have. Remember, this judge does not want to be reversed later on down the line, either.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Joey Jackson, you know, the prosecution was saying, Hey, she is not currently charged with murder or manslaughter. We do not have an obligation to give her all this information that goes way beyond what she`s charged with now, which is child neglect and fraud charges, and hand over essentially what could be a murder case down the road.

JOEY JACKSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I understand that. But Midwin is absolutely right on point here. The reality is, Jane, is that an indictment is imminent. And what you have to do is you have to really, if you`re the judge, determine whether or not it makes sense to turn this information over now. The defense is entitled to examine the evidence, evaluate the evidence, and having done so, to put up the best defense they possibly can.

Lastly, Jane, on the issue of the forensic examination, there`s one of two ways the defense can attack this. One way, which I don`t think will work in this case, is to simply get up there and to try to destroy all the testing that their expert did. What the defense is doing in this case is asking for an independent examination, which I think will help greatly in the defense of Caylee. (SIC)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I want to find out how the defense could afford all this -- I mean, experts and consultants...

JACKSON: Pro bono!

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... and all sorts of tests. I don`t know. It adds up. It adds up very quickly.

CHARLES: It does. It does add up.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And perhaps we`ll find out how they`re bankrolling all this.

The phone lines lighting up like a Christmas tree. Eileen in New Jersey, your question, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Hi. It`s just one question. I`m wondering, can you overdose on chloroform?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, let`s go to Koby, Lawrence Kobilinsky, the forensic scientist. Can you overdose on chloroform?

KOBILINSKY: Without a doubt. The chloroform at levels of about 10,000 parts per million is highly toxic. And in fact, the -- you know, it was normally used for anesthesia, but that`s got to be very carefully administered. And if you overdo it, it is fatal. And there`s no doubt about that. It`s a toxic chemical, and that`s why the public should not have access to it.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: Biggest mistake was not calling you guys right off the bat. I understand all of that. It`s the biggest slap in the face, and I did that to myself. But the worst is I`ve done this to my daughter by allowing her to still be with someone else.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: My mom flat out told me yesterday she will never be able to forgive me. And I even told her I`m never going to be able to forgive myself. Every day, I`ve been beating myself up about this, every single day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

CASEY ANTHONY: Not knowing where to go, what to do, running in circles, literally, because that`s all I can do at this point.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Equusearch back in Orlando, desperately looking for little Caylee Anthony now that the storms there have subsided. We`re going to go straight out to Tim Miller, head of Equusearch. How many people do you have there, Tim? Where are they? What are they doing tonight?

TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Well, you know, Jane, it`s, you know, good to be back. But you know, it`s been kind of disappointing. It looks like we brought the rain back with us. It`s rained the last few days. Conditions aren`t where we need them to be just yet. But I haven`t really been out there to look. Today I`ve been in meetings the entire day, you know, a lot longer than I anticipated...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me jump in and ask you this question about the Orlando airport area. I remember flying in there years ago, and it struck me how wooded that area is. It`s like you`re driving out of the airport, miles and miles of just woods. It`s going to impossible, I would think, to search through that. Why not get cadaver dogs and just let them loose and see what they come up with?

MILLER: Well, don`t we wish it was that easy. None of us would be out here. You know, we`ve actually located human remains several times after cadaver dogs have cleared it, so we don`t use just any one resource. I think that`s why our success is where it is. We bring in every resource we can and re-search and re-search and re-search until we know an area is cleared. And I mean, there`s a lot of woods, but let`s face it, you know, nobody is going to carry anything out a quarter mile or half mile into a wooded area where it`s very, very hard to walk. You know, normally...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s a good point. In other words -- yes?

MILLER: It`s -- it`s an area that somebody can drive out to, not be seen, possibly spend some time out there and go ahead and do a dump. And we`ve got to remember this is a very, very small child in a very, very big area. And again, I think there`s a lot of strength in numbers. And there`s a lot of resources we have. There`s a lot of people just sitting on the edge of their chair, waiting to get going back on the search.

But tomorrow, it`s not going to start. We`ve got to be a little bit better organized than we are tomorrow, so we`re not going to waste these resources. But this search is going to go on. And I still support the Anthonys and am hoping that Caylee is alive out there and -- but we`re going to do everything we can do in case she`s not to see if we can get her located.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED OPERATOR: 9-1-1, what`s your emergency?

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl. Oh, my god, my daughter finally admitted that the babysitter stole her.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I don`t like the smell in the car. I`m being straight with you guys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We didn`t like the smell either.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What filled up the garage?

G. ANTHONY: Yes, it was -- it hits you like a wave. I mean it was -- it was -- whatever it was it was very potent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) in the trunk of the car.

C. ANTHONY: There was a bag of pizza, for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots. It stunk so bad. You know how hot it`s been. That smell was terrible.

I know none of this is true.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Well, here`s.

C. ANTHONY: I mean I know that now it`s not true but at the time I believed it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure.

G. ANTHONY: The day that she was born, after they got done cleaning my granddaughter off and stuff like that, who they handed her to was my wife, and my daughter is always.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hard to (INAUDIBLE)

G. ANTHONY: Yes. There`s been some toughness right there.

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: When I asked her, why won`t you, you know, allow us to see Caylee, and she said, well, maybe I`m a spiteful (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: I`m Jane Valez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace. The road is getting narrower for tot mom Casey Anthony tonight as the clock ticks down to a secret grand jury hearing reportedly set for next Tuesday.

Could that result in a murder or a manslaughter indictment?

Published reports quote a top investigator who plans to testify before the grand jury as saying, even though there is no body, no crime scene, no murder weapon, no confession, no nothing, the totality of everything leads him to only one logical conclusion.

He believes prosecutors will be able to prove that Casey killed her daughter, Caylee, although we have to stress, she is not charged with that now. Casey`s defense attorneys in court today, fighting for evidence, and winning over vocal observations of prosecutors who don`t want to show their hand.

Let`s go out to Jessica D`Onofrio who`s been on top of the story from the very start, reporter for CNN affiliate with WKMG.

Tell us about this grand jury on Tuesday that`s reportedly going to convene. I understand it`s the last day of this grand jury. So how -- in the heck are they going to hear all of this evidence when we`re hearing witness after witness and all this evidence, the forensic evidence, the behavioral evidence, how are they going to cram that into one day and hope to come up with an indictment?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WKMG: That`s a very good question, Jane. It`s going to be -- there may be a lot of witnesses that this grand jury has to hear testimony from.

But, you know, going back to Jose Baez`s request today to have Casey Anthony be able to visit these key points of interest in the case here, her days may be numbered, because if that grand jury actually decides that she should be charged with manslaughter or murder, she`s going to go straight back to jail.

And in that case, there really isn`t a point there, and she won`t be able to travel to any of these key points of interest.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Shannon Fox, family therapist and a MomLogic.com contributor, his -- the attorney for Casey Anthony, Jose Baez, reportedly said he`s trying to prepare her for the worst.

Well, you heard -- you heard it right there. Tuesday, it could be very bad news for Casey. How do you prepare somebody for that?

SHANNON FOX, FAMILY THERAPIST, MOMLOGIC.COM CONTRIBUTOR: That`s a great question. Casey is one who hasn`t shown any emotion at all. She hasn`t shown any emotion at the disappearance of her daughter, and so now when faced with potential homicide charges, she still seems pretty -- she still seemed pretty straight-faced.

So it`s tough to break through that shell, and even prepare somebody for something that they don`t seem to be emotionally invested in at all.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, we`ve got so many phone calls coming in.

Victor from Idaho, your question, sir.

VICTOR, IDAHO RESIDENT: My question is, if this goes to trial, would Casey -- could the defense bring up an insanity plea on this?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, that`s a very interesting question.

Let`s bring in the defense attorneys, Midwin Charles, Joey Jackson. You know, so many experts have said we don`t have the whole story. The prosecution is holding back on key evidence.

Do you think -- given everything you hear now and the possibility of x very incriminating being out there that -- Midwin, I`ll start with you -- they should go for an insanity defense?

MIDWIN CHARLES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think that`s going to be real difficult here, Jane. When you have an insanity defense, you basically first have to admit that you did it, right? I mean, that hasn`t happened here yet. We don`t even know exactly what happened.

Because in an insanity defense, the person said, you know what, I did do it, but when I did it, I was insane. In other words, I didn`t know the difference between right or wrong. So I really don`t know if that will happen here.

But I will tell you this. She has not been acting like the normal mother. There has been no press conferences, there has been no crocodile tears. So there is clearly possibly a psychological issue here. And I`m sure her defense attorney is going to bring that out.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Joey Jackson, defense attorney, one investigator said in all his years, he has never come up with a person that he`s had to deal with who is as tough as this individual in terms of maintaining a poker face.

Now that can work for her and it can also work against her if, hypothetically, she were to go to trial on more serious charges.

JOEY JACKSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It could, Jane, but we have to understand is that everyone processes information differently and handles information differently. And that`s why I believe -- getting back to what we were talking about earlier -- that not having her in the courtroom was brilliant by Mr. Baez.

Because now you focus the judge on the issues and the motion, and not on, oh, was she -- you know was she having a straight face, was she grinning, was she smiling, was she laughing, did she look confused, did she look disinterested.

And that`s why that was important. But with regard to the original issue of insanity, we`re nowhere near establishing or even talking about an insanity defense or -- you know, a plea at this point.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think you make a very good point, because had she shown up in court you know we`d be talking about what was she wearing.

JACKSON: Exactly.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: . and was she acting strange.

JACKSON: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did she look at somebody cross-eyed? Did she show up in pajamas?

JACKSON: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly. Well, that`s Michael Jackson. That`s another story, entirely.

All right, listen, Felicia, Alabama, I understand you have a question, ma`am.

FELICIA, ALABAMA RESIDENT: Yes, ma`am. Why is the judge not allowing the evidence from the cadaver dogs, considering they found a scent in Casey`s trunk?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, let`s go to Detective Lieutenant Steven Rogers with Nutley, New Jersey Police Department. The judge said no to basically cross-examining the cadaver dogs. You cannot cross-examine dogs.

DET. LT. STEVEN ROGERS, NUTLEY, N.J. POLICE DEPT., FMR. MEMBER, FBI JOINT TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Yes, that`s correct. What he`s saying, actually, is not to cross examine the police officers who used those dogs.

Now, why he did that, I don`t know. But I can tell you this. That the police need not fear any emotions by the defense attorney if they did a good job and I believe the police in this case did a very meticulous good job and we`re going to see an indictment for possibly murder next week.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know I want to go back to Jessica D`Onofrio, reporter, CNN affiliate WKMG. You`ve been following this possible grand jury that we expect to begin -- well, actually it`s the last day of the grand jury, but to begin to hear Casey Anthony`s case on Tuesday.

We`re hearing that her father, her mother and her brother might testify. We`re hearing about all these witnesses. Do you really think that they`re going to call the family to the stand? Because couldn`t that put them in a bad squeeze if they change their testimony from what they said originally that`s on tape to investigators when they were first interviewed?

D`ONOFRIO: Well, quite possibly, Jane. I mean -- I do I believe that they are going to call George Anthony to come and testify in front of that grand jury. I do believe they`ll call Cindy and I do believe that they`ll call Lee.

I mean these are the people who are closest to her, these are the people who knew about her movements, who knew what she said in the past, and I am sure that the prosecution is going to want to them to talk about that in front of this grand jury.

So I am sure that they are to be called -- George, absolutely for sure. I heard he was told to clear his schedule for Tuesday so that he could be there.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Midwin Charles, Joey Jackson, what if the dad who`s clearly been so upset, understandably, with everything that`s gone on in his life, I mean, basically, this has wrecked his life, gets up there and says, you know, I don`t want to testify? What happens then, Midwin?

CHARLES: You know, very difficult. I mean, it`s going to be one of those things where he can possibly be held in contempt of court. They could go in and introduce his prior testimony to the police.

And, you know, say, hey, you said this back then. What do you mean you`re not willing to testify here? They`re open to variables here. I mean, at the end of the day, Jane, this is a family that just has been ripped apart by what has happened here. It`s really unfortunate.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, it is. You did see video right there of George throwing things because he`s just fed up. And who can judge? I mean, if we were in their shoes, how would we act? We don`t know.

But Joey, do you expect that he will testify cooperatively?

JACKSON: Well, you know, I don`t know how cooperatively it will be. But judging from all of the things that have occurred and the statements he`s made with respect to the trunk and all of the information that he`s provided, it would suggest that he would go in there and tell the grand jury his story.

The grand jury will indict. As Sol Wachtler has said, chief -- former chief judge of New York, a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

C. ANTHONY: It did seem like, it -- from our perspective, all it seemed like from day one, you guys were building a case against Casey as a murderer. She is not a murderer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We.

C. ANTHONY: She`s not a murderer. One thing I know is she loves that child.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We even pulled surveillance video from an apartment complex and they have to keep this by law for several days, OK? And we`re not seeing you over there. We`re not seeing you there at all, that day.

Do you think that we`re stupid or we`re not going to.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TOT CAYLEE: I know you`re not stupid.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: . do all this stuff.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, Caylee may not be in very good shape. Do you understand what I`m saying? She may not be the way we -- the way your family last remembers her. We need to find out from you where Caylee is.

This -- right now is just -- this has gone so far downhill and this has become such a mess that we need to end it. It`s very simple, we just need to end it.

CASEY ANTHONY: I agree with you. I have no clue where she is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure, you do.

CASEY ANTHONY: If I knew where in any sense where she was, this wouldn`t have happened at all.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Valez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace. The case of missing toddler Caylee Anthony appears to be speeding toward a dramatic crescendo. Will a grand jury convene on Tuesday and indict the missing tot`s mother on murder or manslaughter?

Meantime, Casey Anthony`s lawyers rack up a string of very impressive wins in court. Just hours ago, as prosecutors fume, and all the while, the search for Caylee is kicking into high gear, that search is headed by Tim Miller, the head of Equusearch.

Tim, I understand you had a meeting today involving the Anthony family. Tell us about it.

TIM MILLER, HEAD OF EQUUSEARCH, RESUMING SEARCH FOR MISSING TOT CAYLEE ANTHONY: You know, Mark is just an incredible man, an incredible attorney, I would only hope that the Anthonys would take advantage of what he has got to offer. He certainly -- our meeting lasted for three hours.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What did you discuss, though?

MILLER: We discussed the possibility of what`s going to happen in the future. We discussed where -- you know, how our hearts are broken for the Anthony family. I mean they`re going through something they never chose to go through.

Mark`s actually gotten with the Never Give up Hope Foundation to help us fund a continued search. And, you know what, Mark is just an incredible man and has a lot of compassion for this family.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I understand that. But was there any news -- was there any news that came out of it?

MILLER: The news that came out of it was actually supposed to be meeting with the Anthony family and discuss future searches. You know, let them know that we`re not the enemy, we`re by their side.

And you know, I understand there`s a lot of emotions right now, and we hope maybe that meeting is going to happen tomorrow, so we can meet with George and Cindy and let them know what it looks like the future is going to bring to them.

And unfortunately, it doesn`t look good. But, again, this is not something that they chose, and my god, who would want to be in their shoes? And I think they got a lot more support than they understand.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely. I agree with you 100 percent. We have nothing but compassion for the extended family. I mean, this is something that has to be a nightmare beyond comprehension.

Toni from Georgia, you have a question.

TONI, GEORGIA RESIDENT: Yes. Casey hasn`t worked in almost two years since she worked at Universal. Well, I was wondering if anyone knew where she had been spending her time and if that could give them any clues where to look.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Natisha Lance, NANCY GRACE producer, what can you tell us about what she was actually doing when she told her mother over and over again and others, hey, I`m going off to work at Universal, which was totally bogus?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, it seems that she was either spending time at her boyfriend`s apartment, at Tony Lazzaro`s apartment. Otherwise, she was off during the day, because Tony Lazzaro has actually said that during the day when he was in class, he didn`t know where Casey was.

He was under the impression that she was at work. So it remains to be seen exactly what she was doing during the day time hours. But in the evening she tended to be with her friends.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, I want to go back to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, who has said in the past that there was always a grain of truth in Casey Anthoy`s lies.

She lied about working at Universal. She would go off in the morning and kind of disappear. And there`s really no clear-cut explanation of exactly what she was doing.

Is it possible that she had some kind of double life? And is that something that you think investigators are digging into or not?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: Well, you know, earlier the gentleman with the police department from New Jersey said that the Orange County Sheriff`s Office has done a great job. They have.

There are some things that are going to come out at the grand jury that is just going to overwhelm people that have had any doubts. The child is dead. Orange County Sheriff`s Office and the FBI are very aware of this. They`ve got the proof. And at the grand.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait, what proof? What proof? I mean, if we had the proof, we wouldn`t be here right now.

PADILLA: Oh, yes, oh, yes, because she is still presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, I understand that.

PADILLA: . and with all certainty.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But we wouldn`t be having this conversation.

PADILLA: Well, we`re having this conversation simply because somebody wishes to question the FBI`s lab results, the deed band on the hair and the decomposition of the -- of a human being in the trunk of the car.

Now maybe I`m old-fashioned, but I believe in those things, and so far, nobody has come up that is reputable and said, well, gee, here is the answer. Cindy said somebody had access to the trunk. Casey says, well, you know.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.

PADILLA: . Jesse might have put a body in there, you know?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me bring in Lawrence Kobilinsky, though, forensic scientist and he is the expert. Give us a thumbnail as we -- very quickly -- of all of the evidence of what it points to in terms of a deceased body.

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Well, the issue of the hair first. There is -- it is known, it`s been published, that hair will develop a banding pattern after a person dies.

The banding pattern represents hair sacks, that to the naked eye, visibly, it looks like a banding pattern. There are maybe.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And they found that in the hair?

KOBILINSKY: They -- well, this is what we`re hearing. We haven`t seen any official reports. But if that is true, then that is one indicator that we`re talking about somebody who -- who is deceased. There may be other explanations. I just don`t know enough about the findings.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. And then -- and I have to leave it there, Kobe. But, of course, you have the air samples that showed signs of decomposition. You have the chloroform, you have the cadaver dogs hitting on the trunk. A lot of evidence. We`ll see where it leads.

But first, CNN HEROES.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN HEROES.

CINDY LAUPER, SINGER: Hate crime sends terror through a community.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Shepard was left for dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve never been attacked like this.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: 22 swastikas were found.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just a random act of ignorance and violence.

LAUPER: You can die just because of who you are.

I`m Cindy Lauper. And my hero is Cathy Nelson because she fights for the rights of all people. Straight and gay.

CATHY NELSON, COMMUNITY CRUSADER: Lesbian and gay, bisexual and transgender equality is really the civil rights issue of this generation. I`m a lesbian and I see the issues very personally.

In 1989, I went to work for the human rights campaign.

This looks great, I really it.

Events are a vital part of what we do. It`s raising the visibility of the issues that we`re working on.

Cindy`s 2007 True Colors Tour was an amazing opportunity to educate about the upcoming hate crimes bill in Congress.

LAUPER: She had this idea of taking a postcard and send it to your congressman.

NELSON: Becoming an activist starts with one simple step.

LAUPER: We have to erase hate. It`s a lose-lose situation. I hope you all listen. Let you know about things that are going on. Right now, we could change.

NELSON: So what drives me is fighting for fairness and equality.

LAUPER: Cathy has helped a lot of people and don`t take any (INAUDIBLE) for it. And that`s a hero.

ANNOUNCER: Vote now at CNN.com/heroes.

CNN HEROES is sponsored by.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And now a look back at the stories making the headlines this week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: There`ll be a hearing at Orange County court where her attorney Jose Baez will argue his client should be allowed out of house arrest and she should be able to search what they`re calling places of interest in this case.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: What do you mean she wants out of house arrest. She should be in jail, number one. If she was out on bond the first time, she didn`t lift one little pinky, not one finger, to help find Caylee. So why now?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Guilty. Guilty. Guilty. Guilty. Guilty. Guilty.

GRACE: It`s been long time coming, guilty on O.J. Simpson, the former NFL Hall of Famer turn double murder suspect, has finally snagged a conviction out in Vegas after an alleged armed robbery.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Breaking news in the case of missing 3-year-old Florida toddler, Caylee Anthony. CNN affiliate WKMG reports that toddler (INAUDIBLE) may soon be facing homicide charges relating to the disappearance of her daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Today they released this video along with court documents in their check fraud case against Casey.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: We`ve seen that she purchased that hoody that she was wearing when she was arrested. We also see she purchased those white sunglasses that she`s become known for wearing now.

GRACE: Joining us tonight the head of Texas Equusearch, Tim Miller. Equuseach back in Florida, set to resume search for little Caylee.

MILLER: The last thing (INAUDIBLE) 1186 volunteers out there, plus all the resources (INAUDIBLE).

PADILLA: If Casey doesn`t come with up with a body between now and then, there`s definitely going to be an indictment.

And shortly thereafter, Tim`s going to find the body.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, let`s stop to remember Marine Corporal Jonathan Yale, 21, from Burkeville, Virginia, killed in Iraq. Lost his life saving fellow soldiers. Awarded the Purple Heart and Combat Action Ribbon.

He loved making people happy, skateboarding, paintball. He leaves behind grieving mom Rebecca and sister Tammy.

Jonathan Yale, an American hero.

Thanks to all of our guests for their insights. Thanks to you at home for tracking this very important case with us. We`re going to see you tomorrow night right here, 8 o`clock Eastern Time. In the meantime have a happy and a very safe evening.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/10/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Dress Like Caylee`s Found Near Airport

Aired October 13, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 17 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. A secret grand jury set to meet in about 12 hours. Prosecutors reportedly seeking homicide charges against tot mom Casey Anthony. Only question, will that charge be manslaughter or murder? When and if the indictment is handed down, mom Casey`s arrest likely immediate. Grandfather George the only witness from the Anthony family, as grandmother Cindy lashing out, claiming a political conspiracy, claiming that mom Casey`s the real victim and claiming police stopped searching for Caylee.

Three crucial defense motions still on the table, including mom Casey`s demand to break house arrest to personally and privately search for little Caylee. And tonight, a bombshell discovery by Texas Equusearch, back on the ground in Orlando. Is there finally a break in the search? Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More details emerge in the case of missing toddler Caylee Marie Anthony. Tot mom Casey Anthony could be facing a murder charge in the next 24 hours, as prosecutors are set to make their case in front of a grand jury early tomorrow.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: After about 7:00 o`clock, when I still hadn`t heard anything, I was getting pretty upset, pretty frantic. And I went to a neutral place. I didn`t really want to come home. I wasn`t sure what I`d say about not knowing where Caylee was, still hoping that I would get a call, or you know, find out that Caylee was coming back so that I could go get her. And I ended up going to my boyfriend, Anthony`s, house who lived in Sutton Place.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you talk to Anthony about what happened with Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, I did not.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: All it seemed like from day one is that you were building a case against Casey as a murderer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We...

CINDY ANTHONY: She`s not a murderer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We...

CINDY ANTHONY: One thing I know is that she loves that child.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s obviously one glowing (ph) factor, and that is that there is zero evidence in these documents that Casey harmed Caylee in any way or even remotely supports that accusation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anthony, who is a prime suspect in the case, is currently only charged with child neglect, as well as theft and fraud for allegedly stealing checks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You nervous about tomorrow, Casey?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The case of missing toddler Caylee Anthony appears to be speeding toward a dramatic crescendo. Will a grand jury convene on Tuesday and indict the missing tot`s mother on murder or manslaughter?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I got off of work, left Universal, driving back to pick up Caylee like a normal day. And I show up to the apartment, knock on the door. Nobody answers. So I call Zenaida`s cell phone and it`s out of service. So I sit down on the steps and wait for a little bit to see if maybe it was just a fluke, if something happened. And time passed. I didn`t hear from anyone. No one showed up to the house. So I went over to Jay Blanchard Park and checked a couple other places where maybe possibly they would`ve gone, a couple stores, just regular places that I know Zenaida shops at and she`s taken Caylee before.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you`re...

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... worried that if we find that out that people are going to look at you the wrong way?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission...

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... and hasn`t returned her.

CASEY ANTHONY: ... the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anthony remains the prime suspect in her daughter`s disappearance and maintains the child was kidnapped by the baby- sitter, Zenaida Gonzalez. Prosecutors are expected to present evidence, along with witness testimony, asking jurors to indict the tot mom on more serious charges. One of the witnesses that will reportedly be called is Caylee`s grandfather, George Anthony, who police say was the last person to see the child alive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG. Jessica, what`s the latest?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Well, Nancy, we`re waiting on the grand jury hearing tomorrow. We`re certainly going to be out there at 8:30 in the morning bright and early. That`s when she could be charged with murder or manslaughter. I`ve been hearing people now talk about charging her with child abuse leading to death. So we`re going to get some kind of indication on what the charges will be tomorrow, if that grand jury hands down an indictment.

We know that George -- I know that George got subpoenaed. That`s Casey`s father, George Anthony, got subpoenaed last Friday. So he will be the only family member to testify against her tomorrow in front of that grand jury. We`re also going to hear from several other people. About a half a dozen people will testify in front of them. We`ll hear from an FBI expert, among others, because that FBI expert obviously will know a lot more about that hair and the DNA and the death band on that hair that was found in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car.

GRACE: Out to Mark Williams with WNDB 1150. Mark, here`s the kicker. Isn`t it true that under Florida law, only cases that may result in capital punishment go to the grand jury?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSRADIO 1150: That`s it. That`s the Florida law right now as it stands, that if you are convicted or are accused of a capital crime before it goes to trial, you must have a true bill. So there`s anywhere from 15 to 21 grand jurors. Twelve jurors have to say that, yes, it is, in fact, a true bill, and they hand it back and say, OK, let`s go get this person. Let`s arrest this person and bring them into custody.

GRACE: Now, let me get something straight. I thought it took a simple majority, Mark Williams.

WILLIAMS: I`m hearing it`s 12 people that must say yea or nay to this. They must have 12 affirmative votes on that panel to get that true bill.

GRACE: So Jessica D`Onofrio, they do not need a simple majority out of 15? They can get by with 12?

D`ONOFRIO: I`m not exactly sure about the number there, Nancy. But what I do know is all they need to do is really convince this grand jury that there`s a reasonable suspicion that this child is dead and that the mother did it. If that`s the case, then this grand jury will likely hand down an indictment for murder or manslaughter.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. In about 12 hours, tot mom Casey Anthony`s case headed to a Florida grand jury. We are expecting homicide charges to be handed down against her. She is currently out on bond, on house arrest at her parents` home. That would end likely immediately with an arrest.

Let`s unleash the lawyers as we take your calls. We`ll be shortly joined by the head of Texas Equusearch, Tim Miller. Joining us tonight out of New York, Alex Sanchez, veteran trial lawyer, and defense attorney Jason Oshins, also out of New York.

Alex Sanchez, true bill, no bill -- explain the difference.

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: A true bill simply means that the grand jury has voted an indictment, meaning they have voted charges against you. A no bill means that the grand jury has decided that there is simply not enough evidence against you at the present time to have any charges filed against you.

GRACE: And Jason Oshins, to get a no bill does not mean the case is over with. That means that the state can then go and try to amass additional information and present the grand jury the same case again, if they want to.

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You`re absolutely correct, Nancy.

GRACE: And also, the whole argument, Jason Oshins -- the defense attorney in this case announced on national TV he, quote, "doesn`t believe in the grand jury system," which has been around since about the 12th century. Grand jury is just a charging mechanism. This is not a jury trial. This is very simply when a group of people chosen from property taxes or the voter registration list meet -- there are 15 to 21 in Florida -- and they decide is there probable cause, is there enough evidence to charge someone, to send the case to a jury to determine the truth of the matter. Jason, agree or disagree?

OSHINS: Well, you`re right. It`s a very low standard. I mean, all you`re looking at, basically, is, you know, as opposed to reasonable doubt, you`re looking at a de minimus, you know, level of evidence. And it`s presented by an arm of the prosecutor`s office. There`s no judge involved. It`s -- you know, it`s you against the prosecution right there with a very, very low standard to bring a true bill.

GRACE: Right now, I am being joined out of Orlando, Florida, by the head of Texas Equusearch, Tim Miller. And let me remind you, Tim Miller not just the head of this searching tool that has gone all over the world searching for missing people, particularly children and teens, he is a crime victim himself, Tim Miller`s daughter murdered and missing many, many years ago.

Tim, you`re back in Orlando, searching for Caylee Anthony. I understand you made a discovery.

TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Yes. I didn`t make the discovery. The discovery was made by a searcher. I`m very disappointed that it leaked, and it shouldn`t have been. But now it`s out, we need to clarify it.

GRACE: OK. I understand -- when I say "you," I am referring to Texas Equusearch. Was the searcher someone working with Texas Equusearch?

MILLER: Yes.

GRACE: And what was the discovery?

MILLER: Well, you know, it was an article of clothing that is very, very similar to an article of clothing that Caylee was wearing at one time and there`s a picture of it.

But Nancy, we`ve got to understand one thing. There`s been several articles of clothing found during this search effort. Many of them were sent off to a lab for analysis, and this one is being sent off also. So...

GRACE: OK, Tim Miller, let me ask you a couple of questions. Was the article of clothing a dress?

MILLER: Yes.

GRACE: OK. Was Caylee Anthony known to have a similar dress at one time?

MILLER: Yes.

GRACE: Was it a child`s size 6?

MILLER: Yes.

GRACE: Would a child size 6 be the size a 2 to 3-year-old girl would wear?

MILLER: I don`t think so. I`ve got my doubts on this. But you know, law enforcement`s doing their job...

GRACE: Well, according to our research, the answer is, in fact, yes. A child 2 to 3 years old would wear a child size 6, but it really depends on Caylee`s height and size. Tim Miller, where was the dress discovered?

MILLER: Well, it was alongside a road. It was a wooded area. It was laying in the bushes and...

GRACE: Was it near the Orlando airport?

MILLER: It was in an area where the -- of interest, where cell tower activity was happening.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The minute she gets re-arrested on the murder charge or the manslaughter charge, when it`s brought in by the indictment, she`ll have a no bail, and she won`t be able to go anywhere anyhow.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I think tomorrow is a political move on the state`s attorney`s office. I think that the only reason that they`re doing this is because Lawson Lamar (ph) finally has some competition in this race. I found out on good sources this weekend that that`s exactly why it`s going to grand jury tomorrow. I find that it`s absurd that all of these leaks are coming out of not only the state`s attorney`s office but the prosecutors office and the sheriff`s department at this time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know, it`s amazing the defense continues to claim leaks by the prosecution when they are the ones that went on the NBC "Today" show to talk about the case.

We are taking your calls live. In about 12 hours, the Florida grand jury set to meet in the case of tot mom Casey Anthony. Homicide charges expected to be handed down, and if they are, her arrest will be immediate. This as Texas Equusearch has discovered near the Orlando International Airport a child-size 6 Disney World and Mickey Mouse dress similar to one little Caylee once wore. It has been sent off for testing, and we are waiting to hear results on that.

We are taking your calls live. Out to Cindy in Louisiana. Hi, Cindy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love your show.

GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear? And hello to all of our Cajun friends.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. I have two really quick questions. One, who put up the bond for Casey Anthony to remain free after Leonard Padilla revoked her original bond? And was there ever any more information released about the improper use of donated funds by Casey`s parents?

GRACE: Excellent question. To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who first put up that bond. He`s joining us tonight from Reno, Nevada. He is from the California area. Mr. Padilla, who -- after you came off the original bond, who put up the bond to let her out?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: I believe that it was two companies. They each put up $250,000. One of them was McDonald (ph) Bail Bonds, and I believe the other half was put up by one of the major players in the bail industry in Florida, a fellow by the name of Russell Fabish (ph), through one of his agents. I believe. I could be wrong.

GRACE: Leonard, isn`t it true -- I`ve got the bonding documents right here. Isn`t that true that the parents put up surety to back those bonds?

PADILLA: Supposedly, Cindy and George put up the equity in their home to back the bond for collateral, yes.

GRACE: And to Natisha Lance, our producer standing by also in Orlando. What became of allegations of improper use of Caylee`s search funds?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, at this point, it was being investigated. The fund was shut down for a certain point of time, and now it has reopened with a different bank. But none of those allegations were ever substantiated.

GRACE: To Jessica D`Onofrio, joining us with WKMG. If a murder charge is handed down tomorrow, what becomes of the child abuse -- the child neglect charges that are currently on the books?

D`ONOFRIO: Well, Nancy, that charge could possibly be thrown out if a grand jury does decide to indict her on murder or manslaughter charges. So we`ll just have to wait and see if that happens.

GRACE: You know -- to the lawyers, Jason Oshins and Alex Sanchez. Alex, it`s my understanding that the child neglect charge will absolutely be thrown out. Why? Because the child neglect charge accuses her of not searching for her daughter when she goes missing. You come in with a murder or a homicide charge, that completely voids out the claim she didn`t conduct a search.

