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NANCY GRACE

Casey`s On-Line Searches for Chloroform Recipes

Aired October 22, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 18 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell tonight. Just released, police reveal the suspicious computer searches were actually for on-line recipes, recipes for chloroform at the time little Caylee goes missing. That`s right, tot mom Casey Anthony on line, looking up chloroform recipes. Home-made chloroform, can you imagine? Significant amounts of that powerful chemical solution discovered by the FBI in mom Casey`s car trunk.

And tonight, the stunning theory emerges that mom Casey actually drove 11 days with Caylee`s body in the trunk of her car, this as reports from inside the investigation reveal the crime scene believed to involve the pool, the pool in the Anthonys` back yard.

In the face of murder one charges, grandparents George and Cindy go on national television to announce Caylee is alive, the Anthonys yet to make one visit to the jailhouse or speak to her by phone since her arrest for Caylee`s murder, the Anthonys claiming leads still pouring in, even setting up their own private tip line.

And more money lands in mom Casey`s jail account, clearing the way for high-end snacks like crabmeat and shrimp cocktail, makeup, shoes, lingerie, hair and skin care products, all for her private jail cell. Tonight, as the search for Caylee intensifies, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news in the case of missing 3-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Orlando station WFTV is reporting that someone was researching how to make chloroform on Casey Anthony`s home computer around the time Caylee went missing. Lab tests have shown high levels of chloroform in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car, and authorities believe evidence suggests that Caylee is likely dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why haven`t Casey Anthony`s own parents visited her in the slammer, especially if they think Casey had nothing to do with the daughter`s disappearance? This morning, her parents, George and Cindy Anthony -- they told the "Today" show it`s because Caylee is still alive.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: I know what I know. Caylee is not dead. (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We do have returns that indicate human decomposition was present and located in the defendant`s vehicle. We had higher hopes of finding her alive, and that hope has somewhat diminished.

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s (SIC) car is not my granddaughter!

CINDY ANTHONY: Continue to look for Caylee. She is not dead!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) not telling you where her daughter is?

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: Correct.

They just want Caylee back. That`s all they`re worried about right now.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, the mystery surrounding a gorgeous young mom of two, vanishing after a suspicious fire at the family home, North Carolina, Kelly Morris (ph) last seen by her husband and children, her car abandoned just one mile away, purse, keys, cell phone inside the car. What happened to 28-year-old Kelly Morris?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The sheriff says Kelly Morris was last seen by her husband and two children at her house. Morris`s house was burned the day after she was last seen. Authorities ruled the fire an arson. They have named her husband, Scott Morris, a person of interest in her disappearance. Morris`s car and some personal belongings found a short distance away. Since then, hundreds have searched for Morris. Newly-released search warrants indicate investigators are now looking at Scott and Kelly Morris`s bank records. The warrants also show the couple had arguments where Scott punched holes in the walls and once threw a computer out the window.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sure there`s people probably are afraid. You know, I -- for whatever reason -- I don`t know for what reason. Who they`re afraid or what they`re afraid of, we`re not sure of. But we want to get Kelly. We want to know where Kelly is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Morris has not said anything publicly since his wife disappeared. Her family members say he has not helped with the search.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stunning developments in the case of missing 3- year-old toddler Caylee Anthony. Orlando station WFTV is reporting that someone was on Casey Anthony`s home computer looking up recipes for the deadly chemical chloroform around the time Caylee went missing. Police have already said that evidence shows a high level of chloroform in the trunk of the tot mom`s vehicle.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The fact is, not one family member has visited Casey in jail since her arrest on murder charges. Child neglect charges were dropped, so that means, obviously, they`re focusing in on the murder charge. But yet in the interview on the "Today" show, George and Cindy Anthony basically insist little Caylee`s still alive. They even blame the media and police for pushing some conspiracy against their daughter.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Obviously, you`re doing things to help us find your daughter, right? And I want you to tell me how lying to us is getting to that end. How is lying to us helping to find your daughter faster?

CASEY ANTHONY: It isn`t.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then why would you do that?

CASEY ANTHONY: Saying I don`t know and telling you that I just dropped her off, and that was the last time that I`ve seen her -- even starting with that, everybody else is, like, Well, and what happened after that?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our ultimate goal is to find Caylee. We`re going to do everything we can. We`ve been doing everything we can to find Caylee. I need you on my side.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: I want to be on your side.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Regardless whether she`s alive or passed away, we need to find Caylee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Kathi, we all knew that there were searches for chloroform on tot mom Casey Anthony`s home computer, her laptop, to be specific. But recipes for chloroform? That`s the first I`m hearing of that.

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: That`s right. I guess we were under the impression she was looking to buy it, but what we found out was she was actually looking at how to make it. And we found more than a million Web sites on line to give you the instructions to make it. You can make it with household chemicals that you probably have in your house right now.

GRACE: To our producer, Natisha Lance. We had you look it up. How do you make chloroform? How difficult is it?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: It`s very easy, Nancy. You can use bleach or pool shock (ph) to make it, acetone, as well as lots of ice. And there`s another way you can make it, too, with alcohol or hypochloride.

GRACE: OK. Part of your answer cut out. Repeat. How do you make chloroform?

LANCE: There`s two different ways you can make it. One of them is with bleach or pool shock, acetone and ice.

GRACE: Wait, wa-wait. Bleach or what?

LANCE: Pool shock?

GRACE: OK. Go ahead.

LANCE: Acetone and ice. And the other way to make it is with alcohol and hypochloride.

GRACE: Now, how do you get all those ingredients? How difficult is it to get those ingredients?

LANCE: It`d be very easy to get those ingredients, Nancy. You could go to...

GRACE: OK, let`s go through them again. What are they?

LANCE: Bleach, which you could get...

GRACE: OK. Easy to do.

LANCE: ... from any convenience store. Very easy to do. Acetone, not the kind you use for nail polish remover, but just regular straight acetone.

GRACE: Where would you find that?

LANCE: You could find that at a local supply store, as well as a drug store.

GRACE: Go ahead.

LANCE: And then ice, which you can get from your refrigerator at home.

GRACE: But wait a minute. You named a lot of other ingredients to start with.

LANCE: Bleach or pool shock were the first time, and then acetone and then ice. That`s one method.

GRACE: That`s it?

LANCE: That`s it.

GRACE: That`s it?

LANCE: That`s it.

GRACE: Out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. You know, Mike, when we first learned of these computer searches on tot mom`s laptop for chloroform, the defense bar did a somersault, claiming there would be a receipt -- there would be evidence of an on-line purchase of chloroform. Now all I have to do is trot down to the Duane Reed (ph) and I, too, can make chloroform?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Down to Duane Reed or to Wal-Mart, Nancy, to get that acetone. Absolutely. It`s not very hard to make at all. But one of the things -- it`s very, very -- you`ve got to be very, very careful because it can turn into some other -- other, as I call it ethyl-methyl bad stuff, you know, such as phosgene, if it`s allowed to sit in the sunlight for too long, if it`s not cool. I mean, it`s very unstable stuff, Nancy. It`s not something that you want to play with. And you know, but you can get all kinds of different strengths of it, depending on how you mix it.

GRACE: And let`s go to our psychotherapist, Dr. Stacy Kaiser joining us out of LA. Let`s just step back for a moment. Forget how easy we now know it is to make chloroform. What mom is on line getting a recipe for chloroform? I mean, I`ve looked up chicken pot pie and shepherd`s pie and Waldorf salad, but chloroform? Who`s on line looking at the recipe for chloroform? Help me, Doctor.

STACY KAISER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I mean, this is a mother who was desperate, who was probably feeling helpless and hopeless, and was trying to figure out a way that she could do something to her daughter without being too hurtful and harmful and bloody.

GRACE: Now, OK, I`m not quite sure what you mean, how chloroform fits into your theory of not too hurtful. You`re talking about a 2-year-old little girl -- 2-year-old girl, chloroform, really shouldn`t be in the same sentence under any circumstances.

Speaking of what you just said, other and more unusual theories have emerged. What about it, Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO? The theories as to what may have happened to little Caylee are now being revealed.

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Yes, one of the theories was actually printed in "The Globe," and that states that on June 15, that Casey got in a fight with her parents. She left her house and wanted to go to Tony Lazzaro (ph), her boyfriend`s, house. He said that she could come, but not with Caylee. So the theory is that she placed Caylee in the trunk with a chloroform rag close to her, and basically, overnight that she succumbed and died from the chloroform, then actually drove around for about 11 days with the body in the trunk.

GRACE: Oh, good lord in heaven!

PETRIMOULX: Yes, there`s another theory also from "The National Enquirer," and in that one, they theorize that Caylee drowned in a pool, and her decomposing body mixed with pool water basically in the trunk of the car, formed the chloroform that was eventually tested for.

GRACE: To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice. OK, I know, Koby (ph), that you`re already hired by the defense. You`re going to have a tough time convincing a jury that chloroform formed naturally in the back of the trunk, especially in those heavy, heavy, dense -- the density in which it was found.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, first of all, Nancy, in one of our prior interviews, I had mentioned that you can combine bleach and alcohol and inadvertently manufacture chloroform. What we really don`t know are the levels of chloroform. We are hearing trace amounts...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, right there! Right there! BS-o-meter is going off. How do you inadvertently mix bleach with acetone, Koby? Have you done that by accident?

KOBILINSKY: I said bleach and alcohol -- beer, wine, liquor.

GRACE: And how would you accidentally do that?

KOBILINSKY: Oh, very simple. You could have a spill...

GRACE: Really? Have you ever done it by accident?

KOBILINSKY: I don`t know. I hope -- I don`t think so. But it`s possible.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re focusing on finding Caylee. I will not come to you and tell you anything but that unless I have definitive proof...

CINDY ANTHONY: But are you looking for a live Caylee or a dead Caylee, Gary?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re looking for Caylee, Cindy, because we don`t know where Caylee is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: The trunk was open. The windows were rolled down to what I assume ventilate the horrible smell that I had just smelled for the first time.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: It was an overpowering smell. I`ll admit that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It hits you like a wave. Whatever it was, it was very potent.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First glance, you thought this may be the smell of a body or decomposition?

