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« Reply #40 on: November 19, 2008, 08:14:44 AM »

NANCY GRACE

Text Messages Show Casey Anthony Frustrated With Mother`s Duties

Aired November 17, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 22 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Police suspicions confirmed. Tonight, the timeline is finally nailed down and it reveals that in the days and weeks leading up to Caylee`s disappearance, tot mom repeatedly complains to friends Caylee`s cramping her style, her social life. And it all comes straight from the horse`s mouth. Her own text messages do her in.

And tonight, the search continues in a local park, including in the murky, alligator-infested waters of the Econ River, all in the search for Caylee. And although the tot mom`s not cooperating with police in the search for Caylee, a Florida trial lawyer is now set to depose her under oath in hours. Will the tot mom finally be forced to speak? Bounty hunter, leading the search for Caylee, Leonard Padilla, agrees to a polygraph. But will grandparents George and Cindy Anthony and brother, Lee, break down and do the same? Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More developments in the case of missing 3-year- old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. According to text messages from tot mom Casey Anthony`s cell phone, her nighttime activities were being heavily restricted by her daughter, Caylee. Multiple text messages from the tot mom in May show that Anthony was desperate to go out with friends and hit the party scene, but could not because it would mean leaving her then 2- year-old daughter Caylee home alone. Anthony`s mommy duties were not allowing her to have fun with friends and caused the tot mom to constantly wait for her mother, Cindy Anthony, to come home to take care of the parenting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere, and you`re worried that if we find that out that people are going to look at you the wrong way?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So she`s either in a dumpster right now, she`s buried somewhere, she`s -- she`s out there somewhere and her rotting body is starting to decompose. No more lies. No more bull coming out of your mouth. We`ve been very respectful. We`re taking our time talking to you. But we`re tired to the lies. No more lies. What happened to Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It would have been great to get Casey, Lee, Cindy and George would have taken a lie-detector test.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Despite swirling anger and personal attacks among the players in the Casey Anthony case, volunteer searchers continue to search for Caylee, hoping to bring her home and bring peace to a community desperate for answers.

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: Kidfinders -- it`s -- (INAUDIBLE) people are on our side. We believe our granddaughter`s alive and still out there, and we`re going to bring her home. You know, this other stuff that`s going on is just a distraction.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, the mystery surrounding 23-year-old mom Stacy Peterson, vanishing upscale Chicago suburbs, husband/cop Drew Peterson the suspect in his fourth wife`s disappearance. The suspicious bathtub drowning of wife number three officially ruled homicide. He`s still insisting wife number four left her own children for another man, claiming she remains in hiding.

Peterson now plans to file for divorce. It`s all caught on audiotape. At stake, all the marital assets, including the family home. The prime suspect in his fourth wife`s disappearance, Peterson must now prove in court that she left him. But how?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DREW PETERSON, SUSPECT IN WIFE`S DISAPPEARANCE: I really believe she took off with somebody. Why am I going out searching for someone I don`t believe is there? You know, it`s a waste of my time. It`s, like, crazy.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Former Bolingbrook, Illinois, police officer Drew Peterson, a suspect in his four wife, Stacy`s, disappearance, is said to be seeking a divorce from the missing mom of two.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DEREK ARMSTRONG, AUTHOR, "DREW PETERSON EXPOSED": You`re seeing him about a divorce?

PETERSON: I`m just getting information right now. I`m exploring options.

ARMSTRONG: On what basis? You`ve said she`s a runaway, that she`s alive.

PETERSON: A desertion. She deserted me. I`ve always said that I`m mad about that. But I`m looking into this for the kids. This neighborhood is not healthy for my kids because of Sharon Bychowski.

ARMSTRONG: Do you think the story of this divorce might encourage Stacy to contact you?

PETERSON: I have nothing more to say.

ARMSTRONG: Well, what about the rumors that the state`s attorney is getting ready to indict for homicide on one of your wives?

PETERSON: I told you, nothing to say.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Man, he`s been blabbing for months. Now he clams up? Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. The desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will Casey Anthony actually be forced to give details of what happened to Caylee from behind bars? Zenaida Gonzalez`s attorney, John Morgan, hopes that`s the case. He says he plans to depose Casey from jail, thanks to Anthony`s countersuit against Zenaida Gonzalez. In that suit, Anthony claims she was truthful to investigators. Now Morgan telling local reporters the countersuit forces Anthony to either give a deposition or drop her lawsuit. Morgan hopes to depose Anthony within the next two weeks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I got off of work, left Universal, driving back to pick up Caylee, like a normal day. And I show up to the apartment, knock on the door, nobody answers. So I called Zenaida`s cell phone and it`s out of service.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: My daughter was on the edge. You know that (INAUDIBLE) all these contradictions.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We even pulled surveillance video from the apartment complex. And they have to keep this by law for several days, OK? And we`re not seeing you over there. We`re not seeing you at all that day. Do you think that we`re stupid and we`re not going to...

CASEY ANTHONY: I know you`re not stupid.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... do all this stuff?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: My daughter (INAUDIBLE) the car (INAUDIBLE)

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All this while reports indicate divers plan to return to Blanchard Park to continue the search for Caylee in the Little Econ River, while Leonard Padilla confirms he`s waiting for the FBI to administer a polygraph.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A lot happening in the search for Caylee. With us tonight, the renowned scientist Dr. Henry Lee. As you know, Dr. Lee has been called in on the Anthony case, and he has examined the automobile belonging to the tot mom that still reeks of human decomposition now 22 weeks after Caylee goes missing. We`ll go straight to Dr. Lee.

But first to Natisha Lance, our producer. Her own text messages are doing her in. What do they confirm? I understand our suspicions are now confirmed, as to a possible motive, Natisha?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, the text messages confirm, Nancy, that, apparently, Casey`s mommy duties were getting in the way of her being able to go out. There were several text messages she had with friends between May and June, where in which time she had to cancel certain plans with them because she said, quote, her "mommy duties" got in the way. Now, one of these times was with Amy Huizenga on May 3. Another time was in mid-May, and another time, as well, was at the end of May. And then after that, she ends up going to that no clothes party, which we`ve all seen the pictures from with her in that American flag. And then at the end of June...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Wait! The no clothes party? Did you say no clothes, C-L-O-T-H-E-S, no clothing party?

LANCE: Yes. It was...

GRACE: No, I didn`t know about that. What`s that?

LANCE: It was actually the anything but clothes party. And in the text messages, she says that, You will see the American flag in all of its glory.

GRACE: OK. Before we go to Dr. Henry Lee, very quickly to Dr. Janet Taylor, psychiatrist. Dr. Taylor, at her point in life with a child, a 2- year-old child, what is she doing at a party that the cops bust up at 1:15 AM?

DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Hey, she`s an unmarried mother who`s still young, and she made an unfortunate decision when she had her child, and that`s to understand...

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait!

TAYLOR: ... the complete responsibilities...

GRACE: When I was her age, I was not at a party that was broken up by cops. I was in law school, working two jobs. Help me out here, Doctor.

TAYLOR: Well, she chose to be a mom, and with being a mother comes the responsibilities of denying what you want to do and taking care of your child. Clearly, that was a conflict for her. Her mother seemingly bailed her out numerous times. But as she said, the mommy duties became too overwhelming. She just wasn`t ready to be a mother.

GRACE: I just don`t see what you said, Doctor -- Dr. Janet Lee (SIC) -- denying what you want to do. I would think that what you would want to do is be with your child.

TAYLOR: Well, I mean, the reality is, mothers feel a lot of pull. It`s a lot of responsibility. Sometimes you have support, sometimes you don`t. But most of us have to make the sacrifices with coming with the decision that we have made to have our children, to raise our children, and to delay our gratification until later.

GRACE: With me, before I lose him, I want to go to Dr. Henry Lee, who is taking time out of his travel schedule to join us tonight. You know Dr. Henry Lee originally probably from the Orenthal James Simpson double murder trial, forensic scientist. He has examined Casey Anthony`s car. He is a consultant on the Anthony defense team. Dr. Lee?

DR. HENRY LEE, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO ANTHONY DEFENSE: Yes. How are you, Nancy?

GRACE: Friend.

LEE: I haven`t talked to you for a while.

GRACE: I know. I`ve been missing you, Dr. Lee. It`s nice to hear your voice. So did the car still stink to high heaven when you examined it?

LEE: Yes, when I examine the car, it still have the odor.

GRACE: Now, Dr. Lee, your testimony has been extremely impressive in the past. No one will ever forget the various demonstrations that you have done in high-profile court cases. When you say it smelled, is it true the car smells of decomposition?

LEE: The smell -- actually, it`s a rotten smell. It`s caused by any type of decomposition. The definition of decomposition, anything. It can be any food material. Can be human body. Can be any type of thing, decomposition. So the terms decomposed, human body odor, I don`t think any scientist can qualify to say -- just smell the odor, say that`s a human body.

GRACE: Well, Dr. Henry Lee -- everyone, with us, he is on the Anthony defense team -- I know that you have the highest regard for the Oak Ridge Laboratories in Tennessee. I trained there myself for a period of time. According to them, and their -- their specialty unit, the "body farm," there was evidence of human decomposition. Would that be consistent with the smell that you smelled, Dr. Henry Lee?

LEE: Here, that`s -- you know, I`m a scientist. I only can address some scientific issue. I cannot speculate. Decomposition, because the trunk -- don`t forget, I looked at not only the car. Also looked at the liner, the carpet. Also looked at the content of the material. And I don`t know anybody informed me or not -- there are a lot of garbage was collected. A lot of material was collected from the trunk.

GRACE: Like what?

LEE: Like what? Like food, like meat, like pizza box, like cheese, like ham, box (ph) of soda, and all different material in there. So basically, a lot of maggots and a lot of insects, all kind of material mixed together. So I cannot really elaborate too much on what I found because this is an active case. I cannot really reach a conclusion at this moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The trunk of Casey Anthony`s car is a trove of information which could be critical to the first degree murder case against her, since her daughter, Caylee`s, body has not been found. The FBI says it also found unusually high levels of chloroform, a potentially deadly substance, in the vapors coming from the carpet in Casey`s trunk, more than you would expect from normal human decomposition.

GEORGE ANTHONY: You guys don`t know! The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s (SIC) car is not my granddaughter!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Joining us right now, renowned scientist, Dr. Henry Lee. Shortly, we will be joined by another famed forensic scientist, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky. Dr. Lee joining us as he heads to the Philippines to accept a peace award medal. Again, thank you for being with us. Dr. Henry Lee, what part of the car did you examine?

LEE: OK. Nancy, I look at the whole car. Then I examine the liner, the carpet, the content of the car. I also want to take this opportunity to thank the Orange sheriff department, the crime scene investigator and detective. They`re true professionals. So the whole examination took a whole day and very professional manner. We did find some additional evidence, which was collected and handed to the sheriff`s department.

GRACE: Dr. Lee, do you plan on looking at any other evidence in the case, such as the hair samples?

LEE: Not right now. My initial agreement was just to examine the car, to look at the car. So I don`t know any other evidence. And of course, a lot depends on the schedule and -- to look at the hair or not. And I`m sure if it`s important -- Larry -- Dr. Kobilinsky is another excellent forensic scientist. I`m sure he can look at the hair, too.

GRACE: Dr. Henry Lee, you stated that there was a lot of garbage in the car. Did I understand you correctly to say meat and cheese were in the car?

LEE: Box of -- you know, those (INAUDIBLE) frozen foods. So have some food residue there. But we did find a lot of maggots, insect activity and fungus growing. But you know, it`s a lot of (INAUDIBLE) information have to digest before we reach any conclusion.

GRACE: And Dr. Lee, you said frozen food? Such as what?

LEE: Frozen food boxes. You know, those packages.

GRACE: Frozen food boxes. Was there food inside of it?

LEE: Well, because right now, I can`t really say too much about what we looked at, what we found, OK?

GRACE: And Dr. Lee, I understand that. You are a paid consultant on the Anthony defense team. And very quickly, Dr. Henry Lee, I asked you about the body farm, which is a special unit there at Oak Ridge Laboratories in Tennessee.

LEE: Yes. That`s not really -- the body farm, just people give that name. The correct term is Tennessee Anthropological Testing Facility.

GRACE: It certainly is. And I understand that you have the utmost respect for them.

LEE: Yes. Dr. Bass (ph) is a good friend of mine and -- but I doubt any forensic anthropologist can just smell the odor and reach a conclusion.

GRACE: No, it`s my understanding they took an air sample, and then with a gas spectrometer, then analyzed it and found human decomposition in it.

LEE: Right. Well (INAUDIBLE) it`s identified as organic molecules.

GRACE: Right.

LEE: It`s not going to identify human or nonhuman. Any decomposed molecules this (ph) consist of certain amount of components only shows some of those organic material present. That`s -- I think -- you know, somebody looked at this and reach a conclusion that`s human decomposition. That`s little bit too far.

GRACE: Joining us...

LEE: But right this moment, of course, we have to digest, to review the report and to found out what exactly it means.

GRACE: With us tonight exclusively, Dr. Henry Lee. He is a forensic consultant to the Anthony defense team.

Very quickly, I want to go out to Kathi Belich, with WFTV. On Friday, it was reported that Leonard Padilla was kicked out of the Jay Blanchard Park. There he was with volunteer divers, searching the bottom of the Econ River. That`s not true at all. He was not kicked out. There were simply other functions at the park, and he didn`t search over the weekend. He is resuming the search this week, is that correct, Kathi Belich?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: That`s right. The divers plan to be back later this week. I`m not sure if he is coming back with them. I did talk with him, actually, about a half hour ago, and he couldn`t tell me when he might take this lie-detector test, either. He has agreed to take a lie-detector test. He doesn`t know why they`ve asked him to take a test, but he says he`s agreed to it and he`ll either come back to Orlando to take that test, if he has to, or an FBI agent in the Sacramento area will do that.

But yes, he was not -- he was told not to come back for the weekend because there were a lot of activities at the park, it`s very crowded, and they really didn`t want us and everybody else there, as well. So he is welcome to come back this week, as far as I understand.

GRACE: Well, Kathi, let`s get it straight from the horse`s mouth. With me right now, bounty hunter Leonard Padilla. Why are you being asked to take a polygraph test? And to your credit, you`ve said, Sure, strap me up!

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: To be honest with you, I think sometimes, you know, the tactics of putting an individual like me in a car when you could just as easily stand there in front of 100 people and ask them questions is meant to either annoy or upset you, which it doesn`t. I`ve sat in many cop cars. I think that the situation about a lie detector-test being asked in front of people is supposed to make you uncomfortable or disconcerting and I got...

GRACE: Well, you don`t look uncomfortable to me.

PADILLA: No, no.

(CROSSTALK)

PADILLA: I`ve taken lie-detector tests going back to when I was...

GRACE: I hope you passed them.

PADILLA: I think I did, in the military, many, many times. So something like this is probably...

GRACE: What are they -- are people alleging that you planted what was found in the Econ River?

PADILLA: I was asked that by reporters, not by law enforcement. But I think the main thing is the cross that was on the tree...

GRACE: Right.

PADILLA: ... that two young ladies took pictures of back in August. And on the Sunday and Monday that we were there, one of our team members found two little... GRACE: Beads.

PADILLA: ... beads that matched the beads in Casey`s house identically. And I think law enforcement was a little, Oh, my God, how did we miss those? Well, my guys are taught to dig, dig and dig more.

GRACE: Well, with us, taking your calls live tonight, Leonard Padilla. More on the search and the text messages that confirmed what we already suspected about possible motive for Caylee`s disappearance.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Favorite places to go. I guess Universal`s one of them.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, as a theatrical thing, of course. But she liked Jay Blanchard Park, going to Lake Underhill and walking around the lake.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whereabouts in the park did she like the best?

CASEY ANTHONY: The playground. She liked to just attempt to run around Lake Underhill.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: My husband is a deputy sheriff. Years ago, he was a homicide investigator, as well. And the first thing he thought was human decomposition. I`m a nurse. I thought human decomposition.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lee Anthony says Casey claimed she first noticed the smell on June 5.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: She said it started around that time, when two dead squirrels crawled up under the hood of the car, you know, and they died in there.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. A lot happening in the search for little Caylee. First of all, out to the lines. Raye in Florida. Hi, Raye.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.

GRACE: Thank you, very much. What is your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`d like to know why George, Cindy and Lee aren`t taking a polygraph just to clear themselves.

GRACE: Excellent question. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, child advocate Susan Moss, defense attorney Jason Oshins, defense attorney and author of "Prosecutorial Misconduct" Joe Lawless. What about it Jason Oshins?

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Listen, it`s not to their advantage.

GRACE: Why? They`re not charged with anything.

OSHINS: It`s not admissible. It`s only going to hurt them and...

GRACE: We know it`s not admissible. That`s not what Raye in Florida asked you.

OSHINS: Yes, but it`s not going to help. There`s nothing good that`s going to come of it no matter how it`s administered or how it`s tailored (ph).

GRACE: Susan, agree?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: If they have nothing to hide, they should come forward and help find the remains of this little precious girl.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I know she`s alive and I know she`s out there. She is coming home.

She is leading you to a place, but she is not telling you the exact right location to which apartment it is, because she is afraid if someone walks in that something may happen to Caylee.

My daughter may have some mistruths out there, or half truths, but she is not a murderer.

There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots it stunk so bad.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Cindy, but these dogs are trained to find dead bodies, Cindy.

ANTHONY: The same dog that cleared our house, cleared them. There is no evidence that Casey has ever done anything to harm her child. She lived with me for three years. I`ve never seen anything.

She is not dead. We still believe firmly that Caylee is alive. We have a tip now Coral Spring, Florida that Caylee is alive. Until I hear it from the authorities, it`s just -- it is what it is. It`s a bag of whatever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Yes, obviously, Cindy Anthony is ignoring the obvious. She`s in denial. Clearly, she`s defending her daughter. But can you imagine being hounded by the media every day, every night, like a pack of hyenas, chasing you up the sidewalk?

Out to the lines, Suzie in New Mexico. Hi, Suzie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call.

GRACE: No, thank you for calling in. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, if this car smelled so horribly bad like, by all accounts it did, wouldn`t it have been noticeable to her boyfriend and other people, and how could she stand driving around in it?

GRACE: Well, you know, she abandoned the car.

Out to Nikki Pierce. I don`t know that the boyfriend ever smelled the car. Wasn`t she waiting outside the car with groceries in her hands when he showed up?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes, when he showed up to rescue her from the supposedly -- that she ran out of gas when she abandoned the car at the Amscot parking lot. She was standing outside with groceries in her car so he never got near it.

And when she was returning the gas cans and so on to her father that she supposedly stole, she wouldn`t let him near the trunk, either. So by all accounts, she tried to keep everyone away from it.

GRACE: To Crystal in Delaware, hi, Crystal.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I absolutely love your show. I watch it every night.

GRACE: Thank you, dear. And thank you for calling in. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, with all of the sightings they had of Caylee in the United States, has anyone gone down to Puerto Rico and checked the sightings out down there?

GRACE: Excellent question.

Out to you, Natisha Lance, our reporter on the case from the very beginning. What about in Puerto Rico?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, in Puerto Rico, Cindy did do an interview on Univision Television to get the word out out there in Puerto Rico, but also the private investigator who has been working with them has been following up on all tips, all leads that are coming from all over the country, as well as Puerto Rico.

GRACE: So back to you, Leonard Padilla, when are you set for your polygraph everybody is talking about?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, SEARCHING FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, Friday, I spoke to the agent there, Nick Savage, and he said that his polygrapher was on vacation or something this week.

GRACE: Well, there`s more than one, FYI.

PADILLA: Well, no -- I don`t know. I mean he told me that the guy that does the -- the polygraph test there was gone and would be back either Tuesday or Wednesday. And I hinted that maybe he wants to cover my expenses while I stayed past the weekend. And then he said no, well, we can go out to California, and do them out there.

And the thought came to my mind that I`d call Don King and maybe have the polygraph test done on pay-per-view and make some money to go back and resume the hunt.

GRACE: Boy, you really are something. OK. I will just leave it at that, Padilla, because at least -- no matter what anybody says about you, at least, whatever the motivation is, you`re out there hunting. You`re doing something. Everybody else is sitting on their duff, all right? So you`ve got that going to you.

To Mark Smith, polygrapher -- polygraph expert with New Jersey Polygraphist -- Mark Smith, how reliable do you believe polygraphs are?

MARK SMITH, POLYGRAPH EXPERT, V.P. NJ POLYGRAPHISTS: It doesn`t matter what I believe, Nancy.

GRACE: Yes, well, that`s what I asked you.

SMITH: The Department of Defense has done testing over 20 years, and they`ve shown that for specific-issue polygraph tests, it`s well over 90 percent. That`s the good news. The other good news, it`s the only method of lie detection that there is today.

GRACE: You know what? That was an excellent answer. You know, you beat me at my own game. Why should somebody take a polygraph, such as the Anthony family?

SMITH: Nancy, look at the -- what would the average person do? If somebody`s child disappeared or the wife disappeared, they don`t want the police suspecting them. The first thing they should do is, if the police ask, or even if they don`t, volunteer, get that out of the way so that they can focus their resources where it should go.

GRACE: I always point out -- let me go to Joe Lawless, defense attorney and author of "Prosecutorial Misconduct." Joe, great to see you again. Joe, I always point out Marc Klaas, because when his daughter Polly went missing, the first thing he said to police was polygraph me, don`t waste time on me. I`ll give you anything you want, go search for Polly.

Why isn`t the Anthony family doing that? And then as much as everybody seems to hate Padilla, he`s ready to take a poly?

JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "PROSECUTORIAL MISCONDUCT": Well, I think you`ve got to hand it to Leonard Padilla because there`s offensive polygraphs and defensive polygraphs.

I would never advise a client to do it, only because I think a polygraph is only as good as the person interpreting the results. It doesn`t detect lies or truths. You know it detects bodily responses to questions that I ask.

GRACE: Which are proven to respond when you`re lying. Yes.

LAWLESS: But it`s also.

GRACE: It determines body temperature, sweat, heartbeat. Yes, it detects all of that.

LAWLESS: Cold, stress, anxiety. All of that. I think it`s an investigative tool when someone who is in a position like Marc Klaas was, who comes forward and says, yes, give me a polygraph, because that suggests they believe in their own innocence.

GRACE: But why aren`t the Anthonys taking one? Padilla is ready to take one.

LAWLESS: Well, because at this point I think the police in Florida are -- the police who are involved in the search for Caylee are as much looking for suspects in a murder as they are Caylee. And I think they`re trying to find anyone they can.

I wouldn`t advise them to take it right now, because I don`t know how those results would be interpreted. It`s way too -- I think it`s way too far out in the investigation to let someone in their position do it. I wouldn`t advise them to do it.

GRACE: I want to talk very quickly about the possibility that the tot mom may have to finally speak from behind bars. Certainly not to police. But remember Zenaida Gonzalez, the woman that tot mom accused of kidnapping little Caylee? It turns out she had never even any of the Anthony family?

Well, her lawyer is set to take a deposition under oath, behind bars, of the tot mom.

Unleash the lawyers. Susan Moss, Jason Oshins, Joe Lawless.

Susan Moss, will it work? All she`ll do is take the Fifth Amendment.

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: She may not, because she doesn`t think -- she may not think she is guilty of anything. This -- with this deposition, she is going to need more than the neighbor`s shovel to dig herself out of this one.

GRACE: Jason, is there anything you can say to top that?

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy. I don`t think it`s going to happen as quickly as us and the media would like it to happen, just for the -- you know, the sensationalism. There is a lot more legal maneuvering that`s going to go into this before that ever goes down.

GRACE: Well, Joe lawless, I don`t think it`s going to happen. Because when you know that the -- the person you`re deposing is going to take the Fifth, why would you go ahead and go behind bars?

I mean, she is looking at a murder trial. Why should she go under oath, and for a deposition?

LAWLESS: She shouldn`t, and she won`t. And I think the fact she filed a counterclaim suggests that whoever filed the counterclaim wasn`t thinking. Anyone in her situation should not be giving depositions.

GRACE: No way. No way is she going to give a deposition. I`m surprised the attorney even said it. But I guess he`s got to get it on record.

Let`s go to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He is a consultant on the Casey Anthony defense team. You heard what Lee had to say about Oak Ridge Laboratories, the Body Farm. Do you agree or disagree?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Well, I too am a very good friend of Bill Bass. Let me just say this. The conclusion of their report on air sampling says that it could be human decomposition. It does not say that it is.

That tells me it could be a lot of other things, which apparently is what Doctor Lee is saying.

GRACE: But it is decomposition. That is confirmed. They just don`t know whether it`s human or animal.

KOBILINSKY: That`s -- that is correct.

GRACE: You know, every time you give me an answer, you leave out a little fact, like that big study you told me about, how half of all of the cars searched turned up with chloroform in the trunk. And then I found out only one car turned up with chloroform in the trunk.

KOBILINSKY: Yes, one out of two and the fact that.

GRACE: Yes, I can`t believe you`re actually reiterating it.

KOBILINSKY: Well, the fact that there`s a car with chloroform tells us that that is possible.

GRACE: And, and is what was the amount, the percentage of chloroform in that car?

KOBILINSKY: Well, the fact that it`s there tells us.

GRACE: Negligible, negligible, as opposed to highly saturated in Casey Anthony`s car.

KOBILINSKY: Well, the fact that it was there tells us it can form in a vehicle.

GRACE: I hope you don`t jump up at trial with that one, Kobe.

To Brian Reich, the deputy chief at the Bergen County Sheriff`s Office, Padilla is about to take a polygraph. Have you ever seen law enforcement or a bounty hunter take a polygraph?

BRIAN REICH, DEPUTY CHIEF, BERGEN COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: I haven`t seen a bounty hunter take a polygraph, but I`ve got to tell you, it`s certainly applicable that he should be taking a polygraph. I mean he`s using the media to get a lot of publicity. And if I was running this investigation, I would certainly want him to take one.

GRACE: Are you suggesting that he planted the evidence?

REICH: I`m not suggesting that, but I`m saying I would definitely want him to take a polygraph if I was running this investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY: There is still a chance she`s out there living and breathing. All I`m asking is that everybody gives Caylee that chance and actually continue to look for her. So until they can prove to me 100 percent otherwise, until all the evidence comes in and I actually know what the evidence is, and satisfied in my mind that she is not out there, I`m not going to let her go as long as I have a breath in my body.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DEREK ARMSTRONG, AUTHOR OF "DREW PETERSON EXPOSED": Drew, on Wednesday I`m releasing a story that you`re meeting a lawyer to divorce Stacy. Can you confirm this?

DREW PETERSON, HUSBAND OF MISSING MOTHER STACY PETERSON: No comment.

ARMSTRONG: No denial either?

PETERSON: No nothing.

ARMSTRONG: When I interviewed you for "Drew Peterson Exposed," you mentioned that you would seek a divorce on the one year anniversary, you mentioned it was important to move out of Bolling Brook?

PETERSON: I might have said that.

ARMSTRONG: I have a confirmation that you have an appointment with high profile lawyer.

PETERSON: So?

ARMSTRONG: Who specializes in pre and post-divorce proceedings.

PETERSON: Yes.

ARMSTRONG: You`re seeing him about a divorce?

PETERSON: I`m just getting information right now. I`m exploring options.

ARMSTRONG: On what basis? You said - you`ve said she`s a runaway, that she`s alive.

PETERSON: A desertion. She deserted me. I`ve always aid that I`m mad about that. But I`m looking into this for the kids. This neighborhood is not healthy for my kids because of Sharon Bykowski.

ARMSTRONG: So it`s about selling the house and moving away?

PETERSON: No comment.

ARMSTRONG: Meaning you don`t expect her to return?

PETERSON: Why would she return to all this?

ARMSTRONG: So you`ll sell the house?

PETERSON: No comment.

ARMSTRONG: What about the marital assets?

PETERSON: No comment.

ARMSTRONG: How far away would you move? You mentioned Kentucky and California in my previous interviews with you for "Drew Peterson Exposed."

PETERSON: Out of the neighborhood is important for the kids. Some of the people around here are nuts.

ARMSTRONG: So Kentucky sounds good?

PETERSON: Anywhere sounds good.

ARMSTRONG: Do you expect a not guilty verdict? I released some information to the media on your mock trial for the gun trial where five found you guilty.

PETERSON: Thirteen not guilty.

ARMSTRONG: So then you`d be free to move out of Illinois if you`re found not guilty.

PETERSON: No comment.

ARMSTRONG: Do you think the story of this divorce might encourage Stacy to contact you?

PETERSON: I have nothing more to say.

ARMSTRONG: What about the rumors that the state`s attorney is getting ready to indict for homicide on one of your wives?

PETERSON: I told you. Nothing to say.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: OK. He is facing felony gun charges and a possible homicide charge, and he says the neighbors are the nuts? So he has got to move away from them? OK. That`s former cop turned suspect in his wife`s disappearance, Drew Peterson. You heard him speaking with Derek Armstrong, the author of "Drew Peterson Exposed," a pretty telling expose` of Drew Peterson.

And with me tonight is Derek Armstrong. He is seeking a divorce, it`s apparent. Why, so he can liquidate all of the assets and get out of dodge?

ARMSTRONG: Absolutely, Nancy, that seems to be the case.

GRACE: And I guess the police are just going to twiddle their thumbs and let it happen?

ARMSTRONG: Well, he seems to think they`re always twiddling their thumbs, I think.

GRACE: On what grounds could he actually divorce Stacy Peterson? I guess he`ll show her and divorce her without her being there.

ARMSTRONG: Yes, under Illinois law, according to my research, he can apply under desertion. He`s claiming she ran away, that she hasn`t been around for a year. I think you have to wait a year.

GRACE: What can you tell us about a mock jury that was created at the University of Illinois regarding the pending gun charge?

ARMSTRONG: I obtained some documents on the mock trial with -- they had 18 jurors who are paid, I think, $50 each. And I obtained the questionnaires afterwards, which indicated their verdicts and what they believed, how they believed the defense did on the presentation and also the prosecution.

GRACE: And what was their verdict?

ARMSTRONG: Five found him guilty, 13 not guilty. All of them said they were not swayed by his involvement or, pardon me, the investigation on his wives. And that they were solely based on -- basing their analysis -- their verdicts on the -- the case presented, which was vindictive prosecution as a defense.

GRACE: With me is Derek Armstrong, the author of "Drew Peterson Exposed."

Kathy Chaney, with the "Chicago Defender," quickly, what more can you tell me?

KATHY CHANEY, REPORTER, CHICAGO DEFENDER, COVERING STORY: Pretty much just as Derek said that you do have to wait for about a year for abandonment in order for you to try to file for divorce. He had said previously that, you know, he was looking to move away, but, you know, he can`t do that right now.

And Stacy`s name is on some of the property, including the house. So that would be impossible for him to do with her still around, with him still married. So right now, it does point that he is looking to get a divorce.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Susan Moss, Jason Oshins, both out of New York, Joe Lawless out of Philadelphia.

Susan, what do you think?

MOSS: Giving this guy a divorce is like giving Hannibal Lecter steak sauce. But there is good news, because in Illinois there is very broad discovery rules. So if he wants to go and claim desertion, that is going to open up depositions, all types of discovery instruments to find out what happened to Stacy.

GRACE: What about it, Joe Lawless?

LAWLESS: My question would be, who would take the discovery? If she`s abandoned, they`re going to file an affidavit that they tried to serve her, couldn`t find her, there is no one representing Stacy. I think he gets a divorce, unless the judge wants to stay it, pending the murder investigation.

GRACE: Well, Jason Oshins, what would happen with her share of all of the assets?

OSHINS: Well, depending upon if there is a will or not, an administrator can be appointed for her assets, and they can be distributed either to the children, or whoever is named in the will. If there is no will.

GRACE: She has to be declared dead.

OSHINS: Yes, it`s -- well.

GRACE: But if the children get her share of the assets, he`ll get his mitts on it.

OSHINS: Yes, they`re going to declare her dead one way or another, either by the murder investigation, or by a civil finding based on the abandonment.

GRACE: To Derek Armstrong, who wrote "Drew Peterson Exposed," do you truly believe that murder charges are coming down?

ARMSTRONG: I actually do believe in the case of Kathleen Savio that there is an indictment case coming down. I have no evidence of that, it`s just that the hearsay law in Illinois would apply more to that case.

GRACE: And the legislature has changed the hearsay law. And how will that, in a nutshell, help prosecutors that are prosecuting Drew Peterson?

ARMSTRONG: I believe because of a couple of pieces of hearsay, one was Kathleen Savio`s letter indicating that if something happened to her, that Drew did it. And the other would be Pastor Scorey`s hearsay testimony that Stacy told him that Drew had killed Kathleen.

GRACE: To Brian Reich, do you find it suspicious that he wants a divorce?

REICH: Yes, I certainly do. I mean, if your spouse ran off and left you, you would think you`d want to cherish that memory and not end it and not have it final. So if I was investigating this crime I would definitely find that suspicious and want to put a lot more efforts into it.

GRACE: That hearsay rule about to pass the Illinois House is expected to pass, and very quickly, to Dr. Janet Taylor, psychiatrist, what do you make of him being so audacious as to speak a divorce when he`s suspected of killing her?

DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, clearly in his mind either she`s gone or not coming back. And I think, again, it seems like he`s just not thinking about the children. They`ve had a major loss. And now even if he files for divorce, you know how traumatic that is to a family. So he`s got to think about the welfare of his kids.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ARMSTRONG: Do you expect a not guilty verdict? I released some information to the media on your mock trial for the gun trial where five found you guilty.

PETERSON: Thirteen not guilty.

ARMSTRONG: So then you`d be free to move out of Illinois if you`re found not guilty.

PETERSON: No comment.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: You know what, there ought to be a law. Can`t you see all that money being funneled away to Turks & Caicos somewhere, Susan Moss?

MOSS: It`s possible but a smart judge will reserve the issue of equitable distribution and the division of marital property.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Angie in Virginia. Hi, Angie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Uhm.

GRACE: Yes?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sorry. I was wondering if they ever asked somebody like Tim Miller to search for Stacy.

GRACE: What do we know, Kathy Chaney? What type of searches have gone on?

CHANEY: You know what, nothing too much lately. It`s just pretty much like the water searches, air searches. But there hasn`t been a vigorous search lately at all.

GRACE: But there were very vigorous searches when she went missing, correct?

CHANEY: When she went missing, yes. They did.

GRACE: Yes.

CHANEY: In the water, in the air, but lately, nothing too much.

GRACE: To Dana in Washington, hi, Dana.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: What`s your question, love?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Since the third wife was re-ruled as a homicide, can`t the family of this woman take him to court and sue him for death or wrong suit just like the Goldmans did for O.J. Simpson?

GRACE: Aren`t they doing that, Derek Armstrong?

ARMSTRONG: Yes, I believe they have retained a lawyer in New York.

GRACE: Yes. I think they have. And it remains to be seen what will become of it.

Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Joseph Ford, 23, Knox, Indiana, killed Iraq. Left studies at University Southern Indiana to deploy. Loved history, fencing, Greek and Roman mythology, studying the medieval period. Leaves behind grieving parents Sam and Darlene, widow Karen.

Joseph Ford, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/17/ng.01.html
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« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2008, 07:43:55 AM »

NANCY GRACE

Missing Toddler`s Mother Unable to Look at Pix of Her Daughter

Aired November 19, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 22 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. We go inside the Anthony home, including little Caylee`s bedroom. What clues does it hold? And tonight, mom Casey`s movements, her actions, her behavior in the first days after her initial release from jail revealed, the tot mom refusing to sleep in her room surrounded by Caylee`s photos -- I wonder why -- watching all of her favorite TV shows, even watching her parents battle protesters right outside the front door, but never lifting a finger in the search for Caylee.

Mom Casey shows no emotion while she sits on the sofa, watching TV about the search. When she learns about evidence of human decomposition in her car trunk, the tot mom blames other people she claims borrowed her car and then simply leaves the room.

And a heart-wrenching look at Caylee`s favorite toys, her favorite pets, the Christmas gifts still filling her little bedroom unopened, and her favorite playhouse in the back yard, the same back yard where cadaver dogs alert to the scent of human decomposition.

Tonight, we learn the Anthonys all set for a blockbuster press conference where they claim they`ll announce evidence that Caylee`s alive. Psychics back on the scene in Orlando to resume their search for the little girl as tot mom Casey Anthony spends days and nights eating, lounging, reading, napping, ordering from the menu of high-end snacks, watching herself on television. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: Having Thanksgiving come, it`s not going to be our normal, you know, Thanksgiving.

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG (voice-over): The word "normal" has become a stranger to George and Cindy Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Child abuse!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) You can`t come out here and face us!

D`ONOFRIO: Their lives have been turned upside-down since Caylee disappeared and Casey was arrested. There are the personal attacks...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Baby killer~! Baby killer!

D`ONOFRIO: ... and the possibility their granddaughter is dead and the young woman they raised for 22 years could be responsible.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A lot of people want to say, Cindy and George are in such denial. Why can`t they just see it the way we see it?

CINDY ANTHONY: Until I know 100 percent where Caylee is at, I am not going to give up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, a quiet close-knit Arizona community in shock, an 8-year-old little boy accused of double murder, allegedly confessing to gunning down his own father and his father`s friend, and it`s all caught on tape. We have the tape. An 8-year-old charged with two counts of murder one?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What happened with your dad?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Come on. Tell us the truth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not! I`m not lying!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did (DELETED) shoot your dad?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I -- I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you shoot your dad?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think so.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You think so? Did you shoot him because you were mad at him?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. I think I shot my dad because he was suffering, I think. I think he was suffering.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) I didn`t want him to suffer.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The boy`s lawyer says he believes the court may not accept the taped statement because he was not represented by a family member or an attorney.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

D`ONOFRIO (voice-over): When Casey got out of jail the first time, when the convoy of SUVs delivered her home and the garage door closed, the Anthonys told me that`s when they felt suddenly trapped, prisoners in their own home, when their mission was to continue their search for Caylee.

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey didn`t want to come in here at first. It was hard because this is where -- you know, this is where her and Caylee spent most of their time. We got an air mattress, and she wanted to stay in our room. And we have a big enough bedroom that she had a big enough space, and that`s where she stayed for the first week.

D`ONOFRIO: Cindy says Casey had a hard time being alone in her own bedroom, which is covered with pictures of Caylee, from those first ultrasounds to her birth and beyond, the two of them together.

CINDY ANTHONY: And this is Caylee`s room. This is very hard to come in now, and people are starting to send Christmas presents to us already for Caylee.

D`ONOFRIO: Her tea party table remains empty.

CINDY ANTHONY: I open the door a couple times a week. I was in her room earlier today, just sitting and reflecting and crying.

D`ONOFRIO: And her favorite pets, Tilly (ph) and Tinker (ph), run into her room, still looking for Caylee.

CINDY ANTHONY: I still have three bags of birthday presents in my closet. So yes, I`ll probably buy Christmas presents for her, too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG, who took that exclusive tour of the Anthony home. Tell us what you observed, Jessica.

D`ONOFRIO: Well, you know, we started in Caylee`s room, and it`s just amazing to see that little girl`s bedroom. You were showing what we shot in there -- all of the presents, the presents in the corner of her room, on the floor that have just gone unopened. She was supposed to celebrate a birthday back in August. Obviously, she hasn`t opened any of those presents. And now gifts from all over the country are coming in for Christmas for this child.

After that, we moved on to Casey`s room and we sat on Casey`s bed. I talked to Cindy for quite some time. And the whole room is plastered with pictures of the child. You know, we saw those ultrasounds. We saw -- you can`t move a step in the house without running into a family picture, especially of Casey or Caylee or both of them together. That room is covered in pictures. And we know that Casey was an avid photographer. She wasn`t a professional photographer, but she took so many pictures.

GRACE: With us, Jessica D`Onofrio, who had that exclusive tour inside the Anthony home. What do we learn? We are taking your calls live.

Right now, to Dr. Caryn Stark, psychologist in New York. Caryn, I`m not really that surprised -- I mean, I`m just a lawyer, you`re the shrink - - that she couldn`t stay in the room plastered with Caylee`s photos staring down at her. I guess not.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it`s also hard, Nancy, because she`s so removed from her emotions that it`s hard for me to understand why that would even bother her. It doesn`t make a lot of sense. This is somebody who really can`t feel the way we feel.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who was there inside the home after her initial release from jail. Did she have a problem looking at photos of Caylee at that time?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, I don`t -- I don`t remember any photos of Caylee at the time in her room. And the reason that she wasn`t allowed to be in her room out of her parents room -- and incidentally George didn`t sleep in his bedroom, he slept on the couch -- was that Jose didn`t want her alone with Tracy in any other room of the house, so he told her to sleep in the parents` bedroom. But George wasn`t there. It was just Cindy and her.

GRACE: You know, I couldn`t hear you. Why did she sleep in the parents` bedroom?

PADILLA: Because Jose, her attorney, did not want her in any other room where her and Tracy might be alone. On more than one occasion, when he was in the house and they were off in a room by themselves, he`d go over there and grab Casey and say, There you are, yakking again, get out of there.

GRACE: Let`s take a look inside the Anthony home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: There`s only one ultimate being that can judge another human being, and that`s almighty God. So anybody else, they`re going to have to face their maker one day. And George and I and Casey and Lee will walk up to our maker and not have any problem going into the gates of heaven because we have not done anything wrong.

And this is Caylee`s room. This is very hard to come in now, and people are starting to send Christmas presents to us already for Caylee. I open the door a couple times a week. I was in her room earlier today, just sitting and reflecting and crying. I still have three bags of birthday presents in my closet. So yes, I`ll probably buy Christmas presents for her, too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I want to unleash the lawyers, Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, Doug Burns. You know, Susan Moss, it speaks volumes to me that she cannot stand to be in a room with Caylee`s photos looking down at her.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely. And you know, for somebody who has gone to bars after the missing -- her daughter went missing, bought videos, cooked dinner, cooked, cleaned for her boyfriend, it seems sort of strange that now she`s having this conscience problem.

GRACE: What about it, Renee?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I don`t know why you would find that strange. Maybe she feels bad because the child is gone. I don`t think...

GRACE: But according to her, the child is still alive.

ROCKWELL: I said the child was gone, not dead. And just because she can`t be around the child, maybe it looks kind of human that she misses the child.

GRACE: Renee? Renee?

ROCKWELL: Yes?

GRACE: Photo (ph) of Renee, please. Renee, I recall distinctly that you lost your first husband in a car crash. You never had a problem looking at his photos.

ROCKWELL: Initially, I did, Nancy. I didn`t want to see them.

GRACE: Not what you said in the past.

ROCKWELL: But Nancy, in fact...

GRACE: You left -- you left the laundry in the washer that he mixed the white and the red together.

ROCKWELL: And everything was pink.

GRACE: And it all got pink. You left it there for a long time because you didn`t want to take it out.

ROCKWELL: I know that, Nancy. But what I`m trying to say is some people grieve in different ways. She doesn`t want to look at -- this is the most human thing that she`s experienced.

GRACE: Don`t try and pull over on me, Renee. You know this is an unusual response.

And to you, Doug Burns, defense attorney here in New York...

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.

GRACE: Doug, if she really thought that her little girl was just missing...

BURNS: Right.

GRACE: ... and not dead, she would not have a problem just looking at a photo of her. That is BS.

BURNS: Look, there`s no question that some of these human responses teach us experts, seriously, what we think went on. And I agree with you, Nancy. The only point I would make in support of my defense colleagues is a lot of times, it doesn`t translate into a defense, you know, in court.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

TONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: What happened was, I was just sitting there with my roommate, Nathan. We were playing video games, and she -- and Casey was sitting there on the couch also, on the laptop. And then all of a sudden, there was a knock at the door.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She did not mention to us that Caylee was missing. We were under the impression that she was with the nanny.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: Hey.

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: Hey. Can you get me Tony`s number? Because I called to talk to my mother, and it`s -- it`s a (DELETED) waste.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Having Thanksgiving come, it`s not going to be our normal, you know, Thanksgiving.

D`ONOFRIO (voice-over): The word "normal" has become a stranger to George and Cindy Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Child abuse!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) You can`t come out here and face us!

D`ONOFRIO: Their lives have been turned upside-down since Caylee disappeared and Casey was arrested. There are the personal attacks...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Baby killer~! Baby killer!

D`ONOFRIO: ... and the possibility their granddaughter is dead and the young woman they raised for 22 years could be responsible.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A lot of people want to say, Cindy and George are in such denial. Why can`t they just see it the way we see it?

CINDY ANTHONY: Until I know 100 percent where Caylee is at, I am not going to give up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And we are still waiting on the Anthony family press conference, guaranteed to be a black blockbuster, in which they`ll reveal their evidence that little Caylee is still alive.

Back to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Have you learned what that evidence is yet?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, they say there was at least one sighting in Gainesville and other tips that they`re calling reliable. They`re going to be joined by Kidfinders, their private investigator, and also their lawyer, Mark Nejame.

But we heard from a spokesperson with the sheriff`s office today, and he said that, you know, basically, these leads that they`re following are not true. The evidence -- there`s one -- hope is one thing, but the evidence shows that Caylee is dead, and they are not going to follow these leads around the country anymore.

GRACE: To Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Nikki, has the Gainesville sighting been followed up? What do we know about the Gainesville sighting?

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Well, we know very little about that one. The one in Coral Springs was followed up on and found to be false. As far as we know, the Gainesville one is false, too, but I don`t have a lot of detail on that. As Drew said, all we know so far is that these tips that the Anthonys are calling credible are coming in. But we don`t know what this additional evidence is supposed to be that they have, this blockbuster evidence. It`s anyone`s guess.

GRACE: To Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG, who has spent all this time inside the Anthony home. Did the Anthonys reveal to you what their evidence is that Caylee is alive?

D`ONOFRIO: Absolutely not, Nancy. We`re still waiting to hear, like everybody is waiting to hear. But one thing that the investigators say is, you know, If you have this evidence that this little baby is alive, well, give it to us, show it to us, let us know what it is so we can go get her.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Madge in West Virginia. Hi, Madge.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I was wondering about Casey`s boyfriend. When he picked her up in the car, did she have any type of smell to her clothing or anything? If she was in the car, she would have the smell with -- that was the smell that was in the car.

GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx. I know that Tony Lazzaro has been questioned, has cooperated with police, opened up his apartment for them to search. Did he mention any smell on Casey Anthony?

PETRIMOULX: No. And he talks about that time when he picked her up in front of the Amscot, she was holding groceries. The investigator doesn`t ask him about any smell, and no, he doesn`t mention that she smelled like any kind of decomposition or anything like that.

GRACE: We do know, Madge in West Virginia, that the clothes she had been wearing were left in the car, and they reeked so badly that mom Cindy Anthony washed them, thus destroying any forensic evidence that may have been on them, unwittingly.

Joining me right now, Tim Miller, the president of Texas Equusearch. Tim, welcome back. I understand that you have your members from Equusearch still there in Florida, and they are going to resume the search. Where are they going to look, Tim?

TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: You know, Nancy, they`re actually going over areas we don`t know if we did well enough, you know, when we were there before, checking everything twice. It`s going to be actually at a smaller scale, of course, than it was before. We`ve got 86 members down there, going to keep following up on this search, and you know, hopefully, one day, you know, find that lucky spot and bring it to a close.

GRACE: Tim Miller, it`s my understanding you have just come back from a search in which you were successful?

MILLER: You know what we did yesterday Nancy, we left Florida, went to North Carolina. We got called on one in Brian (ph), Texas, right there at Texas A&M University, a 23-year-old that disappeared 3:00 o`clock Saturday morning. They found his vehicle burned at 7:00 o`clock in the morning. We got there on -- we put people on the search two days ago to get everything organized. We got into town 4:00 o`clock in the morning, 8:00 o`clock we was out searching. We had searchers in an area where the car was found burned.

And we knew where point A was, where he was last seen, apartments, point B, where the vehicle was found. And Lisa Hoffman and me actually found his body five miles away from where the vehicle was found. So you know what? When you know where they disappeared from, and when you get in there in a short period of time and you`ve got things to look for -- and the only reason we found him is that we seen tire marks going to...

GRACE: So you did find him. Just off a successful find, Tim Miller with Texas Equusearch has his crew of nearly 100 searchers still in the Orlando area searching for Caylee.

Out to the lines. Beverly in Canada. Hi, Beverly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Belated happy birthday to your two little darlings.

GRACE: Thank you very...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s hard to believe a year has gone by.

GRACE: I can`t believe it. I count my blessings every day, Beverly. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, they`re adorable. I think your son looks like you.

GRACE: Oh, well, I`m going to take that as a compliment. I`m going to take that as a compliment.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, by all means.

GRACE: The little thing, today was the first day he refused to take a nap. He`s just miserable. What`s your question, love?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. First of all, I got a comment. I think Cindy Anthony knows more than what she`s letting on. I really do. And I think she has an idea what happened to Caylee. She doesn`t want to admit it. My question, the fellow that said he`d seen Casey with the hat and the shovel, and there was a well-dressed man standing by the road, like as if he was fishing -- has anybody asked that gentleman if this fellow he was talking about, a description, his height, color of his hair, what shoes he was wearing? Has any investigation been done regarding that so-called man?

GRACE: Excellent question. Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, what do we know?

PETRIMOULX: You know, that really hasn`t been treated as a credible sighting from investigators. We get a lot of tips in. We`ve had sightings in Tennessee and Coral Springs and Gainesville, Texas, all over the country. And basically, now they`re focused on finding a dead body, and they have said that, you know, a lot of these sightings are not credible.

GRACE: Everyone, we`ll be right back, and when we come back, the psychic leading a group of psychics that are converging in the Orlando area to continue the search is joining us, Gayle St. John (ph). We are taking your calls.

And quickly, to tonight`s "Case Alert," The search for a suspect in the murder of a gorgeous little 9-year-old Florida girl, Mya Lyons found stabbed to death July 18 in an alleyway yards from her own home. A person of interest questioned and released, a knife also discovered at the scene. Police say the murder location leads them to believe someone knows what happened. A $6,000 reward. If you have information, please call Chicago police 312-747-8271.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Straight out to the lines. Stephanie in Kansas. Hi, Stephanie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. My question is, with all these pictures they`re showing us of the Anthonys` home and everything, why isn`t there a picture of the baby-sitter, Zanny, with this child that she supposedly watched for three years?

GRACE: Excellent question. What about it, Leonard Padilla?

PADILLA: There`s never been any connection between Zenaida Gonzalez. She never held the baby. She never sat her on her lap. It was totally a figment of Casey`s imagination that she came up when she ran across the information at the Sawgrass Apartments, where her friends Dante (ph) and Ann (ph) lived, totally made up, a patsy in case the cops found her, and where we believe...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is how Cindy and George Anthony spend most of their days, constantly on the phone, checking into tips that their granddaughter Caylee may still be alive.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: You would think someone would want to be, quote, quote, "a white knight" or our hero.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On this day, the couple is frustrated and worrying in the kitchen.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: We`re not supposed to get upset.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They get a tip that Caylee was spotted at an East Orange County auto zone.

C. ANTHONY: We should have every right -- every right to be able to rule out or to look and see and to verify whether it is her or not. If they`re talking about delaying looking for someone, are they any better than my daughter, when they said that -- condemned and criticized her for waiting months, because she was afraid to go to authorities?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, an exclusive look inside the Anthony home, including the discovery that tot mom Casey Anthony refused to sleep in the bedroom with the walls plastered of little Caylee.

Back to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG, who went inside the Anthony home.

What else did you learn, Jessica?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WKMG: Very interesting, Nancy. When we were sitting on the bed there in Casey`s room, we were sitting right next to this teddy bear, and Cindy Anthony told me that Casey needed to hug that teddy bear in order to get to sleep.

So, you know, we`re talking about this very steely, you know, what many people -- who many people are calling a baby killer here. And Cindy is describing to me how hard it was for her to sleep in that room. Cindy says she had to sleep by her side -- by Casey`s side several nights to get her to sleep, back in her bed. And that she had to hug that teddy bear for several nights to get her to sleep.

That was a very interesting piece of information for, you know, such a young woman who we hear on such an even tone, sometimes swearing at her parents in some of these jail house conversations. And that she had to hug a teddy bear?

It`s just very interesting, because you hear Cindy talk about her almost like Casey, this 22-year-old woman, is a 10-year-old. Very interesting.

GRACE: Back inside the Anthony home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

C. ANTHONY: Put a call into my attorney, so I kind of need to know where we need to go from here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is how Cindy and George Anthony spend most of their days, constantly on the phone, checking into tips that their granddaughter Caylee may still be alive.

G. ANTHONY: You would think someone would want to be, quote, quote, "our white knight" or our hero.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On this day, the couple is frustrated and worrying in the kitchen.

C. ANTHONY: We`re not supposed to get upset.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They get a tip that Caylee was spotted at an East Orange County auto zone.

C. ANTHONY: We should have every right -- every right to be able to rule out or to look and see and to verify whether it is her or not.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But there is legal red tape, which delays them from viewing the surveillance video, and the tip never pans out.

C. ANTHONY: If they`re talking about delaying, looking for someone, are they any better than my daughter when they said that -- condemned and criticized her for waiting a month because she was afraid to go to authorities?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Joining me right now, Gale St. John, psychic detective and host of the "Body Hunters," she is searching for Caylee Anthony.

Miss St. John, thank you for being with us. Tell me about your search for Caylee. I understand you`re about to resume.

GALE ST. JOHN, PSYCHIC DETECTIVE, SEARCHING FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Yes, actually today we did resume. We had checked out some areas that we had gotten tips on. We did not find anything in those areas.

GRACE: Where did you search?

ST. JOHN: We had had a lot of tips, and people wanting us to go to the area, the Greenwood Cemetery Area, and Lake Underhill, and we did look through -- you know, at those areas, and check out the tips. We did not find anything. We did look in those areas.

GRACE: Did you take cadaver dogs?

ST. JOHN: We did not have cadaver dogs this time. We do possibly have some coming up around Friday, but we`re still looking into it, some local ones.

GRACE: How many psychics did you lead today?

ST. JOHN: Today was only myself, here and my daughter has been out searching with us, as well as our search coordinator and the volunteers. And we have volunteers that have been here locally searching in between since I left the last time until now. So we have had had people.

GRACE: We`re showing video right now of the search. The underbrush is so incredibly thick it`s very difficult to search.

Miss St. John, I know that you know many people do not believe in psychics, but tell me what visions or feelings have you had that lead you on your search? Regarding Caylee?

ST. JOHN: Well, you know, as vague as it sounds, because we don`t let a lot of information out, because we don`t want to, you know, lead someone to go and tamper with any type of evidence such as, you know, destroy the, you know, crime scene or anything.

But we did see water areas. We did see woods. We have seen other certain very particular things that we`re looking for. That is what we`ve continued to look for.

GRACE: Like what?

ST. JOHN: We haven`t seen.

GRACE: What are you looking for?

ST. JOHN: Well, there was a certain type of flower that we saw. And we are looking for that particular type. Those are things that when we`ve gotten in these areas, we haven`t seen them.

Had we done a thorough search in the areas, even if we did not see, you know, those particular things, yes, we still did, we`re still a search team, and we need to clear the areas.

GRACE: With me, Gale St. John who is continuing the search.

Now out to the lines. Eileen, hi, Eileen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, it`s kind of a little bit intense, and hopefully you`ll understand what I`m asking. I want to know if the detectives have watched the movies that were rented that had to do with child death to see if there`s any similarity and maybe that that would help them lead if she has put several of these scripts together to kill this child.

GRACE: Excellent question.

To Nikki Pierce with WDBO, we have video of Casey Anthony in a Blockbuster, renting videos around the time little Caylee went missing. We know that those videos dealt with murder, including a body in a trunk. What can you tell us?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Well, we do know that the investigators have taken a look at the topics that were covered in those, as you say one of the movies had a something to do -- had a scene where an FBI agent found a decomposing body in a trunk. And the other one had something to do, actually, with a mother abandoning a child.

We know that they are looking into those, but we don`t know if there have been any clues derived from them yet.

GRACE: To Ron Shindel, former NYPD deputy inspector -- Ron, thank you for being with us. I was listening to what Cindy Anthony had to say as to why should the search be called off for her granddaughter.

How long will police continue looking for someone alive when a murder one charge has come down?

RON SHINDEL, FMR. NYPD DEPUTY INSPECTOR: Well, Nancy, I don`t know if they`re looking for someone alive, as much as they`re looking for any clues that will lead them to find someone alive or someone dead at this point.

Obviously here we don`t have a body, we don`t have a child, and they`re going to keep searching until everything has been exhausted.

GRACE: Do you think it is unreasonable for the Anthonys to ask police to continue looking for Caylee alive?

SHINDEL: Alive I think at this point, in my opinion, yes. However, I think the search should still go on, and whatever they can find may lead them to the actual answers in this case. I think that would be a worthwhile pursuit.

GRACE: Those movies, "Untraceable," about a kidnapper and killer, and "Jumper," about a mother who abandons her 5-year-old child.

Very quickly, to Dr. Joshua Perper, chief medical examiner in Broward County, Dr. Perper, in your experience, after this much time has passed, do you believe Caylee`s remains will be found?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": In my opinion, it is that they are not going to find the -- the remains. I think that`s very low probability event, and while it`s possible, it`s highly improbable.

GRACE: And Dr. Perper, if they were found, what condition would they be?

PERPER: Well, the body by now it might be even skeletonized or it might be a little bit of soft tissue. But as I said, I don`t believe they`ll find the body.

GRACE: Very difficult to find a skeletonized body in this type of undergrowth.

Everyone, we`re taking your calls live. As we go to break, our thoughts and prayers tonight with the family and colleagues of veteran attorney Milton M. Ferrell Jr. He passed away Saturday.

He was the chairman and president of Ferrell Law, a Miami-based firm representing corporations and individuals around the world. He got his B.A. and J.D. from Mercer University, practiced law in Florida, in New York, D.C., Georgia, all around the world.

A pillar in the legal community, he was the president of the Jackson Memorial Foundation and on the boards of the American Red Cross, and so many charitable and cultural organizations, I can`t name them. All while being named one of "Worth" magazine`s top 100 attorneys in the U.S. but not just a stellar attorney.

He had a heart of gold. Gregarious, outgoing, would give you the shirt off his back. With a smile that lit up a room. He leaves behind wife Lori, and two children, Britney and Morgan.

Milton Ferrell, good night, friend.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An 8-year-old Arizona boy who is accused of killing his father and another man faces two counts of premeditated murder. Prosecutors have released videotape now of a police interview with the child in which he admits firing at least two shots at each man.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I started walking down the street towards my house and I saw the door open and I saw (bleeped) right there and I ran and I said, Dad, Dad, and then I went upstairs and then I saw him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then you saw him?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was blood all over his face I think and I think I touched it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You think you did touch it? What did you do when you touched it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just kind of checked if he was a little bit alive.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You checked if he was a little bit alive? And how did you do that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I kind of just went like that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With your foot?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think so, yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Mike Watkiss with CNN affiliate KTVK in court today.

Mike, heart breaking. What happened?

MIKE WATKISS, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE KTVK, IN COURT TODAY: Yes, at so many levels, Nancy, this thing will just tear the heart right out of your chest. A little 8-year-old boy accused of shooting and killing his 29-year-old father, and another 39-year-old family friend two weeks ago tonight.

The little boy has been the subject of all kinds of international attention since that time. The day after the homicides, the two men were shot, that interview with police here in the little eastern Arizona town of St. Johns conducted.

A woman from the county sheriff`s office and the local police department conducting that interview, in which the little boy first says, basically, I didn`t do it. I got home after school, and I found my dad dead and the other man dead. Over the course of more than an hour, his story changes to where he`s basically saying that he pulled out his gun.

He never confesses to shooting the men being the first shooter. He says that there was some unnamed sort of faceless intruders who may have shot them and then he pulled out his gun and shot them to put them out of their misery.

You know a convoluted story, but clearly the child saying in front of those investigators on that tape that he did pull the trigger and shoot each man at least twice. They were in court today, trying to figure out what do you do with a little 8-year-old boy accused of what, in essence, is a premeditated double homicide.

GRACE: Take a look at this interrogation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How many times do you think you fired the gun? Just try to (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think twice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You think twice? Do you think it could have been more than twice?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I thought it was twice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. You shot your dad twice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And then how many times did that gun shoot (bleeped)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think twice like my dad.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the room where we talk to people and we make a promise to each other that we`re only going to tell the truth. OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That means I have to tell you the truth. I can`t lie. (Bleeped) can`t lie, and you can`t lie. Is that OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re just going to talk truth, OK? We`re not going to make anything up. We`re just going to be honest, OK? Even if it`s bad stuff, OK? We just need to talk the truth. Just us in this room. Is that OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Robin Sax, juvenile prosecutor joining us out of L.A. -- Robin, I just don`t think this boy should go to jail. I just don`t think an 8-year-old should go to jail. But I don`t know what the answer is.

ROBIN SAX, JUVENILE PROSECUTOR: Nancy, I`m surprised, actually, hearing you say that. I thought that, you know, usually you`re the tougher on crime than I am. And in this case, I just think that it is such a terrible message to not hold, even as sad as it may be, an 8-year-old culpable in some way, jail, mental facility, something, but not nothing.

GRACE: Something, yes, but jail? A typical juvie facility for an 8- year-old?

SAX: Well, if the elements of the crime are there, and there is specific intent to kill, and there is calculated evidence and you have a confession, if -- it`s unfortunate, it`s heart breaking, it`s sad.

But it just may be the place for him for no other reason than to send the message to everybody that you are going to do the crime. You may have to do the time.

GRACE: Well, you know, how many other 8 years old do you think are actually watching TV and learning about this? What messages do you want to send? To who? All the 8-year-old viewers?

SAX: I think the message is being sent to all of the people around who are taught -- all of the parents out there who are listening, who are talking to their kids, all of us who sit here and comment on these cases and it trickles down, I think that these do become the subject of conversations around St. John.

GRACE: Well, you know what, Robin -- Robin Sax with us, juvenile prosecutor in Los Angeles -- maybe you`re right. Maybe jail is the right thing, and I just don`t want it for an 8-year-old boy. But maybe that is the only alternative. I don`t know.

Very quickly, to James Gannalo, firearms expert, with Stria Consulting Group, joining us from New York.

James, would the gunshot residue most likely still be on the boy`s hands or clothing? He wouldn`t know to get rid of it.

JAMES GANNALO, FIREARMS EXAMINER, STRIA CONSULTING GROUP: Not at this point, obviously, Nancy.

GRACE: I mean, immediately after.

GANNALO: If it was soon enough, if it was timely enough, they could have tested the boy`s hands for the presence of gunshot residue.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, in addition to Robin Sax, Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, Doug Burns.

Renee, weigh in.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Are we assuming that everything we`ve heard is just going to get in the court, Nancy? The first thing the defense attorney is going to do is try to keep that out.

GRACE: OK. Agreed. But most likely, it`s going to come in.

ROCKWELL: Because?

GRACE: Because the child apparently voluntarily began speaking.

ROCKWELL: But how is the child -- that`s 8 years old going to even know that he has a right not to talk about it? I mean, just because he`s - - that young?

GRACE: And why are you assuming he wasn`t read his rights?

ROCKWELL: How is a child going to understand that.

GRACE: The same way you`re saying how is he going to understand he has got a right to a lawyer. I mean, he doesn`t understand.

ROCKWELL: And Nancy, what are we going to do, try him as an adult? Maybe we`ll let him represent himself.

GRACE: I thank you for the -- I mean, snarky comments, but I`m looking for an answer, so just -- you know.

ROCKWELL: Nancy, there`s no.

GRACE: . put a sock in it.

Sue Moss, you`re the child advocate. What do you think?

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Look, he may be the Doogie Howser of murderers, but that interrogation was disgusting. They repeatedly asked him again, and again, did you shoot your father, did you shoot father?

This was not a discussion with a witness. This was a discussion with a suspect. He should have had an adult. He should have had a guardian. He should have had a lawyer in there and this was a disgrace.

GRACE: OK, you know what? I appreciate all of that, ladies. But the issue is the death of the father and the friend. That`s what we are talking about right now. You can all gnash your teeth and swish your tails about should he have gotten Miranda. But I am going to talk about what`s going to happen to this kid?

Doug, thoughts?

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The reality is that he`s so close in age to ages where there`s no culpability, 6, 7. He`s 8. He`s not 16, he`s not 17. This has to be handled and adjudicated as a juvenile matter. The rules of evidence and everything else are relaxed and much less formal. And that`s what`s going to happen. And he`s not going to go to prison as an adult.

GRACE: Very quickly, Ron Shindel, how do you approach a juvenile interrogation?

SHINDEL: Well, there should have been an adult, whether it`s the parent, the one remaining parent, or a guardian there in the -- in the room when the child was interrogated.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you shoot your dad?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think so.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You think so? Did you shoot him because you were mad at him?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you shoot your dad?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think so.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You think so? Did you shoot him because you were mad at him?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight back to Mike Watkiss with KTVK in court today. What do you believe is going to be the outcome? Are prosecutors planning to prosecute him for murder one, two count?

WATKISS: Well, they certainly said that they had every intention of trying him as adult. This was really what set this in motion. Early on the chief of police here in the little town of St. John said that this was so, you know, premeditated, so calculated on the part of this little boy. They wanted.

GRACE: There isn`t any reason.

WATKISS: . to try him as an adult.

GRACE: Do they have any sufficient evidence to a motive?

WATKISS: The only motive that came out during that very lengthy interview with police that he had been disciplined, had been spanked a day before by his stepmother, encouraged by his father to discipline the boy. He had apparently some disciplinary issues at school and for lying at home.

But I think most of us when we come to a story like this, we think we`re going to find that oh, yes, revolution, there`s abuse, there`s this, there`s that, to explain it. There is none of that.

GRACE: Mike, Mike.

WATKISS: There has been some discipline in the home right before the shoot.

GRACE: Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike. What kind of a weapon was in the home? And how did the boy get to it?

WATKISS: It was his weapon. The father had bought it. The dad`s a hunter. He bought himself -- he bought little boy a .22 caliber rifle that you need to reload with each shot.

GRACE: Good lord. He gave an 8-year-old a .22?

WATKISS: That`s exactly right. Nancy. And a lot of people will tell you that in every home in this rural community there are firearms at hand. Whether that`s a good defense or not.

GRACE: Mike Watkiss, standing by from KTVK. We`ll keep you updated.

But now I want to stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Victor Cota, 33, Tucson, Arizona, killed Iraq. Awarded the Purple Heart, Army Commendation medal, National Defense Service model.

His friends called him Chico. He had a smile that lit up a room, loved singing, dancing, making people laugh, family. Leaves behind grieving mom Mariela, brother Gilberto, widow Liliana, two children.

Victor Cota, American hero.

Thank you to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END


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« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2008, 08:34:38 AM »

NANCY GRACE

Anthony Grandparents Call Off News Conference as Attorney Quits

Aired November 20, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 22 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Orange County police announce they are no longer looking for a live Caylee. Does that mean they`ve stopped pursuing alleged sightings of the little girl? And tonight, investigators drop a bomb. The FBI confirms Caylee is dead. And a high-profile lawyer representing grandparents George and Cindy Anthony walks off the job. That`s right, he quits. He only says he worked with grandparents George and Cindy if he could search for Caylee without restrictions. Apparently, that didn`t happen. As we go to air, the Anthonys call off the so-called blockbuster press conference where they promised to reveal evidence proving Caylee`s alive, but why?

And tonight, a deeper look inside the Anthony home. We`ve now learned mom Casey`s movement, her actions, her behaviors in her first days after her release from jail. But tonight comes word of an eerie and haunting song the tot mom listened to over and over and over again after Caylee goes missing, a song about leaving another soul behind, a song about the pain she, the tot mom, is suffering. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl!

I need to find her!

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An Orange County sheriff`s office spokesperson says FBI evidence proves that little Caylee is dead.

CARLOS PADILLA, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S SPOKESMAN: You look at the evidence that the child is alive, there is none.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Orange County authorities say they have stopped following up on all live sighting tips and have no reason to search for a living, breathing Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Padilla says they are confident that FBI lab tests on evidence found in her mother`s car prove that Caylee is dead. That finding, he says, is backed up by the grand jury`s murder indictment of her mother, Casey Anthony.

CARLOS PADILLA: We cannot continue to look when we don`t have any evidence whatsoever to indicate that she`s alive.

CINDY ANTHONY: Caylee is not dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s living in total denial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, the mystery surrounding 23-year-old mom Stacy Peterson vanishing, upscale Chicago suburbs, husband/cop Drew Peterson the prime suspect in his fourth wife`s disappearance, the suspicious bathtub drowning of wife number three officially ruled homicide.

Bombshell. Just moments ago, a judge drops -- repeat, drops -- all existing gun charges against the former cop. But a secret grand jury reportedly set to hand down murder charges against Peterson in the death of wife number three. All the while, the former cop making plans to divorce wife number four, insisting she left her own children for another man and that she remains in hiding. Right!

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news. Just moments ago, an Illinois judge totally dismissing felony gun charges against Drew Peterson after Will (ph) County prosecutors refuse to turn over their documents, the judge ruling moments earlier the defense had a right to see the documents, the judge even warning prosecutors if they didn`t turn the documents over, he`d have to drop the charges.

More developments in Drew Peterson. A new law just approved by the Illinois state legislature could be a crucial break in the case for prosecutors in the Drew Peterson investigation, the new provision allowing previously barred hearsay testimony to come into court if the prosecution can prove the defendant is responsible for the witness not being able to testify.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a very powerful tool. No longer can someone terrorize a woman, threaten to kill her, physically abuse her. And if she relates this information to a third party, literally, she can testify from the grave.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the case of Stacy Peterson, a minister alleged Stacy said Drew Peterson was involved in the death of his previous wife. This statement could enter into a possible trial. In the case of Kathleen Savio, she wrote a letter to the prosecutor that said Peterson would take her children away or kill her instead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It may have some small effect that there may be small pieces of evidence, some statements that one of -- Kathy or Stacy made to some friend or family member that may potentially be admissible because of this law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (SINGING): You`ll never know how much I love you...

CARLOS PADILLA: Tragically, we are confident that this child is dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In some of their strongest language yet, a spokesman for the lead agency in the search for Caylee Anthony says any hopes of finding her alive are false hopes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The search for a live child is over?

CARLOS PADILLA: It`s over. It`s over. You know, we did everything we could, you know, a lot of man hours, a lot of resources.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The grand jury has concluded that little Caylee is deceased and their daughter has been indicted in her death.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her grandfather, George Anthony, said law enforcement has given up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you still confident, reaching out to people, asking for donations, given the fact that some in law enforcement are saying, That aspect of the search, in our eyes, is over?

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: Well, it`s unfortunate that law enforcement, the authorities have given up. That`s a shame. It really is.

CINDY ANTHONY: Until I know 100 percent where Caylee is at, I am not going to give up.

So forget about any evidence that has been...

There`s no concrete evidence of anything. There`s only circumstantial evidence. So show me proof.

Show me proof.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB. Am I to understand that the local authorities are now no longer pursuing sightings of Caylee?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Yes, that`s right, Nancy. The biggest thing is, of course, Carlos Padilla from the Orange County`s sheriff`s office saying that they have given up all hope of finding little Caylee Marie Anthony alive whatsoever. They base that, of course, on what the FBI has come up with their evidence, and of course, the grand jury indictment handed up just a couple of months ago -- two months ago.

Also, spokesman Carlos Padilla says there`s really -- they`ve got to move on with their life. They have a record murder rate here in Orange County. They`ve got some unsolved cases to take care of. They have other fish to fry. So they`ve kind of given up any chance of finding Caylee Marie alive.

Also, another bombshell dropped today. Attorney Mark Nejame, the personal attorney for Cindy and George Anthony, says he`s out of here. He`s giving it up. So he`s no longer representing them, and a news conference scheduled for tomorrow has been called off.

GRACE: Take a listen to what Nejame had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK NEJAME, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: If somebody wants to write to somebody or talk to somebody or appear somewhere or to challenge somebody, they all may be valid points but they need to go through your adviser. What`s the sense of having an adviser if you`re not going follow your adviser`s advice? And so I`ve got to respect that. And so somebody needs to get a new adviser or they need to handle their own matter.

If I`m providing service as an adviser and -- it does little good if my advice is not followed. I think any client has got a case should not be doing interviews.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Everybody, we`re taking your calls live. In addition to local authorities, calling off the search for a live Caylee -- that does not mean that volunteers, that Equusearch, that the psychics, that Padilla have gone home. They are still there searching. But local Orange County sheriff saying they are no longer looking for a live Caylee. This as the press conference is called off by the grandparents in which they were to announce blockbuster evidence that little Caylee is still alive. Their lawyer walks off the job.

Let`s unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, prosecutor out of Atlanta, Peter Odom, defense attorney out of Atlanta, and Richard Herman, high- profile lawyer out of New York. What about it, Richard?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, what can I tell you here? Just because Padilla says, they call it off? I don`t know. It`s devastating to the defense...

GRACE: What did you just say? That doesn`t even make sense.

HERMAN: They said he was a spokesperson for the police department? Padilla?

GRACE: No.

HERMAN: How is he a spokesperson?

GRACE: No, no, no, no. A, that`s not what I asked you. And B, Padilla is not a spokesperson for the police department.

HERMAN: Please.

GRACE: OK, so let`s go to someone who can hear and interpret the question. Eleanor?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Well, I think the attorney left because, obviously, George and Cindy weren`t following the advice that he was giving them. And maybe he didn`t want to be involved in this press conference, and clearly, they were going against something he told them. However, remember, Nancy, whatever they`ve told him is attorney-client privilege and he cannot reveal that.

GRACE: I think the confusion, Richard -- you`re talking about Leonard Padilla. There is a Padilla that is the spokesperson for the sheriff`s, Carlos Padilla, all right? It`s not Leonard Padilla. But again...

HERMAN: Thank you.

GRACE: ... that`s not the original question. Peter Odom, the attorney walks off the job with the grandparents. He will not reveal any confidences, of course, but he does say when he was signed on, he was told he could look for Caylee without restriction, even if the outcome was a bad one. Apparently, that`s not what the grandparents want.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. And Nancy, remember, he`s a private attorney. He took on the job of representing them under conditions they apparently -- according to what Nejame said, they violated those conditions by going against his advice, and he has every right to walk off, particularly if his clients are being frustrating. There`s nothing to force him to stay.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Melissa in Indiana. Hi, Melissa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I`m just wondering why they`re searching in that one area and (INAUDIBLE) they got pings from her cell phone from all different places. Why couldn`t she have disposed of her in a dumpster or something like that?

GRACE: You know what? I couldn`t hear your question. Could you repeat the end of the question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pardon me?

GRACE: Could you repeat the end of the question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m wondering if she could have put her in a dumpster instead of where they`re searching where they have been searching and...

GRACE: What about it, Mark Williams? There`s been a lot speculation that she was, in fact, placed in a dumpster.

WILLIAMS: There was a dumpster close to the Amscot location where they found her car a couple of months ago. But thus far, nothing has been coming out of that dumpster, and that garbage has been dumped in the landfill.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: It`s a constant battle between the Anthonys and investigators all hoping to find little Caylee.

CINDY ANTHONY: I`m just going to be putting a call in to my attorney, so I kind of need to know where we need to go from here.

D`ONOFRIO: This is how Cindy and George Anthony spend most of their days, constantly on the phone, checking into tips that their granddaughter, Caylee, may still be alive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

D`ONOFRIO: George talked about his granddaughter in their back yard. It was once a spot where cadaver dogs alerted to the smell of a corpse.

GEORGE ANTHONY: To think about the days she`d go in her little cottage (ph), you know, and she`d ring the little doorbell, Ding-dong.

D`ONOFRIO: That sound rings in his ears, and so does the sound of his family when no one was being chased and heckled.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Major developments in the search for little Caylee. Police come out and say the FBI has confirmed little Caylee is dead, this as grandparents George and Cindy insist she`s alive and that they`ve got evidence to prove it. Then why did they cancel their press conference in which they would reveal that evidence? This as their attorney, a veteran trial lawyer, walks off the case.

We are taking your calls live. Out to Jennifer in Utah. Hi, Jennifer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. We love you. My girls and I and my son, we watch you every single night.

GRACE: And I think I heard one in the background.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Of course, you did. She`s just dying to get on the phone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We love you, Nancy Grace.

GRACE: Hi, love. Thank you for calling in.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Here`s my question. Number one, real quick. Padilla, I love you. I don`t care about your motives. The Anthonys should be kissing the feet of all these people that are out there helping. I just have a real quick question. Has Jose Baez asked for a change of venue? Do you think he will? And if so, when would something like this happen?

GRACE: Oh, that`s a good question. Number one, Padilla, apparently you do, in fact, have a fan club.

Back to the lawyers. Let`s see if they can be succinct this time. Richard Herman, I`m a little surprised that Baez, the defense attorney, has not asked for a speedy trial. After all, they`ve been whining about her being behind bars and she`s going to be proven innocent. And number two, change of venue. Rule number one, ask for a change of venue whether you get it or and not, and in this case, they probably will.

HERMAN: You`re right, Nancy. He should have made a motion for a change of venue.

GRACE: What is he doing?

HERMAN: But here`s the deal. If he makes the motion for a change of venue, he doesn`t get the speedy trial. That period extends. So I don`t know if he`s pushing for the speedy trial, it has to be done by April. If he makes the motion, it`ll be extended even further. But they don`t still have the manner or means of death in this first degree murder case. They`ve got a big problem here. This is not a slam dunk. And the science is junk science, Nancy. This is a very difficult case to prove.

GRACE: Yes, I remember when they used to say that about DNA and fingerprints.

HERMAN: How many air sample cases have you tried, Nancy?

GRACE: Zero.

HERMAN: Exactly.

GRACE: And before the `80s, I had never tried a DNA case, either. But guess what? It`s for real, Richard. Get used to it.

To Eleanor Dixon. What about it?

DIXON: Well, Nancy, first of all, it`s not junk science. This is good science and it`s good evidence.

GRACE: Yes.

DIXON: You know, what can I say about that?

HERMAN: It`s not going to be admissible.

DIXON: I think it`s going to be...

GRACE: OK. Ho-ho-ho-ho-ho-hold on. Hold on. Back to Herman. You know, Herman, I personally trained at Oak Ridge labs, and you`re not going to find a higher-tech laboratory in the country. It is phenomenal, and any judge in his or her right mind are going accept the air sample testing. Now, unless you know differently, instead of just sitting there throwing stones, unless you have a scientific or legal reason that this science is not going to be accepted, then you need to just shut your piehole.

HERMAN: There`s no level of trustworthiness of that test. You can ask Koby. I`ve discussed it with him over and over again.

GRACE: OK. You know what? I will ask Koby. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist joining us, out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice. Koby has been on many, many high-profile cases, and he is a paid consultant in the Anthony defense team.

Now, Koby, I have you on record stating that you deeply respect the Oak Ridge, Tennessee, labs, including the so-called "body farm." This is an FBI report. And I also have you on record stating that you don`t know of any reason to distrust the FBI. You did mention a case several years ago that somewhat tarnished their reputation, in your mind, but that`s all you came up with.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT FOR ANTHONY DEFENSE: Well, I have great respect for the FBI laboratory and I have great respect for the Oak Ridge laboratory. My concern is with the report on the air sampling.

GRACE: Why?

KOBILINSKY: In fact, let me quote right out of page 4 of that report. It says, "Common fluorinated compounds usually associated with human decomposition were not detected in the Florida trunk sample."

GRACE: And what about the next sentence, Koby?

KOBILINSKY: Yes. "It is possible"...

GRACE: Yes! Oh, yes, that next sentence.

KOBILINSKY: Yes, let me finish that. "It is possible"...

GRACE: Yes, let you start that because you weren`t going to mention that, were you.

KOBILINSKY: If you`d like me, let me -- let me read it.

GRACE: I`ll paraphrase it for you. I don`t have to read it.

KOBILINSKY: OK.

GRACE: It says Caylee was likely not old enough to have those chlorocarbons in her system, and therefore, they would not have been released.

KOBILINSKY: Well, they don`t know because they`ve never studied young people. But...

GRACE: And I`d like to refer you, Koby, to page 3, and I`m referring to the last paragraph. Out of 24 compounds...

KOBILINSKY: Right.

GRACE: ... found in mom Casey`s car, out of 24, 16 -- 67 percent of them...

KOBILINSKY: Right.

GRACE: ... are associated with human decomposition, not animal decomposition...

KOBILINSKY: Right.

GRACE: ... not spoiled meat from the grocery store, not a bad pizza, human decomposition.

KOBILINSKY: Well...

GRACE: Koby, respond.

KOBILINSKY: I will respond. Check page 10, where you will read the conclusions of the author of this report. And I will quote, "indicates that a portion of the total odor signature identified in the Florida vehicle trunk is consistent with the decompositional event that could be of human origin."

GRACE: And you said it yourself right there, Koby.

KOBILINSKY: OK.

GRACE: A portion -- a portion -- because 67 percent of the compounds in the trunk, the air compounds, are human decomposition, only human decomposition, nothing else.

KOBILINSKY: This report does not clearly indicate -- this is a preliminary report, don`t forget. I mean, there may be more.

GRACE: Sounds like to me somebody`s doing a little backstroke right about now.

KOBILINSKY: No, no, no. There may be more evidence, but this report does not indicate that this is a human decompositional event. It may be.

GRACE: OK. You know what? Let`s go to another source. What about it, Eleanor Dixon? Weigh in.

DIXON: Well, Nancy, of course, this isn`t junk science, as I already said, and it`s just one piece of the puzzle. There have been many scientific tests done in this car -- the odor of decomposition, the DNA tests on the hair with the death band, as well as -- oh, gosh, I forget the last thing, but there`s many things.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: This is very hard to come in now and...

D`ONOFRIO: But as Cindy showed us around...

CINDY ANTHONY: I just hung up from John Allen.

D`ONOFRIO: ... she and George went back and forth on the phone several times with the Orange County lead detective on the case, John Allen. The Anthonys want the sheriff`s office to help them look for the child alive, but investigators are convinced she`s dead, and the tension between both sides grows every day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You would think someone would want to be, quote, our "white knight" or our hero. If there`s a missing child out there, a missing person, everyone should be wanting to cooperate and just help.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Today the attorney for grandparents George and Cindy Anthony walks off the job, this as the grandparents` press conference to announce the evidence that proves Caylee is alive is called off, and the sheriffs announce they are not looking for a live little girl anymore. When we come back, everyone, we`re going to be joined by Gale St. John, psychic detective who was there searching for little Caylee.

But right now to the lines. Joanne in Florida. Hi, Joanne.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, we love watching you. We watch every night. My question is, as sorry as I feel for George and Cindy, they have evidently fed (ph) this girl, letting her lie and go along with it.

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She couldn`t go to the authorities because she was afraid for the baby. What about going to her parents, who love that baby more than anything?

GRACE: Excellent question. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers." Weigh in.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, I think Joanne`s right, and what she`s point out and what we`ve seen with Mark Nejame today is that Cindy and George have adopted this radical, rigidified belief system that Zenaida Gonzalez took the baby. And the belief system is designed to ward off the fact that their daughter could possibly be a murderer. And now the belief system is extended to investigators and...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cindy told me Orange County detectives admitted to her the evidence they found in the car, the smell, the stain, the decomposition of human remains does not prove Caylee is dead or that Casey is a killer, and they`re angry the sheriff`s office has apparently rushed to judgment by shutting down the search for Caylee.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Elizabeth Smart, the police department there thought that she was dead, but yet they followed up and brought Elizabeth home to Ed Smart.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: (INAUDIBLE) Emotions just take over sometimes. You believe your child. You put faith in and everything, you know? I wouldn`t wish this for anyone.