SANCHEZ: Yes, I think there`s two things that could happen with those cases. Number one, the prosecutor could try to merge both cases together under one indictment, the neglect charges and the possible murder charges. But more likely than that, the prosecutor may turn around and say, I`m voluntarily moving to dismiss the neglect charges and concentrate on the murder case.

GRACE: Jason, absolutely does not make any sense. They are factually conflicting. You cannot claim the mother was neglectful by not reporting her child missing or searching for her, when, in fact, you`re claiming she killed her. You cannot have your cake and eat it, too. You`ve got to choose charges.

OSHINS: Listen, the prosecution is not going to waste its valuable resources and the taxpayers` money to go on that lesser charge. That was done initially to hold her and to try and squeeze her for any further information. They`re definitely going to go after that top count and put all their resources inside that.

GRACE: To Deborah in Wisconsin. Hi, Deborah.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`d like to know about the shovel that Casey borrowed from her neighbor.

GRACE: Yes? What about it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The dirt on that shovel ever tested to see if it matched the dirt at the airport?

GRACE: What do we know about that shovel? Joining us, WNDB news person Mark Williams?

WILLIAMS: Well, what we know about the shovel is the last time we saw, it was bagged up by Orange County sheriff`s office investigators and taken out for testing. During tomorrow`s testimony, there`s, like, a half dozen investigators going to testify in front of the grand jury. That`s when we`re going to know what was on that shovel. That is the one unyielding piece of evidence which will probably come up tomorrow morning.

GRACE: Joining us, renowned medical examiner and author of "When to Call the Doctor," Dr. Joshua Perper joining us out of Miami, Florida. Dr. Perper, thank you for joining us. Dr. Perper, are you -- we expect tomorrow the grand jury to hear from about 12 witnesses, one being George Anthony, the grandfather, some detectives, most likely FBI, lab people.

Dr. Perper, are you familiar with the air samples that were analyzed by the body farm? Have you ever heard of the air samples being analyzed?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER: I didn`t heard specifically, but if the hair samples have bouts (ph) or roots, then it`s possible to check them for DNA and find out to whom they belong, whether they belong to Caylee or to the mother.

GRACE: Now, it`s my understanding that the hair has a banding mark on it. What does that signify?

PERPER: Well, it might signify there was some kind of object which produce this kind of mark, but it`s going to be very difficult to make a determination what was this particular object.

GRACE: And back to Mark Williams. Mark, who do you expect to come before the grand jury?

WILLIAMS: Well, we expect, obviously, Orange County sheriff`s office investigators who have been working this case since mid-July. Also, forensic specialists from the FBI. Also, FBI agents who have also worked on this case. They`re all wind (ph) up, ready to testify come tomorrow morning.

GRACE: Mark Williams, what do you know about the dark banding on the hair sample allegedly taken out of mom Casey`s car trunk?

WILLIAMS: Well, from what we understand is that hair banding -- and I`m not a forensic scientist by any stretch of the imagination -- that that shows -- when you see that banding, that shows that death has occurred to that person who that hair belongs to. And they have found that banding, Nancy, on that sample of hair they took out of Casey Anthony`s automobile.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is obviously one glowing (ph) factor, and that is that there is zero evidence in these documents that Casey harmed Caylee in any way, or even remotely supports that accusation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The grand jury will consider a range of charges against Casey, including first degree murder. It would only take a simple majority to find probable cause to indict, much lower beyond the guilt beyond a reasonable doubt threshold to later gain a conviction. Sources tell us they do expect a decision to indict or not by the end of the day Tuesday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That grand jury set to meet behind closed doors in about 12 hours from now, hearing evidence and testimony in the case against tot mom Casey Anthony.

Back to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG. I understand that the only member of the Anthony family to testify will be grandfather George. What is the crux of his testimony?

D`ONOFRIO: Well, Nancy, you know, you`ve heard in a lot of those -- that taped interrogation, he talks about Casey not letting him into the trunk of her car. He wanted to go back there. He thought she was acting a little strange, so he wanted to go inside her trunk. And she just blows right past him and gets something out of the trunk for him, whatever he wants.

So he`s going to provide a lot of information about her behavior, so on and so forth. Again, he`s the only person in the family to be testifying against her. We`re not going to hear from Cindy or Lee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I feel that my daughter from day one has gotten -- you know, she has been a victim just as much as Caylee has.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: The road is getting narrower for tot mom Casey Anthony, tonight, as the clock ticks down to a secret grand jury hearing.

Could that result in a murder or a manslaughter indictment?

Published reports quote a top investigator who plans to testify before the grand jury as saying, even though there is no body, no crime scene, no murder weapon, no confession, no nothing, the totality of everything leads him to only one logical conclusion.

He believes prosecutors will be able to prove that Casey killed her daughter, Caylee.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: In about 12 hours, the grand jury is set to either hand down a no bill or a true bill against mom Casey Anthony on homicide charges, meaning court watchers expect that to be a murder charge.

In the jurisdiction of Florida, only capital cases go before a grand jury. That`s in about 12 hours. At this time, we discover that Texas EquuSearch has discovered near the Orlando International Airport a child`s Disney World Mickey Mouse dress, size 6 -- child`s size 6 similar to a dress little Caylee once had and has been sent away for testing.

With me, the head of Texas EquuSearch, Tim Miller. His group working solely on donations. They are a volunteer group.

Tim Miller, is it true that you are considering pulling out of the search for one reason, because of lack of cooperation from the Anthony family?

TIM MILLER, HEAD OF EQUUSEARCH, JUST FOUND CHILD`S DRESS NEAR AIRPORT: You know, it`s -- we`ve got to remember, this is not about the Anthony family, and at times, allegations have been made against me, and it`s OK. This is about Caylee.

No, one of our members is actually on vacation this week that`s going to spend the entire week mapping areas out for this search to resume. We will be back here in two to three weeks, at the very, very most.

And this is about Caylee. We start getting focused on the other things.

GRACE: Mr. Miller, are -- is the family cooperating with you?

MILLER: Well, you know what, there is a report from a news reporter in Orlando that talked to Cindy today, and told Cindy that we`re $44,000 plus in this search, and in the efforts we`re putting in, and what the reporter told me that Cindy Anthony said that she would never speak to me again.

GRACE: Why?

MILLER: I -- I don`t have the answer for that. We were supposed to have some meetings this week when we came into town, have a group hug, let`s work together on this. They have been cancelled at the last minute. And.

GRACE: By whom? Who cancelled the meetings?

MILLER: By the Anthony family. By the Anthony family.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, standing by there in Orlando. Natisha, why is the family reportedly not cooperating with EquuSearch?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, reportedly, Nancy, because the family still has hope that they want to find Caylee alive. And that is what they believe. And.

GRACE: Well, wouldn`t they want to find her whether she were dead or alive? Wouldn`t they want to find her remains to know?

LANCE: Right. Yes, absolutely. But they want to search.

GRACE: It would kill me to have a loved one`s remains out in the open, being mistreated by the elements in that manner.

LANCE: They want to search with the guys that Caylee is still alive. And so they have felt that some things Tim Miller may have said.

GRACE: But why don`t they do both, Natisha? Why can`t both searches be possible?

LANCE: They don`t want to operate under that, Nancy. They want to operate under the assumption that Caylee is alive.

GRACE: OK.

LANCE: And they do not want to hear that she`s not.

GRACE: Dr. Lisa Boesky, psychologist and author of "When to Worry" -- Dr. Boesky, thank you for being with us, what do you read into their rejection of Tim Miller and Texas EquuSearch?

LISA BOESKY, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO WORRY": Well, I think that they -- I do not think that they think Caylee is still alive. I think they have lost their granddaughter, and now they`re trying to save their daughter.

And I have to think that there are some mixed emotions going on with Cindy, thinking, you know, as a mom would, could I have done more? Should I have adopted Caylee? Should I have pressed harder when we hadn`t seen Caylee?

I think that they`re really looking at how much enabling they did over the years and now they feel like this is their last hope to keep their daughter out of prison and they`re doing everything they can to try and convince us that she`s still alive. And I think deep down they know Caylee is not.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. We`re taking your calls live. With us, Alex Sanchez and Jason Oshins, both veteran trial lawyers. These are not just talking heads, they are in court on a routine basis handling felony matters.

To Alex Sanchez, do you expect an indictment to be handed down tomorrow?

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I don`t, because there`s no -- this is going to take quite a long time to present these witnesses.

GRACE: You know, are you the same Alex Sanchez that has blurted out on the air, a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich? Wasn`t that you?

SANCHEZ: I don`t believe I ever said that.

GRACE: Yes, I believe it was you.

SANCHEZ: Although the chief judge of the New York Court of Appeals said that. But in terms of the grand jury.

GRACE: It was actually Irvin Younger -- the state`s Irvin Younger who coined that. But please go ahead.

SANCHEZ: In terms of the grand jury, you have all these witnesses. They have to be brought to court. They have to testify. They have to bring their documents. You have to play tape recordings, a video, introduce laboratory reports.

It`s not likely that they`re going to come to this conclusion in one day. It`s more likely this is going to take several days, or even a couple of weeks to come to a determination.

GRACE: Jason Oshins, agree or disagree?

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think Alex is right. There is a -- monumental amount of evidence, and they want to get it right. They want to put it all in and have this impaneled grand jury come back with a true bill.

GRACE: This is not a trial jury, Jason Oshins and Alex Sanchez. You are intentionally misleading the viewers. This is simply a charging tool by the state. They hear a bare bones, skeleton case and they simply decide -- is there enough evidence that a jury should hear this case?

SANCHEZ: And by the way.

GRACE: And that`s all a grand jury does, Sanchez.

SANCHEZ: I think they`re making a mistake right now with this new evidence regarding the dress. Shouldn`t the grand jury be delayed until they find out the results of that dress, whether or not it was her dress or not?

GRACE: You know, that is the defense chief tactic.

To John Lucich, former investigator, author of "Cyber Lies," isn`t it true that a defense`s prime strategic tool is delay, delay, delay? The longer you wait, the weaker the state`s case may get, and the more likely memories will fade, witnesses and evidence will be lost. They always want to delay.

JOHN LUCICH, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "CYBER LIES": Absolutely, they do. In fact, they will also try and use the prosecution`s evidence against them.

You know, Baez just released a motion to get all this type of evidence. They want not only inculpatory evidence, but exculpatory evidences also.

Things that have proved negative for the investigation and they want all of this stuff to.

GRACE: No, I tell you, I don`t have a problem with that, Lucich. The Brady versus Maryland motion, which is a U.S. Supreme Court case, originating out of Maryland, says the state must hand over exculpatory evidence to the defense. Fine. Have at it.

If there is something exculpatory about Casey Anthony, I would like to hear it in court. The jury wants to hear it, fine. The state should win this case, fair and square if they can.

But to you, Lucich, the defense has been granted on Friday the ability to review much of the state`s physical evidence. How will that happen? Would you actually trust the defense attorneys to handle your evidence?

LUCICH: No. Let me just go back to the first point that you just talked about, because at the grand jury, they`re not going to get a chance to hear that exculpatory information and only hear one side of this case. And I think they`re going to have to put so much in, that they`re going to be able -- it`s going to take several days.

Now, as far as this second question you had for me, they`re not -- they`re not going to be able to.

GRACE: Yes. The Brady motion is not for the grand jury. That is for the petite jury of 12. Continue.

LUCICH: Right. They`re not going to be able to touch that stuff without being monitored 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. They`re not going to have sole access to that.

GRACE: Let`s go out to the calls. Linda in Texas, hi, Linda.

LINDA, TEXAS RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. My question is for your psychologist tonight.

GRACE: Yes.

LINDA: OK. I know that this case is quickly coming to a head, and I have all the sympathy in the world for the grandparents, but Cindy, the grandmother, I`m wondering, considering everything that Casey has done and said up to this point, Cindy has made excuses for her.

I`m wondering if somewhere, somehow, that Cindy is actually afraid of Casey, considering that she has called her a -- a sociopath herself.

GRACE: Excellent question. Dr. Boesky?

BOESKY: Well, I think this is very typical these days that a lot of teenagers and young adults, parents try to be their friend or they don`t want to get them angry. And you can tell that Casey can blackmail her parents. She can punish them. I mean you`ve heard what she said about herself being a spiteful B-I-T-C-H.

And so I think there is a level of fear. Not fear that she is going to hurt them or kill them, but I think there was fear that she was going to take little Caylee away from them, and so I think they did more for her just to keep her around, so that they could see their granddaughter.

GRACE: Everyone, quick break. We are taking your calls live.

And as we go to break, a very special happy birthday to a Pensacola, Florida little friend of the show. There he is, little Joey. He turns 5 years old today. A 5-year-old little crime fighter.

Isn`t he precious? Happy birthday, little Joey.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee is missing. Casey, she`s be standing right here by all of us. She`d be out searching if she could.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TOT CAYLEE: I have tried to find out just information from people going out to different places, like Fusion Ultra Lounge and a couple bars that I know Zenaida had gone to downtown before to see.

Just kind of random talk if anybody heard about my nanny or talk to her lately.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you tell anyone specifically that Zenaida took your child?

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The Florida grand jury set to meet on homicide charges reportedly in about 12 hours from now. Charges against to have the mom Casey Anthony in the disappearance her little girl, 3-year-old Caylee Marie. We are taking your calls live.

Out to Natisha Lance, standing in Orlando Florida. Grandmother Cindy is lashing out, making a lot of claims, including a political conspiracy against Casey Anthony? What does that mean?

LANCE: That`s right, Nancy. She is saying there are -- the district attorney, as well as the sheriff are up -- the sheriff is leaving office in January, and the district attorney is up for re-election in November. So she is making the insinuation that possibly they are doing things for political gain. He wanted to close some things out before he leaves office.

GRACE: But wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. He`s leaving the sheriff`s office. What, is he going to retire?

LANCE: Yes.

GRACE: I couldn`t hear you. Yes?

LANCE: Yes, yes.

GRACE: So how is it going to help him to bring a charge if he`s retiring?

LANCE: Well.

GRACE: He`s going to sit on his sofa and watch TV. And how is this going to help him?

LANCE: Well, he`s.

GRACE: No, I`m serious.

LANCE: Well, the sheriff`s office is saying that`s absolutely not true whatsoever that that.

GRACE: So what is her thinking? I`m asking you. Why - how could the sheriff -- he`s retiring. How could this benefit him?

LANCE: I guess they`re thinking that possibly they want to go out with a big bang.

GRACE: OK. Jessica D`Onofrio, thoughts?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WKMG: Well, let me just get something straight here, Nancy. The state attorney -- our state attorney here in Orange, Osceola County is Lawson Lamar. He is up for re- election.

GRACE: For re-election, yes. And the sheriff is retiring.

D`ONOFRIO: So he`ll be up for.

GRACE: We just heard that.

D`ONOFRIO: Exactly, exactly. So I guess what Cindy is trying to say here is he is trying to sneak this case in before he is up for reelection here. He doesn`t have a lot of time left, and he`s sneaking this in before the grand jury dissolves.

GRACE: Can I ask you, Jessica, does he have competition?

D`ONOFRIO: Sure.

GRACE: Who`s running against him?

D`ONOFRIO: He does have some competition out here in Orange/Osceola County, but I can say that it`s not just Cindy who is making these allegations. A lot of the people who I`ve talked to around the case have also brought that up, that this might be politically motivated.

And you know, a lot of people are trying to protect this case, and a lot of people want to see this case through. And I think that maybe their frustration may come in here, because they don`t want to see this case maybe tried before everything comes in, before all.

GRACE: You know.

D`ONOFRIO: . of the evidence comes in. Because there`s no statute of limitations on murder here. They can wait 25 years and bring this.

GRACE: Yes, yes. To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of California who first put up the bond for mom Casey Anthony. To say this case politically motivated is completely inane, because, Leonard, a little girl is missing.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: No, no.

GRACE: She`s gone. There is evidence of a dead body in the mother`s car trunk, with hair that is either the little girl`s or the mother`s that shows the person is dead, most likely. So how can anyone say this is a political stunt? There is evidence of death.

PADILLA: That`s a Cindyism. But, Nancy, let me take you back to the shovel. She backs the car into the garage, she takes the child, lays her dawn, takes her clothes off, moves the ladder towards the edge of the pool, puts the child in the pool, going to make it look like a drowning.

The child drops to the bottom of the pool, she goes to the neighbors, pulls the shovel from the neighbor, comes back up, scoops the child up, puts her back down on the grass.

GRACE: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Go ahead.

PADILLA: Anyhow. All I`m saying is.

GRACE: OK. Let me just say.

PADILLA: . there is your shovel. There is your shovel.

GRACE: . one line -- the search for chloroform shows me that there was never any accident. But you`re saying that.

PADILLA: You`re correct.

GRACE: . explains.

PADILLA: She wanted to make it look like a 911 accident.

GRACE: Understood.

PADILLA: But it never happened.

GRACE: Understood.

To Crystal in Georgia, hi, crystal.

CRYSTAL, GEORGIA RESIDENT: Hey, Nancy. I love your show. I watch it every night. My question is.

GRACE: Thank you, dear.

CRYSTAL: My question is, is when Casey goes in front of the grand jury in the morning, and they charge her with murder or manslaughter or whatever, and she goes to jail, will she get a bond? And if so, is it going to be the same old crazy stuff that`s been going on with all of the lies and -- playing games?

GRACE: Excellent question, Crystal in Georgia. Number one, she will not appear at the grand jury. There is -- you`re a target of the grand jury investigation or charging, you do not have to testify against yourself. She will not be there tomorrow.

But, back to Leonard Padilla. In a nutshell, she is out on bond on child neglect right now. If she is indicted -- and the fraud charges, for the checks. If she is indicted, that bond will be revoked. Will there be a bond on murder?

PADILLA: In a nutshell, no. She goes to jail, and she stays there.

GRACE: Does Florida give a bond on murder?

PADILLA: I don`t know what Florida does. California does on very few occasions, but not on murder one.

GRACE: Out to -- Tamara in Tennessee. Hi, Tamara.

TAMARA, TENNESSEE RESIDENT: Hey, how are you doing?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

TAMARA: Well, George and Cindy Anthony previously stated they had certain persons of interest under observation.

GRACE: Yes.

TAMARA: OK. Who were these people? Why were they of interest and what`s the status on this?

GRACE: To Mark Williams with WNDB, recall when George and Cindy stated there are other people of interest they believe little Caylee and they are being surveyed. What became of it?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Not much of anything. You know that was just a statement that George Anthony made under the heat of the pressure one day.

One Friday -- I believe it was one Friday afternoon, he was not able to produce any evidence and since that time, of course, he and Cindy have had several meetings with sheriff`s office investigators.

And Nancy, if I could say, I think when this thing is done -- said and done, I think Cindy and all three of them could be charged with obstruction of justice.

GRACE: I find that very, very difficult to believe, Mark Williams, but I do agree the parents are trying their best to help their daughter.

To Tracy in Maryland, hi, Tracy.

TRACY, MARYLAND RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. I love your show.

GRACE: Thank you, dear. My question is for Tim with EquuSearch. Wouldn`t he be able to get the reward money if he does find Caylee? And that would help his cause a lot?

GRACE: Excellent question. Tim Miller?

MILLER: You know what, from what I understand, that reward money is for a safe return and I -- we are not here for any money and no reason whatsoever. This is about Caylee, 100 percent Caylee.

So let`s not talk about money, OK?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: In about 12 hour, the Florida grand jury expected to hear evidence regarding indicting tot mom Casey Anthony in the disappearance of her little girl.

Out to the lines, Lynn, in North Carolina. Hi, Lynn.

LYNN, NORTH CAROLINA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

LYNN: Yes, they -- this question is for Mr. Miller. The dress that they found at the airport, was it in tact, was it torn or tattered or looked like it had been mutilated by animals or something?

GRACE: What was the condition of the dress, Tim?

MILLER: Good condition.

GRACE: Good condition.

MILLER: Good condition.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer standing by, grandmother Cindy, making a lot of accusations right now, including a conspiracy that police are not looking for little Caylee. What else?

LANCE: Well, just like you said she is saying that police are not looking for little Caylee. She also said that she has proof that they are not taking tips and following up on those tips any more.

GRACE: Also claiming that mom Casey is the real victim. What does she mean by that?

LANCE: She said that Caylee is not -- she said that Casey is a victim as well. To that, I guess, she said that her daughter has been tried in the court of public opinions. She said the jury pool is being tainted as well as the grand jury pool and there`s going to be no chance for Casey to get a fair trial.

GRACE: To Mark Williams of WNDB 1150, when will we know about the indictment?

WILLIAMS: I was thinking, I have to agree with some of your other experts. It`s not going to be tomorrow by any stretch of the imagination, because there will be a lot of evidence to be presented.

I would hope by the end of the week since they just have to have a burden of proof that -- that there is enough proof there to issue a murder one indictment.

GRACE: Everyone, we`ll give you the latest tomorrow night. But let`s stop now to remember Army Specialist Ronald Harrison, 25, Morris Plains, New Jersey, killed Iraq. Proud to serve, loved football, basketball, cooking.

His family`s favorite dishes, carrots and fish, chicken and London broil. Dreamed of working as an auto mechanic back home. Leaves behind parents, Richard and Beverly, sister, Heather, widow, Kagen, and son, Max.

Ronald Harrison, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/13/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Casey Anthony Indicated for First Degree Murder

Aired October 14, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 17 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Tonight, tot mom Casey Anthony behind bars after a Florida grand jury hands down a seven-count indictment. Charges: murder one, aggravated child abuse, aggravated manslaughter of a child, and of course, lying to police. Testimony starting 09:00 this morning, including grandfather George Anthony, cadaver dog handlers, the FBI and lead detective. Bombshell results from Tennessee`s state body farm reportedly sealing the decision to take the case to grand jury.

Tot mom Casey Anthony pulled over in traffic and arrested. No bond tonight. But did she actually make a last-ditch attempt to elude police in a getaway car? This just after a press conference where she sheds tears. But for who, little Caylee or herself? Will the state seek the death penalty? That would be making tot mom Casey Anthony the 16th woman in Florida history to be sentenced to death. But still tonight, the question remains, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today an experienced Orange County grand jury has heard sworn testimony and they returned a seven-count indictment against Casey Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news in the case of missing 3-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. An Orange County grand jury has indicted tot mom Casey Anthony for first degree murder, and as a result, the 22- year-old tot mom could be facing the death penalty.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: ... waste my call sitting in, oh, the jail?

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Whose fault is...

(CROSSTALK)

CINDY ANTHONY: Whose fault is you sitting in the jail? Are you blaming me that you`re sitting in the jail?

CASEY ANTHONY: Not my fault.

CINDY ANTHONY: Blame yourself for telling lies. What do you mean it`s not your fault? What do you mean it`s not your fault, sweetheart? If you would have told them the truth and not lied about everything...

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey is going through a nightmare and has been living a nightmare for the last several months. She has a missing child. She`s also someone`s child. This family has had to withstand something unlike anyone has ever seen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: Do you think Caylee`s OK right now?

CASEY ANTHONY: My gut feeling? Mom asked me yesterday, even (INAUDIBLE) they asked me last night, the psychologist asked me this morning, that I met with through the court, in my gut, she`s still OK. And it still feels like she`s -- she`s close to home.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not only was Anthony indicted for murder, but the grand jury indicted her on six additional charges, including aggravated manslaughter and aggravated child abuse.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 3- year-old Florida girl, Caylee. A Florida grand jury hands down a multi- count indictment against mom Casey Anthony, including murder one.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First and foremost, I would like to make it clear that we are not here to rejoice in today`s grand jury indictment. We are, however, pleased that the ladies and gentlemen serving on that jury were able to hear the evidence presented to them and arrive at an informed conclusion based strictly on the evidence that was presented to them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Obviously, I know and you know that everything you`ve told me is a lie, correct?

CASEY ANTHONY: Not everything that I told you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Pretty much everything that you`ve told me, including where Caylee is right now.

CASEY ANTHONY: That I still -- I don`t know where she is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure, you do. And here`s -- let me -- let me...

CASEY ANTHONY: I absolutely do not know where she is.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would again ask you and implore all of you to try and understand what Casey is going through and to understand that we have been preparing from day one for the very worst because that`s my job. And I wouldn`t be doing her a proper service if I didn`t prepare her for probably what`s going to go down today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s go through this again. We`re here because? We got here how? To do what?

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I lied.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Speaking directly as a father, a day doesn`t pass where I wish the evidence we have gathered in this case didn`t add up to the painfully obvious. Sadly, I cannot change the facts surrounding this investigation. The grand jury has concluded that little Caylee is deceased, and their daughter has been indicted in her death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG. Jessica, give us the latest.

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Well, Nancy, it only took 30 minutes for this grand jury to decide that Casey Anthony should be charged with first degree murder. Now, that charge does carry the death penalty in this state. And state attorney Lawson Lamar -- he was able to convince 12 -- at least 12 of the 19 jurors that this should go to trial. So this is a big, big twist in the case. This is a major event here, obviously. That doesn`t even need to be said. But as you like to say, Nancy, a major bombshell today.

GRACE: To Mark Williams with WNDB Newsradio 1150. Explain to me what went down today.

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSRADIO 1150: Well, what went down was those 12 -- at least 12 of those jurors said -- they indicted her on first degree murder, which is a capital case here in the state of Florida, also one count of child abuse, one count of aggravated manslaughter of a child and four counts of lying to police officers. That`s the big thing.

GRACE: To Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Who were the witnesses at grand jury?

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Who were the witnesses, did you say?

GRACE: Yes.

PIERCE: Well, first and foremost, George Anthony, who spoke for over an hour. And he made a statement beforehand saying that he was not happy to be doing it, but he did testify. Also, we heard from FBI agents, from forensic investigators, from the Orange County lead investigator, Yuri Melich.

GRACE: And Jessica D`Onofrio, in what order did they go before the grand jury? How long were they testifying?

D`ONOFRIO: They started, Nancy, at about 9:00 o`clock this morning. They heard from about half a dozen witnesses. They went through to lunch. They broke for lunch. They came back around 1:00 PM, and then they heard from about two more witnesses after that. So there were quite a few hours of testimony there. And about 3:30 in the afternoon, that`s when we heard that the grand jury had made a decision on this. That`s when we were all called in to the chambers, and that`s when we heard that she was going to be charged with a capital offense.

GRACE: And what do we know, Mark Williams with WNDB, whether the state will seek the death penalty?

WILLIAMS: Right now, state attorney Lawson Lamar says he has not made a decision whether Casey will undergo the death penalty or just life in prison. That still has yet to be determined, Nancy.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. We`re about to unleash the lawyers. Explain to me, Mark Williams, what happened when police were tailing mom Cindy Anthony with Casey Anthony in the car.

WILLIAMS: Unbelievable. Another bombshell for you. First off, Casey Anthony was at her attorney`s office in Kissimmee. She got into a car driven by her mother, Cindy. They started back on the 417 and got near what they call Boggy Creek Road, which is near the Orlando International Airport, just south of the airport. Cindy pulls underneath an underpass. That`s where Casey gets out, gets into a gray SUV, and that SUV takes off. Undercover agents trailing all this finally pull the SUV over.

We don`t know if she was trying to make the great escape to a nearby county or what, and we don`t know who the driver was of that SUV. Right now, she`s being booked into the Orange County jail here in Orlando. First appearance tomorrow morning 8:30 AM sharp.

GRACE: And what will that appearance be about?

WILLIAMS: Basically, the reading of the charges. Her attorney will be there. She`ll be there. And she`ll be scooted back to her jail cell.

GRACE: I noticed that in the press conference -- you`re seeing video of it right now, Caylee -- Casey Anthony speaking beside her attorney -- to Leonard Padilla, she breaks down in tears. What do you make of it?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, I got to tell you, Nancy, that`s the first time. And I haven`t seen it yet because I just got back from a convention up at Lake Tahoe. But that`s the first time that I`ve heard anybody tell me that she broke down and cried during the whole situation that I`ve been involved in. And what it tells me is that reality might be soaking in and maybe Jose might have a shot of reality at this stage of the game.

GRACE: Joining us right now, an exclusive guest this evening, Mark Nejame. He`s joining us from Orlando, Florida. He is the attorney for grandparents George and Cindy Anthony, Mr. Nejame a trial veteran. Sir, thank you for being with us.

MARK NEJAME, ATTORNEY FOR CINDY AND GEORGE ANTHONY: Good evening, Nancy.

GRACE: I understand at the outset that you cannot comment on George Anthony`s testimony before the grand jury today. But I would like to hear an explanation as to why your client, Cindy Anthony, changed her daughter out of the car into another car under an overpass.

NEJAME: I`m not sure that`s what happened at all. I`ve -- in all honesty, I was dealing with George throughout the day and I have not spoken to Cindy. I`ve only spoken to George today. It was, as you can imagine, a pretty amazing day emotionally for him, and so that`s where the attention was. And then I spoke to him late afternoon, then simply left the office and have called and have not spoken to either of them later this evening.

GRACE: Mr. Nejame, your client, George Anthony, repeatedly stated that he was not concerned about the grand jury testimony because he would not be testifying against his daughter.

NEJAME: I`m not sure about that, Nancy, because you can surely see that something quite different happened today. The reality of it is, is that George Anthony stood up and was honest and answered every question posed to him. We can, of course, not get into the contents of that. But the reality of it is, is that he realized that this is what he needed to do and he did it, and it took an incredibly courageous act for him to do so. To testify against your own daughter, who`s accused of murdering her daughter, your beloved granddaughter, is an act of courage that I`ve rarely seen or witnessed in my life.

GRACE: Well, Mr. Nejame, it may very well be that him believing he was telling the truth would not be damning. But throughout this ordeal, your client, George Anthony, seemed to be the most realistic and the most cooperative with cops.

Very quickly, back to Jessica D`Onofrio. What did you believe was the crux of Anthony`s testimony to the grand jury, Jessica?

D`ONOFRIO: I`m sorry, I didn`t hear you, Nancy.

GRACE: What was Anthony`s testimony to the grand jury?

D`ONOFRIO: Well, George Anthony was brought here today as the only family member to speak and testify against his daughter. He obviously knew a lot about her behavior, and he knew the last time he saw that child alive. So his testimony probably held a lot of weight today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING TODDLER: My focus is always on my granddaughter. It always will be. I love my daughter. I love my wife. I love my son. I want everyone to have a prayer for all of us today, especially for my granddaughter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re here because? We got here how? To do what?

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I lied.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not a bit of useful information`s been provided by Ms. Anthony as to the whereabouts of her daughter. And I would point out that the truth and Ms. Anthony are strangers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You pointed at a third floor window and you said, Well, that`s whatshername`s bedroom and Zanny`s bedroom is right below -- is on the other side. That`s what you told me. So that was a lie.

CASEY ANTHONY: That was a lie.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey has lied to me in the past. And when she`s lied, she`s told me the truth. We`ve always gotten to the bottom of the truth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The Florida grand jury hands down a multi-count indictment against tot mom Casey Anthony just hours ago, this done behind closed doors, those charges including murder one. In the Florida jurisdiction, that is death penalty-qualified.

The district attorney has not made an announcement whether the death penalty will be sought. There are only a few women in Florida history that have been sentenced to the death penalty. I believe this would make her the 16th woman in Florida history to actually be sentenced to the death penalty, only two having been executed in the past. Here you are seeing some of them.

As we show you those shots, let`s unleash the lawyers, Raymond Giudice out of Atlanta, Doug Burns out of New York. What do you make of the charges, Ray?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, obviously very serious, but I actually see a glimmer of hope for the defendant in count number three. This is the aggravated manslaughter count. It has two opportunities for the jury to find a lesser offense or for her to plead guilty. Opportunity number one, that the child died by culpable negligence. We`ve talked about that on many shows. Or secondly, that the child died through the neglect or exploitation of another person. These are opportunities for a plea bargain.

GRACE: Explain.

GIUDICE: Well, it`s a lesser offense. It`s not capital one. It`s not going to the chair. It might be 20 to life. It might be less.

GRACE: What about it, Doug Burns?

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, I agree with Raymond. I mean, everybody`s been unsuccessful in trying to get her to speak. Well, when they sit her down in a room and say, We are seeking to put you to death, potentially, I think her attitude may change. And I think those lesser charges are in there, exactly as Ray said, to get her to explain what really happened.

GRACE: Well, let me see the two defense attorneys right now. Both of you are misleading the viewers. And I say this because you all know that on a murder one charge, without there being an additional indictment, the jury will be given opportunities to find a lesser included offense, such as manslaughter. It didn`t have to be in the indictment.

GIUDICE: Nancy, it`s -- go ahead, Doug. Go ahead.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Ray?

BURNS: We`re talking about plea bargaining, not...

GRACE: So? It doesn`t have to be in the indictment for a plea bargain either, Doug Burns.

GIUDICE: Well, but it`s indicative of the fact that the state is already positioning this.

BURNS: Right.

GIUDICE: Number one, they don`t have quite the case they think they do. Or number two, as Doug said...

GRACE: You know what?

GIUDICE: ... they`re sending her and her counsel a message. Come on, we`ve got this set up for your plea.