GEORGE ANTHONY: It`s a possibility, yes. I mean, it`s a possibility. I mean, maybe my daughter ran over something.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All we had to do is Google "How do you make chloroform," and we found more than a million Web sites with instructions. On the first one we found, page one had an explicit warning about chloroform`s dangers, calling the chemical extremely dangerous and unpredictable and warning never to allow children to come near chloroform. FBI lab tests show high levels of chloroform in the trunk of Casey`s car, where investigators say Caylee`s body had been. And there was a mysterious stain in the trunk, along with Caylee`s hairs and dirt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s just another piece of circumstantial evidence that`s going to form the chain.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Stunning theories emerge as to what little Caylee went through just before her death, a death that is now part of a multi-count indictment handed down by a Florida grand jury. Now we learn that those on-line searches regarding chloroform were actually how-to searches, recipes for the sometimes deadly sedative.

We`re taking your calls live. First let`s unleash the lawyers, Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, John Burris. Susan Moss, how do you explain to a jury that while your client can`t get off her duff and go get a job, you know, go flip burgers at McDonald`s, just do something instead of sucking Mommy and Daddy dry, she`s got time to look up a recipe for chloroform?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: I have no idea. She was searching for chloroform. What, was she remaking a Hitchcock film? There is no reasonable theory why she was searching how to make chloroform and then chloroform ends up in her trunk, along with the smell and decomposition of a dead body.

GRACE: Renee, how do you explain the search for this recipe? You want to pin it on Grandmommy and Granddaddy?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, first you`re going to have to show that she was searching for the chloroform, not somebody else.

GRACE: Well, that`s what I just said, Renee. I said there`s only three people to blame it on, the grandparents or Casey Anthony.

ROCKWELL: You can`t -- you can`t prove that nobody else got on that computer, Nancy.

GRACE: OK. So your theory is the "SOD" -- some other dude -- did it. OK, I guess somebody snuck into the house and got on her laptop. Good try. Burris, come on, please throw us a bone.

JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I`m not going to deny that she may have done it. I don`t think that`s the way the case is going to turn. The question that I would see if I`m the defense lawyer, if that`s there, I think the theory is that she wasn`t trying to kill the kid. She wasn`t trying to kill him (SIC), so then the issue is, what kind of homicide is this, once you get down to it? And in my...

GRACE: So if she wasn`t trying to kill the kid, what was she doing?

BURRIS: Well, maybe she was just trying to keep the kid sedated while she was going to have fun that particular night.

GRACE: Wouldn`t that be a felony murder?

(CROSSTALK)

BURRIS: ... felony murder or not. I think it might be an involuntary manslaughter.

GRACE: Oh, hold on! Whoa-whoa, whoa-whoa, whoa-whoa, whoa-whoa! Wait! Wait!

BURRIS: And let me finish. Involuntary manslaughter. And based upon the fact that she did all the cover-up, that might escalate it up further. But in terms of looking at her intent at the time this homicide took place, I don`t think this is a first degree murder, even if she was looking for chloroform or not.

GRACE: Well, let me take Mr. John Burris, who is a veteran trial lawyer in the San Francisco area, to school.

BURRIS: Oh, I`ve been to school.

GRACE: Felony murder -- refresher course.

BURRIS: Well, you know...

GRACE: Felony -- uh! Uh! Uh! Felony murder is when you commit a felony. It could be rape. It could be aggravated assault. It could be a robbery. And during the commission of that felony, intentional or not, a death occurs. If she assaulted this child with chloroform and the child died, intentionally or not, that is felony murder. Agree or disagree, Mr. Burris?

BURRIS: I disagree with that. I do think that you have issues here, but it might be more of a negligence activity here than that.

GRACE: Negligence?

BURRIS: I don`t think there`s an intent to kill this kid. And I don`t think...

GRACE: She negligently...

BURRIS: ... there is intent to commit a fraud or not.

GRACE: ... looked up the recipe...

BURRIS: I think you have negligent conduct...

GRACE: ... for chloroform.

BURRIS: ... on her part. And then you go from there. I mean, if you say it`s not malice aforethought, or your theory is felony murder, that`s it. I`m not so sure that it`s necessarily felony murder. I think you`ve got more of an involuntary, maybe a second degree, if you say it was reckless disregard for human life. I`m just trying to figure out -- I`m the defense lawyer. I`m trying to figure out how I`m going to work this thing.

GRACE: OK. You know, I`m going to take you at your word. I understand. You`re just looking for an answer for Casey Anthony. I get it.

BURRIS: Absolutely.

GRACE: I get it. Let`s go out to Tim Miller and Leonard Padilla. As you all know, Tim Miller, the head of Texas Equusearch, not only has had huge success in finding not only those people that have passed away, but living -- living people who have gone missing. Also Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter, who is now joining in the search for little Caylee. Both gentlemen with us tonight.

Tim Miller, are you ready to tell me straightforwardly where you intend to start your search?

TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Yes. We`re -- conditions are right for the search now. The water`s down. It`s cooler outside.

GRACE: Where? Where? Where?

MILLER: The area that we could not finish up before, where the cell tower activity was.

GRACE: Ah, yes. Out near the airport. Everyone, you`re seeing just a few of the many, many people that Tim Miller`s group, Texas Equusearch -- all volunteers, I might add -- have recovered.

To Leonard Padilla, what about it? What makes you so interested in that particular area?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, on the -- on the 27th, I believe -- and I`m pretty sure that Rob`s correct -- she walked down from her boyfriend`s house, got in the car, drove to her mom`s, made a phone call to J.C. Penny, and then she spent 18 to 20 minutes in the cell tower area that Tim`s talking about. So if that`s where he leads us, that`s where we`re going to search. And we`ve got a lot of people out of the bail bond industry that have responded very positively to the search.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Tell everybody to keep looking for her. She`s alive, and we need everybody calling in those tips.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have hope right now?

CINDY ANTHONY: Absolutely. Just as much as I did last week.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: There`s still a chance that she`s out there living and breathing. All I`m asking is that everybody give Caylee that chance and actually continue to look for her. So until they can prove to me 100 percent otherwise, and until all of the evidence comes in and I actually know what the evidence is and satisfy in my mind that she`s not out there, I am not going to let her go as long as I have a breath in my body.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Just a few hours ago, the Anthony family, grandparents Cindy and George, appeared on NBC`s "Today" show, insisting that little Caylee is alive. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I just think it`s another one of their tactics to just delay the disclosure. You know, we had a motion a couple weeks ago to allow us to look at the evidence, and I think it`s just another tactic to slow us down looking at that evidence.

Every bit of evidence could be, you know, brought in a court of law, and also could have some expert witnesses disprove it. So you know, we`ll go to trial, if we have to do that. But I believe we`re going to find Caylee before that.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I describe my daughter -- I can describe her in a lot of different ways, and the best way is to say she`s a great mom. She`s been a great daughter. She always will be a great daughter and a great mom. I mean, I`m not going to give up on my daughter for any reason.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have never in a quiet moment, the two of you, sat there and go, Is it possible, just possible, that we are in denial here?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Absolutely not.

CINDY ANTHONY: Absolutely not.

GEORGE ANTHONY: We`re not going to give up to this find this little girl. We`re never going to give up. My granddaughter`s alive. I have every belief and feeling inside. With all the tips we`re still getting -- we even got some tips, you know, just prior to coming up here. I mean, there`s just too many things that up that our granddaughter`s still out there, and we`re going to find her, no matter what.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That was George and Cindy Anthony on the "Today" show, insisting Caylee is alive.

To Dr. Stacy Kaiser in LA. They really believe that. They really believe it, don`t they.

KAISER: I mean, I think they do. But then again, you know, once you give up hope, what do you really have left?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there has been a dead body in the damn car.

There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots it stunk so bad.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: There was an overpowering smell on the deck.

C. ANTHONY: There was no odor in the car when it was towed down to the towing company. No odor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have forensic evidence that had been returned to us regarding the vehicle. Preliminary information indicates that there is decomposition in that vehicle from a human body.

C. ANTHONY: Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.

G. ANTHONY: Maybe my daughter ran over something.

C. ANTHONY: Air samples don`t mean anything. If we continue to, you know, look at evidence that hasn`t been verified, you guys are going to put Caylee in a coffin because eventually something is going to happen to her if we don`t find her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They found hair samples in the car that are similar to the length and kind of Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The information we`ve got back from the FBI lab indicating that -- you know, that she was in the trunk of that car, and she is dead, certainly is information we take very seriously.

G. ANTHONY: The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s car is not my grand daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: "Eyewitness News" legal analyst, Bill Schaeffer, says it`s significant, because if Casey made the chloroform as opposed to buying it, she could have been trying to cover her tracks. Buying it would have generated some sort of record.

BILL SCHAEFFER, EYEWITNESS NEWS LEGAL ANALYST: This way, certainly, she can argue, all right, I was interested in learning to make chloroform but I never did, or that`s why you smelled chloroform in the trunk area, because I was experimenting in making it.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Record or not, the jury would be faced with a compromising question for Casey.

SCHAEFFER: Why would you need to make chloroform and for what purpose?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony, on the "Today" show, just this morning, insisting that little Caylee is alive, and also refuting much of what the media has said.

They insisted that photos of Casey Anthony partying up and down a stripper pole, claimed that they were before little Caylee went missing.

But the photos that have been shown over and over were actually taken on June the 20th. Police believe little Caylee is missing the day after Father`s Day that would have been around the 15th or the 16th.

The other photos that have been shown throughout the media are also after little Caylee went missing. Many of them are.

Speaking of the "Today" show, take a listen to what George and Cindy Anthony had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

C. ANTHONY: You`re kind of prisoners in your own home. Those people, they are very misguided, and it`s very unfortunate that, you know, if they have that energy and they want to, you know -- if they truly believe that Caylee is deceased, then they should put the energy into someone like -- helping similar what Texas Equusearch and actually looking for, you know, on the ground for her.

I point blank asked the sheriff`s department even weeks ago, you know, is it 100 percent? And they said no, there`s no evidence it`s 100 percent. So, I mean, I don`t know any child that doesn`t deserve a chance to be looked for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, that was George and Cindy Anthony on the "Today" show this morning.

Mike, have you ever had to tell a victim`s family your little girl is dead? Have you ever had to do that? Is it better to tell a lie that brings a smile?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: No. No.

GRACE: Or the truth that brings the tear? Would it be so wrong for police to say to them, you know what? Yes, the cadaver dogs hit on the car, yes, we found evidence of decomposition, but we haven`t found a body, so, you know what, maybe she is still alive.

Is it possible they told them that?

BROOKS: I seriously doubt it, Nancy. With the amount of that evidence they have -- the decomposing body, of the hair, of the chloroform and everything else, and now the indictment of Casey Anthony -- there is no way that they`re going to say, oh, we`re holding out hope.