This is a tough day for us. Think about wanting to turn your own child in for whatever it might be, it`s hard. It`s quiet, the house is just too quiet. Just tears me apart.

Whenever these sightings come through and photos on are taken of a child that could possibly be my granddaughter I get excited, my hopes are out there. And if it`s not, they get to play a little bit.

My focus is always on my granddaughter, it always will be. I love my daughter. I love my wife, I love my son.

I would give my life right this second to have her be dropped off in front of all of us. I would do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Do you blame them? Listen to her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

C. ANTHONY: Finish your song.

CAYLEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S DAUGHTER: Are you tired, papa?

C. ANTHONY: Are you tired, Papa?

G. ANTHONY: I`m tired.

C. ANTHONY: I didn`t know you had (INAUDIBLE).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Do you blame the Anthonys for believing? For wanting to believe that she`s alive?

To Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG, what more can you tell us after your exclusive tour of the Anthony home and all the time you spent with them.

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WKMG: Well, one of the things that I asked them out in the backyard was where is Lee? We haven`t seen him in quite some time. He was a fixture in this case from day one. He was out here very close, standing right by his parents, standing right by Casey every day, and the answer that I got from George and Cindy conflicted a little bit.

George said that he is right now trying to make a living. He lost two months` worth of income, just dedicating his time to this case. Now Cindy kind of interrupted him and said oh, he`s traveling right now. He`s traveling and George seemed to indicate that Lee is somewhere working here in downtown Orlando.

So it`s a little unclear, but there are some rumblings that something else might be up -- is a reason for his absence.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, what do you know about that?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, SEARCHING FOR CAYLEE: I don`t know anything about it. Haven`t seen or heard from Lee since we were there back in August and have not discussed it with either Cindy or George since then, so I have no knowledge of anything.

GRACE: But when you were there, Lee was a staunch supporter of mom Casey.

PADILLA: He was -- he was definitely behind her all the way to the point where several times he just out and lied to us, but we didn`t call him on it, we just kind of let it slide to see what the purpose of the lies were, and subsequently amongst ourselves we decided that he would do anything to defend his sister.

He just wasn`t going to give up any information that would help law enforcement regarding her.

GRACE: Out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, the presser, the grandparents had promised in which they would reveal the evidence that proves Caylee is alive called off abruptly, what happened?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: They basically said in light of recent developments and things that have happened that it was unnecessary to have the press conference. You know that press conference was supposed to be where they unveiled the tips and new information that proved that Caylee was alive.

They also backed off that. They said that there was no hard evidence that Caylee was definitely alive, but they wanted to get, you know, people together to let them know why they were still looking for Caylee, but again, that has been called off.

GRACE: Joining me right now the president and founder of Texas EquuSearch. He has team members still searching for Caylee. You all know Tim Miller.

Tim, thank you for being with us tonight. Tim, the sheriff`s office has announced they are no longer looking for a live Caylee and they are not following up on sightings of her, alleged sightings of her.

How does that jive with your search?

TIM MILLER, PRESIDENT, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH, TEAM MEMBERS SEARCHING FOR CAYLEE: Well, you know, I -- met with the Anthonys and we agreed to disagree, and I said I would not support their efforts in searching for a live Caylee, but I would respect their efforts and I -- I personally today feel as though Caylee will probably never be found alive or dead and the chances are very, very, very small, Nancy, that she`ll be found dead, but it`s better dead than alive.

I mean, it`s just been a huge strain on that family, a huge strain on that community, and you know, I think it`s time to sit back and, you know, let the prosecutors do what they`re doing. We`re going to continue doing small searches on the weekend. We cannot put huge efforts in it anymore.

GRACE: Right. Because you guys have been there so much and have conducted such extensive searches. One searcher is still there amongst the others, Gale St. John, psychic detective and host of "The Body Hunter." She is still actively searching for little Caylee.

Gale, you are there in Orlando right now. Tell me what your group is doing.

GALE ST. JOHN, PSYCHIC DETECTIVE, SEARCHING FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: We`re searching some very specific areas right now. We happen to be in the northern half of the Orange County area.

GRACE: Gale, when you and your team members have had visions or vibrations about where Caylee may be, is it ever a live Caylee?

ST. JOHN: You know I`d like to say it is, but it`s not been, at least not for me which is disappointing. I have grandchildren and it breaks my heart.

GRACE: With me Gale St. John, psychic detective, and host of "The Body Hunter," still there searching for little Caylee. You told me where you`ve been searching most recently. Why that area? What led you there?

ST. JOHN: Well, we`ve had some tips in that area as well and some of the things that we`re finding right now are very similar to some of the visions that we`ve had and so we are now.

GRACE: Really?

ST. JOHN: . checking out some of those areas.

GRACE: Such as?

ST. JOHN: Well, it is in the area where there is water and trees and a specific type of flowers that we`ve been looking for which is important. We are not ready to disclose the location at this time because we -- today we are only about 50 percent of the area was cleared. So we`re going continue tomorrow to finish this area. It`s a vast area.

GRACE: To Tom Shamshak, former police chief and current private investigator joining us out of Boston, Tom, it`s great to see you. You know, Tom, a lot of people don`t believe in psychics, but -- and I`m a naysayer myself, but there have been cases where they have found bodies, they have found people alive that were missing.

TOM SHAMSHAK, FMR. POLICE CHIEF PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Absolutely correct, Nancy. Good evening. I certainly believe in the use of thinking outside the box and involving people like psychics. Don`t leave any stone unturned and they may generate something, but this really is a very difficult chore that is ahead of law enforcement.

GRACE: It is. You know, Tom Shamshak, at this point -- Tom Shamshak, private investigator out of Boston. At this point of the search anything goes, anybody and everybody, all hands on deck.

And back to Lawrence Kobilinsky. Dr. Kobilinsky, what about clothing? If the little girl`s clothing were found this much later what would you expect to find?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Well, I mean, there might be some important evidence in or on the clothing. First of all, how do we know.

GRACE: How would the clothing be degenerated?

KOBILINSKY: Well, it could very well be being exposed to the environment and, you know, it`s been many months since the child was reported missing. It could be shredded. Animals could have ripped the clothing apart if it`s an outdoor situation.

You may lose a lot of information, but there may be DNA on the garment that would tie it to a particular person. That`s a possibility.

GRACE: Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky joining us from John Jay College of Criminal Justice.

Very quickly, case alert. The search of a suspect in the murder of a beautiful little 9-year-old girl in Chicago. Take a look.

Mya Lyons stabbed to death July 18th in an alleyway yards from her home. A person of interest questioned and released. A knife discovered at the scene. Police say the location leads them to believe someone did see what happened. There is a $6,000 reward.

Look at this little girl. If you have information please call Chicago police 312-747-8271.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Peterson, off the hook on gun charges tonight. Just moments ago an Illinois judge totally dismissing felony gun charges against Drew Peterson.

A new state law was overwhelming approved by the Illinois House allowing so-called hearsay evidence from witnesses who may have been murdered by a defendant trying to stop them from testifying.

This means prosecutors have a new weapon in the investigation into Drew Peterson who has been named a suspect in the disappearance of his fourth wife Stacy. A minister has said Stacy told him Drew Peterson had killed his third wife Kathleen Savio whose death is now being called a homicide by authorities.

State`s attorney Glasgow(ph) says the new law is very powerful and was passed with the intention of helping women who had been abused.

JOEL BRODSKY, ATTORNEY FOR DREW PETERSON: Obviously, we`re very pleased. We believe that, you know, the only real reason that the state would have not wanted to turn over the documents is because they would have helped us, otherwise, if they would have been of no help they would have gladly turned them over and we believe the judge assessed the proper sanction which is dismissal and the case, we`re confident that if the state chooses to appeal will be upheld and this case will be over with.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: News flash, it`s not going to be upheld. The judge, Judge Richard Schoenstedt had a little hair fit in court today because the prosecution would not do what he told them to, but the prosecutors don`t work for the judge any more than the defense does.

So when the prosecutor is told by the judge hand over your whole file, your work product, everything, all your direct examination questions you`ve prepared, your scientific arguments, the outline of your opening statement, hand it over right now and the prosecution says no and what did the judge do? He dropped all the charges against Drew Peterson.

Now, that`s a fine kettle of fish, Judge Richard Schoenstedt.

Out to the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Peter Odom, Richard Herman, I`m coming right back to you, but first to Joe Hosey with the "Herald News," author of "Fatal Vows" in court today.

Joe, what happened?

JOE HOSEY, REPORTER, HERALD NEWS, IN COURT TODAY: Like you said, Nancy, the judge dropped the charges. He ordered the prosecutors to turn over internal documents, memoranda and the like so that they could establish whether or not this is a vindictive prosecution and the Assistant State Attorney John Conner refused to do so.

He risked going to jail himself for doing that. He could have been held in contempt and the judge decided to dismiss the case.

GRACE: You know what? I hope my path crosses with John Conner some day. I want to shake his hand.

To you, Eleanor Dixon, current felony prosecutor in Atlanta, that is complete BS, you cannot force the state to hand over their work product. When I say work product, I`m talking about your legal research. Everything you`ve done on the case, your interview notes with your witnesses.

The defense doesn`t have a right to that any more than the state has a right to the defense notes. What the answer should have been, Eleanor, in my mind, correct me if you think differently, is for Judge Richard Schoenstedt to get off his bench and review the file himself.

See if there`s evidence to support a genuine prosecution or if this is selective prosecution of Drew Peterson. Right or wrong?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: You`re exactly right, Nancy. They can take it in chambers, look at it, do what`s called an (INAUDIBLE) inspection. And you know what, I bet he didn`t ask the defense attorney to turn over his work product.

GRACE: You know this is a blow to the state, but from my understanding, to Derek Armstrong, author of "Drew Peterson Exposed," hours of interviews with Peterson. Derek, I understand that the grand jury is about to hand down a murder charge on wife number three, Kathleen Savio, who drowned in a dry bathtub covered in bruises.

I guess you saw that autopsy report.

DEREK ARMSTRONG, AUTHOR OF "DREW PETERSON EXPOSED": Yes, I believe they are. I have an inside source whose indicated to me that if charges weren`t filed today or the indictment didn`t come down today they would imminently be coming down.

GRACE: Richard Herman, try to take off your defense hat just for a moment. You know a judge cannot order the state to hand over its entire file to the defense or vice versa.

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, there is open file discovery, Nancy, and they were claiming.

GRACE: Not in that jurisdiction.

HERMAN: They were claiming a vindictive prosecution.

GRACE: There`s not open file in that jurisdiction, OK? Number one, so let`s get off that incorrect premise, but go ahead.

HERMAN: The issue is whether or not it was a vindictive prosecution.

GRACE: Right.

HERMAN: . against Peterson which it absolutely was and as a result of that, the judge made a direction which the district attorney chose to not comply with. That`s OK. He`s not going appeal the case. It`s not.

GRACE: Yes, they are.

HERMAN: It`s not dismissed with prejudiced. They can bring it back.

GRACE: They are appealing it. They are taking it up.

HERMAN: When they indict him for murder they`re going to add this in, too, and then they`ll turn over their documents down the road.

GRACE: Peter Odom?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The prosecution doesn`t work for the judge, Nancy, but the prosecution should be working for the people. This judge realized that the prosecution was doing something unfair to the people.

GRACE: Which was?

ODOM: Vindictively prosecuting Drew Peterson for this trial.

GRACE: I want to see Odom`s face.

ODOM: And such.

GRACE: Odom, do you really believe that?

ODOM: Yes, I do, and the judge had every right.

GRACE: Why? Why is it vindictive?

ODOM: . to ask for that file. And nothing shows that more clearly, Nancy, than the fact that they wouldn`t turn over the file.

GRACE: Peter, when you were prosecuting, did you give open file to the defense?

ODOM: If the judge asked me to turn something over, Nancy, even if I didn`t like it.

GRACE: Typically would you? Would you?

ODOM: If the judge told me to turn something over, I would.

GRACE: No, SOP, standard operating procedure, unless you had a judge`s order, would you give open file, all your work product?

ODOM: Not only would I give open file work -- not work , not work product because that`s privileged, but open file discovery, yes, and I`d invite the defense attorney into my office to make.

GRACE: You just said if a judge told you to. How about when a judge didn`t tell you to?

ODOM: My notes, Nancy. No, no attorney would turn over notes in work product. However if a judge told me to do so I would have to even if I didn`t like it and the fact that they didn`t turn them over is suspect.

GRACE: With a judge -- you listen to every nut job judge down there on the Fulton County bench?

ODOM: That`s why they make.

GRACE: You think they know the law better than you? They`re appointed by the governor, all right? Just like every other jurisdiction and then maybe run for re-election some day.

Uh-uh, it`s on you to know the law and give it to the judge, not let some nut job tell you what the law is. Uh-uh.

Hold on. We`ll pick this back up.

Candace Aikin is Stacy Peterson`s aunt. Miss Aikin, thank you for being with us. What do you make of Peterson`s decision to divorce Stacy Peterson?

CANDACE AIKIN, STACY PETERSON`S AUNT: I think it`s kind of late for that. She wanted one like 13 months ago. So it`s kind of late for that now. I don`t think -- I don`t think she`s around to be able to divorce him.

GRACE: Why do you think he`s seeking a divorce at this juncture?

AIKIN: I`m really not sure what he`s thinking. Maybe -- I just -- I don`t know.

GRACE: To Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author, what do you make of it?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": I think Drew Peterson, always in his own mind, thinks he comes off looking like the good guy.

So if he paints a picture to the public that his wife took off with another man, what is he going to do, ringing his hands, all he can do is file for divorce. It makes him look fantastic in a really miserable situation.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ARMSTRONG: Do you think the story of this divorce might encourage Stacy to contact you?

DREW PETERSON, HUSBAND OF MISSING MOM STACY PETERSON: I have nothing more to say.

ARMSTRONG: What about the rumors that the state`s attorney is getting ready to indict for homicide on one of your wives?

PETERSON: I told you. Nothing to say.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: . as far as a bill helping allow into court stories that Stacey told her minister that Peterson killed his third wife, Brodsky says the bill wouldn`t apply to that either.

BRODSKY: Well, that wouldn`t be hearsay, that would be double hearsay. That would be Drew that told Stacy told the pastor who told us. That`s double hearsay. Just, still doesn`t covered by the hearsay.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Hearsay is hearsay, Mr. Brodsky. Check out the law.

To Joe Hosey in court today with the "Herald News," is it true that when Judge Richard Schoenstedt dropped, the gun charges that Drew Peterson kissed his lawyer on the cheek and said I`m going to Disney Land?

HOSEY: He kissed them both. He kissed both Joel Brodsky and (INAUDIBLE).

GRACE: And?

HOSEY: Yes, it is true. And he had also said -- you know, he said I love these guys. Before that, he said I`m going to Disney Land. I think he had that all planned out. I think he probably knew how this was going to go.

GRACE: I`m sure Disney Land is so proud of that endorsement.

Out to the lines, Mercedes in Michigan. Hi, Mercedes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: Hi.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thanks for taking my call. I love your twins. We need more picture.

GRACE: Oh you`ll get them. I`ll get them for you online. What`s your question, love?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh good. I`ve been watching the Drew Peterson thing for a long time and I never miss your show. I don`t even go shopping anymore at night. I just come home to see your show.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And yes. And all with Caylee and everything, too, and with Drew Peterson, though, who in their right mind would believe him, saying that she would run off and leave the kids behind? Because even in a custody fight, the kids -- she would come back and kidnap them. She loved those kids so much.

GRACE: Bethany Marshall, do you think anybody would really believe that?

MARSHALL: No, and when you really understand the pattern of domestic abuse that leads to domestic homicide, the man is always belittling the woman, belittling her motherhood, her personhood, every aspect of her character.

GRACE: So I guess that`s therapy talk for no, nobody is going to believe it.

Thank you, Dr. Bethany.

Let`s stop, everyone, and remember Army Sergeant John Kyle Dagget, 21, Phoenix, Arizona, killed Iraq. On a first tour, awarded the Bronze Star and Purple Heart, Army Service ribbon. Loved football, outdoors, hunting, fishing, camping rafting, volunteering at nursing homes.

Leaves behind parents Jack and Colleen, three sisters.

John Kyle Daggett, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END


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« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2008, 07:54:29 AM »

NANCY GRACE

New Anthony Grandparents Interrogation Videotapes Released

Aired November 21, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl named Caylee, little Caylee missing for 22 long weeks now.
Major bombshells tonight. Hours of FBI interviews of grandparents George and Cindy Anthony just released. Tonight, we will show you the new videotapes, and you will be shocked by what Cindy and George tell the FBI. The grandparents wrestle with theories about what they believe happened to Caylee.

Plus, they weigh in on tot mom Casey`s web of lies, the so-called nanny she claims kidnapped Caylee, her secret wild lifestyle, and the horrible scent of death in mom Casey`s car. We even learn little Caylee herself never mentioned a Zanny. And perhaps the most upsetting bombshell, not only did mom Casey steal money from her parents, she also robbed little Caylee`s piggy bank and raided the baby`s college fund.

Tonight, even after police announce they no longer are looking for Caylee because they think she`s dead, there has been yet another alleged sighting of the little girl in Orlando. The defense reveals they will call some famous forensic experts to the stand, officially releasing their witness list. But the big question still remains, where, oh, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: After we pay for everything, the gentleman comes out. I can`t remember what his name is. We watch (ph) a particular gate where this public lot`s at. I got within three feet of my daughter`s car and -- the worst odor that you could possibly smell in this world. And I`ve smelled that odor before. It smelled like a decomposed body. I`m being very straight with you guys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I got a sick feeling for a second because the car was all closed up, and if you`re from me to you away from it, you can smell an odor, you don`t forget that odor, no matter what it is. You never, ever forget it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you know this because?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Being a deputy sheriff for all the years I was, I have investigative...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You had exposure to decomposing bodies?

GEORGE ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) So anyhow, as I went around the driver`s side, the guy was almost as close to you and I, walking right behind me. And as I opened up the door, that smell took my breath away. I mean, it was that strong. I reached over to the passenger door and pulled clear (ph) from that (INAUDIBLE) open the passenger door (INAUDIBLE) let this thing vent. And it was that overpowering.

The stain that was in the trunk of my daughter`s car -- (INAUDIBLE) got it home, and I mean, I opened up the trunk. We had the windows rolled down, the sun roof open. Instantaneously, that gets in your house just like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Tonight, bombshells in the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee Anthony.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: As I opened up the trunk, I was glad because there was -- my daughter and my granddaughter weren`t there. I`m thankful for that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

GEORGE ANTHONY: But there was a trash bag. I don`t know what size gallon. It was a kitchen-type trash bag. It was white in color, almost semi -- it was almost transparent. Inside of it, I could see a pizza box. I couldn`t make it out what pizza it was. But there was pizza full of maggots and all kinds of stuff, an odor that was very, very, very strong. The guy reached inside, This is where your smell is coming from, and took it real quick and dumped -- dropped it in a dumpster which was probably 20 or 30 feet away (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you convinced -- based on what you know as a law enforcement officer in your background, are you convinced in any way that the maggots were solely caused by the pizza, or did you think that there`s a distinct odor that you recognized that day that was in the car?

And you don`t have to answer it, if you don`t want to. But I`m just - - I`m putting it out there based on what I know, and I`m asking you your opinion.

GEORGE ANTHONY: That distinct odor is something you never forget. That distinct odor, I -- I believe something was placed in the back of that trunk, and I don`t want to believe it was my granddaughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understand.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I don`t want to believe that it`s any other kind of - - any other thing but that pizza. That`s all I`m trying to believe (INAUDIBLE) but deep inside my heart, it was not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was not your granddaughter?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, let`s put it this way. I`m hoping it`s not. I want to believe it`s not. I mean, I`m trying to believe it`s not. But then again, like I said, and you guys know, once you smell that smell, you just -- you never get over it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Fast-breaking developments tonight in the Caylee Anthony investigation. For the very latest, let`s go straight out to Mark Williams, news director with WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, what is the very latest?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Jane, some breaking news, as we`ve stated, that there`s -- the state attorney`s office today releasing crucial FBI video of interviews with George and Cindy Anthony which took place right after Casey was arrested, their daughter, Casey. Those interviews, two different people, really, George Anthony saying that he just can`t put the pieces together. He`s dumbfounded by anything. Cindy Anthony, the mother, trying to defend Casey any way that she could, trying to put the pieces together.

One other thing, Jane, the lowest of the low. In some parts of the country, they would say lower than a snake`s belly. The deal is, Casey Anthony, we have found out, stole from her daughter`s piggy bank, Caylee Anthony`s piggy bank. She had a coin collection there. Also, apparently, Casey got on line and stole money from a college fund that was set up for Caylee by her grandfather, George. There was $400 in there, now there`s only 5 bucks.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That is absolutely stomach-churning that a mother, any mother, would steal from her own daughter`s piggy bank. Boy, does that speak volumes, doesn`t it. Now, there`s so much tape we want to get to. There`s new information in this tape. We want you to hear it for yourself. Let`s start with George talking about that smell.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: I don`t know why I stuck the key in the ignition. I started to turn it, and I`m, like, No, George, you can`t do this. You`re doing this wrong. I looked in the back seat a little bit more. I didn`t see anything. I looked around as quick as I could. I scanned. I`m looking for everything.

And I told the guy, I said, Can you walk around with me to the rear of the car? He says, Why? And I said, Man, there is a smell in this car, and I`ve just got to know where it`s coming from. And as I walked around the back of that car, before I stuck the key in it, I did whisper to myself, I hope it`s not my daughter or my granddaughter. I felt that in my heart. I felt that. I`m, like, Please don`t let it be either one of them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, what`s fascinating about this, Tad DiBiase -- who`s a former prosecutor who specializes in prosecuting "no body" homicides -- is that this grandfather is saying, basically, That smell, I was a cop for years, I know that smell. But later, he`s, like, That`s not my granddaughter in that car, that smell wasn`t my granddaughter. So he`s telling different stories to different people. Would you say this is the more honest George, the more straightforward George talking to the FBI?

TAD DIBIASE, FORMER PROSECUTOR: I think so, Jane. I mean, I have to say, I share the opinion that once you smell a decomposing body, you do never forget the smell. And I think we see throughout this tape George speaking very honestly. He`s not filtering his thoughts as to how it`s going to affect the investigation into his daughter, but he gives his honest thoughts. And I think they`re quite telling. A lot of the things he says on this tape are, frankly, going to be very difficult and damning against Casey.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, well, we have to, as we look at these tapes, imagine -- the trial is supposedly coming up January 5. We`ll see if it ever happens on that date. That`s doubtful. But these tapes will undoubtedly be played in some way, shape or form in that trial. So as you watch them, think about how it`s going to be used by the prosecution and the defense.

Now we`re going to talk -- listen to George talking about the stain in the trunk. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you saw a stain in the trunk?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes. Probably about the size of a basketball, maybe. Just a little bit -- not completely circular. It had some...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was not a circle.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Right.

(CROSSTALK)

GEORGE ANTHONY: To draw a particular design on it, that I couldn`t do. But I can tell you, I did stick my nose as close as I could get to it, and man, it`s a very strong odor. It`s right where the spare tire is at, the spare tire cover.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it where the pizza was sitting? It was not where the pizza was sitting.

GEORGE ANTHONY: It was more in the center of the trunk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, Dr. David Posey, medical examiner and forensic pathologist, he`s talking about the stain in the trunk, which was approximately the size of a basketball, not totally circular, but somewhat. And it has this liquid that produced a strong odor. What are we talking about there, and why was there no DNA found in that?

DR. DAVID POSEY, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, in order to have DNA, you have to have cellular material, and the liquid could be just purged from the body or whatever the decomposing object is. And they`re looking for the cellular evidence. That`s why they`ve taken the car in and they`ve basically taken it apart. You have to have some cellular matter, then you can find some -- hopefully, find some DNA, provided it`s not degraded.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Just to translate that into people speak, what I understand is that sometimes a body, when it`s dead, will exude something called cadavering fluid, which does not create -- does not contain DNA, is that correct?

POSEY: That`s correct. It`s just purge. It`s water, maybe some, you know, like, salt materials that has no...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But can`t you tell it`s a human being?

POSEY: Not from that by itself, no. The smell gives you a pretty good idea, but that`s where the cadaver dogs come in and then they`re very helpful. They can differentiate between human and non-human. But a lot of times, you may smell a dead cat or a dead rat or a coon or something, it`ll have a similar smell, but believe me, the body smell is even different from that of an animal.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you just heard George, who was a cop for many years, talking about that smell. And it`s absolutely fascinating to me that we have all these pieces of forensics lining up, but they`re all kind of slivers. None of them is an outright DNA match with this missing child.

Now, what`s also absolutely shocking is this whole notion that tot mom Casey raided her child`s piggy bank. Listen to what George has to say about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: As far as other moneys that my daughter was taking, she took a small quarter coin collection that I had. And I know she has been taking money from my granddaughter`s bank because I`m always dropping a buck, 5 bucks, quarters. You know, one day you go in there and that bank is heavy. And it`s a good-size piggy bank. And you know you put money in there. You know it. There`s nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I -- it just boggles my mind. You know, a kid`s piggy bank -- Casey is taking money, quarters, out of the kid`s piggy bank. It really blows my mind.

Lillian Glass -- we`ve got to bring the shrink in to analyze that behavior. You`re a psychologist and body language expert. What do you make of a mom taking money out of her own child`s piggy bank?

LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it shows, Jane, how selfish she is and how heartless she is to take money from a -- her own child, her own baby? Unacceptable.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: As I looked around the car, first I thing I looked around was to make sure all the tires were on. And I took a quick glance inside before I even opened it up, see if there was anything there I could see. I could see my granddaughter`s carseat in the back, in the passenger side rear. I could see my daughter`s purse, clothes. And it was in disarray.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Purse, you mean like her regular purse?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Her regular purse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was her driver`s license and stuff in it, do you recall?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So wherever she was, she was without any ID, to your knowledge.

GEORGE ANTHONY: There was no -- yes, she didn`t have this kind of stuff.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that had to be at least from the 30th because that`s when they originally towed it.

GEORGE ANTHONY: That`s right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this was the 15th. So for two weeks, she`d been out and about with no ID, no nothing.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As far as you knew.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Bombshells tonight as we bring you just-released videotape of grandparents George and Cindy Anthony talking to the FBI about their granddaughter, Caylee`s, disappearance. We`re going to get to some more tape in just a moment.

But the phone lines are going crazy over this latest development. Monica in Georgia, what`s your thought or question, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I was wondering -- Leonard Padilla had mentioned the other night that Casey had said that nobody had found her clothes yet. And when she stole the gas cans out of her parents` shed, has anybody thought that maybe she burned Caylee`s clothes or anything?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, that is excellent! Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, your associate spent time with Casey, and allegedly, Casey said something to that associate that on its face is very incriminating. Tell us about it.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: That`s correct. She said, They haven`t even found her clothes yet. That -- if you think all of the things through in detail from the 24th, when her dad almost found the trunk -- what was in the trunk, and the 25th, when we believe she took the body and put it in Blanchard Park, we believe she by that time she had it in a bag, she ripped the bag, that`s the stain in the car, and also got it on herself while she was walking down to the waterfront. There was no burning of the child. It was in the water, is where she placed her. There`s no doubt about it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but this caller said burning of the clothes.

PADILLA: No. I don`t think so. I think what she did is, she threw the clothes somewhere just to get rid of them because on the 18th is when she had taken the clothes off the child and put the child in the pool to make it look like a drowning. She didn`t have the clothes on after that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, this is -- yes, these are your theories. And of course...

PADILLA: Correct. They`re theories.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... the timeline is very hard to figure out. All we know is that George last saw her on June 16. And then there was this frantic 911 call that Cindy made about -- well, it was a long time after that. I mean, there was a huge gap of about a month between the time that Caylee was last seen and when Cindy finally says, Enough, I`m going to call cops. I`ve got to find out where my daughter is.

Let`s listen to Cindy talking to the FBI about that moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m just throwing it out there because that`s what she`s asking us to believe.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: Well, I`m normally a very rational, you know, person that would think things through before I would speak...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

CINDY ANTHONY: ... OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s very evident.

CINDY ANTHONY: Now, it`s very obvious that on those 911 calls, I was scared (DELETED) because I didn`t know what was going on and I did and said whatever I need to do to get help.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But when you did...

CINDY ANTHONY: So if she`s saying anything...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... made sense.

CINDY ANTHONY: But we don`t...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what she`s doing doesn`t make sense.

CINDY ANTHONY: It doesn`t make sense, but it would if we find Caylee. If we find Caylee and she`s with this person, then isn`t going to make sense that she was trying to...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If she was giving us clues that would actually lead us to this person, but all the clues that she`s given have led us away from the situation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think we should bring in all the lawyers at this time because what I`m hearing there -- and I`d like to get, certainly, the defense attorneys weighing in -- is a mom who is really frantically trying to come up with an explanation that isn`t the bad explanation that she doesn`t want to believe. It`s almost, Dan Horowitz, like she`s not only enabling but sort of co-dependent on her daughter. And because it`s her daughter, she can`t imagine what is the horrible truth.

DAN HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, Jane, you`ve really set forth the best defense theory in this case. Even though it`s a no-body case, I think we all know and understand that Caylee is dead, even though we don`t want her to be, and that her mother had something to do with it.

But this dysfunctional grandmother, this clueless family that goes back and forth, theory to theory, they`re all trying to cover something up. And that`s the mental state defense. A dysfunctional family, a mother who would never normally kill a child, even if she does take money from the piggy bank, that`s where the defense should be going. And I hope that`s where the defense does go in January, when trial starts.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I`m sort of confused here. Penny Douglas Furr, that wouldn`t seem to me to be a defense. I would think that would be the prosecution argument, that essentially, this is a mom trying to avoid what the reality is about what her daughter did.

PENNY DOUGLAS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think the grandmother has no clue what happened and she doesn`t want to believe that her daughter is involved. So she`s looking for any other reasonable alternative.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, listen, we have more of this shocking tape, and a lot of it is really about suspicious behavior by Casey and her parents` reaction or description of that. Listen to a very suspicious incident involving gas cans.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: I said, You know, Casey -- I said, yes, I said, the cans are out (ph). So I said, yes, the cans are gone. So me, I`m trying to play the father and grandfather, but I`m also trying to be this old detective guy again. I said, Hey, look, I said, in the trunk of your car is one of these metal wedges, you jack up a car and you put a wedge underneath the tire so the car doesn`t roll back. Oh, yes, Dad, I know where it`s at, I`ll get it out for you.

I said, No, that`s OK, I got an extra key for the car. I`ll just go back and get it. No, Dad, I`ll get it for you. I mean, it`s safe (ph) little back-and-forth type thing. As I`m getting ready to go out through my garage -- we have an inner garage door, you know, to...

(CROSSTALK)

GEORGE ANTHONY: As I`m getting ready to go out the door, my daughter just blows past me, says, Dad, I`ll get it. And I said, Casey, I`m capable of getting it out. I know where it`s at, you know, trying to be -- as I`m still walking out through the garage with my daughter down the driveway, she says, Dad, I`ll get it. She keeps on pushing her hand back, like, Don`t come close, you know, type deal.

Finally, I get back to the back of the car, and I said, Casey, she opens up the trunk and she says, Here`s your -- starts with an F and ends with an N. I`m not going to say what the word is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I am actually calculating when this is happening. According to what we were seeing there, that -- he`s describing something that happened on June 24. This is right in that intermediary time before Cindy calls 911 and reports to police, Hey, something`s gone wrong, this car smells like a dead body.

I mean, why would Casey not let her dad in the car, if she had nothing to hide? And I direct that to Vince Velazquez.

VINCE VELAZQUEZ, HOMICIDE DETECTIVE, ATLANTA METRO AREA: I mean, it`s obvious that George is torn between a career law enforcement guy and a father. His gut feeling told him that there`s something in that trunk, and she didn`t want him to go in there because she knew what was in there. And it was the smell of death.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was it like between Casey and Cindy?

GEORGE ANTHONY: I think it was a very loving relationship. I mean, I`m sure they had their moments. It could have been a temperament issue or something like that. But I don`t think it was anything that was ever...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Overly contentious?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Contentious, right. I don`t think it ever was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace, as we dissect brand-new shocking FBI tapes of George and Cindy Anthony talking to the FBI. And this tape is coming in as we speak. We`ve been cutting it and bringing it to you almost raw.

The phone lines lighting up. Margaret in Missouri, your thought or question, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hi.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, we know that Cindy had access to Amy`s car because that`s where she got the checks from. Was she driving Amy`s car and maybe left Caylee decomposing in the back of her car for a time period?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, interesting. Drew Petrimoulx, reporter WDBO radio, your thoughts on that.

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, she was driving Amy`s car while Amy was on a vacation. But you know, I`m sure that investigators have looked in the back of that car, and if there was any signs of a decomposing body, that would be, you know, a huge part of this case and that would be something that we would obviously know about at this point.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I don`t know why I stuck the key in the ignition, I started to turn it, and I`m like, no, George, you can`t do this. You`re doing this wrong.

I looked in the back seat, before I didn`t see anything. I look around and scan, and now I`m looking for everything. And I told the guy, I said, can you walk around with me to the rear of the car, and he said why. And I said, man, there is a smell in this car and I want to know where it`s coming from.

And as I walk around the back of the car, before I stuck the key in it, I did whisper to myself, I hope it`s not my daughter or my granddaughter. I felt that in my heart. I felt that. I`m, like, please don`t let it be either one of them.

The person who is in the back of my granddaughter`s car is not my granddaughter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace.

Bombshells tonight, as we show you new videotape just released of missing Caylee`s grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony, talk to the FBI. Their shocking comments.

Meantime, more bombshells, word that famous scientist Dr. Henry Lee is set to appear as a defense witness for Casey Anthony during her trial for the murder of her missing tot.

You remember Dr. Lee, right? He`s worked on the most famous cases of our time. O.J. Simpson, JonBenet Ramsey, Scott Peterson, Phil Spector. So does Dr. Lee`s involvement with this case -- let`s bring in the entire legal panel we have.

Does Dr. Lee`s involvement with this case mean Casey Anthony`s murder trial will become another one of those trials of the centuries?

Let`s start with Dan Horowitz on that one. We both covered a big case together, the Michael Jackson case. You know how crazy those big cases get.

DAN HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jane, I still remember you walking around with so many files of papers there. You worked harder than almost everybody there.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Don`t remind me. Thank you.

HOROWITZ: But, you know, this will be a mega case. And I think, ultimately, it`s going to end in a conviction for murder when it shouldn`t because when you fight the fact that the child is dead, and when you argue that the mother had nothing to do with it, when it`s so clear she did, all you`re doing is setting the jury up to say, OK, the heck with you.

We think you did it, and it must have been on purpose, or you would have told us about the accident or the outburst of anger. You would have given us the real reason why it happened. So it`s going to be a mega case, but it should really be maybe even a plea bargain.

I`m really sorry that it`s getting this much media attention.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Penny Douglass Furr, defense attorney, when I think of big cases, I always go back to O.J., who started so many trends. And I think of the dream team saying garbage in, garbage out and also blaming the police and charging police misconduct.

And I -- I kind of think that`s going to happen in this case, because the forensics are not iron clad. You`re talking about air samples. So how easy is it to argue garbage in, garbage out with air samples, right?

PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This is exactly what they will argue, because we have great scientists for the defense. The only evidence the state has is the scientific evidence. I don`t know of another case that has been prosecuted and found guilty on an air sample.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now.

DOUGLASS FURR: This would be the first.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tad Dibaise, former prosecutor, you specialize in prosecuting no-body homicide cases. Here is a fascinating tidbit. One of the defense attorneys has asked the judge for access to internal records from the Orange County Sheriff`s Office to track down leaks.

But I`m wondering, are they on the road to that police misconduct type of trial that we all know so well?

TAD DIBAISE, FMR. PROSECUTOR, SPECIALIZES IN PROSECUTING "NO BODY" HOMICIDE CASES: I mean that`s always a possibility. In any case, it`s always a wise defense to try and attack the police work.

The problem is, in the no-body case, the way you build a no-body case is by piling on evidence upon top of evidence, and in this case, even small, seemingly insignificant pieces of evidence, when you pile them together, between the forensic evidence, how strong or weak it may be, her statement, her actions and the fact that the jury is going to look at her and say you`re the mother of a 2-year-old, now 3-year-old, where is she?

That to me is one of the most powerful pieces of evidence in this no-body case, because often in a no-body case the victim is an adult and has walked away or has left, is what the defense argues.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And she`s told many bizarre stories about what possibly happened, all involving a Zani, short for Zenaida, a person that most people believe does not exist.

Now this is going to be a long trial, because guess what? Just these tapes that we`re analyzing, hours and hours and hours, and we`re cutting this tape and bringing it to you as fast as we can.

Let`s listen to George talking about Casey`s bad-girl photos.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: I even have some things that I can share with you guys that I shared with law enforcement. But they took me aside before the date of the 9/11 tapes were released and they told me that somewhere in the neighborhood of 1200 photos of my daughter, I guess, are out there somewhere that she`s in some -- in -- she`s done some bad things, so.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

G. ANTHONY: I`m sure I don`t think shared it with you. When I heard that, I got even sick about that, because I`m like -- I thought I knew my daughter. I don`t know what`s going on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The very patient Kathi Belich, who is a reporter for the CNN affiliate WFTV, put this in context for us, because we`re getting inundated with so much information.

How can we sort this out in terms of its importance to this case for the prosecution, and you never know, possibly the defense, as well?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: Well, one of the things that I think we haven`t heard yet is that George Anthony said that he had actually asked Caylee if she had a good day with Zani, because Casey had quite frequently talked about Zani, and he said that she never registered any, even slight bit of recognition to that name.

And that she would use people`s names and talk about people that she knew, that she was familiar with, that she spent time with, and he did think that was odd. But he said that she never seemed to know who Zani was. And, of course, nobody knows who this Zani is.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And, you know, Mark Williams -- we`re going to go to the phones in a second, but Mark Williams, I want to ask you. These are parents -- obviously, it`s a natural inclination for parents to want to protect their child.

Do you get a sense that they kind of -- especially George, just spilled his guts, said whatever was the truth to the FBI, and then suddenly realized the implications of it. Oh, my gosh, I`m starting to realize what I said, and that accounts for a lot of the backtracking, like the tape we saw of him saying that was not my grandchild in that car.

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: That happened after a report was released earlier this year, about a decomposing body in the back of Casey`s Pontiac Sunbird.

George is the guy with the deer in the headlines routine. He doesn`t want to believe it, but as an investigator, he does believe it. Cindy Anthony runs that family. There is no doubt about it. You`ve seen her in all the media interviews. She`s the one who said there is a damn dead body in the back of the car when she called 911.

A couple days later, she says, oh, well, that was the smell of a dead -- of a pizza filled with maggots. So, you know, you`re seeing kind of dysfunctionality at its very best.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, yes, and there`s more dysfunctionality to come. Wait until we tell you about the pyramid, the Nigerian pyramid scene that George admits that he was involved in. That`s coming up in a second.

But first, the phone lines. Dawn from Pennsylvania, thanks for your patience, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, thank you. I just wanted to know if she was on any type of illegal drugs like coke or crack or meth or anything like that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Drew Petrimoulx, obviously, that has been explored quite a bit. What do we know?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Talking about Casey here, right?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.

PETRIMOULX: Yes, well, when you talk to her friends, they did say that she did smoke some marijuana and that she was drinking a lot heavily. But you know, everyone says she wasn`t doing any hard-core drugs, where she would be involved in any kind of, you know, serious drug-related crimes or stuff like that. So, you know, it was basically just, you know, marijuana and alcohol.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, I want to contrast what these grandparents said to the FBI, and this was months ago, with the way they`re acting now. And essentially, what they`re saying now is, we believe little Caylee is still alive, and they actually take very seriously these alleged sightings that the authorities say, forget about it. They`re not real.

Caylee is dead. And I want to show you -- I have a photograph right here of one of the alleged sightings. Let me try to line it up here. Yes, there you go. This is taken with a cell phone camera at a Florida shopping mall, and I`ve got to say that, Leonard Padilla, the problem with these kinds of sightings is that with a grainy cell phone camera, kids look very similar to each other.

And there`s really no way to distinguish one from another, even though they -- they kind of look alike.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTERSEARCHING FOR CAYLEE: I have -- I have seen little 3-year-olds, and they all, believe it or not, look alike. I`ve gotten pictures, e-mailed to me from New Jersey, about, you know, the neighbor has her

Let me backtrack something on the Zani. Zani is not short for Zenaida. Zani is Xanax.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, there`s various interpretations.

PADILLA: Right. But it doesn`t have anything to do with Zenaida, because she never knew Zenaida, never ran into Zenaida prior to the 17th of June when she was at the apartments.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right. Well, they -- at one point Cindy said that Zani was whoever was taking care of little Caylee. In other words -- and there was also claims that the brother said that Casey was speaking in code. So it`s all cuckoo for cuckoo for coco puffs kind of behavior.

As we go to break, we ask for your thoughts and prayers for defense attorney Sandy Schiff. She is in a fight of a lifetime battling for leukemia. Starting another round of chemo treatment.

Sandy Schiff, we are thinking of you. Our prayers are with you. Please stay strong.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You obviously are aware that they have sent -- sent those on to the labs and they`re waiting -- awaiting results as to what that may or may not be, identifiable, within the stain.

G. ANTHONY: I know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t tell you what it may or may not be. But I can tell you what I think it is. I think it`s going to come back with human DNA. Those kinds of stains don`t show up in trunks of cars out of the blue.

G. ANTHONY: That`s something we all understand.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: They`re talking about the stain in the trunk.

I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace.

Bombshell developments as missing tot Caylee`s grandparents George and Cindy Anthony talk to the FBI. The videotape just released. We`re cutting it and bringing it to you as fast as we can. It`s kind of like being a fly on the wall of a horrible family tragedy.

We`re going to get to the phone lines in a second, but first, Kathi Belich, tell us about George admitting that he got sucked into a Nigerian pyramid scheme?

BELICH: He said that a couple years ago he had been unemployed for some time with a disability knee injury, and that he got this e-mail saying he had won $2.2 million. He said he was silly enough to give some personal information, and he lost a lot of money for the family. Thousands of dollars.

And he actually told Cindy that he gambled it away. He lied to her about how that happened, but he says that caused a lot of tension between the two of them, and they had serious financial problems.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lillian Glass, psychologist, we all wonder how did Casey become such a liar. Well, here you -- here it is evidenced that dad lied to mom. So when truth is a dead issue in the household, that`s what the kids learn.

LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "I KNOW WHAT YOU`RE THINKING": Absolutely. The apple doesn`t fall too far from the tree and -- when you talk about lying. And she, obviously, learned this behavior somewhere because they put up with her lying.

She`s been lying for years. They`ve let her get away with it, instead of saying, hey, wait a minute, this girl needs some help.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And it`s a cautionary tale. I mean if lying is tolerated in the household and the parents do it, don`t be surprised if your kids turn into pathological liars.

Let`s go to the phone lines. Lisa from Indiana, what`s your question or thought, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I`m glad to see you`re giving Nancy a break tonight.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, she`s got the night off and she`s with her twins, but she`s going to be back here on Monday, and please tune in and see her then.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I sure will. And my question is, I noticed that Casey`s mother and her father also said that there was maggots in the car, in the trunk. Now, could there be, like, maggots eating the flesh of the body, you know, to the bone?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, gee, that -- I don`t even want to visualize that, but Dr. David Posey, medical examiner, take us to that trunk and the whole controversy between the pizza and whether or not that was the smell or whether it was a dead body.

DR. DAVID M. POSEY, MEDICAL EXAMINER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, GLEN OAKS PATHOLOGY MEDICAL GROUP: Well, yes. I really think that it`s a dead body in the trunk of the car. Maggots are fly larvae, and in other words, flies that got in. They had contacted the body, they laid their eggs, and so once the body is removed, some of the larvae were still there, maybe hadn`t hatched yet, and that`s what you`re finding the results of.

I doubt seriously if there is any fly larvae planting on the pizza. So I think we`re dealing with a dead body here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I -- think you`re right. Certainly the police believe that.

Let`s go to a heart-breaking comment that George made to the FBI about the last time he saw Caylee alive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your gut feeling, if I`m hearing you right, while this is proceeding from June 15th up until this point, is something is not right.

G. ANTHONY: Well, actually, it`s June 16th. That`s the last time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 16th, 16th, that`s what I`m saying.

G. ANTHONY: That`s the last time I saw my daughter and granddaughter together.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Up until the 24th when you just saw your daughter by herself.

G. ANTHONY: I just saw her by herself. That`s the last time -- that`s I saw my granddaughter on the 16th, because I was watching the Food Channel before going to work, this one guy you always watch. And I know it`s 10 minutes to 1:00, I`m positive there, because I looked and they were coming -- my granddaughter had her backpack on, my daughter had some stuff or backpack and stuff for work.

She was dressed, I believe, in work attire, and she says, dad, you know, I`m on my way to work, Caylee is going to Zani`s house. I`ll be working late, so we`ll be staying over tonight. We`ll see you guys tomorrow.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. That is a heart-breaker, talking about the last time grand dad saw his beloved granddaughter alive.

Vince Velazquez, homicide detective, that was on June 16th. Cindy doesn`t call 911 until she`s had it with her daughter`s cookie explanations. That`s an entire month that is relatively unaccounted for. Vince?

VINCE VELAZQUEZ, HOMICIDE DETECTIVE, ATLANTA METRO AREA, HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR: I`m here. She basically was worried about her daughter and at some point when it came to light, she had to make a decision and the decision was to call 911. She knows what happened. I think the family is in denial, unfortunately.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I think the family is in denial, and you kind of see that. And your heart goes out for them. I mean, who could -- none of us can judge how we would handle this kind of situation, so I certainly don`t think we should judge the grandparents.

Zoe, in Florida, what is your question, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just wondered where the brother is. He was supposed to be so close to her. Why don`t they question him? And maybe she has told him something.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Mark Williams, I`m sure they have questioned -- I know they have questioned the brother.

WILLIAMS: Yes, yes. He was -- he was questioned right off the bottom. And the deal is, he was very close to Casey during her first arrest, and of course, when Leonard Padilla and his nephew, Tony, bail her out of jail, they were close. They have questioned him.

He has been nonexistent over the past couple of months. He`s trying to get his life back together. From what we understand, he`s an accountant in downtown Orlando. And the deal is, he has just kept a -- he`s kept a low profile. Nobody has been able really to see him, and he has not surfaced among any of the media outings that have taken place.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it`s going to be absolutely fascinating to see what happens with this videotape. One thing I can guarantee you, the jurors who hear this case are going to be watching that tape and perhaps over and over again. It`s going to be a key part of this entire case against Casey Anthony.

But first tonight, "CNN HEROES."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Heroes.

JOHN LEGEND, SINGER/SONGWRITER: Last year, in October, I visited Mbola, Tanzania. The folks are starting with supreme disadvantage. Most of them are living on less than a dollar a day. It`s difficult for them to even survive. And that`s where I met Mama.

MWADAWA "MAMA" RUZIGA, COMMUNITY CRUSADER: My name is Mwadawa Ruziga. I`m the leader of the group that uses local fruits to make jam, wine and juice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (Through translator): Before I joined the group, my life was at an all-time low. But slowly my life changed for the better.

RUZIGA: We sell our products at different trade shows. Now the members are more educated and the money they make helps them to take care of their basic needs.

LEGEND: I was really inspired by the willingness to not just kind of wait for a handout but really take an active role in helping to uplift their community.

RUZIGA: The group has really lifted my life and give me hope.

LEGEND: Mama Ruziga, she`s a leader. She`s inspirational and she`s one of my heroes.

ANNOUNCER: CNN Heroes. An all-star tribute. Thanksgiving night on CNN.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: "CNN HEROES" is sponsored by.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And now a look back at the stories making the rest of the headlines this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tragically, we are confident that this child is dead.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: In some of their strongest language yet, a spokesman for the lead agency in the search for Caylee Anthony says any hopes of finding her alive are false hope.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: An 8-year-old Arizona boy who`s accused of killing his father and another man. He faces two counts of premeditated murder.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How many times do you think you fired the gun?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think twice.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Breaking news. Just moments ago an Illinois judge totally dismissing felony gun charges against Drew Peterson.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: News flash. It`s not going to be upheld. The judge, Judge Richard Schoenstedt, had a little hair fit in court today because the prosecution would not do what he told them to. But the prosecutors don`t work for the judge any more than the defense does.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: According to text messages from tot mom Casey Anthony`s cell phone, her nighttime activities are being heavily restricted by her daughter Caylee. Multiple text messages from the tot mom in May show that Anthony was desperate to go out with friends and hit the party scene but could not because it would mean leaving her then 2-year-old daughter Caylee home alone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: End up going to that no clothes party which we`ve all seen the pictures from with her and that American flag. And then at the end of June she.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait. The no clothes party? Did you say no clothes, C-L-O-T-H-E-S? No clothing party?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight let`s stop to remember Army Private Branden Haunert, 21, from Cincinnati, Ohio. Killed in Iraq. He left his studies at University of Cincinnati to enlist.

He had a heart of gold and loved playing baseball and spending time with his brothers. He leaves behind parents Bill and Tammy and five brothers.

Branden Haunert, an American hero.

Thanks to all of our guests for their insights. Thanks to you at home for tracking this very important case with us. And be sure to check out "ISSUES" with me, Jane Velez-Mitchell, every night right here at 7:00 p.m. Eastern.

Nancy Grace will be back Monday at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. Until then have a terrific and a safe evening.

END


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« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2008, 07:31:08 AM »

NANCY GRACE

George Anthony Describes Smell of Dead Body in Daughter Casey`s Trunk

Aired November 24, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 23 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell. Just released, FBI questioning grandparents George and Cindy Anthony, hours and hours, and all caught on videotape. The feds take the Anthonys step-by-step through the day Caylee goes missing, their reaction to the smell of human decomposition in the tot mom`s trunk, all the way to mom Casey stealing from her toddler`s own piggy bank.

In their own words, we hear the Anthonys wrestling with theories about what happened to Caylee, new details about the mysterious nanny the tot mom accuses of kidnapping the 2-year-old, and even more of mom Casey`s web of lies, and tot mom Casey Anthony caught red-handed stealing from everybody - - parents, friends, even stealing from Caylee`s piggy bank and college savings, grandparents, great-grandparents. Finally, the grandparents` response? They insist they were, quote, "ambushed" by the FBI.

The defense goes to court to fight the gag order. And tonight, we finally obtain the defense witness list. This as the search for Caylee goes on. And another bombshell. Has there been another alleged sighting of the little girl. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: We walk through a particular gate where this public lot`s at. I got within three feet of my daughter`s car and -- the worst odor that you could possibly smell in this -- in this world. And I`ve smelled that odor before. It smelled like a decomposed body. I`m being very straight with you guys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I got a sick feeling for a second because the car was all closed up, and if you`re from me to you away from it, you can smell an odor. You don`t forget that odor, no matter what it is. You never, ever forget it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would agree with you. And you know this because?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Being a deputy sheriff for all the years I was, I have investigated...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You had exposure to decomposing bodies?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes.

I don`t know why I stuck the key in the ignition. I started to turn it, and I`m, like, No, George, you can`t do this. You`re doing this wrong. I looked in the back seat a little bit more. I didn`t see anything. I looked around as quick as I could. I scanned. I mean, I`m looking for everything.

And I told the guy, I said, Can you walk around with me to the rear of the car? He says, Why? And I said, Man, there is a smell in this car, and I`ve just got to know where it`s coming from. And as I walked around the back of that car, before I stuck the key in it, I did whisper to myself, I hope it`s not my daughter or my granddaughter. I felt that in my heart. I felt that. I`m, like, Please don`t let it be either one of them.

I went around the driver`s side, the guy was almost as close to you and I, walking right behind me. And as I opened up the door, that smell took my breath away. I mean, it was that strong. I reached over to the passenger door and went like this, and had to open the passenger door because I had to let this thing vent for a little because, I mean, it was just that overpowering.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Hours and hours of FBI interrogation of grandparents Cindy and George Anthony. Today they say that they were ambushed.

Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: As far as other moneys that my daughter was taking, she took a small quarter coin collection that I had. And I know she has been taking money from my granddaughter`s bank because I`m always dropping a buck, 5 bucks, quarters. You know, one day you go in there and that bank is heavy. And it`s a good-size piggy bank. And you know you put money in there. You know it. There`s nothing.

She`s taken money from my wife`s purse...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. You started to...

GEORGE ANTHONY: Twenty dollars, forty dollars, maybe more than that at a time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You started to use the word there that you hesitated in -- you started to say -- you stopped.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Steal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that how you feel about it or is that how your wife feels about it?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there any doubt in your mind that`s what she was doing?

GEORGE ANTHONY: No because we have all the information that she`s done it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Three deposit slips that she had -- she had forged a deposit slip for $4,400.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With your mother`s name -- with her mother`s name on it?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes, with our account.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever hear Caylee talk about Zanny?

GEORGE ANTHONY: No. No. Because, as a matter of fact, we didn`t even bring up Zanny`s name. Our granddaughter is a pretty bright little girl. No, she never...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She never said Zanny?

GEORGE ANTHONY: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never talked about her nanny?

GEORGE ANTHONY: No, never said anything in those regards whatsoever.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you think is the more likely scenario? Do you think it`s more likely that -- as she says, Zanny knocked her to the ground and took Caylee? Or do you think it`s more likely that the -- and I understand completely. I`m asking for a gut reaction. I`m not asking because you know anything, but...

GEORGE ANTHONY: All right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s hard for us, considering the circumstances surrounding what`s going on...

GEORGE ANTHONY: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... to go with a theory where she`s telling us who these people are and none of them are identifiable. None of her family has ever met her nanny.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: None of her friends outside of the new friends -- actually, none of the new friends know who Zanny is.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Hours and hours of videotaped questioning by the FBI of George and Cindy Anthony just released. Their response? They say they were ambushed by the feds. We are taking your calls live.

Out to Mark Williams WNDB Newstalk. Mark, what`s the latest?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: ... FBI videos that have been released by the FBI, the interviews of George and Cindy Anthony, George admits on those videos that when he got to the tow yard, he could smell that smell of death, the odor coming from the car. He says it`s the worst odor you could ever expect in your lifetime, and he says you can`t forget that odor. Secondly, the video...

GRACE: Hold on. Hold on. Let`s take a listen to what Mark Williams just described. Everybody, we`re taking your calls live, and we are talking about in the last hours, the FBI releases hours of interrogation tapes of George and Cindy Anthony. The two of them tell very, very different stories. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: As I open up the trunk, I was glad because there was -- my daughter or my granddaughter weren`t there. I`m thankful for that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

GEORGE ANTHONY: But there was a trash bag. I don`t know what size gallon. It was a kitchen-type trash bag. It was white in color, almost semi -- it was almost transparent. Inside of it, I could see a pizza box. I couldn`t make it out what pizza it was. But there was pizza full of maggots and all kinds of stuff, an odor that was very, very, very strong. Also inside that container was an Arm `n Hammer liquid laundry detergent bottle stuck inside of it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I did not touch it. The guy reached inside and he says, Oh, this is where your smell is coming from, and took it real quick and dumped it, dropped it in a dumpster which was probably 20 or 30 feet away from where we were at.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In describing where the pizza bag -- the trash bag with the pizza was, where was it, left or right? Inside...

GEORGE ANTHONY: OK, this is the trunk of the car. Over where the left rear taillight`s at. The bag was closer to that taillight area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Left rear taillight?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes. That`s where I found that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And the stain was -- if this is the left rear taillight down here...

GEORGE ANTHONY: The stain was almost directly right in the center because that`s where the spare tire cover and stuff is. That`s where the spare tire`s at.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To the best of your knowledge, did you ask the tow truck driver or anybody that was on the lot that day had they been in the car or done anything to the car? You didn`t ask that?

GEORGE ANTHONY: I didn`t even ask. And as a matter of fact -- I`m crazy. I wish in some ways I just would have left it the way it was. But I couldn`t stand the smell. I mean, even the pizza had a particular odor to it that was just -- whew. It would take you back. But this specific odor...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Distinct smell outside...

GEORGE ANTHONY: It was a totally different smell. It`s -- garbage and this other decomposition smell are totally different. That`s very distinguishable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The girl that you described to me earlier on the general assessment is a very well-rounded, well-adjusted, intelligent young lady.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: I`m not -- I`m not...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But what she`s asking to you believe at this point -- and I`m just trying -- I`m throwing it out there objectively. What she`s asking to you believe at this point is that she`s acted so far out of character that she now believes that somebody has her child and is going to do harm not only to the child or her but now to the family, but she doesn`t want to tell anybody, but she wants to give us clues to go find them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, on the story from the get-go. Natisha, what has been the Anthonys` response to the release of these FBI questioning tapes?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, according to reports, Nancy, they have said that they feel like they were ambushed, they were not aware that they were being videotaped give whatsoever, and they said that this speaks volumes to that the sheriff`s office is no longer looking for Caylee. But they said that`s OK because they`re still looking for Caylee. But they think the sheriff`s office is more interested in building a case against Casey.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. We`re taking your calls live. With us, family law attorney Susan Moss, Alex Sanchez, veteran defense attorney, and Kirby Clements, former prosecutor turned defense attorney joining us out of Atlanta. Susan Moss, weigh in.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: She stole money from Caylee`s piggy bank? What was she, buying chloroform with nickels? This is outrageous. They say that she was -- this family has been ambushed. Well, they`ve been ambushed with the truth, and the truth is, is that we should be looking for a body and we should be preparing for this trial.

GRACE: Alex Sanchez, the grandparents say they were ambushed. Are the feds under any duty to tell potential witnesses they are being videotaped?

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, they may not be under any duty, but I can see why the Anthonys feel that they were ambushed. Why is this tape being released? If the prosecution is so concerned that the general public is going to be polluted by improper information, how come they didn`t go to court and try to prevent this information from coming out?

GRACE: You know, Alex, I really appreciate that. But to you, Kirby Clements -- Kirby Clements, off what Sanchez just said, what tainted information? It`s their statements. And why are they -- I understand they didn`t realize the tapes were going to be made public. But it seems to me that they would be more worried about the smell of death in the car, more than the tapes being made public.

KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s true. But at the same time, you have to factor in that they`re also claiming that they believe this little girl is alive. And they feel as though that the police are not doing their job in looking for this girl and trying to follow up on these leads of this child has been spotted elsewhere. So releasing this information now and -- just serves to create more confusion and it makes them think they`re not...

GRACE: Confusion? Who? What confused? I`m not confused. Are you confused, Kirby?

CLEMENTS: Well, at this point, they haven`t found a body. At this point...

GRACE: So what are you confused about, Kirby?

CLEMENTS: I`m confused, like the police are confused. They haven`t come forward with a body, with definitive evidence to show us exactly what took place, how this child died...

GRACE: Oh, really? Because they found evidence of human decomposition in the back of that trunk, and Caylee`s gone. I believe you can still add two plus two and get four, Kirby.

CLEMENTS: Well, that doesn`t mean that the mother killed her, and that`s the point. She`s on trial for killing the child.

GRACE: Well put. Well put.

Everyone, quickly, program note. This Thursday night, a special NANCY GRACE INVESTIGATES, in-depth look at the critical first 24 hours after Caylee reported missing. Then Friday, the critical first 30 days of the Caylee Anthony investigation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Because I asked her, I said, Who are you protecting? Are you protecting Caylee? Yes. Are you protecting me? Yes. Are you protecting your dad? Yes. Are you protecting your brother? Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Protecting from what?

CINDY ANTHONY: And that`s what I specifically asked her. I asked her, Are you protecting from our feelings being hurt, from something bad happening, you know, that you don`t think we can handle it? And she says, No, it`s not emotional. She says, It`s physical.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you say she says you`re too upset, what were you upset about that she noticed?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Oh, number one is where we believed our daughter was at, our granddaughter, she`s not there. She can`t be in Jacksonville if her car`s here in Orlando. That`s impossible. Why did it take us so long to find all this information out? I mean, that`s 15 days, you know? If we could have got a call from these guys on the 30th, on July 1, we could have been further into all this kind of stuff than we`re at right now. That was very upsetting to me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the smell upset you, as well?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Oh, yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Bombshell tonight. Hours and hours of FBI interrogation of George and Cindy Anthony have just been released. The Anthonys say they were ambushed by the FBI. We are taking your calls live. Also tonight, we get, finally, the defense witness list. To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Who`s on the list?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Three people. One of them you`ll know from your show, Dr. Koby (ph). Another one is Dr. Henry Lee, a very famous guy from the O.J. Simpson trial. And then there`s another man named Larry Daniel. He`s a computer forensics specialist and he`s going to be there, analyzing the computer forensics on the stuff that was found on the computer and also cell phone records.

GRACE: Well, wait a minute. Drew, Drew Petrimoulx, where are all the people that tot mom Casey Anthony says she told Caylee was missing?

PETRIMOULX: Right. Well, I mean, you know that you can add to these lists, you know...

GRACE: Yes.

PETRIMOULX: ... before the trial starts. And this is weird because there`s only three people on her list. But if you look over at the state attorney`s list, there`s over 83 witnesses that will be coming, including 34 from the sheriff`s office. So the size of the lists of both these teams is, you know, hugely different.

GRACE: Well, let`s unleash the lawyers -- Susan Moss, Alex Sanchez, Kirby Clements. Alex Sanchez, where are all the witnesses?

SANCHEZ: Well, look, the defense has made a decision that the only legitimate defense to take in this case is a forensic defense. What are they going to call, character witnesses on behalf of Caylee -- Casey? That`s highly unlikely.

GRACE: No. What about all the witnesses they claimed they had that she made outcry to?

SANCHEZ: Right. But once...

GRACE: Outcry is, everyone, a term of art that refers to a witness to whom a victim first tells their story or a witness first tells their story. Where are they?

SANCHEZ: Yes. An outcry witness usually doesn`t apply in a case like this. It may apply in, let`s say, a rape case, but not in a case like this.

GRACE: No, Alex. Actually, outcry witness is now expanded to all types of cases, when you first tell someone what happened. For instance, all the people she said she told, My daughter is missing. Where are they?

SANCHEZ: Well, they`ve determined that they`re not going to take that route. It`s a forensic defense, attack all the forensic evidence in the case...

GRACE: You know what, Alex?

SANCHEZ: ... call in the great evidence -- the great experts and try to destroy the prosecution`s case.

GRACE: You know what, Alex? Contrary to what many people may believe after hearing what you just said, I respect you because you said that with such a straight face. You could actually argue that to a jury.

To you, Kirby Clements. The kicker is the state, the prosecutor, cannot comment in front of the jury about the defense`s failure to call these witnesses. Why? It is tantamount to commenting on the right to remain silent. What about that?

CLEMENTS: I think it`s a great rule. That`s what the Constitution is there for. In this case, the prosecution doesn`t have a body. Why should the defense concede murder, concede death, and then try to argue, Well, let me tell you the reasons why this happened? No. They have to fight this case all the way through, and the prosecution should not be allowed to comment on the defendant`s right to remain silent.

GRACE: But Susan Moss, there is a around it. When the defense doesn`t bring all the witnesses they say they`ve got, the state cannot comment on that at trial in front of the jury unless -- until and unless the defense brings them up first. So if the defense attorney, Jose Baez, in this case mentions all these people -- Tot mom Casey Anthony said my daughter`s missing, my daughter`s missing -- then the state can say, Hey, jury, where are they?

MOSS: That`s right. It`s akin to opening up the door and allowing the prosecution in. But the truth is, it`s indisputable that the funk from the trunk smells worse than a dead skunk. There`s enough evidence here to show, through the "body farm" and the other experts, that there was a dead body decomposing in that car and that`s going to make the difference.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Erica in South Carolina. Hi, Erica.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I just have to say my mother and I both watch you and we`ve loved you for years.

GRACE: Thank you, Erica in South Carolina. Thank you very much. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is -- well, on Friday, you guys mentioned -- and I think it was a good point -- that the mother and the father -- or especially the mother, Cindy -- seem to be enabling and co- dependent. But in watching the tapes, the initial tapes, they seemed more forthcoming and more truthful in the early days.

And I`m wondering if they feel guilty and are kind of overcompensating now and are in denial because of the fact of the type of careers they had? They were absentee parents a lot because nurses work 12-hour shifts, and then police officers are having long shifts. And so I`m thinking that the tot mom, Casey, she learned how to -- lying for attention-seeking at an early age. And it`s something that (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: Well, you know, Erica, I think you`ve got a good point, but I don`t want to shift too much blame onto the parents because if you call them absentee parents, basically, every working parent in this country is an absentee parent. What about it, Stacy Kaiser, psychotherapist out of LA?

STACY KAISER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: First of all, these parents are victims. And if we say that about them, it`s just what you said, Nancy. There are lots of families with two working parents, and their kids are not being accused of murder.

GRACE: You know what? You`re right. And Stacy, both of my parents worked really long hours, but I never considered them to be absentee parents. Stacy?

KAISER: Yes. Yes. No. I mean, they`re not absentee parents. And even if they were, that doesn`t make for children who steal and lie to police officers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: As I open up the trunk, I was glad because there was -- my daughter or my granddaughter weren`t there. I`m thankful for that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

GEORGE ANTHONY: But there was a trash bag. I don`t know what size gallon. It was a kitchen-type trash bag. It was white in color, almost semi -- it was almost transparent. Inside of it, I could see a pizza box. I couldn`t make it out what pizza it was. But there was pizza full of maggots and all kinds of stuff, an odor that was very, very, very strong. Also inside that container was an Arm `n Hammer liquid laundry detergent bottle stuck inside of it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I did not touch it. The guy reached inside and he says, Oh, this is where your smell is coming from, and took it real quick and dumped it, dropped it in a dumpster which was probably 20 or 30 feet away from where we were at.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: In addition to hours of FBI interrogation tapes being released on George and Cindy Anthony, we also learned the defense witness list has been released. To John Lucich, former investigator and author of "Cyber Lies." John Lucich, one of them is a computer forensics expert. What will they do with that, the defense?

JOHN LUCICH, FORMER INVESTIGATOR: Well, there`s no doubt about it. His whole job is going to be refuting the evidence that they found. He`s going to attempt to show that those searches could have been done by anybody. These investigators, I`m sure, know the computer forensics process inside and out. They`re going to take a look at e-mail that could only have been sent by Casey Anthony, send and receive, match those dates and times to the computer searches and you`re going to be able to show that Casey Anthony was on the computer at that time when those searches were being done.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am just throwing it out there because.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: How.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: . that`s what she`s asking us to believe.

C. ANTHONY: I`m normally a very rational, you know, person that would think things through before I would speak.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

C. ANTHONY: OK? Now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s very evident.

C. ANTHONY: . it`s very obvious that on those 911 calls, I was scared to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) because I didn`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

C. ANTHONY: . what was going on and I did and said whatever I needed to do to get help.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But what you did.

C. ANTHONY: So you see things, anything that she`s.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But what you did made sense.

C. ANTHONY: But we don`t.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What she is doing doesn`t make sense.

C. ANTHONY: It doesn`t make sense but it would if we find Caylee. If we find Caylee and if she`s with this person, then isn`t it going to make sense that she was trying to.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If she was giving us clues that would actually lead us to this person but all the clues that she`s given have led us away from the situation.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I had a savings account for my daughter -- for granddaughter at Wachovia Bank. I was the executor on it and my daughter was the assistant or she was like the second executor on it.

I gave her the permission -- bank to sign everything that she could go and deposit and/or take funds out if needed in an emergency, not just to take it out any time. That account was up $3, $400 and there`s maybe $5 in it right now.

I mean I had director deposit. I don`t even have that anymore because every time that I went to check on my daughter`s -- my granddaughter`s account, guess what? The money is gone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Hours and hours of interrogation by the FBI. These tapes released of George and Cindy Anthony, caught on tape, two very, very different stories about their daughter, tot mom Casey Anthony.

Out to the lines, Deanna in Michigan. Hi, Deanna.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello?

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First, I love your show. You -- I love your twins.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have twins myself. The older they get, the easier they are and the more fun they are.

GRACE: Good to know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. My question is we have pretty much proven proof that Casey was seen leaving the woods with a shovel and she borrowed a shovel but it seems to be that they`re concentrating on the swamps and the rivers.

And I`m just wondering why they`re spending so much time in the rivers when, you know, she obviously had a shovel?

GRACE: You know, that`s an excellent question, Deanna in Michigan.

Let`s go out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, Sacramento, California, who is resuming the search for little Caylee.

Leonard, there were several sightings of a woman who fits Casey Anthony`s description with a shovel. We know the neighbors place her taking a shovel from them. Why are you looking in a river?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPING TO SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: The shovel she borrowed from the neighbor she returned to the neighbor and the detectives from the Orange County Sheriff`s Office were seen carrying it in a bag, and it`s probably still sitting in the Orange County Sheriff`s Office evidence locker.

There was no sighting of her that`s valid as far as going or coming out of a forest. Casey would never step five foot into the brush. She just not geared that way. The shovel was used in the backyard that day to fish her child out of the pool after she tried to fake a drowning.

GRACE: OK. To Mark Williams of WNDB, am I to understand correctly from Padilla that the multiple sightings of a woman who fits tot mom`s description coming out of a wooded area near the Orlando International Airport, all of those have been discredited?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: From what we understand, Nancy, that is the case. I mean, you know, there`s -- this person that said that he saw a woman come out of a wooded area with a floppy hat and some sunglasses and a shovel. And that`s been about it. The reason that they`re searching.

GRACE: Well, no, hold on, because another person was in the car with him and they both saw the same thing and in addition to that, a female driver thought she saw a friend`s car and then realized that the bumper stickers didn`t match and saw a woman in that same area coming out that matched Casey Anthony`s description.

So all three of them are wrong?

WILLIAMS: I`m not saying that, but they have, obviously, discounted that for some reasoning that they have not told us about. They`re concentrating, of course, Nancy, and we`ve had this on the show before, about where those pings from the cell phone were and they`ve been, you know, close to her house, near Blanchard Park, places like that near the Orlando Airport.

GRACE: And at Orlando International Airport where, apparently, I believe you`re the one that told me that some of those sightings were near the airport.

WILLIAMS: They were near the airport. They were near some railroad tracks, from what we can gather because.

GRACE: Well, then why are they discredited?

WILLIAMS: I -- Nancy, I wish I could tell you. But obviously.

GRACE: But you agree they have been discredited.

WILLIAMS: I would say right now they have been discredited because.

GRACE: You assume they`ve been discredited.

WILLIAMS: Well, Nancy, they.

GRACE: But you don`t know they`ve been discredited?

WILLIAMS: Nancy, they have checked through 5,000 tips and leads and after that there has been really nothing coming out of that wooded area. Again, they`re searching in other areas where they had the cell phone pings.

GRACE: OK. Everybody, take a listen to what is caught on tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: As far as other moneys that my daughter was taking, she took a small quarter coin collection that I had. I know she`s been taking from my granddaughter`s bank because I`m always dropping five bucks, quarters, you know, one day you go in there in that bank is heavy. I mean it`s a good sized piggybank and you know you put money in there, you know it.

There`s nothing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you saw a stain in the trunk?

G. ANTHONY: Yes. Probably about the size of a basketball maybe just a little bit -- not completely circular. It had some.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was -- not as certain.

G. ANTHONY: Yes -- right. To draw a particular design on it, that I couldn`t do, but I can -- I can tell you, I did stick my nose as close as I could get to it, and man, it`s a very strong odor. It`s right where the spare tire`s at -- spare time cover.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it where the pizza was sitting? It was not where the pizza was?

G. ANTHONY: Yes, it was more in the center of the trunk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Joining us right now is an exclusive guest tonight, Richard Grund, this is Jesse Grund`s father out of Orlando. Before we go to him, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: Richard Grund, G-R-U-N-D. He and my wife spoke probably about 10-15 minutes last night because I was doing other things. I didn`t get a chance to call him back.

And there was a little heated discussion from Richard with my wife. My wife, I believe, handled very, very diplomatically. And he said he`s going to bring up all this stuff about our daughter being a liar and all this stuff. So I don`t know where this is all going at the moment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Richard Grund, Jesse Grund`s father, what do you make of that?

RICHARD GRUND, FATHER OF JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: I have to tell you I was pretty shocked to be listening to this testimony and about four minutes in to hear my name mentioned and to hear -- for no reason, the FBI didn`t ask him anything, George just felt compelled to tell him about my conversation with Cindy. So I`m shocked and really disappointed in George.

GRACE: Well, under the circumstances, though, Richard, they -- can`t find their granddaughter. They think maybe their daughter`s implicated, I have to cut them some slack but what things did Casey Anthony tell you?

GRUND: Well, you know, Nancy, you may want to cut him some slack but when you have been in their living room three nights before hugging their neck telling them, look, we love you and we`ll do anything for you.

GRACE: True.

GRUND: And then you find out they`re trying to implicate your son for the sake of their daughter, I have a little hard time with that.

GRACE: Agree. Agree. What did Casey Anthony tell you?

GRUND: Casey would sit at our dinner table while she waited for Jesse to get home from work and she would just vent. She would just tell me everything what was going on in her family`s life, how much she hated her father for the gambling debts and losing $30,000 of the family`s money, not $10,000.

The fact that she thought her father was cheating on her mother. She didn`t want him to come home. She told me about, you know, a lot of the inner workings. And I`m not sure what it was that got them startled enough that they wanted to do a proactive thing and tell the FBI, but I just basically told Cindy Anthony after hearing one of their lawyers slander my son, I said that`s it. I`m just going to answer any question anybody has about you and your family.

GRACE: And tell me something, did you and George Anthony have a conversation at a prayer vigil?

GRUND: Yes.

GRACE: What happened?

GRUND: The second week of the prayer vigil was Sunday the 27th, I think. I had actually contacted George that morning. I was going to start calling in favors from my friends in law enforcement and military intelligence and see what I could find out, but I gave him the message and said, George, if I`m going to harm Caylee by shaking the trees, let me know.

He immediately called me up and said, look, I want to talk to you. I`ve been wanting to talk to you. We tried to meet that afternoon. Then he said why don`t you come by the prayer vigil. Well, my wife and I went to the prayer vigil and stood there for three hours while George disappeared.

Finally Lee said, look, come inside and sit down with us. George finally came out about 11:00 and walked us out to the car. I hit him with a couple of things. I said, George, what about the smell in the car? I said you know what that smell is. And he said, well, yes, it could be this. It could be that.

And I said, no, you know what that smell is. If it`s not Caylee, who is it? He goes, I don`t know. And then I asked , you know, him about Casey. And he`s finally said, look, I believe my daughter finally ripped off the wrong person. And as I was leaving I looked at him and I said, George, what has your daughter gotten herself into?

And this is after him telling me I know my daughter hasn`t had a job in two years. I know that. And he said, I don`t know what she`s got herself into.

GRACE: Everybody, we are taking your calls live. And as we go to break tonight on a happy note a very special happy anniversary to Georgia friends of the show, Arthur and Ewell Johns.

They blow away all the statistics from divorce celebrating 60 years together and still going strong.

Happy anniversary, Mr. And Mrs. Johns. You give all of us hope.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She talked about Mallory?

G. ANTHONY: Yes. Because whenever we mentioned Uncle Lee`s name -- oh we`re going to see Uncle Lee today, she said Mallory? Mallory? That was something that she.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She would associate people with.

G. ANTHONY: Right. Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: . other people or things like that but you never heard her talk about Zani or Jeff or Zachary?

G. ANTHONY: Annie or any of these other friends of hers. No. I never heard my granddaughter say anything like that. Even if you ask her, did you have a good time with Zani today? There was never any brightness or anything like that come through her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

G. ANTHONY: And it`s like.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was no recognition on her part as far as you could tell?

G. ANTHONY: None, whatsoever.

And then you get these e-mails (INAUDIBLE) that some says there`s a $2.2 million in bank in the U.K. so I got involved in .

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

G. ANTHONY: I`ve fallen to that completely. I should have known better. That was stupid. Every phone number that were given to me, every address, I always followed it up with it and everything sounded legitimate and (INAUDIBLE) I got scammed.

And I have been unemployed for almost two careers because of a knee injury. I couldn`t just go back to work, I mean, I had a complete knee that was replaced.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

G. ANTHONY: And it took me -- usually it takes you about a good year to get through all of that and it just -- I took the time. And we try so - - yes, we were financially pretty tight and I just -- when this came up, I tried it. This is a quick fix for us to get back on our feet, you know, to keep our house because my wife...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was just the right time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Hours of FBI interrogation of the grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony, just released. They claim they were ambushed by the feds. The defense finally releases its witness list, three witnesses on that list.

We have one of those witnesses with us tonight, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky. Kobi, as we call him, forensic scientist of great fame actually, out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He is the paid consultant to the Anthony defense team.

Dr. Kobilinsky, you are one of three. What do you plan to talk about at trial?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Yes, that`s right.

GRACE: What do you plan to talk about at trial?

KOBILINSKY: Well, I believe I`m going to be called to discuss the DNA results. That is my area of specialization, although I have a lot of knowledge about forensic science in general. My area is really DNA.

GRACE: Among the many, many motions filed by Baez, he is also asking for additional testing on the forensic evidence. Why?

KOBILINSKY: Well, I think the defense is reserving the right to retest the air samples. I think there are a lot of issues about admissibility and reliability and validation studies and so the defense reserves the right to test that -- those samples but they may not.

GRACE: If you tested them, where would you test them?

KOBILINSKY: That`s a very good question. There is absolutely no crime lab in the United States that does the kind of testing that was done in Oak Ridge and so we have another issue about the validation and reliability of these procedures.

GRACE: But yet, Dr. Kobilinsky, when you want to use Oak Ridge Laboratories testing methods and their results to your favor, you don`t have a problem with it. But now that you are going to disagree with it, you say their testing is unreliable.

You don`t see a problem with that?

KOBILINSKY: I`m not saying it`s unreliable. What I.

GRACE: You are.

KOBILINSKY: What I`m saying is there may be an issue of admissibility in a court of law with the rules of evidence.

GRACE: Admissibility because of what? Admissibility because of what?

KOBILINSKY: Admissibility because of lack of validation studies that this procedure is not done by any other crime lab, that we don`t have error rates. There are a lot of issues.

GRACE: Kobi, Kobi, when you say lack of validation what you mean is reliability.

KOBILINSKY: Absolutely, it refers to reliability.

GRACE: You just said you`re not saying they`re not reliable but that is what you`re saying.

KOBILINSKY: That`s correct. I am not saying it`s not reliable. I`m saying that we have to determine if these procedures.

GRACE: If it`s reliable.

KOBILINSKY: . have withstood the standards set by the state for admissibility.

GRACE: Everyone, we are taking your calls, but before we go back to calls I want to tell you about another alleged sighting of little Caylee. Let`s go back to Mark Williams with WNDB News Talk 1150.

Mark, what can you tell me?

WILLIAMS: Well, there is a picture being circulated by the Kid Finders Network of a cell phone picture taken by.

GRACE: We`re showing it right now.

WILLIAMS: OK, of a 3-year-old -- what looks like a 3-year-old girl. She is white, she has brown hair and she`s having a great time. They say that that is a Caylee sighting. Right now the police departments are kind of not discounting it but they`re taking a look at the picture.

The person who snapped this picture tried to call a couple of agencies, waited for a couple of hours, didn`t get any response. Finally went over to the Web site known as Helpfindcaylee and that`s where they uploaded the pictures.

GRACE: You`re seeing a shot of the mall at which this photo was taken. Let`s see the shot again, Elizabeth. Another alleged sighting of little Caylee.

Do we know, Natisha Lance, whether cops have followed up on this?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Actually, Nancy, police are saying they are not looking into this tip whatsoever. All the evidence they have says that Caylee Anthony is dead and they are going along with that evidence and they feel as if it is ridiculous for the family to be putting other families through this trouble of trying to prove that their child is their child.

GRACE: What about it, Drew Petrimoulx? Is that true? Are police not following up on the tip?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes. They said they`re done with these wild goose chases across the country. There have been alleged sightings, you know, in Coral Springs, down in South Florida, Gainesville, all the way up to North Carolina.

So they basically said they`re done spending their resources. You know there`s 34 cops that are going to be called in to trial. So that just goes to show you how much resources the Orange County Sheriff`s Department has spent on this case.

So you know, basically, they have other things to do. They can`t follow all these leads around. They believe that Caylee is dead.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Susan Moss, Alex Sanchez, Kirby Clements.

Kirby, I know that all three of you have tried a lot of cases. Kirby, in this instance, the cops are damned if they do, damned if they don`t. If they follow up on the tip at trial the defense is going to say you weren`t convinced she was dead as recently as Thanksgiving 2008.

You were trying to find her alive. Weren`t you, officer? That`s what they`re going to say. If they don`t follow up on the tip, Kirby, at the -- at trial the defense is going to say but we gave you tips she was alive and you refused to follow up. Isn`t that true, officer?

Am I right, Kirby?

KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s absolutely correct and quite honestly, that`s the way it ought be. I mean if you`re going to try a murder case without a body, then the defense is entitled to show, hey, maybe the child is still alive or you haven`t done enough. And it`s unfortunate for the police but that`s how it`s going to be.

GRACE: Alex?

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think it`s disgraceful that the police are not looking into some legitimate tips. That`s photograph. I mean I don`t know if it`s legitimate or not. But what is wrong with sending the police down to the local area where that photograph was taken and try to determine the identity of that child. Would that be such an imposition on the police department?

GRACE: You know what, Susan Moss, I have to agree with Sanchez on this one. Do I think it`s Caylee? No. Do I think that Caylee`s most likely dead? Yes, but I`d rather them follow through and at trial say, we did it to put the parents` minds at ease.

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: I`m just afraid that one juror may be hoodwinked in thinking that this little girl is still alive and vote not guilty.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: She`s dropping us little hints every once and a wile. And it`s hard to put this all together. My son`s been working on it and friends and everything you guys talked to her about what I`ve said.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: I went around the driver`s side the guy was almost as close to you and I walking right behind me and as I opened up the door that smell took my breath away. I mean it was that strong. I reached over to the passenger door and went like this, and had to open the passenger door because I had to let this thing vent for a little because, I mean, it was just that overpowering.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The trail date is now set for January, but it looks like the defense is backing off. We don`t know what their reason for delay is.

Out to the lines, to Mary in Florida. Hi, Mary.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call.

GRACE: Yes, ma`am. What`s your question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I would like to know if Casey had a transponder in her car to pay for tolls around Orlando, probably she has.

GRACE: Good question. What do we know, Natisha Lance?

LANCE: We don`t believe that Casey has one in the car in the Pontiac. But there was one in Cindy Anthony`s car as well as George Anthony`s car. At one point, Casey did take Cindy Anthony`s car and that is when George Anthony had followed her and there are.

GRACE: Got it. I get where Mary is headed. She wants to find out if she can be traced to the transponder.

To B.J. in Florida, hi, B.J.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am wondering for this average American family, who is paying for these high priced defense people?

GRACE: Tell it. Tell is because Kobi ain`t cheap. What about it, Mark Williams? Who`s paying the bill?