BURNS: Yes.

GRACE: Let`s see the lawyers again. You know what, you two? I`m not including Nejame in this one because he`s never said this. But you two from the get-go, second verse, same as the first. Every time I threw you a question, no matter what the question was, it was, Blah, blah, blah, there`s not an indictment. Well, today there is an indictment and you`re already saying the state is jockeying for position. You know, it never ends with you two.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. To Shannon in Florida. Hi, Shannon.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call. I appreciate it.

GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) you were talking about, the indictment, how can the grand jury see (INAUDIBLE) due to the manslaughter charge (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: OK, you know what? I couldn`t make out your question. Repeat? OK, can`t hear Shannon in Florida. Let`s go to Marla in Texas. Hi, Marla.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Hello, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call. My question is, on the dress that they found, like, two days ago, any results on that?

GRACE: Let`s go straight to Tim Miller with Texas Equusearch. Tim, what more can you tell us about the dress that was discovered, a child`s size 6? It was a Disney World Mickey Mouse dress, similar to a dress we know that Caylee once had. It has been sent for testing. What can you tell us about it?

TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Just what you just said, Nancy. It`s been sent for testing. And of course, it`s going to take some time for results to come back on that dress, but -- you know, that`s all I know about the dress.

GRACE: Tim, are you going to resume searching or not?

MILLER: Nancy, we don`t have a choice. I mean, right now, with the evidence that apparently has came down, it`s -- you know, it looks like it`s apparent there`s a body out there. And for no reason to -- to try to put Casey through no more pain, Caylee`s little body needs to be found. I mean, this little girl needs to be found. The community needs that closure...

GRACE: So is that a yes?

MILLER: Yes. Caylee`s body needs to be found and...

GRACE: So are you going to continue searching?

MILLER: The search, Nancy, will be larger than any search I feel we have ever done in history. Yes. The answer is yes.

GRACE: Out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. What were the feds doing in that grand jury testimony today?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, Nancy, they kind of broke it down. You had George. You had the cadaver dog. You had the lead investigator and the FBI agent in between. He was second from last.

He was there to testify on all the investigative leads that the FBI has conducted both in Florida, out of Florida, the forensic testing and possibly, quite possibly, some of the polygraph examinations that were given by their people. He was there to talk about anything and any role that the FBI has had, in this -- in this case within cooperation with Orange County.

GRACE: To Mark Williams with WNDB. Mark, I noticed that -- in much of the reporting, it was stated that results from the Oak Ridge body farm - - what were the impetus of the state`s final decision to go to the grand jury? Is there more from the body farm than what we know, other than the air samples out of the trunk?

WILLIAMS: Well, if there is, Nancy, they aren`t certainly telling us. They haven`t told us that information whatsoever. I would assume -- again, just an assumption -- that when the body farm did conduct the air quality samples and found that chloroform in the back of Casey`s car, is that there is a lot more to be let out. And I think that will come out during trial, Nancy.

GRACE: Back to Mr. Mark Nejame. He is the attorney for Cindy and George Anthony. At this juncture, do you believe that they will cooperate with police, or are all bets off?

NEJAME: I don`t know why you would make that statement, Nancy. The fact of the matter is, George obviously cooperated with the police. In fact, we didn`t -- we kept it under the radar, but a week ago, they voluntarily, without subpoena, went in and provided DNA samples of saliva and hair. So the fact of the matter is -- the fact of the matter is...

GRACE: You know what? You`re right, Mr. Nejame. Let me rephrase my question.

NEJAME: Thank you.

GRACE: Will Cindy Anthony now cooperate, and Lee Anthony, fully with police?

NEJAME: I don`t represent Lee Anthony. I`ve only met him once, so I can`t address Lee. I can tell you that Cindy Anthony appeared voluntarily a week ago without subpoena and gave hair and saliva samples pursuant to request. So the answer was she did, and I anticipate that will continue.

GRACE: Do you believe they`ll take polygraphs?

NEJAME: Sorry?

GRACE: Will they take polygraphs?

NEJAME: If deemed to be appropriate. But as you well know, they`re inappropriate because Cindy is on medication and they`re not suspects -- and they`re not -- and they`re not...

GRACE: Plenty of witnesses take polygraphs.

(CROSSTALK)

NEJAME: Excuse me. I wasn`t through...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It only took the grand jury about 30 minutes to come to a conclusion on this case. At least 12 people up there believed that there was enough evidence to indict Casey Anthony for murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This indictment is not proof of guilt. It is a grand jury finding and accusation. The defendant is cloaked with the presumption of innocence and has a right to a jury trial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers." Bethany, you`ve seen the press conference this afternoon where she finally broke down in tears just around the time of her indictment. What do you make of it?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, I think it`s tempting to think, as Jose (SIC) Padilla suggested, that reality has hit her, but I really doubt that. I mean, she`s shown a complete incapacity to grapple with reality or to even let it bother her in any real way. I think the fact is, her Christmas has been taken away. I think this was a carefully laid plan to get rid of her daughter so she could have a fantastic life and to spend time with her boyfriend and her friends. And now it`s all gone, and that`s what she`s thinking about, I believe, at this moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there has been a dead body in the damn car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I actually went into the car to smell what it smelled like, and in my experience, a smell that I smelled inside that car was the smell of decomposition.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Derick(ph) jumped up into the trunk, front poles, stuck his head in, backed back up, did the eye contact, and gave me a fine train of alert.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What does that mean?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He alerted to the odor of human decomposition.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I`ve just got to tell you what my feelings are. I don`t like how it smells. I`m being straight with you guys. I just don`t -- I don`t like the smell in the car.

C. ANTHONY: There is no evidence that there is a child that is dead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is the possibility this child is no longer alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, that can be concluded.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S LAWYER: Casey is going through a nightmare and has been living a nightmare over the last several months. She has a missing child. She is also someone`s child. This family has had to withstand something unlike anyone has ever seen.

And we just ask that everyone respect that and everyone understand what Casey Anthony is going through.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: You know, it`s still amazing to me that throughout this entire ordeal, culminating in today`s grand jury indictment of tot mom Casey Anthony with murder one, plus other charges, never once have we heard her make a public plea for people to help her find her child.

Even today, when she is facing indictment, finally, the tears flow. But never did we see that for her daughter. Now, of course, the defense attorneys tonight will argue that means nothing in a court of law. I beg to disagree.

To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientist out of John J. College of Criminal Justice, and he is hired, on board the Casey Anthony defense team.

Dr. Kobilinsky, do you believe that there is additional evidence from the body farm that cutting-edge crime lab in Oakridge, Tennessee. Do you think that there are additional tests, other than the air samples?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: There are very well may be additional tests. I`m very struck by what you just said.

Lawson Lamar, the state`s attorney, and I quote -- he said the investigation contains intricate forensics that are on the cutting edge of science. And now I think that the defense team really has to look at that science, question the -- reliability, determine whether there are validation studies, and whether there are support by other scientists in the relevant discipline for this technology.

GRACE: Kobe, you know what? Save it for a jury, because I`m sure there`s going to be one. Because the very same arguments have been made about fingerprints, they`ve been made about tire tracks, they`ve been made about touch DNA. They have been made about DNA.

KOBILINSKY: Yes. And remember, Nancy.

GRACE: (INAUDIBLE)

KOBILINSKY: Remember, that thing.

GRACE: Naysayers have said no such thing about cadaver dogs, fire dogs, drug dogs, you name it, always a naysayer, saying, it`s not so. So now you`re going to tell me that science against Casey Anthony isn`t so?

KOBILINSKY: Well, you mentioned fingerprints, and remember that the FBI had a case recently, the Madrid train bombing, where three examiners got it wrong. We have to make sure that the science is reliable, because people`s lives.

GRACE: You know what, Kobe, I couldn`t hear you. What type of science was wrong?

KOBILINSKY: I said the fingerprint evidence in the Madrid train bombing case was wrong. The FBI.

GRACE: You mean, where the -- part of the train that blew up?

KOBILINSKY: Yes, that`s correct.

GRACE: Yes, well, I guess so.

KOBILINSKY: In other words.

GRACE: When part of the train has blown up, how can you achieve a perfect fingerprint? But are you telling me, right now, on national TV, that you doubt fingerprint technology?

KOBILINSKY: No.

GRACE: That you don`t believe it`s for real?

KOBILINSKY: No, what I`m saying is that.

GRACE: Oh OK.

KOBILINSKY: . mistakes can be made.

GRACE: Glad to hear that. But mistakes are not what you said before. Before you said the science may not be legitimate.

KOBILINSKY: Well.

GRACE: And so the state has got a problem. Now you`re saying mistakes. So what argument are you going to make, Kobe?

KOBILINSKY: Well.

GRACE: Which one? You can`t have your cake and eat it, too.

KOBILINSKY: Well, for the science to be admissible, it has to be deemed reliable and supported by the discipline.

GRACE: Yes, we know that.

KOBILINSKY: Here we may have questions, because it sounds to me like this is cutting-edge science that.

GRACE: So what about your mistake argument? Are you suggesting that the state has made mistakes handling the evidence?

KOBILINSKY: I think anything is possible. We have to look closely at that.

GRACE: So let`s go to the lawyers. Ray Giudice, Doug Burns.

Ray Giudice, just take off your defense hat for just a moment. There was a long, long time, years ago, you were a prosecutor.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes.

GRACE: You were an officer of the court as a prosecutor. Now it`s very simple. Every scientific test must be shown to be a reliable test.

GIUDICE: That`s right.

GRACE: Yes, no?

GIUDICE: A foundation has to be laid. That`s correct.

GRACE: Now, do you also, like Kobilinsky, doubt the validity of fingerprint tests?

GIUDICE: Not at all. However, here is the doctor`s point. When I first started prosecuting DUIs 25 years ago, they first introduced the breath test machine. You know there were a lot of jurors that didn`t believe a machine could tell you how much alcohol or how many beers that defendant had the night before, and there were a lot of not guilty`s for the first few years and a lot of cases went up to the court of appeals.

Cutting-edge science is issues for reversible error.

GRACE: Doug Burns?

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Look, I disagree with everybody in the sense that we can`t talk about anything. Let`s see the evidence in a courtroom, which is what you always preach, Nancy, and then and only then can we start challenging, questioning and going back and forth, which is what we do for a living.

And, of course, I was also a good guy, a prosecutor, for nine years.

GRACE: Yes, you were.

Let`s go back to the reporters, everyone. Just hours ago, handed down a felony indictment against tot mom Casey Anthony. We are taking your calls live.

To Erica in Florida, hi, Erica.

ERICA, FLORIDA RESIDENT: Hi. I was curious as to the reason why they didn`t put -- say death penalty? Is it because they`re going to use it as a bargaining tool for her to.

GRACE: Erica, that`s very astute of you, Erica in Florida. Now, first of all, at this juncture, which is just the charging phase, no one expects for the state`s attorney to come out and say, yes, we`re going to seek the death penalty.

Very rarely do you get a sudden announcement of that nature. Typically, it will be several days, weeks, maybe, sometimes months, after the initial indictment that that decision is made.

And in many offices, it`s made by a committee, not just the elected D.A. makes the decision. So I would not expect that for some time.

But what about, Mike Brooks, the death penalty and a murder one charge, as a bargaining chip, for her, Casey Anthony, to tell where the body is?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Oh, absolutely, Nancy. You know, as Doug said, and as Ray said -- I rarely agree with Doug and Ray, but I have to agree with them on this, they`re going to sit her down.

And when she -- when they start talking about lethal injection and putting her to death, that might strike a little bit of reality for a change in this young lady and maybe -- decide to cooperate with law enforcement.

But you know, we heard from Baez again today, Nancy. It`s all about poor Casey. You know, what about poor Caylee as she lays somewhere, you know, decomposing?

You know, come on, Casey, you`ve got to cooperate, or else you are going to get a needle in your arm. Bottom line.

GRACE: We know -- to Leonard Padilla, I understand what everybody is saying about use the manslaughter charge as a bargaining chip. You know what, Padilla, they had that chance to cut a deal a long time ago.

And the attorney, Jose Baez, got on air, said point blank, oh, no, I don`t want immunity, no limited immunity deal for me. No, no, no. We`re not working a deal.

So in my mind, that train has left the station, and now it`s time to go forward with the prosecution.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: I think you`re absolutely correct. And I was just reviewing in the studio here, while you were interviewing the other guests. She is not crying. There isn`t a tear being shed down her face. She is not crying.

She is the same person that was dealing with us when we were back there for those nine days. There is a sadness in her face, but she is definitely not crying.

GRACE: You know, Padilla, another thing tonight, as much as people have lambasted Cindy Anthony, and maybe she`s made some wrong choices, that house must be so quiet and so full of pain tonight.

PADILLA: And let me tell you something else that was discussed many times when Rob Dick was driving her to and from her attorney`s office. The choppers that were overhead, that they were never able to see the cars when they were under the overpasses and that was something that was commented on several times.

GRACE: What more can you tell me about the quick change under the overpass, Jessica D`Onofrio?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WKMG: Well, she was leaving her attorney`s office with her mother. They went underneath that overpass, and she switched and got into her bail bondsman`s car. It was a gray SUV.

The bail bondsman`s car takes off with her, and then an unmarked sheriff`s deputy car pulls her over and then takes her to the Orange County Sheriff`s Office, in turn, after that, she goes to the Orange County jail.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAEZ: The grand jury process is a prosecutorial tool, and that is why it`s not something that I would participate in. I`m not allowed to cross examine, which would be a true test of any evidence. The ability to withstand the cross-examination, and I don`t think that`s a process that we wish to engage in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey is one who hasn`t shown any emotion at all.

PADILLA: She acted absolutely like nothing had happened.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She seemed like everything was normal. She went about her business every day. She always seemed like she had a smile on her face.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She hasn`t shown any emotion at the disappearance of her daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These chairs aren`t very comfortable?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You lay way back.

C. ANTHONY: Exactly. I`m not comfortable.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel like I`m going to.

C. ANTHONY: (LAUGHTER)

BAEZ: Casey is going through a nightmare and has been living a nightmare for the last several months.

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: She has been crying. Now it`s not bawling, mind you. Her mother immediately goes who took her, who took her and Casey goes, the nanny did. She was kidnapped, mom. And at that point, my sister is done crying.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Despite the charges filed against Miss Anthony today, I want to remind everyone that we have not achieved our primary objective in this investigation. We have not recovered little Caylee Anthony.

We, for the sake of Caylee`s grandparents, her loved ones and those on every level who have worked on this case will continue to do everything we possibly can to recover little Caylee.

Speaking directly as a father, a day doesn`t pass where I wish the evidence we have gathered in this case didn`t add up to the painfully obvious. Sadly, I cannot change the facts surrounding this investigation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A Florida grand jury hands down a murder one charge today against tot mom Casey Anthony, also included other counts. They include a manslaughter charge regarding child abuse. Also lying to cops.

We are taking your calls live. To Deneen in Ohio, hi, Deneen.

DENEEN, OHIO RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

DENEEN: I was wondering about the strand of hair that was found in the trunk of the car.

GRACE: Yes.

DENEEN: Once they found out that -- or find a match to Caylee for DNA with the strand of hair, is there a test that can determine definitely that the dark band was caused due to death?

GRACE: Yes. There are tests to determine that. But the problem is going to be, and we`ll go to Lawrence Kobilinsky on that, famed forensic scientist.

Kobe, if there is not a nucleus on the hair, in other words, a root.

KOBILINSKY: Right.

GRACE: . will they be able to get DNA, or just mitochondrial DNA?

KOBILINSKY: That`s correct. You`re right on target, Nancy. Without a root, the best they can do is mitochondrial DNA. That genetic profile is not unique to anybody. Not.

GRACE: Really? Because they have been using it overseas.

KOBILINSKY: Yes.

GRACE: . with the Red Cross to identify bodies. The U.S. government has used mitochondrial DNA for decades.

KOBILINSKY: Yes.

GRACE: So now you`re telling me that the U.S. government`s use of mitochondrial DNA is in question?

KOBILINSKY: Oh, not at all. It`s just that it is not a unique.

GRACE: Really? Because that`s what it sounded like you were saying.

KOBILINSKY: No, no. Let me make it clear.

GRACE: Please.

KOBILINSKY: It is not a unique profile to an individual. There are other people who have the same mitochondrial genetic profile.

GRACE: Kobe, Kobe, isn`t it true that it`s either going to be the mother or the individual?

KOBILINSKY: Or any maternally related relative.

GRACE: OK.

KOBILINSKY: Even Lee has the same profile.

GRACE: So since the only other maternal relative is going -- could remotely be near that car trunk would be Cindy, Casey.

KOBILINSKY: Right.

GRACE: .or Caylee, and we know.

KOBILINSKY: Or Lee. Or Lee. Lee also has the same type.

GRACE: OK. Or Lee. I`ll give you that one.

KOBILINSKY: Right. And there are other.

GRACE: I`d like to finish.

KOBILINSKY: Sorry.

GRACE: That are even remotely associated with Casey Anthony`s car. We know there was a dark band on it, indicating the person is dead.

Let`s see, Casey Anthony, alive, Cindy Anthony, alive. Lee Anthony, alive. That only leaves Caylee, doesn`t it, Kobe?

KOBILINSKY: It`s very significant evidence. Number one, we have to prove whose hair it is. And number two, that it is hair that has that banding pattern as a result of decomposition. Yes. You`re right on target with that, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, you`re certainly earning your money, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, a famed forensic scientist out of John J. College, and he is on board the Casey Anthony defense team.

I want to go back to the lawyers, Ray Giudice and Doug Burns, but first, I want to find out, to Mark Williams, where is Casey Anthony tonight?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Casey Anthony is back in her old cell block, where she was before she separated from other prisoners at the Orange County Jail.

Of course, she was booked in there probably within the past hour or so. And that`s where she`ll be spending the night until tomorrow`s first appearance.

GRACE: Natisha, you -- Natisha Lance is with us, our producer, is joining us there at the jail. Explain to me the procedure she went through after she was pulled over on the side of the road and arrested today.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: After she was pulled over, Nancy, she was taken to the Orange County Sheriff`s Office. After that, she was brought to the jail where we are right now. She went into the Sally Port when she arrived here at the jail.

There were a few protesters here, as well as some supporters. And tonight she is behind bars, just as Mark William said.

GRACE: Does she have a cell mate? Is she in isolation? What wing is she on?

LANCE: At this point, it seems as if she will be in protective custody once again, as she was last time. So she will be isolated from any other inmates. And we are awaiting her booking photo to come out if it hasn`t already come out and we will see her at her initial appearance tomorrow morning.

GRACE: With me, everyone, exclusively joining us tonight, the attorney for George and Cindy Anthony, Mr. Mark Nejame. He is a veteran trial lawyer, and he is defending them in any capacity needed.

Mr. Nejame, do you believe that the family, George and Cindy Anthony, prepared themselves, mentally, emotionally, for this day? Or was it easier for them to believe this day was not going to happen?

MARK NEJAME, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: I think they were as well prepared as any parents could be, that their daughter may be indicted for first-degree murder. It`s something that none of us are prepared fully in life.

There`s no rule book or playbook on this. They knew that it was a probability. We must remember that an indictment is only a charge. A lot of people are talking like there`s already a conviction.

GRACE: It`s true.

NEJAME: There is a charge. And it simply means that there`s been probable cause. And now the state attorney`s office has to take this from start to finish.

GRACE: Well, Mr. Nejame, I know that many people believe, I and others, have been hard on tot mom Casey Anthony, but our sympathies are with the family.

I want to go to Richard Grund, the former fiance, tot mom. What is your family`s response to the indictment tonight, sir?

RICHARD GRUND, FATHER OF CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: It`s tough. Because we loved Casey, we still do. We love Caylee. You know, I`m just hoping that the seriousness of this will get the community to calm down and everybody to realize that we`re real people.

George and Cindy and Lee, they`re real people. They`re all real people, we`re all real people. And we hurt right now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Back to Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Nikki, there is talk that Baez may actually have to step down from taking the case to trial?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: There`s some talk about that, because, as I understand it, you have to have five years as an attorney at least to be able to defend this kind of a case.

We also hear that Casey Anthony may actually defend herself. This from Jose Baez`s PR firm, saying that she would have access to state funds to get her some investigators if she did so.

GRACE: You know, to Raymond Giudice, Doug Burns, I do not believe that any court in this country would allow a death penalty, Raymond, to go forward per se with council defending themselves.

GIUDICE: That`s right, Nancy. They don`t want to try the case.

GRACE: (INAUDIBLE) half.

GIUDICE: . twice.

GRACE: No, yes, appeal, reverse, back down.

GIUDICE: Right. Right back.

GRACE: And -- you`re dead on.

Doug Burns, as far as having to have a certain degree of experience at trial for a death penalty case, you`re darn right.

BURNS: Right. That`s to be lead counsel, Nancy. So what everybody is saying is that he`ll have to step aside as lead council. But he can continue to be on the case.

GRACE: Yes. He could be second chair.

BURNS: Right. Exactly.

GRACE: But to do a capital case, good lord, you got to have.

BURNS: Absolutely.

GRACE: . many, many trials under your belt and not just as a gofer. You`ve got to be lead council on those cases in order to go forward.

Everyone, recap. Mom Casey Anthony just indicted by a Florida grand jury. Charges, murder one, plus other counts. Tomorrow morning, 8:30 a.m. she is back in court. We will bring you the very latest.

But I want to stop and remember Marine Lance Corporal Jordan Haerter, just 19, Sag Harbor, New York, killed in Iraq. Lost his life at a checkpoint saving fellow troops and Iraqi officers.

Awarded the Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribbon, Iraqi Campaign Medal. Loved solo flights, paintball, driving a Dodge pickup on the beach. Favorite movie, "Blackhawk Down." Dreamed of being a cop.

Leaves behind parents, Christian and Joan, girlfriend, Nicole.

Jordan Haerter, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp eastern and until then, good night, friends.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/14/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Judge Denies Bond for Casey Anthony

Aired October 15, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 17 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Tot mom Casey Anthony in court on murder one charges after a Florida grand jury hands down a seven-count indictment -- murder one, aggravated child abuse, aggravated manslaughter, and of course, lying to police. The case does qualify for the Florida death penalty, death by needle, lethal injection. The district attorney yet to make that announcement. This amid reports new forensic evidence discovered in mom Casey`s car trunk. What is it?

Police using cell phone triangulation to narrow down the exact location mom Casey may have disposed of little Caylee. Even in the face of murder one charges, grandparents George and Cindy Anthony insisting little Caylee is alive, claiming mom Casey will save what really happened for the courtroom. They say they`ll go on with their own search for Caylee. And exclusive, the man mom Casey claimed introduced her to Zenaida Gonzalez, accused of kidnapping Caylee and then exonerated, is with us live, tonight. Where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back to jail for Casey. She faced a judge in Orlando this morning on first degree murder and other charges in the case of her 3-year-old daughter`s disappearance. It took the judge less than a minute to decide on her bond.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey was arrested shortly after yesterday`s grand jury indictment, and her father, George Anthony, testified against her before that panel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I don`t get it. As I`m walking, I just get back to where the passenger rear taillight is to her car, she throws open the trunk, she said, Here`s your F-ing cans. I got a little verbal...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She didn`t want you to go in the trunk.

GEORGE ANTHONY: She don`t want me going in the trunk of the car. I made a report to the Orange County sheriff`s department. Now you`ve got the chance. Why do you have them? Well, I`ve been driving back and forth to Tampa to see Zanny? And I`m, like, Wait a second. You`re supposed working, but now you`re in Tampa. This don`t make no sense to me. And I said, Listen, I`m not going to deal with this right now. But where`s Caylee? What`s going on? You know, I believe I need to know. I don`t like the smell in the car. I`m being straight with you guys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t like the smell?

GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m being straight and honest.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caylee Anthony disappeared in June, but she wasn`t reported missing until a month later. Originally, her mother told police she was taken by her nanny. Since then, she`s changed her story several times and none of them has panned out with authorities.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know stuff`s got to come out. That`s the way it is. I`m not going to hold back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, the tot mom in court just hours ago on charges of murder.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This morning, Casey Anthony made her first court appearance on murder charges. The mother of missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony did not enter a plea, and the judge refused bond during those proceedings, which took about a minute-and-a-half. She`s accused of killing her daughter, even though the little girl`s body hasn`t been found.

GEORGE ANTHONY: My granddaughter, Caylee Marie Anthony, who is age 3, is alive. I`m going to find her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even though George Anthony`s daughter, Casey, is now charged with killing her toddler, the grandfather believes Caylee will be back in his arms.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I would give my life right this second to have her be dropped off in front of all of us. I would do that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just yesterday, George testified under oath before a grand jury, the same grand jury that indicted his daughter for murder. But he does not believe his courtroom testimony hurt Casey, saying criminal charges were inevitable.

GEORGE ANTHONY: A few weeks ago, almost day one or day two, we knew what was going to happen. I mean, that`s pretty self-evident.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Despite testifying against her, George asserts that Casey is a good mother who would never harm her child.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m going to stand alongside my daughter, no matter what.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And George says he`s clinging to hope that Caylee is OK.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I still believe in my heart, and everything that we`re still getting tips and things like that, that my granddaughter is still out there, and she is alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These people that are out there that we feel might have been involved in something -- and again, that`s speculation on my part. Yes, they`re being watched. They might not -- they`re being watched.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tot mom Casey Anthony in court just hours ago, answering up on felony charges handed down by a secret grand jury, multiple counts, including murder one. That murder charge not outlining the mode of murder. Police yet to discover the remains of little Caylee.

Let`s go straight out to Mark Williams at WNDB Newsradio. Mark, what`s the latest? What happened in court?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSRADIO 1150: Well, it was a cut and dried thing, 30 seconds in the courtroom. Basically, Casey Anthony, along with Jose Baez, her attorney, appeared before a judge. All of a sudden, they -- the judge asked her, Are you Casey Anthony? She replied, Yes. He read the charges against her. He said the capital murder charge is non-bailable. And she did not make any plea, and she was hustled back to her jail cell, which is only 12.5 by 8 by 7 feet.

GRACE: OK. Yes or no, mark Williams. Did the defense attorney file a motion for speedy trial out loud in court today?

WILLIAMS: Not that we know of. It was a very, very, very quick session, like I said, only 30 seconds or so.

GRACE: Well, we would have known if he said that in court today? Wasn`t the courtroom open? Was there a motion filed orally in court, to your knowledge?

WILLIAMS: Most of us saw it on video that`s supplied by the Orange County judicial system here.

GRACE: Yes, no. Is there a motion for speedy trial? Did you hear Baez make the motion?

WILLIAMS: I did not hear Baez make that motion.

GRACE: OK. To Nikki Pierce, WDBO. Did you hear him make the motion?

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: No, I did not hear him make the motion for a speedy trial.

GRACE: OK, Natisha Lance, our producer, standing by at the jail. Do we know that such a motion has been filed?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: No, he did not make any motion this morning out loud in court.

GRACE: OK. Well, that really beats all. Let`s unleash the lawyers. We are taking your calls live. Joining us tonight out of New York, child advocate Susan Moss, defense attorney out of Atlanta Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka, veteran trial lawyer also joining us out of New York. Susan Moss, weigh in.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Between the hair and the air, this woman could get the chair. I mean, there`s some real evidence in this case the defense team is going to have a hard time refuting. There was hair found in the trunk of her car. That hair allegedly has bands that would show the decomposition due to death. There is air evidence from the body farm in Tennessee. There is some real evidence that there was a death, and that`s probably Caylee.

GRACE: To defense attorneys Renee Rockwell and Alan Ripka. Renee, I`ve been hearing on and on, second verse, same as the first, over and over and over, We`ll take this to trial, we`ll put the state to the test. Where`s the motion for speedy trial? I heard Baez stating in a press conference, We want a quick trial. Where`s the motion? You don`t even have to write it down. You can stand in open court in practically every jurisdiction of this country and say, I demand under the Constitution a demand for speedy trial, right now. I want my trial within six months. Put up or shut up. Didn`t happen. Why?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It didn`t happen, Nancy. I don`t think he needs to commit now. But I think he is probably waiting to see if this is going to be a death penalty case strategy, Nancy.

GRACE: OK. In my mind, Alan Ripka, that would make it even more necessary to file the demand right now.

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree. First of all, he`s got to protect his client, and he should have did it right then and then to start the clock ticking. Furthermore, let`s hope this guy Baez can handle this kind of case. You need experience in capital murder cases, and he may not be the right one for the job.

GRACE: You know, speaking of, it`s my understanding -- back out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newsradio 1150. Mark, he did file today a notice of appearance, which says to me he`s going forward as a trial lawyer on this case.

WILLIAMS: Yes, he is. He is going forward with it. They have, like, 180, 190 days to get the trial under way. But here`s the big deal, is that he is not qualified, according to Florida judicial law, to try this case in court. He has only been an attorney for the past three years, and this is not -- he`s got -- he`s never served as co-counsel in a -- in a case.

GRACE: So Mark Williams, when you say has been practicing law for three years, what has he been doing? What is his trial experience?

WILLIAMS: Well, just this past April, he defended a gentleman in Lake County, which is just outside of Orlando, on a murder charge. He -- the gentleman was eventually convicted, so he lost that case. Also...

GRACE: Well, was he lead counsel? Was he first chair?

WILLIAMS: I couldn`t tell you that, Nancy, because I was not that familiar with the case. But he has had some success. A Kissimmee mayor by the name of George Gant (ph), who`s a doctor, was accused of some, how shall we say this, funny business with some patients. He was exonerated in that. And then he also in 2006...

GRACE: Did he -- hey, Mark, Mark, Mark, did Baez take that to a jury trial?

WILLIAMS: I think that was settled right out of court.

GRACE: OK. Settlement. I`m not impressed. I want to find out how many trials this guy has had because I`m telling you -- I`m not saying he`s a bad lawyer. I`m not saying that at all. Not at all. But I am saying there`s a very big difference, Mark Williams, in settling a case and striking a jury and going to trial on a death penalty case. In fact, Mark Williams, it is such a vast difference that the law in most jurisdictions requires the lawyer to have quite a bit of litigation, courtroom litigation. I`m not talking about depositions, and -- and filling out forms, courtroom experience. You`ve got somebody`s life in your hands.

Speaking of a life in your hands, to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California, who first put up the bond for mom Casey Anthony. We understand there may be new blockbuster evidence found related to the car in a plastic bag?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, I think -- I think what they`ve got is, they`ve got the bag that the gentleman at the yard threw over the fence, and then one of the detectives, God bless him, went over there that night and retrieved the bag. And they have found body evidence on the outside of the bag, which had pizza leftovers on the inside. And on the outside, there was maggots. And I think your Dr. Kobilinsky would tell you that maggots would not -- I don`t believe feed on pizza. But on the outside of the bag, there were maggots.

GRACE: Do we know anything about fluids from a body, Leonard?

PADILLA: Yes, there were body fluids on the outside of the bag, yes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understand that there is an election going on. And I understand that those days are numbered. And I understand that Casey Anthony is public enemy number one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: From day one, you guys were building a case against Casey as a murderer. She is not a murderer.



CINDY ANTHONY: I want to bring her in. I want to press charges.



CINDY ANTHONY: One thing I know is she loves that child.

I feel that my daughter from day one has gotten, you know -- she has been a victim just as much as Caylee has.

I lost my granddaughter. I don`t even care where Casey was at. I still don`t care where Casey`s at. All I want is Caylee back. Do you understand that?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live today. Tot mom Casey Anthony in court just hours ago, answering up on formal grand jury charges, including murder one. That murder count does not explain the state`s theory as to how little Caylee died. As searches resume in the Orlando area, we are waiting to find out whether blockbuster evidence has surfaced, allegedly coming out of the car trunk of mom Casey Anthony.

Very quickly, back to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California. You state that you have learned that bodily fluids may be on the back of a plastic bag found in the trunk.

PADILLA: That`s correct. The pizza was purchased the AM of the 19th. And instead of being dumped in the dumpster the following day, it was placed in the trunk of the car. The speculation is, it was placed there to mask what was already starting to be an odor in the trunk of the car. So that`s the speculation. But there was definitely body fluids on the outside of the bag.

GRACE: To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He is a paid member of the defense team for tot mom Casey Anthony. Lawrence Kobilinsky, if bodily fluids were found in the trunk, that should be able to be connected to the deceased.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, you know, finding bodily -- what we do in serology is we first identify what the fluid is, and then we determine its origin, which involves DNA testing. So the first step is, How do you determine if it is truly bodily fluids or not? I think that`s an issue. As far as blowflies laying eggs, I don`t think you`re going to develop maggots that quickly.

GRACE: I`m asking you only about the fluid. That`s all I`m asking you.

KOBILINSKY: Again, I think finding the amino acids...

GRACE: Koby (ph), you know, I`m very surprised because since you`ve been hired to be the defense consultant on this case, you -- your whole theories regarding forensics have changed.

KOBILINSKY: Oh, not at all. Absolutely not.