You know, they said early on, they said early on, yes, possibly. But you know, I don`t mean to be flipping, Nancy, but, you know, I held out a little bit of hope for George. You know, but Cindy all along, as I said, about, you know, drinking the Casey Kool-Aid, it sounds like both of them have taken a big gulp of it, Nancy, which is.

GRACE: I don`t know. You know what, Mike.

BROOKS: You know and I know they`re parents.

GRACE: After I had the twins, it would be very difficult for me not to believe something that they would tell me. You know, I would want to believe.

BROOKS: Sure.

GRACE: I would move heaven and earth to make what they said be the truth in my own mind. I understand where the Anthonys are coming from.

BROOKS: Sure.

GRACE: Let`s go to the lines, Patricia in Florida. Hi, Patricia.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Hi, Nancy, first of all, I wish every child had an advocate like you and (INAUDIBLE) in their corner.

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you so much. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m just curious, they are so adamant thinking that this child -- you know, alive, they had the high hope, but low probability. Should -- is there a possibility that they have evidence that they`re withholding, and if that could be proven that they do, could they be prosecuted?

GRACE: To Kathi Belich with WFTV, many people have suggested that George and Anthony -- George and Cindy Anthony should also be charged. I disagree.

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: I think what might be going on here is that it`s possible that they are telling investigators one thing on an official level, and saying something else on a public level. And I think that`s difficult for people to navigate. I don`t know that anyone thinks it was anything illegal.

GRACE: What about it, Leonard Padilla?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: They`re confused in their own minds as to what they want to believe. Just a week ago, I got a document that says that they just -- Cindy formed a new nonprofit organization to accept funds for the search.

And while we were back there one night, George was telling his friend, the -- that was a cop also up in Warren, Ohio, that he was tired of living the lie. He couldn`t take it anymore. And that was just back in the latter part of August.

So they know the child is dead. They`re just trying to make the best of it and cope with it. And here`s a way to possibly pick up some defense money for their daughter by forming a -- a nonprofit, and taking in funds, because some of the other organizations have been found to be taking funds and misusing them.

And now they`re faced with -- the reality that their daughter has been charged with murder, and what are we going to do? Well, the next best thing is to keep her -- keep hope alive, have people send money in, and the only thing that`s doing is taking it away from Tim Miller, and -- and the real search.

GRACE: You know what, I do not believe -- I do not believe that George and Cindy Anthony would take hard-working people`s money under the guise of searching for Caylee and then just pump it into Casey Anthony`s defense fund.

I just don`t believe that. I believe them. They really have chosen to believe this little girl is alive. Hey, they are not responsible for this child`s disappearance and death, according to police. So they are not being prosecuted.

To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, why have they not visited tot mom Casey Anthony since the murder charges came down?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: I mean, the reason what I would think is because everything that they say to her, whether it be video conference or over the phone, ends up being public.

And then, you know, on this show and throughout the country, dissect every little thing they say, and, you know, a lot of things that have come out through those conversations have painted Casey in a bad light.

So you have to think that maybe the lawyer instructed Casey and the parents.

GRACE: Right.

PETRIMOULX: . to just stop making those calls.

GRACE: Well, this is what they had to say just a few hours ago on that topic.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

C. ANTHONY: Casey has asked the focus to be on her daughter, Caylee, and not to be on us going to -- it`s a media frenzy every time we go to the jail, every time, you know -- you know, there is an interview or whatever.

The focus is in the wrong direction. She wants us to focus on her daughter. She desperately wants us to find Caylee. I mean, she`s a grieving mom. And who`s to say, you know, how you react when someone takes someone that you love?

I mean, we`ve been criticized how we`ve acted. There is no handbook on how to act in a circumstance like this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s Cindy Anthony on the NBC "Today" show, speaking out about why they have not visited behind bars.

To Shawna in Wisconsin. Hi, Shawna.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Great to talk to you.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, first of all, I just want to say thank you so much for all you do. My mom and I watch you every night.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is this: why all of the search teams waiting until the 8th of November to restart the.

GRACE: Good question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: . restart the search, instead of doing it now?

GRACE: What about it, Tim Miller? Why wait until November 8th?

TIM MILLER, HEAD OF TEXAS EQUUSEARCH, SEARCHING FOR MISSING TOT CAYLEE: Well, November 8th is the weekend that we can get everybody together. We`re going to have several thousand people. And, again, the water was high before -- you know, November is turning into fall, vegetation is going to start dying off.

Our resources are going to be far more valuable than they have been. And we know that if Caylee is out there and not alive, she is not going to be anymore dead then than she is now and the chance of finding her would be better.

GRACE: OK. So basically, you are amassing people from all around the country to come search on the 8th.

To Sherry in Mississippi, hi, Sherry. Hi, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: Hi. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, could Caylee have been chloroformed and then drowned, and has the hair sample has been checked -- has the hair sample been checked for chlorine?

GRACE: To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, can hair samples be checked for chlorine?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Absolutely, they can. And you know, these theories about drowning -- this comes from the "Globe," not a very definitive place to study this.

GRACE: Well, and also the fact that cadaver dogs were hitting in the backyard of the Anthony home where there is an above-ground pool. Remember that?

KOBILINSKY: I do. But we really aren`t convinced that decomposition is human origin.

GRACE: Oh, so you don`t trust the dog. You think the dog is in on the conspiracy.

KOBILINSKY: Quite possibly. Dog might have found a friend, some kind of scent that turned it on.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: "Eyewitness News" legal analyst Bill Schaeffer says it`s significant, because if Casey made the chloroform, as opposed to buying it, she could have been trying to cover her tracks. Buying it would have generated some sort of record.

SCHAEFFER: This way, certainly, she can argue, all right, I -- I was interested in learning to make chloroform. But I never did. Or that`s why you smelled chloroform in the trunk area, because I was experimenting by -- in making it.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Record or not, the jury would be faced with a compromising question for Casey.

SCHAEFFER: Why would you need to make chloroform and for what purpose?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Mom Casey Anthony behind bars tonight. You`re seeing photos that we have confirmed were taken after little Caylee goes missing. That is at Fusion bar, contrary to what Cindy Anthony had to say today on the "Today" show.

I want unleash the lawyers again. Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, John Burress.

Have you seen this list from the commissary? High-end items she can choose from, like shrimp cocktail, fresh-catch tuna, chipper snacks, fish steaks? Lingerie? Nacho cheese dip, chocolates, cookies, hot cocoa -- this is like she`s staying at the Hilton, Renee.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, yes, well, the Hilton. Doesn`t sound like (INAUDIBLE) County Jail, Nancy. But after all, what is more interesting is the fact that people are putting money into her commissary account.

GRACE: OK. You want to shift gears, that`s fine.

John Burress, do your client set -- or in the pokey usually get to order, nacho, tortilla chips or chicken?

JOHN BURRESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I have never heard of anything like this so.

GRACE: Well, I haven`t either. What about is, Sue Moss?

BURRESS: . maybe it`s the last supper or something. But not this way. This is quite surprising.

GRACE: Friendship cards? She can get a friendship card?

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: She -- she can.

GRACE: Anniversary cards? Makeup, skin care products? Ultimate styling gel? Oil, moisturizer, makeup, lingerie, bras? What is this all about?

MOSS: She can buy bras and underwear, at least she`ll be ready for the next hot body contest.

GRACE: You know, I don`t really care that she can order all of this, fine, get after it, I would be mad if you didn`t. But what`s concerning me is, for all we know, her child`s remains, Sue Moss, are out in a swampy area.

And she is basically eating, sleeping, reading, watching a little TV and doing nothing to help cops find little Caylee.

MOSS: That`s absolutely correct. And the evidence is mounting. There is even a new witness who has saw (sic) her. And if this new witness saw her with a shovel, this defense team is in real trouble.

GRACE: To Dawn in Michigan. Hi, Dawn.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to know why they`re not showing all the evidence if they`re claiming she is dead.

GRACE: What evidence are you referring to?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The evidence that they have said they found that she -- the -- that they -- they have been showing off and on on the news and stuff. They said that they found evidence, and I`m just wondering why they`re not showing all of the evidence to prove it.

GRACE: To suggest that -- evidence to suggest that little Caylee is dead?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

GRACE: OK. I think the evidence is this, that we know of so far, two cadaver dogs hit on the trunk of mom Casey`s car. Evidence of human decomposition was found by Oak Ridge Laboratories body farm in that car.

The hair of a deceased person that is either an Anthony family member, and they`re deceased, we know it`s not Cindy, George, Lee, or Casey. That only leaves little Caylee.

I think that is the evidence suggesting that she is dead. Plus the fact that she has been missing for such a long time. And, of course, Dawn in Michigan, the police don`t have to reveal to me or you what their evidence is until they go to trial.

Let`s switch gears. I want to help find Kelly Morris. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The search continues on for missing Grandville mother Kelly Currin Morris.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The family needs closure. Everybody needs a little closure on this.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Investigators say an arsonist set her home on fire the same day she disappeared. Her husband, Scott Williams Morris, is a person of interest. Search warrants reveal investigators are looking at bank records, saying in cases of homicide or arson, there is often a financial motive.

Sources tell "Eyewitness News," Kelly and her husband were in dispute over money. Currin spoke to Morris by phone shortly after Kelly disappeared.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t see -- if he any particular place we thought we need to be looking and he said he didn`t.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Out to Gurnal Scott joining us from Raleigh, North Carolina with WPTF.

Gurnal, very unusual circumstances that arson is involved.

GURNAL SCOTT, ANCHOR/REPORTER, WPTF RADIO, COVERING STORY: Yes. Arson is involved with the home of -- the home was found burned after Kelly Morris was discovered missing, and she is still missing a month and a half after that fire occurred.

And they`ve got professional search teams out of Texas coming in to -- to look and canvass the area around Grandville County and town of Stem where the home was, and see if they can find any sign of her as to where she went and what happened to her.

GRACE: We`re showing you a map right now. There is Gurnal Scott speaking with us from WPTF.

Right now, joining us, Kelly`s father, Pat Currin.

Sir, thank you for being with us. When was the last time you saw your daughter?

PAT CURRIN, KELLY MORRIS` FATHER: My wife was at the house on the 3rd about 8:00 that night.

GRACE: And was she in good spirits?

CURRIN: Best I know, yes, ma`am.

GRACE: And, sir, she has two young children, correct?

CURRIN: Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: Have you ever known her to leave them?

CURRIN: No, ma`am.