WILLIAMS: Keeping their mouths shut on this one, Nancy. Nobody is saying anything about where the money is coming from or anything else. Now, remember, they had a licensing deal, allegedly, with NBC TV for pictures but, you know.

GRACE: Got it.

WILLIAMS: . Larry Garrison(ph), I guess, has that.

GRACE: Right.

Everybody, let`s stop our discussion and remember Army Specialist Kyle Norris, 22, Zanesville, Ohio, killed Iraq. Proud to serve his country. Loved handing out candy to Iraqi kids. Time with friends, paintball, video games.

Dreamed of proposing to his girlfriend Courtney and joining Ohio State Highway Patrol. Leaves behind parents, Neva and Wayne, brothers Michael and Sean, sister Tempest.

Kyle Norris, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. And tonight, a special good night from New York, friends of the show, daughter of defense attorney, Alex Sanchez, Nadia.

Isn`t she a beauty? And her friends Matt. Welcome to both of you.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8 o`clock sharp Eastern and until then, good night, friends.

END


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« Reply #45 on: November 26, 2008, 07:10:47 AM »

NANCY GRACE

Did Missing Tot`s Grandmother Withhold Evidence?

Aired November 25, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 23 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight, stunning and disturbing developments. In the last hours, allegations surface that grandmother Cindy intentionally tries to trick the FBI to save daughter Casey Anthony. How? By allegedly handing over the tot mom`s hairbrush for DNA instead of little Caylee`s the FBI asked for. This after hair in tot mom`s trunk allegedly proves a death did occur. But so far, that hair is not linked only to Caylee. Will grandmother Cindy be prosecuted for obstruction?

And just hours ago, the Anthonys hold a press conference, blasting police for stopping the search for a live Caylee, including a Caylee look- alike spotted at a shopping mall, Orlando. And today, both sides in court over a string of motions connected to the upcoming murder trial, the defense fighting tooth and nail to stop a gag order, but not a word from the defense on a motion for a speedy trial or to change the venue. Does the defense want to delay the trial? Why?

And tonight, more of the stunning FBI questioning of grandparents George and Cindy Anthony all caught on videotape. We have the video. And the search set for 2-year-old Caylee to resume. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: Science is just science, OK? There`s nothing 100 percent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Orlando station WFTV is reporting that the FBI is investigating an e-mail allegedly from Cindy Anthony that reveals she may have given investigators a hairbrush for DNA comparison that was not Caylee`s.

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t want to fight with them. I want them -- just like Padilla (ph), I don`t want to fight with them. Be responsible for what you`re doing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meanwhile, arguments were heard today in an Orlando courtroom, where a judge is deciding whether to issue a gag order in this case.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: Every single thing that has been released and leaked out into the media, Judge, has been leaked by the state attorney`s office or law enforcement.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The prosecution and the defense, the sheriff`s office, all of the attorneys and the defendant`s family can essentially say nothing about this case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They want to shut us up because they have zero by way of any witnesses that happened to Caylee Marie, zero by way of any type of confession, zero by way of how this child may or may not have died.

CINDY ANTHONY: No matter what happens to us, it`s about Caylee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, the mystery surrounding the disappearance of a young mom vanishing into thin air, Birmingham, her 1-year-old baby boy left behind at day care. Mommy never comes to pick him up. What happened to 23-year-old Nadia Kersh?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ellen Wilson (ph) is the director of ABC Day Care, where 23-year-old Nadia Kersh took her 1-year-old son Christopher every day. That`s why Wilson had to call police when Nadia didn`t pick him up. According to Nadia`s boss at Homewood`s Tria Market, Nadia left work Monday for lunch at 1:00 o`clock and didn`t come back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She didn`t miss work, so we knew something was up then. And then -- but when she found out that she didn`t go to get her son, then we knew something was terribly wrong.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Homewood police were back at Nadia`s Homewood apartment, searching for clues to her disappearance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Securing this as a crime scene, and we`re processing and gathering things to try to find, you know, financial records, medical records, things like that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s very sad. I`m glad to know that her son`s OK. That`s what really concerned me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And Nadia`s day care is concerned, as well, for her wellbeing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I have read all the reports. There is nothing there. There`s nothing concrete.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to Orlando station WFTV, the FBI is investigating whether Cindy Anthony tried to sabotage the Caylee case by allegedly giving authorities the wrong hairbrush which to compare Caylee`s DNA to. A former Anthony family spokesperson sent an e-mail to the Orlando station that was allegedly from Cindy Anthony saying that although she never lied, she also never went to the bathroom and retrieved the hairbrush only used for Caylee.

CINDY ANTHONY: Hair samples don`t mean anything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This as a showdown occurred in an Orange County court today, where arguments were heard on a wide-ranging gag order in this case.

BAEZ: I didn`t tell the public that there was alleged chloroform in the trunk of that car. I didn`t tell the public that there are allegedly chloroform searches on the Anthonys` computer. I didn`t tell the public that there was hair found in the trunk of the car that could be Caylee`s. I didn`t tell the public that that hair has post-mortem banding on it. That all came from this side of the room.

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: I got within three feet of my daughter`s car. The worst odor that you could smell in this world.

CINDY ANTHONY: It shouldn`t be about a prosecution`s case. Caylee Marie has rights. She should have the right for everybody to look for her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, we learn allegations have surfaced that mom -- grandmother Cindy Anthony, actually tried to trick the FBI. They needed a DNA match to little Caylee`s hair sample. Remember that hair found in the trunk of mom Casey`s car? Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cindy Anthony tries to give the appearance she`s cooperating with investigators, but Channel 9 has learned she and her husband, George, have been stalling for weeks in answering detectives` follow-up questions. Today, this e-mail surfaced. It appears that the Anthonys` former spokesman, Larry Garrison, says he confronted Cindy by e- mail about why she gave Casey`s hairbrush instead of Caylee`s hairbrush to investigators who wanted a DNA sample. He says Cindy`s e-mail response was this, quote, "I never lied, I just never went to my bathroom to get the hairbrush that I used only for Caylee."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Will this be tantamount to obstruction of justice? Straight out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Kathi, what happened?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, what we understand is that this e-mail came to light -- the family`s former spokesperson, Larry Garrison, said that he confronted her about giving the wrong hairbrush to investigators on July 21, which would have been about a week after we all found out that Caylee was missing, and that that was her answer, that she never lied, she just simply gave a different brush that was used, apparently, not only by Caylee, as they had asked. What we have been told is that if you withhold evidence that an officer is asking for in an official capacity, it could be obstruction of justice. But of course, authorities have discretion in these case.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. Mike, explain why it is so crucial, was so crucial, that the FBI have a known sample -- a known sample -- of little Caylee`s hair.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, when you`re comparing DNA, mitochondrial DNA, Nancy, it`s very important you have this. And not only obstruction of justice, if, in fact, an FBI officer, an FBI agent asked her for that and she gave it to him or her and said, Yes, this is the brush of my granddaughter, and it wasn`t, then also, she could be charged with lying to a federal officer.

GRACE: And unleash the lawyers, Susan Moss, Ray Giudice, Greg McKeithen. Susan Moss, it doesn`t have to be verbal. It doesn`t have to be expressly stated, This is little Caylee`s hairbrush. If they say, Can you give me Caylee`s hairbrush, and you come out and hand them a hairbrush, what does that say?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely. It`s called a verbal act. And by giving a hairbrush you know is somebody else`s hairbrush, she`s committed. Her credibility is gone.

GRACE: What about it, Ray?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Sue and Mike are right. I mean, you don`t have to actually lie, but if you just fail to do what`s asked of you on a federal investigation, especially, that can be obstruction. I will say, they still have to show intent.

GRACE: Wait a minute. Let me the get this straight, Ray. Let me the get this straight, Ray.

GIUDICE: Yes.

GRACE: So the feds say, Give me the hairbrush. If they don`t have a subpoena, do you have to give them the hairbrush?

GIUDICE: Yes, well, the question is -- has to be specific. Give us Caylee`s hairbrush, the one that she uses. If the question is...

GRACE: If they don`t have a warrant for that...

GIUDICE: No. You cannot -- yes. The answer is yes. They don`t need a warrant. It`s a federal investigation through a state investigation, and she has to be honest with them.

GRACE: What about it, Greg McKeithen?

GREG MCKEITHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree she has to be honest, but remember, we must examine the totality of the circumstances here and find out whether there was any criminal intent here. Perhaps this was just an honest mistake, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, let`s go back over the e-mail. I`ve got the e-mail right here. Kathi Belich, we`ll figure out where this e-mail came from. And did the former spokesperson really send it? I don`t know. She says, "I never lied, I just never went to my bathroom to get the hairbrush that I used only for Caylee."

All right. To Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist. What do you think?

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, there`s consciousness of guilt. She said, "I never lied." And she said...

GRACE: But...

SAUNDERS: ... but I never went where they asked me to go and do. So she heard what they asked her to do, and her behavior was contrary to it.

GRACE: Back to Mark Williams. Everybody, you know Mark from WNDB. What I want to reiterate is the significance of little Caylee`s hair. Hair was found where, Mark Williams?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Hair was found in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s Pontiac Sunbird by investigators, and they sent that off to the FBI lab. And it came back with -- they said, yes, this came from human, from a human, and it had that so-called death band on the bottom of it, the discoloration of the bottom of the roots.

GRACE: In fact -- to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice, on the Anthony defense team -- hair that is from a deceased person has what we have called a death ring, a death band. Explain.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, it`s actually, Nancy, an accumulation of air pockets, microscopic air pockets, very close to the root end of the hair. Under the microscope, it looks like a dark band. Sometimes it looks brownish, sometimes blackish. Sometimes it`s a little lighter than in other hairs. And this generally forms when you have a scalp that is in the process of decaying.

GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, in court today. Drew, I want to go back to the possibility that grandmother Cindy Anthony intentionally tried to trick the FBI. What are you hearing? I`m going to Drew Petrimoulx. Are you with me?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WBDO: I`m with you, Nancy. It had to do with this brush that she allegedly gave over to investigators, and you know, there was an e-mail saying that while she didn`t give the -- the brush -- excuse me -- that would have had the hair that Caylee had, that she gave a brush that maybe had Caylee and Casey`s hair on it.

GRACE: Everybody, as we go to break, program note. This Thursday night, a special NANCY GRACE INVESTIGATES, an in-depth look at the critical first 24 hours after little Caylee goes missing, then -- reported missing. Then Friday, the critical first 30 days of the Caylee Anthony investigation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cindy Anthony tries to give the appearance she`s cooperating with investigators, but Channel 9 has learned she and her husband, George, have been stalling for weeks in answering detectives` follow-up questions. Today, this e-mail surfaced. It appears that the Anthonys` former spokesman, Larry Garrison, says he confronted Cindy by e- mail about why she gave Casey`s hairbrush instead of Caylee`s hairbrush to investigators who wanted a DNA sample. He says Cindy`s e-mail response was this. Quote, "I never lied, I just never went to my bathroom to get the hairbrush that I used only for Caylee."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Is grandmother Cindy now facing a possible charge of obstruction of justice? According to reports that are just surfacing as we go to air, the FBI instructs grandmother Cindy Anthony to go in and bring out little Caylee`s hairbrush, instead she brings out a brush that was shared with tot mom Casey Anthony. And what we know, or what we believe the results are, is that the hair found in the trunk where there was human decomposition is not matched only to little Caylee.

To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky. Your understanding of the match on that hair is that it matches to whom?

KOBILINSKY: Well, it matches to somebody who was maternally related to Cindy. That includes Cindy, of course, and Casey and Caylee, as well as Lee. But it can also match to roughly 2 percent of the Caucasian population, as well. Remember, there`s microscopic examination and there`s mitochondrial examination. And looking microscopically at this pseudo- exemplar from the brush, one could distinguish the three. On the other hand, with mitochondrial DNA, they`re all the same.

GRACE: Dr. Kobilinsky, mitochondrial DNA has been used for decades by our government to identify our soldiers overseas. And to my knowledge, there has never been a mistake in that match-up using only mitochondrial DNA. So let`s not cast aspersions on the use of mitochondrial DNA, which was not the question I asked you. I asked you specifically about the car (SIC) in the Pontiac belonging to tot mom. Now, let me ask you this, Dr. Kobilinsky...

KOBILINSKY: Yes?

GRACE: ... if the hair that was given to the FBI was, in fact, tot mom Casey Anthony`s, of course we`re not going to get a positive match to Caylee. If we were given a Caylee hair from the brush, isn`t it more likely we would get a match to Caylee, if, in fact, that was her hair in the trunk?

KOBILINSKY: You`d get a mitochondrial DNA match whether it was Caylee or Casey`s hair.

GRACE: What if there was a root?

KOBILINSKY: Well, if there was a root, that`s a whole other story now.

GRACE: Well, what if?

KOBILINSKY: The root...

GRACE: What if there was a root? Wouldn`t you get nuclear DNA match?

KOBILINSKY: OK. You can get a nuclear DNA profile if there is sufficient tissue in the root.

GRACE: Thank you, Dr. Kobilinsky.

Out to the lines. Tanya in Canada. Hi, Tanya.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.

GRACE: Thank you, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Has Casey`s parents visited her in jail recently? And if not, why?

GRACE: The answer to that is no. Out to Mark Williams with WNDB. In fact, since the formal charges came down, has there been a single visit from the family?

WILLIAMS: No, not from the family at all, Nancy. Lee has been absent. George and Cindy have been absent. The only visitors that she`s getting are late-night visits from attorneys.

GRACE: I want to go back to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky. I`m very disturbed about those allegations. Right now, they are just allegations founded upon an e-mail, which I`ve got right here, an e-mail from a former spokesperson, apparently, of the Anthonys, back and forth between him and Cindy Anthony, talking about her not giving the correct brush to the FBI.

KOBILINSKY: Right.

GRACE: Dr. Kobilinsky, you are one of only three witnesses listed for the defense. You are clearly, and without a doubt, a renowned expert in your field. When, if at all, are you going to go and examine, for instance, this hair?

KOBILINSKY: Well, you know, examining the hair is not a problem, and I would be more than happy to go when I`m called to do that.

GRACE: When?

KOBILINSKY: But let me also...

GRACE: When?

KOBILINSKY: It hasn`t been decided. But what you were talking about with the root is just -- doesn`t make any sense because there is no root. If there was a root, you would have seen the nuclear DNA testing, along with statistics. You can be pretty sure, Nancy, that there is no root on that hair.

GRACE: How do you know, if you haven`t seen it? And my question is, you are an expert for the defense. Why haven`t they taken you to see the hair?

KOBILINSKY: Well, that`s up to Mr. Baez. When he wants me to look at the hair, I will do that.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. I want to go back to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Everybody, a bombshell tonight. Are there going to be obstruction of justice charges lodged against grandmother Cindy Anthony? She`s the one that kicked off this entire investigation. She`s the one that called police. She`s the one that was looking for little Caylee. Now we learn, based on these e-mails, did she intentionally try to mislead the FBI?

Kathi, where do these e-mails come from?

BELICH: Well, I`m not going to say where we got it. We got it from a source, a reliable source. We have tried to talked to Cindy Anthony about this. She`s not responded to our e-mail or our text messages. We`ve tried to speak with Larry Garrison about this, as well, and he`s not really responded to our questions about the e-mail. But we did get it from a reliable source, and we know that the FBI is investigating this. Larry Garrison said in his e-mail that he had reported this to the authorities, but we have yet to find anyone involved in the investigation who knew anything about this.

GRACE: Who is Larry? Who is Larry?

BELICH: Larry Garrison is the Los Angeles actor/author that served for a while for free as the Anthonys` spokesperson. You may remember...

GRACE: Right.

BELICH: ... a week or two ago, there was a falling out. He says the falling out actually is over this hairbrush issue.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California, that spent time within the Anthony home when bond was first made. Leonard, what do you make of this development? You know all of them better than any of us.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Let me add fuel to the fire. Today, when I`m sitting there talking to Tracy about this development, she says, You know, that brings to mind something else. One day, Cindy walked in there and said, You know, when the FBI asked me for her toothbrush, I should have given them the brush that I use to brush the dog`s teeth. And Tracy says that George just about went into heart arrest, you know, like, Oh, my God, don`t be saying things like that. Now, I suggested that Tracy call the FBI first thing in the morning as a result of this development jogging her mind.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: I think she`s being coached to a point by Mr. Baez because his first inclination is to take care of her, but at the expense of my granddaughter. We`ve had that discussion with him. And would I have hired this guy? No, I would not have. He`s not our attorney. My daughter hired this guy, saying she could pay him. I don`t know how she`s going to pay him. She don`t work. She doesn`t have any money that I know of, unless she has something hidden somewhere that I don`t know about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Did Cindy Anthony lie for her daughter? Does it -- is it tantamount to a lie? According to reports that have just surfaced, the FBI asked for little Caylee`s hairbrush to make a DNA match to hair from a deceased person found in the trunk. She gives a different brush.

Out to the lines. Gina, California. Hi, Gina.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, thank you for -- I`d like to thank you for honoring our troops...

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... because we can pray -- all of us can pray for the families because of you.

GRACE: We certainly can.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I just -- I appreciate that so much. My question is, the video where Caylee is sitting on what appears to be maybe her great-grandpa`s lap, I`m not sure...

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She -- you guys had a little flash, a picture of it just a few minutes ago. Her eyes and the way she clings to him and the way she -- her eyes look at somebody, like she`s afraid, it -- I see fear in her eyes. And I have a 4-and-a-half-year-old granddaughter and...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you convinced -- and based on what you know as a law enforcement officer with your background, are convinced in any way that the maggots were solely caused by the pizza or do you think that there`s a distinct odor that you recognized that day that was in the car?

And you don`t have to answer if you don`t want to but I`m just -- I`m putting it out there based on what I know and I`m asking you your opinion.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: That distinct odor that`s something you never forget. That distinct odor I believe something was placed in the back of that trunk. I don`t want to believe it was my granddaughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understand that.

G. ANTHONY: I don`t want to believe it`s -- any other kind of -- any other thing but that pizza. I certainly try to believe at this moment. But I believe inside my heart I feel it`s not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That it`s not your granddaughter?

G. ANTHONY: Let`s put it this way. I`m hoping it`s not -- I want to believe it`s not. I mean I`m trying to believe it`s not, but then again, like I said, and you guys know, once you`ve smelled that smell you just -- you never get over it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: And today the case was back in court. The defense battling tooth and nail to avoid a gag order. You know, very typically, the shoe is on the other foot, the defense wants a gag order. I find this highly unusual.

Drew Petrimoulx, what happened in court, in a nutshell?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: It was a big argument basically over who`s tainting the jury pool. The state attorney`s office says Jose Baez and Dr. Kobilinsky via his appearances on your show and other cable shows are basically tainting the pool by letting out information in this case.

Jose Baez took an extreme offense to that, saying that it`s the state attorney`s office who has tainted the pool by releasing information about the DNA, about the hair samples, about the chloroform in the car, and you know, call them the 800-pound elephant in the room, the -- kettle calling the pot black, because they were the ones that were actually the ones tainting the jury pool.

GRACE: Drew, it`s the pot calls the kettle black, FYI.

PETRIMOULX: Thank you, Nancy.

GRACE: OK. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Susan Moss, Ray Giudice, Greg McKeithen.

Ray Giudice, what do you think about the defense fighting a gag order? It`s usually the defense demanding a gag order.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And that`s right, and I think Mr. Baez somehow believes that he can turn the tide on this bad publicity over the next month or two before trial.

After today`s story about the hairbrush and maybe now the toothbrush, I submit he is wrong and he ought to cut his losses and agree to the gag order.

GRACE: And to Susan Moss, in Florida, they`ve got a very, very liberal sunshine act, which means pretty much everything becomes public. All of these documents and recordings were going to be made public anyway.

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: That`s right. Anyone could get access to these documents. I mean a gag order? Even Helen Keller has heard of this story.

GRACE: Long story short, though, when it comes down to it, it`s not the state leaking this. It is made public because of the -- sunshine in government act, Sue.

MOSS: That`s exactly right. So these documents are coming out sooner or later, and you know, you might as well have them out now.

GRACE: You know, Greg McKeithen, before you came a defense attorney, you and I practiced prosecution in the same office, and generally speaking, our rule was, never speak about a case to the press.

Whenever I was asked a question, I would uniformly say, I`m sure that our jury will reach the right verdict. Boom. End of story.

GREG MCKEITHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s correct, Nancy. That`s always the policy. That was my policy when I left the D.A.`s office. You don`t want to give the defense any grounds, raise any issues about any pretrial comments made by you as a prosecutor. So that was off limits.

GRACE: And Mike Brooks, correct me if I`m wrong, but I have not heard the prosecution on the morning talk shows talking about their cases the way I have the defense.

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: I haven`t heard the prosecution, Nancy. I haven`t heard the FBI, I haven`t heard anybody talking about their case. None whatsoever.

GRACE: And speaking about the FBI, what can you tell me about an FBI questionnaire, Mike Brooks?

BROOKS: Well, it`s a questionnaire, Nancy, that they`re giving everyone to try to get a barometer, if you will, of where they`re coming from and what their thought processes are, and it helps them to determine what the line of questioning to their next possible witness could be.

And you know, it gives them just a good baseline on what these people say, and it`s given to each one of them. I mean we saw what Cindy`s was and what George`s was, and they were quite different.

GRACE: In what way?

BROOKS: Well, apparently, you know, she is trying to basically soften Casey, making her look like, you know, she is a, you know, the ideal mother and this kind of thing. Where George has been saying, well, as you know, she`s stealing from everybody, basically.

GRACE: Even out of her own kid`s piggy bank.

BROOKS: Absolutely.

GRACE: Let`s go back to Gina in California.

Gina, your question was about that photo of little Caylee sitting in her great grandfather`s lap, you thought she looked afraid?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, because I have a granddaughter who`s 4, and their eyes show everything.

GRACE: We`re pulling up that photo right now.

Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, what do you think? Look.

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it`s hard to tell with little ones, because when they`re tired, their eyes can glaze over, and their blink rate goes down. But Gina may be right. She may be afraid, maybe the mother is taking the picture.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Cindy in Florida, hi, Cindy. I think I`ve got Cindy. Cindy, are you there?

Let`s go to John in Missouri. Hi, John. Hello?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m here.

GRACE: Hold on. Our satellite is down. Hold on just a moment. We`ll go straight back to the callers.

To Mark Williams with WNDB News Talk 1150, bottom line in court today, we talked about a gag order. Why was the tot mom a no-show in court?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, she didn`t have to be in court today. And that was a question that was raised yesterday. And, of course, Orange County doesn`t talk about the transportation of high priority prisoners.

She was -- there was really no reason for her to be in court. Her next court appearance is going to be December 11th, when she has a pretrial hearing in an Orange County courtroom, just tantamount to the start of her trial on January 5th, Nancy.

GRACE: And today, more news. The Anthony family has their own press conference in which they blast police. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I don`t care what it takes. Our goal is, we`re going to bring Caylee Marie back home. The last breath that I take, I`m going to continue to look for her. And I feel very confident, every day, that we are getting closer and closer to finding her, because I think, and maybe it`s because of the negative activity, and maybe the sheriff`s department gave us a blessing in disguise by saying case closed, Caylee is dead that people are letting their guard down, that finally they`re showing her out in public again in Orlando.

So I`m going to take that, and I`m going to continue to look for her.

Here is a little girl that this tipster said was Caylee. And she was kicking the backseat, the back of a chair, and saying, "You`re not my mama, I want my mama." And no one questioned whether or not that little girl belonged with the people in the airplane. No one except the tipster.

And that`s the sad thing because they would have had to have heard that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who has spent time with the Anthonys, do you really believe that George and Cindy think Caylee is alive?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, SEARCHING FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: No. They -- they displayed the fact that they knew she wasn`t alive, even while we were there. And they were trying to come up with answers to the results from the Tennessee labs and the FBI labs.

Now, you could see Cindy really, really grasping for some kind of a result. Possibly prior to that, there was some thought that they wanted to believe Casey, but subsequent to that, you could really, really tell that Cindy wasn`t just believing it anymore, but she had to put up a front.

Also, in the time that Casey was with Tracy by herself, there was some very guarded moments there where Cindy herself would break down and cry. And these are times that were a window into Cindy`s soul, and her knowing that there was something definitely wrong with her granddaughter.

There was another time when we ran into a gentleman that told us that George was very upset, and was blaming Tracy for having used the family computer. And we asked Tracy, why did you use the family computer,. she says, I never did. And I said, well, why is George putting out that story?

And we came to the assumption that there was something on the family computer that shouldn`t have been there, and they`re going to blame it down the road on Tracy.

GRACE: To Ray Giudice, I`m not saying that I agree that the Anthonys believe little Caylee is dead. But if they do believe that, is this a charade to make the jury believe Caylee is still alive?

GIUDICE: Nancy, you know, I truly believe that these are very good grandparents who are confronted with the sad fact that their granddaughter is probably dead and that their daughter is going to serve the rest of her life in prison.

And I know you don`t like this story about no game book, but no game plan, but I don`t know how anybody deals with that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

C. ANTHONY: All of the tips that we have received, pretty much all of them have been out of state. So we were dealing not only -- with the Orange County Sheriff`s Department are not the lead investigation -- investigators.

What they do is they authorize the out of state authorities to follow up. And that`s where we`re hitting that end, is there is no authority, there is no follow-up given to them. We have heard not only frustration from the tipsters, but also frustration from other law enforcement agencies as we did when we went to Gainesville a few weeks ago.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It started like any other day for 23-year-old Nadia Kersh. She left her job at the food market around 1:00 to pick up her son from daycare. But Nadia never made it.

The next day, Nadia`s abandoned car found in West Birmingham, Alabama. Her purse found on railroad tracks nearby. Railroad tracks in a wooded area. Police say they had someone in custody, but had to release them due to lack of evidence.

Police need your help in solving what happened to Nadia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Paul Finebaum with WJOX. Paul, what happened?

PAUL FINEBAUM, TALK SHOW HOST, WJOX, COVERING STORY: It`s a good question, Nancy. And we still don`t have any answers, or we know that she left her job at Tria market which is a posh food store in Homewood right outside of Birmingham about 1:00 to pick up her son at daycare, but never made it.

GRACE: How far was that from daycare?

FINEBAUM: About a mile away. And what`s interesting is -- obviously, what the police find so interesting is that her car was found about 15 minutes away, nowhere near there. It was found on the west side of Birmingham, near Elmwood Cemetery, which is interestingly where the famous Alabama football coach Paul Brian is buried.

Her purse was -- her car was found near a railroad tracks, and the purse was found on the railroad tracks.

GRACE: Joining me right now is a very special guest. It is Nadia`s mother, Nancy Kersh.

Thank you for being with us, Miss Kersh. Miss Kersh, what do you -- what are police telling you about her disappearance?

NANCY KERSH, MOTHER OF MISSING MOM NADIA KERSH: Well, we know that the case has turned from a missing person case to a criminal investigation at this point. Her car was found in West Birmingham. It was actually found in an isolated alley.

The purse was found on railroad tracks, in a very deep area that was overgrown. When I went to the bridge, the overpass, to look down below, you couldn`t see it. You really had to go under the underpass and see the area where the purse lay. So it`s a miracle that they found it.

I know that the -- that her phone was in her purse, and so the police have been able to track the individuals or certainly the phone`s whereabouts in West Birmingham, and actually in East Birmingham.

They do have a prime suspect. He is a man from Irondale, is what I know. And I know that they`re building a case.

GRACE: Tell me about this prime suspect, as you refer to him, Miss Kersh. Did he know her?

KERSH: I understand he was an acquaintance of hers.

GRACE: Now tell me, where did she work, Miss Kersh?

KERSH: She worked in Tria market. It`s sort of an upscale health food store.

GRACE: To Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, joining us out of New York, anyone could have come in and out as a customer.

SAUNDERS: Yes, they could have, Nancy. But we know that fully a third, if not a little bit more, of women who are homicide victims are killed by their significant others, their partners, their boyfriends, their husbands.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 8:00, I had to call Homewood, I called DHR and I called Homewood. They came out and he sent one of his guys over to check the house and look for the car and see some signs of him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Helen Wilson is the director of ABC Daycare, where 23-year-old Nadia Kersh took her 1-year-old son Christopher every day. That`s why Wilson had to call police when Nadia didn`t pick him up.

According to Nadia`s boss at Homewood`s Tria market, Nadia left work for lunch at 1:00 and didn`t come back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She did miss work, so we knew something was up then, and then -- but when we found out that she didn`t go to get her son, then we knew something was terribly wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Susan Moss, child advocate, that must have been incredibly confusing for the little boy for his mom not to come back.

MOSS: Well, absolutely. And although you certainly don`t want to lie to a child, and you -- you really have to be very soft in talking about where his mommy is, because I`m sure even a 1-year-old is looking around and noticing something different.

GRACE: To Nadia`s mother, Nancy Kersh, joining us tonight out of Montgomery, where is the little boy?

KERSH: The little boy is with a good friend of Nadia`s, and she is taking very good care of him. She has a very close relationship with our grandson, and he is comfortable with her, happy with her. And we just feel it`s important for him to stay there for now.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, what should police be doing right now?

BROOKS: Well, Nancy, you know, initially they should have been going through, looking at any surveillance video of maybe the route that she would take to and from the daycare center, from her place of work. You know there was some surveillance, apparently, in a parking garage that showed her, but it looked like she was by herself, you know, checking her ATM card, had there been any activity on there.

I`m glad to hear from her mother that, apparently, they were able to use the cell phone that was in the purse to try to trace this person, this person they`re looking at right now, this chief suspect, as they call it, but there`s a lot of other things now that they need to do, talking to people close to her, friends and associates.

Again, just like any other investigation we always talk about, Nancy, you want to make sure that the people close to her are just taken out of the case, so they can focus her case on a good suspect.

GRACE: To Paul Finebaum with WJOX -- Paul, what can you tell us about this person of interest?

FINEBAUM: Well, the person of interest -- there are a couple -- there are three persons of interest right now, Nancy. One has been retained but no charges are filed. Another, of course, is reportedly her ex-boyfriend. They apparently dated a year-and-a-half, and have broken up, and I`m sure the mother could probably add more to that than I could.

GRACE: What about it, Miss Kersh?

KERSH: Well, I can tell you that the Homewood Police Department, with whom I`ve been in contact with on a daily basis has told me today that the ex-boyfriend has been cleared as a suspect.

GRACE: To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, joining us out of the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, I guess at this juncture you`d have to treat the car as the only crime scene you`ve got, really. What would you do?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: I think you`re right about the car but let me also redirect your attention to that purse.

GRACE: OK.

KOBILINSKY: That purse may have latent fingerprints or DNA. It may have been thrown by the assailant. And that could be a very key to tying this person of interest or suspect directly to the event.

GRACE: Kobi, you`re absolutely correct about that. Go ahead.

KOBILINSKY: Yes, I think the car certainly is another point where clearly an assailant was in that car. And there may, again, be latent precipitations. There may be DNA on the steering wheel, on the door handle. There are a lot of things that police should be doing now, and they have to act quickly.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Scores of volunteer searchers, police still haven`t located 23-year-old Nadia Kersh, the mother of a 1-year-old, left work to pick up her son at daycare but never arrived.

Police recovered Nadia`s car abandoned. Nadia`s purse found on nearby railroad tracks. Investigators taking forensic samples, even asking NASA for satellite images in an attempt to find mom Nadia Kersh.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It started like any other day for 23-year-old Nadia Kersh. She left her job around 1:00 to pick up her son from daycare. But Nadia never made it. The next day Nadia`s abandoned car found in West Birmingham, Alabama, her purse found on railroad tracks nearby. Railroad tracks in a wooded area.

Police say they had someone in custody but had to release them due to lack of evidence. Police need your help in solving what happened to Nadia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to the lines, Sheeba in Illinois, hi, Sheeba.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, darling. I appreciate everything you do. Like the other lady, the tribute to the soldiers. That`s just something that`s wonderful.

I wanted to ask your psychologist or psychiatrist, is this something more progressive than we`ve seen in earlier times? I`m 53. I never heard of anybody disappearing when I was growing up.

GRACE: What about it, Dr. Saunders?

SAUNDERS: I don`t know that we have any reliable reporting. I think that these kinds of crimes have been happening for a long time and have flown under the radar, ma`am.

GRACE: Very quickly to Mike Brooks -- Mike, I do believe that this, these type of crimes are on the increase.

BROOKS: You know, it seems that they are on the increase, Nancy. It seems that way and you know with the technology that we have now in the media, all the affiliates at CNN has now, I think there`s more.

GRACE: Yes, we hear about it more, too.

BROOKS: We hear about it more, too, especially with over 800 affiliates that CNN has, Nancy. You know it -- I mean, it just comes to the forefront especially with stories like this, you know, that -- especially around the holiday season.

GRACE: Everybody, the tip line is 205-332-6262. There`s a $35,000 reward.

Let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Frank Gasper, 25, Merced, California, killed Iraq. On a fourth tour. Awarded three commendation medals, National Defense Service medals, loved muscle cars, pickups and four-wheeling.

Dreamed of being a Green Beret and DEA agent. Favorite song, "My Infinite Love" by George Strait, a song he used on a video tribute to his family and friends should he lose his life in Iraq. Leaves behind mom Anita, sister Victoria, widow Brianna.

Frank Gasper, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END


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« Reply #46 on: November 27, 2008, 08:31:30 AM »

NANCY GRACE

More Anthony Family Computer Searches Released

Aired November 26, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MIKE BROOKS, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl named Caylee. Over 700 pages of stunning new documents just released. And there are some major bombshells. Not only were there computer searches for chloroform in the week before Caylee goes missing, but we learn searches for ``neck-breaking,`` ``shovel,`` and key ingredients to make chloroform also discovered on the Anthonys` computer.
They Anthonys blame rotting pizza for the smell of death in mom Casey`s car, but new evidence reveals there was no pizza at all, just an empty box. And shocking new details about the slacks found in mom Casey`s abandoned car, plus more of Casey Anthony`s text messages surface. This time, she tells her live-in boyfriend she`s, quote, "the worst mother and hates myself" -- "and I hate myself" and says if cops don`t find Caylee, she will end up in jail. And we finally hear a description of the so- called nanny mom Casey claims kidnapped her little girl. But tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey, do you still think you`re an unfit mother?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Over 700 pages of new documents have been released from the state attorney`s office. Not only did someone on the Anthony family computer search how to make chloroform, but they also searched "neck-breaking" and "making weapons out of household products."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: (INAUDIBLE) I made the greatest mistake that I ever could have made as a parent.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also in the documents are text messages from tot mom Casey Anthony to boyfriend Tony Lazzaro, where she says she is the dumbest person and the worst mother.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: My mom flat out told me yesterday she would never be able to forgive me, and I even told her I`m never going to be able to forgive myself. Every day I`ve been beating myself up about this. Every single day.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also breaking today, an Orange County judge has denied a request for a gag order, which the state says was necessary to keep a fair and impartial jury.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROOKS: Good evening. I`m Mike Brooks, in for Nancy Grace. Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a 3-year-old girl named Caylee. Hundreds of bombshell documents just released.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: The (DELETED) detectives told (DELETED) (DELETED) They got all of their information from me, yet at the same time, they`re twisting stuff. They`re -- they`re already said they`re going to pin this on me if they don`t find Caylee.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Documents just released by the state show someone on the Anthony family computer was searching "neck-breaking" and how to make chloroform. Text messages from the tot mom to Tony Lazzaro show what she was going through the day she was arrested, telling Lazzaro she was the dumbest person and the worst mother.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: She said, I`ve stolen money from you, you know, I`ve been untrustworthy, you know, and she goes, And maybe I have been a bad mother and a daughter and sister.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The documents were just made public hours ago, while the judge in this case has denied the state`s motion for a gag order on all parties involved.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: She opened up to me and said, Mom has thrown it in my face many times before that I`m an unfit mother. And you know, maybe she`s right, maybe I am.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: The biggest mistake was not calling you guys right off the bat. I understand all of that. It`s the biggest slap in the face, and I did that to myself. But the worst is I`ve done this to my daughter by allowing her to still be with someone else.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BROOKS: Good evening. I`m Mike Brooks, in for Nancy Grace. Hundreds -- and I`m talking hundreds -- of pages just released, and some of these things you will not believe. I want to go right out to Mark Williams, news director at WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, what`s all of these hundreds and hundreds of pages? This is some unbelievable stuff.

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Mike, this is not the first goat (ph) rope (ph) you`ve been to.

(LAUGHTER)

WILLIAMS: Seven hundred pages of documents released today by the state`s attorney`s office. They reveal some shocking searches on the Anthony home computer, including Google searches of words such as "chloroform," "how to make chloroform," "weapons out of household products" and the most disturbing of all, "neck-breaking." Now, there have been separate searches on Wikipedia. Whoever`s been on this computer has been a busy person. They reveal searches for words such as "acetone," "shovel" "inhalation" and "death."

Now, one note of interest, Mike, is the fact that we don`t know who was on this computer. The documents don`t show that. But one thing they did do is they went back and checked Cindy Anthony`s time card...

BROOKS: Right.

WILLIAMS: ... at work. She was working at the time this computer was accessed on line. So your guess is as good as mine.

BROOKS: OK, I want to go out to Kathi Belich, reporter for CNN affiliate WFTV. Kathi, who else in that house had access to that computer?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, it could have been George. The documents show George was not working at that time. Or it could have been Casey. Obviously, prosecutors believe it was Casey. That`s why they`re using this as evidence. That`s why it`s become public at this point. And you know, it`s important to note, too, that this was back in March. This was three months before Caylee had disappeared. And at the same time, Casey was also looking on line for missing children Web sites.

BROOKS: What kind of Web sites was she looking for for missing children?

BELICH: She was looking at several missing children Web sites. And you know, there was speculation that she was trying to figure out the circumstances under which other children had disappeared. And you couple that with this information and you wonder, you know, what she was looking at. Our legal analyst says it could go to motive and premeditation here.

BROOKS: Yes. I have to agree with you on that. You know, we talk about computers all the time. And I`m not a computer -- I don`t know that much about computers. I know how to turn it on. I know how to make it print.

But joining us by phone tonight from Raleigh, North Carolina, is Ben Levitan. He is a computer and telecommunications expert. Ben, thanks for joining us.

BEN LEVITAN, COMPUTER AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT: Thank you, Mike.

BROOKS: Now, help us break this down, would you? They have all this information from the computers. Now, is it possible to tell who signed on, who looked up these things, just from the time of day? I mean, what do they have to do when they -- from the time this person, whoever is using the computer -- it could be George. It could be Casey. We know the mother wasn`t home. You know, could it have been Lee? Tell us how they go about starting an investigation into who`s using a computer?

LEVITAN: Well, Mike, like you said, this case is full of circumstantial evidence. The fact that someone looked up these Web searches does not make them guilty of anything. So we...

BROOKS: No, no, but we`ve got -- we`ve got -- we`ve got, you know, a girl -- a little girl missing.

LEVITAN: Yes.

BROOKS: You know, everybody -- the evidence points that she`s -- she`s dead. And you know, we`ve got these things they`re looking up about neck-breaking, about chloroform, acetone, all these things. Now, how can we find out who signed on to the computer or maybe who had access to this?

LEVITAN: Well, we can`t tell who signed on, but we do know that whoever was using the computer was looking up this information and was doing it in a kind of casual manner. They were not afraid of being caught at it because if someone -- from what I`ve seen, most of the people in the Anthony family are very intelligent. And if they were concerned about being caught, they would have erased all this what we call computer history.

BROOKS: But can you really ever erase...

(CROSSTALK)

BROOKS: But can you ever even erase -- if you just hit delete and you erase it, you put it in trash and it`s gone, can computer experts retrieve that from the hard drive?

LEVITAN: Well, now, here`s how it works with a browser. Now, there`s different levels of technical capability...

BROOKS: Right.

LEVITAN: ... but you yourself can just -- on your own computer, you can see your own history. There`s a button that says "history."

BROOKS: Right.

LEVITAN: And it keeps a list of all of the Internet sites you`ve gone to in the past six months.

BROOKS: But if you delete that -- if I put "delete history," does that delete the history, or can they retrieve that from the hard drive?

LEVITAN: Well, now, that will delete the history, but it will be still embedded on the hard drive until it`s written over.

BROOKS: Interesting.

LEVITAN: OK? However, that`s not the only place. The second place is there something called temporary -- Internet temporary files. And very often -- every Web page has an expiration date. So if you download a page that has an expiration date of, say, next year, because the writer doesn`t anticipate...

BROOKS: Gotcha. Right.

LEVITAN: ... changing that page, that page will be stored right on your computer, so next time you request it, it will just pop up so it doesn`t clog the Internet.

BROOKS: Interesting. Does it also tell you how long they spent on this particular page? Is there kind of a history like that, too?

LEVITAN: Well, you can find that out, too, just by telling when the next access was. There`s only two conditions. You`re either going -- there`s certain conditions. When you`re looking at a page -- well, you could have brought up the page and walked away from the computer.

BROOKS: Gotcha.

LEVITAN: The only way we know is when the next page was accessed or the browser was closed.

BROOKS: Gotcha. Rosie (ph)...

LEVITAN: That`s the only thing we can tell.

BROOKS: Rosie, let`s take a look at some of those Web sites that they were accessing. I saw a couple in there that were kind of interesting, you know, that whoever at this house -- we have Toursex, I mean, missing kids, Sexsearch.com, Sweetsexy, World4U, Sexy -- I mean, whoever -- you know, why they were doing -- then there`s one dealing with escorts, Philadelphia escorts. It`s just -- it`s just a little strange.

I want to go out to our producer, Natisha Lance. She`s a producer for the Nancy Grace show. Natisha, how many computers did they seize from that house?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, they have the home computer, which they seized, and they also have the laptop, which they seized, as well, which Casey was carrying around and claiming that it was her work computer. This was left over at Tony Lazzaro`s apartment when Cindy came to get her from the apartment. Lee Anthony went back to the apartment and got it, and police were able to go back later and get that laptop.

BROOKS: So they have both the laptop and the home computer.

LANCE: That`s correct.

BROOKS: Great. Folks, we`re taking your calls live. I want to go out now to Lisa in Missouri. Lisa, thanks for calling.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thanks, Mike, for taking my call.

BROOKS: Yes, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question has to do with the evidence that Cindy -- the hairbrush that Cindy had given the FBI, knowing that it was not the correct brush. And I also want to ask about the jeans that she had taken out of the trunk of Casey`s car and washed. With her being a nurse, I have to wonder if she hasn`t known from the very beginning and has been more concerned with protecting Casey by getting rid of that evidence, as opposed to finding Caylee.

BROOKS: Well, you know, that`s a good question because, you know, right from the very beginning, we hear from Cindy. And we`re going to talk about Cindy a little bit more after a break. But you know, we hear Cindy - - initially, she talks about, Oh, there was something dead in the car. And then she says, Well, no, it was pizza. Now, we now find out that it was not rotting pizza. There was no pizza in the box. It was an empty box.

And then the pants. She was supposed to turn some pants over, and the FBI kept asking for, but they -- she never cooperated. So then they had to go ahead and get a search warrant and go to the house and get the pants.

But as we go to break, a program note. Tomorrow night, tune in for a special Nancy Grace investigation as we go inside the critical first 24 hours in the Caylee Anthony case. Then on Friday, an in-depth look at the first 30 days of the Caylee Anthony investigation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony`s computer records just released this morning and show she Googled "chloroform" and also ingredients that could be used to make the potential deadly chloroform, peroxide, acetone and alcohol which could be found around the house, on the afternoon of Saint Patrick`s Day, March 17. The newly released records also show on March 21, she researched how to make chloroform, "self-defense," "household weapons," "neck-breaking" and "shovel."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks, in for Nancy Grace. Well, over 700 pages of documents released today. The staff has been going through it all day. There is some unbelievable things that you`re going to want to hear that`s in this.

But when our last caller, Lisa from Missouri, was asking about the pants -- I want to go out to forensic scientist -- noted forensic scientist Lawrence Kobilinsky here in New York. And he`s also -- he`s with the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, and also a consultant to the Casey Anthony defense team. Koby (ph), thanks for being with us.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Sure. Good evening.

BROOKS: Now, the pants that they got out of the house. Now, if she washed these pants, could there be any evidence still left in the pants?

KOBILINSKY: I think it`s highly unlikely, Mike. I think that if you`re using detergent -- whether or not you use bleach, it`s almost irrelevant. But when you go through a typical washing cycle, you can remove trace evidence. You can remove stains of all sorts. I mean, that`s what the detergent is meant to do. So I think whatever was there is gone.

BROOKS: But what about blood? You know, sometimes you can try to wash off blood from a wall, and then you can use, you know, certain chemicals, luminol, for instance, to try to bring it back up. Can you do that with material?

KOBILINSKY: Well, you can. Luminol is a very sensitive procedure, and we have other presumptive tests for blood even more sensitive. But despite all of that, you can wash out a blood stain, especially if it`s not an old stain. Older stains become very fixed in fabrics and they stay there a long time. It`s very hard to get rid of it. But a relatively fresh stain can easily be removed.

BROOKS: What`s the best type (ph) of DNA will stay in clothing? What DNA is the strongest that will stay in clothing the longest?

KOBILINSKY: DNA will remain on clothing for a very long time, as long as you don`t use bleach, as long as you don`t use detergent to get rid of it. It`s a very stable substance and not easily degraded, not easily destroyed. But you can remove it if you try.

BROOKS: Now, I want to go back out to Kathi Belich, reporter for CNN affiliate WFTV. Kathi, tell us what was the deal with the hairbrush that our caller was asking about.

BELICH: Well, we obtained an e-mail that shows that her -- the Anthony family`s former spokesperson, Larry Garrison, had confronted Cindy about giving investigators not Caylee`s exclusive hairbrush, but rather a hairbrush that belonged to Casey. And we also obtained -- Cindy`s response to that was that she didn`t lie to investigators, she just didn`t walk to her bathroom to get the hairbrush that was exclusively Caylee`s.

And we did get a response from her last night about that. She says -- she claims that she told investigators she did give them a brush that was used not only by Caylee but also by Casey. That is what she`s claiming. But we would know that investigators would want Caylee`s exclusive hairbrush for DNA tests.

BROOKS: Absolutely. And she says she didn`t lie, but you know, does this -- does this go to her credibility?

Let`s uncage the lawyers. Out of Atlanta, prosecutor Eleanor Dixon from Cobb (ph) County, and Renee Rockwell, also from Atlanta, noted defense attorney, along with Alan Ripka here in New York.

OK, gang. What -- her credibility is shot, don`t you think, Eleanor?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Yes, I do think it`s shot totally, Mike. And here`s the thing. While she may have been well-intentioned, I wonder, too, if she wasn`t trying to protect Casey from something because that`s not a mistake that you`d easily make. She knew what the investigators wanted.

BROOKS: Absolutely. Alan Ripka, you see possible obstruction of justice charges coming here, or lying to a federal officer?

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t think so. I think if she was really trying to protect somebody, she wouldn`t have given any hairbrushes at all. She would have said she didn`t have one handy or didn`t know where they were.

BROOKS: You know that they would go ahead and just get a search warrant.

RIPKA: Well, maybe she could have gotten rid of them by then. First of all, she did hand over a hairbrush that she claimed was used by both of them.

BROOKS: After the fact, though.

RIPKA: Well, she knew at that time they were going to get the evidence that they wanted. So if she wanted to hide it, she could have gotten rid of the hairbrushes, and she didn`t.

BROOKS: Renee, weigh in.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I want to say she shouldn`t have gotten rid of the hairbrushes because, let me tell you something, Mike, if she did something deceptive, if she lied, don`t think that the feds are just going to walk away from this. I don`t see it. And I disagree with you, Alan. I think that there could be some potential charges.

BROOKS: And you know, and we heard also in the interview with the FBI, you know, she was, like, Oh -- just said totally opposite of what George said.

ROCKWELL: Well -- is that to me?

BROOKS: Yes, Renee.

ROCKWELL: Well, you`re going to see these people on the stand again. And I think now I`ve just about figured out why George went before the grand jury. I think they probably were asking him, Since mama was at work, who was on that computer during the day? Was that you making those searches? They`re trying to narrow down what was going on with that computer while mom was at work.

BROOKS: And Eleanor, you know, I know it`s not admissible in court, but I have used the polygraph as an excellent investigative tool. You know, if they have nothing to hide, why not give a polygraph to George and Cindy and Lee?

DIXON: You`re right, Mike. And besides, sometimes it can be used in court, if both parties stipulate to it. So again, if they have nothing to hide, stipulate to the polygraph and go forward. I think George testified in front of the grand jury because maybe that Cindy wasn`t going to tell the whole truth.

BROOKS: Yes, I think that could possibly be the truth because, you know, she started doing the -- you know, the old -- the backstroke right from the very beginning when she -- she wanted her daughter locked up the day -- you know, the day she reported to police. And now, you know, she`s defending her. You know, and since -- I just -- we`re going to talk again more about Cindy Anthony.

But I want to go out to Leonard Padilla, noted bounty hunter. Leonard, thanks for joining us.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Thank you, Mike. Thank you for having me here. And let me go on record. I`ll take a polygraph any time anybody wants. I have no problem with it.

BROOKS: By the way, have you taken the polygraph that the FBI asked you about yet?

PADILLA: No, no. They -- I`ve talked to them several times. And I`m trying to get a free trip back to Orlando and take it back there. I don`t care where they set it up. I`ll take it any time, and I don`t need a lengthy notice.

But let me explain something to you. If I was doing traveling as part of my job around the country and I was anticipating maybe seeing somebody or a young lady or sexual encounters or anything like that, I certainly wouldn`t use my computer. I`d go down to my sister`s computer and use her computer to do these searches.

BROOKS: Yes.

PADILLA: So there`s a lot of things there that somebody else was using her computer also. I don`t know who it was. But a lot of that stuff on there is just definitely not Casey`s.

BROOKS: Now, what about -- we talked about this last night a little bit. What about your assistant, Tracy (ph)? Have they tried to say that she was using the computer?

PADILLA: There was a situation that developed when we were down there the second time in Orlando, where a gentleman that`s a friend of George`s came up and said that George had gotten upset at Tracy because she had used the computer in the house and he was very upset because she didn`t ask permission. Myself and Rob asked Tracy, Did you use the computer? She said, No, I had my laptop the whole time, never used the computer in the house. So we told her, Well, George is setting you up for something that he did on that computer, and he`s going to say you did it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t care if it`s a year from now. Someone says that they saw Caylee -- and we`re still seeing (INAUDIBLE) we`re looking for her. I am going to go and look for her if someone calls me and said, I`ve seen her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why didn`t you call prior to today?

CASEY ANTHONY: Fear of the unknown, fear of the potential of Caylee getting hurt, or not seeing my don`t go away again.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: No one can say or second guess what you`re going to do to protect your child when you fear for their safety.

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: Dad, she`s safe. She knows who has her daughter. She knows her daughter is safe.

CINDY ANTHONY: You know, we`ve got to be very mindful because anything we say not even thinking about it could be something that could put Caylee`s life in danger.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks, in for Nancy Grace. Well, 700 pages of documents released today, with some unbelievable information in there. Text messages -- we`re going to talk about that -- some e-mails from Cindy`s brother -- we`re going to talk about that.

But I want to go back out to Natisha Lance, producer for the NANCY GRACE show. Natisha, what was the sheet of paper that was found in the car?

LANCE: There was a sheet of paper that has Casey`s name on it, and she had written her name with Tony Lazzaro`s last name on it. So it seemed like, you know, they were in a new relationship, a young relationship, and she was writing "Casey Lazzaro" on the sheet of paper.

BROOKS: Yes, you know, I`ve got the sheet of paper right here, and it`s really strange -- Casey Lazzaro, Casey M. Lazzaro, Casey -- I mean, I -- and all different handwriting. I didn`t know what to make of that.

I want to go out to our criminal profiler, Pat Brown, joining us from Washington. Pat, what do you think of, you know, this sheet of paper with all this different writing on it?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, it sounds like a teenager, somebody who`s not very mature, as we did when we were kids in school, girls would sit there and write boys` names and, you know, match them up and pretend you were -- you know, that would be your married name. So I think she was fantasizing about her future.

I do want to point out one thing that Mr. Padilla said which I totally disagree with. He says because there were sex sites accessed on the computer, escort agencies, that this couldn`t possibly have been Casey`s. Maybe Casey`s looking for a new job as a hooker. She`s got to make money somehow.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New records show Casey Anthony was online on March 22nd, Googling neck-breaking, shovel, household weapons, self defense, and how to make chloroform. Four days earlier on Saint Patrick`s Day, she was researching the makings of chloroform, household items like peroxide, acetone and alcohol. Right around the time she was looking at missing children Web sites.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: How do you deal with what they`re saying about in the trunk of the car?

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots that stunk so bad. You know how hot it`s been.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But like almost every statement her daughter Casey has head, it`s just not true. There was no pizza in the trash bag in Casey`s trunk. Just an empty pizza box.

There were flies and maggots in the trunk, along with Caylee`s hair and it turns out that trash bag came from her boyfriend`s apartment, which even he doesn`t understand.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE BROOKS, GUEST HOST: I`m Mike Brooks in for Nancy Grace.

Well, let me see now. Flies, maggots, a pizza box. But no pizza. Sorry, Cindy, there was no pizza in that box. So what drew the maggots and the flies? We don`t know.

You know, earlier today, Cindy Anthony was on the "Today" show. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY: I said from day one that Caylee needs a voice and I`m her voice. If they had such a great case, they wouldn`t care about following up on leads. My only goal is finding my granddaughter.

I`m not worried about building some case against, you know, the prosecution to prove that, you know, a reasonable doubt. Either they have a case or they don`t. Bottom line is, Caylee is missing. And if there`s a tip out there, I`m going to follow up on it.

If they choose not to, that`s their prerogative. But they told me months ago that nothing is 100 percent. So if there`s 1 percent that she is still out there, I owe that to her, and I would think they would owe it to her, too. But if they choose not to, it will be on their hands when she comes home.

Something was decaying in there. And the forensic reports, they will reveal it. Right now, I`m not worried about that. You know, that was 15 days after the worst thing that ever happened to him in his life. His granddaughter is missing. His daughter is in jail. And he`s still in shock.

So, you know, we messed up this first date of when the last time we saw Caylee. We thought it was the 8th when actually it was the June 16th. So, unfortunately, when you`re going through a lot of stress, you know, you just -- your mind doesn`t work exactly the way, you know, you would normally want it to work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROOKS: That`s Cindy Anthony on NBC`s "Today" show.

Well, I`m sorry, Cindy, you know, you keep bashing the police. They are doing the best to try to find the body of your granddaughter. You know, you say they`re not following up on leads?

Well, we heard from the sheriff`s office, and yes, they are following up on leads. If they get a sighting, they let the police department in that particular jurisdiction handle the case.

Also, one of the other things that was in this 700-page documents was an e-mail. A very, very interesting e-mail from Cindy`s brother, Rick, to Cindy Anthony. And I quote, "Has anyone seen the friggin` babysitter? This is the friggin` question. If you can`t answer yes or no, then I have nothing more to say to you.

No grandparent that I know doesn`t know who is babysitting their grandchild. You have never seen this person. Who has seen her? If you can`t answer me, then count me out. Either produce a witness or forget it. This is not a, quote, `do you believe in God situation.` Have faith.

Your ignorance is intolerable. I am your brother, and I demand to know if anyone other than Casey has seen this stupid sitter. If you can`t answer that simple request, then you all -- are all by yourself on this. You need to get some psychiatric help."

Well, I tell you what, that is from her brother, Cindy Anthony`s brother.

Right now, I`d like to bring in from Los Angeles Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Dealbreakers."

Bethany, you just heard that from her own brother.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Yes.

BROOKS: And, you know, we`ve seen this whole family. George, Cindy, Casey, Lee. There`s a strange, strange family dynamic here. Help us figure that out.

MARSHALL: Well, I think that what has happened is that Cindy Anthony has developed this elaborate -- almost like a fanatical religious belief system about her own daughter. Almost like people who hold dogmatic beliefs.

And the belief system is designed to ward off the fact that her own daughter could be homicidal. And the belief system started a long time before little Caylee went missing, and the brother, looking from the outside in, as we as the public are looking from the outside in, begins to confront Cindy on this fanatical belief system about her own daughter.

And I think what this points to now is maybe the washing of the pants was because she was protecting Casey. Maybe giving the wrong hairbrush was an attempt at deception of the police.

And maybe -- and I agree with the attorneys on this, that the reason George Anthony went in and testified in front of the grand jury is that he does not have a voice at home in front of Cindy, just like her own brother did not have a voice. And this is the one chance he had to go in and tell the truth about what was happening.

BROOKS: You know, I have to agree with you, Bethany, because all along, I`m kind of seeing a family where George may try to inflict some, you know, some punishment on Casey or correct Casey. And it`s Cindy, no, no George, George, now, don`t do that. She -- it`ll be OK. And I think George has just had enough of it.

MARSHALL: I think so. And what`s really -- what is emerging is that the mother is ending up being almost as deceptive as the daughter. So we wonder how does all this pathological lying get started? Maybe we are getting a case study in that.

And I have to throw in one more thing.

BROOKS: Sure.

MARSHALL: I think what Leonard Padilla said about him implicating George Anthony on going and looking for sex sites, I think that was mean- spirited and low at a time like this.

And I think the fact is that Casey may have joined in her own mind getting rid of her daughter and then going out and looking for escorting work at the same time. That seems to make a lot more sense in this situation.

BROOKS: It does seem.

We`re taking your calls live. Eleanor in Florida, thanks for staying with us, Eleanor. You have a question. We have Eleanor from Florida? How about Joanne from New York?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I`m here.

BROOKS: Hi, Joanne.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m -- hi, how you doing?

BROOKS: Good.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m curious. I know that everybody said that the boyfriend has been cooperative. But I find it very odd that George said from, like, three feet away with the car being all sealed up, all locked up and everything, that the smell was horrible.

And I know that the boyfriend went to pick Casey up when she called when her -- when she called initially that her car had died. I find it strange he didn`t notice the smell. And I was wondering if maybe Leonard Padilla knows whether or not the boyfriend took a lie detector test.

BROOKS: I believe that he did, didn`t he, Leonard?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, SEARCHING FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Jesse took a lie detector test, and I believe Tony Lazzarro did also.

BROOKS: Yes.

PADILLA: But let me, let me come back on something that took place one night while we were there. George actually, at the top of his voice, said I can`t stand this anymore. I`m tired of living a lie. I`m not going to do this anymore. And his friend, Jim Smith, who was a cop with him up in Warren, Ohio was there as a witness to that statement that George made that night.

And I wasn`t implicating George in those sex searches. He`s not the one that was traveling out of town on his job going to other cities. Think about that, ma`am.

BROOKS: Now I will also go back out to the lines. Chris from Oklahoma.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, how are you?

BROOKS: Good, buddy. You have a question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, some of the terms that you had on the search terms, I noticed that it said "sex tour" up there. And automatically, in my mind, I mean, I`ve watched a lot of these new shows, and, you know, you hear about these people that they get involved with selling their children off to, like, sexual slavery and those type of criminal organized, you know, things overseas.

BROOKS: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I`m wondering if they`ve looked into that, that maybe this is a deal gone wrong, or something like that.

BROOKS: Mark Williams, news director from -- I`m sorry, WNDB News Talk 1150. Have you -- have they looked at all into that? You know it sounds like the Joran Van Der Sloot case.

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, you know, here`s the one thing, Mike, is the fact that they`ve probably looked into that. But let`s just take a look at the facts. The cadaver dogs hit in the back of the car.

BROOKS: Right.

WILLIAMS: Hit two spots in the back of the Anthony household by the swimming pool and under a, under a little play house that they had. The FBI, in their evidence, have said that Casey -- little Caylee is dead, the Orange County Sheriff`s Office keeps talking about it.

And, of course, you know, we get Cindy Anthony on "Today" -- on the "Today" show this morning, same song, same verse, poor-mouthing the Orange County Sheriff`s Department, who Leonard Padilla says is one of the top 10 investigative units that he has ever run into.

BROOKS: No, and I know the Orange County Sheriff`s Department.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

BROOKS: I mean I -- I know folks down there. And the FBI, you`re going to say that the FBI lab is wrong also? I just, I just don`t get it.

I want to go back out to the attorneys, Eleanor Dixon out of Atlanta, Renee Rockwell and Alan Ripka out of New York.

Should Cindy Anthony just stay off TV and keep her mouth shut, Eleanor?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: I think so. Something interesting she said on the "Today" show is something was decaying in that trunk. Well, think about it, Mike. What was decaying in the trunk? It was a human body, probably Caylee`s in which the cadaver dog hit on.

BROOKS: Well, you know, Alan, their attorney, Mark Nejame, he`s -- I think he threw his hands up and said, you know, no more. I can`t take this anymore, and he`s no longer representing them.

Do you think that somebody should just tell them, look, just stay in your house, keep your mouth shut, because do you think they`re hurting the case by coming out like this?

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it`s always better when your client, their family and anybody else doesn`t make any statements, because oftentimes those statements could be used against your client during the course of trial.

In this case, however, it`s funny. The motion was made for a gag order by the prosecution. It`s usually made by the defense. And in this case, I thought all these statements were helping the defense.

By having all these people come out and make all these statements, they were gaining valuable information and evidence, but they chose to try to gag it, and it didn`t work for them.

BROOKS: Right.

Before we go to break, we ask for your thoughts and prayers for little 5-year-old Pensacola friend, Joey. After receiving a kidney transplant just two years ago, Joey is in the hospital fighting pneumonia.

Joey, please get well soon. We`re thinking of you, buddy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She has worked so hard all of her life to make sure that you have kids to be proud of, she has kids to be proud of. And other people can be proud of her family.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That that perception on her part is being shattered right now, and she doesn`t want to admit that yet.

G. ANTHONY: I know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Subjects such as responsibility and dependability, she rated her extremely high in all of them.

G. ANTHONY: Wow.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And -- that`s one reason I didn`t want you to think that I was just saying earlier that your wife is seeing through -- things through rose-colored glasses or things but that`s actually what she is telling us, and she`s putting it in writing. That this, this is how she feels about her and how she views her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROOKS: I`m Mike Brooks in for Nancy Grace.

Over 700 pages of documents released by the state`s attorney`s office today, and some of the information on it you will not believe. Computer searches. Somebody searching a computer on neck-breaking, chloroform, death, shovel.

Who`s making these -- who`s making these searches? We don`t know. How to make chloroform? Household weapons? It looks like -- you know, as you might -- whoever, I don`t want she. Whoever this was should have just gone out and gotten the anarchists cookbook or the book, "How to Get Even."

I just don`t understand it but there`s -- and there`s plenty more.

I want to go back out to Kathi Belich, reporter for CNN affiliate WFTV.

Kathi, there was also something in there about Casey Anthony stealing from her grandmother. What was that all about?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: Well, she`s stolen from her grandmother apparently more than once. She wrote a check to a grocery store chain here for 50-some dollars, and then at some point after that, hundreds of dollars to pay for her phone bill, her cell phone bill.

And actually, her grandmother told investigators that she did confront Casey about stealing the money. It was actually stolen from an account that was dedicated to her grandfather`s assisted living facility payment for that.

BROOKS: Nice.

BELICH: For those services. And even her grandmother didn`t have access to that account. But she said that Casey did admit it to her and she forgave her for Casey`s and for Caylee`s sake, as well.

But apparently, when this came to light, this caused a lot of tension between Cindy and Casey, already a tense relationship, and apparently there was a big argument about that very thing on Father`s Day after Cindy had visited with Caylee, and had visited the grandparents.

And they were talking about that money again. And there was a big fight, apparently, on Sunday, and the documents show that apparently Cindy might have grabbed Casey by the neck the day before she and Caylee took off, the last day that anyone had ever seen Caylee alive.

BROOKS: So Natisha Lance, NANCY GRACE producer, do you think it was this fight that could have kind of kicked everything off?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, it`s a possibility. There are reports previously that said that Cindy Anthony was seeing a counselor, and this counselor had told her that she needed to cut Casey off, put Casey out of the house.

And on that 911 tape, you do hear Cindy saying I gave you 30 days, so perhaps it could be referring to her putting her out of the house and giving her some time to get her act together. But we don`t know for sure.

BROOKS: Bethany Marshall, a psychoanalyst and author of "Dealbreakers," this behavior, this whole stealing -- I mean she steals from everybody, you don`t leave your checkbook around this woman, that`s for sure. I mean she stole from her best friend, she`s stolen from her parents, we heard that right in the very beginning, and now her grandmother.

MARSHALL: Well, I think for Casey the world is a piggy bank, OK? So she steals from her grandmother.

BROOKS: And she did -- stole from her daughter`s piggy bank.

MARSHALL: She took the money out of her child`s own piggy bank. She steals from her parents. Maybe if she was looking at escorting sites, maybe she was going to see men as piggy banks or marks so she could take money off of them in an illicit kind of way, but if this is true, it could provide a powerful motivation for homicide, because maybe George and Cindy were spending their money, their piggy bank, so to speak, on Caylee, the granddaughter.

And that built up a great deal of resentment on Casey`s part towards her own parents and towards the little girl, and that could have been sort of the boiling point that was taking place in the household.

BROOKS: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: As far as other moneys that my daughter was taking, she took a small quarter coin collection. I know she`s been taking money from my granddaughter`s bank, because I`m always dropping five bucks, quarters, you know, one day you go in there and that bank is heavy, that`s a good- sized piggy bank and you know you put money in there. You know it. There`s nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROOKS: That`s Casey`s dad talking about her stealing from her own daughter.

I want to go back out to Natisha Lance, NANCY GRACE producer. We also see in these documents, Natisha, a detailed description of the so-called nanny.

LANCE: That`s correct. There is a detailed description of the nanny. Now I spoke to the Orange County Sheriff`s Office, and they said -- I asked them, why didn`t they put out a composite sketch, and why didn`t they make this description available previously.

And they said that up until this point, even now, Casey has never told the truth about anything. So they didn`t want to put anything out there that would mislead the public, send them on a wild goose chase. But this description said that Zenaida was about 5`7", had curly brown hair, brown eyes, weighed 140 pounds, and she had a lot of money.

BROOKS: She had a lot of money. Hmmm. Did she have bills hanging off of her clothes? I mean, how does she -- well, first of all, we know that there is no Zenaida Gonzalez to begin with. And she had lots of money.

It seems like this young lady was obsessed with money, Pat Brown.

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "KILLING FOR SPORT": The funny thing about that is how many people who have lots of money do daycare? Usually you do daycare because you really need some.

Casey likes to fabricate and she fabricates anything that is useful to her. So at any point in time where she needs to come up with a new story that she thinks can convince somebody of her innocence or put her in a better light she`s going to make a story up. So you cannot believe what she said.

BROOKS: It seems like if her mouth is moving she`s lying.

Let`s go out to the phones. Karen from Pennsylvania, thanks for joining us.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I was -- my question is, I was just kind of wondering with all of the lies that Cindy Anthony has told and everything, has anyone thought about the possibility that -- the fact that maybe she is willing to take an obstruction of justice charge to create enough doubt that at least one jury member will be swayed and her daughter will escape the death penalty?

BROOKS: Renee Rockwell, what do you think?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely, and you can`t blame her, that`s her daughter, that`s her blood. And I don`t -- I wouldn`t blame her at all. But she`s going to be prosecuted.

BROOKS: But Alan, what do you, what do you -- I mean, come on. Should there be an obstruction of justice charge? I think if they find out that she did this, and they say -- she has told people that, you know, I gave them the wrong one, she should go -- she should be locked up.

RIPKA: I mean, at the end of the day, what are you going to do? You`re going to start prosecuting the grandmother of a -- dead baby? I think you`re going out of bounds here and I don`t think they`re going to take the time to do it.

BROOKS: I think -- hey, put the cuffs on her, put the cuffs on her, take her to jail as far as I`m concerned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TOT CAYLEE ANTHONY: The biggest mistake was not calling you guys right off the bat. I understand all of that. It`s the biggest slap in the face and I did that to myself. But the worse is I`ve done this to my daughter by allowing her to still be with someone else.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROOKS: Over 700 pages of documents released by the state attorney`s office today. And included in those documents are a whole series of text messages from tot mom to her boyfriend at the time, Tony Lazzaro, on the early morning of July 16th. It starts off at 7:02 a.m. from Casey.

"I`m the dumbest person and the worst mother, I honestly hate myself. The most important thing is getting Caylee back but I truly hope that you can forgive me. Granted I will never be able to forgive myself. No."

Then Tony asks, "Are you open? Yes, almost 12 hours of stuff, finally getting a shower. I feel like hell."

Tony: "Where did you drop off Caylee the last time you saw her?" She says, "At the apartment at the bottom of the stairs. Where? Sawgrass Apartments. I`ve showed and told the police the apartment."

And it goes on from there. But we know now that it is all a lie.

Eleanor, this doesn`t look good for her, does isn`t it?

DIXON: It doesn`t. The best thing the prosecutors can do is to use her own words in her prosecution to show that she is a constant liar. So this is great for the prosecution.

BROOKS: Renee, how would you, how would you defend things like that?

ROCKWELL: Mike, just because she`s a liar does not make her a murderer.

BROOKS: But she hasn`t told the truth from the very beginning.

ROCKWELL: I know that.

BROOKS: About anything.

ROCKWELL: She`s her own worst enemy. But there might be a juror that thinks that this child is still alive and that -- or that she might be protecting somebody.

BROOKS: Alan, you agree, yes or no?

RIPKA: At the end of the day the jury can`t convict based upon these lies that you believe she`s made. There`s no dead body, there`s no physical evidence.

BROOKS: Thank you, Alan.

Tonight, let`s stop to remember Army Sergeant First Class Jason Dene, 37, from Castleton, Vermont, on a third tour of duty in Iraq. Dene dreamed of joining the military as a young boy, serving 20 years. He lost his life just one month before he was set to return home. He leaves behind parents Tisa, Teri widow -- Teri widow Judith, and three children.

Jason Dene, a true American hero.

Thank you to all our guests and you at home for being with us. A special good night from New Hampshire friend Shelby.

We`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 p.m. Eastern. Until then, stay safe.

END

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« Reply #47 on: November 28, 2008, 09:28:24 PM »

NANCY GRACE

Facts and Evidence in the Caylee Anthony Case

Aired November 27, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony is a 22-year-old mother. That`s a fact. This is her beautiful 2-year-old Caylee. That`s also true, but the rest of the story is blurry, at best, false at worst.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anthony claims she dropped her daughter off at this apartment on June 9th and when she came back the babysitter was gone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everything she has told them so far has led nowhere. The Anthonys admit Casey has lied to them again and again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee`s mother, Casey, abandoned her white 1998 Pontiac in the parking lot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell what she knows about Caylee`s whereabouts and the little girl`s well being.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The sheriff`s deputy has testified Casey Anthony`s car did smell of decomposition and one of the dogs smelled human remains.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her own mother locked up in jail continues to keep her secret locked up as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: A beautiful little 2-year-old Florida girl Caylee Anthony vanishes into thin air last seen by her mother. In a stunning twist, baby Caylee go on for an entire month before she`s even reported missing and it isn`t her mom who finally calls 911. It`s little Caylee`s grandmother.

So why didn`t mommy call police? The grandma`s 911 call ignites a desperate search. A police investigation and lie after lie by the tot mom, but still, no sign of Caylee.

Tonight, the crucial first 24 hours in the search for Caylee and the police investigation that follows.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE (voice over): Amazingly, it all starts here at this local check cashing shop Amscot. Casey Anthony`s white `98 white Pontiac Sunfire left abandoned in the parking lot for days. Mom Casey calls Anthony Lazzaro, saying she`s run out of gas.

He shows up and Casey Anthony leaves the Pontiac behind saying her dad will take care of it.

ANTHONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: I got a call that to come pick her up that she ran out of gas. I asked her where she was and she said that she ran out of gas at that corner and that somebody helped her push her car into the Amscot. So then I went and picked her up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No child that night before?

LAZZARO: No child with her at all. She had some groceries and some clothes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where were the groceries from?

LAZZARO: They weren`t actually groceries from the store. It was from her house. She had some freezer pops and like some Tyson chicken or something to make for dinner that night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From grandma`s house?

LAZZARO: Yes, because it wasn`t in any bags. It just looked like normal plastic bags.

GRACE: June 15th, Casey Anthony`s parents George and Cindy Anthony get a letter from Johnson`s Wrecker Service. It reveals the tot mom`s car has been towed to the wrecking yard and has been sitting there for nearly two weeks.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: We received a registered letter. It was stuck on our door. I did not find that registered letter until the Sunday before Tuesday which was, what, 13th, I guess, and when we opened it up -- I mean, it just says that there was a registered letter waiting for us at the post office because, obviously, you can`t go find out on that Sunday.

So the letter was stated that was put on my door on the 11th, but I didn`t find that letter until the 13th. On the 14th, my husband had a chance to go get the registered letter. So that`s why I was talking technical because you`ve been so technical and I`m trying to be as cooperative as I can, so on the 15th is when we got the registered letter, my husband did, and when he found out it was from a towing company is when we found out about the car.

GRACE: George and Cindy Anthony head to Johnson`s wrecking yard and it`s there, the heart wrenching story of Caylee Anthony begins to unravel.

After settling the $500 towing bill, the manager leads George to his daughter`s car. When they open the driver`s side door, the car wreaks with the smell the manager tells police knocks him back. It`s the smell of human decomposition.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: The wrecker, I don`t know what the genetleman`s name, I still don`t know, I`m sure you guys know by now, but he said, whoa, does that stink. I said -- I sat in the car for a second and I opened up the passenger door because I was trying to vent that thing.

GRACE: At this point grandmother Cindy hasn`t seen her granddaughter for three weeks. She finds a scrap of paper inside Casey Anthony`s car. On it, the phone number for Anthony`s friend, Amy Huizenga. Also left behind, Caylee`s favorite baby doll. She refused to go anywhere without the doll, day or night.

Determined to find her daughter and her granddaughter, Cindy Anthony calls the friend Amy.

In the meantime Casey Anthony is driving Amy Huizenga`s car while she`s on vacation. Well, unfortunately, Huizenga left something behind, her checkbook.

Anthony caught on grainy surveillance video at a local bank and Target allegedly forging friend Amy`s check, racking up hundreds of dollars worth of lingerie, sportswear, grocery, even cases of beer. No toys, no diapers, no baby clothes, nothing, not a single thing for little Caylee.

Casey Anthony`s check scheme later lands her multiple fraud and theft charges.

CAPTAIN ANGELO NIEVES, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPT.: Orange County`s Sheriff`s Office detectives return to the Anthony residence and place the defendant under arrest for violation of Florida statutes dealing with economic crimes. The defendant was placed into custody without incident and transported here to the Orange County main office for processing of her paperwork.

The defendant is under arrest currently for violation of Florida statutes dealing with (INAUDIBLE) a forged instrument, fraudulent use of personal information and petty theft. She had used some moneys and checks and an account that did not belong to her. It belonged to someone else. That was known to her and that was a violation of Florida state law.

You have the investigative process. You have to make sure that you have your information that`s collected. We have to have information back from the banking institution so there`s a number of dots that we need to point and make sure that our homework is properly done, and we`ll continue to do so.

Remember that there isn`t any investigation of this magnitude. You have allegations and additional charges that may surface and we`ll continue to investigate those as well.

GRACE: Between 2:00 and 4:00 p.m. Casey Anthony stops at the Cast-Iron Tattoo shop and makes an appointment. She then heads to the Orlando International Airport to pick up friend Amy Huizenga. Amy Huizenga back from Puerto Rico, a trip Casey wanted to make herself, but claims Caylee was the reason she couldn`t go.

After picking up her so-called friend, Huizenga drops Casey off at her current live-in`s apartment, Tony Lazzaro. Amy drives off with no idea she`s about to become involved in a major dispute between Cindy and Casey Anthony.

According to police, Huizenga received a disturbing call from Cindy Anthony desperately wanting to talk to Amy. Cindy Anthony tells Amy if she doesn`t find Casey, Casey Anthony will end up behind bars.

AMY HUIZENGA, CASEY ANTHONY`S FORMER FRIEND: The grandma called me and pretty much wondering where her daughter and granddaughter were. Briefly explained some of the situation. Offered to come pick me up from the mall.

After some deliberation I decided to pick her up on that offer. She sounded very concerned and told me that if she did not find Casey she would end up in jail. And I.

CPL. EDWARDS: Grandma said that?

HUIZENGA: Yes. I decided to trust her.

DET. RIVERA: Did you ask her why she would make a statement like that?

HUIZENGA: Well, she has told me that the car had been in impound since the 30th and they had just gotten it off. She hadn`t seen Caylee. She was pretty panicky.

GRACE: Cindy tells Huizenga about the letter from the tow company and the stench of the trunk of Casey`s car. Amy confides the tot mom told her she`d run over something, an animal, with the car.

CPL. EDWARDS: Grandma ever ask you about a smell coming from the car?

HUIZENGA: She told me about the smell in the car ride back to Tony`s place. After she had picked me from the Florida mall, that was -- she was telling me the story about, you know, the fact that she had gotten a letter from the impound saying that the car had been impounded since the 30th. They went to go pick it up. And that the car smelled like something had died. And.

CPL. EDWARDS: Grandma tells me that and at that point I`m like, oh yes, Casey told me she had run something over with her car. And then proceeds, she proceeds to tell me, she`s like, oh well, you know, we didn`t know that. But proceeds to tell me the rest of the story that the impound law because they couldn`t, did have the keys.

DET. RIVERA: Yes, but didn`t you say that that Casey blamed her dad for running something over?

HUIZENGA: Is what she told me but we now know that.

DET. RIVERA: That`s what she told you.

HUIZENGA: . nothing Casey says is true.

GRACE: But Cindy Anthony goes on to blame the smell on pizza boxes. Pizza boxes rotting left sitting in the car.

C. ANTHONY: There was a bag of pizza, for what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggot that stunk so bad. You know how hot it`s been. That smell was terrible.

GRACE: Next the so-called babysitter Casey Anthony claims is a kidnapper.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: NANCY GRACE brought to you by.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Cindy Anthony reveals multiple lies Casey Anthony has told. Grandfather George never had a mini stroke.

G. ANTHONY: There is no ridiculous question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you have a stroke on the 13th? That you were treated at the hospital before?

G. ANTHONY: No. Curious where you got that from.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ll shed light on it for you. You don`t look like you`ve had a stroke last month.

G. ANTHONY: Well, put it this way. I thought I almost did because I did get -- but that was about four, three years ago just before I had my knee replacement or something like that, but.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your daughter, it seems, has a pattern as if she`s made a date with a friend or scheduled to do something and if she needs to come up with a reason not to do it. Instead of just saying I don`t feel like going, she comes up with that you had a stroke on the 13th and she was unable to go to Jacksonville with someone because she was busy at the hospital with you. So it`s always on the extreme.

G. ANTHONY: That`s extreme, all right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

G. ANTHONY: Because if I had a stroke I wouldn`t be sitting here talking to you guys. I mean, let`s put it this way, if I was, it would be sort of a miracle so I would have.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I still had to ask.

G. ANTHONY: Oh I know. This is getting so bizarre. This is just unbelievable.

GRACE: George and Cindy were no longer getting a divorce and Casey Anthony stole money from her parents and the grandparents.

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: Stolen money from mom, I`ve been a bad daughter. You know, I`ve been -- she said I`ve stolen money from you. You know, I`ve been untrustworthy. You know? And she goes, and maybe I have been a -- you know, a bad mother, a daughter and sister.

GRACE: Cindy Anthony even questions whether Casey has a job, asking Amy where does Casey work. Well, Amy says Universal Studios. Cindy also claims Casey is an unfit mother and vows she plans to seek legal custody of little Caylee.

HUIZENGA: She said that she was worried she hadn`t seen Caylee. She hadn`t talked to Caylee in over a month. Casey kept saying she`s fine. She`s with the nanny and she pretty much, you know, said that she thought Casey was an unfit mother and that if this goes on much longer that she would sue for custody of Caylee if it got to that.

DET. RIVERA: Why did she think she was an unfit mom?

HUIZENGA: The going out, the partying. She -- I don`t know if you guys have seen the picture of Casey and the American flag. That`s from a no- clothes party that we went to in May.

She pretty much showed that picture that she had printed it off from a computer in her face and said you`re at work, huh? And so that she had been watching Caylee and Casey had said she was at work. And it was the going out, the partying.

DET. RIVERA: That was the no clothes party?

HUIZENGA: Yes.

DET. RIVERA: So she was with the mom at the no clothes party?

HUIZENGA: Yes.

GRACE: Then we learned about Cindy and George Anthony, scared to open Casey`s car trunk. That was when they picked it up from the tow yard. They were both terrified Caylee was dead inside.

CPL. YURY MELICH, ORANGE COUNTY INVESTIGATOR: When I first saw you that night, when I first came to your house, there was a mention of the car. And there was a mention of what you smelled in the car. Do you remember what you told me?

G. ANTHONY: I believe that there`s something dead back there. I hate to say the word human. I hate to say that. When I first went there to pick up that vehicle I got within three feet of it. I could smell something.

You look up and you say, please don`t let this be, please don`t let this be, because I`m thinking of my daughter and my granddaughter first. I glance in the car on the passenger side, I see her seat is there. I see some other stuff around in it. As I walk around to the driver side and put the key in it, I said please don`t let this be what I think it is.

GRACE: 7:30 p.m. that night, Amy lead Cindy straight to Casey Anthony at boyfriend Tony Lazzaro`s apartment.

LAZZARO: What happened was I was just sitting there with my roommate Nathan. We were playing video games and she -- and Casey was sitting there at the couch also on the laptop, and then all of a sudden there was a knock on the door and I said come in and there was Amy just standing there with a miserable face.

And we were all -- we all looked confused and then Casey then proceeded to go outside and it was me and my roommate went back to playing video games. Then I would say about a half hour later Casey and her mother Cindy Anthony came to the -- Casey stormed in and looked like she was in tears and her mom said get your things. You`re coming with me.

And Casey said no, I`m coming back. She said, OK, but I`m coming back. And she goes, no, get all your things.

GRACE: A mother/daughter confrontation ensues outside the apartment with Cindy demanding Casey lead her to Caylee. Casey repeatedly insists Caylee`s fine and with a nanny.

Getting nowhere, Cindy Anthony forces Casey into the car. The blowup continues in the car with Grandmother Cindy confronting the tot mom about all the lies and the horrible smell in the car. Casey simply sits there refusing to talk.

HUIZENGA: Mrs. Anthony confronted Casey about a lot of those lies in the car and she pretty much sat there.

DET. RIVERA: You were in the car?

HUIZENGA: She didn`t say a word. Yes. Well, because they took me back to where I live.

CPL. EDWARDS: Did grandmother bark at Casey about the smell in the trunk of the car.

HUIZENGA: Yes.

CPL. EDWARDS: She did.

HUIZENGA: I don`t remember.

CPL. EDWARDS: What did she.

HUIZENGA: Just saying that the car smells like (EXPLETIVE DELETED). And you know, (EXPLETIVE DELETED) were terrified.

CPL. EDWARDS: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) or death? I mean did she go down the death road with her like.

HUIZENGA: I don`t, I don`t remember. It was very, very uncomfortable for me to be in the middle of that.

CPL. EDWARDS: Oh, I could only imagine.