GRACE: You know very well, as I do, that when a body begins to decompose, the body emits fluids and those fluids will have DNA in them.

KOBILINSKY: That is correct. And animals will decompose. They will secrete fluids...

GRACE: What are you talking about? Animals? I`m asking you a point- blank question.

KOBILINSKY: Yes.

GRACE: If a body is decomposing and there are bodily fluids, they should be able to be traced through DNA. That`s a yes/no answer.

KOBILINSKY: It depends how degraded the DNA is.

GRACE: OK. You know, you`re going off into animals and degradation and blowflies. You know what? I`ll be right back with you.

Out to the lines. June in Florida. Hi, June.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Jose Baez, in his news conference on Monday, he said with Casey right by his side how upset she was about her missing child. This woman has cried twice, the first time when she went to jail, and on Monday, when she knew she was going back to jail. I lost my son, and all I did was cry and cry and just totally lost it.

GRACE: You know, June in Florida, for those of us that have been crime victims and/or lost someone very dear to us, this lack of emotion has been unfathomable. What about it Caryn Stark -- Dr. Stark joining us out of New York, psychologist, go ahead.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Nancy, the truth of the matter is, everyone keeps looking at her as a mother, and she is much more of a monster. This is what a sociopathic person is like. She cannot feel empathy. That is not in her nature. She doesn`t have the ability, so how could she possibly cry? She can party because she can ignore what`s going on.

GRACE: Let`s go to our special guest joining us tonight. Jeff Hopkins is with us. And according to mom Casey Anthony, Hopkins introduced her to Zenaida Gonzalez, the nanny that stole her child. Mr. Hopkins, thank you for being with us.

JEFF HOPKINS, ALLEGEDLY INTRODUCED CASEY TO BABY-SITTER ZENAIDA: Thank you. Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: Mr. Hopkins, what did you think when you learned that somehow you had gotten into the middle of a murder investigation?

HOPKINS: Well, my initial reaction there was definitely shock. I still had no clue what was going on until, of course, a few days later, when a detective showed up at my house.

GRACE: When did you first learn you had gotten involved?

HOPKINS: I assume it was the night that Cindy Anthony had called 911 because when the cops were at their house, I received a phone call from Lee Anthony, her brother, telling me that Casey said that she had been missing -- or Caylee had been missing for about 30 days. And she said that she had taken a trip or went on a trip to Jacksonville with Jeff Hopkins. And I, you know, informed them that maybe there was a different one at the time, you know, because it wasn`t me for sure.

GRACE: So that wasn`t you in the car with Casey Anthony?

HOPKINS: No.

GRACE: Did you ever know her? Did you guys work at the same place?

HOPKINS: Well, I did work at Universal. I didn`t work there after the year 2002. I`m not sure when she started, and I know she ended in around 2006. But we never did work together, actually.

GRACE: Did you ever know each other?

HOPKINS: We did know each other.

GRACE: How?

HOPKINS: We actually -- through elementary, middle and high school. We went to the same school here.

GRACE: So you did not know her through Universal? You knew her through going to school with her?

HOPKINS: Through going to school, yes.

GRACE: Did you ever know Zenaida Gonzalez?

HOPKINS: No, I don`t know who that is.

GRACE: Did Zenaida Gonzalez ever baby-sit your children?

HOPKINS: I have no children, Nancy.

GRACE: So her story becomes more and more fantastic. Do you expect that you will be a witness at trial?

HOPKINS: Yes.

GRACE: Why do you think that?

HOPKINS: Because I was told so by the detective.

GRACE: Long story short, after your ordeal with the justice system, what do you believe about little Caylee? Where is she?

HOPKINS: I have no idea where she is. And as far as, you know...

GRACE: When was the last time you actually spoke to Casey Anthony?

HOPKINS: July. I saw her at the Ale House.

GRACE: Everyone, we`ll all be right back. But as we go to break, it is National Breast Cancer Awareness Month. Tonight, the Woman`s Personal Health Resource. It was founded nine years by an oncology nurse, Barbara, whose mom battled cancer and struggled with finding wigs and everything else she needed during her plight. The Woman`s Personal Resource provides products to help breast cancer patients -- skin care, scarves, turbans, exercise wear, lounge wear, swimsuits, all for mastectomy, lumpectomy, even recent surgery patients. If this battle touches your life, go to Womanspersonalhealth.com, or CNN.com/nancygrace. Together, we can win this battle.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl! I need to find her.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to remind everyone that we have not achieved our primary objective in this investigation. We have not recovered little Caylee Anthony.

TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Caylee`s little body needs to be found. This search will be larger than any search I feel we have ever done in history.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Right now, mom Casey Anthony behind bars on murder one charges. Today she was in court, answering up on the grand jury indictment just handed down yesterday.

Back to Natisha Lance, standing by at the Orlando, Florida jail. Tell me about her jail cell and her day today.

LANCE: Her jail cell, Nancy, is an 8 by 10-foot cell. It has plexiglass on one side. All the other walls are concrete, so she doesn`t have too much privacy. She has a toilet. She`s in protective custody once again, just as before. Her day today very limited. She gets one hour of free time to do whatever she wants. And in that hour of time, she is able to use -- take a shower or go into the commissary.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: This is going to be very hard for me to do.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: George testified under oath before a grand jury, the same grand jury that indicted his daughter for murder.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: State attorney, Lawson Lamar, was able to convince at least 12 of the 19 jurors that the 22-year-old mother should be charged with capital murder for allegedly killing her 3-year-old daughter, Caylee.

MARK NEJAME, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: George answered all questions directly and honestly, and just did what, I think, no human being could ever be prepared to do.

G. ANTHONY: My focus is always on my granddaughter, and it always will be. No matter what has been brought against my daughter at the moment, my granddaughter is still out there.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Casey Anthony, set to be the 17th woman in Florida history against whom the state seeks the death penalty. The state has not made that announcement at this point.

The D.A. has some time to do that, but after screaming about wanting justice in court, Baez, the defense attorney, failed to ask for a motion for speedy trial today. That would ensure that the state had to take this case to trial in just a few months. No building the case over time.

To Bill Majeski, former NYPD detective with Majeski Associates -- Bill, a speedy trial demand can really throw the wrench in the works for the state. If they were planning on developing the evidence some more, oh no, there won`t be any of that. They`ve got to go straight to trial.

BILL MAJESKI, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE MAJESKI ASSOCIATE, INC.: Well, this is true, but the thing is, I think the police did an outstanding job on this investigation. They kept a lot of things close to the vest, they had a lot of information very early on, and what they did is they slowly built their case until they were able to go into court and get a sound, solid indictment.

Now from this juncture forward, what the police have to do is they have to refortify the investigation that they`ve already done, and clearly at the top of their list is finding the body. And I think that they`ll eventually do that.

And one of the things -- another thing about the -- not asking for a speedy trial. It`s a good possibility that the defense attorney may be looking to make some kind of a deal to try to take the death penalty off the table.

GRACE: Wise, although the state has not announced for the death penalty.

As we were discussing earlier -- out to Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka -- so far in the entire Florida history, only 16 women have had the death penalty sought against them.

Alan Ripka, what`s the likelihood that that will happen in this case?

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, in this particular case, I think the likelihood is very high. I think that a case that has had so much media attention, and when you`re dealing with a little girl in this particular case, I think the state is going to be pressured to go after her, because the public does not like her very much.

GRACE: What about it, Renee?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I will agree with that. But I will say one thing. If the state is seeking the death penalty, they`re going to have a lot harder time getting a conviction, Nancy.

GRACE: Renee, I`m sure you`re familiar with the proceedings of a death penalty. And as you know, it`s a bifurcated trial. There is a two- prong trial, which the jury will understand.

There`s the guilt/innocence phase and then if there is a guilty on murder one, with circumstances, then the state proceeds to a death penalty phase. They will have it explained to them that they can find guilty without the death penalty.

But I understand what you`re saying, when death penalty is on the table, all the stakes go up.

Susan Moss, weigh in.

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: The people of the state of Florida are outraged. They were outraged when this mother waited 31 days to report missing. And she only reported missing.

GRACE: Well, you heard Ripka blaming it on the media, right?

MOSS: Oh, come on! This was all, all Casey from day one.

GRACE: You know, I noticed, Mark Williams, in court today, there was a completely different attire, a whole look. Mom Casey Anthony looked like a paralegal.

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Yes. And that started almost yesterday, when she was arrested. She had glasses on, and she had a nice blouse on when she was put in handcuffs. And, yes, she looked like a scholarly individual, right off the bat.

GRACE: So she`s getting a makeover. You know what? Fine. Everybody gets a makeover when they have to go to court. We also learn the truth behind that Mickey Mouse dress from Disney World we thought may be a lead in the case that was discovered by Texas Equusearch.

What is the truth behind that, Nikki Pierce?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Well, Cindy Anthony appeared on national television this morning and brought Caylee`s dress that was similar to the one that was found and said this is Caylee`s dress. The other one does not belong to Caylee.

GRACE: There is Miss Anthony on the "Today" show. She is holding up little Caylee`s Mickey Mouse dress, so clearly the one that was discovered, a child size 6, is not going to be a lead in this case.

Straight back out to Mark Williams, the theory of new evidence, where are we learning that? Why do we believe that there is new forensic evidence out of the car trunk?

WILLIAMS: Well, apparently the CSI -- the crime scene investigators found this bag, and it apparently contains the bodily fluids of little Caylee, and it was initially found, of course, or was probably in the back end of -- in the trunk area of Casey`s car.

GRACE: To Gina in North Carolina, hi, Gina.

GINA, NORTH CAROLINA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

GINA: OK, I do have a comment first and then a question.

GRACE: OK.

GINA: My comment is that if we just gave her the benefit of the doubt for one second.

GRACE: OK.

GINA: The child has not been kidnapped, there has been no ran some demand. It`s -- and I think that if anybody in the whole United States, Florida, wherever, did have this baby, with everything going on here, they would have turned that baby in. Nobody would keep that baby with all of this going on.

And my question is, does anybody think that possibly she may have confided in Lee after she got out of jail? He seems to be, you know, very quiet these days, you know, in the back ground.

GRACE: That`s an excellent question, Gina in North Carolina.

Leonard Padilla, what about it? You have seen the family dynamic.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: Yes, absolutely, and I`m telling you -- let me throw something in here, you know, talking about the gentleman, Hopkins.

One night, when I was in the residence, and I was talking about this Hopkins having introduced Zenaida to her. Cindy and Lee both jointly and at about the same time said, "oh, that`s another Hopkins. He`s got a boy named Zack."

And the reason this stuck in my mind is because I have a nephew named Zack. And I thought, well, that`s rather strange. All of a sudden we have two Hopkins, same age at the same time involved in the same situation.

I thought that was ludicrous but at the time they just damn near convinced me that there was two Hopkins. And it was Lee and Cindy, and they knew at that time that there was not two Hopkins.

GRACE: You are seeing shots of little Caylee. The Anthonys insisting she is still alive. And they will continue their search for her.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEREDITH VIEIRA, "TODAY" SHOW HOST: Have you considered the possibility, as difficult as it may be, that your daughter killed her child? Your grandchild?

CINDY ANTHONY, CINDY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: You know, Meredith, I know my daughter, I know my daughter`s relationship with Caylee, and I know that there is no -- nothing in this world that could make me believe that Casey did anything to Caylee.

There has never been any -- any child neglect, child abuse, or anything. This young lady loves her child more than I love Casey. I tell you that right now. And my love for Casey is stronger every day. My love for my granddaughter is stronger every day. And I know that Caylee is alive.

It will be heard out in the courtroom, and people will understand why her behaviors were such, and that`s all I can say right now.

I know that, you know, in my heart that we are going to find Caylee before this trial does make place. And we are hoping for a speedy trial, because yesterday, people were unable to hear the evidence that we have that proves that, you know, the -- just how circumstantial evidence.

The reason -- there`s reasons why there has been no body been found. You know there`s reports that Caylee`s dress was found at the airport. This is Caylee`s dress that was in her closet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is Miss Anthony on NBC`s "Today" show. They are insisting little Caylee is still alive, claiming that she may be in Puerto Rico, Texas, North Carolina, Georgia, and let me think where else? Also there in Florida.

To Mark Williams with WNDB, on the "Today" show, she referred to evidence that little Caylee is still alive. What evidence is that?

WILLIAMS: She gets -- apparently, the Anthonys still get tips from outsiders and with the Caylee sightings and everything else, you`ve documented that just a couple minutes ago.

She`s even gone on Univision Television here in Orlando, looking for Caylee in Puerto Rico, putting a -- putting the word out, reaching out in that island nation down there, to try and find little Caylee.

But they get these tips, they say, and she says, they`re going to investigate them.

GRACE: I wish they were sharing those tips with the media.

Everyone, quickly, we`re taking your calls live.

To case alert, the search for a missing Michigan woman who`s vanished into thin air. 41-year-old Vernetta Macklin-Jordan last seen September 18th, boarding a bus on the Linwood route, Detroit. Since then, her husband, son, entire family cannot contact her.

Please, take a look at this lovely lady. Her family is waiting. If you have information, call Detroit police, 313-596-2200.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: Don`t paint a bad picture of this family. Emotions just take over sometimes. You believe your child, you put faith in them and everything, you know?

I wouldn`t wish this on anyone. This is a tough day for us today. Think about wanting to turn your own child in for whatever it might be. It`s hard. It`s quiet. The house is just too quiet.

Whenever these sightings come through and photos are taken of a child that could possibly be my granddaughter, I get excited and my hopes are up there. And if it`s not, they get to (INAUDIBLE) a little bit.

My focus is always on my granddaughter and always will be. I love my daughter, I love my wife, I love my son.

I would give my life right this second to have her be dropped off in front of all of us. I would do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, mom Casey Anthony behind bars tonight for her second night behind bars after being charged by a grand jury in felony charges. Murder one being the lead charge. The state carefully not outlining the mode of death alleged in little Caylee Anthony`s death.

To Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka, Susan Moss -- Susan Moss, is that unusual for the state not to lay out in the indictment the manner of death?

MOSS: It -- isn`t unusual. As long as they meet a particular level of burden of proof, which is not beyond a reasonable doubt, then they have done their job. Their job only is to get that indictment which they were successful doing.

GRACE: Well, to Renee and Alan -- first to you, Alan, I don`t find it unusual at all, because when a body has been destroyed, very often, you don`t know the cause of death. The state doesn`t necessarily have to prove the cause of death.

RIPKA: That`s right, Nancy. In fact, they can use circumstantial evidence, they may have an admission from a defendant, witnesses, things like that, that may help them out. But it`s not an element of the crime to prove exactly how somebody was murdered.

GRACE: Renee, agree or disagree?

ROCKWELL: I agree with that. But the thing that I do find interesting -- and I`m looking at the indictment -- that the state set out a 31-day period within which they say that she committed a pre-meditated murder.

GRACE: Right.

ROCKWELL: It`s just going to be interesting to me, Nancy, how it lays out. It`s still a little early for us to discuss.

GRACE: Well, Renee, again, that is not unusual. I have tried, myself, many, many cases, particularly cases involving children that do not go by calendar days, the way you and I do, where you give a time range as to the time of the offense. That`s not unusual at all.

Why do you say that`s unusual?

ROCKWELL: Well, it`s unusual because at some point they`re going to have to put it up and say, this is our theory, this is what she did.

GRACE: But they don`t ever have to prove a specific date. That`s not required under law.

ROCKWELL: But they`re going to have to say that she did something on some particular day. And that`s my theory.

GRACE: No. They do not have to state a particular day.

ROCKWELL: Nancy, when they go to trial, and try her for potentially the death penalty, they are going to have to have some theories.

GRACE: They do not have to name a particular day. That is not the law.

ROCKWELL: I`m not talking the day.

GRACE: Alan Ripka, agree -- that`s what we`re talking about, the day.

ROCKWELL: OK.

RIPKA: Nancy, I agree with you. They do not have to name a date. In fact, in this particular case, they were well aware of when they believed the child was killed.

GRACE: They are.

RIPKA: In fact, they want a period of time and that`s why they set out what they did and that`s what they intend to prove. But I agree with you, they do not have to give a particular date and time.

GRACE: But in a sense, Susan Moss, I agree with the gist, not the technicalities, of what Rockwell is saying. The gist is, when you go to a jury, you better have a theory, a definite theory, about what you believe happened.

ROCKWELL: You can`t just say the child died.

GRACE: Susan?

MOSS: Absolutely. The jury wants to hear a theory, they want to hear a story, and they want to understand why and when this happened. You don`t have to point to a particular day and time, but you have to make it reasonable and believable.

GRACE: We also learned that the possibility of a get-away attempt yesterday was not correct. In fact, seemingly -- tell me if I`m right, Nikki Piece with WDBO -- Cindy and Kelly Anthony were actually just trying to avoid being photographed or videoed turning themselves in?

PIERCE: As I understand.

GRACE: Turn in?

PIERCE: Yes, I understand there was a bit of a chase between local news outlet and Casey and Cindy in Cindy`s car. And so they pulled a little bit of a switcharoo and put her in the bail bondsman`s car under an overpass and a no-fly zone.

GRACE: Well, you know what?

PIERCE: . so the helicopters couldn`t see.

GRACE: What that got them was the allegations that they were trying a get-away attempt. That didn`t help anything.

We are taking your calls, to Theresa in Colorado. Hi, Theresa.

THERESA, COLORADO RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. My question is, on a positive note, and there doesn`t seem to be many, if someone had little Caylee, could they drop her off at any fire station and avoid prosecution? Even in Puerto Rico?

GRACE: That`s a toughie. What about it, Susan Moss?

MOSS: No. This is not a safe-haven type of scenario. But they should do it, anyway. I mean, everyone, if there is a chance of this little girl is alive, everyone wants to see her safe.

GRACE: To Dr. Caryn Stark, psychologist joining us out of New York, the caller was correct. The only times we have ever seen any seen any emotion whatsoever from tot mom Casey Anthony is when she was in court getting a dressing down by about being a neglectful mom, and when the grand jury is meeting, at that moment, to indict her on murder one.

What does that say to you? This has been going on for months now.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s the narcissistic part of her personality, Nancy. Anybody who was just like this woman will not be crying over her daughter. She`s crying over herself. So you will see her in court starting to be upset because she`s going to be in trouble.

GRACE: To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of John J. College, criminal justice, and a paid member of the Casey Anthony defense team, what will your role be?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Well, I think I`m there to help the defense with the analysis of the science to advice.

GRACE: When will you see the evidence?

KOBILINSKY: Well, I -- that`s not clear at this point. But I certainly will be there to look at all the different types of science and determine whether it is valid and reliable.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: I wish this person or persons who had her would call up and say, CNN, I have this little girl. I believe she`s the little girl who`s missing from Orlando, Florida.

Do you know what kind of story that would be?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Mom Casey Anthony in court today.

Back to Natisha Lance standing by at the jail in Orlando, what was the purpose of her being in court this morning?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, it was her initial appearance, Nancy. So that was the time where hen she would be read the charges that against her and she would be able to reply if she understood these charges or not.

GRACE: And she said?

LANCE: She said yes.

GRACE: Were -- was each charge read out loud?

LANCE: Yes, they were.

GRACE: All seven of them?

LANCE: All seven charges were read out loud.

GRACE: Who read them? Who read them?

LANCE: The judge presiding over the case read them. Casey actually appeared from the jail here. They did not transport her to the court. She appeared over video appearance with her attorney as well as an associate of her attorney who has not been named at this time.

But as they left the courtroom, they did not have anything to say.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army First Lieutenant Thomas Brown, 26, Burke, Virginia, killed in Iraq. Awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart, and Combat Infantry badge.

A George Mason University grad. Dreamed of making a difference. And the family trip to the Caribbean. He told relatives, if he lost his life, he wanted donations to go to St. Jude`s Children`s Hospital instead of family.

Love the Red Sox, rescuing animals. His latest, a cat named Batman. Leaves behind grieving mom Carol, twin the brother Timothy, a Border Patrol agent.

Thomas Brown, American hero.

I want to thank you to all our guests, but especially to you for being with us. And a big thanks to my old court reporter Donna Keeble who saw our show and has donated money to Texas Equusearch and their search for little Caylee.

I hope others join her.

I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/15/ng.01.html



Video of Jeff http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2008/10/16/ng.casey.speaks.cnn

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Casey Anthony Murder Case Developments

Aired October 16, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 17 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell. The tot mom defense spokesperson goes on national TV and refers to little Caylee`s death. Translation? Even the defense mouthpiece slips up and announces 3-year-old Caylee is dead. This while mom Casey Anthony and grandparents George and Cindy insist little Caylee was kidnapped and is still alive. The defense now, as usual, blaming the media.

Mom Casey facing formal charges, including murder one. Without a body, prosecutors building a case against tot mom Casey with state-of-the- art forensics and reams of mom Casey`s lies, but will it stick? The DA yet to announce if the Florida death penalty will be sought. Mom Casey Anthony in protective custody behind bars tonight. The judge orders forensic testing will go forward, squashing the defense demand that all testing stop immediately, as Texas Equusearch pulls out of Orlando after no cooperation with the Anthony family. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony, the mother of missing toddler Caylee Anthony, is facing first-degree murder charges in the disappearance and presumed death of her little girl, Caylee. Todd Black, the spokesman for Casey`s attorney, Jose Baez, and his firm had made mention of little Caylee and he said in there that we`re dealing with the loss of a life of a little girl. And here`s what he has to say concerning that very comment, releasing a statement to us, saying that remark is being taken out of context. Our position remains clear that Caylee is still alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe Caylee is alive, and we`re actively looking for her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: Why are you calling now? Why didn`t you call 31 days ago?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I have been looking for her and have gone through other resources to try to find her, which is stupid.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: You`re not telling me where she`s at.

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I don`t (DELETED) know where she`s at! Are you kidding me?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Marie Anthony is charged with first-degree murder of the death of her child. So for him to say that this case is about the death of a child or what will happen to Casey isn`t exactly an inaccurate statement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, Vegas police on high alert, a 6-year-old little boy in extreme danger, kidnapped at gunpoint from his own home, his family found bound and left behind.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An Amber Alert has been issued for 6-year-old Cole Puffinburger, who was kidnapped at gunpoint. Police say three male suspects came to the boy`s home in the early morning Wednesday and got in by posing as police officers. That`s when police say they tied and gagged Cole`s mother and the mother`s friend and began searching the apartment for money. When there was no money to be found, the suspects kidnapped little Cole. Police are desperate to find Cole and are concerned for his safety.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As soon as the Amber Alert went out and as soon as this photograph was received at the center, we did a 90-mile radius of every motel, hotel, truck stop, trucking company, everybody that`s dispatched by computer, like trucking companies, mass transit kind of thing. That child`s photo was given to all of them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities in southern California, New Mexico and Arizona have all been alerted to the kidnapping, with some suggestion the kidnappers may take the child to Mexico.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: We hear Cindy all the time now. Even still, just days ago and just yesterday, you know, still -- sounds like she`s still drinking the Casey Kool-Aid. But I think George has finally said, you know, Enough is enough here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a very serious case involving not just the loss of the life of this little girl but the loss of whatever`s going happen with Casey Anthony. And for a gentleman to sit on a show, on a national show, and make a remark like Caylee -- what did he call it, cocktail, or whatever he said, the Kool-Aid, Casey Kool-Aid -- I mean, making fun of something like this isn`t what anybody should be doing, especially if they`re professionals.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had a chance to review the interview given by Todd Black. In doing so, I`ve come to the conclusion that, one, it was taken out of context. What happened in that interview was there were jokes being made about this case. I don`t see how anyone could be joking about a case of a missing child or a case of first-degree murder, and that is what I believe he was referring to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s gone so far downhill and it`s become such a mess, we need to end it. It`s very simple. We just need to end it.

CASEY ANTHONY: I agree with you. I have no clue where she is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure you do.

CASEY ANTHONY: If I knew in any sense where she was, this wouldn`t have happened at all.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I still believe in my heart and everything that we`re still getting tips and things like that, that my granddaughter`s still out there and she`s alive. No matter what has been portrayed or no matter what has been brought against my daughter at the moment, my granddaughter is still out there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Mark Williams of WNDB news talk 1150. Mark, I`ve watched the clip several times. I don`t think that anyone was being jocular. No one was making light of the situation at all.

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSRADIO 1150: Well, the deal is, it has just erupted into a media firestorm today, Nancy. This took place on Tuesday night on CNN Headline News, when Mr. Black made mention -- and we`re quoting -- "a loss of life" of this little girl. Then Mr. Black was heard hesitating ever so slightly, then trying to backtrack on his statement.

It was an exchange with a guest that we have on this show, Mike Brooks. But this afternoon, Jose Baez, the defense attorney, holding a news conference, saying yes, he was taken out of context and that Mr. Black is not a lawyer.

GRACE: Joining me right now, former fed with the FBI -- apparently, you started the whole thing, Mike Brooks. But I think it`s very significant, when the defense`s own team, who is saying the little girl is alive, be it in Texas, Puerto Rico, North Carolina, Florida, wherever, to come out and talk about, quote, "the loss of Caylee`s life."

BROOKS: Absolutely, Nancy. And there was nothing at all taken out of context. And they said, you know, what I was saying was a joke. This was earlier in "Prime News." You know, I`m CNN`s law enforcement analyst, and I`m very, very serious about this case and I`m sickened by this case. And what I said, that Cindy Anthony was -- still continued to drink the Casey Kool-Aid, I was implying that she`s still believing what her daughter is telling her, despite the mounds of evidence against her.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live right now. Tot mom Casey Anthony has been moved to protective custody behind bars. Specifically, what does that mean, Brooks, protective custody?

BROOKS: It means that she`s by herself. She`s in a cell all by herself, doesn`t have any contact with any of the other inmates in the facility. You know, there`s a possibility that they believe that she could be in some danger because there kind of might have been threats. That`s why they put them in protective custody. And it`s a very, very high level of security.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer, standing by there at the Orlando jail. Explain to me what her living conditions are.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: It`s a 12-and-a-half by seven (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: Natisha, could you speak up? Natisha, I can`t hear you . Speak up, please.

LANCE: Yes, absolutely. She`s in a 12-and-a-half by 7-foot cell. She has a desk and a stool in her cell also. She has a bed. She has a sink. She has a toilet. Also, she has one hour a day where she can go take a shower. She can sit in the day room. Also, she has one hour a day where she could possibly go to the recreational area. She can also check out books from the library. And previously, when she has been incarcerated, they have said that she was a very ferocious (SIC) reader.

GRACE: And has she had any visitors, Natisha?

LANCE: She did. She had a visit last night from her attorney, Jose Baez. However, there have not been any visits that have been scheduled by her family for any type of video visitations, at this point.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers -- Susan Moss, child advocate, Peter Odom, defense attorney out of Atlanta, Michael Mazzariello, defense attorney and host of "Closing Arguments" on WGNY.

You know, Peter, you`re in a lot of trouble when your own spokesperson says the victim is dead.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, he went off the party line, Nancy, and it`s a very difficult party line to stick to. No reasonable person really believes that this child is alive at this point, and he just forgot. And really, the problem is that they probably shouldn`t be trying to play this in the media anymore. It`s over.

GRACE: You know, now is the time for complete silence on both sides, not as if the prosecution has made any public statements anyway. To Susan Moss, what about it?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: The science is going to prove whether this child is alive or dead. And let me tell you something. If Caylee`s fluid is found in her trunk, the defense`s efforts for acquittal is sunk. This is a case about science. I think the science is going to show that it was her hair in the trunk, it`s her fluid on the bag that was found in the trunk, and it was her decomposing body that was found in the air in her car.

GRACE: And here`s the thing. To Michael Mazzariello. Michael, even though the defense spokesperson has said on national TV, on this network, that little Caylee is dead -- he refers to her "loss of life" -- the jury will never hear about that, will they.

MICHAEL MAZZARIELLO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, they won`t. And it`s a classic example, Nancy, as you know -- loose lips sink ships. I mean, the defense attorney`s got to button up everybody, tell everyone to be quiet.

GRACE: Yes. My question is, will it come into evidence?

MAZZARIELLO: No, absolutely not.

GRACE: Why?

MAZZARIELLO: Because it`s not admissible. It has nothing to do with the case, no bearing to the case.

GRACE: Susan, why won`t it come into evidence?

MOSS: Well, unfortunately, it`s not a party admission and -- unless he can be shown to be a direct agent of her, but even then, it`s going to be a close call, and I don`t think the judge is going to take that risk.

GRACE: Well, obviously, Peter Odom, it`s based on hearsay. The spokesperson doesn`t know by firsthand account. He did not see, hear, taste, touch or smell anything to convince him little Caylee is dead. That is direct evidence. Hearsay would be based on someone telling you that. That`s why it`s not going to come into evidence. Unless the spokesperson knows himself that she is dead, the jury will never know that the defense essentially blurted out the victim is dead. I mean, their whole premise is, She`s alive and we`re looking for her.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. The statement is not attributable to her. My prediction, though, is, Nancy, by the time this case goes to trial, it will not be about whether Caylee is dead or alive but how she died.

GRACE: Excellent point, Peter Odom.

Out to the lines. Ann in Louisiana. Hi, Ann.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have a quick question for you. I was wondering -- I know they checked the cell tower for her pings and they kind of realized she was out by the airport, but do you think they`ve checked for any other pings that line up with hers that would say there was someone with her?

GRACE: Interesting. What about it, Mike Brooks? This is your expertise.

BROOKS: No, I would say so, Nancy. You know, they thought they had the pings going back to that area that Tim Miller and Texas Equusearch was searching, but nothing came up with that. But I`m sure they`ve gone over each of those pings on those particular days in question with a fine- toothed comb.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you don`t think lying to us is going to help us find her, why would you do that?

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I`m scared. And I know I`m running out of options (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you scared of?

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m scared of not seeing my daughter ever again.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: My granddaughter, Caylee Marie Anthony, who is age 3, is alive. I`m going to find her.

CINDY ANTHONY: They have not been taking Caylee`s tips, which I`ve been saying that from day one, but I have been ridiculed and prosecuted.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Thinking about the night that my wife made that phone call or three phone calls before someone actually showed up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: That was the hardest thing she ever had to do. Think about wanting to turn your own child in for -- whatever it might be. That hurts her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had a chance to review the interview given by Todd Black, and I`ve spoken to Todd Black personally. And in doing so, I`ve come to the conclusion that, one, it was taken out of context. What happened in that interview was there were jokes being made about this case. I don`t see how anyone could be joking about a case of a missing child or a case of first-degree murder, and that is what I believe he was referring to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, we played you the clip and no one was joking about little Caylee`s disappearance. In fact, the defense team spokesperson goes on national TV, on this network, and makes a statement that little Caylee is dead while they are arguing to the court that she is alive and they`re looking for her.

I want to go back out to Rory O`Neill, reporter with Westwood One. He`s standing by at the Orlando, Florida, jail. Speaking of the defense, there are mounting reports that the defense attorney, Baez, will come off the case because of lack of trial experience. Did Baez address that?

RORY O`NEILL, WESTWOOD ONE: Well, he did, Nancy, because under Florida statute, a lawyer here must have at least five years of trial room (ph) experience in order to qualify to sit on a capital murder case. So he says that there are associates within his firm that he can tap who do have the experience and the background necessary that will allow them to stay as the lead counsel for Casey Anthony, if and when this case goes to trial.

GRACE: What exactly is Baez`s trial experience? How many cases has he tried?

O`NEILL: I don`t know the total number. He`s had three of the more high-profile cases in town.

GRACE: No, I`m talking about trials. Trials.

O`NEILL: I`m trying to think of the specific trial number. It doesn`t come to mind immediately.

GRACE: Well, you know what? Nobody...

O`NEILL: I have not covered him in the courtroom.

GRACE: Yes. To -- and that is your beat.

O`NEILL: Right.

GRACE: Mark Williams of WNDB, what about it? I asked you this before. How many cases has this guy tried?

WILLIAMS: We know of three cases. One was a murder case in nearby Lake County.

GRACE: OK. That`s one.

WILLIAMS: And the gentleman was found guilty.

GRACE: Yes.

WILLIAMS: But obviously, it wasn`t a capital case. Secondly, he defended the mayor of Kissimmee, Mr. Gant down there...

GRACE: You told me that was a settlement.

WILLIAMS: Yes, that was a settlement.

GRACE: That`s not a trial, Mark. We talked about that.

WILLIAMS: I know, Nancy.

GRACE: So we`re down to two.

WILLIAMS: I`m just throwing it out there. Third one, he defended a woman, an Elvira Garcia (ph), who allegedly took a 6-month-old...

GRACE: Did it go to trial?

WILLIAMS: Not that we know of.

GRACE: Well, then why did you tell me three trials? That`s one trial, and the guy was convicted. Help me out here. Throw me a bone, Williams!

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: No, I mean it.

WILLIAMS: Well...

GRACE: You know what? Let`s go to the lawyers -- Susan Moss, Peter Odom, Michael Mazzariello. He absolutely cannot, Susan Moss, I don`t care how great of a lawyer he may be, try a death penalty case unless he has trial experience under his belt. End of story. I don`t care how many cases he settled. That is the law.