GRACE: I mean it kills me when I have to leaf the twins just to come to work. What do you want searchers to do? Do you believe that she`s still alive?

CURRIN: We`re hoping for the very best.

GRACE: Yes, sir.

CURRIN: And we are preparing for the worst, obviously, you know, it`s been such a long time. It will be seven weeks tomorrow. So we are hoping for the best, but we obviously are preparing for the worst at this time.

GRACE: Is there a reward being offered by the family? How much?

CURRIN: We have offered $30,000 and the governor of North Carolina has offered $5,000 and CrimeStoppers has offered $5,000.

GRACE: That is a substantial amount of reward.

Everyone, the tip line is 919-963-3213. With us tonight, Kelly Morris`s father.

Look at this young beauty, missing for weeks now. Please help us find Kelly.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The sheriff`s office remains tight lipped about much of the investigation. The fire at the house has been ruled an arson, investigators are calling Kelly`s husband Scott Morris a person of interest but won`t release any further details.

Morris has not said anything publicly since his wife disappeared. Her family members say he has not helped with the search.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Straight back out to Pat Currin, this is Kelly Morris`s father joining us tonight.

Mr. Currin, again, thank you for being with us, I know this is a trying time for you and your wife and your entire family. What were the circumstances of her disappearance?

CURRIN: We -- my wife had gone to -- one of the children had stuck something in their foot and they had gone to their house on the 3rd and my daughter is working a part-time job and had started a new job about 10 days prior to that.

And she had gone -- she works for a group of older people, a place for the older people to live and she was over there helping out with them, collecting money for them, whatever that was for.

But anyway, so she came in while my wife was there and as far as we know everything was OK and obviously none of our family has talked to her since.

GRACE: What are the ages of her children?

CURRIN: 5 and 8.

GRACE: And where they tonight?

CURRIN: The 8-year-old child is with her daddy, which was from a previous.

GRACE: Right.

CURRIN: And the 5-year-old is with Scott.

GRACE: Mr. Currin, thank you for being with us.

Everyone, we`ll be back on the story tomorrow night. Leaving behind two little children, where is Kelly? ` I want to stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Shaun Whitehead, 24, Commerce, Georgia, killed Iraq on a second tour. Awarded the Bronze Star and Purple Heart. Dedicated to country and his fellow soldiers, dreamed of a military career.

Loved time with family, playing with his children. Leaves behind grieving mom Rebecca, widow Brenda, son Gabriel, daughter, Jana.

Shaun Whitehead. American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night at 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/22/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Casey Anthony Defense Seeks to Bar Evidence

Aired October 23, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful little 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen for 18 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. The investigation reveals mom Casey ignores deadly chloroform warnings, warnings that were right in front of her eyes, before allegedly cooking up the highly toxic chemical solution. As the state`s theories on little Caylee`s death emerge, the defense strategy is revealed, as well, the tot mom`s defense now seeking to have all evidence connected to mom Casey`s car, including DNA from hair plus evidence of human decomposition, thrown out of court. The defense begins questioning state`s witnesses, all focusing on the car, as critical FBI lab results to be delivered tomorrow morning, including that chloroform discovered by the FBI in mom Casey`s car trunk.

Police reveal suspicious computer searches on mom Casey`s computer were actually do-it-yourself chloroform recipes. That`s right, the tot mom, Casey, reads up on how to cook up chloroform all at the time little Caylee goes missing, this as grandparents George and Cindy insist when mom Casey was caught on camera partying, it was before Caylee vanished. But the actual photographer confirms mom Casey out celebrating even at a "hot body" contest after Caylee`s gone.

Nearly 1,000 tips pour in. The Anthonys` private investigator is zeroing in on what they say are two new leads, one outside the state of Florida. And still not a single visit to the jailhouse by grandparents George and Cindy, this as complete strangers who say they feel sorry for the tot mom put money in her jail account. But tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony killed with chloroform? Well, according to affiliate WFTV, investigators say someone was researching how to make the potent chemical on her mother`s computer around the same time the little girl vanished. Investigators found high levels of chloroform and evidence of a decomposing body in the trunk of her mother`s car.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The forensic evidence in Casey Anthony`s car trunk, Caylee`s hairs, which investigators say came from her dead body, and air tests showing signs of human decomposition is the strongest evidence so far. And the specifics will go public very soon. It appears the defense team plans to attack that evidence, possibly trying to show that it could have been compromised at some time between when it was parked at the Amscot and when it was parked here at the sheriff`s evidence garage. Cindy Anthony has even suggested that someone planted someone`s body in the trunk while it was here at Johnson`s (ph) Wrecker Service in east Orlando.

CINDY ANTHONY: I smelled rotten whatever it was, something decomposing in there. Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, the mystery surrounding a gorgeous young mom of two, vanishing after a suspicious fire at the family home, North Carolina, Kelly Morris last seen by her husband and children, her car abandoned just one mile away, purse, keys, cell phone inside the car. What happened to 28-year-old Kelly Morris?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The search continues on for missing Granholm (ph) mother Kelly Currin (ph) Morris. Pat Currin has commanded volunteers, canvassed miles of farmland, even in the air to find his missing daughter, Kelly Currin Morris.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We surely would have thought we`d have found something by now, but we just haven`t. And the leads seem to be getting less and less.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So Currin is offering a substantial reward after rumors that his body daughter`s body was discovered but the information was being withheld because there was no money.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re hoping $30,000 will make somebody come forward. It`s like I said, it could be anonymous, I can be through a third person.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Currin is looking for any new leads. So far, there have been a few since his daughter went missing the same day investigators say an arsonist set her home on fire. Her husband, William Scott Morris, is a person of interest. Search warrants reveal investigators are looking at bank records, saying in cases of homicide or arson, there is often a financial motive. Sources tell Eyewitness News Kelly and her husband were in dispute over money.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The family fears the worst. Currin says Morris loved her two daughters more than anything and there`s no way she would leave her family and not say good-bye.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news in the case of missing 3-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Orlando station WFTV is reporting that Casey Anthony`s defense team may be trying to get evidence found in the tot mom`s car thrown out. The station reports that the defense will claim that the evidence could have been compromised between the time it was abandoned and when it was brought to the Orange County sheriff`s office.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: I sat down with her, and when I referenced the car smell, she said, Well, it actually started around Mom`s birthday when -- which is, again, June 5. She said it started around that time when two dead squirrels crawled up under the hood of the car, you know, and they died in there.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ANTHONY LAZZARO, CASEY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: I got a call to come pick her up. She said that she ran out of gas at that corner and that somebody helped her push her car into the Amscot.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: Someone else could have been driving my daughter`s car when it was towed from this one location on the 30th.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: There was no odor in the car when it was towed down to the towing company. No odor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also today, the state attorney`s office announced that they will be releasing FBI lab documents at any moment. At least 30 pages are expected to be released.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Kathi Belich with WFTV, joining us tonight. Kathi Belich, it`s my understanding that when you look up these do-it- yourself chloroform recipes, they all have huge warnings across the top claiming, Do not expose this to children.

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: That`s right. They have warnings about exposing it to children. They have warnings about how dangerous and unpredictable it is, that you should be careful in handling it, it shouldn`t be inhaled. There are warnings all over the place about that.

GRACE: We are showing you some on-line warnings. If anyone looks it up -- and we know now that on the tot mom`s computer, there were various searches for how to do-it-yourself recipes on chloroform, all of these warnings, skull and bones, warning people away from the use and the creation of chloroform.

I want to go to Dr. Tristan Lambert, professor of chemistry at Columbia University. Dr. Lambert, thank you for being with us. I know you need acetone. I know you need bleach. Both simple to get. But how do you go about creating chloroform?

TRISTAN LAMBERT, PH.D., PROFESSOR OF CHEMISTRY, COLUMBIA UNIV.: Well, Nancy, it`s actually quite simple. Just as the recipes on the Internet say, it`s literally as simple as pouring one liquid into another. So what you would do is get your bleach, cool it down with some ice, and then just pour the acetone. Or it could be a number of compounds, isopropyl alcohol, which is rubbing alcohol, or ethanol. You pour that into the solution of bleach very slowly, and that creates the chloroform.

GRACE: That`s all you need to do? Why do you have to put it on ice?

LAMBERT: The ice is there to actually cool down the mixture. So when you actually generate the chloroform, that chemical reaction is what`s called exothermic, so it generates quite a good deal of heat, and that heat can get out of hand. If you didn`t cool the mixture, it would actually begin to boil, and that`s going to be bad for a number of reasons, one of which is it`s going to cause the chloroform to boil, and then you`re going to inhale that. It`s actually -- it would be quite dangerous to not cool it down.

GRACE: And so acetone is actually quite common. It`s very simply used as a drying thinner, correct?

LAMBERT: Among other things. It`s also used to clean metal parts and things of that sort. But yes, it`s very common.

GRACE: So that`s very, very common. Acetone, bleach and what else would I need to create chloroform?

LAMBERT: Just a way to cool the mixture.

GRACE: And you can do that over ice?

LAMBERT: You can do it over ice. Yes. Sure.

GRACE: So the acetone that we bought was 3 bucks. The Chlorox was 2 bucks. That`s a pretty cheap mixture for such a deadly solution. Is it correct, Dr. Lambert, that back in the `70s, chloroform was taken off the market for consumer use?

LAMBERT: Well, I don`t know of those details, but I do know that it`s no longer used for any type of medicinal purpose. It used to be used as an anesthetic back in the 19th century, but it`s, in fact, very dangerous. It`s also carcinogenic. So it`s not used for any human purpose anymore.

GRACE: Dr. Lambert, is there any innocent reason that someone would be cooking up chloroform in their home?

LAMBERT: To my knowledge, there`s very few. Chloroform can be used to sort of weld certain plastic parts together. And as far as I know, there`s not many more uses. It would be a very rare thing for a layperson to actually need chloroform.

GRACE: And one last question for right now. Dr. Tristan Lambert joining us from Columbia University. How does chloroform work as a, quote, "knockout agent"?

LAMBERT: Well, not speaking as a medical doctor, essentially, what happens is you inhale the chloroform, and it acts as a central nervous system depressant. And you know, so with small amounts of chloroform inhaled, what`s going to happen is you`re going to begin to feel dizzy, maybe fatigued, headache. If you inhale more, it`s actually going to cause you to pass out. And that`s why it was used as an anesthetic back in the 19th century. But unfortunately, there`s a very thin window between you passing out, and in fact, you dying, which is most likely due to heart failure.