GRACE: Finally, Cindy Anthony threatens to call police and that is when, according to Cindy, Casey confesses Caylee has been missing a month.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You called the police that night.

C. ANTHONY: Correct.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For a reason.

C. ANTHONY: Correct.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What reason?

C. ANTHONY: Because after speaking with Casey, she -- I did not get to see Caylee. Right? I was not satisfied with her answers.

GRACE: Casey Anthony quickly blames the so-called nanny saying she kidnapped the tot. Grandmother Cindy makes two frantic 911 calls to police.

OPERATOR: 911, what`s your emergency?

C. ANTHONY: I`m calling a little bit ago. The deputy sheriff found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she`s been missing.

OPERATOR: OK, what is.

C. ANTHONY: Get someone here now.

OPERATOR: OK. What is the address that you`re calling from?

C. ANTHONY: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl. My daughter finally admitted that the babysitter stole her. I need to find her.

OPERATOR: Your daughter admitted that the baby is where?

C. ANTHONY: That the sitter took her a month ago that my daughter`s been looking for her. I told you my daughter was missing for a month. I just found her today, but I can`t find my granddaughter.

She just admitted to me that she`s been trying to find her herself. There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.

OPERATOR: OK, what is the 3-year-old`s name?

C. ANTHONY: Caylee. C-A-Y-L-E-E Anthony.

OPERATOR: Caylee Anthony?

C. ANTHONY: Yes.

OPERATOR: How long has she been missing for?

C. ANTHONY: I have not seen her since the 7th of June.

OPERATOR: What is her date of birth?

C. ANTHONY: 8-9-2000, oh gosh, she`s 3, 2005. Caylee`s missing. Caylee`s missing. Casey says Zanny took her a month ago. She`s been missing for a month.

GRACE: That same night, 11 p.m., grandmother Cindy calls Amy Huizenga in tears to give her the heartbreaking news.

HUIZENGA: They dropped me off and then I did not hear from either of them until 11:00 when Cindy Anthony called me and told me that -- she had told me when she dropped me off, I`ll let you know what happens and, you know, if Caylee is OK and all that stuff, and called me crying at about 11:00 that night saying that, you know, Casey was gone -- or Caylee was gone and that Casey said that the nanny had ran off with her, like, a month ago.

And you know, that`s the first I heard of that story, but she called from me from her cell phone at 11:00 on the 15th.

GRACE: Meantime, Casey Anthony reaches out to numerous friends to report Caylee`s been missing over a month.

Next, more on the critical first 24 hours of the Caylee Anthony investigation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Cindy Anthony`s 911 calls are the beginning of a bizarre case. After the frantic calls, multiple police interrogations, written statements by family and friends, investigators head out to the Anthony home.

Detectives meet with mom Casey in private, confronting her about her version of events, even offering her a chance to change her story and tell the truth, but tough as nails, Casey Anthony refuses, reiterating the same story to cops. Her little girl was kidnapped by a babysitter Zenaida Gonzalez.

MELICH: I asked you this at the onset and before we move on tape and I`ll ask you again just to make sure we`re clear.

Is there anything about this story that you`re telling me that is untrue or is there anything that you want to change or divert from what you`ve already told me?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: No, sir.

MELICH: Did you cause injury to your child Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

MELICH: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you`re worried that if we find that out that people are going to look at you the wrong way?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

MELICH: You`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned?

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.

The horrible thing that happened is this is the honest to God`s truth, of every thing that I`ve said I do not know where she is. The last person that I saw her with is Zenaida. She`s the last person that I`ve seen my daughter with.

MELICH: And you know that that`s not true. That can`t be the truth because if that were the truth everything you would have told us would have been on the money. The addresses you would have taken us would have been on the money. Everything else would have matched.

If you had told us the truth, we wouldn`t be here at Universal Studios at a place that you`ve been fired since 2006 with you trying to explain to us, you know, that you got an office and all that stuff.

GRACE: According to Casey Anthony, between 9:00 p.m. and 1:00 a.m. June 9th she drops Caylee off with nanny Zenaida on the stairwell at Sawgrass Apartments, then heads to Universal Studios for work.

SGT. JOHN ALLEN, ORANGE COUNTY INVESTIGATOR: I want to go through this and I want you to stop me at the part that isn`t the truth, OK? You take your daughter and you drop her off on June the 9th, OK, at somebody -- at the babysitter`s house. OK? Now this is the babysitter that lives at this apartment, OK? That`s been vacant.

CASEY ANTHONY: I dropped her off at that apartment.

ALLEN: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: At the stairs.

ALLEN: Oh you just walked her -- you dropped her off and.

CASEY ANTHONY: I walked her to the stairs. That`s where I`ve dropped her off a bunch of other times besides just that day.

ALLEN: OK. And when you dropped her off, who took her at that point?

CASEY ANTHONY: Zani did. She took her at that point.

ALLEN: So you left her in Zani`s care on June 9th. OK? So far that`s right? OK?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

GRACE: When we come back, mom Casey Anthony refuses to cooperate in the search for her little girl.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MELICH: Go back to your statement, you dropped off your -- you dropped off Caylee on June 9th and -- walk me through -- you dropped her off to go to work?

CASEY ANTHONY: Uh-huh.

MELICH: OK. Get off of work and go from there.

CASEY ANTHONY: I got off of work, left Universal driving back to pick up Caylee like a normal day. And I show up to the apartment, knock on the door, nobody answers. So I called Zenaida`s cell phone and it`s out of service, says that the -- the phone is no longer in service, excuse me.

So I sit down on the steps and wait for a little bit to see if maybe it was just a fluke, if something happened. And time passed. I didn`t hear from anyone. No one showed up to the house so I went over to Jay Blanchard Park and checked a couple other places where maybe possibly they would`ve gone, a couple stores -- just regular places that I know Zenaida shops at and she`s taken Caylee before.

GRACE: Tot mom says she goes several places Zenaida frequents, a local park, stores, she even parties at nightclubs to find Zenaida and Caylee.

Instead of calling police, though, she says she starts her own investigation. We later learned that investigation includes multiple trips to nightclub Fusion, but photos show it doesn`t appear the tot mom is looking for Caylee.

Stunning and disturbing photos emerge of mom Casey partying, hanging out with friends, dancing the night away, even reportedly the life of the party at the club`s hot body contest. All just days, days after she says little Caylee`s kidnapped.

The name Zenaida Gonzalez quickly becomes the focus of the police investigation after tot mom says the babysitter`s a kidnapper. Police ask Casey to take them to known Zenaida locations, but this quickly degenerates into a big waste of time.

ALLEN: That makes sense to you? It makes sense to you that I`m trying to help the police find my daughter by giving them a bunch of bad addresses? That makes sense to you?

CASEY ANTHONY: That`s what I said, yes.

ALLEN: No, no, I`m asking you. That makes sense to you? My attempt.

CASEY ANTHONY: That part of it, no. Not at all.

ALLEN: My attempt to help him find my child, OK? What I`ve done to try to help him find my child is I`ve given him a whole bunch of addresses to go to that are bad addressed. That`s what I did to help him find my child.

That makes sense to you?

CASEY ANTHONY: I took him to the last place that I`ve seen my daughter. Besides that I took them to other places that I`ve seen.

ALLEN: OK, when you -- when you brought us here -- when you brought us here to go look in your office, that was supposed to help us how? Because everything we`re doing here is about finding your daughter, OK?

So I want you, OK, to explain to me how coming here to go to an office that you don`t have, I want you to tell me how that`s helping us find your daughter.

GRACE: Casey Anthony agreed to show cops three of Zenaida`s last known locations in hopes of making an I.D. Their first stop, 301 North Hillside Drive where the tot mom points out a second floor window on the building`s northwest corner, claiming Zenaida lived in that apartment in 2006.

But the building turns out to be a seniors` only living facility. No Zenaida.

Then they had to 2863 Conway Road, the Sawgrass Apartments, the location Anthony claims to have last seen Caylee. Again, no Zenaida.

Their final stop, a town home community Crossings at Conway. Anthony tells cops Zenaida`s mom owns a condo here and that she dropped Caylee there many times in 2006 and early 2007, but then, once again, mom Casey runs into big trouble. She can`t point cops to the specific town home claiming she can`t remember the address.

Police approached three different town homes, but all three tenants say they don`t know Zenaida or Zenaida`s mom Gloria. Again, no Zenaida.

MELICH: So you`re saying that your ex-boyfriend`s house the 9th of this month when you`re staying at your other boyfriend`s house, Tony, the rest of the month?

CASEY ANTHONY: He`d been out of town so I was staying over at another friend`s place while he was gone. I wasn`t staying in his apartment. I was staying with Amy and Ricardo and J.P. J.P. and Ricardo own the house.

MELICH: So why didn`t, why didn`t you tell us you were staying there? We drove right by the house this morning, didn`t we, when we went today? OK? And you were pointing us to an old folk`s home, which is another lie. Right? Because Zanny never lived there. Am I correct?

CASEY ANTHONY: Uh-huh.

MELICH: OK. Why were you pointing at this old folks` home and saying Zanny lived there at one point when she didn`t?

CASEY ANTHONY: Because she had gone there before. I`ve seen her there.

MELICH: She went to the old folk`s home.

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

MELICH: But you never dropped your kid off to her at an old folk`s home. You never went into the old folk`s home and went into an apartment with her.

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

GRACE: Getting nowhere fast, police dropped back at her parents` home. George Anthony comes out and admits to cops he believes his own daughter Casey is holding back information.

George and Cindy Anthony say they`re in fear. They`re in fear something has happened to Caylee.

Not giving up, police return to Sawgrass to question the apartment`s manager and the maintenance man. Neither knows of a Zenaida Gonzalez and when cops shows them a picture of Caylee, neither recognizes her.

Then bombshell. The manager and maintenance man reveal the apartment where Anthony claims Zenaida lives, number 210, it`s been vacant for months. Police even go inside to see with their own eyes. It`s empty.

Then a twist. The manager finds a Zenaida Gonzalez logged into a computer system. A Zenaida Gonzalez who did look at an apartment June 17th. The manager hands over Zenaida`s desk card to cops.

Detectives begin checking name after name after name in the database. Jeffrey Hopkins, the co-worker Anthony claims she told Caylee was missing. Juliette Lewis, another coworker Casey says she told Caylee was missing, and of course, the name Zenaida Gonzalez.

MELICH: Who else did you talk to about this besides Jeffrey? You said you tried to cal Zenaida`s mom. You talk to Jeffrey. Who else did you talk to?

CASEY ANTHONY: I talked to Juliette Lewis. She was one of my coworkers at Universal.

MELICH: She works -- you still work at Universal?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

MELICH: What do you do at Universal?

CASEY ANTHONY: An event coordinator.

MELICH: OK. What is Juliette -- what position is she?

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s also an event coordinator. We work in the same department.

MELICH: Do you have a number for Juliette?

CASEY ANTHONY: Offhand, I can`t think of one.

MELICH: Is she in your SIM card?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, she`s not. Some of the more recent numbers. Her number just changed because she just moved back up north, she -- within the last two months has finished moving up to New York. She`s subleasing her apartment.

MELICH: So Juliette doesn`t work at Universal anymore.

CASEY ANTHONY: No, she does not.

GRACE: Not only did Casey Anthony say Zenaida was a babysitter, but also a seasonal employee at Universal.

MELICH: Where does Zenaida, does she have another job besides watching children?

CASEY ANTHONY: She has a seasonal I.D. for Universal, however, the only job that I that she`s had for the last few years, she`s been a nanny.

MELICH: So seasonal employee at Universal?

CASEY ANTHONY: Mm-hmm.

MELICH: When was the last time she worked at Universal, do you know?

CASEY ANTHONY: I have no idea.

GRACE: But further investigation reveals Casey Anthony was fired from Universal April 2006. Jeff Hopkins left April 2002, and Juliette Lewis -- she never even worked there and neither did Zenaida Gonzalez.

MELICH: How about Jeff? Jeff worked here until about two months ago?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, he hasn`t worked here for quite a while.

MELICH: Ten months? How long?

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s been at least 10 months.

MELICH: OK. He got fired since 2002. He hasn`t been an employee here since 2002. And what about the girl?

CASEY ANTHONY: Juliette?

MELICH: Yes. What about her?

CASEY ANTHONY: She left two months ago. That`s exactly what she had told me.

MELICH: Juliette Lewis never worked at Universal Studios.

GRACE: Next, more on the first 24 hours in the desperate search for Florida girl, 2-year-old Caylee Anthony.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Before heading over to Universal, detectives finally locate the Zenaida Gonzalez connected to Sawgrass Apartments. She`s never met Casey Anthony or little Caylee and has never even worked as a babysitter.

Armed with new information cops call Casey Anthony who continues to insist she still works as an events coordinator at Universal, even giving them a work number and the name of a supervisor, Tom Manly.

But when cops call the number it`s not valid. And there is no such person as Tom Manly at Universal. Cops discover there is a Tom Mattison, however, who says Anthony`s not an employee there and never was.

Cops go back to mom Casey and ask her office location, but she can`t give them a building number and now she says she can`t even find her work I.D.

July 16, 12:30 p.m., detectives go to the Anthony home and tot mom agrees to go with investigators to Universal. At the entrance they meet up with three employees.

Anthony tells a security officer she works there, but she`s lost her I.D. When he asks for a supervisor`s name, Casey repeats Tom Manly. Then the security officer confirms what cops already know. There`s no Tom Manly at Universal.

For once, Casey Anthony falls silent.

The cops agree to take her back to her so-called office. Casey Anthony leads the way down a hallway as if she knows exactly where she`s going, but moments later she stops in her tracks, turns around. She`s busted.

Tot mom admits it`s all a big lie, and she doesn`t work there. Police take Casey Anthony into a conference room to confront her about her lies, the whole thing, caught on tape.

ALLEN: Our purpose in coming here was to do what? Go where?

CASEY ANTHONY: I guess there wasn`t a purpose. There wasn`t a purpose whatsoever to come up here.

ALLEN: So we`re wasting time, valuable time, we ought to be spending looking for your daughter.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m trying to think of places.

ALLEN: No, I.

CASEY ANTHONY: . where I know she`s been.

ALLEN: You`re not answering my question. Do you want us to help.

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

ALLEN: . find your daughter?

CASEY ANTHONY: I do want you to help.

ALLEN: Well, then you need to help me -- a good starting point would be to answer the questions, OK? If I say you were here because and then you just ignore that, like as if I never asked it, and go off in some other direction, does that answer the question?

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

ALLEN: OK. All right. Let`s go through this again. We`re here because? We got here how? To do what?

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I lied. Because I brought you up here. And honestly, I was reaching for.

ALLEN: No, stop right there. I want you to tell me how lying to us is going to help us find your daughter.

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not going to.

GRACE: Tot mom confesses lying about her job at Universal. One of the locations she claims Zenaida Gonzalez lives and admits she should have called police the day Caylee went missing, but she still insists last seeing Caylee June 9 Sawgrass Apartments.

During the entire interrogation Anthony doesn`t shed a single tear. She never shows emotion over her missing girl, even laughing at times.

MELICH: Everything you told us is a lie. You`re looking at me in the eyes, you`re looking at -- everything you told us is a lie. Every single thing. And you can`t.

CASEY ANTHONY: No, it isn`t.

MELICH: Yes. And you can`t keep sitting here telling us the same thing and getting constantly over and over and over again we`re disproving everything that you`re telling us. You`re telling us that you`ve lied us to, you`re telling us you`re giving us misinformation, everything you`re telling us. OK? This needs to end.

CASEY ANTHONY: The truthful thing is I have not seen my daughter. The last time that I saw her was on the 9th of June.

MELICH: And what happened to Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.

MELICH: Sure you do. You need to listen.

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.

MELICH: Something happened to Caylee. We`re not going to discuss where the last time you saw her. I`m guessing something bad happened to her some time ago and you haven`t seen her. So that part is true if you`re saying you haven`t seen her because she`s somewhere else right now.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s with someone else.

GRACE: Leaving no stone unturned, cops pull up every single Zenaida Gonzalez in the system. Casey Anthony can`t identify a single one and she doesn`t recognize the Gonzalez from Sawgrass Apartments.

NIEVES: We know that there are Zenaida Gonzalez`s out there. The Zenaida Gonzalez that have talked to us by Casey is not existent to this point. What we need to do is receive information from Casey and nothing but the truth. We need that information.

GRACE: Again at headquarters, detectives give Anthony a last chance to come clean, to tell the truth, but the tot mom digs in and sticks to her story.

July 16th, 4:33 p.m. police place tot mom Casey Anthony under arrest for child neglect and, of course, lying to investigators. Cops continue passing along any new information about the investigation to mom Casey behind bars.

Each time Casey Anthony insists she does not know where Caylee, still laughing at times. The same day grandfather George turns over Anthony`s laptop computer to police. Forensic investigators discover photos on of Caylee with her great-grandfather, photos taken June 15, proving Caylee`s alive after June 9.

That`s the day tot mom claims to have last seen Caylee. George also tells police he sees Casey Anthony and granddaughter Caylee leaving the home the morning of June 16.

G. ANTHONY: The 16th is when I actually saw Casey and Caylee together. They were both leaving with backpacks and my daughter said she was going to work and she was taking Caylee to the nanny, to the babysitter.

And I know it was 10 minute to 1:00 because I was watching this food channel thing that I watch between noon and 1:00. So I`m positive. That I know for a dog gone fact.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So she actually told you on the 16th, I plan on staying at Zanny`s a late event.

G. ANTHONY: Yes. Most definitely.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mom starts calling -- apparently mom says that she had some form of a big deal going on at work, a convention. So they were staying at the Hard Rock Hotel.

G. ANTHONY: That`s what she told us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

G. ANTHONY: I mean, that`s what my wife reiterated to me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t have a conversation -- just your wife.

G. ANTHONY: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And then there was -- they had to move that to Busch Gardens, Tampa area?

G. ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that`s where Zanny got in her car accident?

G. ANTHONY: Supposedly Zanny got in this car accident. Casey was following at some distance behind her and Zanny got involved in this accident.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hospitalized at Tampa General.

G. ANTHONY: That`s what we`re told.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And treated for a concussion.

G. ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then the next day the ER nurse discovered a large laceration behind the ear and had to treat that.

G. ANTHONY: And kept her, I guess, an extra day or something, yes. If I remember correctly, yes.

GRACE: Throughout one all of the lies, one thing is consistent, Casey Anthony`s version of events doesn`t add up. The more she tells police, the more holes appear in her story.

In her written statement Anthony claims July 15, 12 p.m. she gets a call from her missing girl. The first time she`s heard Caylee`s voice in four weeks. This alleged call comes in on the same date grandmother Cindy reports Caylee missing.

DEP. APPLING WELLS, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Do you remember the phone call you were telling us about? Is that true?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

WELLS: Did you actually talk? What day was it that you talked to her?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yesterday.

WELLS: You remember what time of day?

CASEY ANTHONY: Around noon. It was from a private number.

WELLS: OK. What did she tell you? What did your daughter say to you?

CASEY ANTHONY: She said hi, mommy.

WELLS: And that`s it?

CASEY ANTHONY: And she started telling me a story talking to me about her shoes and books.

WELLS: It`s important that you tell me, I mean, maybe there was something in what she said that can help us figure out where she is. What did she say?

CASEY ANTHONY: I tried to ask her where she was and she just kept talking about the book that she`s been reading. We have videos of her reading the story and she`s telling me the story. And she`s telling me the story.

ALLEN: So she seemed happy and.

CASEY ANTHONY: Fine.

ALLEN: Seemed fine, seemed happy.

CASEY ANTHONY: She seemed perfectly fine. There was nothing in the background.

ALLEN: Telling you about a book. No sign of any type of stress at all?

CASEY ANTHONY: Not at all.

ALLEN: Great. That`s wonderful. Let me ask you a question. Your daughter hasn`t seen you in over a month, and she`s not.

CASEY ANTHONY: She was excited. She was excited to talk to me. But at the same time it`s crazy that she didn`t get upset when she talked me, which.

ALLEN: Yes.

CASEY ANTHONY: . had it been my mom, I know it would have been totally different.

ALLEN: Is that another thing, is that another thing that makes sense to you?

CASEY ANTHONY: She never gets upset when she talks to me, whether I haven`t seen her for an entire day or if I had to work late at night. I didn`t see her almost an entire day until the next morning.

GRACE: But cell phone records prove otherwise, revealing not a single call that could have come from little Caylee.

Remember Anthony says she dropped Caylee off with Zenaida Gonzalez on the stairwell there at Sawgrass Apartments June 9th? Police go so far as to check apartment surveillance video. No Casey Anthony. No little Caylee. No Zenaida Gonzalez.

When we come back, tot mom Casey Anthony`s web of lies.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MELICH: We even pulled surveillance video from an apartment complex and they have to keep this by law for several days, OK? And we`re not seeing you over there. We`re not seeing you there at all that day.

You think that we`re stupid and we`re not going to.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know you`re not stupid.

MELICH: . do all this stuff? OK. We`re not seeing you there. So now if -- you`re not there and you`re not being seen there and somebody`s already saying that you`re not there, everything else you`ve told us is a lie.

GRACE: Then, another twist. Anthony also says Caylee was kidnapped by the babysitter Zenaida At Jay Blanchard Park. This is a whole new story. Mom Casey`s new story is that Zenaida, Zenaida`s older sister Samantha, and Samantha`s three children, also at Jay Blanchard Park.

After they snatch little Caylee, Casey claims the group leaves a so-called script for Anthony to tell cops over a period of 30 days. Zenaida, her sister, and the three young children allegedly take off in a silver Ford with Caylee.

Anthony never mentioned this Jay Blanchard Park story in her written statement or during the police interrogation caught on tape. Still insisting little Caylee kidnapped from Sawgrass Apartment.

Coincidentally Jay Blanchard Park is the same location Casey Anthony claims she lost her Black Jack cell phone. But cell phone ping records reportedly place the young mom near the same park June 17th, just one day after Caylee`s last seen alive.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: It is universally accepted that the first 48 hours are critical when a child goes missing, every minute, every second counts, so why would a mom who claims her daughter`s kidnapped not call police? Or at least alert friends and family?

It doesn`t make sense. And the more Casey refuses to cooperate, the more suspicions grow.

Tonight, still the question. Where is Caylee?

Thank you for being with us, inviting us into your homes for this special NANCY GRACE INVESTIGATES, the first 24 hours of the Caylee Anthony investigation.

I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END


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« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2008, 08:04:53 AM »

NANCY GRACE

Casey Anthony Investigation, the First 30 Days

Aired November 28, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony is a 22-year-old mother. That`s a fact. This is her beautiful 2-year-old, Caylee. That`s also true. But the rest of the story is blurry at best, false at worst.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anthony claims she dropped her daughter off at this apartment on June 9, and when she came back, the baby-sitter was gone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everything she has told them so far has led nowhere.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Anthonys admit Casey has lied to them again and again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee`s mother, Casey, abandoned her white 1998 Pontiac in the parking lot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -tell what she knows about Caylee`s whereabouts and the little girl`s well-being.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sheriff`s deputies testified Casey Anthony`s car did smell of decomposition, and one of their dogs smelled human remains.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her own mother, locked up in jail, continues to keep her secrets locked up, as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Police desperately search for a beautiful 2-year- old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 23 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?

Tonight: What happened? How exactly did tot mom Casey Anthony stump veteran police? Every investigation starts at the beginning. Under 24- hour protection and ankle-monitoring devices, Casey Anthony does the exact reverse from what bounty hunter Leonard Padilla predicts. She claims she couldn`t help the search for her daughter when she was behind bars. Why? Because her jail conversations were being recorded and released, thus pushing the kidnapper further away from Orlando.

Well, Casey Anthony fools her family again, offering nothing other than info detectives say doesn`t pan out. Padilla regrets posting the bond. Casey Anthony ends up back behind bars on charges of stealing from a friend. But the big question: Where is 2-year-old Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE (voice-over): It immediately took over national headlines, 22- year-old mom Casey Anthony decides not to report her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee, had vanished for an entire month, not to family, friends, or especially police. Tot mom Casey Anthony carries on a normal life, dining out, shopping spree, even getting a brand-new tattoo "La Bella Vita," the beautiful life. Her live-in boyfriend and the roommates didn`t have a clue little Caylee had disappeared -- no emotion, no concern, not a single tear, nothing.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She wanted you to go to Fusian?

JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S FORMER FIANCE: Correct. Yes, sir. I declined. And I asked her -- well, first I asked her, Well, where`s Caylee? You know, You`re going to Fusian at this point. I knew that she`d had a falling out with her mother. How -- who`s watching Caylee? And that`s when she tells me Caylee is with the nanny at the beach.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: July 15, grandmother Cindy Anthony makes a frantic 911 call, Cindy Anthony desperate to find little Caylee, now missing for four long weeks.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: 911, what`s your emergency?

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: I called a little bit ago, the deputy sheriff. I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she`s been missing...

(CROSSTALK)

911 OPERATOR: OK. What is the address that you`re calling from?

CINDY ANTHONY: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl! My daughter finally admitted that the baby-sitter stole her. I need to find her.

911 OPERATOR: Your daughter admitted that the baby is where?

CINDY ANTHONY: The baby-sitter took her a month ago, that my daughter`s been looking for her. I told you my daughter was missing for a month. I just found her today, but I can`t find my granddaughter. She just admitted to me that she`s been trying to find her herself. There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today. And it smells like there`s been a dead body in it.

911 OPERATOR: OK, what is the 3-year-old`s name?

CINDY ANTHONY: Caylee, C-A-Y-L-E-E, Anthony.

911 OPERATOR: Caylee Anthony?

CINDY ANTHONY: Yes.

911 OPERATOR: How long has she been missing for?

CINDY ANTHONY: I have not seen her since the 7th of June.

911 OPERATOR: What is her date of birth?

CINDY ANTHONY: It`s 8-9-2000 -- oh, gosh, she`s 3 -- she`s -- 2005. Caylee`s missing! Caylee`s missing! Casey says Zanny took her a month ago! She`s been missing for a month.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Daughter Casey Anthony claims the tot`s kidnapped by the nanny, Zenaida Gonzalez, a nanny no one has ever met.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: Is your daughter there?

CINDY ANTHONY: I`m on the phone with them!

911 OPERATOR: Is your daughter there?

CINDY ANTHONY: Yes.

911 OPERATOR: Can I speak with her? Do you mind if I speak with her? Thank you.

CINDY ANTHONY: I called them two hours ago, and they haven`t gotten here. Casey finally admitted that Zanny took her a month ago (INAUDIBLE)

911 OPERATOR: Ma`am? Ma`am?

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey (INAUDIBLE) they want to talk to you. Answer their questions.

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: Hello?

911 OPERATOR: Hello?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

911 OPERATOR: Hi. Can you tell me what`s going on with this?

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m sorry?

911 OPERATOR: Can you tell me a little bit what`s going on?

CASEY ANTHONY: My daughter`s been missing for the last 31 days.

911 OPERATOR: And you know who has her?

CASEY ANTHONY: I know who has her. I`ve tried to contact her. I actually received a phone call today now from a number that is no longer in service. I did get to speak to my daughter for about a minute.

911 OPERATOR: OK. Did you guys call and report a vehicle stolen?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, my mom did.

911 OPERATOR: OK. So is it a vehicle stolen, too?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, this is my vehicle.

911 OPERATOR: What vehicle was stolen?

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s a `98 Pontiac Sunfire.

911 OPERATOR: OK. I have deputies on the way to you right now for that. But now your 3-year-old daughter is missing, Caylee Anthony?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

911 OPERATOR: White female?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, white female.

911 OPERATOR: Three years old, 8-9-2005 is the date of birth?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

911 OPERATOR: And you last saw her a month ago?

CASEY ANTHONY: Thirty-one days. It`s been 31 days.

911 OPERATOR: Who has her? Do you have a name?

CASEY ANTHONY: Her name is Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez.

911 OPERATOR: Who is that, a baby-sitter?

911 OPERATOR: She`s been my nanny for about a year-and-a-half, almost two years.

911 OPERATOR: Why are you calling now? Why didn`t you call 31 days ago?

CASEY ANTHONY: I`ve been looking for her and have gone through other resources to try to find her, which was stupid.

911 OPERATOR: OK. Can you give me the name of the nanny again? Like, spell it out for me?

CASEY ANTHONY: Zenaida, Z-E-N-A-I-D-A.

911 OPERATOR: Last name?

CASEY ANTHONY: Fernandez.

911 OPERATOR: Fernandez?

CASEY ANTHONY: Hyphen Gonzalez. I think the officers are here.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Orange County sheriffs begin investigating a missing child, but no Amber Alert, no police report of a kidnapping ever issued. Why? Because tot mom`s story doesn`t add up. Tot mom Casey Anthony`s car reeks of a dead body, discovered abandoned at a local check-cashing shop.

CPL. YURI MELICH, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Initially, on the 17th, when we had the car towed, our forensics technician met us downstairs. I actually went into the car to smell what the smell smelled like. Briefly, just before I came into the job (INAUDIBLE) I was a homicide detective for two years with Orange County sheriff`s office. And in my experience, the smell that I smelled inside that car was the smell of decomposition.

GRACE: And the so-called nanny who Casey Anthony accuses of kidnapping Caylee has never even heard of Caylee or Casey Anthony. The tot mom takes investigators on a scavenger hunt all over Orlando, but none of her so-called leads pan out. Her alleged job at Universal Studios, the nanny, her timeline, the cell phone records, none of it pans out. And she never explains why she refused to report Caylee missing for an entire month.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: The horrible thing that happened is -- this is the honest-to-God`s truth of everything that I`ve said, I do not know where she is. The last person that I saw her with is Zenaida. She`s the last person that I`ve seen my daughter with.

MELICH: We know that`s not the truth. That can`t be the truth because if that were the truth, everything you would have told us would have been on the money. The addresses you would have taken us would have been on the money. Everything else would have matched. If you had told us the truth, we wouldn`t be here at Universal Studios at a place that you`ve been fired since 2006, with you trying to explain to us, you know, you got an office and all that stuff.

Basically, if you`re trying to fabricate a story to kind of make something look a little bit better, now is your time to tell me. Are you telling me that this is the story you want to stick with?

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s the truth. It`s the story I`m going to stick with, yes.

MELICH: OK. In your own words -- let`s go back. Your daughter`s name is Caylee, C-A-Y-L-E-E?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

MELICH: Marie Anthony. She was born August 9?

CASEY ANTHONY: Two thousand five.

MELICH: OK. And according to your statement back on August 9 -- I`m sorry, back on June 9, 2008, you took Casey (SIC) to a baby-sitter`s house?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

MELICH: And who is this baby-sitter?

CASEY ANTHONY: Her name is Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: July 16, an arrest finally goes down, Casey Anthony officially charged with child neglect, and of course, lying to police. A whopping $500,000 bond is set. And defense attorney Jose Baez enters the scene.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: I can tell you that, based on my conversations with my client, what we ended up discovering based on these conversations was that there`s actually a very reasonable explanation for this whole delay in reporting the incident, or the kidnapping.

Unfortunately, she is under criminal charges at this time. I cannot disclose any of the specific discussions that I`ve had with my client that would possibly lead to a defense. The prosecution nor the police are not telling me everything they know, and I certainly don`t think that launching a proper defense would be disclosing every single thing that we know.

GRACE: When we come back, Casey Anthony tells police one lie after the next. Why?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: July 17, a team of investigators show up at the Anthony home. They`ve got a search warrant in hand.

CAPT. ANGELO NIEVES, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: At this point, we can`t talk about anything that was taken out of the house. We did return to the residence this morning with George Anthony and remove an item, some items in some of the bags. We`re not at liberty to discuss anything that was taken out of the residence, nor anything that would hinder or in any way hurt our investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We know they took some evidence from the house. Can you at least talk about the bags of evidence?

CINDY ANTHONY: Back away from the car, or we`ll walk back in and get the deputies to come back out, OK? We are late. We should have been out of here an hour ago. We`ve got to go to (INAUDIBLE) There`s no story, guys.

GRACE: They searched the back yard and pool with a fine-toothed comb, even removing little Caylee`s back yard playhouse.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GRUND: Caylee loved that playhouse. That was, like, her own little palace. She loved everything about it. She had her own little phone in there. She had a little kitchen set. I mean, she -- she absolutely and totally loved the playhouse. Every time I`d go outside and play with Caylee, any time I got the chance, right to the playhouse every time. She spent a lot of time out there with her grandparents and with Casey. And I believe that Casey -- if something would have happened to her, that would have been the first place that she would have put Caylee if she wanted to place Caylee`s body somewhere.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: On the scene, cadaver dogs, who hit in the tot mom`s back yard.

JASON FORGEY, DEPUTY SHERIFF, K9 UNIT: I deployed him on the whole back yard. The dog actually alerted in the -- I believe it`s the southeast corner, over near a play area. I continued to work the dog through there, took the dog out. I called another cadaver dog handler that I know that works for Osceola County sheriff`s office, and had her come in for a secondary search. With that dog, I told her that we had probed three areas and how long it had been since we had probed it and that we had kept people out of the back yard since then. And that was the generic thing that I gave her. I went with her and watched her dog also, who I`m very familiar with. And her dog actually alerted in the same spot that my dog, K9 Garris (ph), did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. To the odor of human decomposition.

FORGEY: Human decomposition, yes, ma`am.

GRACE: Cadaver dogs also hit on the tot mom`s Pontiac Sunfire.

FORGEY: Garris put his head inside the vehicle, looked straight towards the back seat. I had the tech work ahead of me and ventilate the trunk. Still in a counterclockwise manner, we came around to the trunk. Garris jumped up into the trunk, front paws, stuck his head in, backed back up, did the eye contact and moved to the right rear passenger side rear fender/trunk/taillight area and gave me a fine (ph) train (ph) on alert.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What does that mean?

FORGEY: He alerted to the odor of human decomposition.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the trunk of that car?

FORGEY: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: Then there`s the story told by tot mom Casey Anthony`s cell phone records.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DPTY. APPLING WELLS, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: ... was it because you got to go to work and she watching, would you call during the day, call her up during the day and say...

CASEY ANTHONY: I would always call and check on Caylee or send a text message, or if I was on line, just to make sure that everything was OK. She would occasionally call me just to let...

WELLS: Can you get on line here at work? Can you send text messages from work?

CASEY ANTHONY: I usually just use my phone.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Over 500 calls and text messages, but not a single call from the so-called nanny, Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez, and significantly, absolutely no record of the mystery phone call mom Casey claims she got from Caylee just two days earlier.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

WELLS: You remember the phone call you were telling us about?

CASEY ANTHONY: Uh-huh.

WELLS: Is that true?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.

WELLS: Did you actually talk with -- what day was it you talked to her?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yesterday.

WELLS: You remember what time of day?

CASEY ANTHONY: Around noon. It was from a private number.

WELLS: OK. And what`d she tell you ? What`d your daughter say to you?

CASEY ANTHONY: She said, Hi, Mommy.

WELLS: And that`s it?

CASEY ANTHONY: And she started to tell me a story, talking to me about her shoes and books.

WELLS: It`s important that you tell me. I mean, maybe there`s something in what she said that can help us figure out where she is. What did she say?

CASEY ANTHONY: I tried to ask her where she was, but she just kept talking about the book that she`s been reading. We have videos of her reading the story, and she was telling me the story...

(CROSSTALK)

SGT. JOHN ALLEN, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: So she seemed happy and (INAUDIBLE)

CASEY ANTHONY: Fine.

ALLEN: Seemed fine, seemed happy?

(CROSSTALK)

CASEY ANTHONY: She seemed perfectly fine. There was nothing in the background...

ALLEN: Telling you about a book, telling you -- no sign of any type stress at all?

CASEY ANTHONY: Not at all.

ALLEN: Great. That`s wonderful. Now, let me ask you a question. Your daughter hasn`t seen you in over a month, and she`s not -- she`s...

CASEY ANTHONY: She was excited. She was excited to talk to me. But at the same time, it`s crazy that she didn`t get upset when she talked to me, which had it been my mom, I know it would have been...

ALLEN: Is that another thing...

CASEY ANTHONY: ... totally different.

ALLEN: Is that another thing that makes sense to you?

CASEY ANTHONY: She never gets upset when she talks to me, whether I haven`t seen her for an entire day, or if I had to work late at night and I didn`t see him almost an entire day until the next morning.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: July 18, crime scene investigators show up at the Anthony home and leave with a shovel, a shovel mom Casey borrows from a neighbor at the time Caylee goes missing.

ALLEN: We did have a shovel. Once we put the information out to the public, we did have somebody call us and tell us that a shovel was borrowed on a day in close proximity to the being child missing. So we felt that this would be a good place to look.

GRACE: Behind bars, Casey Anthony lashes out at friends and family who ask for answers about little Caylee. Those heated exchanges caught on tape.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: Waste my call sitting in, oh, the jail.

CINDY ANTHONY: Whose fault is...

CASEY ANTHONY: Sorry?

CINDY ANTHONY: Whose fault is you sitting in the jail? You`re blaming me that you`re sitting in the jail?

CASEY ANTHONY: Not my fault.

CINDY ANTHONY: Blame yourself for telling lies. What do you mean it`s not your fault? What do you mean it`s not your fault, sweetheart? If you had told them the truth and not lied about everything they wouldn`t...

CASEY ANTHONY: Do me a favor. Just tell me what Tony`s number is. I don`t want to talk to you right now. Forget it.

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t have his number.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, get it from Lee because I know Lee`s at the house. I saw Mallory`s car was out front. It was just on the news. They were just live outside the house.

CINDY ANTHONY: I know they were.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well?

CINDY ANTHONY: Well?

CASEY ANTHONY: Can you get Tony`s number for me so I can call him?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Next, more on the first 24 hours of the Caylee Anthony investigation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: July 18, Casey Anthony takes on her mother Cindy, brother Lee and friend Christina.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey?

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom.

CINDY ANTHONY: Hey, sweetie.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, I just saw your nice little cameo on TV.

CINDY ANTHONY: Which one?

CASEY ANTHONY: What do you mean, which one?

CINDY ANTHONY: Which one? I did four different ones, and I don`t know -- I haven`t seen them all. I`ve only seen one or two so far.

CASEY ANTHONY: You don`t know what my involvement is in stuff?

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey...

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom?

CINDY ANTHONY: What?

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t know what your involvement is, sweetheart. You`re not telling me where she`s at.

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I don`t (DELETED) know where she`s at! Are you kidding me?

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, don`t waste your call to scream and holler at me.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: Hey.

CASEY ANTHONY: Hey. Can you give me Tony`s number?

LEE ANTHONY: I -- I can do that. I don`t know what real good it`s going to do you, at this point.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, I`d like to talk to him anyway.

LEE ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I called to talk to my mother, and it`s -- it`s a (DELETED) waste. Oh, and by the way, I don`t want any of you coming up here when I have my -- my first hearing for bond and everything else. Like, don`t even (DELETED) waste your time coming up here.

LEE ANTHONY: Do you think Caylee`s OK right now?

CASEY ANTHONY: My gut feeling? As mom asked me yesterday and (INAUDIBLE) they asked me last night, the psychologist asked me this morning, that I met with through the court, in my gut, she`s still OK and it still feels like she`s -- she`s close to home.

LEE ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: So I mean, that`s still my -- my best feeling at the moment. Again, if that changes, I mean, obviously, I`m going to reach out and say something immediately, but I know Mom will understand this better than anyone, that there`s that type of bond that you have with your kids...

LEE ANTHONY: Right.

CASEY ANTHONY: ... and it`s -- you know, it`s unexplainable, absolutely.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How come everybody`s saying that you`re not upset, that you`re not crying, that you show no caring of where Caylee is at all?

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I`m not sitting here (DELETED) crying every two seconds because I have to stay composed to talk to detectives, to make other phone calls, to do other things. I can`t sit here and be crying every two seconds like I want to. I can`t.

I know you`re on my side. I`m not trying to...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nobody`s saying anything bad about you. Your family is with you 100 percent.

CASEY ANTHONY: No, they`re not.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes...

CASEY ANTHONY: That`s (DELETED) because I just watched the (DELETED) news and heard everything that my mom said. Nobody in my own family is on my side.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, they are. Nobody has said...

CASEY ANTHONY: They just want Caylee back. That`s all they`re worried about right now is getting Caylee back. And you know what? That`s all I care about right now.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: When we come back, police say mom Casey Anthony refuses to cooperate in the search for her little girl.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: July 21, investigators show George and Cindy Anthony photos of little Caylee visiting her great grandfather. Photos from mom Casey`s laptop. They were taken June 15th, Father`s Day weekend.

The pictures confirm Caylee was seen after June 9th. The date the tot mom tells cops Caylee was kidnapped.

DEP. APPLING WELLS, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: You last saw her June the 9th?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: Ninth. Monday.

WELLS: Do you remember what you all did on June the 8th?

C. ANTHONY: It`s a Sunday.

WELLS: I can`t think of what I did. But anything significant?

C. ANTHONY: I think I might have been at Tony`s. I think my mom took Caylee up to see her parents in Mount Dora. She either took us there Saturday or that Sunday.

WELLS: What`s Tony`s?

C. ANTHONY: It`s my boyfriend`s apartment.

WELLS: Oh OK. So it was like a day visit?

C. ANTHONY: For my parents or for my mom, yes. When my mom goes up there even just by herself or with my dad or I go up there with her.

WELLS: Your baby went up there with your mom to see her parents?

C. ANTHONY: See her great grandparents.

WELLS: Yes.

GRACE: You are seeing the last known images of little Caylee. The same day the Anthonys see these stunning photos, the grandparents turn over toothbrushes, a hair brush, a comb, Caylee`s oral thermometer, all for DNA.

CARLOS PADILLA, DEPUTY SHERIFF, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: There was some items that they felt that was of interest to the case. However, we`re going to be able to discuss as to exactly what was removed.

But, as you noticed, Mr. Anthony went with the detectives over there, and again, indicative of the cooperation that the family is having with us.

GRACE: That evening at the Orange County Jail, cops executed a search warrant and collected DNA sample including hair from Casey Anthony.

July 22, bombshell evidence emerges. A bond hearing for Casey Anthony goes down.

JUDGE STAN STRICKLAND, ORANGE COUNTY CRIMINAL COURT: As to these charges, I would say it is substantial, in fact, basically, includes a confession from her that she`s lying about the investigation. Not a bit useful information (INAUDIBLE) Miss Anthony as to the whereabouts of her daughter. I would point out that the truth and Miss. Anthony are strangers.

GRACE: On the stand, grandparents George and Cindy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you need a moment?

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Yes. The first time I`ve seen Casey in a week. Go ahead. I`ll be all right. Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right?

CINDY ANTHONY: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you state your name and relationship to Casey Anthony?

CINDY ANTHONY: Cynthia M. Marie Anthony. I`m her mother.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

So what about after she`s been incarcerated? Have you had an opportunity to speak to her?

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: No, sir. I have not. This is the first time I`ve seen my daughter since then.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you a close family?

G. ANTHONY: I hope we are. I believe we are.

GRACE: Brother, Lee.

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: We connect on a level above anybody else. We love each other unconditionally. And we can tell each other things that we may not feel comfortable telling anyone else even our family members.

GRACE: And for the state, the lead detective.

CORPORAL YURI MELICH, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: There was a -- there was a very bad smell inside the car. After speaking to Casey extensively, after listening to all the stories, after trying to follow up all these leads, obviously, we started to having to look elsewhere and see if we could obtain information elsewhere.

And I remember that somebody had mentioned that there was a very bad odor in the car. So we asked Mr. And Mrs. Anthony if we can go ahead and seize the car, look for evidence inside of it. Mr. Anthony signed an affidavit allowing us to do so.

GRACE: July 22, police question the tot mom`s live-in, Tony Lazzaro.

ANTHONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: I got a call that to come pick her up that she ran out of gas. I asked her where she was and she said that she ran out of gas at that corner and that somebody helped her push her car into the Amscot. So then I went and picked her up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No child that night before?

LAZZARO: No child with her at all. She had some groceries and some clothes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where were the groceries from?

LAZZARO: They weren`t actually groceries from the store. It was from her house. She had some freezer pops and like some Tyson chicken or something to make for dinner that night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From grandma`s house?

LAZZARO: Yes, because it wasn`t in any bags. It just looked like normal plastic bags.

GRACE: Detectives learned about mom Casey`s lifestyle, her movements, her very thinking in the days and weeks leading up to and immediately following Caylee`s disappearance.

LAZZARO: She actually used to say that she didn`t -- that she was getting ready to not live at her house anymore with her child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where was she going to go?

LAZZARO: No particular place.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

LAZZARO: She was just looking to move out because she was 22 and wanting to get her own place.

GRACE: July 26th and 29th, brother Lee sends investigators e-mails to prove babysitter Zenaida Gonzalez does exist, and to prove Casey Anthony did hold down jobs. But senior execs at Kodak and Color Vision her mom Casey claims to work, confirm her stories don`t pan out.

She hasn`t worked at Kodak since 2005. Casey Anthony even goes as far as allegedly faking a Universal Studio e-mail address.

SGT. JOHN ALLEN, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: When the police do get involved, OK, when your parents involved the police, in an attempt to locate your child because they`re worried.

C. ANTHONY: Mm-hmm.

ALLEN: The first thing you do, OK, is you lied to the detective who`s job it is to try to find your daughter and get her back into safe hands, OK. You give him all kinds of bad addresses to look at, right? OK? So far I`m on track, correct?

C. ANTHONY: Mm-hmm.

ALLEN: OK. Then you bring us out to Universal where you say you work in an office, to try to help find stuff that will help us find your daughter. I`m on track so far, OK?

C. ANTHONY: Mm-hmm.

ALLEN: And we get here, we walk all the way down the hall to where you tell us you don`t really work here. You don`t have an office here, OK?

C. ANTHONY: Mm-hmm.

ALLEN: So far everything I`ve said is true, correct?

C. ANTHONY: Mm-hmm.

GRACE: According to police, the e-mail was bogus. Universal confirms there is no such person and says the e-mail address is a fake.

MELICH: I can tell you now that everything you told me is a lie. Everything that you`ve told me this morning from -- from Zanny, from the addresses, from Universal, from all these people that you`ve talked to including people that you never told me their names, and I found them and talked to them.

C. ANTHONY: Mm-hmm.

MELICH: You know, everything that you`ve told me this morning is a lie. Every single thing. That there`s one of two options right now. You need to tell me the truth and we can work with that.

C. ANTHONY: Mm-hmm.

MELICH: Or if we continue down this path and continue lying, I can tell you that when this snowball gets to the bottom of the hill, the only person who`s going to get hurt is you.

C. ANTHONY: Mm-hmm.

ALLEN: That`s not true. A lot of people around you get hurt.

MELICH: Your parents.

C. ANTHONY: A lot of people are hurting right now and.

ALLEN: And you know what? One person could put a stop to that.

C. ANTHONY: I`ve been trying.

GRACE: July 30, the Appeals Court, Daytona Beach denies the defense demand to lower tot mom`s $500,000 bond. Mom Casey stays put behind bars in a private cell.

July 31, detectives sit down with grandmother, Cindy, to go over a timeline surrounding Caylee`s disappearance.

CINDY ANTHONY: I talk to her every day. I talk to her every day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every day you talk to the baby or just.

CINDY ANTHONY: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No?

CINDY ANTHONY: I -- no. I didn`t -- I stopped talking to Caylee the six - - the last day I talked to Caylee was the 15th. I did not have a conversation with Caylee after that.

Now George had conversation with her in the morning because she was there in the morning, had breakfast, did the normal stuff.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No time here though?

CINDY ANTHONY: Nope. None at all.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

CINDY ANTHONY: And that was -- every time her and I would talk, Caylee wasn`t with her or something. You know there was something going on. That`s why I think she`s fabricated this whole story, so that she would justify to me why I couldn`t talk to Caylee, because she knew that if it wasn`t a reasonable thing, then I would say, "Where the hell are you and I`m coming to pick Caylee up because something`s wrong."

I lost my granddaughter, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee, we`re looking for -- Casey.

CINDY ANTHONY: I lost my granddaughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cindy, listen to me. Please, let me.

CINDY ANTHONY: You guys were so good the first four days. You guys were so good at coming to the house and everything, and then it stopped. No one came from missing persons. No one came from anything. We`re in the dark.

So we`re a grieving family, frustrated as heck because I didn`t even care where was at. I still don`t care where Casey`s at. All I want is Caylee back. Do you understand that?

GRACE: Same day, police commence a second interview with Casey`s former fiance, Jesse Grund, the man she accuses as little Caylee`s biological dad, a claim, like everything else, that turns out to be a lie.

JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: Do I believe it`s possible that someone, that Caylee did have a nanny and Casey lied to her enough about her family that she thinks that she`s protecting them right now? That she thinks she`s protecting Caylee? I don`t see why not.

We can all tell that from the last couple of years, Casey is a very effective liar. I think I`d use the word diabolical to describe the way she lies.

GRACE: The month of August kicks off with real life CSI, swarming the Anthony home, seizing multiple bags of evidence, including two gas cans tot mom allegedly stole from her own family.

G. ANTHONY: I called my wife and I said, hey, guess what happened to day? She said what? I said someone broke into our shed and stole the gas, the gas cans and she said, you`re kidding me. I said I`m not joking.

The reason why I`m bringing that very specifically is because I have thought or I have caught my daughter, I know she`s been taking gas and using it, because I can see that on her car, on the side of her car because I could see spill marks. When you spill gas on the car, it leaves a mark.

Many times I`ve confronted her about it, I said listen, if you`re using it, I don`t care. Just put it back. I don`t care.

While she`s in her room, she shouts out to me, oh by the way, I talked to mom and I understand something happened here at the house. I said in reference to? She says, oh the gas cans. I said oh yes, isn`t that something? Oh yes, Dad, that`s terrible.

So me being this investigator thing come though. I know my daughter`s not leveling with me and I know what she`s done in the past.

My gas cans were stolen on the 24th of June. I mean there`s a report about that. They just want to come in and there`s lining everything up. They`re doing a thorough investigation, but I said whatever you guys want to take from my house, you want to take the shingles off the roof, I don`t care. You do what you need to do to bring my granddaughter back.

GRACE: When we come back, mom Casey takes cops on a wild goose chase delaying the search for her little girl.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: The grandfather, George, tells police about an angry confrontation with mom, Casey, over the gas can, with mom, Casey, fighting to keep her own father far away from the trunk of her car.

G. ANTHONY: I said, hey, Case, you know in the back of the trunk of the car we got these metal wedges to put underneath the -- your wheel of the car if you jack your car up so it doesn`t move? I said hey I want to get that one out of your car because I`ve got one already in the garage.

I want to get that other one because I want to go ahead and rotate your mom`s tires over this weekend. In case you`re not home, I like to be able to do it. Oh Dad, I`ll get it out for you. Case, I`ve got an extra set of keys, I`ll go into the trunk and get it. So her and I got into a little verbal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She didn`t want you to go.

G. ANTHONY: She didn`t want me to go into the trunk of her car, so as I`m getting ready to go out through our inter-garage door in front of the big garage door, she just blows right past me and she said, Dad, I`ll get your thing. She said something very crude to me that I don`t appreciate.

So as I`m walking out the garage with her I`m walking at a pretty decent pace and she`s almost running out to her car. She said, Dad, I`ll get it. I know where it`s at. I said, Casey, I`m capable of reaching inside your trunk of your car and unbolting the thing because when I bolt stuff down I crank it down.

And she said, Dad, I`ll get it. As I`m walking, I just get pass the passenger rear taillight through her car, she throws open the trunk, she says here`s F-ing cans.

GRACE: August 4, George and Cindy sit down for more police interviews, and it`s all caught on video and audiotape.

CINDY ANTHONY: I think that Zanny at this point was a real person in the beginning But I think Zanny is now whoever`s watching Caylee. In my mind.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Transferred the responsibility?

CINDY ANTHONY: The name -- yes, so I think she refers to -- I believe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So do you think we`re spinning our wheels looking for a Zanny?

CINDY ANTHONY: I`m not sure. But my -- I have to two theories and I`ll share that with you. I think Zanny could either be Amy or Jesse at this point. It just seemed like -- from our perspective, all it seemed like from day one you guys were building a case against Casey as a murderer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We.

CINDY ANTHONY: She`s not a murderer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We.

CINDY ANTHONY: One thing I know is she loves that child.

G. ANTHONY: Ninety percent of the time or more, it was my wife watching -- our granddaughter. Very few times that I actually watched her by myself because of scheduling.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was almost more of a mother figure than Casey.

G. ANTHONY: Yes. I think it happened from the day she was born as a matter of fact. I don`t know if my wife shared that with you guys or not, but the day that she was born, after they got done cleaning my granddaughter up and stuff like that, who they hand her to was my wife and my daughter has always.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Harbored ill feelings?

G. ANTHONY: Yes, there`s been some toughness right there, yes. She`s thrown it at my wife`s face a few times, yes. I have to be honest. She has. She said seems like Caylee goes to you guys more than she does to me.

Well, it`s not that we`re trying to take her away from her, it`s just that we`re there. We`re constantly there with that little girl, you know? She sees us every day. Did she ever call my wife mommy? No. Did she ever call me daddy? No. It`s ways been Joe-Joe, grandpa, papa or something like that or.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You just play the strong parental figure.

G. ANTHONY: Absolutely. I mean it`s -- I want the best for that little girl.

GRACE: George Anthony`s timeline of events reveals the last time anyone interviewed by police saw little Caylee alive.

G. ANTHONY: The 16th is when I actually saw Casey and Caylee together. They were both leaving with backpacks and my daughter said she was going to work and she was taking Caylee to the nanny, to the babysitter.

And I know it was 10 minute to 1:00 because I was watching this food channel thing that I watch between noon and 1:00. So I`m positive. That I know for a dog gone fact.

GRACE: Cindy Anthony admits she takes clothes, pants, boots from tot mom`s car, and washes them, all before that frantic 911 call. She leads investigators back to the Anthony home, again. This time, CSI seizing pants, skirts, shirts, jeans, all belonging to mom Casey Anthony.

CAPTAIN ANGELO NIEVES, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPT.: The FBI is assisting us with the examination. And we`re using their lab in order to submit our evidence and our information.

They will return that information back to us when they`re ready, and obviously when they are ready and obviously when they`re -- when they`re done with the examination of those items.

We also have their federal law enforcement, FDLE, lab as well assisting in that effort and we will continue to monitor that information and progress as we received those results.

GRACE: After several jail house phone calls and videotapes released, Casey Anthony refuses all visits with family.

CINDY ANTHONY: It was very difficult for me not to go see her today. But I think it`s in Caylee`s best interests. I think it`s for her safety, because those recordings are -- you know, the videos are public, can be public record.

So it was very hard decision for me, but it`s all about Caylee. And it`s all about her safety. So as much as I wanted to go see Casey today, and visit with her, you know, I couldn`t.

GRACE: August 8, mom, Casey, rejects a visit from her own brother, Lee Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think your sister is being truthful?

L. ANTHONY: To the best of her ability right now, I do. Frankly, I wouldn`t still be here if I didn`t think she was trying to cooperate with me.

GRACE: August 9, not only does Casey Anthony refuse to cooperate in a search for Caylee from behind bars, it`s Caylee`s third birthday.

NIEVES: Well, again, this is something that she needs to consider. We`re talking -- we will continue to do everything we can. It is frustrating. Again, Casey is the key to this investigation. She knows what she did. She knows what time was the last time she saw the child, who she may have left the child with.

Our concern is to find Caylee, who`s going to be 3 years old on Saturday. That`s our concern. What we need to do is receive information from Casey and nothing but the truth. We need that information.

Caylee`s birthday is on Saturday, on the Saturday, the 9th. She deserves nothing less than to be home with her family.

GRACE: Her birthday cake, party balloons, and her favorite meal chili, all waiting. But August 9 comes and goes, little Caylee still missing.

G. ANTHONY: We have a small cake inside. We have the number 3 on it and we`re going to light it. This is a tough day for us. If you guys have children, or if you`re grandparents, you can understand. These days like today don`t come around very often. When they do, they mean more to you than anything.

CINDY ANTHONY: And I still know my granddaughter`s out there. And I know she`s going to come home to us. So, you know, she didn`t make it home by her birthday, but it`s just a day.

GRACE: Next, more on the desperate search for little Caylee.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: On the heels of her daughter`s birthday, Casey Anthony canceled the jail house visit with parents. The second time in three days she refuses to see family.

CINDY ANTHONY: I`d like to see her. But, you know, what am I going to say? If she wants to, you know, not see us, that`s her prerogative.

GRACE: The search intensifies for little Caylee while grandfather George drives streets and highways, with a Caylee billboard, hoping to generate tips in the little girl`s disappearance.

The Anthonys bring in their own PI, announcing they have Caylee`s alleged kidnappers under surveillance. Mom Casey claiming all the while she can`t talk about what really happened for fear of retaliation.

MELICH: Why didn`t you call prior to today?

C. ANTHONY: I think part of me was naive enough to think that I can handle this myself, which obviously I couldn`t. And I was scared that something would happen to her if I did notify the authorities or got the media involved, or my parents which I know would have done the same thing.

Just the far of the unknown, fear of the potential of Caylee getting hurt, of not seeing my daughter again.

GRACE: August 16, a Sacramento bounty hunter, Leonard Padilla, flies to Orlando to put up the $500,000 bond. Tot mom still not cooperating with police or family. Padilla believes he`ll be the one to convince her to talk. He even announces he`ll find Caylee alive in just one week.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: I believe that she made a mistake. I believe that her daughter was handed off to somebody. I believe that the daughter is alive.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you still estimate it will take a week to get her back?

PADILLA: A week from today.

GRACE: Early-morning hours, August 21, after 37 days in isolation, tot mom Casey Anthony walked free from the Orange County Jail. And still, no one any closer to finding Caylee.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Thank you for being with us, inviting all of us into your homes. For being with us on this special "Nancy Grace Investigates: The Caylee Anthony Investigation, the First 30 days."

I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/28/ng.01.html
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« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2008, 07:42:59 AM »

NANCY GRACE

Jennifer Hudson`s Brother-in-Law Arrested in Family Murders

Aired December 1, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Jane, there is breaking news tonight. As you mentioned, "American Idol" superstar Jennifer Hudson`s mother and brother murdered in their own home. Well, just hours ago, an arrest. We are live in children.
And Jane, in the search for a missing Florida girl, 3-year-old Caylee, bombshell documents just released. We discover highly incriminated new Google searches on the tot mom`s computer -- neck-breaking, shovels, death, household weapons and how to make chloroform. Also tonight, the tot mom`s text messages, Jane, all to her live-in, show her big concern -- what happens to her if Caylee is never found?

Breaking news tonight. "American Idol" superstar turned Oscar-winner devastated, Jennifer Hudson`s mother and brother brutally murdered in their own home. The "American Idol" star breaks the bank, offering a $100,000 reward for her 7-year-old nephew, kidnapped from the scene, only to learn the little boy confirmed dead. Murder weapon, a P20 Sig-Sauer .45-caliber discovered in a vacant lot just yards from the 7-year-old boy found dead. As we go to air, finally, an arrest for murder one goes down. Jennifer Hudson, "American Idol," American "Dreamgirl," American nightmare.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news in the murders of Oscar-winning actress Jennifer Hudson`s family. Police have arrested 27-year-old William Balfour in connection with the murders of Hudson`s mother, brother and 7- year-old nephew, Julian King. Balfour, who is Hudson`s brother-in-law, was already being held at Statesville (ph) prison for a technical parole violation and now is expected to be formally charged for the three deaths. The bodies of Hudson`s mother, Darnell Donerson, and brother, Jason Hudson, were found October 24 inside the family`s home. Seven-year-old Julian`s body was found shot to death three days later in an SUV on Chicago`s West Side.

MICHELLE DAVIS BALFOUR, MOTHER OF ACCUSED: She called him at 2:31. She talked to him. I called him from work at 5:30 this morning. I called my son. I texted my son. My son called us back. So if you committed a murder, why would you call back?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, police desperately searching for a beautiful 3- year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 24 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?

Bombshell. Over 700 pages of stunning new documents just released. They reveal new and highly incriminating Google searches on the tot mom`s computer, including neck breaking, shovels, household weapons, death, and lost (ph) numbers, also how to make the powerful and deadly sedative chloroform right there in your own home. We know significant amounts of that powerful chemical solution discovered by the FBI in mom Casey`s car trunk.

Also tonight, the tot mom`s text messages to her live-in. So her big concern? What happens to her if Caylee is never found? And the whole old pizza theory completely debunked tonight. It turns out there was no pizza in the tot mom`s trunk, after all this, just evidence of human decomposition, along with chloroform.

And tonight, grandmother Cindy goes to the feds, claiming her e-mail account has been hacked. And finally, a physical description of the so- called nanny the tot mom claims kidnapped little Caylee, this as new photos of little Caylee emerge. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shocking developments come out of newly-released documents in the case of missing toddler Casey (SIC) Anthony. In over 700 pages, investigators disclose the Anthony family computer was used to search phrases like neck-breaking, how to make chloroform, and making weapons out of household products. Deeper into the documents a text message conversation between Anthony and boyfriend Tony Lazzaro emerges. At the time, Caylee was publicly discovered missing, Anthony insisting she left Caylee with the nanny.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you`re worried that if we find that out, that people are going to look at you the wrong way?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned her.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Closing with, quote, "If they don`t find her, guess who gets blamed and spends an eternity in jail?"

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Well, whose fault is you sitting in the jail? Are you blaming me that you`re sitting in the jail?

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not my fault.

CINDY ANTHONY: Blame yourself for telling lies. What do you mean it`s not your fault?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: We put a plate down, and I gave (INAUDIBLE) I lost it. And I just -- I couldn`t sit at the table for a few moments.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight. An arrest for murder one finally goes down in the shooting deaths of Oscar winner "American Idol" star Jennifer Hudson`s mother, brother and 7-year-old little nephew.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An arrest made in the murders of Jennifer Hudson`s family. Police announce they have arrested Hudson`s brother-in-law, 27- year-old William Balfour, in connection with the murders. Hudson`s mother and brother were found shot to death inside the family home just over a month ago, and Hudson`s 7-year-old nephew, Julian King, was found murdered three days later inside an SUV. Balfour was transferred to Chicago police custody today, and is expected to be formally charged in the coming hours. Balfour is the estranged husband of Hudson`s sister, Julia. He was already being held in prison on a technical parole violation stemming from a 1999 attempted murder conviction.

BALFOUR: My son`s alibi was with one of his girlfriends, OK, one of the girls that he`s dating. My oldest son, which is Raymond (ph), his brother, has told me he was with Diana (ph) that night and he was with Kate (ph) in the morning. Now, that`s what he had told me. My son told me this, OK? If William did do this, right, no means am I going to sugarcoat anything. My son didn`t do it. I know my son didn`t do this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent, standing by there in Chicago. Susan, what`s the latest?

SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the latest is, as you just heard, Nancy, that the Chicago police did say that they have this arrest warrant now for William Balfour. They presented it right away today to the Illinois state jail, where he was locked up on this parole violation, alleged parole violation. They immediately transferred him to the Chicago PD lock-up. He has been locked up, Nancy, now since the murders, about a month-and-a-half, since October 24.

GRACE: Well, what do they have now they didn`t have at the very beginning?

ROESGEN: Well, you know, they haven`t told us exactly what they have, but we do know from his first parole hearing last month, just a couple of weeks ago, they brought up the various little charges, you know, that he didn`t talk to his parole officer, he didn`t do this, he didn`t do that, as to why they should keep him locked up in the Illinois state jail.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: That`s a smokescreen.

ROESGEN: Well, the kicker...

GRACE: It means absolutely nothing. Because I told you on day one, Susan Roesgen, in all my years as a prosecutor, you do not pick up a parolee because they miss a meeting. You know those jails are full, Susan, full of murderers, rapists, child molesters, drug dealers. You don`t want to take up a cot for somebody that missed an appointment, all right?

ROESGEN: Right.

GRACE: So there has to be more...

ROESGEN: Here`s the kicker.

GRACE: ... to it. But what is it?

ROESGEN: Well, they got the local prosecutor, someone from his office, to go there to this parole hearing and say that a girlfriend -- now, a girlfriend -- apparently, William Balfour had more than one -- that a girlfriend has said, Nancy, that she saw William Balfour with the gun that matched the .45 that was used in the murders. However, that girl herself did not come forward. It was simply what the prosecutor said there. And you have to wonder, Nancy, did this girl somehow become an instant expert on what a gun looks like?

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Hold on. Hold on. Susan, Susan, Susan, I couldn`t hear you. She said she saw what?

ROESGEN: She saw William Balfour with a gun that she claims matches the gun that was used in the murders. I assume the cops must have said, It was this gun, right? And she said, Right.

GRACE: OK, now, what`s your problem with her not coming forward? You very typically do not have witnesses at a parole hearing. Parole hearings, Susan Roesgen, are not like full-blown jury trials. They are more akin to grand jury hearings or bench trials, where the judge or the parole officers hear evidence. It`s not like a big trial. So what`s the problem with the prosecutor coming forward with that evidence, as opposed to the girlfriend?

ROESGEN: Because there`s something smelly about it.

GRACE: Really, what?

ROESGEN: Why didn`t you come forward with this a month-and-a-half ago? Well, he could have said anything. He could have said that...

GRACE: Well, typically...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... as a result of police work, such as going out and finding the girlfriend, and showing her the weapon. Things like that don`t happen overnight. It takes time to track her down. Even the mother, when I had her right here on this show, only knew some of the girlfriends` first names. It takes a while, Susan. And let me ask you this, Susan Roesgen. You think that is smelly? You think it`s more smelly than three dead bodies, Susan?

ROESGEN: Yes, I do because I was a victim of an armed robbery, Nancy...

GRACE: Really? So you think the girlfriend coming forward and identifying the gun is worse circumstances than the three dead bodies? Good to know. Susan...

ROESGEN: Who knows if she really did? Who knows if she really did? This isn`t a trial, Nancy, as you pointed out. It was just his word. And poor Balfour has not had a lawyer from day one. No representation, Nancy, to tell him to keep his mouth shut.

GRACE: Hold on. Did I just hear you say "poor Balfour?" Did I hear that?

ROESGEN: I don`t know. I said this guy.

GRACE: You said it.

ROESGEN: We have to roll it back.

GRACE: Actually, you said it.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I want to go to Kathy Chaney...

ROESGEN: I`m not sure they`ve got the right guy.

GRACE: ... from "The Chicago Defender," joining us. Kathy Chaney, Balfour arrested, murder one, in the triple slaying of "American Idol" superstar Jennifer Hudson`s family. What do we know is on that arrest warrant? Does it give away any of the facts that would lead to his arrest?

KATHY CHANEY, "CHICAGO DEFENDER": Actually, it does not. And it actually doesn`t have the charges yet. When I talked to the state`s attorneys office and the Chicago Police Department about 20 minutes ago, they said charges are pending and they have yet to determine a bond hearing. Usually, in Chicago, when a person is arrested, they have within 48 hours to charge them. So we can expect some formal charges within 48 hours.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. An arrest just going down in the triple slaying of "American Idol" superstar Jennifer Hudson`s family.

Let`s unleash the lawyers as we take your calls. Joining us tonight, Christine Grillo, prosecutor, Carmen St. George, defense attorney, Mickey Sherman, veteran trial lawyer and author of "How Can You Defend Those People?"

To Christine Grillo. Christine, it`s great to have you with us.

CHRISTINE GRILLO, PROSECUTOR: Thank you.

GRACE: First of all, when an arrest warrant goes down, the offense is named on the arrest warrant.

GRILLO: Yes. But the arrest warrant, as you know, Nancy is based on probable cause for arrest. So all they need is probable cause, so that`s basically all they`ll have to include on any kind of arrest warrant. And in doing that, then I think they`re doing everything properly. They have their evidence. They`re going to do it properly before the grand jury, and they`re going to get their charges in order.

GRACE: But what I`m -- my point is, Christine -- I`m not disagreeing with you, but my point is, in response to Kathy Chaney, who says charges haven`t come down yet so we don`t know why he was arrested, the reason he was arrested is on the arrest warrant. You can`t just arrest somebody and say, We`ll tell you why later.

So to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent there in Chicago. Susan, why was he arrested? It`s for murder, correct?

ROESGEN: Right. Three charges. Three counts.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chicago police found a body in the back of this stolen SUV, and confirmed it was Hudson`s nephew. It is a terrible blow for the big city star with home-town roots, the "Dreamgirl" who could not have dreamed of such personal tragedy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just a terribly sad story here. That makes three murders in Jennifer Hudson`s family. The woman, who is from Chicago, she`s considered a local girl, was working at a Burger King when she first auditioned for "American Idol." Now she`s become a big, big star, of course, but she said that she always came home to her family`s home, this place where her mother and brother and sister and the boy all lived.

JENNIFER HUDSON, SINGER/ACTRESS: I`ve always had a positive upbringing and positive people around me, you know? So that definitely helped out. And even when I feel down or feel like I don`t want to do this anymore, I can`t do it anymore, my mother was there to say, You know what? This is what you love to do. You have to hold onto that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: "American Idol" superstar turned Oscar-winner Jennifer Hudson`s family gunned down in their own home, mother, brother, even her 7- year-old little nephew, found dead. Tonight, finally, an arrest goes down.

Out to Tom O`Neil with "In Touch Weekly," the senior editor with the magazine. Tom, explain to me Balfour`s connection to Hudson.

TOM O`NEIL, "IN TOUCH WEEKLY": Well, she is married -- he is currently married to her sister, Julia, the mother of the little boy, Julian, who was slain.

GRACE: And Tom O`Neil, do you have any idea -- we`ve known he was picked up on a parole violation almost at the get-go. Now, this is what I know, Tom O`Neil. I know that around 7:00 AM the morning of the murders, his vehicle was spotted in the Hudsons` neighborhood. He did not live there. I also know that his vehicle was then abandoned about a mile-and-a- half away at a local public school. There was video of the car being abandoned, and a male leaving the car.

We also know that he owned a .45-caliber weapon. We also know that there had been domestic discord, arguments, between them, and threats. We also know that he has a prior, including attempted murder via carjacking, and that he is a possible of member of the Black Gang Disciples. That`s what I know.

Now, Tom, you`re the reporter. You tell me why you think this translates into an arrest warrant.

O`NEIL: Well, he has already confessed, as far as we know, that he was at the house at 7:00 AM that morning, having an argument with his estranged wife, Julia, over missed car payments. She had just come from her job, where she was a school bus driver, and found her wages were garnered. So we know that they were together at 7:00 AM. The gunfire was heard at 9:00 AM.

And what`s really significant here, Nancy, is this abandonment of the car around 12:30 that you mentioned. At that same time -- and we don`t know it`s him in that video, by the way. Somebody abandoned this car. At the same time, he is pegged, according to his phone records, as being across town, leaving some people to believe, unless the timestamp is wrong on that video, he had an accomplice.

So what`s significant about these charges is some people thought he merely was involved in two of these murders, not the little boy, but it appears as if they`re pinning all three deaths on him.

GRACE: Back to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent standing by there in Chicago, who refers to "poor Balfour," the man now arrested in a triple slaying, including the shooting death of a 7-year-old boy. So Roesgen, he places himself in the home at the murder scene the morning of the murders. And you`re still telling me you don`t see the connection why he`s arrested for murder?

ROESGEN: No. In fact, Nancy, I had never heard that. I really question that report. What I had heard and what you heard as well that night that we had the mother on, she said, Look, he was at Julia Hudson`s birthday party the night before the murders. They loved each other. OK, that`s the mom, but...

GRACE: Does this name ring a bell to you, Miss Roesgen, Scott and Laci Peterson? Remember the happy Christmas photo of them, and then she winds up dead in the San Francisco Bay? What, you believe the photo tells the whole story?

ROESGEN: Well, what I say, Nancy, is that I`m a typical cynical reporter, and I don`t believe they`ve got the goods on this guy. And remember that long rap record on Jason Hudson. In fact, today, Nancy, I talked to the people who keep his records. They don`t -- they are not even able to fax those records to me. Why? Because they say there`s too many of them, including felony aggravated use of a weapon, tampering with a vehicle, possession of marijuana, stealing cocaine.

This is the brother. Yes, he`s the victim. Yes, it`s terrible that he was murdered. But I just think there are too many loose ends and too many other possibilities to explain those murders.

GRACE: Oh, because maybe -- because he`s a bad guy, he can`t be murdered?

ROESGEN: Yes.

GRACE: I`ve dealt with that theory so many times in court, when defense attorneys would argue to a jury, This victim`s life was worth nothing, so you should acquit my client.

ROESGEN: Oh, no, no, no!

GRACE: It`s complete BS.

ROESGEN: What I mean is -- no...

GRACE: No, I know what you mean. Let`s unleash...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... Christine Grillo, prosecutor, Carmen St. George and Mickey Sherman. Mickey, weigh in.

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I would never argue that the victim`s life is worth nothing. I mean, you`ve got to be a moron to do that. And what your CNN reporter in the field is saying is -- all she`s doing is bringing up that annoying presumption of innocence, which I know gets a lot of people ticked off.

And also, you`re dealing with the fact that it`s such a hateful crime, the murder of a 7-year-old child (INAUDIBLE) I mean, there`s nothing worse than that. But try and just focus on the fact that he`s presumed innocent. And the other problem you`re having here is that we don`t know what the police have. But you know what? We`re not supposed to know what the police have. That`s why they`re the police.

GRACE: Carmen?

SHERMAN: We`re the public.

CARMEN ST. GEORGE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, you know, it`s like we say in the South. If he did this, he`s an egg-sucking dog. But at this point, it`s an investigation. He`s shown to have two alibis, as far as we can tell from his mother. So it`s...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa!

ST. GEORGE: ... still in the early stages.

GRACE: Hold on. Head spinning. Alibi from his mother?

ST. GEORGE: It does happen, Nancy.

GRACE: From his mother? You don`t think your mother, my mother, would get up on the stand and lie through their teeth? From his mother? That`s his alibi? You know what? Call me back when you`ve got a better alibi. Thank you, Carmen St. George.

Out to the lines. Tammy in Massachusetts. Hi, Tammy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. First of all, let`s start on a good note. I hope you had a good Thanksgiving with the beautiful babies.

GRACE: Let me tell you something, Ms. Tammy in Massachusetts. Last Thanksgiving, my daughter was in intensive care, and I saw her before our Thanksgiving lunch. And that whole night, we were not together until I went back to the hospital. So I can`t tell you what a blessed Thanksgiving I had. And thank you very much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I recall that. I recall the time you were having and we were all praying for you. The babies are beautiful.

Anyway, on to this case situation. Being the fact that we`re talking about a child -- and I`m trying not to get upset here -- how someone could have the audacity to call this person a poor person that can look in the eyes of a 7-year-old child, shoot them to death -- I`d just like to know, is there any particular special sentencing that would go above and beyond the fact that two adults were murdered here, but they might have had a chance to fight this person off? I`d like to know what kind of sentencing, whether it`s Balfour that did it or not, would receive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think he did have something to do with it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No! I don`t want to cuss, but no. He did not have anything to do with this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BALFOUR: My son`s alibi was with one of his girlfriends, OK, one of the girls that he`s dating. My oldest son, which is Raymond, his brother, had told me he was with Diana that night and he was with Kate in the morning. Now, that`s what he had told me. My son told me this, OK? If William did do this, right, in no means am I going to sugarcoat anything. My son didn`t do it. I know my son didn`t do this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, there`s the alibi, but it doesn`t actually cover, it sounds like, the time of the murder. We are taking your calls.

Back to Tammy in Massachusetts. You know, Tammy, Illinois does have the death penalty. However, former governor George Ryan put a moratorium on it. It`s been continued by Governor Rod Blagojevich. Killing a child, in many jurisdictions, under the age of 12, 12 or under, equals the death penalty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Great.

GRACE: So we can only hope that it will be sought in this case.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Great. Thank you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Did your son refuse to take a polygraph, do you know?

BALFOUR: No one knows. No one knows. No one knows. I don`t know. You don`t know. No one knows if he refused. But they refused one of his...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The FBI has asked us not to divulge all the details while it investigates, but someone got into Cindy Anthony`s e-mail account, and sent out at least four e-mails so they appear to come from her.

There were exchanges with prior spokesman Larry Garrison, her private investigator and the Kid Finders` PR person. Cindy texted me today that she had been locked out of her e-mail over the weekend after someone broke into her account.

But private investigator says it might be somehow tied to some of the protesters who`ve been in front of her house, and they think whoever did it might be from Ocala.

The Anthonys wouldn`t talk to us about it but their private investigator say they are distressed by it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: A lot of developments in the search for little Caylee.

Straight out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Kathi, what can you tell me about these new Google searches we`re learning about on tot mom`s computer?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: Well, going back to March, apparently, someone who was on Casey Anthony`s computer was researching how to make chloroform, the components that you could use to make chloroform such as alcohol, acetone peroxide.

GRACE: Yes, I knew about that.

BELICH: Yes, we had reported that earlier. What we did hear also about which perhaps is more disturbing, neck-breaking, shovel, household weapons, self-defense. There were lots of searches like that going on, on her computer going back to March, which would have been months before Caylee disappeared.

GRACE: Neck-breaking, household weapons, alcohol, acetone, peroxide, death.

And out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, also searching for Caylee, explain to me how lost numbers, the search -- you go on Google or Yahoo! or any of the search engines, and you plug in "lost numbers." Why is that so important, Leonard Padilla?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, SEARCHING FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: You`ve got me. I`ve talked to several people, including investigators with several law enforcement agencies.

GRACE: Well, look, I`ll just clue all of you in. And I`m just a lawyer.

PADILLA: OK.

GRACE: Don`t you remember? Way back at the get-go -- let`s go to Drew Petrimoulx.

Drew, remember when she kept claiming, my nanny called me and put Caylee on the phone, and I talked to her, and I`ve lost my Blackjack cell phone, and I was using a SIM card from this phone, I plugged it into that phone. Blah, blah, blah.

All about lost numbers. Lost cell phone. About how the nanny called her, but then she tried to call her back, and the line was no longer in service. A whole song and dance about why police couldn`t trace the nanny`s phone. Yes.

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: And she could never produce those numbers. You know, she said they were on one SIM card, but she couldn`t find that one. She had two different cell phones, and when it boiled down to it, she couldn`t produce any of the numbers that would be involved with the babysitter, Zenaida Gonzalez.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer who`s been on the story from the beginning, what can you tell me about these new -- newly-discovered Google and other searches on her computer?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, they were conducted in March, as Kathi pointed out, but this is also the time when she was -- somebody was searching for missing children`s Web sites, as well.

Now they also searched for inhalation. There were some searches down on size spots, drug libraries, instructables, for making weapons out of household products. Chloroform habit, how to make chloroform, and chloro 2, as well.

GRACE: Back to Drew Petrimoulx, what can you tell me about the text messages that we discovered today that were sent to her live-in, Tony Lazzaro?

PETRIMOULX: These were the text messages that were sent back and forth on the day that Casey was first arrested. Tony Lazzaro wants to know, why didn`t you tell me about Caylee? Casey admits that basically that she was a liar and a terrible mother, and that she gave the -- gave her daughter to a psycho and has really no explanation for where she is.

Tony Lazzaro is just basically baffled that someone that he trusted could betray him like this, and he is, you know, really concerned for someone that he cared about in Caylee.

GRACE: Well, I`ve been looking at all of the text messages, and one is particularly disturbing. This is where the tot mom writes to her live- in, Tony Lazzaro. This is July 16, 7:21 a.m. July 16. This is just after the police have been called in on the whole thing.

She writes, "If they don`t find her, guess who gets blamed and spends eternity in jail." Her big concern -- to Dr. Lillian Glass, psychologist and author, joining us from L.A., her big concern is what`s going to happen to her. And this is July 16.

LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "I KNOW WHAT YOU`RE THINKING": Absolutely. Yes, her concern is about look what`s going to happen to me. And it`s like, oh, poor me. If they don`t find her, putting the blame on the police, if they don`t find her, then poor me. That`s what`s going to happen to me.

So, again, you see this narcissism, this selfishness. You know, rear its head over and over again with her.

GRACE: And I noticed in this, Dr. Glass, that the boyfriend, Tony Lazzaro, keeps saying, where did you drop Caylee off? When did you last see her? And the tot mom keeps writing back, other things. She`s very vague in her answers. And it`s always about me, me, me. What`s going to happen to me if they don`t find Caylee? They. Like you said, it`s their fault that they don`t find Caylee and I`m going to get blamed for it.

This is July 16, and she is already talking about not finding Caylee. She knew they weren`t going to find Caylee.

GLASS: Exactly. Exactly. You`re so right. Again, it`s about me, me, me. And we hear this throughout the whole -- the whole situation with her. That`s all she talks about, and that`s all she is concerned about.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Karen in Nevada. Hi, Karen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, friend. Nancy, question, and then quick comment.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If Cindy Anthony really believed that Casey was innocent, and that Caylee were really alive, wouldn`t she have handed over that right hairbrush to say, OK, law enforcement, in your face. Now go find my granddaughter.

GRACE: What about it, Mickey Sherman? Why did she hand over the wrong hairbrush, when cops asked for Caylee`s hairbrush?

MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THOSE PEOPLE?": Well, I think she is kind of torn. I think she doesn`t want to incriminate her daughter.

GRACE: Well, if she thought she were still alive..

SHERMAN: Well.

GRACE: . that Casey -- tot mom Casey had done nothing.

SHERMAN: I think she.

GRACE: Why not hand over the hairbrush?

SHERMAN: She may think that because she wants to think that. I mean this is the grandmother. She`s kind of been victimized in this case, too, between all of the people who volunteered to help her are really just capitalizing on this whole tragedy, and her daughter who`s a total nut job.

Yet, in all this stuff that you just reported, there`s no confession. There`s no confession.

GRACE: That`s all you`ve got? She hasn`t confessed?

SHERMAN: Yes, she hasn`t.

GRACE: Mickey Sherman, you normally don`t have confessions in murder cases. I mean you actually got to.

SHERMAN: Well, when you got people`s text messages.

GRACE: . a mental that she has to confess.

SHERMAN: Yes, but when you`ve shifted through their underwear drawer and you got everything she`s written on the computers, her text messages, everyone in the world is informing on her, you would think you would come up with some statement that -- is inculpable.

GRACE: Well, you know what, talking about not finding Caylee way back at the beginning when the search was just started I find highly incriminating and looking up neck-breaking, household weapons, death, lost numbers, shovel on the Google search.

You know, she might as well have written it all down in a diary, Carmen St. George?

CARMEN ST. GEORGE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I think something that we have to keep in mind is that her traces on her phone show that she was nowhere near the house. So somebody else may have had access to the computer and made those searches but I think the evidence is going to show that.

GRACE: Carmen, she was living at the home.

ST. GEORGE: . her records were.

GRACE: She was living at the home when the searches were conducted.

ST. GEORGE: It doesn`t make a difference, Nancy. If we`re using all her phone records to actually show she`s pinged at a particular location, well, then let`s use it the same way to show the fact that.

GRACE: Her cell phone does not say she was somewhere else when these searches were done on the computer. That`s totally erroneous. That`s not what the pings show.

ST. GEORGE: Nancy, that`s the information that I have heard.

GRACE: Yes.

ST. GEORGE: That her records show that she was not near the computer at the home at that time.

GRACE: Natisha Lance, what do we know about that?