MOSS: That is the law, and that`s a law for a good reason. You are talking about a person`s life. At the end of this case, her life could be absolutely in jeopardy. You don`t leave that to a novice. This is not moot court or moot trial or mock trial. You`ve got to know what you`re doing. You`ve got to do a good job, or else the whole trial can...

GRACE: We`re not playing tetherball out on the playground. You don`t get a redo in a death penalty case.

And back to you, Mark Williams. Did he say -- let me get this straight that there was someone death penalty-qualified to try the case, but that they want it to remain secret at this juncture?

WILLIAMS: Yes. The attorney said he didn`t want to be identified whatsoever.

GRACE: Why? Why?

WILLIAMS: Who knows? Maybe threats. There`s -- lawyers are great people. Sometimes they have little idiosyncracies, like they don`t want to be pressured, they don`t want their name out there.

GRACE: You know what, Mark? I`ve never heard of a single lawyer that did not want his or her name out there to try to get cases.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: And I hear laughter in all the studios all around this country right now because you know it`s true. You know, Mark Williams, you better give me a straight answer the next time I come to you...

WILLIAMS: OK.

GRACE: ... because that`s complete BS, and that is the technical legal term.

Take a listen to what Baez said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: We have a team of lawyers working on the Casey Marie Anthony case, one of which is death penalty- qualified. He`s asked that his name not be mentioned at this time because -- quite frankly, I can`t blame him. And should the death penalty be sought, which is a big maybe, we will be prepared to handle it and move forward in the case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to the lawyers. To you, Peter Odom. I`ve never in my life -- and I`ve seen plenty of them -- seen a death penalty defense lawyer say, I want to be anonymous, because you know what? A death penalty defense lawyer says, yes, I`m trying a death penalty because I believe this person has a right to a great defense and I`m going give it to them. I`ve never in my life heard a lawyer try to hide that they are defending a case.

ODOM: I agree with you, Nancy, it is remarkable. But remember, this case is remarkable. It has received an unprecedented amount of media attention, and maybe that`s affecting his behavior. Who knows?

GRACE: All the more better, Michael Mazzariello. You know how it works with defense lawyers.

MAZZARIELLO: Absolutely. And having tried a death penalty case here in New York that started off as death penalty, we had the Capital Defenders -- they specialize in the death penalty case -- to help us if we needed any help with the paperwork and if we didn`t know what we were doing. It`s a serious charge. He has to know what he`s doing. And the judge will take care of it, Nancy. If he`s not qualified, the judge will second seat him with an experienced attorney.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California. What do you make of it?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, here`s the situation. When I was back there, there was nobody there qualified to try a murder case of this magnitude. And that`s why they had brought in Mr. Walsh (ph) -- I believe his name is Mike Walsh -- from Miami because, you know, three years -- most states require five years, as Florida does. And that was discussed on several occasions. This sounds like another mistake by Todd Black or Todd Bunch or whatever his name is.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody. We`re taking your calls live. But to tonight`s "Case Alert," the search for a young mom vanishing, Miami, Florida, 24-year-old Lily Aramburo reported missing June 2007 from a condo she shared with a live-in. According to reports, since her disappearance, the condo has been found desolate, full of trash, appliances missing. She`s 4-11, 108 pounds, black hair, brown eyes, tattoo lower back. If you have info, call Miami-Dade police, 305-418-7200.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a missing child, and I don`t want anyone to stop looking for Caylee because they think that we think she`s deceased.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned her.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, she`s either in a dumpster right now, she`s buried somewhere, she -- she`s out there somewhere and her rotting body is starting to decompose.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe Caylee is alive and we`re actively looking for her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Texas Equusearch has left the area of Orlando after no cooperation, according to them, from the Anthony family. Back out to Natisha Lance, our producer, standing by at the jail. Natisha, are police planning to start a search? Are they rounding up volunteers?

LANCE: At this point, Nancy, police are just following up those tips that have come in and working with all the information that they have at this point. There is not an active search. But when the time becomes available, they will be doing that.

GRACE: And to Mark Williams with WNDB. Has the defense filed for a change of venue?

WILLIAMS: Not as of yet. There`s -- you know, the Baez office has been very silent. You know, he never even asked for a speedy trial on Tuesday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re focused on finding Caylee. I will not come to you and tell you anything but that unless I have definitive proof...

CINDY ANTHONY: Are you looking for a live Caylee or a dead Caylee?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re looking for Caylee because we don`t know where Caylee...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: There`s absolutely nothing to find out. Not even what I told the detectives.

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: Well, you know, everything you`re telling them is a lie.

C. ANTHONY: I have no clue where Caylee is.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you think your sister is being truthful?

L. ANTHONY: To the best of her ability right now, I do. And frankly, I wouldn`t still be here if I didn`t think that she was trying to cooperate with me.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I know my daughter is not leveling with me. I know what she`s done in the past.

You know, I got to believe her that she knows where -- everything is OK.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I don`t know what your involvement is, sweetheart. You`re not telling me where she`s at. If you just told them the truth and not lied about everything...

I trust Casey and I love her and I support her and that I understand, and every day that goes by I know exactly how hard it is that she`s giving up her life to protect her child.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Straight out to Richard Grund, the father of Jesse Grund, As you will recall, he was engaged to tot mom Casey Anthony and was actually told that Caylee was his biological child. That it turned out to be false, that he had fallen in love with the little girl.

Mr. Grund, thank you for being with us. What are your feelings now that formal charges have come down?

RICHARD GRUND, FATHER OF JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: Well, Nancy, thank you for having me on. You know we saw where this was going. We`ve watched the evidence. We`ve watched the trail. We knew it had to -- as long as Casey never said where Caylee is or who has her, this is the only direction it could go in, but we`re -- you know if anybody thinks that we`re happy or we`re celebrating, we`re not.

GRACE: You have said that if Caylee`s actually dead you believe it was the result of an accident? Do you still believe that?

GRUND: I absolutely believe that. I have never changed from that. I do not believe at any time that Casey Anthony would do deliberate harm to her daughter and almost anybody that knows Casey from friends to family say the same things. So I have not -- I have not backed off of that.

GRACE: In your wildest imaginings, how can you explain chloroform in her car trunk and her computer searches for chloroform?

GRUND: I think -- and Rob Dick can give you a better explanation of this, I believe -- and you know, let me state that since Caylee went missing I have done nothing but talked to Leonard, talked to anybody I can to try to find her. I have neglected in my life.

GRACE: Scenario. You say it`s an accident, how can that be with this evidence?

GRUND: OK, because I believe that Casey was working on a way to get away from her mother and I think that she had an exit strategy and something went wrong.

GRACE: OK. Well, that`s so vague I don`t even know what you`re talking about.

GRUND: What I mean is, I think -- and Rob can explain this better -- I think Casey was going to find a way to get away from her mother and it might have included faking a kidnapping.

GRACE: OK. Well, then that`s not an accident. You do a kidnapping and you use chloroform, that`s an aggravated assault and when they get her.

GRUND: If she used the chloroform.

GRACE: . (INAUDIBLE) murder.

GRUND: You know, Nancy, what we`re dealing with right now is a whole lot of speculation. We don`t know what happened.

GRACE: That is certainly true.

GRUND: If they find Caylee and there`s no evidence of chloroform all that goes out the window.

GRACE: Well, there is evidence of chloroform. But you`re right.

GRUND: In the car.

GRACE: . we don`t where Caylee is. That is absolutely correct.

I want to go to Bethany Marshall -- Bethany, psychoanalyst and author of "Dealbreakers."

Dr. Marshall, you heard the press conference today where the defense spokesperson refers to Caylee`s death. Freudian slip?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Freudian slip because you know whoever acknowledges little Casey is dead has to acknowledge on some level that Casey could be a murderer.

And as far as the Kool-Aid reference, you know, that reminds me Jim Jones, the sociopath and cult leader who had homicidal intent, got all of the followers to drink the Kool-Aid.

The reference is not inappropriate. I mean Casey has fit a sociopathic profile. She probably has homicidal intent. We`ll find out when this goes to court and she`s been like pipe piper in terms of persuading everybody to go along with her up until this point.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Ellie in Utah, hi Ellie.

ELLIE, UTAH RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

ELLIE: I was just wondering if the police have any information on where Casey would have obtained the chloroform from?

GRACE: What do we know, Mark Williams?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, she`s obviously searched the chloroform word in her computer, but the deal is, is that you can mail order or get chloroform over the Internet. You can order it over the Internet. All you need is a credit card.

GRACE: You know, you`re absolutely correct about that.

To Sue in New York, hi, Sue.

SUE, NEW YORK RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. My question is with -- I don`t think that it`s been decided yet as to whether this is going to be a death penalty case or not.

GRACE: Right.

SUE: But showing -- being we`ve seen her pattern of continuing lying, showing complete emotionless.

GRACE: Right.

SUE: . and nothing coming from this woman. I show more emotion when my animal`s gone missing, what kind of impact is that going have as far as them deciding as to whether they`re going go for the death penalty?

GRACE: Susan Moss?

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: I think it`s going to create a big impact. I think the fact of her lack of empathy is going to show the prosecutor that you really have to go all the way with her.

GRACE: I want to go to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of John J. College of Criminal Law, consultant -- paid consultant on the Anthony defense team.

Dr. Kobilinsky, when a defense -- well, you know the judge has ruled the state can go forward with forensic testing. The defense has tried to stop all forensic testing which is a crazy motion.

When you observe testing by the state, what is your role?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Well, I`m there to make sure that the testing is done following the procedures that the laboratory has and that have been validated.

And to see that the evidence is not in endangered, that it might be contaminated, that it might be consumed when it was not necessary to do that consumption, and basically to make observations to convince myself that the results are reliable.

GRACE: Well, what are you doing? In the middle of the state`s testing you go, no, stop. You know, you`re not doing correctly?

KOBILINSKY: No, I don`t know that that is the case. I`ve done this kind of procedure before and we have informal discussions, but I think the judge has indicated that the defense expert has no right to discuss these kinds of procedures with the person doing the work, and I have no problem with that.

I just want to make sure that the information that comes out of this testing is something that we can trust so that there is facts that a jury, if it does go to trial, that a jury can trust.

GRACE: You know these words are going to come back to haunt you, Kobilinsky. You`ll see.

Everybody, as we go to break, a very special happy birthday to beautiful Jena, there she is, one evening at the show. And to my brother, Mac Grace. Here he is in his younger years. There he is over in the left and here he is with his wife, my sister-in-law, Jan.

Happy birthday, Jena and Mac.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Take a look at this picture of the boy. This is who police are looking for. They say that as many as three men knocked on the family`s door in Las Vegas yesterday morning. They claimed to be cops.

The mom opened the door because of that and that`s when these men burst in and demanded money. When the intruders didn`t find any money, police say they tied up Cole`s mother and her fiance and then they kidnapped Cole at gunpoint.

A neighbor says that Cole`s mother managed to crawl out to the sidewalk. Her mouth was duct tape, her hands were tied with electrical ties, and investigators believe the family was targeted.

Police have been going door to door using helicopters, patrol cars, everything they can to find Cole. They have not found him.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Please take a look at this little boy. He`s just 6 years old. His name is Cole Puffinburger. The tip line number is 702-828-3111, Las Vegas Metro Police Department.

There he is, 3`11", just 48 pounds, blond hair, blue ice.

What an outrageous set of circumstances, to Michelle Sigona with "America`s Most Wanted.

MICHELLE SIGONA, CORRESPONDENT, AMERICA`S MOST WANTED: This is. This is horrible, Nancy. And what police tell me -- just got off the phone with them again -- that this is not a random attack. This appears to be brainstormed. It was set, it was planned and it was actually executed, unfortunately.

And from what investigators tell me is that these men evidently went into the home looking for the grandfather of Cole. The grandfather hasn`t lived there since May of 2007. And when they couldn`t find him they started questioning Cole`s mom, and she didn`t have any information and that`s when they apparently tied up, you know, Cole`s mom and also her fiance, and then they took Cole and they left.

GRACE: To Ky Plaskon, with -- with KXNT News Radio -- Ky, thank you for being with us. What do they mean it`s not random and any idea where the little boy is? Do they really believe he`s headed to Mexico?

KY PLASKON, REPORTER, KXNT NEWS RADIO: Well, they really don`t know where he`s headed, but they have got the FBI involved to try and track down these people -- this trash.

They might have been looking for the grandfather from what we heard. Just an hour ago they`ve released why the -- this family, they believe, was targeted, which they said it was a drug nexus.

So drugs may have been sold out of this house. People may have been going there to look for that actual drug money at the time and now this young boy is caught in the middle of all of this, Nancy.

GRACE: You know what? Frankly, Ky, I don`t care what the motive is, this little boy is missing, taken out of his own home. I don`t know what the grandfather was into at some time in the past. All I know is he wasn`t there. He hadn`t lived there in a long time and this little boy was taken at gunpoint.

Take a look at little Cole.

Out to Captain Vincent Cannito with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police. Captain, thank you for being with us. Can you give us a description of the perps?

CAPT. VINCENT CANNITO, LAS VEGAS METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPT.: Yes, Nancy. Right now we`re dealing with three -- from what we have Hispanic male adults. The only clear description we have on one of them is approximately a Hispanic male in his early 30s, approximately 5`7", 170 pounds, shoulder length black hair, slick back.

GRACE: Wait a minute, were they wearing masks?

CANNITO: No, they weren`t.

GRACE: And that`s the best we`ve got? How about a composite?

CANNITO: You know, unfortunately, Nancy, when you`re dealing with a situation like this and given the magnitude and the violent nature of this incident right here for the daughter and the boyfriend to give us a very clear description, we haven`t been able to get one from them.

GRACE: OK. Captain.

CANNITO: Yes.

GRACE: That doesn`t sound right to me that they can`t give a composite description of the perps? I mean, they pulled a gun on them, they had to tie them up. They were tied up so they had to get close to the perpetrators.

CANNITO: Yes. Well, Nancy, again, as we`re asking these questions of the people that were in the home and we`re trying to get the information from them, we`re asking the same questions.

GRACE: You know, Captain, I read you loud and clear. I don`t care what may be hinky about the case, this boy is missing.

Now, Captain, do we know the boy was there? Do we know he was really there in the home?

CANNITO: Through all of the investigative leads that we`ve been following up on, we do. We do know that this child was actually kidnapped.

GRACE: Oh, Captain, you what? I was hoping so much it was some kind of a fantastic hoax. Look at this little boy taken at gunpoint out of his home.

We are taking your calls live, to Jennifer in North Carolina, hi, Jennifer.

JENNIFER, NORTH CAROLINA RESIDENT: Hi, Nancy. We love you.

GRACE: Thank you, dear, and thank you to my friends in North Carolina for watching and calling in so often.

What`s your question, dear?

JENNIFER: You said that they tied up the mom`s fiance. Do you know anything about the boy`s father?

GRACE: The boy`s father. I do know -- actually let me ask Ky Plaskon that with KXNT. Didn`t he show up a short time after and completely broke down in tears when he learned what had happened?

PLASKON: He showed up running and crying into the house. That`s all we know at this point.

He was divorced from his wife at the time. His -- Cole`s mother was there at the house with her fiance. They went through this whole ordeal, but now the father is, obviously, having to deal with it himself, too.

GRACE: So how soon after the incident did the father show up?

PLASKON: We`re not really sure what -- at what point he showed up, but it was between now and Wednesday at 7:15 in the morning.

Let me tell you they didn`t issue the AMBER Alert until about noon and this happened at 7:15 in the morning. They didn`t issue the AMBER Alert because they didn`t have a good description. They still don`t know what kind of car these guys are driving. They don`t know even which direction they may be headed.

GRACE: You know Captain Cannito is us from the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department.

Captain, didn`t anybody outside see anything? Did this actually happen at 7:00 a.m.?

CANNITO: Yes. This happened at approximately 7:23 in the morning. I`d like to get back to the AMBER Alert issue. What we did was when we got the call initially we went out there, patrol officers, the primary responders, then they called out the detectives.

We go out, we canvassed the area. We look at neighboring stores, any homes that may have video. We go on view the video to see if there was anything that would indicate the activities that we`re investigating at the time.

Now this call came in at 07:23 in the morning. The first unit responded at 07:30. That was the first detective was called out and actually responded on the scene at 08:09. At that time, the investigative process is taking course. We requested the AMBER Alert once all the information was established and verified, investigation was under way.

At approximately 11:30 is when the AMBER Alert was requested.

You have to understand, again, as was pointed out that the vehicle -- there is no vehicle description and under normal circumstances that`s a very critical piece of information for an AMBER Alert to get authorized to the state.

GRACE: Exactly.

CANNITO: But there is -- but there is latitude and flexibility with that based on the severity of the situation and dealing with the urgency to the child, the danger to the child or the person in question.

In this case, again, this is one of those cases, this is as bad as it gets. So the states have been absolutely phenomenal with the AMBER Alert and, again, to explain a little bit about that AMBER Alert process, the reason it is, as difficult as it is to get one of those on, is because we don`t want to minimize the impact that an AMBER Alert has.

But to address the issue of time to get that Amber Alert on, and you`re looking at several hours and that is the course of the preliminary investigation and in very short order with all the units that were working that case.

GRACE: Hey, Captain.

CANNITO: I got that AMBER Alert on as quickly as possible. Yes.

GRACE: I just heard a statement that somehow somebody in the home at some point in the past may have been involved in drugs. What do you know?

CANNITO: This is definitely a situation that is initiated due to a drug nexus. Now we have been working this case, again, since 7:30 yesterday morning. We are following up on a number of leads that have come in through the media, that have come in through a non-emergency line.

GRACE: Oh Captain.

CANNITO: And.

GRACE: Captain, I`m just sick. I`m sick that the conduct of adults - - let`s go to Bethany Marshall. The conduct of adults, I guess, the grandfather is who they`re referring to at some point being involved in drugs that somehow that has resulted in this little boy`s kidnap at gunpoint?

How irresponsible for parents to somehow expose their children to that.

MARSHALL: It is unconscionable that any parent would engage in any activity at all.

GRACE: Listen, Bethany.

MARSHALL: . that would put their child at risk.

GRACE: Bethany, Bethany, last Christmas.

MARSHALL: Yes.

GRACE: . somebody came to the Christmas dinner and I smelled smoke on them, I`m like, uh-uh, no, sorry, get out.

MARSHALL: Well, Nancy.

GRACE: Nicotine affects SIDS.

MARSHALL: I know.

GRACE: Sudden infant death syndrome. But there`s a parent.

MARSHALL: I know.

GRACE: . that would allow a doper in the house with a child?

MARSHALL: And I`ll do one worse on this, the fact that they`re potentially part of a drug cartel, according to one news report, Mexican Nationals, the culture of terrorism over there, the beheadings, the rapes, the tortures, the fact that these parents, it`s not just that these parents are smoking, they`re exposing their child to that whole culture and that whole way of life.

That is what is so unconscionable and irresponsible.

GRACE: Peter Odom, Peter Odom, if this is true, the whole kit and caboodle needs to be investigated. They have exposed to boy to anybody that`s a doper.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And Nancy, there are states that have criminal penalties for just exposing children to things like this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this time, we are comfortable in saying that this kidnapping has a very definite drug nexus involved with the family. Right now, we`re at approximately 33 hours into this investigation. Today we have interviewed dozens, literally dozens of individuals that have some form of information or connection to this incident.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to the lines, to Elizabeth, hi, Elizabeth.

ELIZABETH, CALLER: Hi, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

ELIZABETH: I have -- want to know if they have found the grandfather, where is the grandfather and have they talked to him?

GRACE: To Captain Vincent Cannito with the Vegas Police Department, what do we know?

CANNITO: Right now we`re following up on a number of different leads involving all members of his family with regards to any one in particular or specifics such as a grandfather.

GRACE: OK.

CANNITO: . or what have you. Again.

GRACE: Were there any prints, Captain? Were prints taken?

CANNITO: Well, when we got into the -- to the residence, there was some -- evidence that was taken out of the home. But again, due to the nature of this investigation and the sensitivity of this case, dealing with a 6-year-old child, I know that you respect the fact that.

GRACE: Right, I do.

CANNITO: . there are certain details with this case that clearly we can`t.

GRACE: Got it.

CANNITO: . jeopardize.

GRACE: Mike Brooks, what do you think?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: I think, you know, the captain`s right, you can`t comment on that, but I agree you Nancy, I`m sure the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police, (INAUDIBLE) Department, along with the FBI, I`m sure the DEA is going to get involved in this because they operate cases all the time before.

GRACE: Have you ever heard of anything to do with a drug deal, a child being taken? I have not.

BROOKS: No, I -- in recent memory, Nancy, I cannot think of anything like this. I mean just a horrible, horrible thing to this innocent boy.

GRACE: Let`s go back to that tip line, 702-828-3111.

Look at Cole, everybody, taken at gunpoint, out of his home.

I want to stop and remember Army Sergeant Guadalupe Cervantes Ramirez, 26, Port Irwin, California, on a second tour, also served Korea. Awarded the Army Commendation Medal. Loved learning new things. Remembered for devotion, loyalty, courage.

Leaves behind parents, widow Amber, children Amy and Guadalupe.

Guadalupe Cervantes Ramirez, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us, and a special good night from Georgia friends of the show, Ann, Lynne, Melody, April, aren`t they beautiful?

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END
NANCY GRACE

Casey Anthony Murder Case Developments

Aired October 16, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 17 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell. The tot mom defense spokesperson goes on national TV and refers to little Caylee`s death. Translation? Even the defense mouthpiece slips up and announces 3-year-old Caylee is dead. This while mom Casey Anthony and grandparents George and Cindy insist little Caylee was kidnapped and is still alive. The defense now, as usual, blaming the media.

Mom Casey facing formal charges, including murder one. Without a body, prosecutors building a case against tot mom Casey with state-of-the- art forensics and reams of mom Casey`s lies, but will it stick? The DA yet to announce if the Florida death penalty will be sought. Mom Casey Anthony in protective custody behind bars tonight. The judge orders forensic testing will go forward, squashing the defense demand that all testing stop immediately, as Texas Equusearch pulls out of Orlando after no cooperation with the Anthony family. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony, the mother of missing toddler Caylee Anthony, is facing first-degree murder charges in the disappearance and presumed death of her little girl, Caylee. Todd Black, the spokesman for Casey`s attorney, Jose Baez, and his firm had made mention of little Caylee and he said in there that we`re dealing with the loss of a life of a little girl. And here`s what he has to say concerning that very comment, releasing a statement to us, saying that remark is being taken out of context. Our position remains clear that Caylee is still alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe Caylee is alive, and we`re actively looking for her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: Why are you calling now? Why didn`t you call 31 days ago?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I have been looking for her and have gone through other resources to try to find her, which is stupid.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: You`re not telling me where she`s at.

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I don`t (DELETED) know where she`s at! Are you kidding me?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Marie Anthony is charged with first-degree murder of the death of her child. So for him to say that this case is about the death of a child or what will happen to Casey isn`t exactly an inaccurate statement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, Vegas police on high alert, a 6-year-old little boy in extreme danger, kidnapped at gunpoint from his own home, his family found bound and left behind.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An Amber Alert has been issued for 6-year-old Cole Puffinburger, who was kidnapped at gunpoint. Police say three male suspects came to the boy`s home in the early morning Wednesday and got in by posing as police officers. That`s when police say they tied and gagged Cole`s mother and the mother`s friend and began searching the apartment for money. When there was no money to be found, the suspects kidnapped little Cole. Police are desperate to find Cole and are concerned for his safety.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As soon as the Amber Alert went out and as soon as this photograph was received at the center, we did a 90-mile radius of every motel, hotel, truck stop, trucking company, everybody that`s dispatched by computer, like trucking companies, mass transit kind of thing. That child`s photo was given to all of them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities in southern California, New Mexico and Arizona have all been alerted to the kidnapping, with some suggestion the kidnappers may take the child to Mexico.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: We hear Cindy all the time now. Even still, just days ago and just yesterday, you know, still -- sounds like she`s still drinking the Casey Kool-Aid. But I think George has finally said, you know, Enough is enough here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a very serious case involving not just the loss of the life of this little girl but the loss of whatever`s going happen with Casey Anthony. And for a gentleman to sit on a show, on a national show, and make a remark like Caylee -- what did he call it, cocktail, or whatever he said, the Kool-Aid, Casey Kool-Aid -- I mean, making fun of something like this isn`t what anybody should be doing, especially if they`re professionals.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had a chance to review the interview given by Todd Black. In doing so, I`ve come to the conclusion that, one, it was taken out of context. What happened in that interview was there were jokes being made about this case. I don`t see how anyone could be joking about a case of a missing child or a case of first-degree murder, and that is what I believe he was referring to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s gone so far downhill and it`s become such a mess, we need to end it. It`s very simple. We just need to end it.

CASEY ANTHONY: I agree with you. I have no clue where she is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure you do.

CASEY ANTHONY: If I knew in any sense where she was, this wouldn`t have happened at all.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I still believe in my heart and everything that we`re still getting tips and things like that, that my granddaughter`s still out there and she`s alive. No matter what has been portrayed or no matter what has been brought against my daughter at the moment, my granddaughter is still out there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Mark Williams of WNDB news talk 1150. Mark, I`ve watched the clip several times. I don`t think that anyone was being jocular. No one was making light of the situation at all.

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSRADIO 1150: Well, the deal is, it has just erupted into a media firestorm today, Nancy. This took place on Tuesday night on CNN Headline News, when Mr. Black made mention -- and we`re quoting -- "a loss of life" of this little girl. Then Mr. Black was heard hesitating ever so slightly, then trying to backtrack on his statement.

It was an exchange with a guest that we have on this show, Mike Brooks. But this afternoon, Jose Baez, the defense attorney, holding a news conference, saying yes, he was taken out of context and that Mr. Black is not a lawyer.

GRACE: Joining me right now, former fed with the FBI -- apparently, you started the whole thing, Mike Brooks. But I think it`s very significant, when the defense`s own team, who is saying the little girl is alive, be it in Texas, Puerto Rico, North Carolina, Florida, wherever, to come out and talk about, quote, "the loss of Caylee`s life."

BROOKS: Absolutely, Nancy. And there was nothing at all taken out of context. And they said, you know, what I was saying was a joke. This was earlier in "Prime News." You know, I`m CNN`s law enforcement analyst, and I`m very, very serious about this case and I`m sickened by this case. And what I said, that Cindy Anthony was -- still continued to drink the Casey Kool-Aid, I was implying that she`s still believing what her daughter is telling her, despite the mounds of evidence against her.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live right now. Tot mom Casey Anthony has been moved to protective custody behind bars. Specifically, what does that mean, Brooks, protective custody?

BROOKS: It means that she`s by herself. She`s in a cell all by herself, doesn`t have any contact with any of the other inmates in the facility. You know, there`s a possibility that they believe that she could be in some danger because there kind of might have been threats. That`s why they put them in protective custody. And it`s a very, very high level of security.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer, standing by there at the Orlando jail. Explain to me what her living conditions are.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: It`s a 12-and-a-half by seven (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: Natisha, could you speak up? Natisha, I can`t hear you . Speak up, please.

LANCE: Yes, absolutely. She`s in a 12-and-a-half by 7-foot cell. She has a desk and a stool in her cell also. She has a bed. She has a sink. She has a toilet. Also, she has one hour a day where she can go take a shower. She can sit in the day room. Also, she has one hour a day where she could possibly go to the recreational area. She can also check out books from the library. And previously, when she has been incarcerated, they have said that she was a very ferocious (SIC) reader.

GRACE: And has she had any visitors, Natisha?

LANCE: She did. She had a visit last night from her attorney, Jose Baez. However, there have not been any visits that have been scheduled by her family for any type of video visitations, at this point.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers -- Susan Moss, child advocate, Peter Odom, defense attorney out of Atlanta, Michael Mazzariello, defense attorney and host of "Closing Arguments" on WGNY.

You know, Peter, you`re in a lot of trouble when your own spokesperson says the victim is dead.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, he went off the party line, Nancy, and it`s a very difficult party line to stick to. No reasonable person really believes that this child is alive at this point, and he just forgot. And really, the problem is that they probably shouldn`t be trying to play this in the media anymore. It`s over.

GRACE: You know, now is the time for complete silence on both sides, not as if the prosecution has made any public statements anyway. To Susan Moss, what about it?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: The science is going to prove whether this child is alive or dead. And let me tell you something. If Caylee`s fluid is found in her trunk, the defense`s efforts for acquittal is sunk. This is a case about science. I think the science is going to show that it was her hair in the trunk, it`s her fluid on the bag that was found in the trunk, and it was her decomposing body that was found in the air in her car.

GRACE: And here`s the thing. To Michael Mazzariello. Michael, even though the defense spokesperson has said on national TV, on this network, that little Caylee is dead -- he refers to her "loss of life" -- the jury will never hear about that, will they.

MICHAEL MAZZARIELLO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, they won`t. And it`s a classic example, Nancy, as you know -- loose lips sink ships. I mean, the defense attorney`s got to button up everybody, tell everyone to be quiet.

GRACE: Yes. My question is, will it come into evidence?

MAZZARIELLO: No, absolutely not.

GRACE: Why?

MAZZARIELLO: Because it`s not admissible. It has nothing to do with the case, no bearing to the case.

GRACE: Susan, why won`t it come into evidence?

MOSS: Well, unfortunately, it`s not a party admission and -- unless he can be shown to be a direct agent of her, but even then, it`s going to be a close call, and I don`t think the judge is going to take that risk.

GRACE: Well, obviously, Peter Odom, it`s based on hearsay. The spokesperson doesn`t know by firsthand account. He did not see, hear, taste, touch or smell anything to convince him little Caylee is dead. That is direct evidence. Hearsay would be based on someone telling you that. That`s why it`s not going to come into evidence. Unless the spokesperson knows himself that she is dead, the jury will never know that the defense essentially blurted out the victim is dead. I mean, their whole premise is, She`s alive and we`re looking for her.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. The statement is not attributable to her. My prediction, though, is, Nancy, by the time this case goes to trial, it will not be about whether Caylee is dead or alive but how she died.

GRACE: Excellent point, Peter Odom.

Out to the lines. Ann in Louisiana. Hi, Ann.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have a quick question for you. I was wondering -- I know they checked the cell tower for her pings and they kind of realized she was out by the airport, but do you think they`ve checked for any other pings that line up with hers that would say there was someone with her?

GRACE: Interesting. What about it, Mike Brooks? This is your expertise.

BROOKS: No, I would say so, Nancy. You know, they thought they had the pings going back to that area that Tim Miller and Texas Equusearch was searching, but nothing came up with that. But I`m sure they`ve gone over each of those pings on those particular days in question with a fine- toothed comb.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you don`t think lying to us is going to help us find her, why would you do that?

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I`m scared. And I know I`m running out of options (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you scared of?

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m scared of not seeing my daughter ever again.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: My granddaughter, Caylee Marie Anthony, who is age 3, is alive. I`m going to find her.

CINDY ANTHONY: They have not been taking Caylee`s tips, which I`ve been saying that from day one, but I have been ridiculed and prosecuted.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Thinking about the night that my wife made that phone call or three phone calls before someone actually showed up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: That was the hardest thing she ever had to do. Think about wanting to turn your own child in for -- whatever it might be. That hurts her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had a chance to review the interview given by Todd Black, and I`ve spoken to Todd Black personally. And in doing so, I`ve come to the conclusion that, one, it was taken out of context. What happened in that interview was there were jokes being made about this case. I don`t see how anyone could be joking about a case of a missing child or a case of first-degree murder, and that is what I believe he was referring to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, we played you the clip and no one was joking about little Caylee`s disappearance. In fact, the defense team spokesperson goes on national TV, on this network, and makes a statement that little Caylee is dead while they are arguing to the court that she is alive and they`re looking for her.

I want to go back out to Rory O`Neill, reporter with Westwood One. He`s standing by at the Orlando, Florida, jail. Speaking of the defense, there are mounting reports that the defense attorney, Baez, will come off the case because of lack of trial experience. Did Baez address that?

RORY O`NEILL, WESTWOOD ONE: Well, he did, Nancy, because under Florida statute, a lawyer here must have at least five years of trial room (ph) experience in order to qualify to sit on a capital murder case. So he says that there are associates within his firm that he can tap who do have the experience and the background necessary that will allow them to stay as the lead counsel for Casey Anthony, if and when this case goes to trial.

GRACE: What exactly is Baez`s trial experience? How many cases has he tried?

O`NEILL: I don`t know the total number. He`s had three of the more high-profile cases in town.

GRACE: No, I`m talking about trials. Trials.

O`NEILL: I`m trying to think of the specific trial number. It doesn`t come to mind immediately.

GRACE: Well, you know what? Nobody...

O`NEILL: I have not covered him in the courtroom.

GRACE: Yes. To -- and that is your beat.

O`NEILL: Right.