GRACE: Let`s go to Drew Petrimoulx, joining us from WDBO. The investigation is revealing that the tot mom went to various chloroform Web sites on how to cook it up yourself, allegedly. All of these Web sites -- most of them, anyway -- have dire warnings that she would have had to have ignored if she cooked it up. To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. What is the theory, that she used chloroform to knock out little Caylee and actually put her in the car trunk while she partied?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Yes, well, the theory was that she got in a fight with her mom on June 15, that is, and she called Tony Lazzaro, her boyfriend, and she was wanting to go over there. He said, You can come over, but only if you don`t bring little Caylee. And the theory is that she basically placed Caylee in a trunk with a rag of chloroform and she basically succumbed and died overnight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: There was no odor in the car when it was towed down to the towing company. No odor. I smelled rotten whatever it was, something decomposing in there. Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.

I know what I know. Caylee is not dead. (INAUDIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anthony (INAUDIBLE) looked up chloroform on the Web around the time of Caylee`s disappearance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) moms will put a kid to sleep by covering over the nose and mouth or something and cause it to lose consciousness.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bond (ph) says the practice is more common among young moms who don`t want to be bothered by a crying baby. Bond says it`s a dangerous practice because you don`t know how much the child is inhaling. It can shut down the respiratory system, the brain, and then the heart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We now learn that the tot mom, of course, had apparently gone on line, looking up how to make your own chloroform at home. Now we know those Web sites that were visited have dire warnings that were right in front of her eyes to keep chloroform away from children, this as the Anthonys claim photos that have been released of the tot mom partying and dancing, even on a stripper pole, were before little Caylee went missing. The photographer now confirms, No, these were after the little girl vanished. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m not going to give up on my daughter for any reason, even though some stuff may have came out showing her maybe in -- out having a good time with friends...

CINDY ANTHONY: Those pictures were prior to...

GEORGE ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) between the age of 18 and 21. I mean, this happened way before all these things.

CINDY ANTHONY: Most of the pictures...

GEORGE ANTHONY: This is very disturbing to us.

CINDY ANTHONY: Most of the pictures are shown have happened before June the 16th, and that`s the problem with this whole case. There`s been so many, you know, people out there that are putting things together that, you know, if you follow the timeline, it doesn`t add up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s George and Cindy Anthony on the "Today" show defending the tot mom`s partying after Caylee goes missing. These shots are of her partying at club Fusian, including the night of a "hot body" contest, after she says the little girl goes missing.

Let`s unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon out of Atlanta, veteran defense attorney Peter Odom also out of Atlanta, Mickey Sherman, criminal defense attorney and author of "How Can You Defend Those People?" joining us out of New York.

Eleanor Dixon, you`d have to be blind to ignore those warnings on the chloroform Web site, Do not expose to children.

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Yes, you`re right, Nancy. And certainly, it goes to her state of mind and maybe her motive in wanting to deep little Caylee quiet at some point.

GRACE: To Mickey Sherman. Mickey, even if the theory emerges that she would chloroform little Caylee to keep her quiet and in the trunk so she could party at night and spend the night at her boyfriend`s, that would be an aggravated assault. And a death occurred. That would be a felony murder.

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, there`s no question about it, but the problem is, Why do we know about that? I mean, doesn`t this police department do anything confidentially? I mean, I`m not lauding her for...

GRACE: Well, why are you attacking them? That`s not even remotely close to what I asked you.

SHERMAN: Well, the problem is that even the asking of the questions and the fact that we know about this and that it`s been disseminated...

GRACE: That`s not the problem! The problem is the little girl is likely dead. That`s the problem, all right?

SHERMAN: Yes, but does this move us closer to finding that out?

GRACE: OK. Let me try with Peter Odom. What about it, Odom?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, there are very few innocent explanations for why someone would be trying to make chloroform. The problem for the defense here is not just that chloroform is connected with Casey, but the chloroform is connected with that trunk where a decomposing body was found. That`s a circumstance that`s going to be hard for the defense to explain, frankly.

GRACE: Mickey, do you think that part of their defense strategy is going to try to pin it on someone else that used the computer?

SHERMAN: If they can find anybody to pin it on, or at least to point a finger at, and have some basis for it -- as you know, most judges won`t let third-party culpability evidence in unless there`s some decent showing that that`s a possibility. But if they can find that -- I think that`s why they want the items suppressed because the contamination in the vehicle may be responsible.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Julie in Florida. Hi, Julie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, being in Florida here, I watched the Anthonys try to collect money for searches for Caylee, but I don`t see any searches going on. I`m wondering what`s going on with all that money.

GRACE: To Kathi Belich with WFTV. What about it?

BELICH: I`m sorry. She`s asking the about the money in the jail account?

GRACE: No. She`s asking about the money that the Anthonys allegedly collect to perform searches.

BELICH: Well, we have not been able to find out a lot about that. They started a new foundation. We`ve asked questions about that. We`ve gotten no answers. We don`t know if any money was donated. A previous fund -- there was less than $2,500 in that fund. So we haven`t been able to find a whole lot out about that.

GRACE: You know, Kathi Belich with WFTV, you just brought up the Casey Anthony jail money. Apparently, people are feeling sorry for her and donating money to her jail account, as opposed to the Find Casey account or Equusearch?

BELICH: That`s right. Apparently, there was a local woman who donate money to her here in central Florida. Also, a woman from California, who says she knows something about the jail experience, who donated money to her, as well, as well as her father donating money.

GRACE: To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers." Why would people, anonymous people, people -- other people that have never met the tot mom, put money in her jail account so she can buy lingerie, high-end luxury items, shrimp cocktail, you name it, a huge commissary menu?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Nancy, these people feel sorry for her. They do not want to believe that a mother could do such a heinous thing. And I have to believe they`re identified with her in some way. Either they`ve been abused by a mother, they`ve abused their own children, maybe they`re drug addicts and neglected their own children, they know what it`s like to be put in jail.

But Nancy, I want to throw something else in. I do not believe that Casey Anthony used chloroform to subdue her child so that she could go out on a date. It doesn`t make sense. When you go on those Web sites, it says it irritates the eyes, it irritates the face. So did she Google how to make chloroform or -- and I`m going to be interested to know this -- did she Google child and harm, child, harm, poison, death? How did those Google searches begin because it just -- I can`t believe it just began with looking for chloroform, and I think the origin of the search is going to be really important.

GRACE: Then what do you believe they`ll find?

MARSHALL: I think -- I just had a producer here at CNN look up chloroform before going on the show, and she looked up chloroform and harm. She looked up poison and death. I mean, she got it really quickly. But we did not start with how to make chloroform. And when you saw the side effects, to thank she put a rag, potentially, if the allegations are true, on her child`s face, her child`s eyes, her child`s skin, knowing what that does to a toddler -- it`s a heinous, malicious, hateful act.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: You guys don`t know. The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s (SIC) car is not my granddaughter! So why don`t you guys get your -- get your facts straight!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I know what I know. Caylee is not dead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cindy Anthony feels her granddaughter, Caylee, is alive, even with test results indicating there was a dead body in the back of mother Casey Anthony`s car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s living in total denial.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have hope right now?

CINDY ANTHONY: Absolutely. Just as much as I did last week.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right now, I think she`s somewhere in Texas or even Puerto Rico.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was an overpowering smell out in the back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At first glance, she thought this may be the smell a body or decomposition.

GEORGE ANTHONY: It`s a possibility, yes. I mean, it`s a possibility. I mean, maybe my daughter ran over something.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Patty California. Hi, Patty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question to you, since you`re an attorney and I know you have attorneys on your show -- my question is, with everything that she`s done in the public`s eye since this all started and the e-mails and the psychiatrist reports, do you think that her attorneys will try to claim some kind of insanity defense against her?

GRACE: Well, right now, we know that they are checking the chain of custody, everything to do with the car because the car has the most damning evidence. But what about it, Eleanor Dixon? Do you believe there`s any chance of an insanity defense?

DIXON: Well, of course, the defense attorneys are going to try that. You know, how often do we see that, Nancy? It happens all the time. But you`ve got to look at all the pieces of evidence which point to her guilt and her state of mind.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Absolutely, she knows who has her. I know she`s alive and I know she`s out there. She`s coming home.

She`s leading to a place but she`s not telling me to the right exact location to which apartment it is because she`s afraid if someone walks in that something may happen to Caylee. My daughter has some mistruths out there or half truths, but she`s not a murderer.

There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots it stunk so bad.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Cindy, but these dogs are trained to find dead bodies, Cindy.

C. ANTHONY: The same dogs that cleared our house. There`s no evidence that Casey had ever done any harm to her child.

She lived with me for three years, I`ve never seen anything.

She is not dead.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: My granddaughter, Caylee Marie Anthony, who`s aged 3, is alive. I`m going to find her. I would give my life right this second to have her be dropped off in front of all of us.

I would do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: The FBI lab results expected tomorrow morning. This is the defense gears up to begin cross examining state`s witnesses within the next week.

We are taking your calls live. Out to -- let me see, Nina in Michigan. Hi, Nina.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, we love your show. My husband`s an attorney and we never miss you.

GRACE: Nina, thank you very much. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, the psychologist had said that a sociopath always with a bit of truth into their lives and Casey always seems to say that Caylee is close to home.

Is it possible that they buried Caylee under that cement patio near her playhouse that she loves so much and maybe in some sick way they used the chloroform as some sort of an embalming thing?

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, that cement had been poured fairly recently, but I`m sure the police have checked that out.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: Believe me, Orange County Sheriff`s Office in this investigation has crossed the Ts and dotted the Is.

The body is not there even though she went home and that`s why they got the hits on the 18th. She went home, but the body is by the airport where the pings show that she spent 18 minutes on the 27th, trying to figure out what to do.

There`s no doubt in anybody`s mind and that`s where the search is going to be concentrated to.

GRACE: To Ron Shindel, former NYPD deputy inspector -- Ron, thank you for being with us. Ron, do you believe that it`s significant that allegedly Casey Anthony made her own chloroform as opposed to purchasing it?

Online -- I guess, if she had purchased it online, though, what would she have used, her mom`s credit card?

RON SHINDEL, FMR. NYPD DEPUTY INSPECTOR: Well, that`s it. If she purchased it online she would have left a trail. Obviously, this shows some type of premeditation. To what -- what she actually was premeditating we don`t know. We only suppose at this point.

But by trying to mix her own it shows that she was not trying to leave a trail.