LANCE: Actually, these searches were done in March. And Carmen may be referring to June, when Casey was not living at the home at the time. But these searches were done in March when she was still living at home full time.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Norma in Georgia. Hi, Norma.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Excuse me. Got allergy. I am interested in where she was spending the two years before all this took place. And where was Caylee at that time? I can`t help but suspect some pornography.

GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx, wasn`t she living at home?

PETRIMOULX: She was living at home. I`m not exactly sure, two years -- what does she mean by two years before what?

GRACE: Two year`s before the death. Caylee is only two years when she went missing. So those two years, where was she? Where was she living?

PETRIMOULX: She was living at home. It was only right before she got arrested, the months before she got arrested that she moved out. She was living with friends and then eventually with her boyfriend, Tony Lazzaro.

GRACE: I mean, bottom line, this woman has basically never held down a job. Of course, she was living at home, parked right there on her parents` sofa.

Everybody, quickly to our case alert, the search for a Georgia woman vanishing into thin air. 22-year-old Laneeka Varnado. Last heard from November 24. She was at an event at Georgia International Convention Center. After a brief phone call with her dad, she disappears.

Police on the lookout for a `99 silver Mercedes SLK 230. Varnado`s 5`5", 105 pounds, black hair, brown eyes.

Take a look. If you have any information, please call Paulding County sheriff, 770-443-3010.

And tonight, our thoughts and prayers with my former "Court TV" colleague, FOX News Channel`s Kimberly Guilfoyle. Kimi`s mother passed away when she was a little girl. And I have just learned that her father, Tony Guilfoyle, passed away Thanksgiving.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: We walk through a particular gate where this public lot`s at. I got within three feet of my daughter`s car and the worst odor that you could possibly smell in this world. And I`ve smelled that odor before. It smelled -- like a decomposed body.

I am being very straight with you guys. I got a sick feeling for a second. Because the car, it was from me to you away from it, you can smell an odor and you don`t forget that odor, no matter what it is. You never, ever forget it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would agree with you. And you know this, because?

ANTHONY: Being deputy sheriff for all the years I was. I have investigated.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You had exposure to decomposing bodies?

ANTHONY: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, we now learn that the whole old pizza theory to explain the awful stench in tot mom`s car has been totally debunked.

I want to go to famed forensic scientist, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, joining us out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He is a paid consultant on the Anthony defense team.

Kobe, it`s great to see you again.

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: It`s a pleasure.

GRACE: This whole pizza theory has been used to explain the horrible stench in the car. With these documents just released, we learn there was no pizza. There was an empty box.

KOBILINSKY: Yes. I`ve said this before, Nancy. The idea that pizza would create that kind of smell is -- just doesn`t make any sense. And I`ve said this sounds to me like decomposition of either an animal or a human being, but not a pizza.

GRACE: You know, Dr. Kobilinsky, you and I go back a long way. We know the trial was set January 5th. Do you believe the trial will really go forward? I mean, we`re -- we`re heading in December in just a couple of hours.

And you, the expert, one of the main experts on the case, have not seen the evidence yet. I mean, it`s time for trial, essentially.

KOBILINSKY: I think you`re right, Nancy. I think it`s just silly to think that the defense will be able to put its case together in such a short period of time. You know, experts need to be gathered, and a lot of things have to be looked at and discussed. The trial will not be held in early January.

GRACE: Absolutely not. Because you, as an expert, need to see the evidence, review all the files, and then come up with how you want to pursue -- what theory you`re going to use.

And also, Kobe, I want to talk to you very quickly about the additional searches on tot mom`s computer we learned about tonight. Peroxide, acetone, alcohol. Can those ingredients be used to create home- made chloroform?

KOBILINSKY: Actually, no. Those ingredients.

GRACE: What are they?

KOBILINSKY: . by and of themselves, there`s an alcohol, an organic solvent -- those ingredients are not going to contribute to chloroform that is needed to make -- I`m sorry, the chlorine that is need to make chloroform. You need.

GRACE: I thought alcohol was necessary to make home-made chloroform.

KOBILINSKY: Well, yes, but you need something like bleach, sodium or potassium, hypochloride. Bleach would contribute to chlorine and then together with the alcohol or the acetone, you can form.

GRACE: So acetone is used.

KOBILINSKY: It can be.

GRACE: For chloroform.

KOBILINSKY: It can be a component.

GRACE: OK. Because first you said no.

KOBILINSKY: No, no, you need a -- source of chlorine to convert that acetone or ethanol into chloroform.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Cherie in Tennessee. Hi, Cherie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I watch you every night.

GRACE: Thank you. And thank you for calling.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was calling to see if she had not worked a job in almost two years, what would the point be in even having a nanny? I think with all the animosity towards her mother, with the relationship that she had with little Caylee, I think she did this because she knew it would hurt her the worst.

GRACE: What about it, Dr. Glass? I mean the whole point of having a nanny is to keep the children while you`re at work, and since she was never at work, that further debunks the theory that there was ever a nanny.

GLASS: Absolutely. And I really agree with what the caller had to say. It really makes a lot of sense. Because when you`re looking at the whole picture, she doesn`t need a nanny. She is not working.

And again, the fact that she and the mother had a severe argument and a severe fight the night before she left, according to the brother, Lee, speaks volumes.

GRACE: And speaking of severe fights, to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, it`s our understanding that fight -- we know more details about it now?

PETRIMOULX: Yes, it was a fight that happened on June 15th. Now, Lee Anthony allegedly, according to these newly-released documents, told Casey`s ex-fiance, Jesse Grund, that Cindy Anthony grabbed her by the neck and shook her on that day.

Neighbors also say that there was screaming and yelling coming from the house on that day. So it was a pretty bad fight that happened the day before she was last seen.

GRACE: And what was the fight about?

PETRIMOULX: That is not released in there. One thing that we could think that it might be about is all this money that she had apparently been stealing. We know she was stealing from her grandfather.

In these documents we even find out that she was also stealing from her grandmother, not to mention Caylee and her parents. So, you could think that it could be money.

GRACE: Yes, Caylee`s piggy bank.

To Kathi Belich with WFTV, now we learn that grandmother Cindy claims her computer has been hacked into? What`s going on down there?

BELICH: Well, what we -- I actually got four e-mails that appeared to have come from her on Friday. And when I looked at them, it just seemed to me, based on what they were, that they wouldn`t have been the kind of thing she would want me to have.

So I texted her on her phone number, and asked if she had sent me something. She said no, she hadn`t. And today we got a little more information. Now there is -- the family`s private investigator is looking into this as well.

They say she sent no e-mails over the weekend, she was not at her house, and they are saying that some of their information from Yahoo! indicates that perhaps it was somebody in Ocala, or with ties to Ocala, and they say that some of the protesters had ties to Ocala, so that`s what we know at this point.

GRACE: So apparently someone hacked into Cindy Anthony`s computer, then sent the media information off the computer about her not giving the FBI little Caylee`s hairbrush.

Very quickly, Natisha Lance, what can you tell me about this new composite sketch of Zenaida Gonzalez? Is it from the tot mom? Is she the one that gave this description?

LANCE: Yes. It does come from Casey Anthony. She described.

GRACE: And what`s the description.

LANCE: She describes Zenaida Gonzalez as 5`7", 145 pounds, with curly brown hair that had been straightened. Also she says that she had a lot of money.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter who first bonded tot mom out of jail came off the bond and is now leading one of the searches for little Caylee.

Leonard, in the documents she describes -- tot mom Zenaida, Zenaida Gonzales. What do you make of this description?

PADILLA: It doesn`t fit. One of the thing that she said was that she did not have any tattoos and Zenaida has got about a dozen tats. And also she`s only about 5`4" 160 pounds. She`s definitely not 5`7". And she`s 100 percent Puerto Rican.

GRACE: And very quickly to Donald Schweitzer, former detective with Santa Ana PD, why do you believe police did not publish that description of the nanny?

DONALD SCHWEITZER, FMR. DETECTIVE, SANTA ANA PD: Nancy, I don`t know why they didn`t. I think that they may have not wanted to send the public on a wild goose chase.

Also, they probably didn`t believe her. She would have had a lot more information about this person rather than a general description. She would have known where this person was from. We would have located her if there was a real nanny in this case.

GRACE: Donald Schweitzer, have you ever heard somebody give such a detailed yet false description?

SCHWEITZER: Yes. Many times.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots it stunk so bad. You know how hot it is. That smell was terrible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: During an FBI interrogation he spoke about the smell of death in his daughter`s car. When asked about it tonight he shied away.

G. ANTHONY: I am going to not even answer that at this point. I -- I believe my granddaughter`s still alive. I`m going to continue to believe that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to the lines, Chris in Montana, hi, Chris.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Your babies are just precious.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I know the police investigate all the sightings and everything about Caylee and everything. And I believe with the dogs finding the pants and poor little Caylee probably is dead.

But that picture that you guys showed last week in Florida, that mall, that little girl, have they checked that one out to make sure that it just kind of looks like Caylee and it`s not here?

GRACE: Yes, let`s see that photo, Liz. This is a recent sighting at a local Orlando mall.

To Drew Petrimoulx, police said they were not following up on the lead, not following up on the picture. What do we know?

PETRIMOULX: That`s right. They`re not following up on any more leads of live sightings of Caylee or searches for her out of state. They said that the FBI evidence and the DNA evidence shows that she`s dead and they refuse to chase these sightings around the country.

They`ve already used thousands and thousands of dollars of their resources to -- for the search and they`re not willing to search any more.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, e-mails between Cindy Anthony and her brother show they fought over what happened to Caylee. Do you know anything about their arguments?

PADILLA: Rick basically talked to one of our team members at one time. And we didn`t know if it was really a brother or not. But whoever the person was, he was very discouraged about the position Cindy was taking.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Marine Corporal Christian Cotner, 21, Waterbury, Connecticut, killed Iraq. Awarded the National Defense Service medal, Global war on Terrorism medal, Sea Service Deployment ribbon.

Loved the Yankees, adventure, bungee jumping, roller coasters, video games, remote-controlled airplanes. Leaves behind parents Karen and Graham, brother Eric.

Christian Cotner, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And a special thank you to Calvin`s Grill in Warner Robins, Georgia for hosting a huge family reunion and two hungry twins over the holidays.

Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

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« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2008, 09:35:52 AM »

NANCY GRACE

More Casey Anthony Jail House Tapes Released

Aired December 4, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 24 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell. In the last hours, as we go to air, secret video from behind bars just released. Tonight, tot mom Casey Anthony`s personal jailhouse visits from parents George and Cindy, brother Lee, their private conversations, or so they thought, grilling her with questions about little Caylee`s disappearance all caught on tape. We have the videos.

In her own words, we hear the tot mom, Casey Anthony`s, web of lies, admitting she has not shed a single tear behind bars, instead frittering away her time reading, napping, anything but thinking of Caylee, even laughing and joking. Mom Casey claims she`s protecting her family, but then goes on to give a detailed description of the alleged kidnapper, nanny Zenaida Gonzalez.

Grandparents George and Cindy test out motives for Caylee`s alleged kidnapping, concerned that drugs or the tot mom`s habitual stealing is to blame. The grandparents are desperate, even willing to go into protective custody to get little Caylee back. We learn, in her own words, playing the role of victim, tot mom blaming everybody, including police. After hours and hours of visits, not one time -- not one time -- is there a single legitimate discussion of the search for Caylee, just the tot mom dodging one question after the next. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: Do you think Zanny is acting by herself or did she have help?

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: I don`t know, Mom. I haven`t been able to talk to anybody. I don`t know. I`m hoping that if there`s people involved, there`s as many people that are dumb enough to open their mouth and say something as possible. But Mom, I have -- I have nothing to go off of at the moment. I don`t know.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: I really -- I don`t know. Jose and I go over this every time we talk.

CINDY ANTHONY: I know the pictures of Caylee in Zanny`s apartment. Is Zanny`s apartments the one with the drums?

CASEY ANTHONY: She had a drum set, yes.

CINDY ANTHONY: The one in the picture?

CASEY ANTHONY: I think there are even other pictures. I told Lee to look through everything.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK. Is that Zanny`s apartment? Because I know whose apartment it is. Is it Zanny`s apartment?

CASEY ANTHONY: That exact apartment, if that was Ricardo`s apartment, is set upon a lot like Zanny`s apartment.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK. Do we have any pictures of Zanny`s apartment?

CASEY ANTHONY: Lee and I already talked about this. I don`t know. It could on the desk at home. I don`t know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Hours, hours of secret jailhouse video recordings of the tot mom just released.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S BROTHER: Hey, gorgeous. How`re you doing?

CASEY ANTHONY: I look like hell!

LEE ANTHONY: Well, you know something? You really need to keep your spirit high through all this.

CASEY ANTHONY: I have. I haven`t been crying while I`ve been in here.

LEE ANTHONY: Well, you know something...

CASEY ANTHONY: I`ve been trying to read books and do other things to keep my mind off of stuff.

CINDY ANTHONY: Did Lee tell you how much the reward is to find Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

CINDY ANTHONY: Can you imagine?

CASEY ANTHONY: I haven`t heard anything of this, so...

CINDY ANTHONY: It`s over -- I think it`s $225,000.

CASEY ANTHONY: Jesus Christ. That`s half my bond.

CINDY ANTHONY: Well, a lot of people want that little girl found.

CASEY ANTHONY: Good, the more people the better. Everyone should want her back.

I`m being as strong as I can, considering the situation. It`s just hard. It`s just very hard. I just -- God, I just want to go home! Every day I wake up, I`m just hoping and praying that I get to go home. I just want to be with you guys. I just want to help find her because I feel a little hopeless. I feel a little helpless here, I mean, honestly, not really hopeless, but more helpless because I can`t do anything from where I`m at.

CINDY ANTHONY: I have to ask...

CASEY ANTHONY: Go ahead.

CINDY ANTHONY: Did Caylee ever stay at Tony`s?

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

CINDY ANTHONY: Are you sure?

CASEY ANTHONY: Positive. We hung out over there, but she`d never stayed, no.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK. Tony admitted to Lee that there`s drugs in his home. Could this be related to something like that?

CASEY ANTHONY: No. It`s not.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK. I just had to ask.

CASEY ANTHONY: No, his roommates smoke weed, but no.

(CROSSTALK)

CASEY ANTHONY: One, Caylee would never stay over there. And two, I wouldn`t have Caylee just stay at anybody`s house.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know you wouldn`t. That`s why I had to ask.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know. That`s fine.

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: This might be a tough thing to answer...

CASEY ANTHONY: No, go ahead.

GEORGE ANTHONY: But did you borrow something from anyone or remove it without their permission that Caylee might be being held for?

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I know that`s a tough question, sweetie, but I just need to ask you.

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not a tough question. I mean, Mom knows the stuff that I have taken from her. We discussed that, you know, on numerous occasions. And with Amy, you know, I mean, I feel guilty about that. I feel extremely guilty. But I was under a time of desperation.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Oh, well, what do you mean -- what do you mean by that, it was a time of desperation? I don`t understand.

CASEY ANTHONY: Like I said to you, and what I said to Mom, and Lee and I have spoken, and he advised me of something which is very smart. A written contact would be better than anything that`s going to be recorded since we can`t speak openly and freely in person.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I understand that. OK. Well, I don`t want to take time, then, going into anything else. And I just -- I want you to know, is there something that I can do for you, sweetie? I mean, I want you out of here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You are seeing jailhouse videos secretly recorded. They thought it was their personal conversations. Not so. Nothing behind bars is personal, is subject to any privacy conditions. You are seeing grillings, as best as they can, by George and Cindy Anthony of the tot mom, concerned that her habitual stealing or possibly even drugs are connected to little Caylee`s disappearance.

We are taking your calls live. Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150, why were these tapes released, Mark?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, they were released by jailhouse corrections officials, of course, here in Orange County, and they reveal a side of Casey Anthony that we had never seen before -- laughing, crying, sniffling, sighing a lot.

And when they ask her about Zenaida Gonzalez, she just gets snarky about what`s going on. And she denies a lot of things, like, for example, no drugs were involved with the disappearance of little Caylee. And really, she`s not helping herself or helping find little Caylee at all.

GRACE: Well, speaking of her sniffling -- let`s unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor in Atlanta. Peter Odom, defense attorney out of Atlanta, and Richard Herman, veteran trial lawyer out of New York.

Eleanor Dixon, if you heard her, like I did, state that she had not been crying for Caylee behind bars, every time she starts to sniffle, it`s about her own predicament. It`s never about little Caylee.

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Isn`t that interesting, Nancy? She`s more concerned with herself and the amount of her bond and all of that, rather than the search for Caylee. And if her parents even start asking her about it, she just gives up a lot of excuses.

GRACE: What about it, Richard Herman?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, these conversation are not privileged. They are going to be admissible in court, subject to a relevance objection. But you know, what are we proving so far by hearing this stuff? What are we proving? I don`t think they`re relevant at this point.

GRACE: Are you just pontificating, or do you really want to know what they prove?

HERMAN: Yes, I want to know what you think they prove.

GRACE: I`ll tell you what they prove. They prove that she`s not concerned in the least about her missing daughter.

HERMAN: That`s not true. She said...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: And you want to hear what else they prove...

HERMAN: She wants to come home to help find her.

GRACE: I`ll finish my sentence! They prove that she is not concerned about her daughter. She has not shed a single tear behind bars for her daughter. And if you listen to this stuff for hours and hours, as I have been doing all day long, you do not hear one legitimate conversation about the search for her daughter. Why? Because she knows she`s dead.

HERMAN: She wants to get out of there to help find her daughter, and she`s crying during the entire conversation.

GRACE: Oh, really? Richard Herman...

HERMAN: Yes, that`s what I heard.

GRACE: ... can you outline on just even one hand what she did when she got out to find her daughter? Listening!

HERMAN: I don`t know. Why don`t we get Padilla...

GRACE: OK!

HERMAN: Padilla can probably tell you what she did.

GRACE: Thanks! Peter Odom, weigh in.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I was just comparing her demeanor there in the jail visits with her demeanor when she was at the Club Fusian. This is one of the most narcissistic suspects ever.

GRACE: You are a defense attorney, Peter Odom? And while your observation is entirely accurate, what do you do with that at trial, Peter?

ODOM: I think you show that this is someone that is so narcissistic, Nancy, that it`s a pathology. And that`s where this case is headed, toward a mental defense.

GRACE: An illness? Bethany Marshall, I guess you`ve had just about a snoot full of people suggesting this woman is insane.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, maybe she`s a narcissist, but narcissists do know right from wrong, so that would not meet the mental -- the defense -- the insanity defense.

But what I see with these tapes is that Casey built this elaborate lie that someone took the baby. Now George and Cindy are very invested in the lie because the more they go into the lie, the more they can ward off the fact that their daughter might be homicidal. So they keep questioning her about little Caylee, but Casey`s not so interested in that lie anymore. That`s an old myth, an old story. She only cares about herself, her own tears. At one point, she even talks about restricting her calories and what she looks like. That`s all she really cares about.

GRACE: You know, I`m glad you mention that. Out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. I noticed that when they were telling her, with what excitement they could muster -- you know, George and Cindy Anthony reeling from the disappearance of Caylee -- they`re saying, Guess how much the reward is for her? And when she finds out it`s 250 grand, she goes, That`s half my bond.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: That`s half my bond.

GRACE: She wants them to use that money to get her out of jail? Is that what she`s suggesting?

BROOKS: Hey, yes, from what we heard about her, Nancy, it wouldn`t surprise me that it was the first thing that popped into her mind. What can that money go for towards me? Nancy, if her mouth is moving, Casey Anthony is lying.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: He wanted to know if you were eating regularly (INAUDIBLE)

CASEY ANTHONY: I ate cole slaw today. Tell him I ate cole slaw.

(LAUGHTER)

CINDY ANTHONY: Well, you`re probably eating a lot of things you never used to eat before because when you`re hungry, you`ll eat...

CASEY ANTHONY: I hated baloney. I`ve been eating baloney and cheese on occasion. Grits -- I don`t do grits at all. It`s terrible.

(LAUGHTER)

CINDY ANTHONY: Well, you know what? You`re going eat what`s in front of you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CINDY ANTHONY: We never really got a full description of Zanny. I know she`s got brown curly hair.

CASEY ANTHONY: Shoulder length. She wears it straight.

CINDY ANTHONY: It`s curly.

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s curly, but she also wears it straight. (INAUDIBLE) it`s called a straightener. She`s the one that gave me my straightener.

CINDY ANTHONY: That`s true. OK. How tall is she?

CASEY ANTHONY: About 5, 7-ish. She`s, like, maybe an inch or two shorter than Dad, so 5-6, 5-7, very thin, maybe a little bit more meat than me, about 140-ish, fairly tan, brown eyes, no tattoos that I`ve ever seen, that I know of.

CINDY ANTHONY: Well, I would think that if anybody around her knew her, they would have come forward by now.

CASEY ANTHONY: That`s what I was thinking. That`s even what I had told Jose. If it was anyone that especially has known me that knows Caylee, that at least knows of us...

CINDY ANTHONY: Did anybody ask you to describe her, and they did a composite drawing of her?

CASEY ANTHONY: Not once. And when they went and interviewed that girl down in Kissimmee, they never showed me a picture of her. They never searched...

CINDY ANTHONY: OK, but they told us that...

(CROSSTALK)

CINDY ANTHONY: Well, they told us that you couldn`t pull her out of a line-up.

CASEY ANTHONY: They`re full of (DELETED) I had told them multiple times, Find a sketch artist, show me pictures, show me something. I can point her out to you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You are seeing just-released jailhouse recordings of what they thought were private conversations, where George and Cindy Anthony, the grandparents, grill tot mom Casey Anthony about the disappearance of her 2- year-old daughter, little Caylee. Every question is dodged. And you see the Anthonys basically handling her with kid gloves.

We are taking your calls live. We`ll get right to that, but first, more of these stunning conversations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, God. My heart is aching because I just want to be back with our family. It`s in my gut every day stronger and stronger, I know we`re going see Caylee. I know she`s coming home. I can feel it. I want you to know that.

CINDY ANTHONY: I know.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know. I want her home now.

CINDY ANTHONY: I want her home so we can celebrate her third birthday...

CASEY ANTHONY: I know.

CINDY ANTHONY: ... and be a family again.

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes. Every day, I can feel it, Mom. I know that I`m going to be home with you guys. I know she`s going to be home with us. Everyone just has to keep that faith because mine`s growing stronger every day.

I`m being as strong as I can, considering the situation. It`s just hard. It`s just very hard.

CINDY ANTHONY: I know. (INAUDIBLE)

CASEY ANTHONY: God, I just want to go home! Every day I wake up, I`m just hoping and praying that I get to go home. I just want to be with you guys. I just want to help find her because I feel a little hopeless. I feel a little helpless here. I mean, honestly, not really hopeless, but more helpless because I can`t do anything from where I`m at.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: From where you`re at. OK. Out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter from Sacramento, who first posted the tot mom`s bail, came off the bail and is now searching for little Caylee. Leonard, from where she`s at -- explain to me -- you were in the home. What did she do when she finally got out?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Nancy, I`ve got to confess to you that she actually told us -- right now today, when I was watching these tapes, I went back through some notes. She told us, Zenaida held me down while Samantha took the baby from me, and with the other two children, went to the Ford Focus. I asked her, I says, Why would Zenaida do that to you? This is before I blew up and became stupid. She says, In retaliation. And why would she do that to retaliate? She said. Oh, probably for some money that I owed her.

She mentioned, as I have said before, Blanchard Park, Blanchard Park, Blanchard Park, told us exactly where. She subsequently told Rob, she subsequently told Tracy. There is no doubt in my mind, and even less in Tracy and Rob`s mind today after watching these videos, that that child went into the Little Econ River and she subsequently went back and hung a cross in that tree.

And we felt so strong about it that we called Nick Savage, the FBI agent, and we said, You`ve got the two beads that were found at the base of the tree. Go ask Cindy to look in her room for the rest of the beads and match up the milling from the machines that make those beads and you`ll find that they`re identical.

She told us. But I was so upset that she was running the Zenaida thing that I just blew up, and then she got upset and told me to get out of her house. That`s where she put the baby. And right now in one of these tapes, you`ll see where she says, You guys were the greatest grandparents, and then she catches herself and says, Are the greatest grandparents.

GRACE: Take a listen to more of these stunning jailhouse videotapes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: Silver Ford Focus 2008, four-door. The windows aren`t tinted. It`s very basic. There`s a pink floral carseat on the right passenger side, in the back seat. That`s the car seat that she`s had for Caylee, and that`s why Caylee doesn`t...

CINDY ANTHONY: None of her stuff is missing from the house because she`s got everything.

CASEY ANTHONY: She has everything. She`s always had shoes, socks, diapers, clothes, toys, I mean, you name it.

CINDY ANTHONY: Who else did she ever nanny for before besides Jeff, that you`re aware of?

CASEY ANTHONY: No one that I know of. He`s the only person that I knew of.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know she`d watched her nephews and her niece. Outside of that, I don`t know if there is anyone else.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK. And she definitely watched Anabelle (ph).

CASEY ANTHONY: Definitely watched Anabelle on several occasions.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Is there any...

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, we`re not talking. Can`t.

CINDY ANTHONY: No, no, no, no.

CINDY ANTHONY: Me, no, no. I know. It`s hard. I`m just wondering if there`s anything else you want me to tell Caylee because everybody -- you know, I always get an opportunity to speak to the media. Is there anything you want me to say to Caylee (INAUDIBLE) or anything?

CASEY ANTHONY: Just tell her that I love her and that I miss her. I mean, that`s the constant.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Just released in the last hours, hours of secretly-recorded phone calls between the tot mom and her parents, little Caylee`s grandparents, in which they asked her question after question regarding little Caylee`s disappearance.

To Eleanor Dixon, prosecutor in the Atlanta jurisdiction, who specializes in crimes on women and children. In this case, there`s no privacy behind bars. Explain.

DIXON: Well, exactly, Nancy. There`s no expectation of privacy. It`s a public place, if you will. And in many jails, they have signs up that say, Your conversations are monitored. When you call somebody on the telephone, there`s a recording that comes on saying, This call is being monitored. So no expectation of privacy.

GRACE: Let`s go to the defense attorneys, Peter Odom, veteran defense attorney, Atlanta, Richard Herman, famed defense attorney out of New York. Peter Odom, what do you do when your client, who is charged in the murder of her then 2-year-old little girl, is joking behind bars that she`s eating cole slaw with yucky mayo in it?

ODOM: Well, the first thing we do, when we meet with them, Nancy, is to tell them...

GRACE: Try to suppress it?

ODOM: Well, the first we do is to tell them, Please don`t be...

GRACE: Shut the hey up?

ODOM: ... talking about any of these things at the jail because we know they`re going to be recorded and probably used against them.

GRACE: Herman?

ODOM: The second thing we do is to make (INAUDIBLE) for relevance.

HERMAN: How about the rule of completeness, the entire tape?

GRACE: Oh, you want the whole thing? All right.

HERMAN: Yes.

GRACE: Be careful what you ask for, for you will surely get it, Richard Herman.

HERMAN: I hope so.

GRACE: You, too, Odom!

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: We forgive anything that you`ve said.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: Hold on. Can we turn the volume down? You can probably hear it. My head`s going to explode. I haven`t said anything, don`t worry. No one has said anything for me of the ways that I love my daughter. That I -- I want her safety and that she and the rest of our family is my only concern.

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: I`m writing this down. (INAUDIBLE)

C. ANTHONY: All I want is to see her again, to hear her laugh, to see her smile and to just be with our family. Nothing else matters to me at this point.

L. ANTHONY: We all feel that way. Every one of us. OK, Case?

C. ANTHONY: I know. But again, they`ve been hearing that from you, from her uncle, from her grandparents, not from -- her mother.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: You are hearing just-released recorded conversations from behind bars, conversations the Anthonys apparently thought were private. They`re not. Nothing behind bars is private.

We are taking your calls live out to Natalie in Florida. Hi, Natalie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t believe that no one has thought of this. For a person who hasn`t worked for two years.

GRACE: How does she afford a nanny?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pardon me?

GRACE: Are you going to say how can she afford a nanny?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m sorry?

GRACE: Were you about to say how can she afford a nanny?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. No. I have another question.

GRACE: I`m not clairvoyant. I`m sorry. Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If she hasn`t worked for two years and she steals from her family and friends, if the father of Caylee is dead, wouldn`t she be wanting to prove he`s dead for the Social Security benefits Caylee would be entitled to?

GRACE: Natalie, what do you do for a living? Excuse me?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A little bit of everything. I need to be a private detective.

GRACE: No. You should be a lawyer.

What about it, Richard Herman? What do you have to say to Natalie in Florida. You know, I mean, she`s stealing gas her parent`s car. If this father is dead why not on the gravy train of the government?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I mean, what I can say? She should be. She should have been doing that.

GRACE: I don`t know. I`m asking you. Don`t ask me back. You tell me.

HERMAN: I don`t know what her motives were. Maybe her parents were supplementing her income. Maybe her boyfriends were giving her money. I don`t know how she was earning income during those two years. And it`s irrelevant to this case.

GRACE: No. It`s not irrelevant. It`s just another one of her lies.

HERMAN: Has nothing to do with this first-degree murder.

GRACE: You know, Peter Odom, a thought and Natalie sparked the thought. How can her parents actually believe she had a nanny if she was stealing money from them to go buy a push-up bra at Target?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, it`s pretty typical that you see with the parents of defendants, they`re in denial. They`re not going to believe anything bad about their daughter and we see that every day in criminal cases.

GRACE: You know what, you`re right about that.

What about it, Dr. Bethany?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, that`s why I talked earlier about the parents stepping into the lie. They want to believe the lie so they can delude themselves that their daughter is OK.

And another lie is that she`s actually concerned about her daughter. She seems quite resentful when little Caylee is mentioned. She throws out gratuitous things like, oh I want to see my daughter and I want her to be found.

But she sounds quite resentful and all that giggling and laughing? She`s giggling because she has her parent`s attention all to herself which I believe could have been the motive for homicide if she did kill her daughter that she wanted her parents to herself. She didn`t want to share her parents with her little child.

GRACE: Out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, Drew, it dawned on me while I was listening to the tot mom weave another yarn about the nanny that kidnapped little Caylee, she told them that the nanny, Zenaida Gonzalez, had a complete wardrobe for Caylee, had a car seat for her, had brushes and combs, everything the little girl would need, but yet the grandparents never noticed that Caylee`s clothing and her possessions, her toys, were missing?

That they were with the nanny? They never met the nanny? Who bought all this stuff? Tot mom didn`t have a job.

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: No, she didn`t have a job. And, you know, there`s really no record of Zenaida throughout these interviews. They`re asking her for information. How can we get in touch with Zenaida? Where -- you know where does she live? Who can we contact?

And the whole time Casey is just basically giving them a runaround. She doesn`t have any numbers. It`s just all this confusion. There`s never anything concrete throughout the -- almost six hours of tape there`s nothing through the entire time that can be concrete evidence that can be actually used to try to locate Zenaida or Caylee.

GRACE: To Dr. Michael Arnall, a board-certified forensic pathologist. Dr. Arnall joining us from Denver.

Doctor, Tim Miller from EquuSearch just made a stunning announcement that he does not believe Caylee or her remains are findable. Why?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: I agree. After six months the bones, if they`re on the surface, are likely completely skeletonized. It is likely that small animals have scattered the bones. The bones have likely sunk in to the soft soil.

If some small animal or if an alligator has eaten part of the remains that would explain why no remains have ever been found despite extensive searches.

GRACE: You know, Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, it ain`t over yet. I recall a case in my old jurisdiction where the body was proven with one glass eyeball many years later.

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: You know, Nancy, you know, when it comes to homicide investigations, you never say never. You know? And there is -- you can go years and years, someone may come across a piece of bone. They can prove the DNA, but again, in this case, you can never say never, Nancy.

GRACE: Take a listen to more of the secretly recorded jailhouse conversations between tot mom and her family.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY: How come she never got a chance to get the car? It doesn`t make sense.

CASEY: Mom, because this is recorded and I don`t know who`s going to see things and who`s going to misconstrue whatever else, like I said, there`s things that I directly need to say to each of you.

CINDY: OK. I trust that.

CASEY: But Lee and I are finding other means to do.

CINDY: Is there a Tia Torres in our neighborhood? There`s a Tia Torres.

CASEY: Tia Torres?

CINDY: Yes.

CASEY: I don`t know who that is. I don`t know who a lot of the people are that live in our neighborhood outside of.

CINDY: Well, she -- I forget who she told, but she told someone that I was hospitalized recently with a mental condition.

CASEY: Wow.

CINDY: This is serious.

CASEY: I`m glad I`m not on the outside. I`m really glad I`m not out there.

CINDY: You`d be surprised the crap that come in, you know, that people say.

CASEY: I`m not surprised at the crap that`s coming up. That`s another reason I don`t want to hear any of this media bull (EXPLETIVE DELETED). If people want to have their face on the news, want to have their two seconds of fame, I never once wanted to be on TV and to have anything, period, let alone be the worst catastrophic thing that can happen not only to myself but to our family.

L. ANTHONY: Obviously Jose works for you, OK? Anything that you say to Jose is supposed to be attorney/client privilege and supposed to be in confidence.

CASEY: Yes.

L. ANTHONY: How that works is even if you ask him to reach out to the family, if you ask him to reach out to law enforcement, if you give him a later and ask him to do it, he is not obligated to do that. He will weigh -- he will make a decision if it`s in his or your best interest.

CASEY: Yes.

L. ANTHONY: It is his best interest, too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to the lines, Marie in Pennsylvania, hi, Marie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I was wondering, has the grandmother ever said to anybody that she blames herself because of the big fight they had that night, she`s the one who set Casey off and now she`s responsible for Caylee`s missing?

GRACE: To Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150, what about that and what can you tell me about that huge argument that allegedly happened the night before Caylee went missing?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, I don`t think Cindy blames herself for -- for maybe pushing Casey over the edge. What happened on the night of -- what we believe is June 15th is that Casey and Cindy got into a verbal fisticuffs in the house and in an e-mail to -- from Lee Anthony to Jesse Grund, it was apparent that Cindy eventually grabbed Casey by the neck and shook her around a little bit.

But I don`t think that was it. I think there`s -- this thing has been simmering for a long time and it just exploded that day.

GRACE: What, specifically, was the argument about, Mark?

WILLIAMS: From what we gather, probably what Casey has been doing the past couple of weeks and her -- possibly her spending habits.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY: I`m protecting our family, yes. Not from anything that I`ve that I`ve done.

CINDY: Someone`s threatening us? Is someone threatening us?

CASEY: Mom, just leave it at that, please.

CINDY: OK.

CASEY: For right now, just leave it at that.

CINDY: OK. I trust you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY: What message do you want me to give to Zanny and to Caylee? What do you want me to tell Zanny?

CASEY: That she needs to return Caylee.

CINDY: What do you think her reasons are?

CASEY: Mom, I don`t know.

CINDY: OK.

CASEY: I forgive her. My only concern is that Caylee comes back to us and that she`s smiling and she`s happy and that she`s, that`s she`s OK.

CINDY: What do you want me to tell Caylee?

CASEY: That mommy loves her very much, and she`s the most important thing in this entire world to me and to be brave.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I miss you, Sweetie.

CASEY: I know that. I miss you, too.

G. ANTHONY: I wish I could have been a better dad, a better grandfather, you know?

CASEY: You`ve been a great dad and you`ve been the best grandfather. Don`t for a second think otherwise. You and mom have been the best grandparents. Caylee`s been so lucky.

G. ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY: Caylee is so lucky to have both of you. I can`t even put into words how glad I am that she`s had both of you and that she still has both of you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know, for somebody who`s apparently grieving or says she`s grieving over her kidnapped daughter, this woman is very focused on her own stomach. Snickers bars, strawberry bars, pretzel crisps, pork skins, let`s see what else here. Beauty products, Chex Mix peanut butter, mouth wash, lemonade.

You know, she`s doing a lot of ordering off her menu.

To Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor, I`ve never heard of a jail with basically take-out or room service like that. Have you seen that list? There`s crab meat, shrimp cocktail. You name it. It`s like being at the Hilton Hotel.

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: And to think, Nancy, she didn`t even have to put any money on her account. She had people donate money to that he account so she could buy these things.

GRACE: Now, Dr. Bethany, I`m sure that the defenses will say there`s no playbook for grieving, but I recall grieving after someone dear to me had been murdered and the thought of food, the smell of food turned my stomach.

Just the thought of eating and I can even remember many, many weeks later the first thing I finally ingested was a glass of orange juice.

MARSHALL: And the.

GRACE: It was a week had passed before I felt like eating.

MARSHALL: And the reason that is -- the reason that is, Nancy, is that when you grieve the world is an empty place. You lose your appetite for it and all you want is the lost loved one and because of that all you can do is reminisce about the lost ones, where they are, what are they doing? What are they talking about?

GRACE: Well, could you then explain to me, Dr. Bethany, the Chex Mix, the cheese crackers, the jalapeno dip, the bold and zesty -- I mean it goes on and on. Cheddar popcorn, tortilla strips, pretzel crisps, tuna, beef jerky, pork skins.

I mean, this woman is an eating machine. Isn`t she supposed to be grieving?

MARSHALL: Well, she`s a texting machine, too. She does a lot of things, but, I mean, quite frankly, she`s not grieving. Again, when you grieve, you reminisce. You think about the lost loved ones. There is not one reminiscence in this whole six hours of tape about little Caylee.

She only mentions her resentfully and all that eating, it`s just about self-gratification. All that energy is focused on herself and her parents are colluding with her. They treat her like a frightened little kitten rather than a girl that`s really as tough as nails.

GRACE: And you know, Leonard Padilla, you were in the home after her first or initial release from jail, and you said that`s how they treated her in the home as well, with kid gloves like she was the prom queen in the kitchen.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPING TO SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: That`s right. Kid gloves and like the good doctor there just said, you know, she is as tough as nails. But here`s the one thing that I`m willing to say and we were talking about it today, if she will come forth and tell us and we receive proof of where the body is, we`ll get bail set for her and get her back out of jail pending her trial. But she has to be honest with us.

GRACE: Well, if the state would go ahead and get off this duff and announce they`re seeking the death penalty, not so fast, Padilla.

Back to -- let`s go to Stephanie in Arizona. Hi, Stephanie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good evening, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, I can`t see a nanny working a year, year and a half without getting payment. My question, have the police learned if there was any kind of schedule that Casey was paying her and if there`s a paper trail attached to that.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer on the case from the get-go, what about it, Natisha? I assume that it`s an avenue police have explored.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: They have explored it. There`s no paper trail. There`s no schedule of payment because they have not been able to find a Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez who exists.

GRACE: And to Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor out of Atlanta -- Eleanor, why didn`t the grandparents get suspicious? I mean, for all this time the baby was supposed to be with a nanny they never met. She never called the house, they never saw her, they never saw her come pick up the child. This girl is not working.

How can she afford a nanny plus another wardrobe?

DIXON: You`re exactly right, although Casey was stealing money from everybody, but I certainly think that would go towards premeditation as part of the prosecution.

GRACE: I keep saying secretly recorded phone calls. A lot of people don`t understand that they are being recorded behind bars, but it is clearly posted and everyone else at the jail seems to know they`re being recorded.

What about this bunch? Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY: Has Jesse ever watched Caylee in the last month or so while he was off work?

CASEY: No.

CINDY: OK.

CASEY: The last time he watched Caylee was at his parents` house when she was a baby. So that was 2006.

CINDY: OK. You know his dad has been trying to reach out to your dad. His mom sent Lee an e-mail and said to tell us that they, as much as the differences that they had with you, they still know that you`re a good mom and that, you know, they want Caylee back as well. So I want you to know that.

CASEY: I appreciate that. I mean, coming from his family, that means a lot. As far as Jesse as an individual is very questionable for me.

L. ANTHONY: I cannot speak to anybody else`s focus other than what they`ve told me.

CASEY: Mm-hmm.

L. ANTHONY: What I can do is speak to my own focus.

CASEY: Yes.

L. ANTHONY: What I can tell you is my number one focus is on Caylee.

CASEY: Yes.

L. ANTHONY: My second focus is you.

CASEY: Yes.

L. ANTHONY: My third is mom.

CASEY: Mm-hmm.

L. ANTHONY: Then dad. Then me.

CASEY: Yes.

L. ANTHONY: OK? So I want to make -- and I don`t give (EXPLETIVE DELETED) about Baez. I don`t give a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) about anything else. That is (EXPLETIVE DELETED) anything else, that is -- those are my priorities.

CASEY: Perfect, thank you. Yes.

CINDY: The whole United States is looking for Caylee.

CASEY: I know that, mom.

CINDY: Her cover is going to be on "People" magazine in a few days.

CASEY: OK.

CINDY: Everybody is looking for her.

CASEY: Oh, good.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: Hey, gorgeous, how are you doing?

CASEY: I look like hell.

G. ANTHONY: You know something? You really need to keep your spirit high for all this.

CASEY: I have. I haven`t been crying while I`ve been in here.

G. ANTHONY: Well, you know something?

CASEY: I`ve been trying to read books and doing other things to keep my mind off of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You are hearing recorded phone calls from behind bars with the tot mom and her family in which they grill her, asking her questions about Caylee`s disappearance. She manages to dodge every question.

Out to the lines, Beth in Washington. Hi, Beth.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, it`s more of a comment, I guess, than a question.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m just curious how that is it that if Casey came across Zenaida`s name as a coincidence, while in the Sawgrass Apartment offices, how is it that George was able to talk to Caylee about that name when he said that she showed no recognition? It just seems like such a large coincidence that.

GRACE: Beth, I don`t believe he asked her about the name. I think he asked her about the nanny. But you know what, maybe you`re right.

What about it, Mark Williams, did he?

WILLIAMS: Well, from what we know, from what some transcripts that we have is the fact that whenever he mentioned the nanny, there was no name recognition.

GRACE: Did he use the name or "the nanny?"

WILLIAMS: As far as I know, he may have used that name because obviously during the course of.

GRACE: Well, you know what, Beth makes an excellent point.

WILLIAMS: Sure, she does.

GRACE: . that we will follow up on.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

GRACE: Thank you, Beth.

But, everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Cody Legg, 23, Escondido, California, killed Iraq on a second tour. Awarded the Army Achievement medal, Overseas Service ribbon, Global War on Terrorism Service medal, lost his life trying to rescue two fellow soldiers.

Loved hanging out with friends, Disneyland, San Diego Padres, playing baseball, dreamed of being a firefighter or EMT, building a life with his girlfriend. He leaves behind parents Bunny and Dave, four brothers.

Cody Legg, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And a special tonight from Georgia friends of the show Carol, Edward, and all, good luck. Also, to our star intern in Atlanta, Scotty. Isn`t she beautiful? She`s heading back to finish her studies at Southern Methodist University.

Scotty, walk slow and hurry back, friend.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END


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« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2008, 08:32:06 AM »

NANCY GRACE

Casey Anthony Defense Ignores Police Tip Collection

Aired December 8, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 25 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Grandparents George and Cindy Anthony insist surveillance video will reveal images of Caylee alive and well, and they are demanding legal action to get their hands on that video. What`s on the video? What will it reveal? And tonight, George and Cindy Anthony announce they`ll travel across the country to investigate another alleged sighting of 3-year-old Caylee in California.

And tonight, we learn that although the defense repeatedly accuses police of withholding evidence, it`s the defense team that has failed to show up and simply retrieve hours and hours of CDs of thousands of Caylee tips. Why? Does the defense actually believe Caylee was murdered, and therefore all of these tips, thousands of them, are useless?

And tonight, more new secretly recorded video surveillance of the tot mom behind bars, her personal visits with parents George and Cindy, brother Lee, private conversations, or so they thought. And they`re grilling her with questions about little Caylee`s disappearance. More of tot mom`s web of lies, admitting she hasn`t shed a single tear behind bars. We hear it all in her own words, her attacks on friends, acquaintances, claiming everybody`s lying but her, right down to the tot mom`s own hair stylist.

And tonight, exclusive, the high-profile lawyer who argued against the death penalty for tot mom. He`s taking your calls live. And the search gears up again. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: We`ve got to bring you and we`ve got to bring Caylee home. And we know where you`re at. I don`t want to see you here. I don`t want you here. But...

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: Yes, but in some ways, I almost feel more protected here than if I were on the outside.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, I guess there`s some truth in that. But you know, once we get that little girl home, which I hope is today, you know, the stuff with you is not going to be easy to get through, but at least we`ll have you out also. And that`s...

CASEY ANTHONY: As long as we have Caylee home, everything else with me we`ll deal with as we can. Lee made a good point. Getting Caylee home is our priority. Everything else will fall into place after that. And that`s the truth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: It`s the truth. OK.

Also tonight, the mystery surrounding the disappearance of a young mom vanishing into thin air, Birmingham, Alabama, her 1-year-old baby boy left behind at day care. Mommy never comes to pick him up. Is there a break? Grainy surveillance video released tonight. What happened to 23-year-old Nadia Kersh?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police are desperately searching for clues in the case of missing 23-year-old mother Nadia Kersh. Just released, grainy surveillance video shows the last time Nadia was seen, leaving work on her lunch break. Nadia left her job in the early afternoon to pick up her 1- year-old son from day care and hasn`t been seen since. Nadia`s car was found abandoned the next day, her purse found in a wooded area nearby. Police have conducted multiple searches in the area and are awaiting forensic test results on physical evidence found in Nadia`s car, hoping those lab tests can help crack this mystery.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. More secretly-recorded surveillance video of tot mom Casey Anthony behind bars.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: What can I do (INAUDIBLE)

CASEY ANTHONY: Just try to keep talking to the media, I guess, keep things positive, keep it focused on Caylee. That means to me the main focus.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Is there anything else that you want to say directly to me at all?

CASEY ANTHONY: Just that I wish that none of this would have ever happened. I really wish that none of this would have ever happened.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, we all feel that way.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: I`m sorry.

CASEY ANTHONY: You don`t have to apologize. It`s good to actually see you guys smile a little bit.

CINDY ANTHONY: Dad was out sweating, working, doing fliers and stuff. I just...

(CROSSTALK)

CASEY ANTHONY: I haven`t showered in two days.

CINDY ANTHONY: We got a flat tire as we were getting off the expressway. My car tire went flat.

CASEY ANTHONY: Hey, guess what? That happened to me!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. What is this about the defense allegedly sitting on hours and hours of CDs prepared by police, thousands of tips, yet they claim police are withholding evidence from them?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: That`s right. They even went to court to try to get these tips, but it really amounts to a public records request. But 1,800 tips have been sitting on two CDs at the Orange County sheriff`s office for a month. And he (ph) actually interviewed with us November 5 and said he wanted these tips because if even one of them could lead them to Caylee, and they still believe she`s alive, then it was worth going through all of them, and yet he`s let them sit there a whole month.

GRACE: Kathi Belich, it seems to me that if the grandparents are claiming little Caylee is still alive and all of these tips are sitting there, it`s just a matter that their attorney or them, they won`t go pick them up? Why?

BELICH: I don`t know. There is a $980 charge. It took the sheriff`s office 50 hours to put these things together. I don`t know. Is it the money? We don`t know. The defense has given us several different reasons for not picking them up, none of which make any sense...

GRACE: What are they?

BELICH: ... but they`re still sitting there tonight...

GRACE: What are the reasons that they`re giving?

BELICH: First they said that it wasn`t what they asked for -- first they told me I was lying that they were even sitting there. Then I told them I had video of that. And then they said that they weren`t what they had asked for. But I didn`t know how they would know that if they hadn`t picked them up yet. And then the last reason we heard was that maybe the defense already knows what`s on them. And again, without having looked at them, how could they possibly know that? So...

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. In addition to just-released videotape, secretly surveillance videotapes of the tot mom meeting with her family -- they`re grilling her about questions regarding little Caylee`s disappearance -- we now find out that there are hours and hours of tips compiled by the sheriff`s office -- they`ve put them all on CD, took them about 50 hours, and a thousand bucks worth of time and energy to do this -- waiting for the defense to come pick them up, if they want to follow up on these tips. And they`ve been sitting there all this time. Yet the defense continues to claim police are withholding evidence from them.

We are taking your calls live. Let`s unleash the lawyers, veteran defense attorney Jason Oshins joining us out of our New York bureau, Hugo Rodriguez out of Miami, and tonight, an exclusive and special guest joining us, Terence Lenamon. He is the former attorney for Casey Anthony. He is a death penalty attorney veteran. And let me tell you something, everybody. To be a death penalty lawyer, you`ve got to have a lot of trials under your belt. He argued against the death penalty for tot mom Casey Anthony. And just Friday night, we learned the state is not seeking the death penalty.

Straight out to Jason Oshins. Jason, if there are tips on these CDs that could show Caylee`s alive, according to the defense, why won`t they go pick them up? Does this suggest to you they know Caylee`s dead, so why bother to pick up the tips?

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I don`t think that, Nancy. I think it`s very expensive and time-consuming to mount a defense. They were preoccupied with the death penalty aspect...

GRACE: What?

OSHINS: ... and dealing with that. I think they`ve just got to get to it right now, and don`t let this be more of a public spectacle than it needs to be.

GRACE: Get to it. OK. You know what? That didn`t make any sense.

OSHINS: Well, it does, Nancy. Look...

GRACE: Because if you`re racing against the clock and you think your granddaughter is alive and there are tips sitting at the sheriff`s office you want to follow up on, why are you sitting on your thumb, to put it euphemistically, and not pick them up?

OSHINS: Nancy, I think the police and the authorities, if they thought they had anything that would be of aid to them, they would have let us all know about it in some way.

GRACE: Well, they have been letting them know. Isn`t it true, Kathi Belich with WFTV, that they are sending them repeated e-mail reminders, Hey, come pick up the tips. Again, Come pick up the tips.

BELICH: That`s right. Three in early November reminding them. At one point, Jose Baez`s office said he would be by on one particular Friday at 4:30 to pick them up. He didn`t show up, no explanation, no phone call. They`re still sitting there. As of tonight at 6:00 o`clock, they were still sitting there.

GRACE: I want to go to Terence Lenamon. He is a death penalty expert. He`s a trial court veteran and the former attorney for Casey Anthony. He cannot -- so don`t ask him in a phone call -- reveal any conversations he`s had with the tot mom.

But Mr. Lenamon, it looks bad that the defense isn`t even bothering to go pick up the tips.

TERENCE LENAMON, CASEY ANTHONY`S FORMER ATTORNEY: Well, I think this is a situation where the defense is overloaded with a lot of information. What you have to understand, Nancy, is that these kind of cases normally take years and years to develop. And it seems like things have been running on an expedited pattern right now with the defense and the state releasing all kinds of pages of documents, thousands of pages of documents, it`s my understanding. So it`s not unusual for these things to take a while. This is a case...

GRACE: Mr. Lenamon...

LENAMON: Go ahead, Nancy.

GRACE: ... I am very, very familiar with death penalty cases.

LENAMON: Absolutely.

GRACE: And they absolutely do not always take years and years to go to trial. And also, at the get-go, it was defense attorney Jose Baez screaming for his day in court. Well, he`s got it, January 5. And apparently, the defense is going to ask for a delay.

LENAMON: Well, my understanding is that the judge is actually going to be changed. Judge Strickland (ph) is not going to be the judge on January 5. I don`t know if they notified you about that.

GRACE: Yes.

LENAMON: But when you have a new judge taking over, the whole situation changes, depending on what the judge`s style -- as you know, having tried a number of cases that you`ve tried, you know that depending on the judge`s style is going to dictate how the calendar runs.

GRACE: Well, you know, Terence, I can already tell you know your way around the courtroom because now you have managed to successfully blame this on a new judge coming. And you know what? You do have a point. Different judges approach cases in different ways.

But Hugo Rodriguez, that doesn`t explain why the defense hasn`t moseyed on over to the sheriff`s office and picked up all these thousands of tips.

HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They`re not Brady material. It`s not discovery. I think that they`re trying to do maybe what the police haven`t done. I can`t get excited about it, Nancy. It is not part of the discovery package. Hopefully, they`ll get to it. Hopefully, they`ll use it as part of their defense.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: We only have five minutes. What else do you want me to check on?

CASEY ANTHONY: I thought they were giving us extra time.

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t know. That`s only five minutes in this session.

CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, I know, and it`ll cut off when we have one minute left and then we`ll get our last minute. I`m fine.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: I want you guys to know that. I`m eating to the best of my ability. I miss real food.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Where did you take Caylee to get her hair cut?

CASEY ANTHONY: I never took Caylee anywhere to get her hair cut. That`s why when I heard that, that was complete (DELETED). The only time Caylee`s gotten her hair cut has been at the house...

(CROSSTALK)

CASEY ANTHONY: ... when you did it.

CINDY ANTHONY: I know that. Who was your beautician?

(CROSSTALK)

CASEY ANTHONY: No one colored my hair. I did my hair last.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: No one has touched my head since the first week of April, after my 21st birthday last year. That was the last person that cut my hair.

CINDY ANTHONY: I`m just wondering where that came from.

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, exactly. I`m wondering where that came from.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s between your age and dad`s age so she`s...

CINDY ANTHONY: About 55?

CASEY ANTHONY: Roughly, yes.

CINDY ANTHONY: Have you ever heard her sister`s name? Not Zanny`s sister, her mom`s sister`s name, Zanny`s aunt`s name?

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

CINDY ANTHONY: Is it possible that she could be staying with her sister -- Zanny`s mom could be staying with Zanny`s aunt in Miami?

CASEY ANTHONY: That`s a possibility. I don`t know where exactly they are in Miami or who they`re staying with, but it`s a possibility.

CINDY ANTHONY: Does Christina sound familiar to you, or Sophina?

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Here you hear the tot mom, Casey Anthony, even blaming her hair stylist. If you think back to the beginning of the investigation, recall a photo emerged of little Caylee apparently with a bruise on her face taken by a hair stylist. That was the reports we got. Here she`s saying, I haven`t been to the hair stylist. I haven`t had my hair colored, nothing. All this is a big fat lie. Well, that photo came from somewhere.

We are taking your calls live. Out to Beth in Virginia. Hi, Beth.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I just first want to say Merry Christmas to you and your beautiful family.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And...

GRACE: Thank you so much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... I want to know if there is no real Zenaida Gonzalez baby-sitter, who`s been taking care of Caylee all of the time that she was supposedly with that baby-sitter?

GRACE: Out to Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Where was the baby during all this time, just at various men`s apartments?

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Well, that`s kind of the big mystery, Nancy. Some people are saying that she was staying with Casey at various men`s apartments, her current boyfriend, Tony Lazzaro, her ex-boyfriend, Ricardo Morales. And some people are saying that she was already gone by that point.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who is now searching for Caylee, originally posted the bond for the tot mom, came off that bond. What is your theory about all this time, who was keeping the little girl when the tot mom would say, She`s at the beach with the nanny, or she`s at Disney Land. Where was she, in the trunk with the chloroform?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: The baby died the night of the 15th, early hours, probably around 1:30 on the 16th. That was after the big fight, where Cindy got physical with her because she had found out she was stealing from the grandmother`s account. The baby`s been dead since 1:30, 2:00 AM on the 16th, and therefore, everything else she says as to where she was is a figment of her imagination. It`s made up. It`s a lie. Nobody saw her after that time, starting with, like I say, 1:30, 2:00 o`clock in the morning of the 16th. She`s been dead ever since.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer on the case from the beginning. Natisha, even before the date that Padilla is giving -- and his theory is not far-fetched. That`s a theory a lot of people believe. Even before then, though, the little girl had to be staying with somebody. Who was she staying with? There is no nanny.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, she did stay with a friend of Casey`s a while ago, a friend of hers, but then she had stopped staying with her. But no, there was never a nanny. So they believe that she was with Casey all that time.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. I want to go back to Terence Lenamon. Everyone, Lenamon was on this case as a death penalty expert. He has tried multiple death penalty cases. He`s had varied results. He`s won some, he`s lost some, but he`s not afraid to get in there and try a case.

Mr. Lenamon, you argued against the death penalty. You argued mitigating circumstances. What were they?

LENAMON: There was numerous mitigating circumstances that we presented to Mr. Lamar (ph), who`s the state attorney in Orange County. Among those is some of the facts that you actually have seen that come out -- had come out on your show and in the newspaper about her personality, her behavior, her sleeplessness, her reactions...

GRACE: Are you trying to say she`s insane?

LENAMON: Absolutely not insane. Insanity is not an issue in this case. My job is to present to Mr. Lamar`s office the facts and circumstances as they exist in a light most favorable to him, should she get convicted. And that`s the approach I used.

GRACE: Mrs. Lenamon -- Mr. Lenamon, have you seen the photos of tot mom dancing in a mini-skirt and a push-up bra in the days after little Caylee -- Casey -- after little Caylee went missing? It hardly suggests that she`s having a depression or any type of a mental illness.

LENAMON: Well, I disagree with you, Nancy. I think if you`re familiar with bipolar disorder...

GRACE: I`m very familiar.

LENAMON: ... mania is symptomatic of someone who is not sleeping, who`s acting irrationally, who`s spending a lot of money, and whose brain thought process is different from ours. And I think that that could explain some of the things that were going on in Miss Anthony`s world at this time.

GRACE: Interesting because those are the symptoms of bipolar.

To Jason Oshins, defense attorney. Bipolar is in no way -- while Lenamon is correct, she exhibits some of those characteristics, she`s never been diagnosed as bipolar. Bipolar is not a mental defect defense and it is not insanity. Fifty percent of the people in Manhattan claim they`re bipolar.

OSHINS: It`s probably true.

GRACE: And it`s probably true! Can you blame them?

OSHINS: No, I don`t. But again, I don`t think that`s really, you know, the issue we`re talking about. We`re narrowing it down to mitigating circumstances on a death sentence. I think that`s really where the focus is. I don`t think it was in the state`s interest to try this as a death penalty case.

GRACE: Not what I asked you, but thank you for the sermon...

OSHINS: You`re welcome.

GRACE: ... Pastor Oshins.

Out to the lines. Bonnie in Pennsylvania. Hi, Bonnie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I`m glad to get through finally.

GRACE: And I`m glad to hear from you finally. I`ve been waiting to talk to you.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Listen, when Cindy was asking Casey last week if Zenaida had baby-sat anyone else, Casey mentioned Jeff. And Cindy said, Oh, she babysat Anabelle (ph), and Casey said yes. My question is, did the police question this Jeff or an Anabelle?

GRACE: Oh, yes, they did. You`re referring to Jeff Hopkins. They did question him. Zanny the nanny never baby-sat for Anabelle. In fact, he had never heard of Zenaida Gonzalez.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: Listen, people like Tara (ph), people like Jesse (ph), who are maybe trying to help, even Christina, God bless her, don`t know what the hell they`re talking about. They may have talked to me within the last few months or seen me within the last, oh, I don`t know, year, and will say, Oh, yes, this was during this such-and-such time, because they`re trying to help me. Well, Mom, this is why stuff`s getting misconstrued or just getting put in my mouth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Everybody`s lying but her, according to the tot mom, Casey Anthony. Just released, a grainy surveillance video secretly recorded from behind bars.

To Dr. Belisa Vranich, psychologist in New York City. Dr. Vranich, thank you for being with us. Isn`t it a big red flag, a red bell of alarm when you believe everybody is out to get you, everybody is lying on you and you`re the only one telling the truth?

BELISA VRANICH, PSYCHOLOGIST: She`s trying to take the focus off herself. And she said it herself, which is, Focus on Caylee, which means, Take the focus off me. It`s very clear.

GRACE: And what do you make of her demeanor?

VRANICH: Her demeanor is really not of a mom who`s devastated. Her child has been gone now, what, six months? This is not a devastated mom. This is a defiant adolescent.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: You know, I just had a little analogy of our family.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: Uh-huh.

G. ANTHONY: Think of me as the fountain. Think of dad. The next finger, you know, your index finger is your mom. You know, she likes to point, just like Caylee.

C. ANTHONY: Yes, but.

G. ANTHONY: And the middle finger is -- OK, the middle finger (INAUDIBLE). I`m looking at size of the family. You know, and the next finger after that is going to be Lee, that`s going to be you, and then finally, the little pinky, that`s Caylee.

So think of that -- think of your hand and say, this is us. This is the family that loves each other and cares, and needs to be together. And -- we`re missing two fingers. As silly as this sounds, as silly as it sounds.

C. ANTHONY: I know.

G. ANTHONY: But we have you here, we know you`re here, but it`s not the same.

C. ANTHONY: I know it`s not the same. It`s just like I have you guys with me, but it`s not the same.

I guess a certain lady that came forward on the news, her -- son were at the airport, said they saw Caylee, spoke to Caylee.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Right. And she said her name was Caylee Marie Anthony.

C. ANTHONY: Do you have any more information on that?

CINDY ANTHONY: Yes. But, again, the sheriff`s department is telling us they`re fully investigating that.

C. ANTHONY: Well, I want someone outside of the sheriff`s department looking into these things. I mean, I want Lee to look into stuff. I want you guys to look into stuff, I want the state to look into stuff. I don`t -- I just want.

CINDY ANTHONY: We`re looking -- we`re trying to request those videotapes from the Orlando airport.

C. ANTHONY: OK.

CINDY ANTHONY: I was with Jose today when he requested that.

C. ANTHONY: OK. Have you spoken to her yourself?

CINDY ANTHONY: Oh, she contacted me. She calls me every day.

C. ANTHONY: OK.

CINDY ANTHONY: Three or four times a day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: The grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony insist there is existing video that will prove little Caylee is alive.

To Kathi Belich with WFTV, what is the video that they are seeking to obtain?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: From what I understand, they`re trying to get videos from a mall here in Orlando, from an auto shop store, and possibly some other businesses where they say people have claimed that they have seen Caylee alive.

Investigators are not interested in those videotapes, but they`ve also called the businesses, saying we don`t want them, but we also don`t want to stop you from releasing them to the Anthonys, but I think the Anthonys are having trouble still getting those videos from those businesses. And I think they`re trying to move forward with subpoenas.

As of the end of today, we saw nothing filed with the Orange County Clerk of Courts as far as getting any subpoenas, but that`s what the defense claims they`re going to do.

GRACE: OK. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Jason Oshins, New York, Hugo Rodriguez, Miami. And exclusively joining us tonight, Terence Lenamon, veteran death penalty defense lawyer, who was on the Anthony defense team, death penalty off the table now.

You know, Hugo, if you could, just give me a straight answer on this, all right? Now, for all of the years that I prosecuted, all the defense has to do is get a form subpoena, you fill in the indictment number, and you write what you need.

It`s a subpoena duces tecum for a document or a saying and you give it to the business, and they give you the video. What`s the problem?

HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FMR. FBI AGENT: No problem. You`re correct. I have -- maybe Terry can answer this question. I don`t know if she`s been found indigent for costs, hence, it has to be requested through the court.

I don`t know the answer. But you`re correct. They can issue a subpoena to any third party. Then it can be litigated either by the custodian of record, or if the state wants to come in and object. But they can issue their own subpoenas.

GRACE: What about it, Terrence?

TERENCE LENAMON, FMR. ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY, ARGUED AGAINST DEATH: Well, Nancy, actually I know Georgia is a little different than Florida. In Florida, in criminal cases, you have to get permission from the court, in state court.

I know Hugo does a lot of federal court, but in state court, you have to get permission from the court to issue a subpoena duces tecum, so that`s probably the procedure they`re following. And.

GRACE: Well, let me ask you this. Have they asked the court for permission?

LENAMON: I can`t answer that. You know, my involvement has been specifically dealing with Mr. Lamar`s office on the issue of the death penalty, and I`m very grateful that he decided not to seek the death penalty. But I haven`t been involved with Mr. Baez in that aspect of the case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: I want to be able to reach out and hug you and give you the -- you know, the big papa Joe hug. But, you know, we`ve got to get that little girl back any way we can. And we`re doing everything we can.

C. ANTHONY: My only concern -- I gave Lee a statement. I want him to speak to whoever in the media, give them a statement specifically from me. He is going to give them an exact quote. She is my only concern. Next to Caylee, it`s you guys.

CINDY ANTHONY: How about Jesse? He has been real close. Is there anything you want me to tell Jesse?

C. ANTHONY: I would like Jesse to stay as far away from you guys as possible. I`m saying that wholeheartedly, and as calmly as possible.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

C. ANTHONY: I don`t know how much I trust him right now. And I even told Lee that. Lee is going to investigate a few people for me. I -- in my gut, I don`t know if I can trust him.

CINDY ANTHONY: Is there any particular day, for sure, that you know we need to track this back to?

C. ANTHONY: As far as what, mom? What specifically?

CINDY ANTHONY: The last day you saw Caylee.

C. ANTHONY: The 16th.

CINDY ANTHONY: Now, I thought Tara said her and Caylee spoke on the phone on the -- that week.

C. ANTHONY: Tara?

CINDY ANTHONY: Tara from Michigan.

C. ANTHONY: You mean Mark`s psycho ex-wife Tara.

CINDY ANTHONY: Yes.

C. ANTHONY: She has not even spoken to me since probably the end of May. At least.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: So there you hear even more people that the tot mom doesn`t trust. They`re all psycho, they`re all lying about her.

Back to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Kathi, I just heard Terence Lenamon explain to me that the procedure is pretty much the same in a lot of jurisdictions. But in Florida, you have to get the OK from the judge to issue that subpoena.

So has the defense gone to the judge and said, we need these videos to show Caylee`s alive?

BELICH: Not that we know of. I checked today with the clerk of courts. You know, I tried to find the judge. The judge`s courtroom was dark. The spokesman for the court administration here in Orange County has said she knows nothing about this.

I suppose he could have gone -- I don`t even know if he had to go to the same judge that`s been handling this case. But there is no indication.

GRACE: So bottom line, there`s nothing in the record that any of these videos have been requested that the Anthonys insist will prove Caylee is alive. OK.

I want to go back to Terence Lenamon. Terrence, what can you tell me -- you mentioned the judges have changed. Why? And who is the new judge?

LENAMON: Yes, it`s not unusual for judges to rotate out from criminal to civil and vice versa, depending on what jurisdiction it is. In Orange County, my understanding is that they -- rotate out into different branches from civil to criminal.

I`m not familiar with the name of the new judge. Again, I know that Strickland was leaving. I know that, because I`ve had a conversation with the prosecutor and Mr. Baez about this when I was first brought in on the case.

So all of the parties are aware that this is going to happen. It`s just the normal procedure that is followed.

GRACE: To John Lucich, former investigator and author of "Cyber Lies," here`s the deal, Lucich. They claim these businesses, malls, et cetera, have video that will show Caylee on the video. They haven`t gone to the court to get the OK on the subpoenas, to get the video.

It`s very, very simple procedure. You and I know that most businesses tape over -- over after about seven days, max. So the fact that they`re not going to get the video, what are they trying to do, set it up for trial? And claim, here`s little Caylee? But we don`t have the video?

JOHN LUCICH, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "CYBER LIES": They have so many sightings of this little girl out in California, down in Florida, out in Oklahoma. The only way this little girl could be in all that places in such a short amount of time is if Captain Kirk himself was beaming her around from the deck of the Star Ship Enterprise.

That`s the absolute only way. Bombshell. Guess what? This little girl is not alive, and they are just all about tactics. This is not about -- this is not about sightings. It`s not sightings at all.

GRACE: And very quickly, to Dr. Michael Bell, out of Palm Beach, he`s the chief medical examiner there. A search is going to be led by Leonard Padilla, very soon, for little Caylee. If her remains were found, what would a volunteer find at this time?

DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH CO. CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: At this time, next to nothing. Maybe some bones, some -- some soft tissue, not much else.

GRACE: And back to Natisha Lance, our producer on the case. I understand the Anthonys are headed to California. Why?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: They`re going there to do an interview, and also while they are there, they`re planning to follow up on some tips that have come in there as far back as July.

They said that some of these tips are put on the back burner and now they`re going to investigate them fully once they get out there.

GRACE: And to Nikki Pierce with WDBO, are these alleged sightings of Caylee?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Are they are alleged sightings of Caylee, and they`re going to investigate those when they go out there to do a media blitz. But they won`t give us any information. Their spokesman says that they`re going to wait until they get more information, until they can find -- determine its credibility on their own.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Have you spoken with the psychologist or psychiatrist yet?

C. ANTHONY: Every single day.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

C. ANTHONY: That`s who I was talking to when I was sitting at the table.

CINDY ANTHONY: Are you able to really speak with her, or is that recorded?

C. ANTHONY: No, it`s not recorded.

CINDY ANTHONY: So do you feel like you can open up to her?

C. ANTHONY: No.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK. Understood.

C. ANTHONY: We`ve talked about how I feel about things, but I`m not opening up to someone that I don`t know. The only person that I have would be Jose. I mean, for obvious reasons. He`s someone that I -- I know that I need to trust. That I`ve started to trust.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police have just released grainy surveillance video showing missing mom Nadia Kersh the last time she was seen. In the video Nadia is seen leaving her job at a local market and is on her way to pick up her 1-year-old son from daycare. Nadia never made it to the daycare center.

Police later found her car abandoned, along with her purse which was found in a wooded area close by. Investigators are anxiously awaiting test results from the FBI lab in Quantico, hoping that forensic testing for physical evidence found in Nadia`s car can lead to an arrest in this case.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These are the last images we have of 23-year-old Nadia Kersh. You`re watching the young mom leave on her lunch break from Tria market last Monday, just after 1:00. Kersh hasn`t been seen since. Police have recovered her car in west Birmingham, her purse at a nearby railroad tracks.

Detectives have identified a 26-year-old male suspect from Irondale. So far, there is not enough evidence to charge him. Investigators have shifted off what they are calling a good deal of physical evidence to the FBI crime lab in Quantico for processing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The little boy left in daycare. His mommy never came to pick him up. This is unlike anything Nadia Kersh has ever done before. The search still on for the 23-year-old out of Birmingham, Alabama.

To Paul Finebaum from WJOX AM 690, Paul, a suspect? what happened? What -- why did he get let loose?

PAUL FINEBAUM, TALK SHOW HOST, WJOX AM 690: That`s a great question, Nancy. And right now, everyone here is -- they`re anxiously awaiting the DNA evidence from the FBI lab in Quantico. That`s one thing that`s everyone just.

GRACE: What DNA evidence?

FINEBAUM: And that`s another thing as well and this is more psychological. Beth Holloway, Natalie`s mom, has joined the search and that has really embolden a lot of people here.

GRACE: You are seeing video of Nadia`s graduation from Victory Christian Academy in Florida.

To Nancy Kersh, a special guest joining us tonight. This is Nadia`s mother.

Miss Kersh, what are they talking about? A suspect was apprehended and released?

NANCY KERSH, MOTHER OF MISSING MOM, NADIA KERSH: Yes. They didn`t have enough evidence to hold him at the time. But as the days go by, there`s more and more forensic evidence coming in, and they`re slowly building that puzzle to really have a strong case, so that they will be able to charge the suspect.

GRACE: Let me ask you, Miss Kersh, what DNA evidence, to what DNA evidence are they referring?

KERSH: From what I understand, there`s -- I don`t know exactly from where it is from. But I understand that there are trace amounts of DNA evidence that they did send up to the FBI.

GRACE: They must have been found in the car.

KERSH: It may have been found in the car.

GRACE: With me is the mother of Nadia Kersh. She left her little boy in daycare, went to work. She never picked him up.

Miss Kersh, tell the viewers who are unfamiliar with the story what happened.

KERSH: Nadia is a very dedicated worker, and she is a very dedicated mom. The pictures that she sent me over time, and the last batch of pictures she sent me were back in May, when we were still in Guam.

And each of those photos -- and there were, oh, gosh, 15, 16 of them, there were photos of her and our grandson. And as we were looking through those to try to have a picture of just Nadia, I said Nadia always had her son with her.

And so she was a dedicated mom. She brought him everywhere. And her friends will attest to that, as well. She just.

GRACE: Where is the little boy tonight?

KERSH: He`s still with a very close friend of Nadia`s. We`re not in a position yet to take him, because we live out of state, we have to meet Alabama requirements, and that includes background checks, home study, that kind of thing.

GRACE: Right. Right.

KERSH: So that takes a while. They said normally, that`s..

GRACE: With me.

KERSH: Go ahead.

GRACE: With me is Nadia`s mother, everyone.

Nadia, 23 years old, 5`3", about 115 pounds, chestnut hair, hazel eyes. Take a look. She never picked up her 1-year-old little boy from daycare. Newly-released surveillance video shows her leaving on her lunch break.

Let`s take a look at that again, Elizabeth. Her car was found abandoned, her purse found later on railroad tracks nearby. Evidence does suggest foul play. No sign of the 23-year-old girl.

I want to go back to John Lucich, former investigator, and author of "Cyber Lies." The family is considering bringing in their own private investigator, like you. What would that bring to the table? What could you do that say the police can`t do?

LUCICH: OK, well, first of all, I`m a former criminal investigator, not a private investigator. But I would say leave it up to the cops. The cops have a lot more resources available at their ability. It`s easier for them to get a subpoena, and guess what, if you don`t give that stuff over they come out and pick you up.

So they have a lot more bite to their, to their investigation. A private investigator may just fumble over everything. I would leave it at this early stages in the hands of the cops for right now.

GRACE: To Paul Finebaum with WJOX AM 690, where is the baby`s daddy? Who is he? Has he been ruled out? That`s always where police start their investigation.

FINEBAUM: They have not ruled him out. But they did -- but there`s a great mystery about who he really is. And I`m going to defer to the mother on that. But they picked up his boyfriend -- her boyfriend, or ex- boyfriend, I should say, Nancy.

He was released after investigation. And it`s totally confusing right now. Totally. On who the father is.

GRACE: To Nancy Kersh, who`s the father?

KERSH: I can`t add to anymore of his comments. They`re still trying to determine who that is. Nadia never shared that information.

GRACE: OK. Well, that is her right. I just wish we could rule him out. And why is it, Belisa Vranich, Dr. Vranich, psychologist, that police always start with boyfriends, biological fathers, husbands, as a possible perp?

BELISA VRANICH, PSYCHOLOGIST: The statistics show that those are the men that usually will hurt women, is exactly what you said, the fathers of their children, boyfriends, paramours, fiances. That`s what the statistics show, unfortunately.

GRACE: To Donna in Missouri, hi, Donna.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, I love your show.

GRACE: Thank you for calling. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is have they slowed the tape down of Nadia in the garage when she`s pulling out? It`s so fast you can`t see. But it seems to me as though someone might have been in the car.

GRACE: Excellent question.

To Nancy Kersh, the mother of Nadia, have you heard anything from police that someone was in the car?

KERSH: No, I haven`t.

GRACE: And I want to go to Dr. Michael Bell with Palm Beach County, he`s the chief medical examiner there. Officials still waiting for Quantico, the FBI lab, to finish processing evidence. How long does it take?

BELL: It could take weeks.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These are the last images we have of 23-year-old Nadia Kersh. You`re watching the young mom leave on her lunch break from Tria market last Monday just after 1:00. Kersh hasn`t been seen since. Police have recovered her car in west Birmingham, her purse on a nearby railroad tracks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: There is a $35,000 reward. The tip line, 205-332-6262.

To Pat in California, hi, Pat.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I didn`t catch all of the previous caller`s question but I was wondering something similar. Did they -- do they have that surveillance camera trained on that area the entire day? And I wonder if they watched it from the time she arrived to work until that point, to see if possibly anyone entered her car if it were unlocked.

GRACE: To John Lucich, typically the surveillance cameras do not move. They are stationary. Wouldn`t you agree?

LUCICH: Yes, they do have pan tilting zoom. That means they have -- they`re operated by somebody. What they need to do is actually start going out and finding out how many video cameras they have in the city and then start taking a look at those to see if she went specific ways. I mean that -- that`s a good place to start.

GRACE: Back to Nancy Kersh, the mother of Nadia Kersh. Did police give you a ballpark estimate as to when the DNA would come back from Quantico?

KERSH: They did not. They -- what I understand, what I`ve been told is that they have submitted it and they have asked them to put it on the fast track.

GRACE: Do you plan to get the little boy when you have met all the requirements?

KERSH: Yes.

GRACE: Everyone, tip line, 205-332-6262. Please help us.

Let`s stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Tyler Picket, 28, Saratoga, Wyoming, killed Iraq. On a second tour. Awarded the Medal of Valor. Also served in Afghanistan.

Devoted to friends, dreamed of retiring to the Wyoming mountains. Leaves behind parents Ed and Sherry, widow Christie.

Tyler Pickett, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END


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« Reply #52 on: December 10, 2008, 08:03:59 AM »

NANCY GRACE

O.J. Simpson Transferred to State Prison

Aired December 9, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Thirteen years to the day after the double murders in Brentwood, Hall-of-Famer turned murder suspect O.J. Simpson found guilty of armed robbery and kidnap after blasting into a casino hotel room with an armed posse, making off with over $100,000 in sports memorabilia, all caught on tape. After Simpson turns down a sweetheart plea deal for as little as three years, a judge finally brings down the hammer on O.J. Simpson, sentencing him to 33 years behind bars. He`ll do at least 9.
In the last hours, Simpson transported under armed guard to the Nevada state prison system. But is star treatment already kicking in at Simpson`s new house, the big house?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

O.J. SIMPSON: I stand before you today sorry, somewhat confused.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: NFL Hall of Famer and now convicted felon O.J. Simpson has officially begun serving his 33-year sentence for attempting to rob two memorabilia dealers at a Las Vegas casino. Hours ago, Simpson was transferred to state prison, where he will have to serve at least nine years before he`s even eligible for parole. Simpson is now at High Desert state prison, where he will undergo a 21-day inmate intake evaluation before he being assigned to a prison.

SIMPSON: In no way did I mean to hurt anybody, to steal anything from anyone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Oh, boo-hoo!

And tonight, breaking news. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 25 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?

Headlines tonight. Details emerge of another alleged Caylee sighting, grandparents George and Cindy Anthony traveling from Orlando to Newport Beach, California. Was little Caylee spotted at a local restaurant with another family? And was it caught on video?

And tot mom`s lawyers go on national TV, claiming she can`t get a fair trial in her own home town. And after demanding swift justice, the lawyer now says he`s in no rush to go to court, this while the defense accuses police of withholding evidence. The reality is, the defense has failed to show up and retrieve hours of CDs compiling thousands of Caylee tips. Why? Why haven`t they shown up? Do they actually believe Caylee was murdered, and therefore all of these tips, thousands of tips, are useless?

And tonight, more of the bombshell video surveillance from behind bars, the tot mom`s personal visits with parents George and Cindy, brother Lee, private conversations revealing more of the tot mom`s web of lies. We hear it all in her own words, her attack on friends, claiming everybody`s lying but her, of course. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: You need to take care of yourself.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: She`s not going to hurt Caylee, is she?

CASEY ANTHONY: No. I told you, in my gut, I know she`s still OK. I can feel it, Mom. I know she`s still OK. We`re going to get our little girl back and she`s going to be just as she was.

CINDY ANTHONY: Never let anybody (INAUDIBLE)

CASEY ANTHONY: No. Trust me. I said the same thing. I`m going to be the crazy, overprotective mom at that point, but I don`t care. I think it`s well-deserved.

CINDY ANTHONY: You`ve always been a protective mommy.

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, well, like I said, the crazy. I won`t let her out of my sight.

CINDY ANTHONY: Jose said that you said everything would make sense once we found Caylee.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, yes. Once you have someone that you can talk to, you can get a real explanation from, that knows where she has been. It`s going to have to be because up to (ph) that point -- once we get Caylee, everything else will figure itself out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight. NFL Hall of Famer turned double murder suspect O.J. Simpson heads to his new house, the big house.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Recently convicted kidnapper O.J. Simpson has officially begun serving his sentence for armed robbery and kidnapping. Hours ago, Simpson was transferred to state prison. Simpson will undergo 21 days of inmate intake evaluations before he`s assigned to a southern Nevada jail to serve the remainder of his sentence.

SIMPSON: I wasn`t there to hurt anybody. I just wanted my personal things. And I realize I was stupid. I`m sorry. I didn`t mean to steal anything from anybody. And I didn`t know I was doing anything illegal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Simpson will not be eligible for parole for at least nine years, and could serve the rest of his life behind bars, should he serve the maximum 33-year sentence.

SIMPSON: I forgave Mike. I yelled at him and I forgave him, just like I yelled at Bruce and Beardsley and I`ve forgiven them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also breaking today, four former Simpson co- defendants, who all agreed to plea deals and testified against Simpson at trial, received probation sentences, while Simpson could be spending the remainder of his life in jail.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent for "In Session." I understand he was transported under armed guard. Where is he headed?

JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Well, he`s headed for Indian Springs, which is very close, 45 minutes from Las Vegas. So today, Nancy, while O.J. Simpson began to be processed within the Nevada state prison system, the other four co-defendants who became state witnesses were being sentenced by the judge in Las Vegas.

GRACE: Jean, what can you tell me about rumors, about reports that Simpson turned down a sweetheart plea deal as light as three years behind bars? On three years, he might have done a year, maybe.

CASAREZ: I can confirm that there was a plea deal. Yes, I can. I can`t confirm to you the minimum or the maximum, and there was a minimum or maximum, but it was turned down. And it was a situation where both co- defendants, C.J. Stewart and O.J. Simpson, both had to agree to the plea deal.

GRACE: Take a listen to Simpson in court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SIMPSON: Yes, your honor, I stand before you today sorry, somewhat confused. I feel like apologetic to the people of the state of Nevada. I`ve been coming to Nevada since 1959. I worked summer jobs here for my uncle in `60 and `61, and I`ve been coming here ever since and I`ve never gotten into any trouble. People have always been fine to me.

When I came here, I came here for a wedding. I didn`t come here to -- I didn`t come here to reclaim property. I was told it was here.

When he told me that Monday that the stuff was in Nevada, when he knew I was going to be in Nevada, I called my kids. I talked to my sisters. I called the Brown family and I told them I had a chance to get some of our property back, property that over the years, we`ve seen being sold on the Internet. We`ve seen pictures of ours that were stolen from our home going into the tabloids. We`ve called the police and asked what to do. They told us what to try to do. But you can never find out who was selling it.

And this was the first time I had an opportunity to catch the guys red-handed who had been stealing from my family.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Oh, somebody`s stealing from O.J. Simpson! It`s their fault! They set him up.

Art Harris, investigative journalist with Artharris.com, is he actually trying to tell the judge that all that Joe Montana and Pete Rose memorabilia belonged to who, his mother? What`s he trying to tell the judge?

ART HARRIS, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Well, he sort of skips over, Nancy, what belonged to him and what allegedly was...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! This did not belong to him, number one. None of this stuff belonged to him.

HARRIS: That`s right. It belongs to the Goldmans, right. He was just trying to reclaim it under the radar so that he could deprive them of the court order giving it to them for the civil judgment of $33 million.

GRACE: Art Harris, what do you know about an alleged plea deal that was as low as three years behind bars? That would have been the sentence. On three years, Art -- you know the justice system -- he may have done one year.

HARRIS: He would have skated right out of there, Nancy. I don`t know the numbers. I know that Jean Casarez was accurate that there was an offer and that he did turn it down. Now, that is a guy who goes to Las Vegas and does not gamble on the right color.

GRACE: Back to Jean Casarez with "In Session." Jean, I understand he`s going to be processed at a center. Everybody gets sent there, and from there, they`ll get shipped out to where they`ll be for their prison stay. Where do you believe he`ll end up?