GRACE: Mark Williams of WNDB, what about it? I asked you this before. How many cases has this guy tried?

WILLIAMS: We know of three

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

New Witness in Casey Anthony Case

Aired October 17, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 17 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. In the last hour, tot mom Casey Anthony pleads not guilty to murder one. And a new and extremely detailed tip placing mom Casey leaving a heavily-wooded area after Caylee goes missing, shovel in hand, five miles from the Anthony home and near the Orlando airport. The witness says mom Casey, in hat and shades, carrying shovel and bag, along with an unidentified male accomplice. Is the tip credible? This would be the second eyewitness placing mom Casey near the airport after Caylee goes missing.

And tonight, after suddenly pulling out of Orlando with no cooperation from the Anthony family, Texas Equusearch heads back to Florida to pick up the search for Caylee. The defense mouthpiece who slips up and announces 3-year-old Caylee is dead now says it`s all the media`s fault. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news in the case of missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Tot mom Casey Anthony has pled not guilty to a first degree murder charge related to the disappearance of her 3-year-old daughter, Caylee. If convicted of murder, Anthony could face the death penalty and at the very least is looking at life in prison without the possibility of parole.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Strands of hair, a questionable stain and a foul odor -- the evidence in this car played a large part in Casey Anthony`s indictment for first degree murder. It automatically qualifies for the death penalty, but it is unlikely prosecutors have enough evidence to seek death row for Caylee`s alleged murder.

Criminal defense attorney Diana Tenant (ph) has represented about 15 defendants facing the death penalty. She says death penalty cases take into account the suffering of the victim, and the murder has to have certain aggravators, like being heinous, atrocious and cruel. But while prosecutors say Caylee is dead, there`s no way to prove she suffered without her body.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Remember we had those two people that we were talking about, the person who had an accident or made an accident or made a bad decision, and a person who`s just a cold-blooded, callous monster? That`s telling me that you`re the second person, this cold-blooded, callous monster...

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I`m not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... who doesn`t care and doesn`t want to help because she`s afraid that something so heinous happened that everyone`s going to look at her and say, She`s a monster. She deserves to go away. She deserves to never see the light of day. This bad thing should happen to her.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In addition to the capital murder charge, Anthony faces charges of aggravated manslaughter, aggravated child abuse, as well as lying to investigators. Anthony still maintains the child was kidnapped by alleged baby-sitter Zenaida Gonzalez, while investigators and prosecutors believe that she is responsible for the child`s death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, Vegas police and now the feds on high alert, a 6- year-old little boy in extreme danger, kidnapped at gunpoint from his own home, his family found bound and left behind, the search growing more desperate by the minute. Has a person of interest been identified? And what does a Mexican drug cartel have to do with 6-year-old little Cole?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Little Cole Puffinburger, a 6-year-old boy, might be in the crosshairs of a ruthless drug cartel, kidnapped because, Las Vegas police, say his grandfather owes drug dealers millions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have interviewed dozens of people. We have created dozens of leads and established several very significant persons of interest. One such person is Clemens Fred Sinimeyer (ph). The individual in this photograph is Cole`s grandfather. This is the individual that has been involved in very significant drug dealing. It would be no understatement to state that other members in the family are involved, as well.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are millions of dollars involved in major drug trafficking that this individual was part of. Please understand that the reason Cole was kidnapped was the result of trying to get back -- the drug dealers trying to get back their money, their property, what have you. We want to ensure that everyone in the country continues looking for this individual.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful little Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking development in the case of missing 3- year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony.

PAUL KOVACH, WITNESS: White car, black bra (ph) on the front. That area right there is where she was coming out of the woods with a shovel.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Orlando station WFTV spoke to a possible eyewitness who claims he saw a woman closely resembling tot mom Casey Anthony near a wooded area with a shovel and bag in late June.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Paul Kovach says he truly believes he saw Casey Anthony`s car parked along the roadside in late June as he and a friend slowly trolled for scrap metal on the roadside.

KOVACH: I knew something was wrong then. If Jimmy would have just stopped, we`d have been all right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kovach says he wanted to see if the woman needed help, but his friend would only slow down as the woman walked out of the wooded area wearing a large straw hat, where a bridge of old tires is the only access to railroad tracks -- very secluded railroad tracks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The witness also says he saw a well-dressed man standing nearby, talking on a cell phone and pretending to fish.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He wasn`t dressed like he was wandering the woods?

KOVACH: No, he was well dressed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kovach says the woman definitely looked like Casey Anthony wearing the big straw hat, big red sunglasses, and he says she had a shovel and a bag.

KOVACH: Trying to get the bag and the shovel into the trunk, she darn near knocked her hat off her head, ran her head into the car and everything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is your daughter in a better place?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, she`s not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you worried about her?

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m absolutely petrified. If she was with her family right now, she`d be in the best place. She`s not.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Kathi Belich with CNN affiliate WFTV. Kathi, tell me about this new tip. It`s my understanding this is the second eyewitness placing mom Casey Anthony in that same area.

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: That`s true. It`s near the airport, south of Orlando International Airport. It was actually the same frame of time, in late June, he says that he saw the car. He says now that it was a white Pontiac Sunfire with a black bra on the front. That`s exactly the way Casey Anthony`s car looks. He said that now thinking back, after seeing pictures of Casey Anthony on the news, he does believe that it`s Casey Anthony.

He says she acted very nervous when she saw the car. She avoided looking at the car. And again, she tried to put the shovel and the bag that she had in her hands in the trunk of that car as quickly as possible, so quickly she almost knocked the hat off. He said she was also wearing big red sunglasses, and that the trunk was already open when they noticed the car, as if somebody was in a hurry to get stuff back into that trunk.

GRACE: Out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter joining us from Sacramento, California. Leonard, what`s so interesting about this tip -- and believe me, as a former prosecutor, I`ve dealt with a million tips. This guy is not an anonymous tipster that`s just calling in and leaving some bogus story on a recording. This is a guy -- here he is, Paul Kovach, the tipster. He`s coming forward. We know his name. We`ve seen his picture. We`ve heard his voice. We know all about him. And his story is extremely detailed, Leonard.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, it`s certainly easy enough to check that area out by the way he described it, and he certainly describes her. And the latter part of June -- I mean, there`s a lot of things in there that certainly fit. The bag, the shovel, the -- the glasses, the white-brim straw hat -- I don`t know about those items, but it`s certainly within the area that everybody has discussed.

GRACE: Back to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Kathi, it`s my understanding that this informant believes his story so much that he is considering getting a group of his own friends to go out and search.

BELICH: That`s right. He is considering that. He doesn`t want to step on the toes of investigators. He has called in that information. He says he hasn`t heard back. A lot of times, they don`t call back and tell somebody whether their information is good or not. But yes, he believes in it very strongly.

GRACE: To Sergeant Scott Haines, a sheriff in Santa Rosa County, Florida. Sergeant, what`s so interesting to me, after dealing with a lot of tips, is the detail in this tip. What does that mean to you?

SGT. SCOTT HAINES, SHERIFF`S OFFICER, SANTA ROSA COUNTY, FL: Well, the more detailed the tip, usually the more reliable the tip. What we need to look at, though, is when the tip came in because most of the things that he`s stating have been seen by the common public on TV, such as her white car with the black bra, the shovel was brought up, things of that nature. And so is the area. So investigators are definitely going to look into this tip. It sounds like a good tip, but at the same time, there have been tips where people have...

GRACE: Hold on. Wouldn`t it be easy enough to get in touch with the guy that was driving to confirm or deny this story happened, Sergeant?

HAINES: That is true. They would definitely need to look at that. But at the same time, there have been people, I`m sure, as you know, that have come together to fabricate things.

GRACE: Oh, please, Sergeant. Come on. You expect me to believe two guys are going to get together to what, frame Casey Anthony? They don`t know her from Adam`s housecat!

HAINES: I`m not saying that they do. I`m just saying that police need to look into that because of all the evidence that...

GRACE: Well, that`s obvious. Of course, they need to look into it. But the detail behind this tip...

We are taking your calls live. Out to Rosann in New Jersey. Hi, Rosann.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Nice speaking with you. I just wanted to say one thing as far as what they`re going to charge her with, obviously, first degree murder. I think they obviously should stick with that. They`re saying maybe she sold her daughter. But why would she use fraudulent checks, phony checks, and not have the money from the sale of her child? So I think they should just dispel that, go for the murder one, and of course, the death penalty -- she`s, you know, cold-hearted. She -- and that`s my thought on that.

GRACE: Do you have a question, Rosann?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I wanted to know if they`re still looking to even, you know, approach that as far as...

GRACE: Oh, no. They are not looking at the possibility of her selling the child. They are going forward with murder one charges probably because of some of your logic. If she had all the money from selling a child, why would she have to forge checks?

Out to Julie in Massachusetts. Hi, Julie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, if she`s found not guilty on these charges, can the federal government then go after her for murder?

GRACE: Interesting. Let`s unleash the lawyers, Penny Douglas Furr, defense attorney out of Atlanta, and Randy Kessler (ph), also out of Atlanta. What about it, Randy?

RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, there are different charges, and sometimes the feds can go after it. We saw this in other cases. We saw this with O.J. Simpson. We saw this in the Anna Nicole Smith situation.

GRACE: I don`t see it here because the little girl is not a federally-protected class, Randy.

KESSLER: If she gets taken across state lines, you know, there are things we`re going to have to look into. The facts are still developing.

GRACE: So it`s possible.

KESSLER: I think it`s possible.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KOVACH: White car, black bra on the front.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Paul Kovach says he truly believes he saw Casey Anthony`s car parked along the roadside in late June as he and a friend slowly trolled for scrap metal on the roadside.

Kovach says he wanted to see if the woman needed help, but his friend would only slow down as the woman walked out of the wooded area wearing a large straw hat, where a bridge of old tires is the only access to railroad tracks -- very secluded railroad tracks.

KOVACH: ... area right there is where she was coming out of the woods with the shovel. Trying to get the bag and the shovel into the trunk, she darn near knocked her hat off her head.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: This is now the second eyewitness account placing mom Casey Anthony near the Orlando airport at the time just after little Caylee goes missing. Also today, headline. Mom Casey Anthony pleads not guilty to murder.

Straight out to Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Tell me about the not guilty.

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Well, she entered it via a letter, so she did not have to make an appearance. She also won`t have to show up for her October 28 arraignment. Looks like the next time that she has to appear in court is going to be on November 5 for her pre-trial for the other charges -- not for the first degree murder but for the check fraud charges and the child neglect.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer standing by there at the Orlando jail. What about the child neglect charge? Won`t that have to be dropped now?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, actually, they say that they are planning to go ahead with the child neglect charge at this point, and we have not heard otherwise. But they are still planning to go ahead with that. Everybody who has been subpoenaed is still planning to be in court on that day.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Penny Douglas Furr and Randy Kessler. To Penny Douglas Furr. I would think that this would be an opportunity for her to appear in court and make a resounding not guilty plea, instead of just doing it by paper.

PENNY DOUGLAS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s true, Nancy. However, I also wanted to say on the other charge with the neglect, I would definitely go forward with that, if I was her attorney.

GRACE: I want to talk about the not guilty plea that just went down in court today. Kessler, what`s your theory about why she`s afraid to show up in court?

KESSLER: Well, look, she`s got people like us on TV criticizing and analyzing every single move she makes. You know, she`s not getting the good breaks from the press. So why would she come out and think that today`s going to be any different? You know, not guilty is not guilty.

GRACE: Well, you know, Kessler, I`m sure you and Penny remember that it helped O.J. Simpson when he showed up in court and said, "100 percent not guilty," firmly, affirmatively. He ended up getting acquitted on that charge at that time. I don`t know. I think that this is a bad way to handle what could have been a good appearance for her in the public`s eyes.

KESSLER: But we don`t know what she was like. We don`t know what her lawyers saw in her eyes. Maybe her lawyer knew that if she stepped into court, she was going to break down and she would not handle this kind of a thing...

GRACE: Break down? The whole time -- to Dr. Lillian Glass, psychologist and author of "I Know What You`re Thinking." This entire ordeal, Lillian, she has cried -- she`s shed a tear or appeared to shed a tear twice, when she was charged and in court the first time, and while the grand jury was meeting about her the second time, never for her own daughter. She`s not going to break down in court.

LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Exactly. You`re so right. These are alligator tears. And when you look at her body language, it speaks volumes. When you listen to her voice quality, it`s a monotone. She doesn`t care. It`s all about her. And this is what`s showing.

GRACE: Lillian?

GLASS: Yes?

GRACE: I know that you are a doctor that has lived in New York for many, many years, but it`s crocodile tears. And where I come from, it`s a very big difference in an alligator and a crocodile.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: Out to Linda in Missouri. Hi, Linda. Lorraine in South Carolina. Hi, Lorraine.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good evening, Nancy. First of all, I`d like to tell you that you are a wonderful mother. I wish more women as mothers would emulate you.

GRACE: You know what? I keep feeling like I`m getting on-the-job training. I`m constantly trying to read books, but they`re not helping. Go ahead. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Also, my prayer goes out to the Anthony family. My question is, when she goes into her attorneys` offices, are they recording the conversations that she`s having with them?

GRACE: I`m sure they are not. They wouldn`t want those things uncovered. Anything she`s saying to the attorney is covered by the attorney-client privilege and can never be repeated -- unless their spokesperson accidentally lets it slip, like he did on national television, stating that Caylee is dead.

Now, today, I understand -- back to Kathi Belich -- that the mouthpiece says the media -- that would be CNN Headline News -- committed fraud, like it was a big TV hoax, that he really didn`t say that?

BELICH: Yes. He sent a release out again today saying that some reporters were purposely misleading the media, purposely misleading the public. He said that he blames CNN for releasing a fraudulent copy of what he said. And then he went on to say there is no evidence that Caylee is dead. And he basically, you know, made some comments about the media that were very insulting, as usual.

GRACE: Kathi, you know what? Let`s listen. Let`s listen to what the mouthpiece had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: We hear Cindy all the time now, even still just days ago and just yesterday, you know, still -- sounded like she`s still drinking the Casey Kool-Aid. But I think George has finally said, you know, Enough is enough here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a very serious case involving not just the loss of the life of this little girl, but the loss of whatever is going to happen with Casey Anthony. And for a gentleman to sit on a show, on a national show, and make a remark like Caylee -- what did he call it, cocktail or whatever he said -- Kool-Aid, Casey Kool-Aid -- I mean, making fun of something like this isn`t what anybody should be doing, especially if they`re professionals.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: So bottom line -- back out to Natisha Lance, our producer standing by at the jail in Orlando -- the mouthpiece for the defense is stating that somehow, Headline News edited what he said on live TV? That`s absolutely impossible. It went out on the airwaves live. Nobody edited that.

LANCE: That`s right. And in the previous release that he had released prior to the one today, he was saying that it was edited and taken out of context. However, we have heard both sides of the argument that were played on Headline News. And it is a live show, just as you stated, Nancy, so there was no editing that went on.

GRACE: And very quickly, we learned that Texas Equusearch is headed back to Orlando to pick up the search for little Caylee. Is that true? To Mandy Albritton, the deputy director.

MANDY ALBRITTON, DEPUTY DIR., TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: That`s correct, Nancy. We`ll be back in Orlando, starting the search again on November 8. That`s a Saturday morning.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you`re worried that if we find that out that people are going to look at you the wrong way?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned her.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kovach says the woman definitely looked like Casey Anthony, wearing the big straw hat, big red sunglasses, and he says she had a shovel and a bag.

KOVACH: Trying to get the bag and the shovel into the trunk, she darn near knocked her hat off her head, ran her head into the car and everything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He is a paid consultant on the defense team for tot mom Casey Anthony. Koby (ph), I understand that it`s going to be impossible for the defense to do their own air samples, like the ones taken in Oak Ridge`s body farm, because the car has been stripped down.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, Nancy, I`ll tell you something else. The strategy might very well be to challenge the validity of that air testing. Sometimes it`s not in the best interests of the defense to try to repeat a procedure, especially if you`re questioning the reliability. So this is a matter of strategy.

GRACE: I think what he just said, Penny Douglas Furr, is that if the defense did their own test and they got the same results, they`d be up the creek without a paddle, so it`s better to sit back and throw stones at the state`s testing.

FURR: Well, if the tests are accurate, why did they strip the car? Why didn`t they leave the car the way it was...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Because they stripped it to perform additional searches? Pretty obvious.

FURR: Well, why didn`t they let the defense come in and do their tests before they stripped the car? Did they invite the defense attorney to do his own testing?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don`t minimize any of this. You have a very dangerous group of people dealing in narcotics. They have forced their way into the home under the ruse of being law enforcement. They`ve kidnapped a 6-year- old boy, took him out of his home. His whereabouts are unknown.

These are extremely dangerous people. We have said it yesterday, we`re saying it again. This is as bad as it gets.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s just really hard to have one of our baby out there with strangers. And he`s a very, very good boy.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Here`s little Cole Puffinburger. Police say a couple of men posing as police officers burst into his family`s home on Wednesday, tied up Cole`s mom and fiance, then kidnapped the boy.

Now police are naming the boy`s grandfather as a person of interest. His name, Clemens Tinnemeyer.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Where is 6-year-old Cole Puffinberger?

Straight out to Michelle Sigona -- Michelle, with "America`s Most Wanted," it`s my understanding he was taken from the home, the family left bound behind?

Do I have Michelle with me?

MICHELLE SIGONA, CORRESPONDENT, AMERICA`S MOST WANTED: Yes. Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: Hi, dear.

SIGONA: Hi.

GRACE: Give me an update, please.

SIGONA: Absolutely. This happened on Wednesday morning, Nancy, October 15th, just after 7:00 in the morning and from what investigators tell me is that there were two possibly three suspects that entered right through the front door. There`s an unlocked door of Coles home. They go inside and they start asking for Cole`s grandfather.

But the funny thing is, is that Cole`s grandfather hasn`t lived there since May of 2007. The mom actually had no clue where the grandfather has been, especially for the last month, because she hasn`t talked to him since August.

And actually the family has filed a missing person`s report just recently for Cole`s grandfather. His last name is Tinnemeyer, first name Clemens. And so -- excuse me I`m sorry.

And I just want to mention that after these folks went in there and they couldn`t get what they wanted, they wanted money at this time, that`s what they snatched up Cole and they went on the run.

GRACE: To Ky Plaskon with -- excuse me, KXNT, I understand a person of interest has emerged.

KY PLASKON, REPORTER, KXNT NEWS RADIO: Yes. That`s the grandfather that she was just talking about. This is not just a little bit of money that they are looking for. They are looking for millions of dollars. And it`s drug money. It`s methamphetamine money.

He was involved with some kind of a ring, a methamphetamine ring, and these guys come in associated with this ring, looking for him, looking for this money. They know that he has been missing since September 11th. That`s when that report came in, that he was gone somewhere, the family didn`t know where he was.

They didn`t find him, they didn`t find the money, they took the kid. Now this kid is worth tens of millions of dollars to this drug cartel.

One of the things that the police have said here is that a message sent, message received. Who is sending the message? The drug cartel. Who is sending the message? The drug cartel. Who`s receiving the message? Well, that would be all of us here.

Hopefully the police want us to find this guy now, this grandfather, and he`s got a couple of different vehicles out there. He`s got a Valencia 2006 motor home that he could be in. He also could be in a Dodge white 2004 extended cab pickup.

I passed four signs on my way down here, AMBER Alert signs, looking for this truck in particular. And supposedly, they are spread out throughout California, throughout New Mexico, Arizona, and certainly throughout southern Nevada here.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have interviewed dozens of people. We have created dozens of leads and established several very significant persons of interest.

One such person is Clemens Fred Tinnemeyer. The individual in this photograph is Cole`s grandfather. This is the individual that has been involved in very significant drug dealing.

It would be no understatement to state that other members in the family are involved, as well.

Don`t minimize any of this. You have is a very dangerous group of people dealing in narcotics. They have forced their way into the home, under the ruse of being law enforcement. They have kidnapped a 6-year-old boy, took him out of his home. His whereabouts are unknown.

These are extremely dangerous people. We`ve said it yesterday, we`re saying it again. This is as bad as it gets.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: How a 6-year-old little boy has somehow gotten embroiled in a Mexican drug cartel plot is incredible.

Take a look at this little boy. He`s just 6 years old. Cole Puffinburger. He`s only 3`11", 48 pounds, blonde hair, blue eyes, stained front teeth, silver-rimmed glasses. He was wearing a black sweatshirt, dark jeans, black shoes and white socks.

This little boy, taken at gunpoint, out of his family`s home. And this is what I want to know.

Back to Ky Plaskon, with KXNT News Radio. Ky, the last time the grandfather was there was when?

PLASKON: Well, what we`ve got is May 21st, that`s the last time that he was seen here in Las Vegas, August was the last time that the family had actually heard from him, and as I said, on September 11th was when they actually decided to report him missing.

Now, this is -- definitely a very dangerous group of people. They probably could have just shown up there and shot up the whole place, or blown up the house. In some ways we might be lucky that they just took the child and now want some money. And they want all of us to try and find this grandfather who supposedly has this money.

GRACE: Let`s take a look at him again, emerging as a person of interest, 51-year-old Clemens F. Tinnemeyer.

And what, Ky, was his involvement again, in a drug cartel, do we believe?

PLASKON: Well, I know a little bit about how money laundering operates and he`s believed to have possibly been involved with money laundering with this drug cartel. The -- there are trunk loads full of cash, very small bills, from drug sales in other states that are coming into the state, in trunks of cars, and then the casinos are used by folks like -- Tinnemeyer to transfer these small bills into very large bills that are very easy to smuggle back across the border, back to the drug cartel, the drug cartel that may be possibly looking for him now.

They would not say which drug cartel might possibly have Cole, but it is, obviously, a very dangerous one. And they are trying to narrow down which drug cartels might be operating here in the Las Vegas valley.

But as I mentioned, there are trunk loads full of cash coming in from all over the country from various cartels to transfer these small bills into very large ones to get them back to their countries of origin.

GRACE: Out to Captain Vincent Cannito with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department.

Captain, thank you for being with us. What is being done? What can be done to find little Cole?

CAPT. VINCENT CANNITO, LAS VEGAS METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPT.: Well, I have to tell you, since this afternoon`s press conference, our partnership with the media has just been outstanding. We have developed a number of significant leads to this point, and we are very optimistic with regards to the search for Mr. Tinnemeyer.

GRACE: Do you think there is a chance he is still alive, Captain?

CANNITO: We will absolutely not speculate on anything along those lines. It is our sincerest hopes and prayers that we find this child in good condition.

GRACE: Look at this little boy, everybody. Little 6-year-old Cole Puffinburger, taken out of his home. Why? Police now believe because his grandfather is embroiled with the Mexican drug cartel.

To Dr. Glass, to be taken out of the home must be so incredibly traumatic for this child.

LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "I KNOW WHAT YOU`RE THINKING": Oh, it must be just awful for him. But one of the things that is little hopeful is that his father was interviewed, and said that he is the feisty little boy, and hopefully he`ll fight back and give them a run for their money, so to speak.

GRACE: Give a drug cartel a run for their money?

GLASS: Not well-chosen words. But.

GRACE: No, no.

GLASS: But basically, he`ll be very feisty, and at least he`ll maybe stick up for himself.

GRACE: OK. Sergeant Haines, we`re talking about a 6-year-old and a drug cartel.

SGT. SCOTT HAINES, SHERIFF`S OFFICER, SANTA ROSA COUNTY, FL: Yes. These are extremely dangerous people, and he -- God be with this kid. I feel horrible for him and his family, and hopefully the grandfather will be found quickly, so he can -- he`s the one link -- he`s the one link that could hopefully.

GRACE: You`re right. You`re right.

HAINES: . identify these people.

GRACE: He is the only link.

Everybody, as we go to break, congratulations to Georgia friends of the show, Clay and Elizabeth, welcoming their newest little crime fighter, Emma Hope. Look at her, getting lots of cuddling and attention from big sister Katherine and grandparents, Dr. William and Patty Oliver.

And at your request, here are pictures of the twins. I hope you like them. I`ll post them on the Web tonight.

Here`s Lucy at music class with her big brother, John David, and her grandmother. She is actually climbing a rope. With his father. Lucy. John David. And that`s from her grandmother Lynn, their new toys.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: There is still no trace of a 6-year-old boy kidnapped from his Las Vegas home early Wednesday morning. Police say Cole Puffinburger`s family was involved in the illegal drug trade, and his abductors were after significant money and drugs.

Las Vegas police said two men first identified themselves as police officers, tried to gain entry to the home, and then demanded money before kidnapping the youngster. The 6-year-old is described as 3`11", weighing 48 pounds, he has blonde hair, blue eyes, and as you can sigh, silver- rimmed glasses.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a very clear message -- the act of kidnapping this child. Tinnemeyer has stolen a large sum of money, all proceeds from illegal drug activity. They wanted to send a very clear message. Message sent, message received. They got the attention of an entire nation. We will not stop looking for this child.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Straight out to the lines, Peggy in Iowa. Hi, Peggy. I think I`ve got Peggy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love you, and I -- you know, I have been trying for months to get on your show.

GRACE: Well, welcome, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So I have a question and a comment.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First my comment is, you are an advocate and you are my hero. What -- it`s like all these little children are just like Caylee Anthony. All these children suffer for what the parents or grandparents do.

GRACE: They certainly are.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And it`s a real shame. And my question is, Hon, they said that the mother and the fiance were gagged and bound with like zip ties or something?

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How did they notify police?

GRACE: Excellent question.

Michelle Sigona with "America`s Most Wanted," how did they?

SIGONA: Well, if I`m not mistaken, Nancy, actually one of them were able to notify police, but, again, police are not saying for sure exactly the details what went on inside of the house.

But I can tell you that I did speak with Tinnemeyer`s -- a neighbor of his of more than a decade and what the neighbor tells me is that Tinnemeyer would often walk his grandson to kindergarten every day, and that he and his wife cared very much for this child and that they actually watched him during the daytime hours.

So if there is something that happens to this child, one would think and one would imagine, based on this conversation that I had with the neighbor that`s known him for a long time, that he is actually probably pretty concerned if he`s still around himself.

But, again, he is still missing.

GRACE: To Ky Plaskon with KXNT, what can you tell us?

PLASKON: It was an extremely dramatic situation. Nothing angers police more than somebody showing up at a door and pretending to be a cop. That`s what these guys did. She opened up the door, just a little bit, possibly and they just shoved their way right in.

As the caller said, they were bound, they were gagged, and according to a neighbor who heard some kind of screaming down the block, the mother managed to claw her way out of that house, and into her driveway, and scream out loud. And neighbors heard her and came to the rescue and called 911 right away, I believe, about 7:25 in the morning.

GRACE: To Stephanie in Nevada, hi, Stephanie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. My question, do they know if the mom had anything to do with it? Did the mom know that the grandfather was involved with that, or maybe if she or maybe the fiance was involved in the drugs along with the father?

GRACE: Ky, what do we know?

PLASKON: Well, apparently, everybody in the family, as far as knew -- and know knew that the -- grandfather was involved in some kind of drug dealing. And everybody is being looked at, according to police. Everybody except for the father, who just showed up out of nowhere, and was extremely upset by this.

But everybody in the family, including apparently Clemens Fred Tinnemeyer has a wife, as well, and she even knew. We got a caller at KXNT this morning that said that the family had shunned drugs, because of how involved Clemens was in the drug trade.

GRACE: To Kobe -- Dr. Koblinsky, what kind of forensic clues could we get from the scene, quickly?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: It`s a good question. I think the ligatures, the plastic restraints, could very well have -- at least partial fingerprints, and possibly even DNA.

And there may be other fingerprints, other types of evidence in the home. That is critical evidence, because that could lead to the identity of somebody, some person. I was in.

GRACE: Yes.

KOBILINSKY: Yes, I was in Mexico about a month ago, training the police there, 11 people were murdered as a result of drugs. Last year, 3,000 people were murdered due to the drug cartel.

GRACE: Quickly, to the lawyers, Penny Douglass Furr, Randy Kessler.

Randy, I.

RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: OK, I think Randy can`t hear us. Let`s try Penny.

Penny, I fully believe the family should be charged, too, if they exposed their child to drug trafficking?

PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: If they knew about it, definitely, Nancy. But those drug dealers have one reason to keep this child alive, and that`s to find the grandfather. So I think they need -- we need to find the grandfather, and they want their money. They will only release this child if they get their money.

GRACE: And now, "CNN HEROES."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN HEROES.

SUSAN SARANDON, ACTRESS: When I first met Rose, I was just so taken by her heart. She`s the story of the power of forgiveness.

I`m Susan Sarandon, and my hero fights for the survival and resettlement of refugees.

ROSE MAPENDO, COMMUNITY CRUSADER: I had seven children with me and my husband. I never, never thought that genocide can be happen in Congo. The truth, all the men that were killed, they put us in the prison, they were so angry for God.

When they found out I was pregnant, I said, God, accept my life, forgive me, I forgive those enemy. I amend my sins after the commanders tried to kill us, that day is the day I survive.

SARANDON: She`s dedicated her whole life to saving these refugees that have fallen through the cracks with Mapendo.

MAPENDO: Mapendo International is my heart, is my answer for my prayer.

SARANDON: What Rose has done is shown a great capacity to move on and to forgive and to embrace life.

ANNOUNCER: Vote now at CNN.com/heroes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and, more important, the people who touched our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today an experience (INAUDIBLE) grand jury has heard sworn testimony, and they returned a seven-count indictment against Casey Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Breaking news in the case of missing 3-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. An Orange County grand jury has indicted tot mom Casey Anthony for first-degree murder. And as a result the 22- year-old tot mom could be facing the death penalty.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It only took 30 minutes for this grand jury to decide that Casey Anthony should be charged with first-degree murder.

GRACE: You know it`s still amazing to me that throughout this entire ordeal never once have we heard her make a public plea for people to help her find her child.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Take a look at this picture of the boy. This is who police are looking for. They say that as many as three men knocked on the family`s door in Las Vegas yesterday morning. They claimed to be cops. The mom opened the door because of that. And that`s when these men burst in and demanded money.

When the intruders didn`t find any money, police say they tied up Cole`s mother and her fiance and they kidnapped Cole at gunpoint.

GRACE: I just heard a statement that somehow somebody in the home at some point in the past may have been involved in drugs. What do you know?

CANNITO: This is definitely a situation that is initiated due to a drug nexus.

GRACE: I`m sick that the conduct of adults.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight let`s stop to remember Army First Lieutenant Timothy Cunningham, 26, College Station, Texas, killed Iraq. Left studies at Texas A&M to attend West Point. Awarded the National Defense Service medal, Army Service Ribbon and Ranger Tab.

Loved family, country, God. Leaves behind parents John and Cindy, three sisters, one brother, also serving in Iraq, widow and high school sweetheart Samantha, baby girl Abigail.

Timothy Cunningham, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/17/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Search for Caylee Back On

Aired October 20, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 18 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. The search for Caylee is back on. After suddenly pulling out of Orlando with no cooperation from the Anthony family, Texas Equusearch is convinced they can help, heading back to Florida to pick up the search for little Caylee, and this time with back-up. A Sacramento bounty hunter rounds up fellow bounty hunters from across the country to join forces with Equusearch and find little Caylee. Key target, heavily- wooded areas near the Orlando International Airport and near the Anthony home.

This as mom Casey still under protective custody in a private jail cell, sleeping, reading, eating and lounging all day, according to reports. She pleads not guilty to murder one, as the defense team assembles itself, including a death penalty defense attorney, a veteran in the courtroom. Although mom Casey allowed to have photos in her jail cell, not one photo of Caylee on display. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More details emerge in the case of missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. As tot mom Casey Anthony awaits her day in court on charges of murder, manslaughter and aggravated child abuse, investigators say they will continue to search for the remains of little Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony, high-spirited party girl, living the "Sex and the City" lifestyle, with more than one man on the hook at one time, is now one of the loneliest women in central Florida. Accused of murdering her daughter, Caylee, to free herself of maternal encumbrances, she now finds herself not only childless but friendless. She can see out through a glass wall, but then everybody else can see in. this case, not by choice, the girl who posed for photos like this is on display 24/7.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This has gone so far downhill, this has become such a mess, we need to end it. It`s very simple. We just need to end it.

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: I agree with you. I have no clue where she is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure you do.