GRACE: And to Dr. Bethany Marshall, joining us out of L.A., do you believe she was trying to circumvent leaving a trail or some other reasoning for her do-it-yourself chloroform recipe?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": It is hard to say. You know she`s so cunning and manipulative, but this is a girl who never wanted to spend her own money. Remember she went shopping at Target after taking the checks. She stole gas from her own parents.

Did she just want to take stuff from her parent`s kitchen to get the chloroform so she didn`t want have to spend her own money? I`ve heard she`s not even spending on commissary items in jail. She just doesn`t want to spend her own money even when she has it to spend.

GRACE: Back to Lawrence Kobilinsky, he`s a famed -- famed forensic scientist with John J. College of Criminal Justice.

Dr. Kobilinsky, you are trying to tell me earlier about how chloroform can accidentally be made?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Yes. Absolutely. Just as Dr. Lambert explained. It is very easy to make it. But Nancy.

GRACE: No, no.

KOBILINSKY: Let me tell you something.

GRACE: He said it`s very easy. He didn`t mention anything about making it accidentally.

KOBILINSKY: Well, it can be made..

GRACE: As a matter of fact, you should pour it over ice to create it, that doesn`t sound like you`re doing it accidentally.

KOBILINSKY: Nancy, it can be made accidentally. But let me tell you something else. This is not forensic science 101. This is forensic science 201. Animal decomposition can result in hundreds of compounds, one of which is chloroform.

Chloroform can also be converted to carbon tetrachloride. Both of these substances can be found as a result of decomposition.

GRACE: Kobe, there was not a dead animal in the car up, under the car, on the hood of the car, in the trunk of the car. I see where you`re headed. That gives me insight into where the defense is headed.

They`re going to use her story that she or her father had run over an animal and it had created the horrible stench, but the reality is -- and I`ll go back to Ron Shindel on this -- cadaver dogs do not hit on animal remains, Ron, and I trained there myself at the Oakridge Laboratories in Tennessee.

There is a unit called the Body Farm there. They have evidence of human decomposition in the trunk, not animal decomposition, but human decomposition. It`s impossible for cadaver dog to hit on animal remains.

SHINDEL: Dogs are trained to hit on human remain, not animal remains. That`s the exact fact and that`s their job, that`s what they`re supposed to do.

GRACE: Out to the lines, to Sherry in Nevada. Oh, excuse me, Cheryl in Nevada. Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have a question. The gentleman that saw somebody looking like Casey Anthony with a bag and a shovel?

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did they ever say what type of a bag that was because wouldn`t she have had to do something with the bag?

GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, what can you tell us about the detail that -- that`s one of three people that sighted her in that area?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes, that man says that he actually saw her coming out of the woods. He also said that he actually saw somebody else out there, a male acting like he was fishing to kind of distract the public for anyone that may pass by from knowing what was actually going on.

But, you know, it hasn`t been a story that`s been confirmed but it is one of three sightings or possible sightings of Casey, you know, maybe dumping the body.

GRACE: What type of bag? Do we know?

PETRIMOULX: I`m not sure if that`s been reported yet. I don`t know.

GRACE: Kathi Belich with WFTV, do we know any more details about the bag?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: I do not know any more details about the bag. I believe that the shovel was in the bag as it was being carried in the trunk of the car, of the woman`s car was already open as she was running out of the woods.

So it appeared she was in a hurry and expecting to get out of there quickly with the impression.

GRACE: Let`s go back to the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Peter Odom and Mickey Sherman.

You know, to Peter Odom, veteran defense attorney out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, the insanity defense is something that Patty in California called in about.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.

GRACE: The search for chloroform, the disposal of the body all of that shows premeditation. How does premeditation or clear intent fit with an insanity claim?

ODOM: Well, it`s really hard to say at this point, but as the evidence mounts showing that Casey has guilty knowledge, as evidence mounts that there was a dead body in the trunk, that there was chloroform in there, the defense is going have to come up with some explanation consistent with the evidence.

That`s why, as I`ve said from the onset, this case is likely to end up with an insanity defense.

GRACE: Mickey?

MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THOSE PEOPLE?": I don`t agree. No jury these days buys insanity defenses even when they`re valid. I mean don`t forget Andrea Yates had to go through two trials before she was found insane.

Jeffrey Dahmer was found sane. People forget about that. We don`t like insanity defenses in this country. It just doesn`t fly and when you especially have a victim as non-worthy as this young girl -- why is she a non-worthy, (INAUDIBLE) it was such an unnecessary death and such a cruel death no matter who did it, no jury is going to buy it, Nancy.

GRACE: Eleanor?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Well, I`m glad to hear Mickey say that, I`d like him on my jury if I put every piece of evidence, which points to Casey`s guilt. The odor of chloroform, the cadaver dog hitting, the DNA, come on, she`s guilty.

GRACE: But insanity. I don`t see it, Bethany, there`s just too much intent. The ability to form, intent to do a crime, Bethany Marshall.

MARSHALL: Chloroform search, but she lied extensively to investigators over the course of many hours. That clearly shows she knew right from wrong. And remember, insanity is a legal concept, not a mental health concept.

From a mental health perspective you can be mentally ill like Andrea Yates and still know right from wrong.

GRACE: We are expecting the FBI lab results tomorrow morning. We`re standing by for that.

To Pam in Canada, hi Pam.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, love your show.

GRACE: Thank you, dear. What`s your questions?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey`s legal bills must be astronomical and I`m just wondering who`s paying for those.

GRACE: Good question. To Kathi Belich from WFTV. Has Baez taken this pro bono?

BELICH: No, he says he`s being paid. He will not say who is paying him and the best we can do is they`ve apparently -- ABC did confirm that it paid some licensing fees for some photos. Other than that, we have no idea where the money is coming from.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: I believe in my heart everything. We`re still getting tips and things like that that my grand daughter is still alive. She is alive. No matter what has been portrayed or no matter what has been brought against my daughter at the moment, my grand daughter is still out there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Sheriff says Kelly Morris was last seen by her husband and two children at her house. The next day, that house was burned. Morris` car and some personal belongings found a short distance away. Since then, hundreds have searched for Morris.

The sheriff`s office remains tight-lipped about much of the investigation. The fire at the house has been ruled an arson. Investigators are calling Kelly`s husband, Scott Morris, a person of office interest, but won`t release any further details.

Morris has not said anything publicly since his wife disappeared. Her family members say he has not helped with the search.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re committed and we`re not going to give up until we find Kelly.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Where is 28-year-old Kelly Morris.

Straight out to Rory O`Neill with Metro Networks. Rory, take it from the beginning. What happened?

RORY O`NEILL, REPORTER, METRO NETWORKS: Well, Nancy, good evening. Back on September 3rd it seems that Kelly Morris just disappeared. One day she was there, the next gone.

The family had assumed or some friends had assumed she had gone off to work but only later did they find that her car was parked a block away and her home was actually on fire.

That`s when police and firefighters were first -- learned of this woman`s disappearance. They go to the house. She is not there and that`s when the search begins.

Since then her husband Scott has been labeled as a prime suspect. He has not been contributing to the search and he is the man police are looking at very closely. They want to know where he was the night before she disappeared.

GRACE: And Rory, where does he say he was?

O`NEILL: He says he went to bed early. How the two have had been an estranged relationship, sleeping in separate bedrooms so he says he went to bed but he actually -- cell phone records indicate he was up late talking to his father and actually had his father come over and baby sit the kids, and he did leave the house for about an hour.

GRACE: You know, I want to go out to our lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Peter Odom and Mickey Sherman.

You know, Mickey, in arson cases that I have prosecuted I recall distinctly people will -- perpetrators will take their car and move it, move it away from the structure, away from the building. That`s a dead giveaway of arson.

SHERMAN: Yes, and you know, don`t forget. When people plan these things they don`t plan them well. We`re not talking about criminal geniuses here. So it`s those little things.

And I -- I`m bothered by the fact that the guy is not searching for her. That`s weird. That`s just very strange.

GRACE: Back to Rory O`Neill with Metro Networks. When was the last time she was seen?

O`NEILL: She was last seen at the home the night before. That is the only time -- that`s the last time the husband reports seeing her is before he went to bed and she said that -- he said that she had left to go out and look for a missing family dog, but it turns out the dogs were actually in their crates according to the kids the next day.

But the interesting thing is once firefighters got to the scene of the house and saw the house ablaze, the dogs were free and roaming around the backyard of that household.

GRACE: So typically, to Ron Shindel, former NYPD deputy inspector, if you are burning down the home, you`re burning down evidence. Evidence of what?

SHINDEL: Evidence of the crime you`ve committed. And in this case we have a missing person so the crime that could have been committed there could have been a homicide.

GRACE: With me right now is Kelly`s father Pat Currin.

Mr. Currin, thank you for being with us. What are police telling you?

PAT CURRIN, FATHER OF MISSING MOM OF 2 KELLY MORRIS: That we obviously -- you know they`ve told us that the house is ruled arson which you`ve already mentioned.

We know that, you know, we saw Kelly that night -- or we -- yes, we actually saw her the night before at 8 o`clock and I actually went to where Scott worked the next morning about 9:30 and he was there and everything seemed to be fine at that time and then about 12:20, that -- after lunch, one of the guys that he worked for called me and said that the - he said I`m not sure, but the right address is, I believe, Kelly`s house is on fire.

So at that time I tried to make a call to Kelly to at least let her know that the house was on fire and, you know, of course, I didn`t get her to answer the phone so I called Scott and he -- I asked him, I said, what was going on, and he said the house is on fire, so I`ll be down in a few minutes.

So I was in the next small town so I drove over as quick as I could get there.

GRACE: It`s interesting to me, Mr. Currin, about the house being set ablaze. Do you know where the fire started, what room?

CURRIN: You know, just from what the fire chief and everybody was telling me that the fire started in the back of the house.

GRACE: The back -- what room would that have been?

CURRIN: Well, they had a screened-in back porch in the back, I believe it started there from the fire chief said. It appeared to have started on the back porch.

GRACE: Do they being an accelerant was used like gasoline?

CURRIN: They`ve not told me what they thought was used. They just ruled it as arson is all they know.

GRACE: And -- so all they know is it`s arson. They don`t know how it was set.

CURRIN: If they do, they`ve not told me.

GRACE: Mr. Currin, have you learned anything about whether items were taken out of the home before it was set on fire?

CURRIN: I do not know.

GRACE: Did the husband have any items there?