CASAREZ: I think he may end up right where he`s going right now, which is High Desert. That`s southern Nevada. It`s medium security. Nancy, up in northern Nevada, which is actually where I am right now, is where you have the death row. You have maximum security. You have a different type of prisons here. I think he`s going to stay where he is right now, in southern Nevada.

GRACE: Jane, what can you tell me about the facility, High Desert?

CASAREZ: It`s about 3,000 beds. It`s all male. It is...

GRACE: We`re showing video of it...

CASAREZ: ... as I said, medium security.

GRACE: ... right now, Jean. We`re showing video of it right now.

CASAREZ: It is...

GRACE: Go ahead.

CASAREZ: And O.J. Simpson -- remember, he`s been in protective custody down in Clark County. He`s going to remain in protective custody. I think he will have a lot of people around him. But this is where he will be, at least for the next nine years.

GRACE: What do we know about amenities at that jail?

CASAREZ: It`s much better, I understand, than the Clark County detention center. When I was interviewing his co-defendant, C.J. Stewart, in jail several weeks ago, what I learned was that this facility, you have more freedom. You`re allowed out about four hours a day that you can be out and about, which is a much different situation than the jail in Las Vegas.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, the Goldman family attorney Jonathan Polak from Indianapolis. Also with us Gloria Allred, famed attorney, former Brown attorney, joining us out of LA. Trial lawyer Raymond Giudice out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. And high-profile lawyer out of Seattle, Washington, Anne Bremner.

Anne, the co-defendants got probation. I guess you think it`s all so unfair to Simpson.

ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Well, you know, the fact of the matter is, it`s like in the parade of shame, Nancy. First in line gets the deal. But yes, it is because lookit, he`s 9 years to 33. And they got zero time. One, two, three, four zeros, probation.

GRACE: What about it, Gloria?

GLORIA ALLRED, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR BROWN FAMILY: Well, no, it`s very, very fair because, first of all, Simpson was the ringleader. Secondly, the defendants -- the other defendants who got probation today, Nancy, were offered a deal and were smart enough to take it. Simpson was offered a deal and didn`t take it, and now he has to pay the consequences. He gambled big-time and he lost in Las Vegas.

GRACE: Ray?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Just because Simpson got a bad sentence doesn`t mean these guys shouldn`t get a fair sentence. I thought they got very reasonable sentences because they testified quickly and honestly.

GRACE: Jonathan?

JONATHAN POLAK, GOLDMAN FAMILY ATTORNEY: It`s fantastic. The fact that he`s probably breathed the last free air that he will ever breathe again is tremendously satisfying to all those who`ve worked on the Goldmans` behalf.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Nevada court judge has sentenced four of O.J. Simpson`s former co-defendants to probation. That ruling handed down today. Under a plea deal to avoid any prison time, the four testified against Simpson. Two of the men also admitted bringing guns into the hotel room at the Palace Station about a year-and-a-half ago, September `07, in a confrontation with two sports memorabilia dealers. Simpson still maintains he only wanted to retrieve personal items he claims were stolen from him years ago.

SIMPSON: I didn`t want to steal anything from anybody. I don`t think anybody there said I wanted anybody else`s stuff, just my own.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: O.J. Simpson finally heading to jail after a judge brings down the hammer, Simpson given 33 years behind bars. He`ll probably do about nine. And today, he is transported under armed guards to High Desert medium security facility.

Out to a special guest joining us tonight, Kato Kaelin, everyone`s favorite house guest. He was a witness at Simpson`s initial murder trial. He`s host of "National Lampoon" and is now touring with -- what`s the name of it?

KATO KAELIN, WITNESS AT MURDER TRIAL: Nancy, it`s called "The Weenie Man-O-Logs."

GRACE: OK.

KAELIN: Got you tickets.

GRACE: Thank you, Mr. Kaelin.

KAELIN: Sure.

GRACE: Do you think the plea deals today -- the co-defendants get straight probation, he gets 33 years blind bars, he`ll only do about nine - - is fair?

KAELIN: Well, I think for O.J., he`s thinking right now it`s going to ruin his whole prison fantasy league. You know, he`s hoping that he had someone there that he could -- you know, someone -- you know, they sold him out, basically. They got the great deal. And to know that O.J. got a plea deal and...

GRACE: He could have taken a plea deal.

KAELIN: I`m saying to know that -- is that just another act of stupidity? I mean, this is something that either Yale Galanter made the call, his lawyer, or it was O.J., but how you...

GRACE: No, honey! Listen...

KAELIN: Yes. OK.

GRACE: ... you know nobody is telling Simpson what to do. He`s telling Galanter, which is very difficult for a good defense attorney when their client will not do what you advise them what to do. But listen, Kaelin, you`re the one that knows him. You lived right up under him for all that time. When he`s behind bars, is he going to be just another idiot, or will he somehow become king of the idiots?

KAELIN: Well, first of all, I got to say, I knew Nicole much better, and the kids, of course. You know that. It was Justin and Sydney I was much closer to. You know, they named the dog Kato after me. I knew...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: OK, fine. I`m glad you made that clarification.

KAELIN: I had to because you always say that. But...

GRACE: So you`re closer to...

KAELIN: I think he`s definitely going to -- I definitely know he`s going to make friends in prison immediately because birds of a feather, you know, flock together. And he`s going to be with other criminals, so he`ll definitely make friends right away. And I understand that he`s already buying Snickers bars for them, to make friends with them. Is this true?

GRACE: What about it, Jean Casarez?

CASAREZ: That`s what the reports are saying. And Gabriel Grosso (ph), one of the attorneys, I believe, has said on the record that he is using the money that he`s getting that others are giving to him through the commissary and the jail and now probably prison to buy Snickers bars for the other prisoners.

GRACE: OK, you know what? Fine. I`d be mad if he didn`t, Jean. I don`t care who he buys a candy bar for. That`s not a felony. What is a felony is blasting into a casino room at gunpoint. And of course, I didn`t mention the two dead people in the front yard many years ago.

Out to the lines. Sheeba in Illinois. Hi, Sheeba.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, darling. My question is -- a statement -- is he`s going to make it just fine in prison. A few days, maybe a couple of weeks, everybody`s going to want to be his best buddy, and then it`s going to be inmate Simpson from there on out. And he might as well get used to it.

GRACE: Question? Do you have a question, Sheeba?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I mean, is everybody really worried about how he`s going to adjust to jail...

GRACE: Good question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... and make friends?

GRACE: Everybody, we`re seeing a split screen of the infamous Bronco chase, where Simpson and his friend, Cowlings, led police on a wild goose chase. Simpson was holding himself hostage at gunpoint the entire way. Remember that, Art Harris?

HARRIS: You know, Nancy, 17 minutes of the most watched TV in history. He did not shoot himself. He had $10,000 in his pocket, a passport, and was headed to Mexico, supposedly. Didn`t quite make it, surrendered himself, and the rest is history. You`ve got to...

GRACE: Now, if that`s not an innocent man, I don`t know who is, Gloria Allred.

ALLRED: Yes, not innocent. As a matter of fact, I think one of the ways he got out of being -- being convicted in the murder case was that he didn`t testify. But he did testify in the civil case. So let`s remember the jury in the civil case did find that he was liable for the deaths of Ron and Nicole, may they rest in peace. That`s why they awarded a multi- million-dollar judgment against him.

GRACE: To Ray Giudice and Anne Bremner. You know, Raymond, very often, we hear about so-called jailhouse justice, where other inmates take on the role of Lady Justice -- for instance, in the double murders of Nicole Brown and Ron Simpson. Do you know of a single case -- I can only think of two -- where that ever happened?

GIUDICE: You know, Nancy, that tends to happen with child molestation and child abuse cases, where there seems to be some code of honor amongst even the most vile criminals. I really don`t think that`s going to be a problem for O.J. I really think he is going to make a lot of friends, and I don`t think it`s just going to be amongst the inmates. I`ll bet that if there`s ever a problem on him having some contraband, it`ll be traced back potentially to one of the workers at the prison or one of the marshals or sheriffs there.

GRACE: Anne Bremner?

BREMNER: There was the case of Jeffrey Dahmer, of course, but...

GRACE: That was one of the two, that one and one of the Catholic priests...

BREMNER: Exactly.

GRACE: ... that met up with one of the people he allegedly molested behind bars, and that was the end of him. Those are the only two I know of.

BREMNER: I agree with you, Nancy. But you know, the thing is, there`s three things in life that are certain, death, taxes and karma, and I think he`s had his karma in the conviction in this case.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Denise in Georgia. Hi, Denise.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just wanted to tell you what an honor it is to finally get a chance to talk to you.

GRACE: Well, likewise.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you really think that the sad story that O.J. Simpson told the judge about supposedly getting his, quote, "family stuff" back would greatly influence her in any way, or do you think that was just a sad sack story to try to get off?

GRACE: Yes, I think it influenced her, Denise in Georgia. I think it made her mad as a hornet and she brought down the hammer. Also, let me clue everybody in. Very often, when the judge goes on the bench, they already know what the sentence is going to be. They`ve looked at all the evidence. They`ve listened to everybody. Would you agree, Jonathan?

POLAK: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that judge, after, you know, keeping up with the trial and the way she ran that courtroom, the way in which she kept the witnesses in line, and frankly, the way she kept the lawyers in line, she had that courtroom under control. She wasn`t going to let him get out of control. But that speech that he gave, it wasn`t informative, it was pathetic.

GRACE: And back to Kato Kaelin, witness at the original double murder trial. What is it about Simpson, Mr. Kaelin, that makes everybody, from inmates to wardens, want to be his friend? Are they just ignoring the two dead bodies in the front yard?

KAELIN: You know what? He`s got some celebrity. They probably saw him in some of these movies, and they think, Oh, this is a celebrity and I`m going to become his friend. You know, Nancy, another thing is I think O.J. -- if he would have gotten off from this robbery trial, it wouldn`t have mattered. He`s so narcissistic, I think he would have robbed a year later somebody else. He would have been in another trial. He keeps wanting to do the wrong thing. But they caught him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIM GOLDMAN, SISTER OF RON GOLDMAN: The time that he is not out causing havoc and reminding us of the pain that he caused us 14 years ago is an amazing feeling and to watch him sit there in shackles, to watch him walk back through that door -- twice in our lifetime, he`s walked out the same door as our family, and it was nice to see him walk back into his door and his jail cell.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: To Lauren Howard, psychotherapist. You know, he had it all, Lauren. He had money, a home, a retirement fund, a hot-looking girlfriend, plenty of money to buy dope. Why did he have to go do this?

LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Because he was full of hubris and narcissism and pushed the envelope. And the rules don`t apply to him. He does what he wants and he`s able to negotiate his way around people, getting them to do stuff with him. I mean, this is what this guy has done historically. No reason to think it`s going to stop in prison, either.

GRACE: And to Jean Casarez with "In Session." Is the district attorney releasing the property? Explain.

CASAREZ: Yes, he is. The memorabilia, the property that was the crux of this entire case, the DA is releasing it. So now there`s an issue. The Goldmans believe that that property is due to belong to them. Bruce Fromong, who physically had the property in Las Vegas, he believes the property belongs to him. So there`s going to be an issue now between those two parties.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: You have to keep your strength as much as you can.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I know.

CASEY ANTHONY: You`re doing so great.

CINDY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) when she comes home and then you`re going to need us when you get home.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`ll be fine. I`m fine now because I have you guys. I have you guys, even if it`s not in physical form at the moment. I have your love and support. I have everything that I.

CINDY ANTHONY: It doesn`t (INAUDIBLE).

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s going to need all of us. So we all need to be strong and you need to take care of yourself. I was just telling dad, like I told Lee, you need to eat, you need to sleep. You need to take care of yourself.

CINDY ANTHONY: She`s not going to hurt her, is she?

CASEY ANTHONY: No. I told you, in my gut, I know she`s still OK. I can feel it, mom. I know she`s still OK.


(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: There you see the tot mom on recorded surveillance video from behind bars in personal meetings with her family, her parents, George and Cindy Anthony, brother Lee.

Out to Mark Williams with WNDB Radio 1150. Mark, her attorney goes on national TV this morning and declares she is 100 percent not guilty. I haven`t heard that phrase since Simpson stood in front of a judge in double murder and said that. Bad choice of words.

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Yes, but there is no Ford Bronco involved in this chase right here.

GRACE: Not yet, anyway.

WILLIAMS: Yes, Jose Baez, her attorney, went on the "Today" show with Matt Lauer this morning proclaiming that Casey is 100 percent innocent, saying that Caylee is still alive and well, and telling all of us that we really haven`t heard all of the story yet and we can`t make a judgment in this story, because we really don`t know what we`re all talking about.

He addressed the issue of a change of venue with Mr. Lauer. He says he`s hoping to find an impartial jury here in the Orange County, Orlando area. However, he has his assistants out researching other media markets across the state, maybe shopping around for a possible change of venue, maybe a more impartial jury than what he would find here.

And, of course, the media blitz continues. Cindy and George Anthony on the West Coast, a huge media blitz this weekend.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. We`re taking your calls live. Gloria Allred, Raymond Giudice, Anne Bremner, joining us. Let`s talk about the possible change of venue, very quickly, before we go here, more of those jailhouse and recorded videotaped statements.

To Gloria Allred, he has not moved for a change of venue. Why is he sitting on his thumb? He`s going to wait until the morning of trial?

GLORIA ALLRED, CHILD ADVOCATE: Well, I think he better do it in a timely way. And the real question is, is there going to be any other place where there`s not been national coverage of this? I think -- I mean, there are millions of people that watch NANCY GRACE and watch other shows, as well.

And I think it will be hard for him to find another place. But the point is, you know, he`s going to have to show that he can`t get a fair trial where he is. And I think that`s going to be difficult. It`s always an uphill burden to show that the jury.

GRACE: Right.

ALLRED: . can`t be fair and impartial.

GRACE: Well, Anne Bremner, we know -- you know this is a state case, it`s going to have to be held within Florida. What do you make of the defense attorney going on national TV and outlining the defense strategies?

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I -- he should have said yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus. I mean he should not go out and say 100 percent innocent in a case that`s this problematic.

He needs to go out and move for a change of venue and deal with the defense on the facts that he has, but to come out and do an O.J. Simpson, 100 percent, 110 percent not guilty, I think, was a huge mistake.

GRACE: And you know, Ray, I`m going to play it for you right now, but he seemed to waiver on whether he was actually going forward on January 5. He kept saying, I want to be totally prepared, but yet he wanted to go forward on January 5.

Why is he revealing strategy?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I don`t think he knows what his strategy is. I`m going to be honest with you. Dr. Kobilinsky, the other night, says he hasn`t even reviewed the scientific evidence. We don`t have a change of venue motion even filed, let alone thought out yet. And I -- I think that the.

GRACE: You know what, Ray? You know.

GIUDICE: Yes, Nancy.

GRACE: Let`s just -- let lawyers just come clean.

GIUDICE: Right.

GRACE: . with the viewers right now. It`s all on the computer. It`s not like you`ve got to go camp out in the law library, Ray, to do a change of venue motion.

GIUDICE: No.

GRACE: A change of venue motion is one page.

GIUDICE: That`s right. And remember just.

GRACE: You push a button, the computer spits it out, and you go file it.

GIUDICE: Right. You can hand write it. And just to correct Mr. Williams, he`s not going to be shopping for a venue, the judges find a better venue. That`s not something a defense lawyer gets to pick. The defense lawyer has some input into that, but that`s not done by the defense lawyer.

GRACE: That doesn`t mean Baez can`t window shop, Ray Giudice.

GIUDICE: Yes, he has input.

GRACE: Take a listen..

GIUDICE: And he should look for other jurisdictions.

GRACE: Take a listen to Baez.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: She is innocent. Absolutely, 100 percent innocent, and we`ll have our day in court, we`ll be able to tell everyone the full story, not just a fraction of it, where people have been assuming the worst, and quite frankly, you can`t judge someone`s life based on a fraction of a story.

Currently right now, what we`re doing is doing the research in the different areas, different media markets to see exactly where is the best place to see if we can possibly try this case. That we should be submitting to the court shortly.

We believe that Caylee is alive. And what we want to do -- as her attorney, I have a responsibility to Casey. And that is to do the best job possible. So it`s not an issue of rushing to get a trial just because we expect a body to be found.

MATT LAUER, HOST, TODAY SHOW: So will you delay the trial?

BAEZ: Well, that`s not something we`re willing to do either. My client is sitting in jail, she wants to clear her name. She -- she wants her day in court, and we wanted to have our day in court. So really, it`s all about getting the job done right, going in -- going into trial prepared. And that`s the key goal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: So bottom line, he doesn`t know if he`s asking for a continuance or not. That`s Baez on NBC`s "Today" show, adamant, Caylee is still alive.

To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who is continuing to search for Caylee, the defense attorney keeps talking about how you`ve only seen snippets of her story, as if somebody has held her back.

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn`t police and authorities spend hours and hours with her, her own family, hours and hours, trying to get her to tell the whole story, and it never happened?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, SEARCHING FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, you know, even when we were back there, and now that everything has been released, there`s not much of her story for a 30-day period there that the public doesn`t know and understand.

And Jose is obviously banking on the situation that if you can put a reasonable doubt before a jury, and get them to not believe, at least with one jury member, and that`s what he`s playing for, that`s what Cindy and George are doing right now. They`re crisscrossing the country in order to get reasonable doubt, and maybe, just maybe he can -- he`s got rid of the murder case on the first degree, now he`s trying to get maybe accidental death, or reckless death or something to that effect.

But everybody knows when she died and -- the 30 days is not a secret anymore. And don`t be surprised -- don`t be surprised if Orange County or the FBI don`t drop it on us here that they`ve got the body somewhere.

GRACE: Very quickly, we`re taking your calls live, and I`m about to play you more of this recorded jailhouse videotape of tot mom with her parents. But quickly, to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of John Jay Criminal College of Justice. He is a paid consultant on the Anthony defense team.

Today, Baez seemed to waffle back and forth, and back and forth, about whether you`re going to trial January 5. Have you reviewed the evidence yet, Kobi?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Well, let me first say that when I said the trial would be delayed, that was my own opinion based upon experience with high-profile cases.

GRACE: Sure.

KOBILINSKY: That was not Mr. Baez`s determination.

GRACE: Right.

KOBILINSKY: Now, your question again?

GRACE: Have you seen the evidence? Have you reviewed it?

KOBILINSKY: Well, I mean, I`ve certainly reviewed a great deal of evidence. But I can`t really.

GRACE: You`ve seen the evidence. You`ve seen the evidence.

KOBILINSKY: I`ve seen written reports, just as you have.

GRACE: Well, no, no, no. That`s not what I asked you, Dr. Kobilinsky. I asked you, have you traveled and viewed the evidence? Have you seen the car?

KOBILINSKY: Yes, I.

GRACE: Have you seen the hair?

KOBILINSKY: I have not. But I am also not at liberty to discuss everything that I have seen and discussed with the attorney.

GRACE: Take a listen to tot mom Casey Anthony behind bars.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I have not spoken with Tara in well over two months.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK. She said that she had a 13-minute conversation -- no, no, no, not 13. That was someone else. That she had over an hour conversation with you. She was having issues.

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, exactly, like two months ago. I haven`t talked to her since then.

CINDY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE)

CASEY ANTHONY: You can check the number on my call records.

CINDY ANTHONY: Don`t get upset. I`m just saying.

CASEY ANTHONY: No. I`m -- I`m just telling you, she`s.

CINDY ANTHONY: She`s saying that.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know what she is saying.

CINDY ANTHONY: That you spoke to each other. OK?

CASEY ANTHONY: The babies never spoke to each other. I never even put Caylee on the phone. Don`t listen, mom.

CINDY ANTHONY: No, Casey.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m not getting mad at you.

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, we have to find her before her third birthday.

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I know.

CINDY ANTHONY: That`s coming up fast.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know, we have a couple of weeks.

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t want to wait another minute, let alone.

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t want to wait another minute. I want -- I want her to be found, whether I`m still stuck in here or not. I don`t care.

CINDY ANTHONY: I think once she`s found then you can tell everybody what you know. And you`ll be out -- you`ll be released. Don`t you think?

CASEY ANTHONY: Potentially? I don`t know. Yuri has it set in his mind that I`ve done something.

CINDY ANTHONY: Well, he thinks -- he thinks you guys did something to Caylee.

CASEY ANTHONY: Hey, can you hold on for a second?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I want to openly thank not only our family, but our friends and the community.

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: Yes.

CASEY ANTHONY: For, you know, their unconditional love and support.

L. ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: I want to thank, obviously, all the charities that are donating their time and their efforts, and their resources to help us. I want everyone to keep Caylee and our family in their prayers, and if there`s anyone that has any information, please to come forward without haste.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB Radio, 1150. Mark, what can you tell me about this most recent alleged sighting of Caylee causing grandparents George and Cindy to travel across the country from Orlando to California?

WILLIAMS: Well, it happened in California on November 21st. Two individuals at a restaurant in Crystal Cove, which is near Newport Beach said that they thought they saw a girl that looked a lot like Caylee. They have sworn affidavits, signed sworn affidavits to that effect.

A check with the restaurant out there said we have security cameras, but our videotape doesn`t go back that far. Police out there say they`re looking into it, but they really can`t find any other witnesses. So these two folks who have signed the sworn affidavit have given their information to the George and Cindy Anthony Web site.

GRACE: What more can you tell me, Natisha Lance?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Mark is absolutely right. I spoke to that restaurant today, they said that they -- they are looking into it, they have had everyone from their staff, nobody has said that they saw this little girl.

We also spoke to the police department out there. They said, yes, someone did come forward. However, at the time that they came forward, it was so long after this initial sighting happened that they weren`t really able to do much to follow up on that -- follow up on it.

GRACE: Can you tell me about the family that she was allegedly seen with, Natisha?

LANCE: The family she was allegedly seen with was a Hispanic family. They`re saying that Caylee -- this little girl was a white girl, not Hispanic at all, and they said that they were there at about 7:30 in the evening, having dinner. And that`s all that we know at this point.

GRACE: To Detective Lieutenant Steven Rogers with the Nutley New Jersey Police Department, former member of the FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force.

Detective, thank you for being with us. What do you make of this alleged sighting?

DET. LT. STEVEN ROGERS, NUTLEY N.J. P.D. FBI JOINT TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, you know, there are a lot of sightings when there is a lot of high-profile cases. But I can tell you this. That the police probably gathered enough evidence that they need in order to put the pieces of that story we`re talking about together, and that story will be told in a courtroom.

They`re not going to let, Nancy, no stone be left unturned in this case. They`re going to do everything they could, look at videos, check out all leads. But I`m sure they have a good case or they wouldn`t have come this far.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Erica in Florida. Hi, Erica.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, it`s such a pleasure to talk with you. Your kids are gorgeous.

GRACE: Thank you. And thank you for calling in. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just had a question. As far as the e-mail in reference to the Cindy Anthony giving the FBI or the police the wrong hairbrush.

GRACE: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are they still investigating that, or is that just going to be.

GRACE: Dropped by the wayside? What do we know, Mark Williams?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.

WILLIAMS: Well, right now, we haven`t heard anything new on that. It`s just something that`s under investigation. You know, she allegedly gave the wrong hairbrush to the FBI. But that`s where it stands right now. No word is -- if they`re going to pursue that or if she`s going to be brought up on -- on charges of obstruction. So who knows what`s going to happen with that.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who was in the home after tot mom`s most recent -- release from jail, what can you tell bus the hairbrush incident?

PADILLA: Well, the hairbrush incident was something that we weren`t aware of until it broke on your show. But the one thing we were aware of was the almost giving the dogs toothbrush to the FBI. She made some comment about it, when Tracy repeated it to me, I thought, well, that`s typical Cindyism.

On the other hand, she also has made a comment about when did Tracy get an attorney to talk to? Well, she got that attorney way back when she first came back to Sacramento, because of some incriminating things that Casey had mentioned to her. And she didn`t want to be jacked up on a misprison -- felony type situation.

But let me make a comment on Hispanic versus white girl. I`ve got a brother that looks as light and as red-hair as Robert Redford, and I`ve got relatives that look like O.J. Simpson as far as skin color. So us Hispanics, Mexicans, we come in all shades and colors, so just because a little girl is whiter than her companions doesn`t mean that it`s Caylee.

GRACE: Out to the lines, to Laura in Michigan. Hi, Laura.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, Caylee`s grandparents and lawyer are still believing she`s alive, yet the hair in the trunk showed it was from a decomposing body. You can`t just make a hair show decomposition, so why are they still believing she`s alive?

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Gloria Allred, Raymond Giudice, Anne Bremner.

Gloria, how will they try and explain away that hair to a jury?

ALLRED: Well, I think they`re going to go with the whole doubt defense, basically, that, you know, it could have been this, it could have been that, it could have been the other. Kind of reminds me of Scott Peterson. Well, why didn`t you interview this person, a sexual predator, why didn`t you interview that person?

I think that`s the way they`re going to go. And maybe they`re going to try to say - they`re -- maybe they`re going to try to question the chain of evidence, as well, in reference to the hair, that somehow there was contamination of the lab, and therefore, the test on the hair is not reliable.

GRACE: What about it, Anne Bremner?

BREMNER: Gloria is absolutely right. And there is no body here. And it`s a case where she`s got all kinds of things.

GRACE: Well, what does that have to do with anything, that it`s not body hair? It`s all part of the child`s head.

BREMNER: No, no, I said there`s -- Nancy, that there is no body here. There`s no body in this case.

GRACE: No body here.

BREMNER: Right. And so.

GRACE: There`s just a hair.

BREMNER: Here.

GRACE: . with death ring on it that shows the person is dead.

BREMNER: Well, that -- like Gloria said, you can sure go after forensic evidence, and the bottom line is, this is a case where there`s not a lot of evidence, no direct evidence, and I think you go after doubt and whether or not the baby is still alive. Is Caylee still alive?

GRACE: Ray?

GIUDICE: Following up on what Gloria Allred said, I agree. I think Baez has been shotgun and scatter brained on this from day one. I don`t think he has a focused defense. I think he`s going to throw everything he`s got on the wall and see if anything sticks and I think that`s a mistake.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Betsy in Florida, hi, Betsy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was listening to the tapes of Cindy -- of Casey Anthony in jail. And her mother -- Cindy was talking about what a bad day she had had because she had a flat tire and Caylee responded, "oh, that happened to me as well." And I was just curious as to where she had a flat tire or when and who changed it and was.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: . even in the car.

GRACE: What do we know about that, Natisha Lance?

LANCE: Casey had apparently said that she had a flat tire at some point where she was supposed to go out with her friends. Her friends had to come to her aid, fix the tire. It was on one of the freeways there in Orlando.

GRACE: And also, to Lauren Howard, what do you make of her demeanor behind bars?

LAUREN HOWARD, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: You know, she is a very flat affect. But that`s not enough for me -- that`s not what shows me that she`s guilty or not guilty. There is no question that the argument here is try to muddy these waters and cast doubt because what are all these secrets about? What`s this big story that once everyone knows the truth, you know, everything will be fine?


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: We`ll figure everything out. But I wanted to overlap to where we can all have our time. And all be with her. She is not just my little girl, and I know -- I mean, she`s -- she`s my baby, she will always be my baby. But she will always be your baby and dad`s baby and Lee`s baby. She`s our little girl.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to the lines, Janice in Vermont, hi, Janice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy Grace, I love your show, I go crazy if I don`t get to see it, your babies are beautiful.

GRACE: Thank you very much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re welcome. I was wondering if the father`s hair sample would be the same as the baby`s?

GRACE: The father`s?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

GRACE: To Lawrence Kobilinsky, Dr. Kobilinsky, forensic scientist on the Anthony defense team, when you`re using mitochondrial DNA from hair where you don`t have a root, the father`s DNA, is that an element of the analysis?

KOBILINSKY: Generally not. I think there`s a very, very rare situation referred to as heteroplasmy where the male mitochondrial DNA gets into the fertilized egg. Normally it is not a factor. And they`re strictly maternal inheritance.

GRACE: And very quickly to Anne Bremner, last night we focused on the fact the defense had not issued subpoenas for all of this video where they claim you see little Caylee. After our show they are now issuing subpoenas.

What took so long?

BREMNER: Well, Nancy, you -- have this every night, everyone`s watching you, and they should have about watching you before. You know what happened. They watched your show, and then they did it. And that shows.

GRACE: But the longer they wait the less likely the video is still kept.

BREMNER: Absolutely. Absolutely. And the fact of the matter is they`ve been behind the eight-ball all along.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Steve McCoy, 23, Moultrie, Georgia, killed Iraq on a second tour. Awarded the Purple Heart. An accomplished marksman. Loved football. Leaves behind parents Sam and Pam, grandmother Ann, widow Tabitha, twin toddlers Landon and Lylie.

Steve McCoy, American hero.

Thank you to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And a special good night from Denver friend of the show, Don.

Good night, Don.

Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

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« Reply #53 on: December 11, 2008, 08:42:25 AM »

NANCY GRACE

Follow-Up Lags on Two New Caylee Sightings

Aired December 10, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 25 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell. War breaks out over surveillance video. Is this little Caylee? A cell phone photo taken at an upscale Orlando mall sparks a battle over surveillance video and thousands of tips the Anthonys claim could bring Caylee home alive, the Anthonys fighting tooth and nail in court to get their hands on secret surveillance video from the mall. Is the mystery girl a profile shot of little Caylee?

And now another alleged sighting emerges at a local restaurant all the way across the country, Newport beach, California, all the while, investigators say multiple disks containing over 5,000 tips, taking over 50 man-hours to compile, have been sitting on a police desk, waiting to be picked up. But still, the defense attorney is a no-show. Is it because he knows that tot mom`s guilty of murder, rendering all the tips useless? This as grandparents George and Cindy Anthony publicly insist little Caylee is alive. Why? Do they believe it, or is it just trial strategy?

Both sides gearing up for a legal showdown. The tot mom`s murder trial set for January 5, the defense saying they`re considering a change of venue, but still dragging their heels on that and a speedy trial. And they just keep coming tonight, more stunning private jailhouse conversations between tot mom and her family, grilling her about Caylee`s disappearance. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New details emerge in the case of missing 3-year- old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Tot mom Casey Anthony`s attorney, Jose Baez, reportedly wants surveillance video from the Central Florida Mall, the location of a possible Caylee sighting on November 16.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s this photo by two women using their cell phone camera at the Florida mall. Here Cindy Anthony e-mails the photo to both the sheriff`s office and the FBI, just one of the 5,000 tips which they believe have gone mostly ignored.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Florida mall has so far refused to release the video, so Baez plans to ask the judge to force the mall to hand it over. A separate Caylee sighting in Newport Beach, California, is being investigated by George and Cindy Anthony themselves, as they travel to the "left coast" to determine if the child sighted is a living, breathing Caylee.

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: I`m doing everything I can, everything I can to help you and help her. I wish there was more I could do. I would give my life right now for you and for her to have you together.

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: I know that, Dad.

GEORGE ANTHONY: So would mom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, a gorgeous young morning show TV anchor brutally attacked, left for dead in her Arkansas home. After police admit very few clues at the scene, suddenly, a break. DNA evidence links a separate attack nearly 100 miles away, leading police straight to a prime murder suspect. Tonight, was the brutal assault of the 26-year-old Anne Pressly random, or was the stunning young anchorwoman the target all along?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking developments in the case of murdered Arkansas anchorwoman Anne Pressly. Authorities have arrested and charged 28-year-old Curtis Lavell Vance in the brutal beating and murder of Anne Pressly after DNA from Pressly`s home was linked to him. The DNA that was taken from Pressly`s home matched a suspect in an April rape case in a town 90 miles away. Police were led to Vance after a detective working the rape case suggested officers investigate him. DNA from Vance`s saliva matched him to both crimes, and now Vance faces capital murder charges. Pressly, who her parents say was also a victim of sex assault, was found bloody and beaten inside her own home. Pressly never regained consciousness, dying in the hospital five days after the attack.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can tell you that the affidavit included facts that there was forensic evidence that was found in the victim`s home that connected him to the crime.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More breaking developments in the case of missing toddler Caylee Anthony. The alleged live sighting of Caylee at the Florida mall has caused a stir, and now Casey Anthony`s attorney wants video from security cameras inside the mall.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: There are just too many characteristics that stood out that it could be her. We`re not saying that it is her, we`re saying that it`s just another tip that somebody in the community believed it was her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to reports, Jose Baez will ask a Florida judge to force the mall to turn over video from November 16, the day multiple people spotted the child. While George and Cindy Anthony are out in California to appear on national television, they will also be investigating another live sighting of Caylee in the Newport Beach area.

CASEY ANTHONY: We miss her. We love her. I miss her. I love her dearly. And I want nothing more than for her to come home and to be safe and to be where she belongs with her family. It`s obvious that we`ll stop at nothing to get her back because I know in my heart, I know in my gut, I know with every ounce of my being that we will be with her again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, maybe in heaven. Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. War has broken out over surveillance video. And it`s all sparked from this photo taken with a cell phone at an upscale mall, the Florida mall there in Orlando. Why won`t the mall just give the video to the grandparents? What`s the problem?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, the problem is, Nancy, is that the mall apparently has a policy through their management that they...

GRACE: Oh, please. Did you just say policy?

WILLIAMS: I`m just...

GRACE: Who cares about policy?

WILLIAMS: Well, I agree, Nancy, but here`s the deal. They`re only going to turn it over to Orange County sheriffs` investigators, since it is an active investigation. So they don`t want the Anthonys with their hands on it or anything else. So what...

GRACE: Why?

WILLIAMS: ... Jose Baez is -- because...

GRACE: Because what?

WILLIAMS: That is a good question, because three of the -- three security people have already seen this. They`ve already gone to the Anthonys. So Jose Baez...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait! They`ve seen it, they`ve gone to the Anthonys...

WILLIAMS: Yes.

GRACE: ... and said what?

WILLIAMS: We have this video, you should have it, you should see it. And the mall refuses to turn it over.

GRACE: Did you say that mall investigators or police investigators went to the Anthonys?

WILLIAMS: I`m saying mall security personnel.

GRACE: Mall security. OK. So to me, that is cruel to go to the Anthonys and say, Hey, you need to see this video, but we`re not going to give it to you. That is complete BS. Policy, shmolicy! It`s Florida mall in Orlando refusing to hand over the security video. And let me ask you something, Mark Williams.

WILLIAMS: Yes?

GRACE: Are the cameras obvious? Can you see the cameras, or are they where these people with this little girl would not have known they were being surveilled?

WILLIAMS: I have not been out to the Florida mall in a little more than a year, and...

GRACE: Did you see cameras, Mark Williams?

WILLIAMS: I`ll tell you what, it`s probably Las Vegas style. Like any other mall in the country, you`ll see the brown bubbles or the black bubbles, and that`s where they probably shoot it from.

GRACE: You know what? You`re most likely correct. So tell me -- to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, joining us from Orlando. You know, this photo and this security video has been around since when? When was this photo taken, Petrimoulx?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: It was taken on November 16. And Jose Baez wants a subpoena -- he`s actually issued a subpoena for the tapes as a way of getting around this mall policy. He wants between the hours of 1:00 PM and 5:00 PM on that day. He wants those tapes, and he`s filed that with the courts.

GRACE: And isn`t it true, Natisha Lance, that he just filed a subpoena after we lambasted him on air for sitting on his thumb, doing nothing to get that videotape?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: It is true, he did just file the subpoena as of Friday of last week. However, Nancy, I did speak to the Orange County sheriff`s office, and they said even if they wanted to get the surveillance video, they would have to file a subpoena, as well. It would just not be handed over to...

GRACE: Well, let me clue you in, Natisha. Filing a subpoena is not a big mystery. It`s very easy to do. In fact, let me show you. It`s a form. All you do is write, "state versus Casey Anthony," and you put the indictment number. You write in there, it`s a subpoena ducus tecum (ph), which means a subpoena not for testimony but for an object or a document. You fill in what you want and you deliver it to the mall. In Florida, you may have to get an OK from the court or the court clerk. It`s easy -- one, two, three. What`s the hold-up, Natisha Lance?

LANCE: Well, he`s filed it now, so I guess we`ll have to wait and see.

GRACE: He filed it now. Correct me if I am wrong, but hasn`t about a month passed since this photo emerged?

LANCE: Yes, this photo did emerge November 16. So it has been quite a while.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, former prosecutor out of D.C. Tad DiBiase, Alex Sanchez, veteran trial lawyer out of New York, and Alan Ripka, defense attorney also out of New York.

Alan Ripka, don`t they get it? Time is of the essence. You know, as in the Chandra Levy, where there was video, it was taped over. That`s very common in business establishments.

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It absolutely is. And there`s often a policy of keeping a videotape, you know, for only 30 days because of storage. But in this case, Nancy, I`m quite sure that Jose Baez was on the phone, was trying to get this video and was probably assured it would be turned over to him. That`s why he didn`t file the subpoena.

GRACE: Right. So if you`re trying to find a girl, a little girl, that you believe is alive, Alex Sanchez, or so you say on the air -- so you say on the "Today" show, she`s alive -- instead of following up immediately and trying to find the little girl, you wait a month? Explain, Alex.

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, I think that Mr. Baez believed that the police and the FBI went out of their way to try to get this tape. After all, why wouldn`t they go and get this tape and then turn it over to Baez and turn it over to the courts? So they waited a couple weeks, believing that the police would have followed a legitimate lead.

GRACE: A month.

SANCHEZ: But they didn`t.

GRACE: A month. Don`t say a couple weeks.

SANCHEZ: Wait a minute. Aren`t the police...

GRACE: The police said up front they don`t believe this is Caylee. They believe Caylee is dead.

SANCHEZ: Yes. Aren`t the police being irresponsible by not at least getting that tape, looking at it and resolving that problem and that issue once and for all?

GRACE: No. This is the defense argument. They`re the ones that want the videotape.

To Tad DiBiase out of D.C. Why did they drag their feet? I`ve got a theory. Because they may know that the tot mom is guilty of murder, and therefore, they know this isn`t little Caylee. So what`s the hurry, Tad?

TAD DIBIASE, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, it`s possible that`s true, Nancy, although I would say in no-body cases, it`s very common to have sightings of the victim. So it is incumbent upon the police and the prosecution to knock this down, if they`re able to do so, and presumably, they would be able to do so. So both sides should have gotten this tape as quickly as possible.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This grandmother says nothing is more frustrating to her than working with the sergeant in the Orange County sheriff`s office who won`t help her get the surveillance video from places where people say they`ve seen Caylee.

CINDY ANTHONY: If the sheriff`s office was requested, then it would make them look like they`re looking for a live Caylee, and that would hurt their case against my daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He told you that.

CINDY ANTHONY: He absolutely exactly told me that in his exact words.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a roadblock that isn`t deterring Cindy as she continues to look for her missing granddaughter while preparing for what may be her first Christmas without Caylee since she was born.

CINDY ANTHONY: Caylee has a tree for her room. Casey has a tree for her room. The kids have always had a Christmas tree from their very first Christmas.

If you think of anything that can help, don`t be afraid.

CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, I won`t hesitate to let you guys know.

CINDY ANTHONY: You can`t be afraid, Casey, of anybody. You`ve got to get that strength from me and your dad and your brother. I know you have it in you. OK? You need to get that strength inside and do not feel like someone can hang anything over you or anything over us or threaten us because, well, you have said, you`re protecting your family. You don`t need to protect the family. Family has been through a lot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: War breaks out of -- over secretly recorded video taken from an upscale Orlando mall, the Florida Mall. This photo that you are looking at was taken from a pedestrian, a shopper`s cell phone. She immediately contacted authorities. Is there video revealing this little girl? The grandparents say yes, and it will prove Caylee is alive. Authorities say no, the girl is dead. All the while, tot mom sits behind bars, facing a January 5 trial date for murder.

I want to go straight back to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter and one of the few people still searching for little Caylee. Leonard Padilla, what do you make of this sighting? Have you seen the shot of this little girl? And why doesn`t the mall just hand over the video to the grandparents?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, you`ve got a lot of bureaucracy involved there, but let me tell you...

GRACE: In a mall?

PADILLA: In a mall, you`ve got...

GRACE: I mean, I can see in Washington, D.C., but hello, a mall?

PADILLA: You`ve got bureaucracy. Until somebody in that mall steps forward and says, Here it is, take it, they`re just going to be at a stalemate. But let me tell you, Caylee...

GRACE: Go ahead.

PADILLA: Caylee, beyond all reasonable doubt, is deceased. The FBI knows it. Orange County knows it. Cindy and George know it. And most of all, Casey, the perpetrator of her death, knows it. They al absolutely, positively know it.

GRACE: Do you believe, Leonard Padilla, that that is why, when the grandparents get a tip -- for instance, this new tip out of Newport Beach, California at Javier`s (ph) restaurant -- they wait? They don`t release it to the public? They sit on it. They keep saying they`re going to have a press conference, they never do. Is it because they know the little girl is dead, or do they really believe she`s alive?

PADILLA: No, they think about it. They also know one thing, and that is that these tapes are taped over. They know that they want to raise doubt. They want to have one juror on that jury somewhere down the road possibly believe that maybe in Newport at Javier`s, she was there. It`s not true. It`s absolutely not true. It`s all fiction, and it`s made up to confuse the future jury, if there is ever a jury, if there is no plea bargain achieved.

GRACE: Very quickly, back to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. I want to talk about this shot. Mark, apparently, it`s in a common area, it`s not within any particular store. Is there a play area? You know, like in McDonald`s or Burger King, they have, like, a little play area, like a mini-playground for children? Where is this?

WILLIAMS: It appears that it was taken in the -- like, the center court area of the mall. That`s kind of the common area where everybody kind of congregates, wait for their spouses to come out of stores.

Now, this picture was taken by a woman by the name of Hilema Solomita (ph). She is a worker, an employee of a nearby jewelry store only feet away from where this little girl was found. She took the picture. And then she was with a friend. They tried to call Crimeline, or one of tip lines here in town, and they waited 20 minutes. They finally just hung up the phone because they didn`t get any response.

GRACE: And Mark, what can you tell me about the location of this mall? Is it near an interstate, or is it a place that only locals would know about?

WILLIAMS: No, it`s well known. It`s even well known by international travelers. During my visits over there to the mall, I see a lot of folks from other countries coming in there. It`s at the corner of Sand Lake Road and Orange Blossom Trail. It`s a very big commercial area. You know, I`ve been -- I went to -- first came down here about 25 years ago to look around, and the area has just exploded with commercial ventures.

GRACE: So basically, anybody could have been in that mall, not just locals with the Caylee look-alike.

WILLIAMS: That`s right.

GRACE: Back to the lawyers. To Alex Sanchez, defense attorney out of New York. Is it just trial strategy? Because if I were the defense, that`s the first thing I`d put up on a big-screen TV -- Look, here she is. This is little Caylee, and the police haven`t investigated it.

SANCHEZ: You know, I don`t believe that. I think that`s a very cynical approach to what is happening...

GRACE: I`m asking you.

SANCHEZ: I think that these parents believe that that child is alive, and they have a right to look at possible sightings and examine that evidence to see if there`s any truth to it.

GRACE: And isn`t it true, Alan Ripka, if you want to win a case, you`ve got to anticipate what the other side is going to do.

RIPKA: Of course you do, Nancy. But don`t forget, this is strangers who took this photo. The Anthonys had nothing to do with this photo being taken, so there was no trial strategy here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: Dad, I don`t care about all this other stuff. I mean, I don`t care about the media. I don`t care about what people have been saying about me. That doesn`t matter because I know it`s not true and everyone that knows me knows it isn`t true. All I want is Caylee home. But I want to be there when she comes home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Somehow, it all always gets back to the tot mom getting out of jail. Not one single legitimate conversation about the search for Caylee on these recorded jailhouse videotapes. As we go to air tonight, the grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony, are in California following up on a lead out of Newport Beach, California.

What can you tell me about it, Natisha Lance?

LANCE: Well, this tip came five days after the Florida mall sighting, so it would have been November 21. Apparently, this little girl was with a family of Spanish origin. The family was speaking more Spanish, the little girl was speaking more English. There was a couple there. They spotted this little girl.

Now, they didn`t report this tip until just last week. Now, police, because it was so long after this actually occurred, they weren`t really able to follow up on it as much as they would like to, but they did refer them to central Florida Crimeline, and central Florida would get back with police if there was anything that they needed to follow up on.

Now, I spoke to the manager at Javier`s restaurant. She said that no one in the restaurant has come forward and said that they actually saw this little girl. Also, they do have surveillance cameras at this restaurant. However, since so much time has passed, they said that they don`t keep those tapes for very long.

GRACE: Once again, to Vince Velazquez, homicide detective out of the Atlanta metro area and hostage negotiator -- Vince, they sat on their thumb, and it was taped over. Why? Doesn`t anybody watch TV?

VINCE VELAZQUEZ, HOMICIDE DETECTIVE, ATLANTA METRO: Nancy, if they wanted that surveillance videotape, they have -- he`s an officer of the court, just like I am as a detective, like any prosecutor is. He could have dropped the subpoena off a month ago. He would have had that tape already. I don`t know what the strategy is. I`m not an attorney. But it does seem to me that waiting for the tape, there is a possibility that when they go to get it, it won`t be there.

GRACE: You`re certainly right, Vince. And back to Natisha Lance. You stated "they," they didn`t report it. Who is "they"? Who are you talking about? Who didn`t report the Newport Beach, California, sighting?

LANCE: That is this couple who saw her. It is apparently a lawyer and his girlfriend. The girlfriend is the one who went to the police department to make this report. However, they have given sworn affidavit statements to the private investigator for the Anthony family. And they said that they are very credible.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I just want her back.

CINDY ANTHONY: I know you do.

CASEY ANTHONY: God!

CINDY ANTHONY: You have to keep thinking positive. Positive feelings, Casey.

CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, I know. I have been. I`ve been staying as positive as I can.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: She is beautiful. You know that, I know that. And I`m hoping.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: I hear that every day. I know.

G. ANTHONY: I said, you know, that the photos of her are beautiful. But when you see her in front of you, the eyes.

C. ANTHONY: She`s captivating. She`s absolutely captivating.

G. ANTHONY: She has a personality that`s so, so remarkable. And I said, I owe that, you know, to my daughter, I owe that to my wife, myself, I -- you know, my son. Other family members that have made her so excitable because she`s just a fantastic little girl.

C. ANTHONY: She has the best in all of us, and that`s something I`ve been thinking about. She has the best that we all do. And she shows it all the time. I mean, she has the little quirky things about her that you do, you know, or that you have and same thing with mom.

I mean, she is the best of the four of us. She is. She`s that top point in our star. You said that we`re like a hand. We`re also like a star.

G. ANTHONY: There`s a lot of hard decisions to make. We`re trying to find that little girl. We`re trying.

C. ANTHONY: I know you are.

G. ANTHONY: I mean all of us have experienced a lot of different things. We have so many questions. We have emotions and -- but if there is anything at all that you want to share, you know, you`ve got to share it. You know, write it down. You know? I mean, I know Mr. Baez is working on your best interest, but, you know.

C. ANTHONY: My number one.

G. ANTHONY: Let me ask you something. Would you be interested in talking to, like, an FBI guy or something?

C. ANTHONY: Anyone that you guys want to bring in, I`ll talk to.

G. ANTHONY: OK. That`s great, that`s great news. OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Battle breaks out over secretly-recorded mall surveillance video after this cell phone photo emerges from the Florida mall there in Orlando.

As we go to air, grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony in California, following up on a tip out of Newport Beach, California at a local restaurant called Javier`s. A lawyer and his girlfriend spot a Caylee look-alike.

But has the video been taped over?

Straight back to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150, did police follow up on the Newport, California tip?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: They did, Nancy. They went out there after they received the report, and they talked to the manager. They also talked to some of the employees. But there were no witnesses.

The employees didn`t know really what was going on. All they had was that tip that was given to them by that couple. And that`s pretty much it, Nance.

GRACE: Out to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientist from John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He`s a paid consultant to the Casey Anthony defense team. You know, in the last 24 hours, defense attorney Jose Baez has gone on national TV, suggesting he wants to go forward with trial January 5.

Are you prepared to testify?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Oh, I am prepared to testify. I can tell you that he has been not just doing the "Today" show, but, you know, he`s been visiting experts, and he has been working hard.

He`s an advocate, he`s zealous, and he really believes that the child is still alive, and everything will come out in the courtroom.

GRACE: Really? So you`re prepared to testify without having viewed the evidence? I`d never let you get on the stand like that.

KOBILINSKY: Well, I would testify about certain things. Obviously, I can`t testify.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, I`m sorry. I couldn`t hear you. Repeat?

KOBILINSKY: I said I would testify about certain things that are within my area of expertise.

GRACE: And your area of expertise is DNA.

KOBILINSKY: That`s correct.

GRACE: OK. So to the lawyers, Tad Dibiase, D.C., Alex Sanchez, New York, Alan Ripka, New York.

Alan, the first thing he`s going to be asked on cross-examination is, isn`t it true, Dr. Kobilinsky, tell the jury, you haven`t even seen the evidence? You haven`t handled it. You haven`t held it in your hands and looked at it. Much less put it under a microscope, isn`t that true?

Question number one.

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s true, Nancy. What he`s going to be asked is what supports his opinion? You`re giving an opinion, you want the jury to rely upon, but you have nothing to support it, because you have not investigated the evidence and it`s not going to be credible.

GRACE: Alex?

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know I seriously doubt Dr. Kobilinsky is going to get on that witness stand without having reviewed all the.

GRACE: He said he`s ready.

SANCHEZ: . available.

GRACE: He said he`s ready.

SANCHEZ: But this case is definitely not going to trial on January 4th. There is too much information. There`s too many reports that have to be reviewed and completed.

GRACE: Oh, listen now, wait a minute.

SANCHEZ: And Dr. Kobilinsky is probably.

GRACE: Alex.

SANCHEZ: . not prepared nearly to get on the witness stand and testify yet.

GRACE: I know Kobilinsky. I know Kobilinsky, and believe you me, he`s read every existing report backwards.

SANCHEZ: And there`s additional reports.

GRACE: But he hasn`t seen the evidence. He hasn`t seen the evidence, Alex.

SANCHEZ: Well, that`s exactly why he is probably not going to testify on January 4th. He wants more time. I know Dr. Kobilinsky, very thorough, he wants more time to review this evidence so that he could be -- so he could testify properly.

GRACE: Yes, you know what? There is a reason he is summoned in all over the country, Tad Dibiase, because he`s thorough. And what he hasn`t done, though, is he hasn`t put that hair, that`s his expertise. DNA. Deoxyribonucleic acid.

He has not put that hair, the death hair, the so-called death hair belonging to Caylee, found in the trunk of tot mom`s car under a microscope. He hasn`t viewed the back of the car to see that stain ostensibly human DNA. Human stain from decomposition.

So wouldn`t you agree the first question on cross-exam is why haven`t you seen the evidence, Doctor?

TAD DIBIASE, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Absolutely. You can`t have credibility unless you have actually looked at all the evidence and evaluated it. To do so without getting up there makes it easy fodder for a prosecution to, frankly, rip you apart in front of a jury and then toss you aside when your own experts take the stand and say we have looked at this evidence. It`s not -- I think it is also unlikely it was.

GRACE: So all this that the defense attorney is saying, for instance, on the "Today" show, is complete and total BS.

Take a listen to the defense attorney on national TV.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: She`s innocent. Absolutely, 100 percent innocent. And we`ll have our day in court. We`ll be able to tell everyone the full story. Not just a fraction of it where people have been assuming the worst.

And quite frankly, you -- can`t judge someone`s life based on a fraction of the story. Currently, right now, what we`re doing is doing the research and the different areas, different media markets to see exactly where`s the best place to see if we could possibly try this case.

That we should be submitting to the court shortly.

We believe that Caylee is alive. And what we want to do -- as her attorney, I have a responsibility to Casey. And that is to do the best job possible. So it`s not an issue of rushing to get a trial, just because we expect a body to be found.

MATT LAUER, "TODAY" SHOW HOST: So will you delay the trial?

BAEZ: Well, that`s not something we`re willing to do, either. My client is sitting in jail. She wants to clear her name. She -- she wants her day in court, and we want to have our day in court. So really, it`s all about getting the job done right, going into -- going into trial prepared. And that`s the key goal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Really? It`s just about answering Matt Lauer`s question, trying to sound like you`re making any sense.

That`s Jose Baez, defense attorney on NBC`s "Today" show, adamant that little Caylee is still alive.

Correct me if I`m wrong, but didn`t I just hear him say, Dr. Lillian Glass, psychologist out of L.A., he said, "We`re doing research to find out if we could try the case." Clue. You`re going to try the case, Jose Baez. You`re going to trial whether you like it or not. I mean is that a Freudian slip?

LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "I KNOW WHAT YOU`RE THINKING": Oh, you bet. And so is his body language, if you look at it. You know when he shakes his head no, and he is saying things in the affirmative. So there is a lot between the lines when you look at that interview.

GRACE: Like what? What? What am I supposed to read from the body language? You`re the expert.

GLASS: Well, you`re supposed to read that he doesn`t think she`s alive, because you see -- you know, Caylee is alive, we really believe she is, as he shakes his head no. And that tells you a lot. The body doesn`t lie.

GRACE: Oh, you mean like if I say yes, yes, and I`m shaking my head no, I`m giving -- got it.

GLASS: Yes.

GRACE: All right. OK. Speaking of body language, take a look at tot mom behind bars.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: If we don`t find her, you know, they`re building -- they`re trying to build a case against you, honey.

C. ANTHONY: They`ve already -- that`s what they`ve been doing. I know that`s the other two detectives` main goal is building a case.

CINDY ANTHONY: I know, and that`s why I`m so frustrated because I know.

C. ANTHONY: That`s why I`m frustrated. That`s why I don`t want to speak to either of them because it`s not going to do any good. It really isn`t.

CINDY ANTHONY: Well, we`ll make it happen with this other person.

C. ANTHONY: Thank you.

CINDY ANTHONY: And like I said, if we can get an outside source, like FBI to talk to.

C. ANTHONY: If you can get someone outside, that`s fine. Bring in whoever. By any means.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

C. ANTHONY: You and I are on the same page with that. We will do whatever is necessary.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK. All right, honey. I believe that.

Is it just the local police you don`t feel comfortable to?

C. ANTHONY: Oh, it`s just.

CINDY ANTHONY: Or is it just the authority in general?

C. ANTHONY: It`s those two specific. It`s Adam Zembelic. No, Happy Wells. The other.

CINDY ANTHONY: Allen and Melich.

C. ANTHONY: Allen. Yes. Sorry, John Allen and Melich.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

C. ANTHONY: The other guy that came to the house, I don`t know if you remember him very well. He went by Happy. His last name is Wells.

CINDY ANTHONY: Happy Wells? You want to talk to Wells?

C. ANTHONY: I would speak to him -- of any of the -- you know, the detectives.

CINDY ANTHONY: Would you speak with him with Jose or by himself?

C. ANTHONY: I would speak to him alone, with Jose, it doesn`t matter. He`s -- we had a lot of conversations when I sat up in the room that day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: TV anchorwoman, Anne Pressly, beaten and stabbed at her home in Little Rock. The 26-year-old was found by her mother, unresponsive and bleeding from severe wounds.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our hearts are heavy here at KATV after learning that our own Anne Pressly died from injury she suffered during a brutal attack on her home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Authorities have arrested and charged 28-year- old Curtis Lavelle Vance in the brutal beating and murder of Anne Pressly after DNA from Pressly`s home was linked to him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is specific forensic evidence that they were able to link directly to the suspect. The Little Rock Police Department, I know, throughout the entire process, was extremely careful in their processing of the evidence, and making sure that they have a good, strong solid case. And so we`re confident in that aspect.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you`re confident they have the right person.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, absolutely.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are a the although of people that are really intensely eager to find out what the facts are, and at this point in time, due to all the hard work at the police crime lab, we probably don`t need to say.

I can tell you the affidavit includes facts that the -- that there were forensic evidence that was found in the victim`s home that connected him to the crime.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: About 4:30 in the morning, this stunning young anchorwoman`s mother comes to her home to find her daughter left for dead. Her face crushed and bleeding so badly, police originally thought she had had been stabbed.

In fact, it was a beating death. Five days later, after lingering in the hospital, she passes away. Now tips lead police nearly 100 miles away to a prime suspect.

To Dana Bradley, reporter with KARN Newsradio and former co-worker of Anne Pressly`s, what`s the latest?

DANA BRADLEY, KARN NEWSRADIO, FMR. CO-WORKER OF ANNE PRESSLY: Well, Little Rock District Judge Lee Martin has set a gag order on the case, and that`s become the big news here, because the local paper here says, no, that`s not right.

They`re trying to find out some information dealing with Curtis Lavelle Vance who is the suspect in this case, who`s in jail here. They want to read different jail log records and try to find out what they can, but it`s pretty much under a gag order, so there`s not too much more we can find out from the Little Rock Police Department.

GRACE: Well, I know this much, Jane Velez-Mitchell, the host of "ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL" airing just before our show -- Jane, I know that DNA apparently links him not only to Pressley, DNA found in the form of semen, blood and even skin under Pressly`s fingernails.

She fought to live, apparently attacked in her bed as she lay sleeping. DNA links him, allegedly, to not only her attack, but a rape attack, nearly 100 miles away.

JANE VELEZ MITCHELL, HOST, ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s right, Nancy. And that alleged rape occurred seven months earlier, and it took the authorities months and months and months to process that DNA.

And the question is, why did it take them so long? Because had had they processed that DNA and tracked down this suspect, Curtis Vance, months earlier, Anne Pressly might be alive today.

But it took them a long time. Then they finally matched up that DNA from that then unsolved rape with Pressly`s DNA, the same person, and they tracked this Curtis Vance down to this little town 100 miles east of Little Rock. They interviewed him, he gave a DNA swab. Turns out that`s the guy, and that`s how they caught him.

GRACE: Correction, Jane Velez-Mitchell, she would be alive today.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You are right.

GRACE: You hit the nail on the head.

Back to Dana Bradley with KARN. You know, when they got the Pressly case involved, it took them one day, one day to match up the DNA. But that rape case, 100 miles away lingered for months?

BRADLEY: Well, they`re saying -- I asked that question. And the thing with that is, when they got that DNA from the rape case from the young -- the teacher who was raped in Mariana, they didn`t have a suspect to match that DNA to. So when the second case -- when the second case came about with Anne Pressly, the DNA was in the system already.

So that`s how they matched the two together. So it did take a long time for the DNA to come back. But they did not have a suspect to match the DNA to.

GRACE: Well, that makes sense, Dana Bradley. But let me ask you this. Does he have a criminal history? Was his DNA already in the DNA data bank, CODIS?

BRADLEY: No, it wasn`t. His prior history was basically for traffic tickets and stuff like that. He did not have a criminal history, and they were -- he was under investigation in Mariana for burglaries and things of that sort, but nothing that he had been arrested for.

GRACE: Which goes back to my premise.

Let`s unleash the lawyers. Tad Dibiase out of Washington, Alex Sanchez and Alan Ripka out of New York. I believe that when you`re charged with a felony, such as burglary, if you go to trial, and you`re convicted, or you enter a guilty plea -- to Alan Ripka -- I think your DNA needs to go, not just to your fingerprint, but your DNA needs to go into CODIS that day, because they would have matched him up to the original rape, and Pressley would be alive today, Alan Ripka.

RIPKA: Well, you`re saying had they arrested him on the burglary charge, she would be alive today. Like your prior guest said, there was no link to him at that particular time. So it wouldn`t have mattered, Nancy, in this case.

GRACE: He had prior -- Dana, did he have a prior burglary?

BRADLEY: He was under -- the Mariana police were investigating him for burglary.

GRACE: Oh, just under investigation. I understand. Thank you, Dana.

BRADLEY: He hasn`t been arrested for burglary.

GRACE: Thank you, Dana.

Now, isn`t it true, Jane Velez-Mitchell, that women at a gym, a sports club had stated he was stalking women outside the club? I mean this guy`s been everywhere. Everybody knew he was roaming around neighborhoods where he didn`t live. He was hanging around sports clubs, ogling women that came in and out?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly, Nancy. Why wasn`t he picked up for these burglaries? Because at one point, the police in the small town in which he lives, Mariana, said, oh yes, you know, there is this guy that has been lurking in yards and going into people`s houses and he`s a suspect in a couple of burglaries.

Why wasn`t he arrested if he was a suspect in a couple burglaries? And why was he out there lurking around until they finally got this DNA, and they put two and two together?

GRACE: And to Alan Ripka, defense attorney out of New York, the MOs of the two attacks, rapes, one a murder, in addition, are startlingly similar, both inside a freestanding home, not an apartment, the woman home alone, he breaks in undetected, a sex attack goes down, and flees with certain objects.

It`s -- I predict that one will come in at the trial of the other.

RIPKA: As you know, Nancy, the judge will make that determination before the trial starts to determine whether or not that evidence is more prejudicial than probative.

GRACE: Come on, Alan, you know it`s coming in. We`ll pick that up when we come back.

But as we go to break, a special happy birthday to Georgia friend of the show, Macey, celebrating her sweet 16 today.

Happy birthday, Macey.

And at your request, new photos of the twins. They`ll be on the Web tonight. I hope you like them. Here`s John David, exploring nature, and Lucy, look. You only buy expensive gifts, and I`ve got a few that were gifts, but her favorite toy is this old box. There`s nothing in it.

Oh, they got that monkey as a gift, and they must put it on their heads. There she is back in the box. John David with the monkey and his pretend cell phone.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We had felt all along that the police had a very solid, very strong case. So that tells me the judge concurred with the evidence that was presented to him initially. So we`re looking forward to a trial in which we anticipate that the prosecutor will prevail in a capital murder case, and then we`re looking forward to a conviction that is appropriate for capital murder.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The stunning anchorwoman died five days later from a brain stem that was ruptured. The crime scene covered in blood, apparently throwback from the murder weapon.

Back to Jane Velez-Mitchell from "ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL," was a murder weapon ever discovered in Pressly`s murder?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, and I have to say, Nancy, that this woman was so brutally beaten that there were literally bones popping out of her face, and her left hand was broken, pointing out that she put up a fierce and valiant struggle.

The other woman who says that she was raped by this same individual, has courageously come forward and said that she was attacked from behind. She didn`t put up a struggle and she is alive to talk about it.

GRACE: To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientist out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice, the crime scene must be a field day for crime scene techs getting DNA evidence.

KOBILINSKY: Sure. There`s a lot of blood spatter, I think that is -- that reveals a lot about the events that took place during the attack. Different kinds of patterns.

GRACE: Right.

KOBILINSKY: . dynamic static, so there`s a lot of information there.

GRACE: Alex Sanchez, he`s likely looking at the needle.

SANCHEZ: Yes, I mean, this is a very egregious crime and you know, if he gets convicted, certainly these aggravating factors are going to come into consideration before the jury, and there`s a very good chance that if he`s convicted, he`s looking at the end of a rope or he`s looking at a needle.

GRACE: Let`s stop and remember right now Marine Lance Corporal Kelly Waters, just 19, Virginia Beach, Virginia, killed in Iraq, on a second tour, awarded two Purple Hearts, combat action ribbon, lost his life, his parents by his side as he battled severe injuries at a stateside hospital.

Dreamed of buying a Dodge Charger, loved dance, music and movies. Favorite snacks? Slim Jims. Leaves behind parents, Peter and Lisa, three brothers and one sister.

Kelly Watters, American hero.

Thanks to our guest but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END


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KING: Now joining us George and Cindy Anthony. They are the grandparents of missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Their daughter Casey is Caylee's mom and she's in jail now, charged with first degree murder, aggravated child abuse and lying to investigators.

Before we start, let's watch the gripping jailhouse video of Casey talking with her parents.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF MISSING CAYLEE ANTHONY: Hey gorgeous, how are you doing?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE ANTHONY: I look like hell.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, you know something, you really need to keep your spirit high for all this.

CASEY ANTHONY: I have. I haven't been crying while I've been in here.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, you know something...

CASEY ANTHONY: I've been trying to read books and do other things to keep my mind off of stuff.

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE ANTHONY: Listen, I'm in front of the cameras all the time.

What message do you want me to give to Zanny and to Kate and to Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: A short...

CINDY ANTHONY: What do you want me to tell Zanny?

CASEY ANTHONY: That she needs to return Caylee. I forgive her.

CINDY ANTHONY: What do you think her reasons are?

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I don't know.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: I forgive her. My only concern is that Caylee comes back to us and she's smiling and she's happy and that she is -- she's OK.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

What do you want me to tell Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: That mommy loves her very much and she's the most important thing in this entire world to me. And to be brave.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: By the way, you heard that -- on that tape -- a reference to Zanny, who Casey claimed was the little girl's nanny -- the woman who allegedly kidnapped her. That woman says she didn't even know the family and has been cleared by police.

There's a lot to cover with the Anthonys. We're glad to have them here. We'll get into it right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We now welcome George and Cindy Anthony, the grandparents of the missing Florida toddler, Caylee Anthony. They last saw her in mid-June.

How are you holding up?

CINDY ANTHONY: We take one day at a time. You know, it's very hard -- a lot of sleep lost, lost a lot of weight. You know, we just take one day at a time.

KING: When did you last see Caylee?

GEORGE ANTHONY: I last saw her on June 16th, the day after Father's Day.

KING: What happened the day she went missing?

CINDY ANTHONY: We actually didn't find out until July so...

KING: She had been missing how long when you found out?

CINDY ANTHONY: About a month. And...

KING: Isn't that strange?

CINDY ANTHONY: Well, not really. My daughter, you know, had her. And, you know, we just -- we just assumed that Casey and Caylee were, you know, off visiting friends. KING: George, why wouldn't your daughter have called you and say Caylee's gone?

GEORGE ANTHONY: That's really a good question. I -- I know we kept in contact with her -- at least Cindy did -- almost every day or every other day -- a little text message here and there. And everything was fine.

KING: So what do you make of it?

I mean, she's your daughter. You have to have some -- why wouldn't she not -- why would she tell you -- not tell you?

CINDY ANTHONY: I think she's -- I think she was frightened. I think, from what we understand, that, you know, there's been threats to not only Caylee's well-being, but also to our family's well-being.

KING: By?

CINDY ANTHONY: By the people that have Caylee.

KING: You think Caylee was taken. Your daughter obviously knew she was taken.

CINDY ANTHONY: Um-hmm.

KING: For what purpose?

CINDY ANTHONY: You know, I'm still trying to sort that out. You know, the person that originally has her or had her, we've had three or four different sightings with the same description that Casey released -- that they finally released on this person. And the Zenaida that the police department tracked down was one out of thousands that Casey said right from the beginning was not the correct person.

They just now released, within a couple of weeks ago, the actual description of the baby-sitter. And we've had three -- that I'm aware of -- tips that have come in since June of people who described this person to a tee that had Caylee.

KING: What does your daughter think, George?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, our daughter thinks that Caylee needs to be found. And she said...

KING: No, I mean what does she think happened?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Oh. She's already told us that this Zanny, this baby-sitter, is the one that has her.

KING: Who denies it?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, the one that -- like Cindy just said about the one that the sheriff's department, our local sheriff's department, had brought to my daughter's attention, it's not her. It's just not her. KING: Let's go back to July 15th. Cindy, here's part of the 911 call that you made.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 911.

What's your emergency?

CINDY ANTHONY: I called a little bit ago. The deputy sheriff is not here. I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month. I told you my daughter was missing for a month. I just found her today, but I can't find my granddaughter. And she just admitted to me that she's been trying to find her herself. There's something wrong. I found my daughter's car today and it smells like there's been a dead body in the damned car.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

KING: Did you suspect your daughter?

CINDY ANTHONY: No.

KING: Never in all of this?

CINDY ANTHONY: Never.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Never.

CINDY ANTHONY: I have not. From day one, I haven't. You know, Casey has been a loving, very caring mother. And I could see that first night that she was very frightened when the sheriff's department arrived at the house. I mean she was devastated. She was on the floor just beside herself. And she has been very emotional since day one, which hasn't been reported. Her main focus has been the same as ours, it's been looking -- it's been looking for Caylee since the very beginning.

KING: When they arrested her, were you shocked, George?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Oh, absolutely. When they took her into custody the very first time, I was just appalled because I wanted them to -- and I wanted to put an AMBER Alert out for my granddaughter, which they never did. They never contacted the FBI that I wanted them to contact. I mean, I have a little bit of knowledge on some stuff and you would really think that they would want to have some -- someone wanting to have helped them assist trying to find this beautiful three year little old girl. And all I was trying to do was trying to help them and they haven't...

KING: But why do you think they wouldn't?

GEORGE ANTHONY: They had their mind made up.

CINDY ANTHONY: They had their mind made up. You know, they picked out... GEORGE ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE).

CINDY ANTHONY: ...Zenaida Gonzalez. They picked out a 38-year-old woman when Casey told them it was a 24-year-old woman. They picked out someone that had children...

KING: As the nanny, you mean?

CINDY ANTHONY: Right. And she told them she had no children.

You know, they, from the very beginning, decided how this was going to take place. They made judgment on her within two hours of having her in custody. And that's the way it's been. They have not assisted us into looking into finding Caylee.

KING: And they said...

CINDY ANTHONY: And we believe she is alive.

KING: I gather. I want to get to that.

Have they set a trial date?

CINDY ANTHONY: Right now, January 5th.

KING: And no death penalty, right?

CINDY ANTHONY: No death penalty.

KING: They removed -- they had it and then removed it?

CINDY ANTHONY: They removed it. GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes.

KING: We'll be right back with George and Cindy Anthony on this education of LARRY KING LIVE.

The Anthonys have a Web site -- helpfindcaylee.com.

If you have something today -- to say, rather -- let's hear it at our Web site, CNN.com/larryking. And we'll air some of your comments later in the show.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, you don't realize the whole United States is looking for Caylee.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know that, mom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: We're back.

Casey Anthony, by the way, was interviewed by members of the Orange County Sheriff's Office July 16th.

Here's part of that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why didn't you call prior to today?

CASEY ANTHONY: I think part of me was naive enough to think that I could handle this myself, which obviously I couldn't. And I was scared that something would happen to her if I did notify the authorities or got the media involved or my parents, which I know would have done the same thing.

Just the fear of the unknown -- fear of the potential of Caylee getting hurt, of not seeing my daughter again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Why do you think she was arrested and charged, George?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Because they had their -- like Cindy said, they had their mind made up. It was too easy for them to just close the book on this and say well, we're going to charge you with your daughter's disappearance and just be done with it.

KING: Did they ever look at why a mother would kill her daughter?

I mean, did anyone ever question motive?

CINDY ANTHONY: Right. There is no motive and they haven't found a motive. They even said they haven't found a motive. They -- they told us they thought it was an accident and she's scared and she's trying to cover it up.

KING: Killed her by accident and then...

CINDY ANTHONY: Right.

KING: ...buried her or something.

CINDY ANTHONY: Right, they don't feel there's the motive.

KING: Have they looked for the child?

CINDY ANTHONY: We have had five searches done by the sheriff's department, done by Tim Miller with Texas EquuSearch.

KING: I know him.

CINDY ANTHONY: And it's come up with nothing. There's nothing that they have found that, you know, has given them any evidence that Caylee is no longer with us.

KING: Where do you think she is, George?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Oh, Caylee? She's with hopefully a loving family that's taking care of her.

CINDY ANTHONY: We got a tip today.

KING: Today?

CINDY ANTHONY: Today, at 4:00 today. Right now, being investigated by --

KING: What was the tip?

CINDY ANTHONY: In Tennessee.

KING: Someone spotted a girl who looked like her?

CINDY ANTHONY: Yeah, at a grocery store in Tennessee. And my investigators have already spoken with the Tennessee authorities and also the tipster and we're just waiting to see if there's any video in the store.

KING: You realize if they find Caylee, this is a terrible miscarriage of justice.

CINDY ANTHONY: It's been a terrible miscarriage of justice.

KING: However, you must understand the authorities' viewpoint here. Here they are with the dilemma of this woman, a nanny says I didn't do it, I wasn't with her. She waits a month before telling -- I mean, they certainly have grounds for suspicion, don't you think?

CINDY ANTHONY: No, they looked at one Zenaida Gonzalez, one Zenaida. They told us there was only one in our area. There was 11 just in Orlando. They picked out one. Casey told them to check New York or Miami because she had a New York license. She told them that. They pulled up an Ohio license.

Bottom line is Caylee is out there. We have had people from June 20th who have given us sworn statements that they have seen Caylee in Orlando. We have sworn statements from July 2nd. We have people that are out there, can't sleep at night because they have seen her in July. We have people that we met last night that saw her in California just two weeks ago. How do you fight with someone or, you know, say if they're sitting four feet away from this child and they say they're positive that this is Caylee? Because they have seen her picture for the last six months, four feet.

KING: How old would she be now?

CINDY ANTHONY: Three.

KING: Let's listen to a bit more of Casey's July 16th interview with authorities.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP) INVESTIGATOR: Was there anything that you want to change or divert from what you have already told me?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

INVESTIGATOR: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

INVESTIGATOR: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you're worried that if we find that out, that people are going to look at you the wrong way?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

INVESTIGATOR: And you're telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn't returned her?

CASEY ANTHONY: She's the last person that I've seen with my daughter.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

KING: Let's take a call. Winston-Salem, North Carolina, for George and Cindy Anthony. Hello.

CALLER: Hello, George and Cindy. I am so sorry for the trouble that your family has been going through. I just wanted to ask you, Cindy. When you first called police, you said something like it smelled like there was a dead body in the trunk of your daughter's car. And more recently you said that you believe that it was maybe old pizza. And I was just calling wondering why you changed your mind on that.

CINDY ANTHONY: I changed my mind on that -- I never changed my mind on that. What I stated was the car smelled, OK. I was told by my husband and also by the gentleman at the tow yard that there was a bag of food that contained pizza and maggots in the car. I went down and I spoke myself with the manager of the tow company, and he told us that that was the cause of the smell in the car. I don't know if anybody that has ever smelled decay of food that's been in a car trunk for 19 days in Florida heat. I have opened my refrigerator and made the comment, something died in here.

KING: We'll take a break and come back. The Orange County sheriff's department released this statement tonight for us. "From the beginning, our desire was to find Caylee Marie Anthony alive and well. Evidence unfortunately revealed that we are looking for a deceased child. The sheriff's office got involved because Cindy Anthony called us about her missing granddaughter. The resulting investigation led to a grand jury indictment of Casey Anthony for murder in the first degree. Our hearts go out to the Anthonys for the extremely difficult time they're living through."

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: A beautiful little girl. Following Casey's arrest in July on child neglect and other charges, George and Cindy visited her in jail. Here is some of the surveillance video from that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I don't care what I have to do. When I told them I would lie, I would steal, I would do whatever by any means to get her back. That's exactly how I feel, it's the truth.

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, we have to find her before her third birthday. That's coming up fast.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: There were reports, photo shots, I think, of your daughter partying a lot and out having a good time during all this, while her daughter is missing. Explain that.

CINDY ANTHONY: There was one photo out of all of the photos that has been shown of her partying that was after June 16th, one. And what we have learned that that is a staged photo. That those are photos that they used to entice other people to come into that club. She would have gotten paid for that photo. So, in fact, she was working. And we have proof of that.

KING: Where George, is Caylee's father?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Caylee's father lived somewhere in the Carolinas I believed at one point. He's deceased. He passed away right around her second birthday.

KING: Oh, so she was still around when he died.

CINDY ANTHONY: Right, he was never part of her life.

KING: Sioux Falls, South Dakota, hello.

CALLER: Thank you, Larry. My question is for George. George, removing yourself from your family, I know you are a professional in the department. What was your professional opinion of the smell in that trunk?

GEORGE ANTHONY: My professional opinion is I never really realized how long it would take garbage to smell for 19 days or 18 days inside of a car in Florida, to be honest with you.

KING: What do you do, George?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Right now, I'm in the security field. Been in law enforcement for years, I sort of stayed in the security field off and on all the years.

KING: Were you in law enforcement in Orlando?

GEORGE ANTHONY: No, never was in Orlando, now. I was in law enforcement 20-some odd years ago.

KING: So you would understand law enforcement psyche?

GEORGE ANTHONY: To a point, yes, possibly, yes. But then again, I know what I feel inside, that that's like Cindy says. Inside that bag was garbage. It really was. It was pizza. I mean, I've seen it. I know what was in there.

KING: And there's no way you can fathom, Cindy, your daughter harming your granddaughter?

CINDY ANTHONY: No, there's nobody that has come forward that has ever seen or said anything other than that Caylee (sic) was an excellent mother. So there's -- Casey has done nothing to her daughter. There's no evidence that shows that, and I can with 100 percent of my being say that I believe that Casey had nothing to do with Caylee's disappearance.

KING: We have a little more to show you from inside the jailhouse, watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: What's your gut telling you right now?

CASEY ANTHONY: That she's OK.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK. And your gut tells you she's close or she's hiding?

CASEY ANTHONY: She's not far. I know in my heart she's not far. I can feel it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Oh, boy. This is -- are you optimistic that you're going to find Caylee? I mean, how do you feel about it? It's been a long time.

CINDY ANTHONY: Well, over the last several weeks we have gotten probably our best sightings. We had one in the middle of November, right in Orlando. Two women, very credible, were within 10 feet of her, watched her for 20 minutes, took photographs of her. This last couple that we met last night saw her a week after that point, were within four feet of her.

KING: So she's somewhere, you think?

CINDY ANTHONY: Absolutely.

KING: We'll see what you're saying on the blogs tonight in 60 seconds. Stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back. Let's hear what you're talking about tonight. Here's our own David Theall with the blog report. David?

DAVID THEALL, LARRY KING LIVE PRODUCER: Larry, as you know, in advance of their appearance tonight, George and Cindy provided us with a guest commentary that we posted on your blog. This is one of those stories that garners a lot of comments. The vast majority of them are critical of George, Cindy, and their daughter Casey. Not all of them, however.

Nikki belongs in that camp. Nikki says, "I don't understand how anybody can attack George and Cindy. Nobody knows for sure how they would react if put in this situation." Crystal says, "I have become addicted to this story and I cannot help but lean to the facts that show most likely this child is no longer in the flesh."

As I said, the vast majority of people on your blog right now, Larry, are critical of the Anthonys. Barbara belongs in that camp. She says, "Your daughter holds the truth no matter how bad it will be to hear."

And Lisa says this, "The enabling of Casey needs to end now."

This conversation is going to continue on your blog. You can read the exclusive guest commentary from the Anthonys in which they battle this public perception of their family and of this case. It's at CNN.com/LarryKing. Look for the live blog link. Click it, come on in.

KING: Thank you, David. And when we come back with our remaining moments with George and Cindy, we'll find out why they think most people are against them, if that's true. More of your calls too, after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Anderson Cooper will host "A.C. 360" at the top of the hour. What's up, Anderson?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Larry, tonight on the program, the governor heads back to work today, Governor Blagojevich as calls mount for his resignation. Fifty Democratic senators and an aide to President-elect Obama want him to step down. Will he stay in office? And we'll show you a peek into the governor's private life. His wife standing by her man. And while there's no evidence she has committed any crimes or allegations of that, many are calling her a modern day Lady Macbeth with a mouth like a trucker. Although maybe that's unfair to truckers.

And we're following the breaks news on the auto bailout. The House passes the $14 billion bailout, but a growing revolt among Republican senators could kill the bill. We'll have all the breaking news live from Capitol Hill. Those stories and an answer to the question, will Barack Obama use his middle name Hussein when he's sworn in? The president-elect has decided. We'll tell you his answer tonight on "360." Larry?

KING: That's "A.C." Thanks, Anderson. "A.C. 360," 10 Eastern, 7 Pacific. Anderson will be with us in a couple of minutes to preview tomorrow night's show. Why do you think so many people get angry at you?

CINDY ANTHONY: Because they only hear one side of the story. They only see what is put out there by the Nancy Graces of the world and the Leonard Padillas of the world. They don't look at themselves and look at their own families and figure out what they would do if one of their children was missing.

You know, there's a very -- there's a lot of people that are in our shoes. And there's a lot of people that will do one of several things. They'll either go into a recluse and they'll just withdraw. You could do that. Or you could get up every morning and you could fight for the people that you love.

And we're not going to -- I'm not going to sit back and worry about what people think about us, because my focus is on Caylee. And anybody that wants to criticize me for that, that's their problem.

KING: Has Nancy Grace convicted your daughter?

CINDY ANTHONY: Absolutely. Nancy Grace is the reason there are people out there -- but I tell you what, there's just as many people that watch Nancy Grace that only watch her because they don't have local media like we do in Orlando, keeping up with Caylee. That's their only outlet. They don't believe in the things she's doing. In fact, it's fact they tell us when this is all done, when Caylee is home, they're never going to watch her again.

KING: Thank you both very much. And their Web site, if you want to keep in touch is helpfindcaylee.com. Helpfindcaylee.com.

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« Reply #55 on: December 12, 2008, 08:15:22 AM »

NANCY GRACE

Small Child`s Remains Found Near Anthony Home

Aired December 11, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, "ISSUES": Absolutely stunning information, and Nancy will have all the latest details. NANCY GRACE starts right now.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. As we go to air, skeletal remains believed to be little Caylee discovered in a heavily-wooded area just 15 houses away from the Anthony home. A utility meter reader stumbles on a discarded garbage bag. When he kicks it, a human skull literally rolls out, the bag believed to contain a child`s full skeletal remains. In a stunning twist, it`s the same area investigators, searchers, volunteers previously combed, but at that time, everything was totally under water after flooding from Hurricane Faye.

Now, at this hour, the remains en route to Quantico`s FBI lab. And in the last hours, investigators confirm they want back inside the Anthony home and they are requesting another search warrant, even blocking off the Anthony home as we go to air. Grandparents George and Cindy jet back from the other side of the country, California, where they were following up on a potential Caylee sighting. They are not allowed by police in their own home tonight. Why?

And in a last-minute emergency motion by the defense for their own forensic experts to be present for all testing and autopsy on the remains, the January 5 trial date for the tot mom comes to a screeching halt. Sources say the defense team preparing a motion to change venue, get out of town.

Tonight, is this child`s skeleton -- are these discarded remains just yards from the Anthony home all that`s left of little Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news out of Orange County, Florida. In Orlando, there may be a break, the break in the case of the missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Officials confirm the remains of a young child have been found. This is less than half a mile from Caylee Anthony`s grandparents` home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Orange County sheriff`s office says a meter reader found a bag this morning, and when the worker picked it up, a skull reportedly fell out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve exhumed the remains, and that has been transported to the medical examiner`s office.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`ve also learned that authorities are seeking a search warrant for the Anthony home, where Caylee lived with her mother.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, that house is secured for a possibility of being more of a crime scene later.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: But do you think after this long, she`d still be local?

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: There`s a possibility.

CINDY ANTHONY: What`s your gut telling you right now?

(CROSSTALK)

CASEY ANTHONY: ... that she`s OK.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK. And your gut tells you that she`s close or some - - she`s -- she`s hiding?

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s not far. I know in my heart she`s not far. I can feel it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, skeletal remains believed to be that of little Caylee discovered in a heavily wooded area just yards from the Anthony home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news and late developments in the case of the missing toddler, Caylee Anthony. A child`s remains have been found not very far from the grandparent`s house.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, that`s the spot. The grandparents live 20 houses down here. That woods backs up to their house.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The bottom line is real simple, folks. We`ve recovered this human skull. Appears to be that of a small child. And now we have to -- the investigation continues.