CASEY ANTHONY: If I knew, had any sense of where she was, this wouldn`t have happened at all.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: While Casey Anthony still refuses to cooperate with authorities and give them any clues as to her daughter`s whereabouts, Anthony`s lawyers are finalizing the defense team, hoping to keep the tot mom off of death row.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, a 6-year-old little boy kidnapped at gunpoint from his own home, his family left bound and gagged behind, 6-year-old Cole Puffinburger found alive -- repeat, alive -- wandering alone on the Vegas strip. Police and feds confirm the boy`s kidnap connected to a notorious Mexican drug cartel and millions of dollars stolen. As we go to air, a second arrest goes down, the manhunt still on for the other suspects in the kidnap of 6-year-old little Cole.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cole Puffinburger has been found. He is safe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you so much for helping me find my son!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Four days after police say men posing as police officers stormed into Cole`s house, tied up his mother and her fiance and kidnapped him, the 48-pound, blue-eyed blond has come home, police saying it was all triggered by Cole`s grandfather, who`s now being held as a material witness, that he stole millions from drug traffickers from Mexico, then disappeared, and that those dealers had resorted to violence to get it back.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just moments ago, the FBI announced a woman was taken into custody in the abduction of 6-year-old Cole Puffinburger. Terry Levi (ph), the girlfriend of Cole`s grandfather, Clemens Tinnemeyer, is considered a material witness in the case, and both were scheduled to appear in federal court today.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Their search for Cole`s kidnappers and their investigation into the drug operation are far from over.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every person involved in this family, in this investigation, friends -- there`s a very vast network out there that are under review right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening, I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New developments in the case of missing 3-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Investigators with the Orange County sheriff`s office say they will continue to search for Caylee Marie, hoping to find clues that could lead to the remains of the young child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to remind everyone that we have not achieved our primary objective in this investigation. We have not recovered little Caylee Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s alone about 20 hours a day in her cell. She eats alone there. Today, it was corn flakes for breakfast, turkey hot dogs and beans for lunch, Salisbury steak, gravy and potatoes for dinner. She does get dessert three times a day, if she wants. She can have photographs on her shelf in her cell, but we are told there are no photographs, not even of Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bounty hunter Leonard Padilla has announced his intention to return to Florida to assist Texas Equusearch in their hunt to find little Caylee. As tot mom Casey Anthony`s defense team prepares to go to trial, Anthony remains behind bars on no bond after being indicted for capital murder, aggravated manslaughter, aggravated child abuse and four other charges.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. Suddenly, Equusearch is coming back to search. Why the about-face?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: I talked to Leonard Padilla over the weekend by phone, and he says he will team up with Equusearch starting November 8. They will have a massive search in the -- around an area near the Orlando airport, a heavily wooded area where they couldn`t get to a couple of weeks ago because of storms, water left over by Tropical Storm Fay. They are going to find Caylee Anthony one way or another. Leonard Padilla has reached out to other bail bondsmen, saying, Come to Orlando, we need your help. This is going to be a massive search, at least a thousand people being involved, Nancy.

GRACE: But why the about-face? We just heard right here on our show a couple of days ago from Tim Miller, the head of Texas Equusearch, that he was pulling up stakes because of lack of cooperation from the Anthony family. Now about-face. Why?

WILLIAMS: Well, I think what has happened over the past couple of days is Tim Miller from Equusearch had other fish to fry. He had other cases to go on. He`s already spent $44,000 on this search, and now with the help of Leonard Padilla and his bail bondsmen friends and thousands of people, they are going to find something one way or another. And I think that`s what changed Tim`s mind.

GRACE: Out to Kathi Belich with CNN affiliate WFTV. What can you tell us, Kathi?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, I talked with Mr. Miller actually a few days ago when he said he was coming back here, and he said that he thinks there`s still a lot of interest in finding Caylee. As you just heard, he`s expecting a thousand people. And finances were probably a concern, as well. And now that Leonard Padilla is going to help raise the money for that, I think he`s changed his mind and he`s coming back.

GRACE: I want to find out about this new defense team. What can you tell me, Kathi Belich?

BELICH: Well, Baez`s PR person put out a release today saying they`re still getting that together They`re not making any comments. But there`s a new attorney, a south Florida attorney, who is death-qualified, who visited Casey over the weekend in jail Saturday night. His name is Terence Michael Lenamon, and he has handled a couple of high-profile cases in south Florida. Again, Baez won`t say whether he`s part of the team yet or not.

GRACE: Let`s take a look at who he has represented in the past. Here`s Delhall. That was about the murder of a witness in a case involving a victim. There you see that person. He got the death penalty. Cesar Mena, convicted of murder and attempted second degree murder. Next case. Oh, yes, that was a teenage couple, that he raped the young lady and killed both her and the boyfriend. And here is Braddy. He murdered the mom and left a 5-year-old little girl on Alligator Alley. The little girl, the 5- year-old, was eaten and killed by alligators.

Now, these are the people this guy has represented. Agree, disagree, Mark Williams?

WILLIAMS: ... the baddest of the bad, I`ll tell you that. I was looking over those cases, and they`re just horrendous cases. That`s what happens in south Florida. And he has an interesting case right here, if he decides to take the -- take the case, because she has not talked. There`s a problem with credibility. And this thing has had a lot of media play, Nancy.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. But right now, take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony, high-spirited party girl, living the "Sex and the City" lifestyle with more than one man on the hook at one time, is now one of the loneliest women in central Florida. Accused of murdering her daughter Caylee to, free herself of maternal encumbrances, she now finds herself not only childless but friendless. She can see out through a glass wall, but then everybody else can see in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No one has privacy in jail.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s alone about 20 hours a day in her cell. She eats alone there. Today, it was corn flakes for breakfast, turkey hot dogs and beans for lunch, Salisbury steak, gravy and potatoes for dinner. She does get dessert three times a day, if she wants. She can have photographs on her shelf in her cell, but we are told there are no photographs, not even of Caylee. No one in her family has asked to visit her over the last week, and she`s made no phone calls. It`s no party here for Casey.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, I guess not. To Kathi Belich, joining us from WFTV. Is it true, the reports that she eats, sleeps, reads and lounges all day long?

BELICH: That`s -- it is true. That`s about all she does. I understand she has three meals a day. I couldn`t find out whether she eats everything, but she has the option of having dessert three times a day. And she basically spends the day by herself. She has recreation for an hour a day, again alone, whatever she wants to do. Yes, she`s pretty much lounging, reading and sleeping all day long.

GRACE: Now, what can you tell me about the fact that she`s allowed to have photos up, but nothing of little Caylee?

BELICH: Yes, she has a shelf that`s on the wall and a desk in her cell, and she`s allowed to have photos in that cell, on that desk, on that shelf, and she has no photos at all. No photos of Caylee in there.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Angie in Virginia. Hi, Angie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. You`re my hero. I love you.

GRACE: Thank you. I certainly do not deserve that. But thank you. What is your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will it make it harder to seek the death penalty against Casey without Caylee`s body, which she very much desires?

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Susan Moss out of New York, Anne Bremner, high-profile lawyer out of Seattle, and Christopher Amolsch out of Washington. Susan?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: It will make it more difficult, but I don`t think it will make it impossible. Look, these aren`t the bars that Casey is used to, but she`ll have a long time to get used to them now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kovach says the woman definitely looked like Casey Anthony, wearing the big straw hat, big red sunglasses, and he says she had a shovel and a bag.

PAUL KOVACH, TIPSTER: Trying to get the bag and the shovel into the trunk, she darn near knocked her hat off her head, ran her head into the car and everything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey is going through a nightmare.

CASEY ANTHONY: There`s that chance that I might not see Caylee again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She has a missing child.

CASEY ANTHONY: I have no clue where she is. I`m absolutely petrified.

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: My focus is always on my granddaughter. It always will be.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: It just seemed like -- from our perspective, it seemed like from day one, you guys were building a case against Casey as a murderer, which is not...

(CROSSTALK)

CINDY ANTHONY: One thing I know is she loves that child!

CASEY ANTHONY: I just want my daughter back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More details emerge in the case of missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. As tot mom Casey Anthony awaits her day in court on charges of murder, manslaughter and aggravated child abuse, investigators say they will continue to search for the remains of little Caylee. Bounty hunter Leonard Padilla says he will be returning to Orlando to assist for the search of the toddler, last seen by her grandfather on June 16. While Casey Anthony still refuse to say cooperate with authorities and give them any clues as to her daughter`s whereabouts, Anthony`s lawyers are finalizing the defense team, hoping to keep the tot mom off of death row.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Lisa in Indiana. Hi, Lisa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, Nancy. How are you tonight?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I was -- I`m calling -- could you tell me, have anyone checked into the items that she -- that Casey bought from Target?

GRACE: What do you mean, checked into them?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Like, checked into where she delivered the packages, like, the paper towels and all the other stuff that she bought?

GRACE: And what significance would that be to you, Lisa? What would that mean to you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I figured that she used the paper towels to clean up the murder scene.

GRACE: Interesting. What do we know about that, Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO? It`s my understanding that the shopping spree was well after when police believe little Caylee was murdered.

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Yes, that was actually closer to when she was arrested. And one of the things we do know is a lot of times, she would show up at her boyfriend`s house with bags of groceries. We know at least on two or three occasions that she did that. So as far as what happened to each individual thing that we -- that she bought, we don`t know about that. But we do know she would a lot of times show up at her boyfriend`s house with groceries.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Let`s go back to the lawyers with Angie in Virginia`s question, Susan Moss out of New York, child advocate, high-profile lawyer out of Seattle Anne Bremner, and Christopher Amolsch, defense attorney out of Washington, D.C. To Anne Bremner. The question was, will it be harder, more difficult to get the death penalty if little Caylee`s remains are never found? Thoughts?

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely. She does not want to pick an attorney for the damned (ph), Nancy, and she needs to have somebody that has not only death penalty experience but doesn`t have their own memorial wing on death row. That`s the first thing.

But no body? Weaker case. Everyone says you can prosecute without a body, but none of us can deny that that is a tougher case for the prosecution. And with the search still going -- whether it`s rescue mission or recovery, a search is ongoing, and that`s going to be a tough go for the prosecution with a good defense lawyer at the helm.

GRACE: Amolsch?

CHRISTOPHER AMOLSCH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Forget the death penalty, they`re going to have a hard time getting a murder conviction at all. I mean, there is just no evidence that she killed her little girl at all. None. It`s all speculation.

GRACE: OK. Yes, let me see Amolsch. So you don`t believe in cadaver dogs or -- I personally trained at Oak ridge Labs in Tennessee, where the body farm is located, and it is the cutting edge of technology. You don`t believe that, either. There was a dead body in that car, so who do you think it was, Christopher?

AMOLSCH: Well, maybe there was a dead body, but it necessarily wasn`t her daughter. And we don`t even know...

GRACE: Oh, OK.

AMOLSCH: ... that that`s what the dog alerted on. We know the dog alerted on something.

GRACE: Please put Amolsch back up. I actually want to see him as he suggests...

AMOLSCH: Yes. Absolutely.

GRACE: ... there`s another dead person in the trunk.

AMOLSCH: I`m not saying -- I`m not saying that there was another dead person in the trunk. All I`m...

GRACE: Well, then, what are you saying?

AMOLSCH: What I`m saying is there is no evidence that Caylee...

GRACE: You can`t...

AMOLSCH: ... that Casey...

GRACE: You can`t claim it wasn`t Caylee and it wasn`t another dead person and you believe in science.

AMOLSCH: What I can say -- what I can say is that there`s no proof that Casey is the one who did it.

GRACE: OK. So...

AMOLSCH: There`s no proof that Casey is the one that did it.

GRACE: OK. Let me ask you this, OK? You`ve got three choices. It was Caylee`s dead body, it was another person`s dead body, or you do not believe in the science at Oak Ridge, Tennessee, crime lab and cadaver dogs.

AMOLSCH: Those aren`t the only choices.

GRACE: Give me another choice.

AMOLSCH: They have to prove that Casey did it.

GRACE: No, no! No!

AMOLSCH: ... not that Caylee`s dead.

GRACE: No, no! No! No!

AMOLSCH: They have to prove that...

GRACE: Amolsch!

AMOLSCH: ... Casey did it.

GRACE: Hey! Listen!

AMOLSCH: I understand your question...

GRACE: What`s the other choice?

AMOLSCH: The other question -- the question...

GRACE: Buh-buh-buh-buh-buh...

AMOLSCH: ... the way that you phrased it...

GRACE: The other choice!

AMOLSCH: That isn`t the only question, though.

GRACE: No, you said there are other choices. What are they?

AMOLSCH: The other choice is that she didn`t do it.

GRACE: No, no! No, no!

AMOLSCH: That doesn`t mean that Caylee`s not dead...

GRACE: No, no~!

AMOLSCH: ... and it wasn`t her body in the car...

GRACE: That is an argument, Mr. Amolsch...

AMOLSCH: ... but that she didn`t do it.

GRACE: Let`s deal with the facts. The facts are that a cadaver dog hit on the trunk, that the body farm, which is Oak Ridge lab, Tennessee, crime lab, says that there was human -- there were human remains. There is a hair in the back that has a death band on it, according to reports. That proves to many scientists that the hair is from a deceased body. Now, either it was Caylee, it was somebody else, or you do not accept the science. You said there`s another choice. What would that choice be?

AMOLSCH: What the other choice would be is that let`s assume that it is Caylee. That doesn`t mean that Casey did it, which is really...

GRACE: I didn`t say that.

AMOLSCH: ... the central question here.

GRACE: I didn`t say that.

AMOLSCH: What I said...

GRACE: I asked you...

AMOLSCH: ... was the government is going to have...

GRACE: You said there were...

AMOLSCH: ... a hard time proving...

GRACE: ... other choices, and I`d like to hear what they are.

AMOLSCH: The other choices are Casey didn`t do it.

GRACE: OK...

AMOLSCH: She is on the trial for the murder of her daughter.

GRACE: Mr. Amolsch, thanks a lot.

AMOLSCH: That doesn`t mean her daughter...

GRACE: But just repeating the same incorrect answer isn`t really helping. What about it, Susan Moss?

MOSS: Juries understand and believe in science. Not only do you have the cadaver dogs hits, not only do you have the death band in the hair, not only do you have the decomposing body in the air, but you have a person of interest who has lied from day one. She left without even taking a single piece of clothing of her daughter~!

GRACE: Now, let`s move on to Christopher Amolsch`s next hypothesis, which actually is true. If there -- if it was Caylee, the state`s got to prove it, obviously, Anne Bremner.

BREMNER: Yes.

GRACE: Now, since she was last seen with child, what would your scenario be as a defense attorney about how the child was killed?

BREMNER: Well, you know, as a defense attorney in this case, I would try a reasonable doubt case, Nancy. I would not put my client on the stand, and I would simply say the state has to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt. And Nancy...

GRACE: OK. So that`s your whole strategy.

BREMNER: No, it`s not my whole strategy. I want to say, in my next life, I want to come back as one of your callers and not one of your guests because you are tough, Nancy, but -- and we all know that, but...

GRACE: Coming from you, I`ll take that as a compliment. Amolsch...

BREMNER: It is a compliment.

GRACE: ... what would your strategy be?

BREMNER: My strategy would...

AMOLSCH: I`m sorry. Is that for me, Nancy?

BREMNER: Oh, I`m sorry. Go ahead.

AMOLSCH: Was that for me? I`m sorry. Was that for me?

BREMNER: It was, I think.

AMOLSCH: I`m sorry. I think she`s exactly right, but the problem is her lawyer has said that we`re going to hear from Casey about what really happened, so I`m not sure she can`t go on the stand at this point.

GRACE: She absolutely cannot go on the stand. She`d be ruined on cross-exam. He should not have committed to that up front...

AMOLSCH: I agree.

GRACE: ... but the jury will never know that.

AMOLSCH: I agree.

GRACE: The jury won`t know that he blurted that out, will they, Christopher?

AMOLSCH: Well, they`re going to read the newspapers and watch your show, like everybody else.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kovach says he wanted to see if the woman needed help, but his friend would only slow down as the woman walked out of the wooded area wearing a large straw hat, where a bridge of old tires is the only access to railroad tracks, very secluded railroad tracks.

KOVACH: That area right there is where she was coming out of the woods with a shovel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I feel that my daughter from day one has gotten -- you know, she has been a victim just as much as Caylee has.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK. Caylee is likely dead. She`s not as much a victim as little Caylee.

Out to bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California, Leonard Padilla, who is rounding up other bounty hunters to come search for little Caylee. Leonard, why the about-face with Equusearch? Why are they coming back? And what prompted you to join them?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, I think there was a lot of weather conditions that were involved. And basically, in discussing this thing with Tim, we`re going to make what we consider to be an optimum search. We`re going to have Nick Savage (ph) from the FBI working with us. We`re going to have the ping masters out of the sheriff`s office working with us. And let me tell you, if everybody that listens to you was to send in $5 to you, Nancy Grace at CNN, for Tim Miller, that would be -- that`d put him over the top as far as the finances that he needs because that`s where he`s hurting sometimes, in the financing of this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Casey Anthony, high-spirited party girl, living the sex-in-the-city lifestyle, with more than one man on the hook at one time, is now one of the loneliest women in central Florida.

Accused of murdering her daughter, Caylee, to free herself of maternal encumbrances, she now finds herself, not only childless, but friendless. She can see out through a glass wall, but then, everybody else can see in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No one has privacy in jail.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Kovach says the woman definitely looked like Casey Anthony, wearing the big straw hat, big red sunglasses, and he says she had a shovel and a bag.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trying to get the bag and the shovel into the trunk. She darn near knocked her hat off her head, ran her head into the car, and everything.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Welcome back. We are taking your calls live. Out to Mandy Albritton, the deputy director of Texas Equusearch, of course, we`re all thrilled that Texas Equusearch is coming back to search for little Caylee, doing an about-face.

If people want to contribute, Mandy, how would they do that?

MANDY ALBRITTON, DEPT. DIRECTOR, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH, SEARCHING FOR MISSING CAYLEE: Well, Nancy, they`re welcome to go to our Web site at www -- hello, www.txeq.com, and donate there.

GRACE: And tell me, what prompted Tim to decide to come back and resume the search?

ALBRITTON: Well, we never finished our search the first time we were out. There was 30 to 35 percent of our search area under water. That was a big factor in it. Also, Mr. Padilla helping finance the search has helped us continue.

GRACE: So Leonard, how many people do you think you can round up?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPING IN SEARCH FOR CAYLEE: I`m hoping to round up 500 people out of the bail bond industry. So far, at least 20 or 30 without prompting have called and said, "When are you going to be back there?" And I said I`ll be back to 5th or the 6th of November.

And so far, like I said, we`ve had 30 or 40 phone calls. I`m hoping for at least 500 out of the United States, out of the bail bond industry, and bounty hunters, I`m just really hoping that that`s what we`ll get.

GRACE: To Dr. David M. Posey joining us out of L.A., he`s a medical examiner and forensic pathologist with the Glen Oaks Pathology Medical Group.

Dr. Posey, thank you for being with us. What are the dangers to the remains with people searching for them, out in the wilderness?

DR. DAVID M. POSEY, MEDICAL EXAMINER, GLEN OAKS PATHOLOGY MEDICAL GROUP: Well, I think the biggest problem is an unexperienced (sic) investigator could disturb the remains and disturb the scene.

So if they come on something that might be suspicious, you know, note it -- if they have a camera, photographing, going -- get an authority who used to examining the scene and take them there.

Just -- the thing is do no harm by moving nothing, because once you disturb a scene, you can never put the scene back exactly the way it was.

GRACE: And Dr. Posey, at this point, after the heavy, heavy flooding in that area, if the remains had been out in the open, what would you expect to find now?

POSEY: I think with weather conditions here in the last couple of months, I think there could be a great deal of deterioration, especially if she was out in the open.

The water conditions, wet heat, the body was going to decay and decompose much more rapidly. Availability to the animals. So I think the body could be separated in many pieces, scattered over a large area.

GRACE: But to Brian Reich, deputy chief out of the Bergen County Sheriff`s Office, at this point, they`re left with either the volunteers that Equusearch and Leonard Padilla are rounding up or nothing. So, you know, it`s either volunteer manpower, people that are not experts in searching, or nothing.

BRIAN REICH, DEPUTY CHIEF, BERGEN COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Yes, and - - that`s the situation we`re in, but it`s very, very important, like the doctor just said, that the people that are out there searching get some kind of briefing and some training. What to do if you come across something you feel has evidentiary value, that they don`t disturb it, that they also document the chain of custody.

Once they find something that could have some value, it`s very important that they document the exact location, the time, who found it, and then continue with that chain of custody, so that it can be turned over to the authorities and the chain of custody and all of the evidentiary value is maintained.

GRACE: To Bill in Florida, hi, Bill. Oh-oh, hold on. No Bill. Connie -- do I have Bill now?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I`m here.

GRACE: Hi, Bill, what`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just a little quick question. I can`t see her just doing this, you know, out of the blue at her age. I wonder what led up to this being a child, maybe. Well, my comment is, I have children. And I don`t care if they`re 1 or 21, I always think about when I go to a store.

And what day was she shopping into reference of when they think their child was gone? Because I think if there`s anything in that bag -- in that basket from her from Wal-Mart or whatever, if approximate there is nothing in there for her child, then it`s over. She knew it was over. She never.

GRACE: Bill, you are so correct.

I`m going to go back to Mark Williams at WNDB. You know, Mark, this weekend, I went shopping. It was all at Toys R Us.

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Yes.

GRACE: You know, the thought of me going to get, what? Clothes? A shoe? For what? When you have children, that`s what you want to -- that`s what you want to shop for. There was not one thing in her bag for little Caylee.

WILLIAMS: Yes, we saw the receipt that she got, and it was all for either herself or her boyfriend. And I talked to a lot of people over the past couple of days, Nancy, and they can`t believe that whenever they go shopping, whether it`s a piece of gum, a piece of candy or whatever, they always get something for the child, for their child.

But there was nothing here. And you know, an investigator called her "cold as a cucumber."

GRACE: And -- the caller also mentioned, she didn`t just do this out of the blue. To

Dr. Lisa Boesky, psychologist and author of "When to Worry," joining us out of San Diego. Dr. Boesky, thank you for being with us. But the reality is, a lot of killers have no record, no criminal history, they -- they don`t have an obvious troubled childhood.

Look at Scott Peterson. His parents doted on him.

LISA BOESKY, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO WORRY": Well, that`s the thing. There is two types of killers that we see. One are the type that come from horrible, horrific backgrounds, a lot of abuse, sometimes satanic rituals, a lot of abandonment.

That doesn`t appear to be the case here.

The other type we see is we`re not sure if they`re actually born this way, where they actually are colder, more callous, they don`t have the emotional reactions, and they don`t have the empathy that other people have. They can`t relate to other people. They don`t feel other people`s pain. They`re all about themselves.

GRACE: So that -- unlike what the caller said, there`s no indication she was ever mistreated as a child.

In fact, Kathi Belich with WFTV, you have this look of her life behind bars, and now we learn the only person that`s put money in her account is her father, 50 bucks, for her to get things out of the vending machines and all.

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: That`s right. They`re still standing by her now and going into a little more about why this happened. We have information that it may have been as simple as a vacation she wanted to go on in Puerto Rico in July.

Back in March her friends were planning this vacation, and she wasn`t able to go, because, apparently, she wasn`t able to find a babysitter. And if you remember, back in March, that`s when she started looking up missing children`s Web sites, you know.

GRACE: You know, Kathi, her life behind bars now, explain to me again why she is still under protective custody.

BELICH: The jail says she sort of has celebrity status and when they have someone like that who`s very high-profile, they don`t want a disruption in the jail. They think it`s for her own safety, as well as the safety of the other inmates. They just don`t want disruption and that`s why.

She`s not getting special treatment. She`s just being kept away from anyone, so there is no disruption.

GRACE: Well, Leonard Padilla, a bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California, first put up her bond, to me, her life behind bars isn`t that much different from her life at home. She lays around all day, eating, reading, sleeping and lounging. She never worked.

I think I`ve got Padilla with me. Leonard Padilla, are you there?

PADILLA: Yes, I`m here, yes. I was just thinking, you know, of the statement that you just made, because when we were there with her at the time, the young lady that was with her basically described her life as just sitting around, not doing anything.

The fact is, the night that -- I just remembered. The night that my nephew actually posted the bond for her, she went into the kitchen, and she fixed him dinner.

GRACE: Who -- wait. Who went into the kitchen and fixed dinner?

PADILLA: Casey fixed my nephew dinner when he was filling out the paperwork for her bond, the same evening that he bonded her out. And I thought to myself, if it was the first time that somebody hits the street after being in jail for 30 days and you`re accused of killing your child, how can you go in there and fix the bondsman dinner that just got you out of jail?

GRACE: Well, she is icy cold.

PADILLA: It`s impetuous.

GRACE: That`s one thing. And I don`t know if the jury would pick up on that.

Everybody, the search set to resume, but quickly, to tonight`s case alert. The search for a 20-year-old woman vanishing, Greenville, North Carolina.

Ashley Hawley -- take a look -- last seen Wednesday, around midnight, orange t-shirt, blue pants. Family unable to contact her ever since. She is 5`7", 140 pounds.

Take a look, if you have info, please call the Greenville police, 252- 329-4335.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s just a blessing that this child has been found, and he`s in extremely good condition.

This investigation has been about a kidnapping. It has been about a 6-year-old child who was taken from his home in a very violent fashion. Now that that child has been found, the focus of this investigation has shifted to drug dealing, extortion.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Investigators say they believe that Cole`s kidnapping was in retaliation for some actions taken by his grandfather. They believe that he stole millions of dollars from drug traffickers from Mexico.

They want to know much more about that operation. They also are out there still looking for Cole`s kidnappers.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Another arrest, the girl friend of Clemens Tinnemeyer, Cole`s grandfather, brought in in a federal warrant in Riverside, California.

ROBERT PUFFINBURGER, MISSING BOY`S FATHER: I`m just glad he`s safe and he`s -- back home and in the right hands.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, I want to make it very clear. The entire time that we were investigating this kidnapping, that`s exactly what this case was about -- was a kidnapping.

As we progressed in our investigation, we`ve all heard the information coming out about the drug dealing and the people that are involved, and all of the other side bar issues that we`ve been addressing.

The investigation regarding this child is concluded. The remainder of the investigation shifts, and our focus now goes on to the drug dealing, to potential extortion issues, as well as other issues certainly that are involved in this investigation at this time.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Straight out to Ky Plaskon with KXNT News Radio, Ky, it is a miracle, this little 6-year-old boy taken out of his home, his family left behind, bound and gagged, has been found alive, wandering the Vegas strip.

Tell me what happened.

KY PLASKON, REPORTER, KXNT NEWS RADIO: Well, he wasn`t actually out on the Vegas strip. He was found on a side street, it was about five miles or so from the Las Vegas strip or so. A very dark street, residential neighborhood, a pretty nice neighborhood for being as close to the strip as it is.

Apparently, he was there about 10:30 in the afternoon -- at night, and a bus driver was driving up the road, saw this little kid walking down the street and he thought, oh, that`s pretty strange, I better find out what`s going on. He stopped and Cole asked him for a ride, can I have a ride?

And of course, the bus driver said yes. He called officers who happened to be just blocks away, conducting a SWAT operation. But two officers showed up immediately, found that he was in a great -- great condition. He was taken to a hospital, found to be fine there, too, and then delivered to his family.

GRACE: Ky, I heard it mentioned, extortion? Now how does that figure in?

PLASKON: I think that`s probably a better question for your legal experts, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, what are the possibilities? What do we know?

PLASKON: Well, somebody was trying to get money for this -- for this kid. So with -- we have a tendency to say that, you know, this drug cartel.

GRACE: What do you mean, somebody was trying to get money? Explain.

PLASKON: Well, he was held for ransom. So they -- were hoping to possibly get some money or find this -- the grandfather of this young boy.

GRACE: You know, that`s pretty bold, to Dr. Lisa Boesky, psychologist and author, to steal from a drug cartel?

BOESKY: Well, you know, it`s interesting. Down in Mexico, this is actually not that uncommon. I think that they may have thought, hey, let`s do this, let`s find the grandfather, get these millions of dollars.

But I have to say, Nancy, given the coverage you`ve done with Casey Anthony, I have a feeling once this kid showed up on your show and they found out the national attention, they`re like, whoa, this is a bad idea and they dropped this kid off.

GRACE: Now how did the grandfather weigh into all this, Ky Plaskon?

PLASKON: Well, he supposedly was driving around going to storage units where they had massive amounts of money. The FBI picked him up on Friday in the evening. They possibly had a bunch of storage units, staked out.

Here in Las Vegas there were also storage units that police served warrants on and found large amounts of cash. But apparently he was going to these storage units and collecting millions of dollars. He has been accused of using that money, laundering it, for the drug cartel, Nancy.

GRACE: So he was going from one spot to the next, re-claiming all this money?

PLASKON: Picking up this drug money. What I told you in the past is that often drug dealers, what they use -- they collect very small bills, collect them in large amounts and then they`ll pay somebody to come here to Las Vegas with these small bills, and put them into the slot machines and convert them into very large bills, which can be easily -- smuggled back across the border down to Mexico.

GRACE: Sources state there was $8 to $20 million at stake, and this little boy kidnapped, apparently, until the drug cartel got their money back.

Now we heard Lisa Boesky state that this is not unusual in Mexico. What about it, Brian Reich?

REICH: It`s very common in some South American countries and in Mexico. It`s not as prevalent here. But certainly, organized crime figures going after people`s families, making threats, and sending a message that you`re going to steal -- you`re going to steal from us, we can reach out and touch you.

And I think that was certainly part of the motivation in this particular case.

GRACE: So, Ky, what`s the next step, and where is the boy tonight?

PLASKON: Well, I`d like to tell you a little bit. He`s back at home, as I just said, but I`d like to tell you a little bit about.

GRACE: Well, is he with his mother or his father?

PLASKON: We believe that he is with his mother, currently.

GRACE: Go ahead.

PLASKON: Well, we have this tendency to think, OK, well, the drug dealers dropped him off on this street, he`s fine, what nice drug cartel. What we haven`t heard yet is what SWAT`s involvement was in this, and apparently this was an extraordinary operation.

Veterans of SWAT here in Las Vegas have never seen a SWAT operation this large. They -- said it was the equivalent to psychological warfare here in Las Vegas, where they had unbelievable pressure on possible drug dealers, the drug cartel here in Las Vegas, where they hit houses simultaneously, seconds apart.

They were actually on 15th Street conducting one of these operations, when Cole was found, so only a few blocks away. They put credible pressure on this group and the impression was that Metro wasn`t going to stop.

The psychological pressure was that they were telling these people in these houses what -- you`re not going to get anything for this young boy. There`s no money there anymore. You might as well just let him go. And that`s exactly what they did.

GRACE: You know there is one man we know still wanted, Jesus Gastelum, what do we know about him?

PLASKON: They`re not really telling us anything about him. They put out a picture out there and hope that we`re going to find him, just like we ended up finding Clemens. The FBI is really out in front on this. They`re the ones who were really making the arrests at the moment. The police department is just kind of putting the pictures out there.

GRACE: Right.

PLASKON: . and hoping we`re going to find them.

GRACE: It`s our information, Ky, that the little boy, Cole, is now with his father. He had been living with his mother in the same home where, apparently, the grandfather, who`s involved with the drug cartel, also had been up until May.

That is not the case tonight. He is with his father. So there`s apparently been a much-needed, apparently, change in custody.

And very quickly, Ky Plaskon, last but not least, what can you tell me about the people that actually did the kidnapping?

PLASKON: Well, we don`t know much about them at all. We don`t know anything about them at all. We`re hoping to find out in the future here from the FBI, from the police department, and from SWAT as they go through and knock down these criminals.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PUFFINBURGER: We had stopped passing out flyers for the night, you know, because we wanted to catch some news and stuff like that, and we were just sitting down and just got called and, we got him. I was like, you`ve got who? "Your son!" I was like, "All right!" And I just booked it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is a definite drug nexus. We are very clear Mr. Tinnemeyer was involved in drug activity. That has been established early on in this investigation. Large amounts of cash have been involved.

As I told you the other night, several executed -- several search warrants were executed. Large amounts of cash were recovered during those search warrants.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: :Let`s unleash the lawyers, out to you, Anne Bremner, I don`t even let smokers around the twins.

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.

GRACE: And this mom had in the home a guy who owed about $20 million to a Mexican drug cartel?

BREMNER: That`s pretty bad. You know, but the thing is, in a case like this, we have to look at who`s going to be charged, Nancy. And we look at the grandpa -- we have some pretty extensive laws since the Lindbergh kidnapping on -- kidnapping, including some very broad language on embezzling, enticing ,et cetera.

GRACE: OK. Break it down, Anne.

BREMNER: I`ll break it down.

GRACE: Are you trying to say there are going to be other charges?

BREMNER: No, I think this is kind of like a criminal law, law school exam in terms of it`s a very difficult issue.

GRACE: Susan?

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely. But I just hope his father goes after custody. Because if this mother knew or should have known that there was drug activity in this house, she`s equally culpable, and at the very least this child should not have the trauma of being in the place where he was kidnapped.

GRACE: Chris, I`d like to come to you, but we must leave on that note.

I want to stop to remember Army Staff Sergeant Ronald Blystone, 34, Springfield, Missouri, killed Iraq, on a third tour. Awarded two Bronze Stars, two National Defense Service Medals, two Army Service Ribbons.