CURRIN: Sure. I mean, you know, both of them were still living there. They had a rolled -- had a four-wheeler and lawn mower and stuff in the garage. They had -- you know, the firefighters have tried to save as much of their personal items as they could.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Gina in Pennsylvania. Hi, Gina.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.

GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do we know about this guy? This husband? Does he have any type of a criminal past? A violent history? Did they have a volatile relationship? What do we know about him other than he`s a person of interest?

GRACE: Back to Rory O`Neill with Metro Networks, what do we know?

O`NEILL: State Bureau of Investigation did conduct its probe and they did find he did have a history of having a temper such as punching holes in the wall. One time he actually threw a computer out of the window so neighbors and friends into say Scott did have a bit of a temper.

GRACE: Is that true, Mr. Currin?

CURRIN: Yes, ma`am. Kelly had said that -- you know I had asked her when she said they were having problems and she had actually came to live in our house in June for about three weeks, and -- you know, said he had a bad temper.

But I asked her did he have -- you know, put his hands on her, she said he had not.

GRACE: What about the episode of throwing a computer out of the window? What was that about?

CURRIN: I don`t - I don`t know about that.

GRACE: Don`t know about that.

CURRIN: No, ma`am.

GRACE: Has she every been gone for a period of days without being in touch with you guys?

CURRIN: No, ma`am. Never.

GRACE: And how are her children?

CURRIN: Excuse me?

GRACE: How are her children tonight?

CURRIN: Well, the older child is, obviously, with her dad and the younger child is still with Scott.

GRACE: Mr. Currin, what have the children been told about their mom?

CURRIN: Well, that she`s missing and we`re looking for her.

GRACE: Everyone, the tip line, 919-963-3213. There is a $36,000 reward. Take a look at Kelly Morris, 28, Stem, North Carolina.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CURRIN: We are hoping for the best, but we obviously are preparing for the worst at this time. We`ve offered $30,000 and the governor of North Carolina has offered $5,000 and the CrimeStoppers has offered $1,000.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Morris` house was burned the day after she was last seen. Authorities ruled the fire an arson. They`ve named her husband, Scott Morris, a person of interest in her disappearance.

Newly released search warrants indicate investigators are looking at Scott and Kelly Morris` bank records. The warrants also showed the couple had arguments where Scott punched holes in the wall and once threw a computer out the window.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Everybody, earlier on the show, one of the reporters said ABC paid for right to Anthony family photos. I want to clarify. It was NBC that paid for those rights.

Very quickly, back to this story, Rory O`Neill with Metro Networks, is it true police have asked for bank records of the Morris?

O`NEILL: That was part of the -- part of the warrant that they had received.

GRACE: OK.

O`NEILL: . was to get information with those bank warrants as well as searching his vehicle.

GRACE: To Eleanor Dixon, what significance the bank records?

DIXON: It`s very significant because you could see where the husband`s interests lie, what he spends his money on and those can give you some very important clues.

GRACE: To Mary in Illinois, hi, Mary.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, about the cadaver dogs how they can tell the difference between human flesh and.

GRACE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: . and OK. Can a cadaver dog go in and tell the difference between regular ashes and human ashes, and is that why that guy set the house on fire to maybe explain away his wife`s disappearance?

GRACE: OK. A cadaver dog can hit on human remains. To my knowledge, cadaver dogs have not been brought into the home. There are no remains found in the home that we know of.

Everyone, let`s stop for a moment and remember Army Private First Class William Dix, 32, Carver City, California, set for a second tour, also served Korea in the Marines. Awarded the Army Commendation Medal, Overseas Service Ribbon and National Defense Service Medal.

Remembered for a sense of humor and devotion. Leaves behind parents, Barbara and William, sister Stephanie, brother Christopher.

William Dix, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially for you for being with us. And a very happy birthday to veteran prosecutor Eleanor Dixon. Finally 21.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/23/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Forensic Evidence Released in Missing Florida Toddler Case

Aired October 24, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl named Caylee, little Caylee missing for 18 long weeks now.
Just hours ago, FBI lab results released, and it is a bombshell, the evidence confirming the scent of death, human decomposition, and extremely high levels of chloroform in mom Casey Anthony`s car trunk, the stunning results debunking a possible defense strategy to blame that stench and decomposition on a dead animal or a rotten pizza, the FBI even going as far as putting that rotten pizza theory to the test.

Plus, forensic experts confirm the decomposition in Casey`s car trunk is from a human and not an animal, this on the heels of reports the defense is set to demand all evidence connected to that car be thrown out of court. As the search for the little 3-year-old intensifies tonight, the big question, of course, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: I found my daughter`s car today.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The state attorney`s office has made public over 30 pages of FBI lab documents showing tests done on tot mom Casey Anthony`s car.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: And it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The FBI says one of the hairs found in Casey`s car trunk shows signs of decomposition at the root, which indicates death, and says it`s consistent with hairs found on Caylee`s hairbrush.

CINDY ANTHONY: Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the FBI says it found, quote, "an unusually large concentration" of chloroform, far greater than what is typically seen in human decomposition, in the carpet sample from Casey`s trunk, where investigators found a mysterious stain.

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: Maybe my daughter ran over something.

CINDY ANTHONY: There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car, full of maggots.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The lab says not only was there no pizza found in the trunk of the car, but they conducted their own decomposing pizza test in their lab, which showed no maggots on the pizza after testing.

GEORGE ANTHONY: There was an overpowering smell.

CINDY ANTHONY: That smell was terrible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And in other breaking news tonight, in the last hours, Hollywood superstar and Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson`s mother and brother found dead at a Chicago home. Police on high alert for the shooter, and a 7-year-old boy in extreme danger tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news tonight. A shocking discovery in Chicago, where local media is reporting superstar Jennifer Hudson`s mother and brother were found dead inside the family home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first victim was a female found in the living room floor with a fatal gunshot wound. The second victim was a male subject found in the bedroom with a fatal gunshot wound.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An Amber Alert has been issued for Hudson`s nephew, 7-year-old Julian King (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anybody that knows the whereabouts of the 7-year- old -- his name is Julian King. He`s 7 years old, male, African-American.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seven-year-old Julian King missing with a man considered armed and dangerous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Breaking news tonight, as the FBI releases lab results in the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s (SIC) car is not my granddaughter!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: FBI lab documents have been officially released showing evidence of decomposition in both the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car and the root of a hair found in the vehicle.

CINDY ANTHONY: I smelled (ph) rotten whatever it was. Something decomposing in there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The FBI says there are hairs in the trunk that do not show signs of decomposition, and a hair consistent with Caylee`s which does, which could indicate Caylee was alive when she put into the trunk of her mother`s car and died in the trunk.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the theory is that she basically placed Caylee in the trunk with a rag of chloroform, and she basically succumbed and died overnight.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: The trunk was open, the windows were rolled down to what I assume ventilate the horrible smell. Whatever it was, it was very potent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The smell I smelled inside that car was the smell of decomposition.

CINDY ANTHONY: There was no odor in the car when was towed down to the towing company. No odor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Results from air sample tests say there also appeared to be an unusually high concentration of chloroform in the trunk of the tot mom`s Pontiac Sunfire.

CINDY ANTHONY: Air samples don`t mean anything.

You guys are going to put Caylee in a coffin.

Caylee is not dead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: In my gut, she`s still OK. And it still feels like she`s close to home.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So many developments. Let`s go straight out to news director Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, what is the very latest?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, Jane, here are the articles right here. This is the report that was released today by the FBI dealing with the Casey Anthony case. FBI tests have concluded that human decomposition and traces of chloroform found in the back of Casey Anthony`s Sunbird (SIC), and that`s part of the report.

Now, the DNA tests concluded that the hair sample found in the back of the car could not be confirmed whether it`s Casey`s or Caylee`s. And they even took a sample from the hairbrush that Caylee used. But one of the things they did say, Jane, is that there was that -- the hair samples showed some decomposition of that hair strand at the bottom, as they call it, the dark band or the death band.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, I`m looking at this report. It`s 35 pages, as you mentioned. It`s very detailed. It`s the kind of thing that us laypeople are going to have a hard time analyzing. But we`ve got forensic experts here tonight.

Let`s take a look at some of the conclusions of Dr. Michael Arnall, board-certified forensic pathologist. He`s going to analyze this in a second, but -- he read the whole thing. Here`s what he concluded. One, decomposition occurred in the trunk of the car. Two, that decomposition is human. Three, the decomposition lasted about 2.6 days. Four, the decomposing tissue included one human hair. Five, the human hair belongs to either Casey or Caylee Anthony, based on mitochondrial DNA analysis. And six, Casey Anthony is not decomposed. In other words, Casey is alive.

So Doctor, does this show that Caylee is, in fact, dead?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes. This is evidence that one of the hairs on Caylee`s -- well, either Caylee or Casey`s -- head is decomposed. And as we know, Casey is not decomposed. That leaves Caylee with a decomposed hair in the trunk of the car.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So now -- this has been stated often, but why can`t they get to the point where they can figure out exactly whose hair this is? This was a mitochondrial DNA test, but apparently, there are nuclear tests. There are more detailed tests that can be done on here. Is the fact that we didn`t get the root of this hair what`s standing between really identifying whether it`s Caylee or Casey`s once and for all?

ARNALL: Right. We each have both mitochondrial DNA in part of our cell and nuclear DNA in another part. What they were able to find is mitochondrial DNA. However, the other evidence -- that is, the evidence of decomposition -- suggests that whoever that hair belongs to, either Caylee or Casey, was decomposed. And as we know, Mom, Casey, is not decomposed.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So basically, for our viewers, what you`re saying is that this hair shows signs of decomposition, which means a dead person. In other words, the person to whom this hair belongs is dead, right?

ARNALL: Right. This hair belongs to a person who`s dead and decomposed.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. And therefore, it can only belong to one of two people, based on the DNA testing. That is either Caylee or Casey. And since Casey is clearly alive, even though she`s sitting in jail tonight, then wherefore, it has to belong to Caylee, wherefore, she is dead.

Let`s bring in Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky. He is a forensic scientist and he is also a consultant to Casey Anthony`s defense team. Koby (ph), did you reach the same conclusion? And again, you`re working for the defense at this point. But did you reach the same conclusion that this says, basically, she`s dead, the child is dead?