CINDY ANTHONY: Everybody is looking for her. Are we going to be able to find her, do you think?

CASEY ANTHONY: I hope we can, Mom.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve been searching for this little girl for months. I mean, everybody is listening. America`s listening and wanting this little girl to be found. And I bet my bottom dollar that`s her they found today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The medical examiner`s office has been in contact with the FBI, and they`re going back to take a look at some of the remains as we speak.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have secured the Anthony house pending more investigations. The detectives will be working there tonight.

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, our whole life`s turned upside-down looking for this little girl.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know. Trust me, if I could be out there with you, I would be in a heartbeat, trying to help take the strain off of you, trying to find her. That`s all I want to do.

CINDY ANTHONY: We`re going to see her little face again.

CASEY ANTHONY: I pray to God every day that we do.

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey...

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams, news director at WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, bring us up to date.

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: I`ll tell you, Nancy, what an unbelievable story, an unbelievable turn of developments today. A utility worker, who wanted to go into a wooded area just basically to relief himself, found himself a plastic bag only three tenths of a mile from the Anthony household that we`re located at tonight. He kicked this plastic bag and a skull rolled out. He called 911, and the rest is history.

Cops converged on the scene. The crime scene unit came in. The command post came in. And right, now they don`t know if the remains of a young child is that of Caylee Anthony. They`re just saying it`s a young child. The body`s at the medical examiner`s office right now. It will go to Quantico, Virginia, to the FBI lab, where it will be given priority, a rush priority, as they call it.

Nancy, if you recall, in a release of a conversation from videotapes from the jail, at one time, Caylee -- or Casey said, I know she`s close by and she`s in a better place. Three tenths of a mile away -- is that what we`re talking about tonight, Nancy?

GRACE: Just 15 homes away from the Anthony home. Apparently, it`s just there at Hidden Oaks Elementary School, where not only tot mom Casey Anthony but her brother, Lee, both went to elementary school. This is between the Anthony home and the elementary school. It`s within walking distance, about a block from the Anthony home.

Out to Natisha Lance. She is there at the location where the remains were discovered. Natisha, it is my understanding that this is like a garbage bag, that it is opaque, that the meter reader could not see what was in the bag until he kicked it?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s correct, Nancy. It is a garbage bag. I was hearing earlier reports that it was wrapped in duct tape, as well, and other reports that were saying that this bag was sealed. But obviously, if a head rolled out, that report might not be correct.

However this, meter reader immediately called for police. Police came to the scene. Forensics investigators, FBI, as well, were on the scene. They have taped off this area. There are deputies who will be here around the clock tonight to continue searching this area tomorrow, as well as the Anthony home.

GRACE: Joining me right now, also there at the location where the remains were discovered, is Tim Miller. He is the director of Texas Equusearch. He has searched exhaustively for little Caylee. He says the sources -- his sources say this is little Caylee.

Tim, your workers, volunteers, everybody has been in and around this area, but isn`t it true that at the time the search was going down, Hurricane Faye had come through and there was extensive flooding?

TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Nancy, if you recall -- and I got a lot of criticism for calling the search off the first time, but we actually lost a four-wheeler back in this same exact area that one of the volunteers was on the four-wheeler and water went totally over it. And the next day is when I called the search off, and it`s the best choice I ever made because if you recall back then, I said, You know what? If this little girl is under the water and a horse steps on her or a four-wheeler goes over or even a person steps on her just thinking it`s some type of debris underneath the water, then we`ve jeopardized any future search efforts.

And then when we came back the second time, this water where she was found -- and I actually went right back to the scene with investigators a couple of hours ago. But this water was still high when we came back the second time. And a neighbor actually said it was about a week-and-a-half ago or two weeks at the most when the water receded enough that you could see anything there.

So this is an area that we tried to search. Weather conditions just would not allow it. And I will never, ever regret calling the search off at that time because we could have done far more damage than good if we had...

GRACE: Tim, I remember that very night -- I remember talking to you about that night on the show, asking you why you pulled out. And you made it very clear that you were so afraid that in all the water -- it was feet deep -- that you were afraid if Caylee`s remains were there, they would be ruined or scattered and would never be found. And boy, were you right, Tim Miller. You never made a better call in your life.

MILLER: Thank you.

GRACE: I want to go back to Natisha Lance, our producer who has been on the scene from the get-go. She`s there with Tim Miller at the location where the remains were found just hours ago, believed to be those of little Caylee. I want you to describe the location. How is it, Natisha Lance, that this is 15 homes away from the Anthony home, but yet it`s heavily wooded? When I see their home, it looks like a suburban neighborhood.

LANCE: Absolutely. Well, this is an area that is behind the subdivision a little ways. Now, it`s a densely wooded area. They say that it`s pretty thick back there. But they also say that these remains were about 25 feet off of the curb. So they were a ways back, so that if anyone was passing by, they wouldn`t see it at a first glance.

Now, they are also saying -- this area, once again, when Tim Miller went back to search, it was closed off because they were planning to do some developing back there for some newer homes. But it is an area that is directly behind the Anthonys` neighborhood, like you said, not far from the home, about 15 houses down.

GRACE: To Kathi Belich with CNN affiliate WFTV. She is there at the Anthony home, joining us. Kathi, what more do we know, if anything, about the bag itself? Does it look as if it had been through the flooding? Was it weather-beaten? What do we know about it? And is it true that trash bags were taken during the initial search out of the Anthony home?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: I don`t know about trash bags being taken from the home. I never saw that on the search warrant list. But I do -- I can tell you that investigators feel very good about the evidence they have found in that bag, a child`s skull, bones. And I am told there`s something else in that bag, possibly clothing. But they feel very, very, very encouraged by this discovery today.

I don`t know whether the bag was weather-beaten, but apparently, it was under water for several months. And it`s plastic, and plastic doesn`t go away, as we know. So what I can tell you so far about that.

GRACE: Well, you know, to Mike Brooks, that`s highly probative, is the bag looks as if it has been through the Hurricane Faye, it was there before the waters. That can also date when it was placed there. And today, a spokesperson actually said there were no clothes in the bag with the skeleton. But something about what they found today, Mike Brooks, make police want another search warrant to go back in the home.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Absolutely, Nancy. There`s something there in that bag that they can match (ph) and say, Hey, we want to go back and get something else from that house to maybe make a comparison. But we`ll know when all the evidence comes back from the FBI lab in Quantico, and it could be this weekend or maybe Monday.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A utility worker makes a gruesome discovery in central Florida this morning, a bag with the skeletal remains of a child found less than a quarter of a mile from Caylee Anthony`s home. The little girl hasn`t been seen since June, and her mom, Casey, is charged with her murder.

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: We want Caylee back (INAUDIBLE)

CASEY ANTHONY: I know. All I want is to see Caylee.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes. Do you know -- do you know what today`s date is?

CASEY ANTHONY: I believe a week until her birthday, I know.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes, we have six days.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know that.

GEORGE ANTHONY: So you know, I just -- I want to have that big party for her. We were first having just a little one, but we want to have a big one, you know?

CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, I want to be home so we can do that, Dad.

(INAUDIBLE) thumb, Mum`s index finger, you`re the middle finger, which was funny because you`re the big guy. I`m the ring finger. Caylee`s the pinky finger. And you know, there`s two fingers that are missing right now, but our hand will be complete, just as our family will be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers." Dr. Marshall, I`m sure you`re familiar with all the late- breaking developments regarding the discovery of those remains just a stone`s throw from the Anthony home.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Yes.

GRACE: If this is little Caylee, if the tot mom knows about the remains, responsible for the remains, this means that all we have been listening to all this time of her jailhouse recordings, she`s been taking them on the ride of a lifetime.

MARSHALL: Well, and she`s created this huge tale, this huge delusion, and Cindy and George have stepped into the delusion and become delusional with her. And now if this is little Caylee`s remains, I`m afraid George and Cindy may delude themselves again, saying, Well, Zanny did it, that the nanny took her and now she killed her.

But the other thing, Nancy, she put her in a garbage bag. She treated her like she was trash. What do you put in a garbage bag? Something that has absolutely no value to you. This little girl`s life has been trashed, her future, her opportunities, and all the relationships she had with her family and with the people around them. It has all been trashed.

GRACE: Eleanor, thinking about how, forensically, they can tie this all together, do you recall what was found in the tot mom`s trunk?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Remember, Nancy, it was a garbage bag with an old pizza box and some other items that were supposedly decomposing, where we really had the odor of body decomposition.

GRACE: And Mike Brooks, garbage bag in the drunk where the smell of decomposition was prevalent, also now a garbage bag with these remains. You want to guess that they`re from the same garbage bag lot, from the same store, from the same package?

BROOKS: There`s a good possibility, Nancy. And one of the other things they`ll do, they`ll try to match up the perforations. When you pull a garbage bag out of the box and you rip it apart, you see the little perforations. They`ll try to match that. But they`re also talking about tape. That could also yield some extremely valuable evidence, possibly some fingerprint evidence, even though, Nancy, it was still under water. If that tape was on the plastic, they can take it back to the FBI lab and be able to separate that to see if there was any kind of fingerprint evidence that was left on the adhesive side of that tape.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Back to Kathi Belich with WFTV. She`s standing by at the Anthony home. Why aren`t the Anthonys allowed back in their home tonight, Kathi?

BELICH: I don`t know that they`re not allowed here. I don`t think the deputies wanted anyone else in that home. From what I heard earlier, the Anthonys did not want to come back here. They got to the airport, and deputies took them elsewhere. And we are hearing that there could be a search warrant served on the house some time, possibly soon. We`re not sure.

GRACE: OK, you know, Natisha Lance...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Natisha Lance, our sources are telling us police had the Anthonys not go to their home tonight. Why?

LANCE: That`s correct. Because the home could possibly potentially become a part of the crime scene investigation. As you stated before, Nancy, apparently, there was something that was found where these remains were found that could possibly be connected back to the Anthony home. So they are in the process of trying to obtain that search warrant to be able to search the Anthony home. The home -- from what I`ve been told from Orange County sheriff`s office, is that the home is cordoned off and nobody is allowed back into that home right now.

GRACE: To Dr. Michael Bell, Palm Beach County chief medical examiner. Dr. Bell, with a child age 2, 3, can you look at the remains and determine if it`s a boy or girl?

DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH COUNTY CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: I think that`s going to be very difficult. When they`re that young, the skeletons look very much alike. So I tend to doubt it.

GRACE: Then how do you make the differentiation?

BELL: Well, you might look at the pelvis. You might look at the -- if there`s any soft tissue, that might suggest...

GRACE: Well, do you really believe there`s going to be soft tissue six months later?

BELL: There might be.

GRACE: Really?

BELL: Yes. If it`s -- if the body has been in a bag and under water and away from any animals or maggots, there might still be a good deal of soft tissue.

GRACE: If there is any soft tissue, would you be able to determine the presence of chloroform?

BELL: You might, yes.

GRACE: How?

BELL: Through use of toxicology.

GRACE: Now, you just told me you cannot look at the body, the skeletal remains, and tell if it`s a boy or girl at this young age. But then you told me you can look at the pelvis. So which one is it, can you look at it and tell or not?

BELL: You might or you might not.

GRACE: Gotcha. OK. So it just depends, really.

Out to the lines. Tammy in Ohio. Hi, Tammy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I was wondering, if they find enough evidence to put the death sentence back on the table, could she go and say, What if we don`t have a trial and I`ll just plead guilty, and can you take off the death sentence and I`ll just serve life?

GRACE: She can only do that if the state agrees to do that.

Let`s unleash the lawyers. Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor who has handled death penalty cases, Renee Rockwell, veteran defense attorney, Peter Odom, also a veteran defense attorney out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. You know, Eleanor, right up until the trial commences, the state can change its mind. They originally said they were taking the DP off the table. Now that can change.

DIXON: Exactly, especially because you have an aggravating circumstance. The child is under 10 years of age, so the state now, with the discovery of this body, could request the death penalty.

GRACE: But Peter, the defense -- the defendant can`t just go up to the microphone in court and say, Oh, I plead guilty. Gotcha. You can`t take the death penalty now. That can`t be done.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. No, that can`t happen. The prosecution will have a chance to go back and seek the death penalty, if they want to. And the prosecution`s case just got a lot stronger.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this point, it`s very early in this discovery to provide any additional information that can compromise our case. We want to proceed carefully, methodically, and allow our investigators and our forensics teams to provide the information to our investigators that is necessary to proceed with this investigation.

QUESTION: Do you know how long the DNA testing will take so that you can actually confirm whether...

(CROSSTALK)

QUESTION: ... excuse me -- whether you can confirm whether it`s Caylee?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... forensics units for the FBI lab to continue to do their follow-up work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Remains found just about 15 homes away from the Anthony home believed to be those of little Caylee.

Leonard Padilla, weigh in.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: It`s -- it`s -- it`s good that there`s going to be some finality, I think, and I`m...

GRACE: Well, this is what you`ve said all along was going happen.

PADILLA: I said to -- yes, but I also know that you`re the one that kept it at the forefront of America to where when that man, call of nature made him go into the bushes there, he had in his mind that there was a bag there, and he reached down and picked it up. How many people don`t reach down and pick up a bag? And it`s -- you know, God put this whole thing together right at the last minute there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Let`s go straight to the scene of the Anthony home. You`re seeing right now police have converged the Anthony home and they have surrounded it with crime scene tape.

WILLIAMS: Nancy, this is an unbelievable sight that we`re looking at right now. Just moments ago sheriff`s department crime scene investigators rolled up in their minivans and immediately got out of the truck -- their truck and started putting around crime scene tape around the entire Anthony house, at least the front.

They`re asking people to move. This is still a busy street. All the camera people from local and national television stations, but this is breaking live on your show right now. Several sheriff`s deputies are here, probably a dozen or so putting up that crime scene tape, and this is now an official crime scene which we all thought was going happen sooner rather than later and this has come true, Nancy.

GRACE: What do you mean, Mark Williams? This is a crime scene. Are you suggesting that this is where little Caylee was killed?

WILLIAMS: I`m not suggesting anything. This is just part of the ongoing investigation. Earlier today we had an individual which was reportedly Lee Anthony`s girlfriend come into the house.

She was hustled out of there real quick and then John Allen, the lead investigator, came over and talked to her. She finally left, but this -- they set up shop here right after 10:00 this morning saying that it`s a potential crime scene. Now it is a crime scene.

Who knows? Remember the cadaver dogs hit back here twice in the backyard plus in Caylee`s car and -- so I think they`re going to go over this house now with a fine-toothed comb, Nancy.

GRACE: But to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice, consultant on the Anthony defense team, is it too late to get forensic evidence?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: I don`t think so, Nancy. I think what they`re looking for are perhaps a package of garbage bags, black plastic garbage bags and perhaps duct tape so that they can make comparisons with the evidence that they just identified.

Of course, we`re getting ahead of ourselves. The identification of the skeletal remains is really step one, but this is absolutely required if they`re going make any kind of comparison of evidence.

GRACE: To our attorneys, and we`re taking your calls live. To Renee Rockwell, is this the moment that the tot mom better talk if she wants to save her own skin?

ROCKWELL: Not without some kind of deal, Nancy, because what has just been eliminated is that one juror that might have held out and said I`m not going to convict this gal because we don`t even know if the baby`s dead.

That has been removed from the equation. The dynamics have changed and the work is just about to start now. Now it`s time for her attorneys to man up.

GRACE: But, you know, let`s go to the other lawyers.

Eleanor Dixon, she doesn`t even have a bargaining chip anymore. If this is little Caylee which sources within the FBI say it is, she has nothing to bargain with anymore. I mean she`s -- there`s no location of the body to reveal. What does she have to give the state if they need anymore?

DIXON: She has absolutely nothing, Nancy. It`s the icing on the cake if this is little Caylee. And if I were the prosecution I`d go full steam ahead.

GRACE: Peter?

PETER SCHAFFER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right now the finding of the body has answered only one of the many questions that surround this and right now Casey.

GRACE: Oh, really? What question do you have left?

SCHAFFER: The cause of death, manner of death.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHAFFER: Where the crime occurred, none of that is known yet. Now that might be revealed, but it`s not known yet.

GRACE: The state doesn`t need to prove that.

SCHAFFER: But, Nancy, jurors are going to have those questions and until the state can sew that up with hard evidence it`s still many questions remain.

GRACE: Renee?

ROCKWELL: And also whodunit. This does not mean that Caylee committed this -- I`m sorry, Casey committed the crime, Nancy.

GRACE: OK, Renee.

ROCKWELL: It doesn`t mean.

GRACE: That second verse is the same as the first one. Do you have a new anthem, please let me know.

Out to the line, Lisa in Pennsylvania, hi, Lisa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I was just wondering if authorities were looking into the possibility of whether the bag was placed or buried somewhere else and washed to this location by Hurricane Fay and that`s why EquuSearch didn`t see it.

GRACE: What do you make of that, Mike Brooks?

BROOKS: There is a possibility if it was in a shallow grave that this water may have popped it to the surface. Now one of the things they will do, remember there was a shovel in this equation that they did seize from the home that she had borrowed from a neighbor.

Let`s say, got it from a neighbor. Now they would try to take -- soil comparisons from that shovel to the soil that`s there at the scene. Now it would be a lot easier to work that crime scene if the ground was dry, but they can still work it wet. They can -- they`re going go back there tomorrow, and if I were them I would be digging a little bit deeper just in case that was -- she was in a shallow grave.

Also that whole area, surround that whole wooded area tomorrow will be searched thoroughly to see if there`s any other evidence that may be of value.

GRACE: To Tim Miller, the director of Texas EquuSearch who has searched exhaustively for little Caylee, you know one of the first things the defense is going say is when it finally goes on trial, Texas EquuSearch searched this area, volunteer search police, search -- they didn`t see the bag, now the bag is suddenly here six months later. It was obviously put there while the tot mom was in jail.

MILLER: You know what? The bag was not put there later, Nancy. I was actually out there at that scene today. It wasn`t buried. It didn`t float up. You can see where the bag was actually laying on the ground. The weeds are very thick there so it didn`t float. It would have got caught up in something.

Whoever put that bag there pulled up alongside the road, threw the bag out there in that little weeded area. So there was no digging, there was no nothing. You can actually see in the grassy area where someone had sat there for a long period of time. So it was set there. It wasn`t buried. Trust me.

GRACE: So you can actually tell, and this is possible, everyone. You can tell if an object has been sitting on the grass for a long period of time. There`s not any grass under it, things have gotten on top of it and around it.

How could you tell, Tim, from looking at it that it had been there for a while?

MILLER: Well, you can tell that there was an indentation in the ground where something that -- you know that had a little bit of weight to it had laid there, kind of like if you would have put a log or something some place and six months later picked the log up, how there`s just a small indentation and the grass is dead underneath it.

And as wet as it`s been since the -- tropical storm came in, you know, it`s pretty obvious that it`s something that has been sitting there the entire time and it`s something that truly, Nancy, was not findable, had been under water and according to the neighbor it was a week and a half ago when the water receded enough to be able to see anything back there.

So you know, if it wouldn`t have been for that tropical storm, believe me, Caylee`s little remains would have been found a long, long time ago, but you know the good news is finally and finally.

GRACE: Some answers.

MILLER: . after this long period of time, she can come home.

GRACE: Have you spoken to the Anthonys?

MILLER: We can take her home.

GRACE: Have you spoken to the Anthonys?

MILLER: I haven`t spoken to them. I haven`t spoken to them yet. I`m flying to Birmingham tomorrow, but I do want to say at least hi to George and Cindy and hug their neck and just let them know that -- you know how bad we feel for them.

GRACE: Tim, did you see the bag? You`ve been there on the scene all day.

MILLER: No, I actually got out here after the bag was removed and I got such a close relationship with law enforcement that they took us back there and we sat down and talked. And you know it`s.

GRACE: Was it an opaque bag? Was it black? A black or white garbage bag?

MILLER: From what I understand it`s a black garbage bag and there was some duct tape around the bag, and -- but no, personally, I did not see the bag.

GRACE: Tim.

MILLER: . but I could see where the bag was laying.

GRACE: Yes. We have heard reports that there was duct tape actually on the remains. Do you know if there was duct tape on the skull?

MILLER: I`m hearing that report, but I didn`t ask law enforcement anything, but I certainly anticipate in the search warrant they`re going to be searching for probably duct tape to see if it matches the duct tape that was found there on the scene.

GRACE: Out to the lawyers. Eleanor Dixon, if duct tape is on the skull, bye-bye manslaughter because that means the child was taped around the face. That is premeditated.

DIXON: Yes, you`re exactly right, Nancy, and that certainly shows an abandoned and malignant heart which you want for murder one.

GRACE: What about it, Renee?

ROCKWELL: Well, Nancy, why wouldn`t the duct tape have been placed in the child after she was dead. This does not mean at this point.

GRACE: It doesn`t even make any sense.

ROCKWELL: I mean you can still duct -- duct tape a body.

GRACE: Why?

ROCKWELL: Who knows she might.

GRACE: Why?

ROCKWELL: Whoever.

GRACE: No, no. Next time you say something, please, please, let it make sense.

ROCKWELL: OK.

GRACE: It doesn`t make sense to put duct tape on a dead body.

ROCKWELL: Unless you might be duct taping it to a heavy brick or something to perhaps.

GRACE: But there`s not a heavy brick.

ROCKWELL: A heavy piece of object or whatever.

GRACE: A garbage bag?

ROCKWELL: We don`t know.

GRACE: OK.

ROCKWELL: . if they were trying to maybe -- whoever was disposing of the body make the body sink.

GRACE: Sink in what? It was grass.

ROCKWELL: It could have been partial low under water at some point, Nancy.

GRACE: OK.

ROCKWELL: And it moved with the water.

GRACE: OK. OK. I can go with that.

To Bonnie in Texas, hi, Bonnie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. The question I have, I`m really thinking that Cindy has been emotionally blackmailed by Casey because that night that she choked her, they had that real bad fight, that was the longest she had spent away from her mother with that little baby, that whole month after that happened.

And I`m thinking now is the time, even though I feel so sorry for Cindy, now is the time for her to stop enabling Casey and go ahead and let her know she`s got to tell the truth.

GRACE: To Dr. Bethany Marshall, do you think that`s even possible?

MARSHALL: It may not be possible, but I think Bonnie is right, when something bad happens to another person we blame ourselves, and Cindy might be blaming herself because of the fight that ensued in her house that night and that all of this happened afterwards.

Instead of blaming herself she needs to look to her own daughter Casey and really compel her to tell the truth, but I don`t know if that`s really possible.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This morning at approximately 9:30 a.m. we had a call to the sheriff`s office regarding a discovery that was made by an Orange County meter employee who had gone into the woods.

A bag was found there and skeletal remains were recovered or found at the scene. We currently have our investigators on scene evaluating the situation. Forensics unit as well has responded. The FBI is also on scene as we continue to process the scene, the FBI as well and their lab will provide assistance in the coming days.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: I realize that the circumstances as they are would lead most people to believe that these are Caylee`s remains, but I must -- I must stress it`s not -- people have been wrong before.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s Jose Baez in the last moments responding to the discovery of remains that are believed to be those of little Caylee. Just a stone`s throw from the Anthony home right near the elementary school, Hidden Oaks Elementary, where tot mom Casey Anthony and brother Lee Anthony went to school.

He also revealed that the tot mom had to take a sedative when she learned the remains were discovered.

Mike Brooks, I bet she did.

BROOKS: I bet she did, Nancy, and you know, with this evidence they have. And you know, speaking of Mr. Baez. You know he`s filed an emergency motion to, quote, "preserve and inspect evidence and participate in forensic testing."

And then part of that he says, if the body is determined to be of that Caylee Marie Anthony then the defense would request that their own experts be permitted to be present during any forensic testing done including, but not limited to DNA or autopsy.

Well, let me just tell you. They probably already started the autopsy. They`re going to have a hearing tomorrow at 11:30 in court. But I can tell you, Nancy, when it comes to the FBI lab, it is highly unlikely that the FBI will allow any outside forensics -- Mr. Kobilinsky or whomever to go into that lab.

They will allow them to review the protocols of the FBI lab and the initial reports, but I was talking to one of my sources today at the FBI lab and they said it is highly unlikely that they`ll allow anyone from the defense team into the lab to watch the DNA testing.

GRACE: Kobi, is that true?

KOBILINSKY: I think that is true. I don`t know whether they would be forced to open up the lab under court order, but I -- I just don`t know. It`s a legal question.

GRACE: Doubtful. Doubtful.

OK. Let`s go back to the scene. Mark Williams is standing by with WNDB Newstalk 1150 along our producer, Natisha Lance, there in Orlando.

Mark Williams, you`re at the home. Tell me what`s happening?

WILLIAMS: Well, in the past couple of minutes since I`ve talked to you, more than a -- dozen sheriff`s deputies from the Orange County Sheriff`s Office has -- have arrived on the scene and various types of vehicles from SUVs to regular squad cars to unmarked cars.

They immediately came out. They put crime scene tape up around the Anthony house, the front of it, at least. This is now a crime scene. They want to get that -- those search warrants so they can get in there and give this house a second look.

There is more than likely some evidence that they can find that would tie the -- plastic bag to Casey Anthony.

GRACE: Everybody, you are seeing live feed outside the tot mom`s parents` home. The Anthonys` home. The Anthonys have been barred from coming into their home tonight. They are just touching down, a couple of hours ago, from California.

As you all know, they were in California following up on a lead that little Caylee had been sighted at a -- restaurant named Javier`s. They were told these remains have been found and they jetted back immediately.

According to our sources, they were wearing their "Find Caylee" t- shirts on the plane and appeared to be very calm. Now that may not make any sense to a lot of people, but to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, they may very well -- refuse to believe this is actually little Caylee.

MARSHALL: Well, as they said earlier, they`ve developed this almost delusional belief that the little girl is alive or that somebody took her, so if the little girl -- if these are her remains they may tell themselves that Zanny did it. So in that case Casey is still exonerated.

But you know, Nancy, one in four violent crimes occur near -- in or near the victim`s home and when a child is a victim of homicide, they`re often stashed within three blocks of the family home. So this totally fits the stats of what happens with a child`s homicide.

GRACE: Well, you know, I want to go back to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter. You and Brooks have seen a lot of cases, not on the legal end, but on the investigative and bounty hunting end.

Long story short, take a look at Scott Peterson. He was a fisherman, he was a golfer. Where did he hide the body? At the marina. It washed up on the shore.

Tot mom Casey Anthony, this is her stomping grounds. This is her home. Where are you going to hide the body? Out in the woods behind the house.

PADILLA: As the doctor said, the statistics that have been compiled by the FBI through the years proved -- she hit the nail on the head. I mean, that street where the body was found is -- you go straight down from the house, you make a right, there`s a little dead end there and 25 foot.

And it also fits everything else that was said that she wasn`t going dig a hole. She wasn`t going to go deep into the forest and it`s a situation where she basically followed her own precepts on what to do. She told everybody it was close to the house. Caylee`s close. Close by.

GRACE: She did keep saying that behind bars.

PADILLA: Kept saying that.

GRACE: We have that sound, we`re about do play it for you.

Mike Brooks, I mean, what`s the likelihood that somebody would get Caylee, kill Caylee and then take her all of the way back home to suburban neighborhood to dump the body right near the Anthony home. It doesn`t make sense.

BROOKS: Nancy, it doesn`t make sense at all. Then Dr. Bethany, as was you`re saying, I`ve talked with experts to talk about the same thing when they have a case like this, statistics prove that you stay in an area that and usually it`s right off of the path and that`s what we have here.

Highly unlikely that somebody brought it in there -- from outside and dumped it right near the house.

GRACE: Take a listen to tot mom behind bars.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: Do you think Caylee is OK right now?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: My gut feelings? As Mom asked me yesterday, and they asked me last night, the psychologist asked me this morning, that I met with through the court. In my gut, she`s still OK. And it still fells like she`s, she`s close to home.

L. ANTHONY: OK.

C. ANTHONY: So I mean, that`s still my, my best feeling at the moment. Again, if that changes, I mean obviously I`m going to reach out and say something immediately, but I know mom will understand this better than anyone, that there is that type of bond that you have with your kid.

L. ANTHONY: Right.

C. ANTHONY: And it`s -- you know, it`s unexplainable. Absolutely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, a lot of people think they can explain it tonight.

Out to the lines, Theresa in Illinois. Hi, Theresa. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi Nancy. My question is, do you think that the defense now will try to do an insanity case?

GRACE: I think that may be their only alternative at this point, Theresa.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, this is a human skull and it looks like that of a small child. Don`t know about plastic bag or anything else. Don`t know. No clothes that we know of now, but understand Dr. James is here and we can`t talk about the evidence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Is the search for little Caylee over? Remains have been found just yards away from the Anthony home in a heavily wooded area.

To Margie in West Virginia, hi Margie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I was.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was just wondering if you noticed when Cindy was in the jail talking to Casey, I don`t know if anybody else noticed this, that when she was talking to her, she seemed to be like walking on egg shells. Everything that she asked Casey about, she just seemed like she was like afraid to ask anything.

GRACE: I have noticed that. Why is that, Bethany?

MARSHALL: I think she wants to believe her daughter is frightened and vulnerable. Because if she`s frightened and vulnerable, she wouldn`t be homicidal, mean and cruel and putting duct tape around a child`s head.

GRACE: And very quickly, back to Natisha at the location where the remains were discovered. What`s happening there now? Are they still working?

LANCE: They are still working, Nancy. There is still some light down at the location where the remains were found. They recently just put up some cones on the street so that nobody can get through.

There is actually an Orange County Sheriff`s..

GRACE: OK.

LANCE: . vehicle parked that is here. Nobody is getting through tonight.

GRACE: And Mark Williams, what about at the home?

WILLIAMS: Well, the home is still active. It`s now the crime scene has expanded. They put some tape going back to the backyard. They`ve expanded this crime scene. They`re waiting for a search warrant.

Nobody has entered the house yet. There are seven deputies here. The street is blocked off and it`s been an interesting night tonight for you, Nancy.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant First Class Gerard Reed, 40, Jacksonville Beach, Florida, killed Iraq. On a third tour, a 22-year army veteran, highly decorated, awarded seven army commendation medals, nine army achievement medals.

Set to retire after this tour, dreamed of teaching, an ordained minister, loved preaching the Gospel and talking on the phone with hours with his 16-year-old son. Leaves behind grieving parents, Bobby and Clyde, four siblings, including brother Cedric, also serving the army, widow, T`Wona, son Isaiah.

Gerard Reed, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And tonight, a special good night from Georgia friends of the show, Lisa, John and Steve. Let`s see them.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END


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« Reply #56 on: December 13, 2008, 07:31:58 AM »

NANCY GRACE

Latest Caylee Anthony Case Details

Aired December 12, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: Major bombshells tonight in the disappearance of a 2-year-old Florida girl named Caylee, skeletal remains of a small child discovered just yards from the Anthony home. And now it`s looking more and more likely that these are the remains of little Caylee Anthony. In the last hours, the defense announces in open court that the body size and hair color matches Caylee`s.
And we learn of another shocking discovery at the scene. Our sources reveal duct tape was found over the mouth of the child`s remains. Was the young victim silenced before her death? Tonight, we will play for you the stunning 911 call made immediately after the remains were found. Plus, the local sheriff reveals that evidence at the scene leads police straight back to the Anthony home.

Real-life CSI teams swarm the tot mom`s home, removing multiple bags and boxes of evidence, including vacuum cleaners, a pillow and pesticide tanks. Tonight, are the skull and bones all that is left of little Caylee Anthony?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, this is Orange County utilities emergency dispatch. We found a human skull.

911 OPERATOR: Oh, my gosh!

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That was at about 9:30 yesterday morning, after the meter reader walked 20 to 30 feet into these woods less than a half mile from Caylee Anthony`s house to relieve himself. He saw a black trash bag and poked it.

Investigators were back again today, sifting through dirt by hand in the immediate area where the remains were found, looking for any other evidence that might have been left behind. And we understand they have found additional evidence here.

The remains were not just a skull and bones, but hair and some remaining human flesh. Duct tape was found over the mouth of the child`s skull, stuck to some of that tissue. The tape and remaining tissue could hold clues, possibly fingerprints or traces of chemicals that could tell us who killed the child and how.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators with a search warrant removed more evidence from the house, like this blue and gray shop vac, a pillow, pool chemicals and pesticides.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you believe that this is Caylee?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, we believe there`s certainly enough of an indication right now for us to come here with a motion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Fast-breaking developments tonight, skeletal remains of a small child discovered just yards from the Anthony home match the hair color and bone measurements of little Caylee Anthony. And tonight, we have the stunning 911 call.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we`ve -- this is Orange County utilities emergency dispatch. We found a human skull.

911 OPERATOR: Oh, my gosh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. We`ve got -- is it a meter reader?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m letting you speak right now with a representative of our field services (INAUDIBLE)

911 OPERATOR: All right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything is recorded. Here he is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you doing? A skull from (INAUDIBLE) that we believe is human.

911 OPERATOR: What`s the location?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s right off of Suburban and Chickasaw, in the Caylee Anthony area, right by the...

911 OPERATOR: Oh! Do you have a specific address for me or not?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, it`s right by the school. If you take (INAUDIBLE)

911 OPERATOR: Suburban and Golden what?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Suburban and Chickasaw.

911 OPERATOR: Chickasaw. I`m sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. And the school is right there. I can`t think of the name of the school. Just go right straight down, it dead-ends right into the woods. It`ll be on the east side of Chickasaw and Suburban.

911 OPERATOR: East side of Chickasaw. And what is your party`s name that we`re going to meet with? He`s not touching this, I hope.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, he`s a meter reader.

911 OPERATOR: Meter reader?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, and I`ll just tell him to stay at that location and just stay away from everything.

911 OPERATOR: OK. And if you can transfer (ph) to him to please not walk into the area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

911 OPERATOR: And that would be great, just in case there is something. It may be nothing, but just in case. And you`re from what department?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Utilities customer service.

911 OPERATOR: Utilities.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And if you need any information, my phone number is...

911 OPERATOR: Go ahead and send a call up for a deputy to meet with him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

911 OPERATOR: And is we`ll see you there very shortly. What type of vehicle is he going to be in?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Probably a Colorado, small Colorado, white...

911 OPERATOR: White?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It will have an Orange County insignia on it.

911 OPERATOR: OK. White Colorado truck.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

911 OPERATOR: And with Orange County markings.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

911 OPERATOR: OK. We`ll see you there very shortly, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

911 OPERATOR: Bye-bye.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So many developments on so many fronts. Let`s go straight out to Mark Williams, the news director at WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, you are near the very spot where the remains were discovered. What is the very latest?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, it looks like they`re, first, wrapping up this crime scene slowly but surely, Jane. They`ve been here since 5:00 o`clock this morning. They`ve been going through everything, sifting through the -- even the ground that`s around there.

But late today, the Orange County sheriff`s office, a spokesman for that office, Jane, said they are pretty much positive that the remains found here at that site in back of us belong to Caylee Marie Anthony. And the reason given by SO spokesman Carlos Padilla is the fact that there are no kids missing in the range of 3 years of age. The remains are consistent with a 3-year-old, and it is near the Anthony homestead. Would you believe three tenths of a mile away, maybe 15 doors away, where this -- where the remains were found yesterday.

In addition, defense attorney Linda Kenny Baden (ph) says attorney for Casey Anthony Jose Baez was told that the measurements of the bones and the color of the hair match Caylee Marie Anthony -- Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, so many developments once again coming from the sheriff`s department. Let`s listen to the sheriff himself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEVIN BEARY, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF: There`s certain things that they want to be looking for. Some of those clues came from the crime scene yesterday, and a lot of items were taken into our custody for review.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know you can`t go into detail, but there was something that was found that made you want to search the grandparents` home?

BEARY: Absolutely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That was Sheriff Kevin Beary on ABC`s "Good Morning America" after detectives removed evidence from the Anthony home last night.

Let`s go to Natisha Lance, a NANCY GRACE producer who has been on scene from the very beginning. Where are the remains tonight, Natisha?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Those remains are with the Orange County medical examiner`s office, Jane. And I spoke to Deputy Carlos Padilla tonight, and he told me that they will remain there. What is going to happen is that they will have a conversation with the FBI, figure out which items might need to go to Quantico for further testing. But that does not necessarily mean that all of the remains will be shipped off to Quantico for that additional testing.

Now, they said something in court today, saying that there has been no tentative ID that has been made on these remains. However, the medical examiner`s office did release a press release later on this afternoon saying that preliminary results will not be released, which is a little interesting, saying they have no tentative ID, but now they`re saying even if they do have them, they`re not releasing any preliminary results on those remains.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, listen, I want to bring in the attorneys because what`s so shocking here, Joey Jackson and Darryl Cohen, is that the claim that they have tentatively identified this child as little Caylee Anthony came from the defense attorneys, and you have the actual authorities saying, No, no, wait, that`s premature, we`ve still got to do our DNA test. Isn`t that backwards? Isn`t it the defense attorneys who are supposed to say, No, it`s not little Caylee, and the prosecution is supposed to say, Yes, it is?

JOEY JACKSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Jane, it absolutely is. But here`s the real issue. Now, what has happened in this case, Jane, it has moved from a circumstantial case -- you might remember early on, they were saying she didn`t report it. She ultimately told the police conflicting things. There was evidence of decomposition in her trunk, you know, the Internet searches with the chloroform. This takes that out of the spectrum of circumstantial evidence and allows the direct evidence to establish guilt in this case, and that`s what`s so significant. If there are prints on that duct tape, is there chloroform attached to that body, that`s the significance of this development.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely. Now, Darryl Cohen, the reason why the defense was saying it is Caylee is because they wanted the right to go in and observe the autopsy. The judge said, No way. And the prosecution was saying, No, no, we don`t know for sure it`s her, so we can`t let the defense team in. Is that a fair assessment?

DARRYL COHEN, ATTORNEY FOR CASEY`S FORMER FIANCE, JESSE GRUND: I think it`s a very fair assessment. I also think it`s something, a bone that the defense is throwing out, trying to say, when they`re not allowed in, that the scene is going to be contaminated. As a result of that, our experts are not going to be able to show what really needs to be shown. It`s just a game they`re playing, and it`s not a very good one, quite frankly.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`ve got the phone lines lighting up, stacked up over LaGuardia here. Sherry in Michigan. Your question or thought, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think since Casey had fought with her mother that day and knew that her mother loved Caylee so much, that she could have killed Caylee to punish her mother?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. That`s a heavy-duty question. I want to bring in Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter. He has searched for Caylee Anthony. And I want to dovetail that with another comment today. We have observed - - this is another breaking development -- that the Anthonys returned home from California. They were not initially allowed into their home because they had gotten a search warrant, and they were actually -- authorities were searching that home and removing all sorts of items. And we`re going to get to all of the specific items they removed in a bit because it`s a fascinating list.

Meantime, Cindy and Anthony (SIC) have now returned home. They went in. They grabbed their two dogs, they grabbed their suitcase and they left. What is the significance of that? Is it for their safety, or is it possibly, Leonard, that the information that they`ve gotten from authorities has chilled them to the bone, that they may be thinking, Oh, my gosh, perhaps the child died in this home. I don`t want any part of this home.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: No, it`s not that. I think they had a pretty significant belief that the child was dead prior to that. I think it`s just readjusting their defense strategy as to how they`re going to handle it. They`re probably huddling with their attorneys right now. Somebody said that they were actually filming a Larry King show.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Leonard, how could you possibly say that they were pretty convinced that their grandchild was dead when they flew to California to follow a sighting, when they have said repeatedly over and over again, We believe our grandchild is alive? I mean, you`re not a mind reader, you can`t go in there and create thoughts in their head that they may not be having.

PADILLA: George was a homicide detective for 10 years in Warren, Ohio. He knows what the smell of a decomposing body is. Cindy`s been a nurse for years and years, and she knows what a decomposing body smells like. And Cindy`s the one that posted on July the 3rd, My Caylee is gone.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, OK. Then basically, you`re saying that everything that they`re doing is a big act up until this point, like going to the sightings. But let`s ask this question...

PADILLA: The defense strategy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, they`re going to have to come up with a new one, let me tell you that.

PADILLA: No, they`re going to blame it on Zenaida, and say she dumped by the family house so that she could frame them.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but Zenaida doesn`t exist.

PADILLA: We know that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The Zenaida that they found has nothing to do with this case. Zanny the nanny is a figment of her imagination.

PADILLA: Absolutely.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, we`re going to have to see what they`re going to come up with now as a defense.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Science is science. It should speak for itself, and it shouldn`t be manipulated. And if it can, then it`s not science. We have qualified people, the best in the business, reviewing this evidence so we will be able to actually verify it independently. And that`s all we`re asking for, nothing more. And we`re not even asking to hide it. We`re allowing them to observe whatever it is we do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we`ve -- this is Orange County utilities emergency dispatch. We found a human skull.

911 OPERATOR: Oh, my gosh!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. We`ve got -- is it a meter reader?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m letting you speak right now with a representative from our field services (INAUDIBLE)

911 OPERATOR: All right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything is recorded. Here he is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you doing? A skull from (INAUDIBLE) that we believe human.

911 OPERATOR: What`s the location?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s right off of Suburban and Chickasaw, in the Caylee Anthony area, right by the...

911 OPERATOR: Oh! Do you have a specific address for me or not?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, it`s right by the school. If you take (INAUDIBLE)

911 OPERATOR: Suburban and Golden what?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Suburban and Chickasaw.

911 OPERATOR: Chickasaw. I`m sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. And the school is right there. I can`t think of the name of the school. Just go right straight down, it dead-ends right into the woods. It`ll be on the east side of Chickasaw and Suburban.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Remember that if this is the daughter of Casey Anthony, this little -- is little Caylee Anthony, she is still the mother of this child, and she`s still presumed innocent. And like any person, she would have a right to see remains, to view remains, and to, hopefully, deal with the remains in a manner that would be appropriate scientifically.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Bombshell developments in the Caylee Anthony case. Orange County, Florida, sheriff`s officials say they are confident the skull and bones of a child is that of missing toddler Caylee Anthony. The phone lines lighting up. We`re going to get to them in just a moment.

But first I have to bring you up to date with Drew Petrimoulx, reporter from WDBO radio, on what they found inside the Anthony home. Now, Drew, the sheriff`s officials said that something at the crime scene with the remains was a clue that led them right back to that home. What did they take out of that home?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, first I think we should note that the house has already been searched. This was a third search, so it had to be something that was at this crime scene that led them back to the house. And what they ended up taking out was a vacuum, a vacuum container that would collect stuff off of the carpet when you vacuum, also pool-cleaner chemicals and pesticides. And then they also took out some pillows from the house. We`re not really sure why they took the pillows out, but obviously, something from the crime scene led them back there to remove that, as well.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, Dr. Joshua Perper, chief medical examiner, obviously, the knowledge and the news, courtesy of our producer, Natisha Lance, that the duct tape was apparently found over the mouth of the remains is shocking and it`s gruesome and it`s grisly. How does that relate to what they removed from the home? Could it be something on the duct tape that they`re trying to match up with fibers from the home? Particularly when you think of the vacuum cleaner is removed.

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, this tape is very important because, obviously. it was placed there when the child was alive -- otherwise there wouldn`t be no reason to place it -- and because the sticky part of the tape, there might be fibers, there might be hairs. There might be things which are inside the plastic bag which were discarded from the house, like a cigarette pack which is Grandpa`s or an envelope or other stuff which can be actually directly connected to what is in the house.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I want to ask the attorneys in a second how that evidence would stack up in a criminal trial.

But first, let`s go to the phones. Robin in Michigan, your question or thought, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, first I just want to say how absolutely heartsick I am over what this little baby girl must have went through in her last minutes. But I`m thinking maybe she was suffocated. And if so, the tape would have fibers from a pillow. You said pillows were removed.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what kind of -- I think it just shows the proof that this wouldn`t be an accident. Why would she place tape over her baby`s mouth? I mean, if this was an accident and she was panicked and tried to get rid of it -- but I think this shows how diabolical she is.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think excellent question. Donald Schweitzer -- you`re a former detective with Santa Ana PD. You`ve heard what they removed from the house. You`ve heard what they found at the remains -- the duct tape, the plastic bag, the skull, the bones. What do you make -- how can you put those two together to try to read into what the detectives are thinking right now?

DONALD SCHWEITZER, FORMER DETECTIVE, SANTA ANA PD: Well, Jane, what I`m thinking of is, is that they found some cloth, maybe some kind of material, at the site where these remains are, and they`re just trying to find anything that they could put under a microscope later on. These police are just trying to get it all, get as much as they can, and then get it over to the crime lab so that they can actually do the work and look at it with a microscope.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What about the pesticide cans, though? I mean, of all of the things to remove from the home, two cans of pesticides. It strikes me as very odd. That`s something very specific. They`re not taking out other things, like furniture.

SCHWEITZER: I agree with you. And I think that they may be looking at the Internet searches that were going on with the computer. If they could find a cause of death that`s consistent with those searches that somebody was doing research on, that would go a long way of showing premeditation, and you know, who did it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, one thing just occurs to me is that they said they found a skull, and on the computer searches on Casey`s computer, there was a search for neck-breaking. I don`t know if those two match up, but it certainly seems an odd coincidence.

Donna in Kansas, your question or thought, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, there. Thank you for taking my call, Jane. This baby`s skeleton was found with no clothes. Back in the first or second time she was arrested, she was making fun of the police and she made the comment, They haven`t even found her clothes yet. I want to know how the defense is going to explain that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Fascinating. Either coincidence, or she slipped. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist, sometimes -- and again, this woman is presumed innocent, but sometimes criminals slip and they say things that are incredibly incriminating because it`s hard to keep that many lies together, right?

LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes, sometimes they slip. And sometimes, when people have a very sociopathic, psychopathic personality, they like to play games and say something that`s true in their world that nobody else can discover. A comment like saying, I feel her very near, if, in fact, she was involved, if it`s shown that she did kill her daughter and she was involved in burying her, that may be a way of teasing the police. And it`s very, very twisted.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Leonard Padilla, your thoughts. Leonard?

PADILLA: She didn`t have the intention to kill her, I don`t believe. She chloroformed her to put her in the trunk asleep while she met somebody on the night of the 15th. The tape around the mouth was in case she woke and started making noises in the trunk. But I think what happened is, she overdosed her with the chloroform, and she panicked. And on the 24th, from the -- when the dad almost worked his way around to the trunk, she ran around the corner and dumped her in the bushes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Baez was called yesterday by the sheriff -- and he can correct me if I`m wrong -- and told that the anthropological measurements were correct on the child for her being Casey (SIC) Anthony, that the hair color was correct, and that they were proceeding as if this was Caylee -- little Caylee Anthony.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t want any craziness at the Anthony house. It needs to be left alone. Right now, that house is secured for the possibility of being more or a crime scene later. So I don`t want anything going on crazy there. I want people to act like human beings. And I will tell you, we`re not going to put up with any nonsense.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But the Anthonys have packed up and left, taking even their pets.

I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Bombshell developments tonight. Authorities say they are now confident the remains discovered are Caylee`s.

So many questions. Let`s go straight out to Jannie in Tennessee. Your question, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I`m just wondering, the reward money, if it does turn out to be her, would the utility worker be the one who would get the money? And I just want to say what a great job the whole staff has done on covering this case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, the whole Nancy Grace staff has done an amazing job, including producer Natisha Lance.

Leonard Padilla, reward money?

PADILLA: There was a reward if she was found alive. And for a period of time, I had offered one if she was found dead, but that was recalled because a lot of people were trampling back yards and stuff. And so I took it off the table way back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, this is Orange County Utilities Emergency dispatch. We found a human skull.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my gosh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. We`ve got -- is it a meter reader?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why don`t you speak right now with a representative from our field services facilities? Hi. Everything is recorded. Here he is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you doing? A skull, and we believe it`s human.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is the location?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s right off of Suburban and Chickasaw in the Caylee Anthony area right by the.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh! Do you have a specific address for me or not?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, it`s right by the school. If you take.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Suburban and Goldenrod?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Suburban and Chickasaw.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chickasaw, I`m sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, and the school is right there. I can`t think of the name of the school. But just go right straight down, it dead-ends right into the woods. It`ll be on the east side of Chickasaw and Suburban.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: East side of Chickasaw and, what is your party`s name that we`re going to meet with? He`s not touching this, I hope.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s a.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s a meter reader.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Meter reader?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I`ll just tell him to stay at that location, and just stay away from everything.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And if you can, stress to him to please not draw attention to the area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that would be great. Just in case it is something, it may be nothing, but just in case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you`re from what department?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Utilities customer service.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Utilities.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And if you need any information, my phone number is.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Go ahead and send a call out for a deputy to meet with him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And we`ll see you there very shortly. What type of vehicle is he going to be in?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Probably a Colorado. Small Colorado, white.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: White?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With a Orange County -- it had an Orange County insignia on it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. White Colorado truck.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And with Orange County markings.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Orange County markings. OK. We`ll see you there very shortly, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bye-bye.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace.

Stunning 911 calls after a meter reader going to relieve himself at a wooded area finds a plastic bag and there was a skull and bones inside.

Tonight, it appears ever more likely that those are the remains of Caylee Anthony. Clearly those at the crime scene immediately made the connection, as did the 911 operator you just heard from.

Let`s go straight out to our producer, Natisha Lance.

You, I understand, have some new inside information on when the crime scenes, where are the remains were found, is going to be cleared and what happens to the defense team entering that in the aftermath.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, there is a possibility that the crime scene could be cleared tonight. We`re keeping a watchful eye on it, trying to see when the deputies might clear this area.

What we were told is -- in court today, they did make an arrangement, saying that the defense would be contacted once they were done with this scene, and they would let them know, so they could come in and then do their own investigating of this case.

However, Orange County Sheriff`s Office is saying that they are not going to hold this spot for them. They`re not going to secure it for them. Once they`re done, they`re out of here. They`ll let the defense know, and that`s about it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, they better get over there fast, because given the publicity surrounding this case, when they take down that yellow tape, and as a reporter, I`ve seen it many times, people just swarm in there.

So if the defense wants to check it out, since they have been denied the opportunity to observe the autopsy, they better be standing by.

I want to bring the defense attorneys, Daryl Cohen and Joey Jackson, because it appears the defense team is becoming a dream team.

And Joey, let me start with you and get your reaction to this very, very high-powered team that is being assembled. Linda Kenney Baden is famous from the Phil Spector case and many other cases. Dr. Henry Lee is famous of O.J. Simpson and JonBenet Ramsey cases.

Werner Spitz is a veteran medical examiner. Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, he`s famous from being on this show, we all know him. Kathy Reichs, a very well known forensic anthropologist.

I mean if they are creating this kind of team, what does that say about the kind of case they plan to wage in court during the trial?

JOEY JACKSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, here`s what it is, Jane. It`s always comforting as a defense attorney to have people who are confident and knowledgeable around you. But at the end of the day, you have to deal with the evidence, and, of course, they`re going to deal with it and they`ll evaluate it.

Now, on the issue of them actually petitioning to be present and observing the actual autopsy, let`s start there. No matter how confident or reliable your expert team is, it`s totally not necessary. The discovery rules of California allow -- excuse me, of Florida, allow for the information to be given to the defense for that team of outstanding experts to evaluate it, and it`s simply no basis for other reasons to be there.

The other thing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Daryl -- Daryl Cohen, why is it that the defense was so desperate to get in there and observe the autopsy if it -- if it`s basically a non-bias procedure that really you can count on?

DARYL COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t believe for one moment that the defense truly wanted to be there. They wanted to say they wanted to be there knowing the judge, knowing the prosecution was not going to allow it. So that gives them the opportunity at a later date to say, hey, someone has contaminated this.

I mean, let`s face it. The prosecution is driving this case slow, methodical, meticulous. The defense`s -- and their job is to win a guilty verdict, if that`s where it goes.

The defense`s job is to cut holes in it and to divert. They want to throw up a smokescreen. The more smoke you have, the less chance the prosecution has to drive in.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And let me tell you something about this dream team. And I think they`re all great professionals. I`m not trying to knock them. But they are specialists in smoke and mirrors. Every single one of them -- and I`m speaking particularly of Dr. Henry Lee and Linda Kenney Baden.

They know how to take a case that appears to be an open and shut case, like the Phil Spector case, for example, where she was an attorney, and it ended in mistrial, now a retrial, and they took a case that was very simple and made it the -- most complicated cases of the entire universe, and that`s what I`m afraid is going to happen with this case.

COHEN: Not -- no.

JACKSON: Well, that`s their job.

COHEN: Not going to happen in this particular instance. Florida is a law and order state. I suspect the judge, the state attorney`s office, is going to try a very down and dirty case, unlike what happened in Phil Spector, where it took forever.

This is not California. This is not a liberal state. This is a very conservative state, and in Orlando, I suspect you`re going to see something very quick. You`re not going to see a long, convoluted trial. And they`re not going to get away with.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, unless they get a change of venue to South Beach, you know? You never know what could happen.

Listen, Brenda in West Virginia has a question. Brenda.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, hi. What I wanted to know is, instead of charging her with first-degree murder, why don`t they go on second-degree murder and this way, instead of trying to prove that it was premeditated or planned, at least a second degree murder charge would definitely hold, and she still could get, say, a life sentence in prison.

I had that happen to me. My late husband was murdered, and he was identified by his remains, which was dental, and they went with second- degree murder. And he got life in prison out of it, to make sure that he was.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, ma`am, I am so sorry that that happened to you, and that you had that experience, first of all. My heart goes out to you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And thank you so much -- thank you so much for calling and sharing your wisdom and experience.

Donald Schweitzer, there has been this big debate over whether this was pre-medicated or this was an accident, and then a cover-up. Based on the new information of what was found with the remains, the duct tape, the plastic bag and what was found at the house, have you reevaluated your theories?

DONALD SCHWEITZER, FMR. DETECTIVE, SANTA ANA PD: It`s only supported my theory. I`ve thought for a long time that this was premeditated, given the fact that we have these -- searches going on in the Internet, looking for ways to murder people.

And then we have her behavior. Cold, callous, you know, that wasn`t the behavior of somebody that had an accident. That was somebody that really was kind of relieved that she didn`t have a child anymore. It looked like there was some planning. So I commend the prosecution for going forward with the first-degree -- murder prosecution.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, Leslie Austin, what makes me so sick to my stomach is that apparently because this young lady is pretty and young, people -- some people, anyway, find it harder to accept the fact that she may have -- and I`m not saying she did, but hypothetically, they`re finding it harder to accept the fact that a young mother would commit premeditated murder.

If she were ugly and fat, do you think that maybe they`d find it easier to make that conclusion?

DR. LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Sadly, unfortunately, I think that`s true. We like to demonize people that aren`t ideal, and she has a great media image. She is attractive, she is young. I think it`s terrible to think that a mother could do that. It`s worse to think that a young, attractive lively mother could hurt a toddler like that, such a savage way.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Joshua Perper, when are we going to get the DNA results? Do we know where the remains are tonight, and when they`re going to Quantico, Virginia to the FBI?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": Well, they don`t need to send all the remains. They need to send only a small sample and probably they already sent it with the FBI, and within a week or 14 days, we are going to have the results.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: She is not just my little girl, and I know -- I mean, she`s my baby. She`ll always be my baby. But she will always be your baby and dad`s baby. And Lee`s baby. She`s our little girl.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: Before the Oak Ridge Laboratory report came out, there was a test of the air that was found not conclusive. Of course, none of you ever received notice of that until maybe five months later. And I think it made one blip on the news media. And one little story. And everybody forgot about that.

We`ve got two conflicting results, and nobody says anything when it comes to anything exculpatory when it has to do with Casey, and that disturbs us, which is why we want in as quickly as possible, and to be able to inspect it in the same manner in which it is, and to be able to, you know -- to be able to inspect it appropriately.

Remember that if this is the daughter of Casey Anthony, this little -- is little Caylee Anthony, she is still the mother of this child, and she is still presumed innocent, and like any person, she would have a right to see remains, to view remains, and to hopefully deal with the remains in a manner that would be appropriate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What! We`re going to examine that.

I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace.

Bombshells tonight, Casey`s grandparents appear to pack up and leave their home with their dogs hours after the cops do a CSI-sweep of the home and authorities leaving with bags of evidence, vacuum cleaners, and pesticide cans.

What does it all mean and specifically?

Let`s bring in the defense attorneys, Joey Jackson and Daryl Cohen.

Joey, she`s saying that just because Casey is the mom, she gets to see the remains? She is also in jail charged with murder.

COHEN: Yes, this is.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I mean did -- Scott Peterson get to see Lacey and Conner`s remains?

JACKSON: Very nice point, Jane. Look, the issue on the -- as far as , let`s go back to them taking the items out of the home and establishing the connection. I`ll tell you something. What concerns me is not the vacuum cleaner, the vacuum cleaner container. That`s not of really concern. Because you could explain that away, and certainly this is (INAUDIBLE) the child.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What is your concern?

JACKSON: The concern is the pesticides and the chemicals. If indeed there is an autopsy report and the pesticides and chemicals, there`s a link between the two, that dream team is going to have a significant -- certainly front to mount in explaining away how those chemicals and pesticides translate into that body. That`s the concern.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Fascinating.

Dawn in Texas. Your question, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I have a question for Leonard Padilla. At one point, there was a home-made cot found at some location, and the beads matched some beads that were supposedly in Casey Anthony`s home.

Did -- where is that location compared to where the body was found?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, SEARCHED FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: The -- the little Econ River is approximately six miles north of where the body was found. The body is exactly -- a third of a mile from the residence. The little Econ River is about six miles north.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mark Williams, what is the mood in that neighborhood? You are right there, right where the remains were found, and that`s just less than half a mile from the Anthony home.

What is it like for this community, being the center of the storm again tonight?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, as you know, Jane, I was out at the house last night, at Hope Spring Drive, and I think a sense of relief that this thing, at least in the house, and in the neighborhood, may be coming to an end.

We finally have a body. A body of somebody. As the sheriff`s department said, it is probably little Caylee Anthony. And I think there`s that sense of relief. A little bit of closure for the folks, due to the fact that they have been riveted to this story, not only here in Orlando, but across the nation and around the world, since really the middle of July.

So there`s that somewhat sense of closure. And I think a really sense of closure.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But they`re sick of it, right? I mean, they`re sick of.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think -- in other words, some neighbors of people who are involved in major.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: . dramas, like, let`s say, Drew Peterson.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: . they are sick of it, they want it to end. How about these people here?

WILLIAMS: I think-- I think after we find out who the body really belongs to, or we have an identity on the body and the news crews go away from the front of the house, they`ll say, have a nice day, folks, don`t come back. Because the story is not there anymore. It`s in the courtroom.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you think, Drew Petrimoulx, that the Anthonys can live in that home, given everything that`s happened?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: I mean, it`s going to be hard, and especially if evidence comes out that the -- that Caylee was killed inside the home. You`ve got to figure that it would be very hard for them to function day to day in there.

In fact, they`re not staying there now. They are allowed back in that house, but they`ve chosen to stay at the Ritz -- the Ritz Hotel, so they can -- it seems like they don`t want to be there tonight, at least.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I think that`s absolutely significant. And more will be revealed on that.

Jessica in Alabama. Your question, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, ma`am. I know that the death penalty was taken off the table. But seeing all the research that she had done, and all of the lies that she has told to cover herself from the very beginning, is it possible that it could be put back on the table?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Daryl Cohen, why did they take the death penalty off the table, to begin with, and could it go back on?

COHEN: Well, I think, first of all, yes, it can go back on, but the reality is, in the beginning, they didn`t have a body, and when you take this and go away from hypotheticals, juries like real evidence. Now we have real evidence, and yes, I think they can.

And one other thing I want to point out, the defense team, dream team, bad dreams come as well as good dreams. And it`s very important for the defense -- for this dream team not to let everything go to their heads and be all about them. It needs to be about their client.

But I think point by point, they`re going to have a real major, major problem.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How are they affording this dream team, Leonard Padilla? I mean, these people do not come cheap.

PADILLA: No, most of these attorneys work for a piece of the action down the road, book and movie rights and things of that nature. But going back to Judge Fidler in California, if you go on to one of the computer sites that dealt with that trial, the judge really dressed down, the defense team out there, especially their expert, Dr. Lee, over a nail that was.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, you`re talking about the Phil Spector case, yes.

PADILLA: Yes. Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But -- but nevertheless, these high-priced, high-powered legal experts earn their pay.

PADILLA: But, but.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And they take an open and shut case, which some people say now that -- if in fact this is Caylee, this will become -- and they use confusion and they use an overwhelming amount of minutiae to completely confuse and dazzle the jurors. This is what they`re known for.

PADILLA: Before it`s over, they will have so much convolution going in there.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly.

PADILLA: And -- Zenaida will be wondering if she`s going to get arrested.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly.

PADILLA: I`m telling you, you watch what happens.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.

PADILLA: You`re right, you`re absolutely right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely. Penny from Michigan, quick comment or thought, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, ma`am, I have two things to say. Mr. Padilla, I was just wondering why you`re so sure about Caylee being just, you know -- the tape across her mouth, and then just giving her a little chloroform.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Leonard, final word. Ten seconds.

PADILLA: Chloroform was used to put her to sleep so she could go to her boyfriend`s. And she put the tape across the mouth in case she woke. You don`t want to hear a child screaming out of a trunk of a car. It resulted in death instead of...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And now a look back at the stories making the rest of the headlines this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: O.J. Simpson heads to his new house. The big house.

O.J. SIMPSON, FORMER NFL STAR: In no way did mean to hurt anybody, to steal anything from anyone.

GRACE: Oh, boo-hoo.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you would have gotten off this robbery trial it wouldn`t matter. He`s so narcissistic, I think he would have robbed a year later something else. He would have been in the news and in another trial. He keeps wanting to do the wrong thing. But they caught him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just released grainy surveillance video showing missing mom Nadia Kersh leaving her job at a local market to pick up her 1- year-old son from day care. Nadia never made it to the day care center.

GRACE: With me is Nadia`s mother.

NANCY KERSH, MOTHER OF MISSING NADIA KERSH: She was a dedicated mom. She brought him everywhere.

GRACE: The search still on for the 23-year-old.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Authorities have arrested and charged 28-year-old Curtis Lavelle Vance in the brutal beating and murder of Arkansas anchorwoman Anne Pressly.

GRACE: DNA links him allegedly not only to her attack but a rape attack nearly 100 miles away.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Had they processed that DNA and tracked down this suspect months earlier, Anne Pressly might be alive today.

GRACE: She would be alive today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There may be a break in the case of the missing Florida toddler.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The remains of a young child have been found.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Less than half a mile from Caylee Anthony`s grandparents` home.

WILLIAMS: This is now a crime scene. There is more than likely some evidence that they would find that would tie the plastic bag to Casey Anthony.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight let`s stop to remember Army Private Eugene Kanakaole, only 19, from Maui, Hawaii, killed in Iraq.

He fulfilled his life-long dream of enlisting. He was proud to serve his country. He loved football and track and field. He leaves behind parents Christine and Eugene, sisters Teresa, and brother David, who is also serving the military.

Eugene Kanakaole, an American hero.

Thanks to all of our guests for their insights. Thanks to you at home for tracking this very important case with us. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And be sure to tune in right here at 7:00 p.m. eastern for "ISSUES" with me, Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Meantime have a happy and very safe evening.

END

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« Reply #57 on: December 13, 2008, 07:34:45 AM »

ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL

Is it Caylee?

Aired December 12, 2008 - 19:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, CNN ANCHOR: Bombshells tonight with grisly breaking news out of Florida. The skeletal remains of a young child found in a plastic bag near the home of missing toddler Caylee Anthony. Could this stunning discovery finally break the case wide open? We`ll have the latest details.
Plus --

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT-ELECT: I have never spoken to the governor on this subject. No representatives of mine would have any part of any deals related to this seat.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: As Obama blasts Blagojevich, the disgraced Illinois governor clings to his job with shameless determination. Wait until you hear about the extraordinary measures being taken to force him from office. And who else might fall with him? What do you think about this corruption scandal? We`ll have the latest details and we`ll take your calls on the shocking case.

These issues and more tonight.

Breaking news tonight. We bring you in-depth analysis of the bombshell developments.

Breaking news tonight in the Caylee Anthony case. Just released, the shocking 9/11 call from a Florida meter reader who found the skull of a young child.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Orange County utility, the emergency dispatch. We found a human skull.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my gosh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. We`ve got -- is it a meter reader?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to let you speak with the representative from our field services. Everything is recorded. Here he is. How are you doing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A skull of what we believe is a human.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s the location?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s right off Suburban and Chickasaw in the Caylee Anthony area.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, indeed. Bombshell developments at every turn from the courtroom to the crime scene, starting right now.

Breaking news tonight. More bombshells in the Caylee Anthony case. Investigators now confirm that items found last night at the Anthony home are linked to the crime scene. That scene, a wooded area just a quarter mile from the home of Caylee Anthony, her grandparents and her mother Casey. The gruesome discovery of the skeletal remains of a small child found in a plastic bag only yesterday. And another bombshell from Casey Anthony`s defense attorney in court today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LINDA KENNEY-BADEN, CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Mr. Baez was called yesterday by the sheriff and correct me if I`m wrong and told that the anthropological measurements were correct on the child for her being Casey Anthony, that the hair color was correct and that they were proceeding as if this was Caylee -- little Caylee Anthony.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: DNA results not in yet, but the judge just hours ago announced that Anthony could not have a defense team expert present during the autopsy. It remains that may very well be those of her young daughter.

With me now, Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor, author of "And Justice For Some" and professor at the New England School of Law. Lisa Bloom, fabulous host of "In Session." Dr. Ken Harshbarger, a forensic pathologist. Brian Russell, lawyer and forensic psychologist. And we`re also joined by CNN`s John Couwels.

John, you were in the courtroom today. What was the reaction to the stunning announcement by the defense of all people regarding the resemblance of the remains to Caylee? Was this tantamount to the defense saying hey, there`s been a tentative identification of this child?

JOHN COUWELS, CNN REPORTER: Yeah, it was very shocking, surprising, the fact it would have been the defense in the courthouse would say in open court that a conversation between Jose Baez and the sheriff`s office that the bones, the measurements, the age, the hair color were all similar to that of being Caylee Anthony.

And the fact that it would come from the defense and not from the prosecution and that they even said repeatedly that they could not even tentatively I.D. the remains in open court. And the judge even asked, can you give me an idea of when you could? And they said, no, we can`t. We won`t release anything until we have an absolute positive I.D. from the FBI, who is currently trying to match it by DNA evidence.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lisa Bloom, you have watched very crafty attorneys work their magic over the years. Linda Kenney Baden is a famous attorney. Whenever she`s involved in a case, that means it`s a big case. Why do you think she was the one who dropped the bombshell today revealing that there are all these markers that line up with little Caylee, essentially saying the sheriff is proceeding as if this is little Caylee?

LISA BLOOM, HOST, IN SESSION: And you`re right. Linda Kenney Baden is a highly respected, outstanding defense attorney. She represented Phil Spector. I think she was brought into this case because she is a forensic expert. She really knows her stuff backwards and forwards.

The reason why she said that in court is because the defense wanted access to the autopsy. They wanted access to the testing because sometimes DNA testing destroys the tissue, destroys the subject matter of the testing. So it`s not fair for the prosecution to be able to test something if the defense can`t also test it. That`s why she`s making the identification in court saying, yes, we think tentatively this is Caylee Anthony so, please, let us have access to the remains in a scientific, respectable way so that we can do the testing as well.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now today, the lead sheriff for this investigation dropped this bombshell on ABC`s "Good Morning America." Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIF KEVIN BEARY, ORANGE COUNTY, FLORIDA: There are there certain things they want to be looking for. Some of those clues came from the crime scene yesterday and a lot of items were taken into our custody for review.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know you can`t go into detail, but there was something that was found that made you want to search the grandparents` home?

BEARY: Absolutely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Wendy Murphy, investigators remove from the parents` home and the grandparents of little Caylee, four boxes of evidence, seven large paper bags. They also seized, and I find this fascinating, four vacuum cleaners and two pesticide tanks. What do you make of that?

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well let me speak first to the vacuum cleaner issue because I think that`s the easiest to speculate about. We know that little Caylee`s body was found, despite having no flesh, with a piece of duct tape over the mouth. God bless duct tape.

Let`s send a thank you note to that company. Strong enough to stay in place six months under water. Unbelievable. But what`s beautiful about duct tape, fibers stick, DNA sticks. Stuff sticks.

And when you go and ask for vacuum cleaners, it`s because probably you found something either on the duct tape or in the black bag that was also found that is either fibrous or something that you would expect to find inside of a vacuum.

When you clean your house, all sorts of stuff goes inside of the vacuum and it`s impossible to get rid of. So taking those vacuum cleaners to a forensic lab now, they are going to do the really important forensic work of comparing scientifically and hopefully matching something found inside those vacuums with something either found in the bag, somehow attached to the body or hopefully on that duct tape.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let`s talk about the duct tape. Dr. Kent Harshbarger, you are a forensic pathologist. Everyone saying well there was duct tape on the skull. That means it could have been put on the child`s mouth. And that could be a sign of premeditation. But if there`s no skin left on the child, then that`s a big if. I have no independent confirmation of that.

Then, you know, what is fascinating to me is that everybody is making this assumption, Lisa Bloom, that somehow this duct tape remained exactly where whoever put it there put it, even though the skin has disappeared.

That`s not how it works. I mean, obviously if the skin`s deteriorated and the duct tape was put on the skin, then however the duct tape got to the skull means that something happened in the interim.

BLOOM: Well that`s right and we know the utility worker, unfortunately, kicked the bag. Of course, he didn`t realize what he was doing and then this discovery came upon him. What that means is that the crime scene was unfortunately altered to some extent innocently by the utility worker.

So the duct tape could have moved because as Wendy said, it was under water for six months. It may have lost some of its adhesive qualities.

But we also can be sure that law enforcement is looking inside the home for duct tape that would match the duct tape found in or on the body of this poor child whose remains were found. Duct tape can be matched by manufacturer`s lot. So you and I might have duct tape that looks identical. Maybe it`s black, maybe it`s gray. They look the same. But they can be scientifically determined as to whether they came from the same manufacturer at the same time to really ascertain if it`s the same roll of tape.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me ask this question of our forensic pathologist Dr. Kent Harshbarger. It seems that everybody -- of course, we`re all playing detective because we have to speculate. The authorities themselves aren`t saying that much. But what they are saying is crucial. They are saying that there was some clue at the crime scene that made them want to search the Anthony home. And then they are saying, once they got into the Anthony home, they found something that was absolutely of interest, and we saw them taking all this stuff out. We talked about the duct tape. We talked about the vacuum cleaner. What about the pesticides? How could that fit in?

DR. KENT HARSHBARGER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: The pesticide tanks for a chemical exposure. Maybe there was some chemical or receipt in the bag that was found about when something like that might have been purchased. So we don`t really know what else was in the bag that may have led them to search the crime scene for that pesticide tank. Chloroform residents were found in the trunk of the vehicle. Is that going to be related to the cause of death or not? Maybe that is contained within those tanks that are looking. Duct tape, more important, we`ve heard about the lots being matched. But actually the fracture pattern of where it`s ripped being matched would be crucial. To actually find not only a lot that matches but the exact roll of duct tape that matches. Fingerprints on that adhesive, what fibers that adhesive collected that the vacuum cleaner bags might have in them.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to get back to whether essentially the defense was admitting that this is little Caylee, which is what everyone suspects. Here`s what Casey Anthony`s defense attorney Linda Kenney Baden said today about I.D.`ing the child`s body that has been found.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNEY BADEN: There`s always a tentative I.D. in any medical examiner`s office as to who they think the person is and then they do a confirmation with regular DNA. That`s been my experience. I`d be quite surprised if the medical examiner`s office is sitting out there and saying, this is somebody unknown and we`re devoting all this time and all this energy and all these press and all these objections because we don`t believe that this is the child.

(END VIDEO LCIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wendy Murphy, essentially is she saying that they tentatively identified this child as little Caylee?

MITCHELL: Yeah, I mean, she sort of is. I think most people are of the opinion that it is Caylee because no other little girl that size has disappeared in that area. She had the same kind of hair. All the things you`d expect to match, except DNA, have basically matched.

Plus we know that some other physical evidence was found there that no one is really talking about, but that also is making people more confident to say indeed this is her. But the defense is not going to be held to having conceded the question, if that`s your issue. As a matter of law, now that they`ve made this argument for the purpose of trying to get access to the autopsy. It doesn`t mean that henceforth they`re not going to be able to challenge all of the scientific testing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And let me ask this question of John Couwels, who is our reporter on the scene. When is the DNA going to come back? We`ve heard everything from this weekend to two weeks. Nobody is saying anything definitive. What have you heard?

COUWELS: Well that`s what the judge had asked in court. He asked, can you tell us when you expect any results? And they said, no, judge, we really can`t. And he said, can you just sketch me a timeline, give me a frame, give me something? And the prosecution said, no, judge, we can`t. We have no idea how long exactly it is going to take.

And, I mean, even the defense outside of court when you were talking about the fact that, is this exactly Caylee or not. You know, Ms. Baden has said by all presumption, by everything that is showing, that it appears as though it is Caylee. And she had said in court, too with the fact that that was one of her concerns was that once they do, that`s why they want to be a part of the autopsy. They want to be part of the DNA testing. Right. Her line was she was afraid they would desecrate the remains and they`d have nothing left to test. And that was one of their main concerns.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, well thank you so much, John. We`re covering so much ground. Stay right there, panel. We have a lot more to cover on this gruesome story, including the rush to identify the remains. DNA testing as we just heard, not finished yet, but there is already legal wrangling over the results. More bombshells to tell you about, coming up in a second.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNEY BADEN: Remember that if this is the daughter of Casey Anthony, this is little Caylee Anthony, she is still the mother of this child and she is still presumed innocent and like any person, she would have the right to see remains, to view remains and to, hopefully, deal with the remains in a manner that would be appropriate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The remains of a child discovered near the Anthony home. And today comes news that police have discovered items of interest, key evidence inside the Anthony house. Defense attorneys for Caylee Anthony`s mother Casey say the measurements and the hair color of the remains, the skull, resemble those of little Caylee. I want your thoughts. And with me is my fantastic panel. Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor, author of "And Justice For Some." Lisa Bloom, host of "In Session." Dr. Kent Harshbarger, a forensic pathologist. And Brian Russell, attorney and forensic psychologist.

Brian, as we all know, Cindy and George Anthony, the grandparents of little Caylee, have been very vocal in defending their daughter Casey, the mom, accused of killing her child -- this child that may have now been found. If evidence is found in the Anthony home, the home of the grandparents, could that get them into hot water? Could they end up facing charges?

BRIAN RUSSELL, ATTORNEY: Well, sure. It would depend on whether or not there is evidence that they concealed anything or that they tried to dispose of anything. I think they`ve been outwardly defensive of her throughout this whole thing. But some of the videotapes that I`ve seen and that you`ve probably seen as well of them talking with her in jail suggest to me that they, too, have developed suspicion over time that she knew more than she was saying.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t know, Wendy Murphy. They always seem in complete denial to me and they just went to California to look at a sighting and then they rushed home from California when the remains were discovered. And so their whole game plan up till now has been she`s still alive. She`s out there and that was apparently going to be the defense argument during the trial.

MURPHY: And if anything, that defense has gotten stronger. I don`t know how they feel personally, but at least their spin has gotten stronger with the nonsense about the Caylee sightings here and the Caylee sightings there and when are we going to get our team together and help us find Caylee? Posters, all that nonsense all over the place.

The problem I have is that sort of spin, that nonsense poisons the jury pool. It is strategic. It`s designed to be a dog and pony show, distract us from focusing on the growing evidence against Casey. And I just -- I find that just distasteful. If you want to support your daughter, fine. Just shut up.

The beauty of this discovery, as sad as it is, is that those two will now stay off the airwaves, asking us to go hunt for Caylee because there`s been yet another sighting somewhere in the country. And I`m glad that part of this case is over.

MITCHELL: That`s going to go away now. And I think as a psychologist, I don`t just look at the defendants in these things. I look at everybody. We were talking in the first segment about how -- is this going to be confirmed to be Caylee here pretty soon? I think one of the ways we can believe and know that it is that nobody involved in the whole thing is cautioning us in the media that, hey, maybe this isn`t her. And all throughout this thing, every time the bounty hunter found a necklace or something out in the forest or whatever, we got a lot of cautionary statements from people saying, hey, you guys better be careful. This might be nothing. We`re not getting that here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go ahead.

BLOOM: Jane, can I jump in about George and Cindy Anthony. Because with all due respect, I really disagree with telling them to shut up. You know, they`re not criminals. They`re not suspects. What they have done is try to support their daughter during a time that`s clearly very difficult for them. Many parents will support a child who is accused of a crime, even a crime like murder. You know, there`s no evidence that they are an accessory to the crime in any way.

And if they delusionally believe their granddaughter was still alive until yesterday when the remains were found, can we really put ourselves in their shoes and second guess them and criticize them? I think many of us probably would have reacted the same way, holding out hope after hope, even hope against hope that your grandchild was still alive.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree with you, Lisa, to a certain degree. They have been put through hell. We just saw video of protests outside their own home where they were literally harangued by strangers who formed some group on the Internet and then went over there and started harassing them. And it`s a crazy, wild scene.

So I have a lot of compassion for them. But I will also say that, and maybe we can bring in Brian Russell, who is a forensic psychologist, that they were in denial and the extent of their denial throughout all of this, where they start saying the smell on the car is a pizza.

To me, it almost indicates where Casey got her ability to lie. If a family structure does not have respect for the truth, this is something that becomes part of the family dynamic. Truth becomes a dead issue and people just say whatever works.

RUSSELL: We`ve seen a lot of similarities throughout this whole thing between the mother and daughter, the grandmother and Casey. Also, those Jerry Springer scenes on their front lawn, that was insane. Those people gathering on the front lawn to protest.

But it was also insane how the parents came out and confronted those people. So, yeah, I`ve seen signs and symptoms throughout this whole thing that there were issues in that household. I think that, probably, Casey, her entire life, has been manipulative and lying her way out of things.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yeah, and you know, we have just scratched the surface here. So many other developments to tell you about. Panel, hang tight. Don`t forget, coming right up after this program at 8:00 p.m., I`ll be filling in for Nancy Grace. I`ll have all the latest breaking developments in the Caylee Anthony case. Things are happening and changing minute by minute. Please make sure you stick around. And in just minutes, I`ll have much more on all of this. We`re going to examine all the things that happened in court today and have the shocking discovery and how it will affect the case against the mom, Casey Anthony.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All of this area, we confirmed this with the county, was totally under water when we started doing all of this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you guys at no point ever searched this area?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were all over this area several times, but the bottom line is, it was probably under water and that`s really all we can say right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And when the water receded, they found a skull. Meantime, today, a judge denied Casey Anthony`s defense team access to the autopsy. Here`s what defense attorney Jose Baez said in response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE ATTORNEY: We have qualified people, the best in the business reviewing this evidence. So we will be able to actually verify it independently. And that`s all we`re asking for, nothing more.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`re back. Joining this discussion on the stunning developments in the Caylee Anthony case. And I`ve got to say that Lisa Bloom, I am seeing a new trial of the century come into formation. As soon as I saw Linda Kenney Baden who is very famous in her own right, as you mentioned, the Phil Spector trial and her husband Michael Baden is the pathologist who was involved in the O.J. Simpson case, John Belushi`s death, Phil Spector as well.

Now we have Dr. Henry Lee and we have our good friend, Lawrence Kobilinsky. But I`m seeing what I called the dream team. And as soon as I see that, I think we both know what that means.

BLOOM: Well, it means that she`s got a good defense team and she needs a good defense team. And Linda Kenney Baden also represented basketball player Jayson Williams and got most of the charges against him, got him acquitted on most of the charges. So she`s done a good job in this case.

Look, there`s no question that Casey Anthony needs a good defense team. We want to be sure we get the right person. We want be sure her constitutional rights are protected. I`m disappointed by today`s ruling. I would like to see the defense have the same access that the prosecution has. We don`t want to rush to judgment here. We don`t want to railroad this young woman. If indeed, she is the killer, we want to get it right. And I think today, frankly, we`re off to a bad start.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well I think what I see every time I hear dream team, another phrase comes to mind, Dr. Kent Harshbarger. And that is garbage in, garbage out. And anytime I hear the defense team being very, very intent on getting to the remains, I know that they have to do that for a legitimate defense. But there`s also the specter of trying to challenge every single thing that the authorities come up with. And that is so easy, isn`t it, when the evidence has been under water, since this summer?

HARSHBARGER: Well clearly, there`s degradation of the evidence that occurred. But the policies and procedures that are in place in most statewide crime labs and the medical examiner`s office allow for later review by the defense team.

I think it`s not valid to claim that because the defense wasn`t given access, when they really don`t have rights. The reality is the remains aren`t I.D.`ed. They aren`t Caylee yet. They aren`t the remains of this particular toddler until they are scientifically I.D.`ed, and they don`t have a right to access yet. And the policies and procedures in place in most labs will protect that evidence for later review.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Wendy Murphy, give us a sense of what`s going to happen in terms of this trial now. There`s talk of a change of venue. The trial has been pushed back. They are going to meet to decide. Maybe it`s not even going to happen until March or now with this later.

MURPHY: I`d be surprised if we saw a trial in `09. You know, it`s funny. When there was no body, the defense was rushing to get to the trial, just like in the David Westerfield case with little Danielle van Dam when there was no body. Boy, they couldn`t get a fast enough trial, right? Until oops, now that we have a body, we`re going to do the slow crawl to trial.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Panel, stay right there. So many other new developments to tell you about in just a second.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Bombshell developments in the Caylee Anthony today. Here`s where things stands, investigators confirm items found last night at the Anthony home are linked to the crime scene. That scene, a wooded area just a quarter mile from the Anthony home where the gruesome discovery of skeletal remains of a small child found in a plastic bag were made.

Another bombshell from Casey Anthony`s defense attorneys in court today revealing that measurements and hair color of the skull match that of Caylee Anthony.

With me now, Wendy Murphy, a former prosecutor, author of "And Justice for Some" and professor at New England Law Boston. Lisa Bloom, host of "In Session." Dr. Kent Harshbarger, a forensic pathologist and Bryon Russell, attorney and forensic psychologist.

Lisa Bloom, I want to get a sense of what this trial is going to look like assuming, and it is a big assumption, that this, in fact, is little Caylee. Casey Anthony, the accused, always has a way of adjusting her story to new developments.

So how is she going to explain this now? Is she going to try to pin this also on Zanny the nanny, a person that the police think does not exist?

LISA BLOOM, "IN SESSION" HOST: Great question Jane. First of all, I want to point out there`s a big difference between the attorneys and Casey Anthony. And yesterday morning, before these remains were discovered, they asked for a continuance of the trial date. And that was granted.

So they are not just asking for more time because of this. And secondly, let me say that Casey Anthony is clearly a piece of work. She has lied to the police over and over again sent them all off on false trails.

It`s all going to come down to the forensics now. It`s really not going to matter so much what she said. She`s lied over and over again. We know that. That`s very bad for her at trial. That`s why she`s clearly not going to take the stand.

But time of death is going to be critical. If this poor child was killed at a time, for example, when Casey was incarcerated, that would tend to exonerate her, unless this was a conspiracy type of crime.