Once featured on the cover of "U.S. News and World Report." Never met a stranger. Loved scuba diving, football, Kansas City Chiefs, and being a dad. Leaves behind parents Alexia and Lonie, Joe, three brothers, one serving Iraq and four sisters.

Ronald Blystone, American hero.

Thanks for our guests but especially to you for being with us, and a special happy birthday to our stars, Drew, and happy birthday to our other star, Jillian, both on our staff.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp, Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/20/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Child Neglect Charge Dropped Against Casey Anthony

Aired October 21, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 18 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell tonight. The state drops charges against tot mom Casey Anthony after a Florida grand jury hands down seven-count indictment on murder one, aggravated child abuse, aggravated manslaughter, and of course, lying to police. The state drops a major charge of child neglect. The defense has yet to file motions for a change of venue or even a speedy trial, and not a single move has been made for the defense to test any of the forensic evidence.

More money shows up in mom Casey`s jail account, clearing the way for snacks, make-up, shoes, lingerie, hair and skin care products. Also, tot mom Casey Anthony continues her routine, sleeping, reading, eating, lounging all day long in a private jail cell while the search outside goes on for her little girl. So far, Anthony`s family not making a single visit to the jail. Why? Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I have no clue where she is.

I`m absolutely petrified.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After indicting tot mom Casey Anthony on capital murder and six other charges, prosecutors have decided to drop the original charge of child neglect that Anthony was arrested on back in July.

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: She`s not -- one thing I know is she loves that child!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The state says that Anthony was initially charged with child neglect on the grounds that Caylee was still alive. However, as the investigation moved forward and evidence was collected, it became obvious that Caylee is now likely dead.

GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING TODDLER: My granddaughter is alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meanwhile, Casey Anthony`s defense team has added a high-profile Miami attorney with death penalty experience.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: She said, Lee, do you want to know the truth? I haven`t seen Caylee in 31 days.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, a gorgeous young morning show TV anchor brutally stabbed in her own bed, left for dead. Tonight, as she clings to life, the police investigation in full force. Who attacked 26-year-old anchorwoman Anne Pressly?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Friends described Little Rock, Arkansas, anchorwoman Anne Pressly as a kind person, kind to everyone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tragic. She`s a wonderful person. She has a heart of gold. She`s good to everybody. And she`s touched so many lives.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But did she have an enemy who would leave her for dead in her own bed?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Miss Pressly was beaten severely. She also does have some stab wounds, and these injuries are life-threatening.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police want to know whether she was randomly attacked or targeted because of her celebrity status.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 3- year-old Florida girl, Caylee. The state drops charges against tot mom Casey Anthony.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Caylee`s missing! Caylee`s missing!

CASEY ANTHONY: My daughter`s been missing for the last 31 days.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The state has decided to drop the child neglect charge against tot mom Casey Anthony. Prosecutors say the neglect charge was centered around the theory that Caylee was alive. And based on the evidence, it`s now clear that the toddler is likely dead.

CINDY ANTHONY: I`ve lost my granddaughter, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we`re looking for her.

CINDY ANTHONY: I lost my granddaughter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: The trunk was open. The windows were rolled down to -- what I assume, ventilate the horrible smell that I had just smelled for the first time. Whatever it was, it was very potent.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators say they will continue to search for little Caylee, who has not been seen since mid-June, while Casey Anthony`s defense team has just added a Miami attorney with death penalty experience, hoping to keep the tot mom away from lethal injection.

CINDY ANTHONY: Are you looking for a live Caylee or a dead Caylee?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re looking for Caylee because we don`t know where Caylee is.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m going to stand alongside my daughter, no matter what.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, a child neglect count has been dropped. Why?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, the big reason was, first off, that charge was filed back in July when Casey as first arrested because they were operating -- the state`s attorney`s office -- operating under the premise that the child was alive and well someplace, even though that she had been missing 31 days.

Now, just a couple of weeks ago, if you recall, the grand jury here in Orange County handed up those seven indictments, one of them being first degree murder, which obviously trumps the child neglect charge. Now they`re operating under the premise that little Caylee is now dead, Nancy.

GRACE: Mark, when you read the child neglect indictment, does it lay out exactly what they -- what they charge? Did they charge, for instance, that she didn`t report the child missing or that she handed a child over to someone she was not familiar with? Did they lay out the facts of the neglect?

WILLIAMS: Well, if you take a look at Florida law under neglect, it`s -- you neglect a child when you don`t care for their physical wellbeing, you don`t treat them well, you maybe abuse them, things of that nature. And of course, she has told some tall tales about the -- Zenaida Gonzalez, leaving her with Zenaida Gonzalez, which -- nobody by that name exists, that she handed her off to. So in essence, she basically -- they considered her at the time abusing that child.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. We are taking your calls live. Joining us tonight, Susan Moss, child advocate out of New York, Raymond Giudice, defense attorney out of Atlanta, Pam Hayes out of New York. What about it, Sue Moss?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: The concept was that for those 31 days, the fact that she did not call the police constituted neglect. Now the theory is that on day one, this child was killed. So the concept is, you can`t neglect a dead body.

GRACE: What about it, Ray?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s right. The language in the first...

GRACE: I think I`ve got Ray Giudice with me. Ray, are you there?

GIUDICE: I am. I`m here.

GRACE: OK. Ray, what do you make of this? What about the theory that child neglect is a lesser charge of murder?

GIUDICE: I don`t believe that. And the facts are that in the indictment for child neglect, the child is presumed alive and seriously injured. Sue is right. It contradicts the superseding indictment that speaks of death in the capital charge, capital murder charge, and in the aggravated manslaughter charge. That`s inconsistent, and the state does not want to give the defense an easy out that some crazy jury may come back and find while the child could still be alive, it`s a neglect case.

GRACE: Pam?

PAM HAYES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t know. It seems pretty clear to me that they`re no longer pursuing the avenue of neglect. I think they`re just going to look at it as a straight murder case.

GRACE: OK. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Orange County officials will not pursue child neglect charges against Casey Anthony because the mother of missing toddler Caylee Anthony is already charged with first degree murder.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The team searching for Caylee is ramping up efforts, meanwhile, to find her. The FBI and thousands of volunteers are expected to be out looking in areas of interest near Orlando International Airport. Now, Caylee Anthony reportedly disappeared back in June, but she was not reported missing until a month later. She was never found, and authorities believe that she is, in fact, dead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is her life like behind bars? If you`re wondering, according to local affiliate WFTV, she spends about 20 hours a day alone in her cell at the Orange County jail. She hasn`t had a single visitor or made any phone calls, aside from her attorneys, and has no pictures on display in her cell, not even a single one of her daughter. It is allowed, though, to post them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Gwyn in Florida. Hi, Gwyn.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nancy, has anybody even thought about searching someplace other than Orlando? After all, she had an entire month to go someplace and dispose of that body.

GRACE: Yes, and isn`t it true -- to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG -- that she told various people that she had gone to Tampa, various places, looking for a job?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Yes, Nancy. She said that she traveled elsewhere, outside of Orlando. But investigators have been able to do some pretty good work with her cell phone, and they have been able to pin down the fact that she never left Orlando at any point in time. So she had to be in Orlando during that entire month.

GRACE: So what about it? To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter helping in the search for Caylee. What about the possibility that any remains of little Caylee is outside the Orlando area? I don`t see it.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: None. None. None whatsoever. She never left the Orlando area, like the young lady said. And I`ve got to tell you this. If you look at the ping maps that are right now in the possession of the FBI, the marshals and the sheriffs, and Rob Dick, you`ll see she never left the area. She`s never off that cell phone. Almost 800 phone calls between -- in that one period there that everybody`s looking at, and they all are in the Orlando area. Never left the area at all.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. Mike, I`m thinking about the big development today, that the state has actually dropped a charge, a major charge against tot mom Casey Anthony. You know, the old saying is, You can`t have your cake and eat it, too. It would have been great for the state if child neglect had been a lesser charge of murder. For instance, I charge you with murder...

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Right.

GRACE: ... the jury can come back with a manslaughter charge. It`s a lesser included. But their theory that they were proving child neglect on was that she didn`t report her missing, that she fabricated lies about the child to the police. That is inconsistent with murder. So I don`t know if the state is really losing anything by dropping this charge.

BROOKS: No, I don`t think they`re losing anything at all, Nancy. Everything at the time it was perceived -- you know, even though it was all a lie, that`s all they had to go on at that particular time. And they were just -- they were going on the fact that she possibly, possibly could still be alive. So no, they`re not losing anything. And keep in mind, she still has the fraud charges, you know, that are pending against her, too. I don`t think they`re going to drop those.

GRACE: You know, another thing -- back to you, Mike Brooks. I`m going back to Padilla in a moment. Brooks, have you noticed that when criminals are on the run, they always stay pretty much in the same area? I mean, you stake out their mom or their girlfriend`s house, boom, there they are. I just don`t see Casey Anthony leaving the area. And if you notice - - take a look at the Scott Peterson case. That`s an easy case to use.

BROOKS: Oh, yes. Absolutely.

GRACE: People go where they are familiar. He was a fisherman, he dumped a body in San Francisco Bay. Very, very simple equation.

BROOKS: Right. He went from his house to the golf course to San Francisco Bay, and then he went down to Fresno, where he was having his affair.

GRACE: And this is the area that she`s familiar with.

BROOKS: Absolutely. She`s very familiar with it. And they don`t leave very -- don`t leave far from home. And also, escapees, what do they do? They usually run back to Mama.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once a party girl, now Casey Anthony is a lonely girl behind bars. As mentioned, her family has not visited or called her since she went back in jail. She`s basically alone 20 hours a day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey`s allowed to hang pictures in her jail cell, but there`s not one single photo of Caylee on the walls in her cell. And also, new revelation, prosecutors are dropping the child neglect charges against her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: Casey began to break down and cry. And she said, Lee, do you want to know the truth? I haven`t seen Caylee in 31 days.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

TONY LAZZARO (ph), CASEY`S FORMER BOYFRIEND: I would just wake up in the middle of the night and see that she was sweaty in bed. She was having a nightmare or something.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: That`s when she opened up to me and said, Mom has thrown it in my face many times before that I`m an unfit mother, and you know, maybe she`s right. Maybe I am. (INAUDIBLE) Well, maybe this should have been done a long time ago.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you`re worried that if we find that out that people are going to look at you in the wrong way?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s alone about 20 hours a day in her cell. She eats alone there. Today, it was corn flakes for breakfast, turkey hot dogs and beans for lunch, Salisbury steak, gravy and potatoes for dinner. She does get dessert three times a day, if she wants. She can have photographs on her shelf in her cell, but we are told there are no photographs, not even of Caylee. No one in her family has asked to visit her over the last week. She`s made no phone calls. It`s no party here for Casey.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. The big news today, the state has dropped one of its major charges against tot mom Casey Anthony, that charge of child neglect. I`ve got it right here in my hands, the indictment. And this indictment on child neglect,remember, came down before the evidence showed a dead body had been in her car. And it charges her with failing to care, supervise, maintain the health of the little girl. Now, clearly, they believe that this is not consistent with a murder one charge. This charge supposes that little Caylee is still alive.

Now, we`ve also learned today that the tot mom has a huge array of things she can order behind bars. In fact, her account has been doubled. And now she can order all types of things. She can order underwear. She can order shrimp. She can order Cajun chicken. She can order crabmeat. She can order mascara, eyeliner, mouthwash, cocoa butter lotion, hair, skin products, chili, sports bras, playing cards, tennis shoes.

What`s with that, Drew Petrimoulx?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, I mean, now she`s got finally money in her account. She got $50 from her dad and another $50 from one of her bondsmen, so she does have money in her account. And these are the three pages right here, as you can see, and these is just a bunch of items. She can get everything from mayonnaise to lipstick, underwear to makeup. So I mean, she can buy once a week pretty much a ton of things imaginable.

GRACE: What about it, Sue Moss?

MOSS: Yes, there`s no recession in that jail. That looks like a variety of things that she can get for pretty -- pretty fair prices, and with $100 in her account, boy, she can go to town.

GRACE: To Mark Williams with WNDB. I understand that while behind bars, no visitors whatsoever. She had been spending up to six hours a day at her attorney`s office. Now he visits for less than an hour. What was she doing hole up in his conference room for six hours a day?

WILLIAMS: Well, that`s something that Mr. Baez has to talk about, but of course, he won`t since it`s attorney-client privilege. But is she was spending six hours a day, almost 30 hours a week, if not more, in her attorney`s office in nearby Kissimmee. Now she`s down to an hour a day. Last night, for example, attorney Baez stopped by the jail shortly after 10:00 o`clock, signed in. An hour later -- 58 minutes later, as a matter of fact, man, he`s on the road back to Kissimmee, to the house, because he just wanted to talk to her.

GRACE: To Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG. This is quite the facility that she is in. I understand they have television. She has free time, spends her whole day lounging, reading, eating and sleeping.

D`ONOFRIO: She does, Nancy. But I want to go back to her visitors. One of the visitors that she saw over the weekend is Lenamon, and Terry Lenamon is a very high-profile defense attorney in south Florida who`s very experienced with death penalty cases. He visited with her over the weekend, and he is going to be joining the defense team. He`s going to help out there because Casey`s attorney, Jose Baez, isn`t qualified to defend her in a capital murder case. And since Terry Lenamon has this experience, he`s now joined the team.

GRACE: We also learned that Tim Miller of Texas Equusearch is headed back to the area to search for little Caylee`s remains. To Tim Miller. He`s joining us right now from Raleigh, North Carolina. Tim, what changed your decision? You packed up and left after no cooperation from the Anthony family. Why are you coming back, and not only that, bringing volunteers along with you?

TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Well, Nancy, you know what? We made a commitment to Caylee in the very beginning. So many members of the community joined in on that search and actually became members of that search. And we`re going to live up to that commitment to Caylee and now to that community. You know, this is not about the Anthony family. You know, all the other stuff, we don`t have anything to do with. Our main focus is on Caylee.

And you know what, Nancy? Everything is working out for the best in our search right now. The water`s going down. It`s cooler now, so the searchers can, you know search, longer and harder. The vegetation is starting to leave us.

And I anticipate several thousand searchers. Nobody has lost interest. I think the conditions are ripe for finding that little body. And that little body is out there, and Nancy, we`re going to continue that search. We could have jeopardized...

GRACE: Tim, where are you starting your search?

MILLER: Well, I`m actually getting into town on the 4th and...

GRACE: Where? Where?

MILLER: Well, in Orlando. But I`m spending time with John Allen (ph). With all of the calls that came in with positive sightings of a white car with a black bra on it, we`re going to go ahead and prioritize these sightings. And of course, we`re going to continue doing the three areas that we was really focused in, where the cell tower activity was. And this search is going to go on until we find Caylee.

GRACE: And back out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter and now joining in the search for Caylee. We`ve now got up to three people stating that they observed mom Casey Anthony in this area, one of them -- well, actually, two of them, with a shovel and a bag. The driver and his passenger observed that. Is that where the searches will start?

PADILLA: The situation is such that I do not presume to in any way question what Tim is saying as far as where he is going to lead the search, and the search parties, too. He`s the one who`s going to decide...

GRACE: I take it that`s a yes?

PADILLA: Whatever Tim says, that`s what we`re going to do. I`m not going to get in his way, believe me. He`s the leader.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: My daughter from day one has gotten -- you know, she has been a victim just as much as Caylee has.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony, high-spirited party girl living the "Sex and the City" lifestyle with more than one man on the hook at one time, is now one of the loneliest women in central Florida. Accused of murdering her daughter, Caylee, to free herself of maternal encumbrances, she now finds herself not only childless but friendless. She can see out through a glass wall, but then everybody else can see in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No one has privacy in jail.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Today, the state drops a charge against mom Casey Anthony, the charge of child neglect. We learn how Casey Anthony is spending her time behind bars as the search gears up outside prison walls for her little girl.

To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientist from John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He is a consultant on the Anthony defense team. Now that you are part of the team, do you plan to travel and look at the evidence, Koby (ph)? I mean, no move has been -- move has been made yet for them to look at the evidence.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, certainly I -- I`m guessing that I will have the opportunity to do that. But let me say this. The answer depends on defense strategy. They may decide to test certain things, they may decide to challenge the state`s evidence, on the other hand. So we have to see.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Investigators today in Arkansas are looking for a motive in the brutal beating of a popular TV anchorwoman there. KATV`s Anne Pressly is in critical but stable condition after being beaten and stabbed at her home in Little Rock.

The police are trying to figure out if she was the random victim of a home invasion or targeted because of her job.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were at dinner last night, and she was so happy. It`s just a great time in her life, with this movie she`s doing. The morning show now that she loves doing that and she`s so happy, and dinner last night was wonderful, and to think that she went home and this happened, it`s just tragic.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The 26-year-old was found by her mother, unresponsive and bleeding from severe wounds.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Little Rock police spokesperson, Sergeant Cassandra Davis, says Pressly`s mother called her around 4:30 for her morning wakeup call and couldn`t reach her, so she came over and found her lying in bed, bleeding.

Investigators say it doesn`t look like anyone forced their way inside Pressly`s home. Although they are purse is missing, they aren`t sure if this a random burglary or if the person targeted Pressly.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: In the wee morning hours, this beautiful young anchor there in Little Rock, Arkansas apparently bludgeoned and stabbed in her own bed.

Tonight, she is clinging to life, as the investigation is in high gear.

Joining me right now, a reporter from -- KARN News Radio and former co-worker and friend of Anne Pressly, Dana Bradley is with us.

Welcome, Miss Bradley. What happened?

DANA BRADLEY, KARN NEWSRADIO, FORMER CO-WORKER OF ANNE PRESSLY: Well, Nancy, it all started off with the early morning routine. Ann`s mother routinely calls to wake her up in the morning and makes sure she gets up and get ready to report to work.

And her calls went unanswered Monday morning. And about 4:30 she got worried so went over to Anne`s house and entered the house and she noticed that -- she saw her daughter laying in bed, bleeding from severe wounds, unresponsive.

She called the 9-1-1. Police arrived to the scene and initial investigation stated that Anne was stabbed and suffering from severe blunt force trauma. Now after the investigation continued, they did notice no stabbing was involved. There was no knife or any -- sharp object used. It was just blunt force trauma and -- to her upper body and her head.

Anne is now in stable but critical condition. She is doing a lot better. And initial investigation states that Little Rock police found that there was no forced entry into the home. Her purse was missing, so they think that robbery could be the motive, but. I mean, everything is all under investigation right now and they`re just trying to put the pieces together.

GRACE: Do we know, Dana Bradley, what type of lock she had on her door? The fact that there was no forced entry, you know -- immediately visible doesn`t necessarily mean there was no forced entry.

BRADLEY: Well, that`s correct. I have not found out what type of lock she had on the door. That question actually was not asked by the Little Rock Police Department. But they did notice that she has two Cocker Spaniel dogs. And her dogs were out.

They usually stay in the house at night, but for some reason her neighbors returned the dogs and her dogs were not in the house, so -- and you know all of that is still under investigation and the Little Rock Police Department has not confirmed as far as what type of lock she had or how or when the dogs were released.

GRACE: But they say no forced entry.

BRADLEY: No. At first sight right now, they don`t see any forced entry into her home.

GRACE: What is her condition tonight?

BRADLEY: She is still -- she is upgrade from last night, she`s critical but is stable. She is improving.

GRACE: What were her injuries? What are they?

BRADLEY: Well, just blunt force trauma to the head and the upper body. And they don`t know -- there was an object used. Little Rock Police say there was an object used, they don`t know what the object is, they have not recovered the object yet, and this is the last time I spoke with Little Rock Police, this is what they were telling me.

So we don`t know. I mean we don`t know what the object was. And some of her injuries, she had to undergo surgery and brain surgery and a lot of different things like that. And you know, you just hear these initial reports, you talk to her family and her friends and you just hear -- you know hear about her condition, but everybody is just keeping her in their prayers and praying that she recovers wholeheartedly.

GRACE: Out to Gerard Matthews, the associate editor with the "Arkansas Times."

Welcome, Gerard. Gerard, what can you tell us about the neighborhood?

GERARD MATTHEWS, ASSOCIATE EDITOR, ARKANSAS TIMES, COVERING STORY: The neighborhood -- she lived in a neighborhood, it`s called the Heights in Little Rock. It`s very near the Little Rock Country Club, it`s a very nice neighborhood. There`s lots of nice houses. You know people walking their dogs up and down the street, you know, at all hours of the day.

You know, you asked about, you know, the no forced entry. I mean it`s possible -- although I would think it unlikely -- that she just didn`t lock her door.

GRACE: Would that -- is that true to form? Would she normally not lock her door?

MATTHEWS: Well, no, I`m not saying that she wouldn`t. I`m just saying it`s a really nice neighborhood, a lot of people here, just very trusting and open. And, you know, I mean, when you get an initial report that, you know, a young woman was -- her house was broken into and there was no forced entry, I mean, it just sort of raises questions.

Of course, that`s speculation but.

GRACE: Yes, no forced entry. That could mean anything. That could mean somebody got in through a window that wasn`t locked.

MATTHEWS: Right.

GRACE: And closed the window back.

MATTHEWS: Right.

GRACE: What was the weather the evening of the break in?

MATTHEWS: It was great weather. I mean I think it was a -- you know, very tempered outside, if I remember correctly.

GRACE: So there`d be no indication if a window had been entered.

Out to Mike Brooks, formerly fed with the FBI, what do you think?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, Nancy, you know, it doesn`t sound to me like a random act of violence. This sounds maybe -- possibly, again, this is all speculation, because we don`t know -- she may have known someone who came to the house and let them in.

And I find it interesting about -- the point about the dogs, the dogs were let out. Otherwise they would have been in the home at, you know, that early in the morning. You know, so there`s a lot of things you can look at, Nancy.

They say it`s a robbery right now, but we really don`t know the motive. If it was a robbery, I think there would probably be more missing than just the purse.

So are we looking at a possible stalking case, someone who had known her or someone who had wanted to know her, was it love-obsessed, some who she had rejected, an ex boyfriend? These are all things that law enforcement are looking at.

And also, were there any anonymous letters that ever came to KATV, or any anonymous letters that ever came to her house from strangers? You know, I -- back when I was in D.C., I actually arrested a stalker who was stalking a reporter at a local news station who is now a reporter for CNN, and this person kept showing up at the station, would stand outside with signs that said "marry me so-and-so," and then finally they showed up at her house and that`s when we went ahead and took some action.

And that`s when they wanted -- the station wanted us to take some action.

GRACE: To Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist -- we are taking your calls live, everybody -- we are talking about a gorgeous, young morning show TV anchor -- there she is -- Anne Pressly in Little Rock, Arkansas. Her mom wakes her up every morning to go to work, really early, around 4:30, a.m., couldn`t get her on the phone, went over and found her daughter bludgeoned nearly to death.

No forced entry obvious. Only her purse missing. The home apparently not ransacked, the TV, the computer, everything intact. Only thing missing was her purse.

Out to Dr. Patricia Saunders, the first thing that strikes me is the mode of the attack. When you have multiple hits, such as multiple stab wounds that shows a certain rage that screams to me, not random.

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, I couldn`t agree with you more, Nancy. There is too much passion in this for it to be a random home invasion and robbery.

Somebody had to repeatedly hit her and hit her hard enough to make her insensate. Either the person knew her, the person was on drugs or high, or it was a stalker turned to homicide because he couldn`t be with her.

GRACE: The weather that night, the low 50s and very calm, that means that if a window had been left raised and left open for any period of time, there would not have been any indication of that. We don`t know exactly how the intruder got in, but we do know that all was taken was a purse.

Back to Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, if this were the work of a stalker, you know, very often stalkers start off by loving you. They want to marry you. They want to romance you. Then when you don`t respond or you respond negatively, all that love turns into rage.

SAUNDERS: That`s right, Nancy. Those kind of stalkers usually have a delusional system. These are people who may well be psychotic. And they`re unpredictable, and the rage can turn into homicide in far too many cases.

The non-psychotic stalker is more someone who that the victim knows, a spurned boyfriend, an ex, and there is nothing that we know about in this lady`s history.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Dana in Washington. Hi, Dana.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I am a victim of an attack years ago, and it was due to an ex-boyfriend.

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I`m just kind of wondering, have they checked with her ex-boyfriends, her past, someone that, obviously, she (INAUDIBLE)?

GRACE: Excellent question. What about it, Gerard Matthews?

MATTHEWS: Well, you know, from what I know, she actually, you know -- is attractive, beautiful and talented. She was -- didn`t really date much. Dana might be able to speak to that more than I could. But, you know, she -- you know, from all accounts was just, you know, very reserved and very sweet girl. And I don`t know of any boyfriend. But.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Arkansas anchorwoman Anne Pressly as a kind person, kind to everyone. But did she have an enemy who would leave her for dead in her own bed?

Police want to know whether she was randomly attacked or targeted because of her celebrity status. She also had a small part in a new Oliver Stone movie, it`s entitled "W."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

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(NEWSBREAK)

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UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Pressly`s mother called her around 4:30 for her morning wakeup call and couldn`t reach her, so she came over and found her lying in bed bleeding.

Investigators say it doesn`t look like anyone forced their way inside Pressly`s home. Although her purse is missing they aren`t sure if this is a random robbery, or if the person targeted Pressly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) so real. It`s hard to understand, because she is such a wonderful person that something like this could happen to somebody so great.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are talking with neighbors, friends and co- workers to see if there was a person who had an unusual interest in Miss Pressly, whether good or bad.

We do not have any suspects at this time. In talking with the neighbors, no one has been able to provide us information as to seeing or heard anything overnight.

Heard from the mother. Apparently there is a routine for the mother to notify Miss Pressly in the morning, routine wake-up call. When the mother was not able to reach Miss Pressly, she did drive to the residence. She went into the residence -- the rear of the residence, and then she did find her daughter inside.

Miss Pressly was beaten severely. She also does have some stab wounds and these injuries are life-threatening.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: A beautiful young TV morning news anchor has been brutally beaten in her own bed, lying there in her own home, discovered by her mother.

We are taking your calls live. Joining me right now, a special guest, Officer Michelle Hill. Michelle is the PIO, the public information officer, at the Little Rock Police Department.

Officer, thank you for being with us.

OFFICER MICHELLE HILL, PIO, LITTLE ROCK POLICE DEPT., ON THE CASE: Thanks, Nancy. You get me choked up when you air those little clips from our friends. First, I want to start off my thoughts and prayers go out to Anne and her family and the KATV family. This has really rocked our community here. She is a dear friend of ours.

GRACE: You know she`s apparently just as beautiful on the inside as she is on the outside. A lovely young lady.

Could you tell me if there are any suspects or motives at this time?

HILL: You know, at this time, the detectives have worked around the clock, you know, and they`re the best in the world in our eyes. And most of the information that they have, crime scene has gathered information, detectives are still interviewing people, and will continue to. We don`t have a whole lot to go on right now.

And that`s why we need your help.

GRACE: Very quickly, Officer, what do we know about the time line? I know she had dinner with a friend that evening?

HILL: All that still is -- it`s in the investigation case, I can`t really release any of that.

GRACE: OK. Let me then go quickly back to Dana Bradley with KARN.

HILL: Sure.

GRACE: I understand she had dinner with a friend and co-worker around 9:30 to 10:30. That was the last known contact with Pressly.

BRADLEY: Yes, Nancy. Sunday evening they had a surprise birthday party for a fellow co-worker at KATV, and a lot of people were at this party, the KATV president, general manager, Dale Nicholson was there, the reporters were there, reporter and friend of Anne, Mallory Harting, which is one of the young ladies you all spoke with, she was also there.

So they all saw her Sunday night there at that party.

GRACE: To Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientists, what tests need to be done inside the home, in crime scene?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, the first thing, Nancy, is that the crime scene unit needs to find point of entry and point of egress. They have to go in and look for trace evidence, they`ll dust for fingerprints, they`ll take an alternate light source, and run it around the room and see if there is any kind of evidence that could help with the case.

They`ll have to go through her computer records, her cell phone records, her mail. They will have to trace her steps for the last few days, find out who she spoke to, find out friends, people that know something about her. All of that is going to help the detectives solve the case.

GRACE: Kobe, you`re absolutely correct. We just showed you a list of items seized from the homes, including bloody sheets, cushions, bedding, also her computer for them to search her recent e-mails.

This is not the first time an anchor has been attacked. Of course, we all know about the 1995 attack on Jodi Huisentruit, Kathryn Dettman, Jennifer Servo, and here are the similarities. A morning anchorwoman abducted at her own home. Contents of the purse found near her car, here the purse is missing.

With Kathryn Dettman, also a reporter, that was in Waco, Texas, she had been stalked by a neighbor, and in that case, again, no sign of breaking and entering. She had actually left her door cracked for cats.

And, of course, Jennifer Servo, that was in Abilene Texas. She was bludgeoned in her own apartment, as well, no forced entry, no murder weapon ever found. So they`re extremely similar.

Let`s go out to the lawyers, to Susan Moss, Ray Giudice, Pam Hayes. First let`s take calls, to Barbie in Florida. Hi, Barbie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was there any signs of sexual assault for, like, DNA evidence or anything?

GRACE: I do not believe there was an assault, a sexual assault, Gerard?

MATTHEWS: There were no signs that we know of right off the -- just - - as the investigation stands that there was any.

GRACE: OK.

MATTHEWS: . sign of rape or anything like that.

GRACE: Which suggests even more a targeted attack. If there`s no robbery, there is no rape, other than the -- pocket book, of course.

To Sonia in Florida, hi, Sonia.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good. My question is, is it possible that they took her purse and make it look like a robbery and maybe it was someone that she knew.

GRACE: Let`s go out to the lawyers. Susan Moss, Ray Giudice, Pam Hayes -- Ray, we have seen this scenario on many occasions. What`s your take?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I do agree with Mike. I don`t think this is random. That violence, and Dr. Saunders talked about it, it`s so -- a thief would just take the purse, take the TV, flee, take her car or maybe take her with it.

But the violence in the home bespeaks of something more angry.

GRACE: Pam?

PAM HAYES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I tend to agree. It`s just seemingly, you know, unmitigated violence just for a purse. There could have been a number of other things.

GRACE: I agree. Ridiculous.

HAYES: . that should have been missing if it was really a home invasion or, you know, just a robbery. And I just would be curious to match up that case in Texas to the Arkansas case to see what the real similarities are like, because it could be.

GRACE: Right.

HAYES: . some person who is doing it so you need to look at that ties.

GRACE: Excellent thought. To Susan Moss -- Susan, also she was still in bed, obviously, still asleep. They didn`t have to fight her to get her pocket book.

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: There is a lot to be said that she was found in that bed. And what the evidence shows is that bloodied pillows, bloodied sheets, bloody bed. So she was not out, she was not standing up, she was not fighting.

This was targeted.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We love her. He just -- she`s just been raised right and trained right and just got good manners. Never saw her with a bad crowd. First-class girl.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s strong and she`ll be OK. And there`s so many people praying and that`s what the family is just asking for prayers right now. They need so much prayer.

And we believe she`ll pull through because she`s strong and she`s wonderful and she`s helped so many people and touched so many lives. She`ll continue to after she`s better.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A beautiful young anchorwoman out of Arkansas found bludgeoned in her own home. So brutally attacked police initially thought she was stabbed.

Out to the lines, to Britney, hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was just curious if they checked in with any of her co-workers. Was she fighting with them? Were they angry with her for maybe a certain story that she did that they want?

GRACE: Excellent question.

Dana Bradley with KARN, what do you think?

BRADLEY: Well, Nancy, they did interview her friends and her co- workers and her family members as well. As far as right now, nobody says that they had any problem, that she had any problems with anybody.

GRACE: Right.

BRADLEY: Any ongoing problem.

GRACE: So they`ve all been cooperative.

Back to Mike Brooks, what scenarios or motives are investigators looking at right now?

BROOKS: Well, Nancy, we know there`s -- we know that robbery`s the motive. And the other one that I`m thinking of, as I said earlier, is the stalking motive. I mean everything kind of leads to that right now.

But again, you start at the -- you start at the inner circle with her friends, family, relatives, work their way out.

GRACE: Robbery.

BROOKS: . cell phones.

GRACE: Robbery. You know.

BROOKS: Robbery.

GRACE: No, think about it. If this were a stalker he would take her pocketbook just to get stuff out of it, just to have her driver`s license or her lipstick.

BROOKS: Absolutely.

GRACE: Why didn`t he take her television, her VCR, her DVD player, her computer?

BROOKS: Or her jewelry, absolutely, her iPod, everything else. I totally agree with you, Nancy, and that`s why, you know, you start with the inner circle, as I said, work your way out. Telephones, cell phones, computers, all these kind of things can lead to a lot of evidence and hopefully find out who did this.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Private First Class John Bishop, 22, Gaylord, Michigan, killed Iraq. Awarded the Expert Infantry Badge and Army Good Conduct medal. Loved adventure, snowmobiling, skydiving, fishing.

Remembered as the glue that held everyone together. Leaves behind parents John and Gay, two brothers also serving in the military, two sisters, and new bride Diane.

John Bishop, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END



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