Manner of death. Is it consistent with the prosecution is claiming or will claim at trial? Was it chloroform or something else that they can link to Casey?

So manner of death and time of death are going to be important for the defense.

Stay tuned for a very -- a finely tuned scientific forensic defense in this case masterminded by Lindy Kenney-Baden (ph).

BRYON RUSSELL, ATTORNEY AND FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: And Dr. Kent Harshbarger, this is Bryon Russell and I just had a question for you real quick. How likely do you think it is that we`ll be able to tell from cellular evidence found on the duct tape maybe or to other tissue evidence whether that duct tape was applied to the child while the child was still alive or after?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Kent?

DR. KENT HARSHBARGER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: It will be nearly impossible to get that specific answer. There are no -- once the decomposition has -- there`s probably no way even in a fresh case but in this case, it will be near impossible to know whether -- even if applied around the mouth, you can say breathing and maybe the cellular transfer from the saliva being found but that could happen postmortem.

So in fact we`ll never know whether the tape was applied before an attempt to dispose of the body or as a potential cause of death. Which the third thing is going to be of importance is actually the cause of death. What did cause the child -- accident is still a potential.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What about the fact that the head appears to be disconnected from the rest of the body? They found a skull. What does that tell you, doctor?

HARSHBARGER: Just the time interval of her death can be long. So in other words all those soft tissues that connect the spine to the skull have dissolved or are decomposed away such that the ligament support no longer supports the skull.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but Wendy Murphy, there was a search on Casey Anthony`s computer for neck-breaking.

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yes, exactly. And we don`t know the precise date when these computer searches were done, how it correlates with the ever-evolving timeline. We don`t exactly know when she disappeared. There`s been so much misinformation about that -- lies I should say -- out of the Anthony family home.

One thing I want to go back to Jane, we talked about pesticides earlier. I used to be a counsel to the chief medical examiner`s office here in Massachusetts. Pesticides are commonly used when the homicide is, you know, not necessarily intentional, but you are trying to get rid of the body.

It speeds up decomposition and covers up odor; covers up odor. Think about that. Summer, hot; they`ve got to cover up the odor. Try to get the body to decompose quickly so it won`t be discovered. Perhaps that`s why they were looking for pesticides.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So if they could take -- and we saw them take the pesticide containers out of the Anthony home and they can match up --

MURPHY: Exactly.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- those pesticides with the smell or the pesticide at the crime scene where the skull was found in the plastic bag.

Is this becoming an open and shut case, Lisa Bloom? I mean when you consider all the other evidence, the cadaver dogs hitting on the trunk of the car that Casey Anthony drove, the fact that a hair strand also in the trunk of the car appeared to match little Caylee.

The fact that chloroform was found in the trunk and that she actually went or somebody on her computer went online and researched chloroform. I mean, you`ve got a wealth of evidence here.

BLOOM: Well, I would never say any case is open and shut. It`s clearly a very strong case against Casey. It was before the body was found. Now that there is a body, and if it is the body of little Caylee, then another element of murder, namely that a child was killed or person was killed, is established.

But let`s keep in mind that intent has to be established; that this was a premeditated killing. Not just a regular killing. Not just an accidental killing or a mistake, but a premeditated killing. And yes there is some evidence of that; the searches on the computer.

Perhaps the pesticide search is because this child was poisoned. And we just don`t know. There may be a mental defect defense. There may be an insanity defense in this case. This is clearly a very troubled young woman. So I would never say this is open and shut. The trial has not even begun yet.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re right, I will never say open and shut because I`ve covered the Michael Jackson case, --

BLOOM: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The Robert Blake case, the Phil Spector case, all of which appeared to be open and shut cases. But we all know what happened with all those cases. But I think you raise a fascinating point, Lisa. And that is the possibility of the insanity defense.

What do you think, Bryon Russell, as a psychologist? Do you think that she might given all the kooky behavior, that we`ve got captured on tape, the dancing after her child went missing, she`s caught out there partying on camera.

RUSSELL: Well, we have to keep in mind that the insanity defense is an affirmative defense. And say well, I did it but at the time, I wasn`t playing with a full deck. And that`s a hard argument to make when lots of things, obviously, happened surrounding this child`s death that were planned and purposeful. You know, either in causing the death or at least immediately thereafter.

And when you see lots of planned, purposeful activity around the death, it`s tough to argue that your mind wasn`t working well enough to know right from wrong or to know the actions were criminal.

Interestingly, there have been some signs throughout this whole thing that we`re dealing with a psychopath or a sociopath. Which actually cuts against an insanity defense, and you`ve studied these people. You wrote a book about it. "Secrets Can be Murder." But there are also signs that don`t -- that are not consistent with a stone-cold psychopath or sociopath.

For example, those are good liars. Look at O.J. Simpson. I think he`s a sociopath. But she is a horrible liar. So it`s -- she`s a very interesting case. I`d love to get a crack at her in person, but we`re all kind of speculating here at a distance.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And, of course, it`s, what, Lisa Bloom, the knowing the difference between right and wrong.

BLOOM: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: When you are insane. You don`t know the difference between right and wrong. And frankly, watching her behavior, I think you could make a good argument that she doesn`t know the difference between right and wrong. I mean the pathological lying, the leading investigators to a place she claimed she work and then finally admitting when they had her in a corner, no, I don`t work here.

BLOOM: Yes, taking the investigator on false trails at a time when perhaps they could have still found Caylee. And that`s just extraordinary evil conduct. Not just right from wrong though. It`s also the ability to conform her conduct to the law.

And look, an insanity defense is always a long shot.

RUSSELL: Right.

BLOOM: And I`ll tell you, Florida is a law and order state. So these are difficult arguments. It may just get her down from first-degree murder to reckless homicide, a lower charge, something slightly below first degree murder.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go ahead Wendy.

MURPHY: The jury would have to feel some sympathy to buy into it, like with Andrea Yates. There was some sympathy for her. I don`t think there`s any sympathy for Casey, given her behavior after the fact.

But you know what else is interesting psychologically. I took a look at some old notes. In July, Casey Anthony had a recorded conversation with her brother where she said, and we all will remember this now, "I think Caylee is close to home."

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well listen to this. I`ve got it right here. I want to take you back to July when she had that conversation with her brother. Listen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, BROTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: Do you think Caylee is ok right now?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: My gut feeling? As mom asked me yesterday, and they asked me last night and the psychologist asked me this morning that I met with through the court. In my gut, she is still ok and it still feels like she`s close to home.

L. ANTHONY: Ok.

C. ANTHONY: So, I mean, that is still my best feeling at the moment.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

MURPHY: Unbelievable.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wendy, you`ve covered so many of these cases. Often -- and again, she hasn`t been convicted, she deserves the presumption of innocence -- but often criminals weave the truth into their lies.

MURPHY: Yes. And there`s the tell-tale heart possibility. You know, I think there`s a lot that she said that now that we found the body, we`re going to have to go back and re-examine and say, well, look at there. She was saying something else.

I think she may have a lot of psychological problems. But she definitely knows the difference between right and wrong. She covered up. When you cover stuff up it`s because you are afraid of the consequences, of people finding out the truth. That`s enough; she`s not going to have an insanity plea in this case because it`s going nowhere.

VELEZ-MICHELL: Well, you know --

RUSSELL: She probably has a lot wrong with her psychologically. And they`ll have an expert the defense will to come in and say she`s this or she`s that. But that does not at all mean that she is insane at the time she committed the crime for the purposes of, you know, not guilty by reason of insanity defense.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, Bryon, you mentioned my book "Secrets can be Murder." and the whole premise of that book is that toxic secrets can lead to murder. And these toxic secrets are often part of a family pattern. And when there is no respect for the truth and honesty in a situation, it is handed down generation to generation. And people back themselves up into a corner where they have no alternative in their sick minds other than to kill.

My panel sticking with me. Don`t forget, you should stick around for "Nancy Grace" immediately following this program. I`ll be filling in for Nancy and I will have all the latest breaking developments; they`re changing by minute.

Stay with us we have more to come in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: 911, what`s your emergency?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I called a little bit ago, the deputy sheriff I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she`s been missing. Get someone here now.

911 OPERATOR: Your daughter admitted that the baby is where?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That the baby-sitter took her a month ago that my daughter has been looking for her. There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the car.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The chilling call from Caylee Anthony`s grandmother, Cindy, reporting the little girl missing for the first time a month after she disappeared.

I`m back with my panel.

Lisa Bloom, you said it was all going to boil down to forensics. But for me, some of the most compelling evidence is this circumstantial evidence that the fact that this woman, Casey Anthony, did not report her child missing for an entire month. Finally admitted it to the mother, but only when they found her car and it smelled like death. And that`s when grandma called 911.

BLOOM: Yes, that`s devastating to her case as well. And that`s why this case has gotten so much media attention because her story is preposterous and it has been from the beginning. It`s impossible to understand how her daughter has been missing for a month and she didn`t report her. Even if she felt she was in some personal danger herself, what mother wouldn`t put her own child`s safety ahead of her own safety.

And all of the crazy stories she told about where her employer was and who the boyfriend was and they all turned out to be lies. So that is damaging, damaging information against Casey Anthony. No question about it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And Wendy Murphy, we actually have some video which we`ll bring you in a second of little Caylee Anthony with her great grandpa the day before she was last seen.

There she is. Look at that angelic little child.

Now here`s the thing. This occurred after -- you see right there. This occurred -- actually, that is June 15th is that video. This occurred after Casey claimed that she dropped the baby off with this Zenaida Gonzalez on June 9th. And she said she left her at this apartment complex called the Sawgrass Apartment at a certain apartment that turns out to have been vacant for more than a month.

They stuck with that story until the video you just saw came up. And when authorities found that video and said, wait a second, it was June 15th that you went on Father`s day to visit the great grandpa. Everybody in the family said, oh, wait a second. Yes, we got mixed up. Actually, it was -- and then the story changed.

And then ultimately, Casey ended up saying that Zenaida Gonzalez, Zanny the nanny took the child from a park. Grabbed her and took off and handed her a script and said read this; that according to the bounty hunter.

RUSSELL: And all that concoction of stories and stuff like that. That`s psychopathic stuff that cuts against an insanity defense. A psychopath or a sociopath is somebody who does something wrong and knows they are doing them.

So I expected -- as a psychologist and an attorney, I expected more of something along the lines of she didn`t intend the death but the death happened. Maybe she intended to sedate the kid and then -- so rather than being guilty of murder, she`s guilty of a negligent homicide maybe rather than first-degree murder and a cover-up afterwards. I`m thinking that`s what happened.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wendy Murphy, do you see that or do you see what this high-powered defense team that they`re going to go for broke and try to get her off completely. Because again, as we`ve learned, there`s no such thing as an open and shut case in America anymore.

MURPHY: I think what they are going to do, at least at this point, until more information comes out and there`s a lot we don`t know yet. The police haven`t revealed everything. And that`s a good thing.

You know, look. They`re going to say the state hasn`t met its burden because, among other things why would she kill the child. If the prosecution says she didn`t like here and she was cranky and wanted to have her free-spirited ways. It`s hard for a jury to get their head around the idea that you would kill your own child, toss her into a snake-filled swamp after she`s dead just because you wanted to go out and party with your friends.

I don`t know. I think there`s more to the story, Jane. I think that apartment; there`s more to the story about that apartment. It was vacant. Casey tells police that that`s the apartment where she used to bring the kid and she just happened to be a good guesser, that that would be an apartment that would just be vacant.

Were people there before? What were they doing in that apartment? Where was she from the 9th to the 15th?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now you`re starting to sound like a defense attorney.

MURPHY: No, what I`m saying is there`s more to the story and both sides have to deal with whatever that more to the story is.

BLOOM: Jane, you know what`s sad? When you see that video of little Caylee with her great grandfather and you think about two-year-olds, my children when they were that age or two-year-olds that you might know. Most 2-year-olds are not going to be real comfortable sitting in the lap of somebody like that.

She`s very, very comfortable with her great grandfather. She clearly loves him. She snuggles in, almost goes to sleep at one point. This was a family that had options for Casey. If she didn`t want this child, she could have let her parents raise the child. There were other family members that the child felt comfortable with.

What is so sad is that if she did this, she felt this is what she had to do to have her free-spirited life, and she didn`t have to do it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But the fact is, she did not want this child. According to the court documents, a friend of hers said, I`m not able to have a child -- back when Casey was still pregnant with this girl, and said, I would be willing to take the child. Apparently Casey went to her mother, asked permission, the mother said no, you have to keep the child and you have to keep it -- you cannot give it away, give it up for adoption.

That`s the tragedy, and the morality tale of this entire Shakespearean drama, is that when you try to control your children to that extent, it can really, really, really bite you.

But I think you`ve raised so many important questions. Wendy Murphy, I was wondering whether prosecutors could actually try to offer her a deal.

Look, this is going to be a nightmarish trial, one of these trial of the century kinds of things, where there is a mini city set up for the media, and then they`re going to do a change of venue, they`re going to try, anyway, and everybody is going to have to commute long distances. Don`t you think that they might be thinking in the back of their heads, now we can approach her and say, look, tell us what happened, and what can they give her in return though? They have already taken the death penalty off the table.

MURPHY: What`s weird about this case is there is no victim waiting desperately to hear the truth, because the victim is the -- you know, is the child of the suspect, so there is no suffering family wondering what the truth is. They all know. They`re just not telling.

So -- and I don`t like giving up deals to save money. This isn`t a swap meet. You have a trial, because justice should be done for that child, whether or not her mother is the killer. You`ve got to do the right thing by the kid. And the whole world is watching to see whether we`re going to be fair and that means honoring this child`s life, not giving out discount sentences just because we finally found the body and we need to save money.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Up next, we`re going to talk about whether they could take the offer to remove the death penalty off the table and bring it back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we`ve -- This is (inaudible) utility and emergency dispatch. We`ve found a human skull.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my gosh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. We`ve got -- is it a -- I`m going to let you speak with a representative from our field services. Everything is recorded. Here he is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you doing? The skull of a -- we believe it`s human.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s the location?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s right off of Suburban and Chickasaw in the Caylee Anthony area, right by the --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: "Oh." That says it all.

Fascinating as a meter reader, who -- let`s face it -- nature called, he had to go relieve himself, and he went off the road and he went back there, and actually found that bag, picked it up, and there was a skull in it.

Lisa Bloom, your response to that caught on tape.

BLOOM: Yes, did he say it`s in the Anthony area? Is that what I hear him saying? So it sounds like right off the bat, this stranger, this man who has nothing to do with this crime, this incident or this family, understands the implications of what he has found. He says it`s a human skull and you hear the dispatcher say, oh! And these are people who are trained to get these calls day in and day out.

Everybody immediately understands the implications that perhaps this is Caylee Anthony, the little girl, the entire community has been looking for. This is something I can see the defense using, by the way, in support of a change of venue motion, because everybody in that community is just saturated with this crime.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But Wendy Murphy, given that this has gotten global coverage, and everybody in the country, you just say the word "Caylee," they know exactly what you`re talking about, how does a change a venue work when we live in a global village?

MURPHY: It`s not going to work. I had a party at my house -- all these profession women -- that`s all they wanted to talk about. I`m telling you, you can`t go anywhere. That`s one of the reasons the venue motion will be denied.

But remember, we`re talking about a spot that was a three-minute walk from Cindy and George`s home, okay? The grandparents of this little girl; three minutes from their home. Pesticides taken from their house, because it was forensically related to whatever they found at the scene where the body was located.

I hope the police put the squeeze on Cindy and George. And I`m not saying they have anything to do with the death, but there is funky about a woman who says, "I smelled death in that car," and two weeks later says, whoops, I made a mistake, that was pizza. I wish this was smell-o-vision instead of television. You know why? If we could get the audience to understand what the smell of death is, you would never, ever mistake it for pizza at any stage.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re going to give you the last word, Wendy, and you said it best. It`s not pizza.

My panel is fantastic: Wendy, Lisa, Kent, Brian. Thank you so much for your insights.

Up next, I`m going to be filling in for Nancy Grace with the very latest on the continuing investigation in Florida. Bombshell, shocking tapes; please, stick around for more.

END


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0812/12/ijvm.01.html
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« Reply #58 on: December 16, 2008, 08:29:42 AM »

NANCY GRACE

More Bones Found in Caylee Anthony Case

Aired December 15, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. As we go to air, skeletal remains confirmed by sources to be little Caylee found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses away from the Anthony home. A utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag, kicks it, a human skull literally rolls out. We believe the trash bag, black in color, contains nearly a full set of child`s remains.
FBI and investigators back in those woods this morning, deputies remaining tight-lipped, but we have confirmed a trail of bones leading to the child`s skull. A team of experts there all weekend, combing those dense woods for more remains, sifting through literally buckets of leaves and dirt, pulling out branches, methodically checking the area where the skull was found. Police conducting a search of the Anthony home late into the night. What in that plastic bag links the child`s remains back to the Anthony home?

And tonight, in a stunning twist, was the child`s skull tightly bound in thick industrial-strength duct tape? The body wrapped in plastic. Tonight, we learn some of those remains already at Quantico`s FBI lab. And in another bizarre turn, the grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony, still blame it all on the nanny.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Orange County utilities emergency dispatch. We`ve found a human skull.

911 OPERATOR: Oh, my gosh!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to reports, investigators found a trail of bones close to where the skull of a young child was found early Thursday near the Anthony home.

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: I know in my heart she`s not far. I can feel it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: FBI agents and Orange County investigators are back searching the area today, hoping to find more evidence. Authorities have yet to officially identify the remains found, including a human skull. But detectives believe the remains are likely that of missing 3-year-old Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) a human skull, and it looks like that of a small child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meanwhile, investigators concluded their search of the Anthony home, which was examined by police after something of interest was found in the area where the remains were discovered by a local meter reader.

CASEY ANTHONY: All I want is Caylee home, but I want to be there when she comes home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Yes, well, maybe not. Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Stunning details emerge at the scene where a child`s skull discovered completely by chance. Tonight, a trail of bones?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, and I`ll just tell him to stay at that location and just stay away from everything.

911 OPERATOR: OK. And if you can, try to stress to him to please not draw attention to the area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. OK.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: We`re going to get our little girl back, and she`s going to be just as she was. I won`t let her out of my sight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The FBI and Orange County investigators reportedly found a trail of bones in the wooded area where remains were found just yards from the Anthony home. One Orlando station is reporting that dozens of bones, which may or may not be related to the skull found last week, were spotted by investigators combing through the crime scene.

CASEY ANTHONY: I want her to be found whether I`m still stuck in here or not. I don`t care.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: FBI agents sifted through buckets and buckets of dirt dug up from the wooded area believed to be little Caylee Anthony`s shallow grave. They could be searching for more bones, but they probably discovered the most crucial evidence already, duct tape stuck to the child`s mouth, with part of the flesh still intact.

CASEY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) my gut every day, stronger and stronger, I know we`re going to see Caylee. I know she`s coming home. I can feel it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Official identification of the remains is expected any time now, while the FBI and local detectives continue to gather more evidence.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: They said that you said everything would make sense once we found Caylee.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, yes. Once you have someone that you can talk to, you can get a real explanation from, that knows where she has been. It`s going to have to be because up to (ph) that point -- once we get Caylee, everything else will figure itself out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, a stunning discovery allegedly of a trail of bones leading to a child`s skull. All of this just 15 homes away from grandparents George and Cindy`s home.

Straight out to special guest joining us right now, famed forensic pathologist Dr. Henry Lee. He is a forensic scientist and a consultant on the Anthony defense team. Dr. Lee, thank you for being with us. Dr. Lee, what have you heard regarding a trail of bones leading to the child`s skull?

DR. HENRY LEE, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO DEFENSE TEAM: That`s the first time I heard. We were in Florida yesterday. However, as you know, the coroner (ph) did not judge (ph) did not prove that. So the other defense expert, we did not have chance to observe, nor examine anything.

GRACE: Dr. Henry Lee, everyone, famed forensic scientist, is on the Anthony defense team. Dr. Lee, you are saying the judge denied a particular motion. Was that to allow you and other defense experts on the scene while police were processing it?

LEE: Not exactly observe. Not really join examination. But many time, you know, like (ph) cases, most of time, they allow for defense expert to observe. Some of the time, we even join together, work on the searching (ph) of the remain or search of the trace evidence.

GRACE: To Sheryl McCollum joining us tonight, crime analyst and director of the cold case squad at Pine Lake Police Department. Sheryl, I find that highly unusual, that defense experts are at the initial processing of the scene? No way!

SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME ANALYST: No way. With all due respect to Dr. Lee -- and I`ve trained under Dr. Lee -- no way are they going to be on my crime scene. They`re not necessary. They`re not needed.

GRACE: Back to Dr. Henry Lee, who, as you all know, is a famed forensic scientist on the Anthony defense team. Dr. Lee, I`ve just got to ask you, you know, tot mom Casey Anthony was siphoning gasoline from her family`s car to fill up her own tank. How the heck are you getting paid? I`m sure you`re costing a pretty penny. Dr. Lee does not come cheap.

LEE: No, we did not get any pay for that and for -- I`ll say, you know, this country, as you know, everybody entitled a defense. And many forensic experts, we do pro bono cases and that`s our obligation to our profession. As an expert, we look at evidence, doesn`t matter inculpatory, exculpatory, we report (ph) as it is. I don`t think should be labeled as a defense expert going to just for defense. Many time, found more evidence, inculpatory evidence, than the police found. There -- you know, case history, case example, many time we`re allowed to work on the case together. Many of my cases, I let the defense expert observe. It`s nothing wrong.

GRACE: So Dr. Lee...

LEE: Nothing unusual.

GRACE: Dr. Lee, are you telling me that you are working on the case pro bono, for free?

LEE: Yes.

GRACE: Dr. Henry Lee is with us, everyone. Dr. Lee, the body was found this past Friday. Investigators have been out there ever since. They have stated -- they`re pretty tight-lipped -- that something in or about that bag is definitely linked back to the Anthony home. What is it, Dr. Lee?

LEE: Well, if it`s a plastic bag or masking tape, definitely you should collect all the bags and tape from the home and try to compare. That`s a usual -- not really unusual. That`s a very common practice. I have many past cases like that. We compare all the plastic bags which we can seize from the individual`s house.

GRACE: And Dr. Henry Lee is with us, everyone. Sheriff`s deputies took up quite a treasure trove out of the Anthony home during a late-night search, including vacuum cleaners, pillows, pesticide tanks. Dr. Lee, what do you believe they were looking for?

LEE: I think this is so-called shotgun approach, just collect everything, later try to see whether or not can link something from debris from the vacuum bags because you -- the search warrant let you search, seize some of evidence, you should seize everything possible.

GRACE: Dr. Lee, have you been told by the defense when they believe they`ll go to trial?

LEE: No. I think, you know, that`s a legal issue. I was told Saturday afternoon they`re going to release the scene. That`s why I was in Chicago, working on a case. Right away, they ask me to be in Orlando. That`s later Sunday, we heard they are not going to release the scene. That`s why I come back because just -- life have to go on. Connecticut, we still have a lot of other cases to work on.

GRACE: With us, everyone, famed forensic scientist Dr. Henry Lee. He is now on the Anthony defense team.

Let`s go to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark Williams, you have been there on the scene from the get-go. I want to find out a lot of things. Number one, was the bag black in nature? Was there something in the bag, not just the bag and the duct tape itself, that links this back to the Anthony home? Why were the Anthonys kept out of their home during that late night search, and why did they go back? Hit me.

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: OK. Here we go. What we understand is from our sources that that may be a plastic bag over the body. The body was initially put in a plastic bag. That bag broke, or it became very smelly, the decomposition took place. She took a second bag, put it over the first bag, and used duct tape to wrap it. From that point, she drove around with the body for several days...

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait. Back it up about three sentences. Repeat?

WILLIAMS: OK. She double-bagged the body, from what we understand. From our sources, who I talked to just the other day, that she had an initial bag, put the body in there, and then when the stench became so much, she put it in a second bag, then used duct tape to wrap the front, took it, drove it around for a while, and then when George decided to get the gas cans out of the back of the car, that`s when she decided that she better allegedly dump that body someplace. So that`s what my sources are telling me.

Also, the Anthonys kept out of their home since Thursday night. They came back from a West Coast media blitz, Nancy. And the place automatically became a crime scene because of what they found. They were allowed back in their home, and they went back to their home Sunday afternoon.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: Dad, I don`t care about all this other stuff. I mean, I don`t care about the media. I don`t care about what people have been saying about me. It doesn`t matter because I know it`s not true, and everyone that knows me knows that it isn`t true. All I want is Caylee home, but I want to be there when she comes home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: FBI agents and investigators there spending a fifth day searching woods near Orlando for clues in Caylee Anthony`s disappearance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: FBI agents sifted through buckets and buckets of dirt dug up from the wooded area believed to be little Caylee Anthony`s shallow grave.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A utility worker found a child`s skull half a mile from the home that the toddler shared with her mother and grandparents.

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: Do you think Caylee`s OK right now?

CASEY ANTHONY: My gut feeling? As Mom asked me yesterday and (INAUDIBLE) last night and the psychologist asked me this morning that I met with through the court, in my gut, she`s still OK and it still feels like she`s -- she`s close to home.

GEORGE ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: So I mean, that`s still my best feeling at the moment. Again, if that changes, I mean, obviously, I`m going to reach out and say something immediately, but I know Mom will understand this better than anyone, that there is that type of bond that you have with your kids.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Right.

CASEY ANTHONY: And it`s -- you know, it`s unexplainable, absolutely.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) still believe Zenaida Gonzalez had something to do with this?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But not the Zenaida Gonzalez that Mr. Morgan represents. And Casey Anthony has made it clear from the beginning that the individual that Mr. Morgan represents is not the Zenaida Gonzalez that she was referring to.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why do you still think that Zenaida (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was the last person in custody of Casey -- or of Caylee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is the new attorney for grandparents George and Cindy. Apparently, they are sticking with the story and blaming it all on Zanny, the nanny, although, apparently, Caylee`s remains have been found only 15 homes away from grandparents George and Cindy Anthony`s home.

Out to Natisha Lance, our producer standing by at the location where the remains were found. Natisha, what`s happening now?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, they`re still investigating this area, Nancy. Crime scene investigators, FBI, have all been on the scene today. They said that they expect to wrap up probably on Wednesday. But as you said earlier, they are sifting through this material, literally picking up with their hands leaves, dirt, soil, all types of foliage, dumping them into these big buckets and then sifting through them.

Now, they`ve said that they`ve discovered some smaller bones in addition, while they have been doing that sifting, and those bones will be sent off to the medical examiner`s office. But as of right now, like I said, doesn`t look like they`ll be wrapping up until about Wednesday.

GRACE: Also there at the location where the remains of who we believe to be little Caylee have been found is bounty hunter out of Sacramento, Leonard Padilla. He first put up the tot mom`s bail, came off the bail, and has now been at the forefront, along with Equusearch`s Tim Miller, looking for little Caylee.

Leonard Padilla, you predicted all along it would come down to this. Explain to me what your sources are telling you, the theory as to how the bones became scattered, resulting in a trail of bones.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: It`s not exactly a trail. What happens when a body like this gets dumped and it`s under water for a period of time, after the water dries off, the little critters come out and they pick up particles of the body, they pick up bones, and they take them off to their shelters. And their shelters are usually under the palmettos a foot, a foot-and-a-half. And you will see this area basically cleaned of all palmettos, of all topsoil, in order to get down into the little burrows.

And I`m going to tell you something. Besides there being a legal need for a complete and thorough investigation of that area, Sergeant Allen also is looking at it from an angle, I believe, of morality, and that is that all of Caylee be buried at one time in a funeral service. Not just get enough to what you need for DNA and then run off and leave the rest of her scattered out there. I believe he`s a very moral man, and that`s what he`s doing right now.

GRACE: To Dr. Susan Lipkins, psychologist and author of "Preventing Hazing." Dr. Lipkins, thank you for being with us. The thought that some of her remains may be left out in the woods must be devastating to George and Cindy Anthony. Why? Why is that -- what is that, insult to injury? But why is that fact so disturbing?

SUSAN LIPKINS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I`m not even sure that they`ve accepted the fact that Caylee is dead. And I think that the parts -- you know, you would like to have a funeral. It`s like an ending for everybody, the entire country, as well as this family. And as they do in any tragedy, they like to put all the pieces of the puzzle and the person back together, so they can say a true good-bye.

GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, joining us out of Orlando. Drew, with dental records, little Caylee could be identified almost immediately. Why are they not officially calling it?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: They say they have to get these lab -- these test results back from the lab there in Virginia. And the thing is, there`s been conflicting reports. Initially, we heard that the ID could come back as soon as Sunday or even today. Now we`re hearing the end of the week. And we`ve also heard maybe not even until next week until we finally know. So there`s just been conflicting reports on how long it will actually take them, and you know, what actual physical evidence they`re going to use to make an exact positive identification.

GRACE: And to Dr. Daniel Spitz, medical examiner joining us out of Madison Heights, Michigan, also a forensic pathologist. Dr. Spitz, explain to me, if there is no soft tissue left, how can you get DNA from bones?

DR. DANIEL SPITZ, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, you can easily extract DNA from bones. And once you have the DNA from the bone, you can make a comparison with a known sample from the parents or something that has Caylee`s DNA on it.

GRACE: When we come back, was the child`s skull bound tightly in duct tape?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The judge declined to give the defense any rights to the body until it`s ruled to be Caylee. But neighbors are so convinced, they already started saying their good-byes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just kind of think it`s just really sad and unfortunate -- you know, just a way to pay my respects by coming out here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All weekend, two sources speaking on condition of anonymity tell us they`ve been finding a small trail of bones. Thirty members of the FBI`s evidence response team and other crime scene investigators have been sifting through dirt and debris around the area where a child`s skull was discovered by a meter reader Thursday morning. Sources say it had long, light hair. Its mouth was duct taped shut. Investigators say they`re still trying to figure out why.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Apparently, a trail or something like a trail of bones leading to a child`s skull. New evidence emerging. Experts, police, sheriffs, the medical examiner`s office out in those dense woods all day today after the remains of a small child found on Thursday of last week.

Straight back out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, what can you tell me about a so-called "dream team" being put together? They`ve got their hands full if it`s true duct tape was found wrapped around the child`s skull.

WILLIAMS: Yes, well, this dream team, of course, has been put together by Casey Anthony`s attorney, Jose Baez, one of the people, of course, Dr. Henry Lee, eminent forensic specialist, also Linda Kenney Baden, who`s a self-proclaimed forensics expert, and of course, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, who appears on this show.

Again, my sources tell me that the body and -- the duct tape was wrapped all the way around the head, including the mouth, and in a very tight fashion. Again, those people talking to me on -- you know, anonymity. So consequently, we have some hair, we even have, allegedly, some soft tissue that was stuck to the sticky part of the duct tape. Now, that sticky part kind of preserved everything. Plus, they can get other evidence off of there, like of hair, and of course, fingerprints.

GRACE: Out to the lawyers, Robin Sax out of LA, Penny Douglas Furr out of Atlanta, Doug Burns out of New York. Robin Sax, originally, the death penalty had been taken off the table. But if this skull was bound in duct tape, that`s a whole `nother animal.

ROBIN SAX, PROSECUTOR: It certainly is a whole other animal. All of a sudden, the reason that the prosecutors took the death penalty off the table before was an unclear version of the events. But now we have a skull, and as was just discussed, with the tape and the preservation of evidence, we now really can see the calculation and deliberation.

GRACE: What about it, Penny?

PENNY DOUGLAS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I see a lot of confusion here because the person said he picked up the bag and a skull fell out. He didn`t mention anything about it being covered in duct tape.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Doug Burns, what do you think?

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t know. I still think it`s going to be hard to sort out exactly what happened on the killing itself.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, this is Orange County Utilities Emergency dispatch. We found a human skull.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my gosh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. We`ve got -- is it a meter reader?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why don`t you speak right now with a representative from our field services facilities? Hi. Everything is recorded. Here he is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you doing? A skull, and we believe it`s human.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is the location?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s right off of Suburban and Chickasaw in the Caylee Anthony area right by the.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh. Do you have a specific address for me or not?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, it`s right by the school. If you take.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Suburban and Goldenrod?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Suburban and Chickasaw.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chickasaw, I`m sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, and the school is right there. I can`t think of the name of the school. Just go right straight down, it dead-ends right into the woods. It`ll be on the east side of Chickasaw and Suburban.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: East side of Chickasaw, and what is your party`s name that we`re going to meet with? He`s not touching this, I hope.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s a.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s a meter reader.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Meter reader?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I`ll just tell him to stay at that location, and just stay away from everything.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And if you can, stress to him to please not draw attention to the area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that would be great. Just in case it is something, it may be nothing, but just in case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you`re from what department?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Utilities customer service.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Utilities.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And if you need any information, my phone number is.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Go ahead and send a call out for a deputy to meet with him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And we`ll see you there very shortly. What type of vehicle is he going to be in?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Probably a Colorado. Small Colorado, white.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: White?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With a Orange County -- it had an Orange County insignia on it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. White Colorado truck.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And with Orange County markings.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Orange County markings. OK. We`ll see you there very shortly, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bye-bye.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: You just heard the 911 call from the meter reader. He made the discovery of what many believe to be the remains of little Caylee Anthony.

Back out to Mark Williams at WNDB, it`s my understanding that since the discovery of these remains there have been no visits to the jail to see the tot mom. Is that true?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: That is very true. As a matter of fact, George and Cindy Anthony have remained -- have stayed away from the jail as much as they can.

Their new lawyer today during a mid-day news conference said the fact that they haven`t been to the jail, Nancy, is they don`t want to be recorded, because, you know, once those things are recorded it gets out into the media. And they.

GRACE: OK. You know what? Out to Doug Burns. You know what, Doug? If all these people believe little Caylee was alive, the parents and the tot mom, wouldn`t she need consoling from her family? Jail cameras be damned?

You really think, Doug Burns, if somebody in your family has a loss of a child, you don`t go comfort them?

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. There is no question that all of the behavior is totally bizarre. And more importantly, let`s add another little footnote in, which is that the grandparents have not exactly been bashful with respect to appearing on the media themselves, Nancy.

GRACE: Penny, what about no visits to the tot mom after the discovery of what could be their little girl?

PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I feel strongly that the attorney is telling them not to go there. They`re being advised by their attorney and their daughter`s attorney to stay away from the jail, because they don`t know how, what they say could be changed or twisted, and they`re saying it`s better if you say nothing.

GRACE: Well, what they, what they say, Robin Sax, joining us out of L.A., is not going to be changed. It may be on video camera -- video camera, but it`s not going to be changed.

What do you make, Robin Sax, of the fact that even -- with all of them believing that little Caylee is alive, or so they said, mostly the tot mom, leading her family on this wild goose chase, insisting the child is still alive and kidnapped by a nanny. Nobody has visited her?

ROBIN SAX, PROSECUTOR, AUTHOR OF "PREDATORS AND CHILD MOLESTERS": No one is visiting her is surprising because George Anthony is involved and was involved in law enforcement for many years. They have been on tape many, many times. So I find that unusual, actually, at this moment, now all of a sudden.

I think the reason they`re not visiting her is they are extremely concerned about their own potential of charges of obstruction of justice.

GRACE: To crime analyst and director of the "Cold Case Squad," Sheryl McCollum, it`s my understanding that the skull was wrapped in duct tape. I don`t know the extent of it. Also, they insist that it is Caylee, even though we don`t have DNA back.

Now, I personally know of other missing children in the Orlando area. So what are their reasons for believing this is little Caylee.

SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME ANALYST, DIRECTOR, COLD CASE SQUAD AT PINE LAKE POLICE DEPT.: Three. One, there`s no other missing children in close proximity.

GRACE: OK.

MCCOLLUM: Two, she`s found within real close proximity to the Anthony home. And three, the remains are the size of Caylee, and the hair is identical to her color and length.

GRACE: Back to Drew Petrimoulx, joining us with WDBO, let me confirm. This is about 15 houses away from the Anthony home, correct?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes, about 0.4 miles.

GRACE: OK. To Robin Sax, prosecutor and author -- Robin, the proximity to the Anthony home. What does it tell you about the killer?

SAX: Well, it -- as I`ve thought all along, I`ve always believed that it was Casey Anthony, and the proximity to the home is huge. First of all, Casey Anthony has knowledge of the area. She has the ability to know the ins and outs of the woods, been there, grown up in the area. She`s had access to the area, so if things got close in the search, she would have the ability to move things, if she had to.

And also, it just goes to show that when she -- if she was in a panic or in a moment of trying to figure out what to do with the body when the odor came to be, it was an opportunity to dump really quickly.

GRACE: Back to Mark Williams with WNDB, it`s my understanding that the Anthonys` private investigator was spotted in and around the Anthony home with some type of a meter that was blinking red? What was that all about?

WILLIAMS: Yes. The new private investigator stopped by the Anthony home last night. It was a device, from what many people tell us, to check for any electronic surveillance inside the Anthony home such as a microphone or a camera that they say.

GRACE: A bug.

WILLIAMS: Yes. That they say, oh, could have been placed in there by detectives and investigators when they went in to take their evidence out over the past couple of nights.

GRACE: And back to Cheryl. Cheryl, why would vacuum cleaners and pool chemicals be taken from the Anthony home?

MCCOLLUM: They`re going to see if the evidence, again, links to anything they found in the trunk, anything they found on the trash bag, anything they`re going to ultimately find on the wrapping that Caylee was found in.

GRACE: Back to Natisha Lance, standing by at the location where the remains have been found.

Natisha, it`s been our report that something inside that bag, not just the bag and the duct tape itself, but something in the bag is linked back to the Anthony home. What do you know?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s right. There have been reports that there was a covering, actually covering these remains inside the bag. We don`t know exactly what brought them back to the Anthony home, but we do know for sure that Sheriff Kevin Beary did say that absolutely, there was something that was found at this crime scene that led them back to the Anthony home.

GRACE: And Natisha, they definitely said there were no clothes in the bag, right?

LANCE: Well, that hasn`t been confirmed yet. There have been reports that said there were -- was clothing inside the bag.

GRACE: I heard them say that with these two ears. I heard them say no clothes. So? Were there clothes or not?

LANCE: Well.

GRACE: Are you telling me there may be clothes?

LANCE: That has not been confirmed by police, that there have been clothing, no.

GRACE: OK. Well, it was the cop speaking, Natisha, so maybe you know more than the cops do. But they said on air with a mike, up in their mouth, no clothes in the bag, which takes me back to bounty hunter, Leonard Padilla.

You said -- you told me on air months ago that tot mom Casey Anthony stated cops haven`t even found the clothes she was wearing that night, which led us to analyze, was the child buried without clothes.

Leonard Padilla, what else can you tell me about the theory regarding the child being wrapped in a -- some material, and in a plastic bag, not just in a plastic bag?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, ON LOCATION WHERE CHILD`S REMAINS FOUND: Well, I can tell you this, that it seemed as though she was wrapped in a sheet or some type of linen. I believe there was also clothing in the bag that she was found in. There was a hole in the bag that the skull fell through.

I can tell you that she was put in that bag on the 18th, and that`s when the skull -- the tape around the skull came to be. I don`t think it was done the evening of the -- or the morning of the 16th, when she, I believe, overdosed on chloroform. I believe she chloroformed her to put her to sleep.

I believe it was the 18th when she wrapped the head tightly with the tape in order to make it look like a kidnapping, furthering the Zenaida Gonzalez thing that they`re going to embark on now that Zenaida kidnapped her. They were getting close with the sightings, they killed the child, dumped her close to the house to frame the family.

And also that Zenaida had a key to the house, so she could have gone in there and gotten tape. She could have gotten a bed sheet or a pillow case, or anything out of there.

GRACE: So they`re actually sticking with the nanny story.

Everybody, we`ll be right back. But right now, we are saluting Dr. John Taylor, a personal inspiration to our staff, who, with the help of his wife Sally, won four gold medals in age 85 to 89 group at Florida Senior Olympics , Ft. Myers.

Superstar athlete, former minister, Doctor John Taylor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How is the family doing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When your sister told you that the body was.

(CROSSTALK)

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: Do not follow me on the property or we`ll call law enforcement. .

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you`re holding up on the possibility?

ANTHONY: Do not follow -- do not follow me on to our property or I will call law.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why are you taking away the memorial, Lee?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, there`s a human skull, and it looks like that of a small child. I don`t know about a plastic bag or anything else. Don`t know it. No clothes that we know of now, but understand Dr. G is here, and we can`t talk about the evidence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The child`s bones were found a quarter of a mile from the Anthony home. And as you see, the Orange County Sheriff`s Office continues to work the site. Down the block, though, a familiar face has made an appearance.

PADILLA: It`s a tragedy, and.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leonard Padilla says he was happy when he heard the bones had been found.

PADILLA: Elation. And then you get sadness -- because you`re related, because, hey, you know, I`ve been vindicated. I told them she was dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Padilla says he`s confident it`s Caylee.

PADILLA: And probably digging up a ten-square feet of that place back there, all the way out to the road, they`re going to know exactly how and when.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It appears people have come to their own conclusion about whether Caylee is alive or dead. Memorials are laid out at the Anthony home and near the search site.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just kind of think it`s just really sad, unfortunate, and, you know, just a way to pay my respects for coming out here and -- you know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whether it is Caylee or not, some -- there is a dead child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Padilla says any way you look at it, it`s a sad way for a child to die.

PADILLA: It was a little girl that had a whole lot of life left ahead of her, and it was taken away from her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Mark Williams, what can you tell me about brother Lee taking down a memorial created by the community?

WILLIS: Well, several people stopped by the Anthony home on Friday night. And they set up a small memorial, leaving teddy bears, a cross, things of that nature.

Lee arrived at the house, Saturday afternoon, roughly 4:00 or so, drove into the driveways with his Mustang, saw what was going on, went over and literally picked everything up, telling reporters to stay off his property, or he would call police.

Basically, he desecrated a memorial and a -- just a remembrance for his niece. And a lot of people aren`t happy about that.

GRACE: Cheryl? Cheryl?

MCCOLLUM: I can`t imagine why anyone would take that down, Nancy.

GRACE: Also, I want to play for you something that the tot mom said behind bars. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

L. ANTHONY: Do you think Caylee is OK right now?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: My gut feeling? As Mom asked me yesterday, and even they asked me last night, the psychologist asked me this morning that I got through the court. In my gut, she`s still OK. And it still feels like she`s -- she`s close to home.

L. ANTHONY: OK.

C. ANTHONY: So, I mean, that`s still my -- my best feeling at the moment. Again, if it that changes, I mean, obviously, I`m going to reach out and say something immediately. But I know mom will understand this better than anyone. That there is that type of bond that you have with your kid.

L. ANTHONY: Right.

C. ANTHONY: And it`s -- you know, it`s unexplainable. Absolutely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Prosecutor and author, Robin Sax, out of L.A. veteran defense attorney, Doug Burns, in New York, and trial lawyer Penny Douglass Furr out of Atlanta.

You know, Doug, don`t you just hate it when your client is either clairvoyant or a killer? How did she know little Caylee was so close to home, 15 homes away?

BURNS: Yes, no, there is no question. She engaged in a whole series of mistruths about where she worked, Universal Studios, the babysitter. It just went on and on and on. And you`re right, from the defense perspective, it`s an absolute horror show.

GRACE: Penny?

DOUGLASS FURR: From the defense perspective, she would have been better off not to talk, just as I answered the earlier question. I said they`re advising them not to talk, just be totally quiet.

GRACE: Well, Robin Sax, I think comforting your daughter over the discovery of her child`s remains is a lot different from talking about the facts of the case. But what do you make of tot mom Casey Anthony behind bars stating I just feel she is really close to the house?

SAX: Well, that comment is very telling and it`s a comment that may - - you may hear again in opening or closing statements. But she also said, and this other phrase, another statement that she made keeps rolled through my mind, which is everything will make sense once we find Caylee.

And we get a lot of the tokens and a lot of nugget from Casey Anthony`s own mouth, and I think that it`s very, very telling and probably the most amount of truth we got.

GRACE: Dr. Susan Lipkins, weigh in.

SUSAN LIPKINS, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "PREVENTING HAZING": (INAUDIBLE) her connection. And the connection between her own mother and herself. And I think that she looked at this young girl Caylee as a doll. She sometimes played with her, sometimes dressed her up and sometimes threw her in the corner, and I think that`s what we`re going to find out at the end of this.

GRACE: Back to Leonard Padilla who is now -- was searching for little Caylee.

Leonard, the duct tape around the skull, where was it, according to your sources? Was the entire skull covered? Was it the mouth and the nose?

PADILLA: It covered -- no, no, it covered -- it was wrapped around the mouth and the head, hard enough to where it is still there with a lot of soft tissue under it and hair under it. And I believe that the tape was placed there post-mortem on the 18th, not on the 16th when she died, and it was there to insinuate some type of a kidnapping.

The other thing you`re going to hear is that that area back there is where the kids in the neighborhood, Casey and other children, used to bury their pets, parakeets, birds, when they died. Also, if you remember the song that she played constantly when she got out of jail, the song with "Under the Water" and things of that nature.

GRACE: Yes?

PADILLA: . that area was under water. It started raining on the 24th of June. By the time she got out of jail, it was three foot under water where the body was. So there`s no doubt in my mind that there`s a lot of preservation took place because the body was under water up until about a week, 10 days ago.

GRACE: Back to the lawyers, Robin Sax, Penny Douglass Furr, Doug Burns.

Robin Sax, I don`t agree with the deal regarding the duct tape. It would make absolutely no sense to put duct tape on post-mortem. The existence of duct tape around the mouth, Robin Sax. She is looking at the Florida death penalty by needle if she duct-taped this child`s mouth.

SAX: That`s absolutely correct. The suggestion to me that it probably is to you the duct tape either shows she was trying to quiet little Caylee for some reason at some point, or she was trying to suffocate her. And I think it goes right to the intent and right to first-degree murder and lends itself to a death penalty case.

GRACE: Penny?

DOUGLASS FURR: Nancy, I still have a problem with the duct tape. It`s been out there for months, and I just don`t think it`s in the same place. I can`t imagine under water for all those months and she comes out still with duct tape on her mouth? Something that`s not right about that.

GRACE: Well, isn`t it true, Doug Burns, that even plumbers use duct tape when it will be subjected to water?

BURNS: Yes, absolutely. But I don`t necessarily.

GRACE: There you have it, Penny.

BURNS: I don`t, I don`t necessarily reject what Leonard Padilla is saying now. The duct tape could have been put on.

GRACE: Yes.

BURNS: . after the child died.

GRACE: Hey, I know what you`re doing. You`re trying to mitigate.

BURNS: I`m not mitigating anything.

GRACE: . the circumstances at the time of the death.

BURNS: It`s a straight evidence point, Nancy. There is no way that you can prove conclusory whether the tape was put on before or after and there`s all kinds of proof.

GRACE: I don`t know about that.

Is there any way, Dr. Daniel Spitz, if there was soft tissue under the tape?

DR. DANIEL SPITZ, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: You know the body was so decomposed that common sense may tell you that the duct tape were put on, you know, in an ante-mortem fashion, but the reality is that there`s nothing forensically that would allow you to distinguish whether the duct tape was put on before or after death.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I know she`s close. I can feel her. Every night before I go to bed, I thought I see Caylee, the moon and the stars in the skies, sweet heart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

C. ANTHONY: I want to see that little girl. I want, I want to hear Caylee laugh. I want to be with my baby.

G. ANTHONY: Yes.

C. ANTHONY: That`s my focus. Her birthday is in just a few days.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Mark Williams, WNDB Newstalk, will the tot mom be -- allowed out of jail to attend the funeral?

WILLIAMS: Boy, great question. I would think that she would be allowed out of jail at least.

GRACE: Really? Why would you think that?

WILLIAMS: I think it`s been done in the past when -- blood relatives have died, and they`ll keep her under constant surveillance.

GRACE: Yes, well, when blood relatives have died but not necessarily at the hands of the defendant.

WILLIAMS: But by the same token, Nancy, they could say.

GRACE: Name one. Name one, Mark Williams.

WILLIAMS: I can`t.

GRACE: Name one.

WILLIAMS: I can`t name one.

GRACE: OK. There. You know all these cases but you can`t name one.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: I`ll be honest with you, Nancy.

GRACE: OK, fine. What about it, Cheryl? Will she be at the funeral?

MCCOLLUM: Absolutely not.

GRACE: And back out to Natisha Lance, will she be at the funeral? Natisha Lance?

LANCE: I don`t think so, Nancy. Not a strong possibility. I don`t think so.

GRACE: I`m hearing Padilla say yes. What about it, Drew Petrimoulx?

PETRIMOULX: I don`t see any possibility they could let her out, especially since the trial hasn`t happened. It would be one thing if she was convicted and sitting on death row. But let her out with the -- with the bond circumstances there, it`s just too cloudy of a situation to let her out before the trial has even happened.

GRACE: And what about it, Doug Burns?

BURNS: Agree. I mean, right now from a straight legal standpoint, she`s on bail. She hasn`t been convicted of anything. However, I don`t think they`re going to let her go. But there would be more reason to let her now than later.

GRACE: Robin?

SAX: There`s no way as a prosecutor that I would agree or could imagine.

GRACE: OK.

SAX: . a judge in this case letting her out.

GRACE: Penny?

DOUGLASS FURR: They won`t let her go, Nancy. It`s just too much of a nightmare trying to keep security and everything.

GRACE: OK.

DOUGLASS FURR: They will not let her out.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop our discussion and Remember Army Sergeant John Aragon, 22, Antioch, California, killed Iraq. Awarded the Purple Heart, the Bronze Star, two army achievement medals.

A devoted Oakland Raiders fan, tattooed the team name above his heart. Loved his dog, Amy, Sue and his 1964 Chevy Impala. Leaves behind parents, John and Denise, sisters Cristina and Brianna.

John Aragon, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END


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« Reply #59 on: December 17, 2008, 09:22:05 AM »

NANCY GRACE

Anthony Grandparents Reportedly Seeking Immunity

Aired December 16, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. As we go to air, police and forensic experts still on the scene, still on the scene where skeletal remains believed to be little Caylee found in a heavily-wooded area, and it`s just 15 houses away from the Anthony home.
A utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag, kicks it. A human skull, a tiny human skull literally rolls out, the trash bag containing nearly a full set of child`s remains, the skull apparently still covered in long, light-colored hair, still intact because of thick industrial duct tape wrapped around the child`s head.

Deputies still digging, searching, even sifting through buckets of dirt for more remains. We have confirmed at this hour, bones still being found scattered along the same location where the skull was found. In court today, a state`s attorney seems to slip up, confirming for the very first time it is the skull of a little girl.

And another bombshell tonight. Are grandparents George and Cindy actually seeking full legal immunity? Today they admit to, quote, "conflicting statements" in the past and now want to cooperate. And just hours ago, the defense in court demanding a second autopsy. Grandparents George and Cindy submit to fingerprinting. Brother Lee only gives in when a subpoena forces him. Top federal investigators working around the clock to identify those remains at Quantico. Tonight, are the remains all that`s left of little Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking developments in the case of missing 3- year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Investigators continue to search the remains site for more evidence after saying they have made significant findings at the location.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That information, obviously, and those items are being sifted through, properly identified, sorted, labeled and submitted into evidence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At a hearing today, an attorney representing the Orange County sheriff`s office revealed that the skull found is that of a little girl.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What we will not do is we will not release photographs of the -- the skull of this -- this little girl to then be broadcast all over the news before the body has even been identified, before the parents have been notified.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Forensic experts are working to officially identify the remains and have sent some of the evidence to the FBI lab in Quantico to confirm the ID. The attorneys for George and Cindy Anthony confirm that the FBI has taken DNA and fingerprints from George, Cindy and Lee Anthony, while the family remains hopeful that the skull found is not their granddaughter.

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: My heart is aching because I just want to be back with our family. In my gut, every day, stronger and stronger, I know we`re going to see Caylee. I know she`s coming home. I can feel it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Right. You can feel it. Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Stunning details continue to emerge from the crime scene.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some of the best investigators in the country are here at the scene, sifting through the dirt by hand. They`ve already found dozens of bones and other strong evidence that has led investigators to search the Anthonys` home again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re talking about numerous -- a large area that is being sifted through, being gridded out in order to make sure that no stone, no area is left untouched where the child`s remains were found.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If they were to find duct tape in the Anthonys` home, they`d be looking for fingerprints and DNA that might have stuck to the sticky side of the tape. And they`d be looking to match up the ends where the tape was torn. Now, the trash bag, even if it`s not from the Anthonys` home, could hold a lot of evidence.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: Jose said that you said everything would make sense once we found Caylee.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, yes. Once you have someone that you can talk to, that you can get a real explanation from, that`s known where she has been, it`s going to have to make sense at that point. Once we get Caylee, everything else will figure itself out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. I understand police and investigators are still at the scene?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: That`s right, and they really aren`t saying when they`re going to be leaving. They said that they`ll stay there until all of the evidence that they can find has been found. Each day, they`re finding more and more stuff. They`ve found, you know, bones pretty much every single day.

That area was also frequented by kids around that, so you can imagine that there`s all sorts of beer cans and debris that`s hidden in there. They have to search through every single thing that they find, so it`s a long, tedious process. Attorney Jose Baez even said today in court that they were taking too long, but Angelo Nieves with the sheriff`s office said today that...

GRACE: Wait a minute. The defense said they`re taking too long to look for the little girl`s bones?

PETRIMOULX: Exactly, and that`s why they want...

GRACE: Man, he`s got a nerve.

PETRIMOULX: ... access to the same site that they`re at.

GRACE: Man, he`s got a nerve because they are trying to put together this child`s skeleton. Does he want the -- does he want her buried with some of her bones still laying out near a playground?

PETRIMOULX: What he wants is access to the site where they`re doing all this searching and where they`re putting together these bones. And he wants to be able to have his experts be at that site while they`re doing this.

GRACE: Straight to Natisha Lance, our producer, who is there at the remains location. What are they doing?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, right now, Nancy, actually, they`ve packed up pretty much for the rest of the night. They will be back out here early tomorrow morning. They said that they actually could be finished tomorrow, but also saying that they could work through tomorrow. So as Drew said, it`s still kind of up in the air right now.

GRACE: What have they been doing out there so late?

LANCE: Doing a lot more sifting. They said that there`s a whole bunch of soil that they have already put to the side, and they are going to go back and look through that again, redoing, recovering. They said it`s pretty tedious. They said it`s an acre of area that they are searching and that they are digging up the soil. And they will continue to continue going over it until they feel comfortable with the fact that they have done their job well.

GRACE: Let`s see a shot, Liz, of the scene there where Natisha is -- Natisha Lance joining us from the scene where the remains were discovered. Natisha, you were in court today, and it`s my understanding one of the state`s attorneys slipped up and actually confirmed it is a child`s skull, a girl`s skull.

LANCE: That`s correct. That`s correct. This was the attorney for the Orange County sheriff`s office, Ann Marie Delahunty. But actually, afterwards, there was a press conference this evening here at the site, and Captain Angelo Nieves from the Orange County sheriff`s office said that this was actually a misstatement, and they said that there have been no definitive results that have come out yet as to gender or the general ID of these remains at this point. And because there`s no definitive results or confirmation, they`re not wanting to have that information out in the public at this point.

GRACE: Straight back to Drew Petrimoulx. Drew, it`s my understanding that there at the scene, they are actually sifting through dirt, like a gold miner would, looking for even the tiniest bones?

PETRIMOULX: Right. And they`re taking a lot of stuff with them. You can -- as you watch their trucks, they`re loading in even sticks, and you know, soil from the ground where they`re actually sifting through that and finding even the most minute little pieces of evidence. And they bring those back to the lab and use microscopes and all kinds of technology that these crime scenes are able to use to see exactly what`s in there. They`re even looking at the bugs that are in the soil to see if there`s signs of decomposition that would bring these bugs in there. So it`s a very complicated process.

GRACE: Take a listen to what happened today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If Mr. Baez wants to make a -- turn this into a public records request, we have the ability to pick and choose photographs that we can waive the exemption on and we can provide them to Mr. Baez. What we will not do is, we will not release photographs of the skull of this little girl to then be broadcast all over the news before the body is has even been identified, before the parents have been notified.

We will pick photographs that we believe are relevant, that can help put markers in the ground and may give them sort of a guidepost to what that crime scene looks like. But that will be at our discretion, and we will do that as quickly and reasonably as possible under our ability to waive the exemption to the...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Also, we learned today that apparently still attached to the skull are long, light-colored hairs attached by duct tape.

Dr. Michael Bell joining us out of Palm Beach, the chief medical examiner there. How can that be, Doctor?

DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH COUNTY CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: How can what be?

GRACE: The fact that after all this time, the hair is still attached to the skull. Is it just because of the duct tape?

BELL: Most likely because, oftentimes, the hair is one of the first things that falls off with decomposition.

GRACE: Dr. Bell, how many bones are in the human body?

BELL: Well, there`s more than 200.

GRACE: So it`s completely reasonable that they are still looking for bones, Doctor?

BELL: Absolutely. And I can assure you, they`re going to be quite small.

GRACE: What do you mean by quite small?

BELL: Really small. They`ll be very hard to see.

GRACE: Two inches, a quarter inch?

BELL: Less than that. Yes, more like a quarter inch, especially in the hands and the feet.

GRACE: I want to go back out to the scene where the remains were discovered. Standing by is Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, who actually is searching -- had been searching for Caylee. Leonard, thank you for being with us. What have you observed today?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: You`re welcome. Well, basically, when we came out here this morning, you could see the sheriff`s crew and at least 30 FBI agents getting ready to go out there. And they`re proceeding much like somebody accused them of doing, which is an archaeological dig. In other words, they`ve got at least an area of 40,000 square feet, which, like Natisha said, it`s about an acre. And they`re going through it very methodical because they have to dig down three to four feet where the little animals that get up in there and take their bones and they take them off to the burrows, their nests.

And there are also -- a lot of kids have buried their parakeets and their cats back there, so there`s an assembly, an assortment of bones back there, and they have to sort through there and get the human bones from the animal bones. You would think it would be that easy, but as the doctor said, there are small bones there sometimes that have to be distinguished.

GRACE: To Nikki Pierce with WDBO. On a different note, is it true that grandparents George and Cindy Anthony are actually seeking legal immunity?

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: That`s what we`re hearing. Their new attorney, Brad Conway (ph), said in a press conference yesterday, after he read a letter from them seeking privacy, that he will try to seek immunity for the Anthonys, and that they admit to misspeaking in the past, and they won`t make misleading statements anymore.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The reason we stay here very long is, again, because they`re doing a meticulous job out there. They`re doing it very slowly, very methodically in order to make a determination and look at all of the items that are there. If there is something that needs attention, they will continue to provide attention to that. Again, the site will dictate how long they will be here, not the investigators.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When investigators found more bones in the woods, they decided it was time to slow down even more. They`re methodical, carefully sifting through soil, leaves and branches in the large wooded area behind Caylee Anthony`s home. And now they`ve invited more experts into the mix, including specialists in the area of insects and plants, to help determine what happened and how long the bones were here.

Investigators say the skull found here is already in an FBI lab, undergoing DNA analysis. An attorney for the Anthonys says the family is waiting for that absolute confirmation and praying, even though all signs point that it`s Caylee Anthony.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Apparently, grandparents George and Cindy Anthony seeking full immunity and want to cooperate with police. All along, we`d been told they were already cooperating.

Back to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. What can you tell us?

PETRIMOULX: About them -- one more time?

GRACE: Immunity. Immunity.

PETRIMOULX: Yes. We understand that that is what they`re seeking, and they have admitted to making false statements, and now they say they`re going to go back and be reinterviewed and this time, they won`t make conflicting statements.

But I have to add that yesterday, through their attorney, they had mentioned that they still believe that it was Zenaida Gonzalez that kidnapped the child. So if they go back and now are going to tell the truth to investigators, come clean and seek immunity, what will they be telling investigators? It`s going to be really interesting to see since just yesterday, they still are talking about Zenaida Gonzalez.

GRACE: OK, I need to get something straight for clarification. Out to Natisha Lance, who was in court today. She is at the location where the skull was found. Natisha, OK, one reporter says they admit to misleading statements. One says they admit to false statements. One says they admit to conflicting statements. What exactly was said?

LANCE: It was said that they were conflicting statements, admitted to conflicting statements, but in these new interviews that they will be giving, there will be no more conflicting statements.

GRACE: You are seeing video right now of the investigators, literally -- it looks like they`re mining -- panning for gold. They are sifting through buckets and buckets of dirt. They are looking at nearly an acre of land, trying to put together all the remains of this tiny skeleton, a skeleton that is widely believed to be that of little Caylee.

Let`s unleash the lawyers -- we are taking your calls live -- former prosecutor Holly Hughes out of Atlanta, veteran trial lawyer Raymond Giudice and defense attorney and author of "Death`s Witness" Paul Batista joining us out of New York.

Ray Giudice, the grandparents want immunity. What does it mean?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, it means there`s some good lawyering on their behalf going on. That lawyer has recognized that whether there are conflicting statements, confusing or false statements, he wants to prevent them from being indicted and potentially be accessories to this crime. He wants immunity, which means they will not be prosecuted for any statements they may have made.

GRACE: OK. Ray, when you go to the prosecutor hat in hand, asking for immunity, do you have to give the prosecutor a proffer of what you believe your clients can offer you? I mean, why should the state give immunity -- I mean, it`s the 11th hour.

GIUDICE: Right. Sure. Well, that`s what a good lawyer like Paul Batista would do. He`d have that level of credibility with the prosecutor and sit down and say...

GRACE: So is that a yes?

GIUDICE: That`s a yes. He`d make a proffer.

GRACE: OK. No need for sucking up tonight.

GIUDICE: All right, Nancy.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: We`re digging for the body of a little girl.

GIUDICE: Well, I`m trying to help him before you attack him.

GRACE: Batista, what about it?

PAUL BATISTA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think they`re doing absolutely the right thing in requesting immunity, Nancy. You know...

GRACE: But my question was...

BATISTA: Yes?

GRACE: ... do they have to give the prosecutor a proffer, in other words, a peek preview at what the client is going to say? I mean, why would the prosecutor just offer up immunity without knowing what they`re going to say?

BATISTA: Without a doubt. They have to have real and valuable information to exchange in order to get the benefit of the deal, and the deal in their favor would be immunity. But they have to provide something for it.

GRACE: OK. You know what? Maybe I`m the crazy one. I highly doubt it. But Holly Hughes, isn`t it a day late and a dollar short? We found the body, all right? Why are they coming now to try to help the police in the search for little Caylee?

HOLLY HUGHES, FORMER PROSECUTOR: That`s exactly right, Nancy. What they`re doing now is trying to cover their behinds because, so far, they have not been helpful. They have made conflicting statements. Cindy Anthony admitted that when they wanted the hairbrush for DNA from little Caylee, she was going to give them the wrong one, to the FBI. So what they`re trying to do now is look like they`re doing something helpful.

I don`t think they have anything to offer, quite frankly, Nancy. And what they`re doing is, via their attorney, they`re trying to say, Oh, all of a sudden, now we want to do something. It`s too late. They have the body. They`re going to be able to prove that their daughter was the killer of this child, like we have been saying all along. And so they are running scared, Nancy. That`s all there is to it.

GRACE: Well, listen, I want to get something straight, Holly. A lot of people have called in suggesting the grandparents had something to do with Caylee`s disappearance. I don`t believe that. I don`t believe that for a second.

HUGHES: (INAUDIBLE) Nancy.

GRACE: And also, when they publicly lash out at anyone, that suggests little Caylee is deceased or that the tot mom might be guilty -- you know what? When you`re grieving for your granddaughter and your daughter is about to go to the big house, you lash out at things you don`t want to hear.

HUGHES: Absolutely.

GRACE: And I find that not only is it normal, it`s very -- it`s hurtful because they are going through so much. But this whole immunity deal, that`s a whole `nother ball of wax.

We`re taking your calls. Out to Debra in Tennessee. Hi, Debra.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Real quick, before my question, I just want to say this is the saddest thing here at Christmas. This little girl should be sitting on Santa Claus`s knee instead of laying in a cold, dark autopsy room right now.

My question is, do you -- would it be possible for her little dream team that she`s gathered to take this long, long trail of lies that she`s come up with and turn it into an insanity defense?

GRACE: Oh, listen, Debra in Tennessee, where there`s a will, there`s a way. What about it, Ray Giudice?

GIUDICE: That`s right, Nancy. I agree completely. The caller is very insightful on this matter. This holiday time is just -- it`s a terrible situation. There`s no defense lawyer whose heart doesn`t go out to these people and for this terrible tragedy to this child.

GRACE: Well, I think what she`s asking about is, will they be able to make an insanity plea out of this crock of lies we`ve been hearing from the get-go, Ray?

GIUDICE: I don`t think so, Nancy. I don`t believe that.

GRACE: But will they try? Is that where they`re going?

GIUDICE: I don`t think so. I don`t think they`ve laid the foundation for it. I don`t think of they have the science for it.

GRACE: What else can they do, though, Paul Batista?

BATISTA: They can mount the Zenaida defense, if that`s the route they`re going to pursue, Nancy.

GRACE: Oh, the nanny defense. OK. I`ll be right back with Holly Hughes on that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve just been waiting for closure. I`ve wanted her found, of course, alive. But if this is what we`ve got, then you have to respect her. You have to respect the little child. And it`s just cruel.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The body, which evidence shows could be Caylee`s, was wrapped in something before it was stuffed into the trash bag. Casey`s parents, who are in seclusion, provided fingerprints, as did Casey`s brother, Lee, to help investigators exclude them as having any connection to the black trash bag holding the remains, which were found right down the street from the Anthony home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Natisha Lance, standing by there at the scene where the little child`s skull was found. Natisha, what are sources telling you about mom Casey`s reaction behind bars? We were told when she found out last Thursday remains had been found, she had to take a sedative.

LANCE: That`s correct, Nancy. And also, according to her attorney, Jose Baez, today, he said that she is not doing well. She is taking everything in stride. We did hear from the...

GRACE: Taking it in stride! Did you say she`s taking it in stride?

LANCE: Well, she`s dealing with it as best as possible. He said that he`s keeping her up to date with everything that is going on...

GRACE: OK. Quick...

LANCE: ... in terms of motions, court hearings...

GRACE: Just stop. Stop. She could have been in court today. Why wasn`t she?

LANCE: I would assume that it was probably on advisement from her attorney.

GRACE: OK. Is she on suicide watch?

LANCE: No, she`s not on suicide watch. She was on psychological observation, but she was taken off of that today.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Crime scene investigators chop away thick brush with machetes. In these woods, authorities have set up a grid. Just as archeologist might excavate a historical site, crime scene investigators are scooping up buckets of leaves and soil and then pouring them into these sifting tables, searching through the debris by hand.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a process that is going to go very slowly, very deliberately, in order to make sure that nothing is left untouched.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once again, Orange County chief medical examiner, Dr. Jan Garavaglia was out here conferring with the lead detectives. She was joined by anthropologists from UCF, as well as numerous experts on insects, trees and other pertinent fields.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They have an entomologist that`s going to be present, a botanist is going to be present, so what we`re doing is bringing all of the proper experts into a wooded area field where this body was recovered and we want to make sure that we do not -- leave any stone unturned.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Investigators and police, experts, just now packing up the scene where a child`s skull was found. Now apparently a trail of bones. They are sifting through dirt by the bucketful, looking for the bones of this little girl, trying to complete a full skeleton.

This, as grandparents, George and Cindy apparently ask for full immunity, and agree to fully cooperate with police. Is that true?

I want to go straight back out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Our sources state that the skull actually had long, light-colored hair attached to it, with duct tape wrapped around it. What do you know?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Originally, we thought that the duct tape -- or we had heard that the duct tape was just wrapped around the mouth, maybe to keep her quiet or something, to keep her from screaming or crying.

But we have since learned that reports say that it was actually wrapped all the way around the head with flesh stuck to the duct tape and also hair that was similar to the color and length of Caylee`s.

GRACE: Flesh still on the duct tape?

PETRIMOULX: That`s what reports are saying, Nancy. And I know it`s.

GRACE: What reports? What, what report?

PETRIMOULX: These are leaks that come to different news agencies from, you know, people that are at the scene, investigators. I mean we`ve been getting these leaks throughout the case. It`s hard to pinpoint exactly who`s saying them, but there are reports from investigators inside the scene.

GRACE: To Holly Hughes, former prosecutor -- Holly, you know, the caller from Tennessee, Deborah, just called in, talking about this child should be home at Christmas. And not on one of those metal tables you and I are familiar with in autopsy.

The -- this -- what I am hearing now is stunning. It`s very upsetting. That the child`s flesh may still be on the duct tape? And they`re not seeking the death penalty?

HOLLY HUGHES, PROSECUTOR: Nancy, it`s absolutely heart breaking. But from an evidentiary standpoint, we should be grateful as prosecutors that some of that evidence still remains. You`re absolutely right. You know, and I used to tell my juries that when I was doing a murder case.

GRACE: Well, I`m glad you can look at it that way, Holly. I`m glad you can look at it that way like, you know, you`re in a -- laboratory. But I`m not necessarily grateful that the child`s flesh is still on the duct tape.

HUGHES: Well, Nancy, it`s going to provide great evidentiary value. And ultimately, in order to get justice for Caylee, what we need is good, hard, scientific evidence. This way it`s not an eyewitness that they can say lied, it`s not somebody who got their facts wrong.

Science doesn`t lie, Nancy. And when you have to have such a terrible, terrible tragedy like this, you need to find the silver lining. You need to get justice for Caylee and what`s going to enable us to get that justice is this great forensic evidence that we`re recovering.

There is just no other way to look at it, Nancy. As a prosecutor, you know, you laugh or you cry. You have to find a way to get through these horrible, horrible emotional times and that is focusing on your case and providing the best evidence you can in order to get justice for this baby, who should be on Santa`s lap at Christmas.

GRACE: Back to Leonard Padilla there at the scene. Is that what your sources are telling you regarding the flesh on the duct tape?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, ON LOCATION WHERE CHILD`S REMAINS FOUND: Absolutely. And furthermore, if they can just retrieve a portion of a long -- a piece of a lung to see the nitrogen content, the oxygen content, the chloroform content, they can also evaluate whether it was chloroform or some other situation that led to her death.

I -- I know you disagree with me, but I still maintain the duct tape was placed there on the 18th, two days after the child was dead. She did it in order to make it look like a kidnapping. It was not used to cause the child`s death.

GRACE: To Dr. Michael Bell.

PADILLA: Chloroform was the (INAUDIBLE) to do that.

GRACE: . joining us out of Miami, is it possible that this much later, Doctor, there is still flesh?

DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH CO. CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, I think what they`re probably referring to is when the body decomposes, the outer layer of skin sloughs off. And I suspect that`s probably what they`re referring to.

GRACE: Is that possible? Is that -- does that sound reasonable to you after six months?

BELL: Yes. I mean, if they found hair -- again, hair is nothing more than appendage of the skin. So there may well be still pieces of skin. Again, it`s the outer layer of skin. It`s not the entire layer of skin.

GRACE: Joining us tonight from Vancouver is Professor Rolf Mathewes. He`s a biological sciences professor. He`s a forensic botanist at the Simon Fraser University.

Professor, thank you very much for being with us. Professor, what would an expert like yourself, an expert in forensic botany, play in a crime scene like this one?

PROF. ROLF MATHEWES, BIOLOGICAL SCIENCES FORENSIC BOTANIST, SIMON FRASER UNIV.: Well, there`s a number of options, but one of the first things on the cases that I`ve worked up here in Canada would be to look for something that was foreign to the scene, like plant material that was not native to the area where a body had been recovered, for example.

Something -- flowers from a garden or from house plant or leaves tracked in from a car mat that shouldn`t have been to that site, because that plant doesn`t grow there. That`s often included to make a link or a connection to another person, another site or something.

And secondly, when you go to a site like this, there`s a whole bunch of local site things that need to be done after you photograph it all at its original state. That can be very important, actually, before you start cutting a trail and then collecting evidence.

There`s all sorts of things that might relate to disturbance at the time, someone walked in to drop a body, they would break branches or stir up the vegetation in some way. If there was some sort of a grave dug, the turning and disturbance of soil will often cause local vegetation to change.

You will see young plants coming up that were not necessarily there initially, and they will actually (INAUDIBLE) or a grave area. See, I -- all I have is reports from CNN and watching your show. I have no direct connection to this case in any way. But I`ve worked on similar cases in Canada, and intrigued by some of the similarities.

GRACE: Professor Mathewes, quickly, I believe that plants found under water are different from those found above ground. And how could that in this case help determine when the body was placed there?

MATHEWES: Again, I don`t know the specifics of the case, but I understand the site was wet. But I suspect since Caylee disappeared, I think I believe sometime in mid June, I suspect it may have been dryer, and you know, that wetness may be part of the fall changeover and climate and weather.

GRACE: Right.

MATHEWES: So it`s very hard -- certainly water plants are going to be very different. And if water plants are intimately associated with it, that tells you something about when the water level was high enough to.

GRACE: Right. Right.

MATHEWES: . have aquatic plants there.

GRACE: With us is Professor Rolf Mathewes joining us from Vancouver.

Very quickly to the lines, Laura in North Carolina, hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I`m wondering how -- I can understand Jose Baez defending Casey pro bono. Everybody is entitled to a good defense. But how is she getting all of these high-profile attorneys and forensic specialists to defend her?

GRACE: Good question. You know, I asked Dr. Henry -- I asked Dr. Henry Lee that on the air and he told me he was working the case pro bono.

What about it, Nikki Pierce? It`s quite an assemblage of experts they`ve got.

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: It certainly is. And Jose Baez has not directly said one way or the other who is being paid and who isn`t, and how they`re being paid. We do keep hearing pro bono being tossed around a lot. Even Brad Conway, the grandparents` new attorney also said yesterday in a press conference that he was working for free. So we`re not hearing about how anything is being paid for.

GRACE: Very quickly, to John McKillop, former homicide detective at Glendale P.D. with Noble Security, joining us from L.A.

Question: the FBI have taken DNA samples from George and Cindy Anthony. Why?

JOHN MCKILLOP, FMR. HOMICIDE DET., GLENDALE P.D., V.P., NOBLE INC. SECURITY: Well, they have to assemble as much evidence as they can early on. It`s going to be either used to include or exclude everyone involved in the case.

GRACE: When will they release this crime scene?

MCKILLOP: You know, I hear timeframes all the time and I can tell you this. No one should be discussing timeframes. It will be -- it will be released when it`s done.

GRACE: With us, John McKillop, former homicide detective and now V.P. at Noble, Inc. Security out of L.A.

Very quickly, we are stopping to remember the mother of Tennessee friend of the show, Martha Dugger. She was 87 years old. Evelyn Addison. She was so proud of her six grandchildren, her children, her five great grandchildren.

She actually worked for the government during World War II on a secret project. It turned out to be the atomic bomb. A few years ago, she was diagnosed with Alzheimer`s, and she battled it bravely, to the end.

We miss you, Evelyn, and our thoughts and prayers to you and your family at this time of sorrow.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It almost never happens. A murder victim and crime scene discovered and processed weeks after a defendant is already indicted in the murder. But that`s what defense attorneys Jose Baez and Jose Garcia are dealing with as they try to get the evidence to their team of experts before its value is lost.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: We are in a situation where it is no longer a crime scene. It has become more of an excavation site.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Judge Stan Strickland denied the motions for immediate access to photos, videos, and drawings of the scene and to block the medical examiner from doing more tests that may alter the remains.

Strickland also suggested the defense experts` visit to the crime scene Saturday may have just motivated authorities to be more thorough and take more time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) you have time clock on an investigation and if law enforcement doesn`t do an absolutely exhaustive job, then defense counsel is going to argue that his investigation was completely shoddy and incompetent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The judge just hours ago denying the defense motions for their being present there on the scene while the excavation is taking place for their representatives being at the FBI crime lab while the tests are being done. A myriad of requests made in court today by the defense.

Casey Anthony had the opportunity to be in court today, but declined to do so.

We are taking your calls live. Out to Jennifer in Maryland. Hi, Jennifer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. First I want to thank you for following this story so closely. It`s really heart-breaking.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, has Casey ever given a description of this Zanny, the pretend nanny, at all?

GRACE: Oh, yes.

Out to Natisha Lance, what is the description she gave of Zanny, the nanny, the alleged kidnapper?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: She said that she was about 5`7", 140 pounds, brown hair, brown eyes. This brown hair was curly, but it had been straightened and previously in her interview she has said that this nanny was biracial, African-American and Hispanic.

GRACE: I want to talk about the fact that the grandparents are -- George and Cindy Anthony, are apparently requesting full immunity.

Natisha, you stated that their representative says they have given conflicting statements in the past. But they`re still sticking with the nanny did it? How can that be?

LANCE: Yes. This is according to their attorney, Brad Conway. He is saying that they still believe that Zenaida Gonzalez is involved with this investigation, and with the missing of Caylee Anthony.

Now, he also said that he is going to be meeting with prosecutors to seek immunity for the Anthonys and whatever conflicting statements that they have had in the past, they will not be making these conflicting statements in the future when they meet with investigators.

GRACE: But, to Dr. Janet Taylor, psychiatrist, joining us from New York, can they be trusted, Doctor? Because not that they`re intentionally trying to hurt the investigation, but they are intentionally trying to protect their daughter.

DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Well.

GRACE: And do you blame them? I -- don`t necessarily blame them. But how can they one day say nanny -- the nanny did it, and the next day say we want to be straight with cops, and PS, we want full immunity.

TAYLOR: Well, I think there are a couple factors here. The first is they are parents and as parents`, their first job and primary job is to protect their daughter, and then they`re also facing the loss of their grandchild in a very just horrible way. And it is a tragedy.

But secondly, this has been a grueling process, six months. I mean, the only thing that`s probably been able to keep them going on, facing the media, looking for Caylee, is the fact that they believe that someone else took their granddaughter.

If they didn`t believe that, I would think it would be impossible for them to sustain the level of energy that they have had.

GRACE: You know, Doctor, I think you`re absolutely correct. And I`m being an armchair shrink now, but they have, even when they`re lashing out at those of us that suggest little Caylee was deceased, and that the tot mom is responsible. Even when they`re lashing out, they seem real and genuine, and acting out of love for their daughter. But at this juncture, they have got to realize that they have been misled.

Doctor, will they ever really believe it?

TAYLOR: Well I think, you know, when the technology comes in and when the forensics come in, if, in fact, it is little Caylee, then I think they`re going to have to believe it and try to figure out exactly what happened to their granddaughter.

And if their daughter is involved, that will definitely change their whole perspective and their demeanor.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who has searched for little Caylee, he is joining us there at the scene where the skull was found.

Leonard, something in that bag, in that black trash bag, made police go back into the night, into the wee hours of the morning, searching the Anthony home, keeping the Anthonys from coming home from California to their own home. They had to go to a hotel.

What are your sources telling you was in that bag? It wasn`t just the bag itself.

PADILLA: No, no. It was the bag, plus the plumber`s tape, plus the linen pillow case, a sheet that she was wrapped in. They needed to.

GRACE: Now how do you know it was a -- how do you know that, that it was a pillow case? Or a sheet?

PADILLA: Because they picked up pillow cases and sheets at the house to compare. The other thing I want to bring to your attention, have you heard the song that the little girl sings about.

GRACE: Yes.

PADILLA: OK. Do you know what the word is that she`s -- that is hard to understand? It`s not "Don`t take my sunshine away." It`s "Don`t take my nana away." That was the nickname that she had for Cindy, so which is a very sad thing. But that`s what she`s saying.

Now here`s another thing. Earlier in one of the recordings there at the jail Casey says that when they find the little girl, she`s going to be able to explain a lot of things as to where she has been and things of that nature.

This little girl, when they get her in that lab in Quantico, she is going to speak volumes louder than Casey ever thought. She is going to give up liquids, in the lungs possibly, nitrogen, oxygen, she`s going to give cause of death, when, where and how. She`s going to speak volumes.

GRACE: Back out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Conflicting reports tonight as to whether flesh was actually attached to the duct tape, wrapped around the child`s head. What can you tell me about pillow cases or linens being found in that bag?

PETRIMOULX: I know that pillow cases were taken from the Anthony house when they went back and served that latest search warrant on the house, was something that was taken along with vacuum cleaners and some chemicals from the house.

And you know, what I`ve talked to people that said that that was possibly for is that if there was hair found in that bag, they may have been trying to take pillow cases from the house to try to recover hair from the house so they can compare those.

If you remember, there may be some discrepancies over the hair that they originally recovered from the house because Cindy may have gave (sic) them the wrong brush.

GRACE: Right. Right.

To Liann in Texas, hi, Liann.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, since the bones have been found, nobody has mentioned about how she looked up how to properly break a neck. And yet they say the duct tape was first around the mouth, now they`re saying it was around the whole head.

Well, that`s my question. My daughters and I keep wondering why haven`t they mentioned about her breaking the neck.

GRACE: Well, apparently, they`ll have to get the bones to the crime lab to determine whether the neck was actually broken. Isn`t that correct, Dr. Bell?

BELL: Yes, although the neck is fairly flexible on a child. And it may be impossible to see any fractures themselves. You can still break it and not leave any fractures.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: We miss her. We love her. I miss her, I love her dearly, and I want nothing more than for her to come home and to be safe and to be where she belongs with her family.

It`s obvious that we`ll stop at nothing to get her back. Because I know in my heart, I know in my gut, I know with every ounce of my being, that we will be with her again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to the lawyers. Holly Hughes, Ray Giudice, Paul Batista.

In a nutshell, Paul Batista, we understand that while the grand parents George and Cindy submitted to fingerprinting, that brother Lee wouldn`t. He only gave in when issued a subpoena. Explain.

PAUL BATISTA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "DEATH`S WITNESS": Well, the government has the right to fingerprints and hair samples and DNA. And you can voluntarily turn it over, Nancy, or it can be compelled through a subpoena, and apparently the brother waited for that to happen.

GRACE: And my question, I`ll repeat it to Holly Hughes, why? Why not? If you are willing to cooperate and you want to help find your niece, why do you insist on a subpoena?

HUGHES: He`s not willing to cooperate. He is furious at the authorities for arresting his sister. He is still acting out. This is the man who went out and ripped down a memorial to his 3-year-old niece.

GRACE: Well, you know, on that.

HUGHES: Why would he do that?

GRACE: On that -- I don`t know but I see that as acting more out of grief. But the fingerprint thing -- and very quickly, Ray Giudice, these tapes, if this is little Caylee, show her leading her family down the garden path all these months.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy, look, it`s going to be game over on this case pretty soon. Not to be frivolous. The technology and the science is going to come back. There`s a real reason why the parents are -- the grandparents are seeking immunity.

GRACE: You know what, Ray, on this count, I have to agree with you.

Let`s stop and remember Army Specialist Jason Cox, 21, Elyria, Ohio, killed Iraq. Loved to work with his hands. Rebuilt a Mitsubishi with his buddies before shipping out. Wanted to become a diesel mechanic. Planned to be married.

Leaves behind parents Gregory and Kathy, brothers, Matthew and Ryan, also active in the military.

Jason Cox, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And happy birthday to one of our superstars, Rachel. She ducked out on us yesterday to avoid this close-up.

Happy birthday, sweet girl.

Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0812/16/ng.01.html
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Behind Every Lie is a Clue to the Truth
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