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, Jane, let me address the issue that Dr. Arnall just raised. He was very clear that it`s either Casey or Caylee`s hair. That is supposed to be based on mitochondrial DNA analysis. What Dr. Arnall is not telling you is that mitochondrial DNA is not unique to an individual. But not only is it not unique because all maternally-related relatives have the same mitochondrial DNA, but also non- relatives -- there are certain non-related individuals that share the same mitochondrial DNA. So this is speculation. This is not scientific fact.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But you`re saying that somebody accidentally dropped a piece of hair in the trunk, and they just happened to have the same exact DNA as Caylee and Casey, but it`s not Cindy because she`s alive, so it couldn`t be her hair, but it`s somebody else who then somehow ended up dead or was dead?

KOBILINSKY: Jane, Jane, I`m not saying anything of that sort. And as you know, I cannot comment on the specifics of a case that I`m working on. But I will say that the conclusion that this hair is either Caylee or Casey is simply not scientific. It`s a speculation.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, Dr. Arnall, you know, shoot back.

ARNALL: I agree with -- I agree with precisely what he said. And the defense will be confronted with the problem that someone who is dead and decomposed has mitochondrial DNA consistent with either Casey or Caylee. So you`ll develop a list of people in the neighborhood who could have been in the trunk and who are currently missing and decomposed to whom this hair might belong.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s my point. That`s my point, Koby, is that, statistically, the probability of it being anybody else but Caylee is minute to the point of being ridiculous.

KOBILINSKY: Well, you know, "statistically" is exactly the right word because we deal with statistics. We do not have a unique profile. The statistics may be more common than you would think. And the relevant population may not be in the block. It may be in the county or the state.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know, this reminds me of the O.J. Simpson trial, when they started doing all the crazy DNA analysis that got to the point where nobody could understand what they were talking about. And basically, you know, it was sort of, like, in confusion, there is victory for the defense.

Do you think that that`s what they`re going to do? And let me bring in the lawyers for that -- Joe Episcopo, defense attorney, and Penny Douglas Furr. Do you think that`s what`s going to happen, Joe? In other words, they`re going to use the statistical possibility that it could possibly be somebody else within the concept of the universe, and they`re going to -- they`ll argue that therefore, you can`t prove that Caylee is dead?

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, yes. You have to understand the defense function here. The defense does not have to prove anything. They only have to suggest reasonable doubt. And this is another reasonable doubt to suggest to the jury and get an inference that, Hey, it may not be correct. So the idea that the defense has to prove something is wrong. Remember that. What they have to do is put Dr. Koby on and take care of not only the hair but also the chloroform, which can be found naturally.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Penny, it`s common sense. I mean, yes, theoretically, hypothetically, within the bounds of possibility, it could be somebody else. But it`s -- it`s Caylee`s, according to just probability.

PENNY DOUGLAS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I have the same report that you have, and in the report, it says with the odor, that it could be of human origin -- not that it is, but it could be. Now, the defense could go very far with that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: It just seemed like -- from our perspective, all it seemed like from day one, you guys were building a case against Casey as a murderer.

(CROSSTALK)

CINDY ANTHONY: One thing I know is she loves that child.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: My husband`s a deputy sheriff. Years ago, he was a homicide investigator, as well. And the first thing he thought was human decomposition. I`m a nurse. I thought human decomposition.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lee Anthony says Casey claimed she first noticed the smell on June 5.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: She said it started around that time, when two dead squirrels crawled up under the hood of the car, you know, and they died in there.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The FBI says nearly all the compounds present in early human decomposition were detected in trunk samples, and compounds you would expect to find with animal decomposition were not found in her car trunk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Here it is, 35 pages of lab reports confirming a lot of what has been previously leaked regarding air, hair and chloroform. So what is Casey Anthony`s defense team saying about all this?

Let`s go to Drew Petrimoulx, a reporter with WDBO radio. What is their reaction? Are they worried about this?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: No, just the opposite, actually. Jose Baez said today that, basically, the cat`s out of the bag. The prosecution has shown its hand and that they have nothing, or at least what they have has a lot of holes in it. And while there is some very, you know, concerning, damning even, evidence in these reports, there is also, you know, throughout the reports, words like "not definite" and "preliminary" and "remote possibility." So basically, he says that this casts a shadow of a doubt on the whole prosecution`s argument and that people should be out now looking for Caylee because she`s still alive.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And let me go to Donald Schweitzer, former detective with the Santa Ana PD, who probably gets as aggravated as I do when we hear crazy defense scenarios and it`s sort of, like, anything possible becomes reasonable doubt. Now we hear that the defense possibly will argue that all evidence connected to this car -- in other words, all of the forensics we`re talking about right now -- should be thrown out because it`s possible that other people had access to this car. Do you think that`s going to happen?

DONALD SCHWEITZER, FORMER DETECTIVE, SANTA ANA PD: No. I think that when you throw out evidence, it`s because people`s constitutional rights were violated. There were no violations here. And frankly, the chain of evidence seems to be pretty solid to the extent that we know that car has been in a garage. We`ve seen pictures of it. So that doesn`t seem to be a problem.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, I think what they`re saying is, sometime after Casey Anthony abandoned it to when it was towed away, that somehow, somebody else may have gotten in there and put this theoretical person that isn`t Caylee`s DNA or hair into the trunk.

SCHWEITZER: Jane, I think that they`re going to be poking holes at this evidence, and that`s why the prosecution and the police can`t just rely on this evidence. I agree with some of your other guests that this doesn`t carry the day. There are some problems with it. But it`s good evidence in light of all of the evidence that they have. And the police have to keep digging, keep interviewing people.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. The phone lines have lit up, so many questions about this bombshell evidence just coming in. Pam from Wisconsin. Your question, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Thank you for taking my call. I love the show. With the chloroform that she was looking up on the computer, everyone`s talking about, well, they don`t know if Casey was the one who looked it up. Couldn`t they take fingerprints off the computer and find out who`s actually used it?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, Natisha Lance, Nancy Grace producer. Obviously, one of the lab findings was the presence of chloroform. Tell us a little about that, and then the searches on the computer, Casey Anthony`s computer, for chloroform.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Jane, there was chloroform, a residue of chloroform, found not only in the trunk but in also in the right and left side liner of the trunk of the car. And also, those searches that were on the computer, we don`t know for sure if it was Casey, but it was under Casey`s log-in name. And we don`t know the date of those searches, but it was searches for recipes for chloroform.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Now, Mark Hillman, clinical psychotherapist and author of "My Therapist Is Making Me Nuts" -- great title -- I`ve heard speculation that people -- and I`m speaking hypothetically -- use chloroform to knock out their kids when they want to go dancing, and that drug addicts sometimes do this. They want to leave their kids, they don`t have a baby-sitter, and they just give them something to knock them out, and sometimes the kids overdose.

MARK HILLMAN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, to be honest with you, Jane, I truly haven`t heard that. But let`s take a look -- not only from the forensic evidence, but let`s take a look, more importantly, from the psychological and behavioral aspects of Casey. Right before you went to break, you hear Cindy saying, Casey loves Caylee. Now, June 15, she went missing. It was Cindy, not Casey, who a month later called the police and saying that there was a smell of a dead body decomposing. Now, then she changes her story to it`s pizza. Then Casey says the police have this vendetta against her, with a persecution complex. And you begin to question it right from the very beginning of her behavior.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let`s go back to the forensic experts. You heard pizza mentioned because Cindy at one point had said, Dr. Arnall, that, Oh, the smell in the trunk, the foul smell is pizza, it rotted, there were maggots. Apparently, tests were done that debunked that. Tell us about that.

ARNALL: It`s not pizza. They actually went ahead and decomposed a pizza. Their observations were that both the organic and inorganic compounds found in the trunk are of human origin and not a pizza origin. And they made the further observation that when they decomposed a pizza, there were no maggots on the pizza. And this makes some sense. Maggots characteristically like a big juicy piece of decomposing tissue and...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, this makes me sick. All right...

ARNALL: Well, you asked.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, no. I understand. I was trying to bring a little levity to a very, very, very depressing and sad situation. But let me -- let me...

ARNALL: My point is that the pizza is going to dry out before it decomposes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Basically, it wasn`t a pizza, Dr. Kobilinsky, and...

ARNALL: It was not a pizza.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and so...

ARNALL: Not a pizza.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... they eliminated that explanation. They also eliminated, Koby, the possibility that it was an animal causing the smell in that trunk. So where does that leave us? Because those were the two excuses that were put forth that obviously now have been debunked.

KOBILINSKY: Well, I`m not so sure that their conclusion is correct. They`ve eliminated the possibility of animal decomposition. I`m not convinced of -- of that as a fact. Experts will come to different opinions based upon their tests and observations.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I mean, really, is that the way this case is going to be argued? In other words, science doesn`t exist? It`s kind of, like, we can`t trust anything scientific?

KOBILINSKY: No, Jane -- Jane...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You wouldn`t want that.

KOBILINSKY: Well, of course.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Your life is about science.

KOBILINSKY: No, I believe in science. But Jane, I do not speak for the defense, and I`m not -- I can`t tell you what strategies are going to be applied. I`m just pointing out that it`s clear to me pizza will not produce the kind of chemicals that you would have in animal or human decomposition.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car, full of maggots. It stunk so bad. You know how hot it`s been. That smell was terrible!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The trunk of Casey Anthony`s car is a trove of information which could be critical to the first degree murder case against her, since her daughter, Caylee`s, body has not been found. The FBI says it also found unusually high levels of chloroform, a potentially deadly substance, in the vapors coming from the carpet in Casey`s trunk, more than you would expect from normal human decomposition.

GEORGE ANTHONY: You guys don`t know. The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s (SIC) car is not my granddaughter!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, in for Nancy Grace. Thirty- five pages of damning lab reports from the FBI in today. Meanwhile, Casey Anthony sits in jail with no bond possible. And she got her first visitor today who wasn`t part of the legal team.

Natisha Lance, tell us about that.

LANCE: I`m sorry. Could you repeat that?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. The visitor today, the minister who visited her?

LANCE: The minister -- he is actually someone who has been helping them with these vigils that they`ve been having. And recently, the vigils have not been at the Anthony home anymore. They`ve moved to this church where this pastor is. He came and visited Casey this morning for a few hours.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So I have to ask, Leonard Padilla, why a minister? What does that say about Casey`s mental state?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, it doesn`t really say anything, other than I believe the minister`s conversation with her would be privileged. And she can create a message system between her, the minister, and Cindy and George, and Lee, even, that will not be -- it`s privileged, just like if it was an attorney. So instead of the attorneys taking time to go over to the jail, they sent the minister over.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police spoke with the facility manager of the tow truck company that was holding Casey Anthony`s car, and he told cops that the smell coming from Anthony`s car reminded him of a smell from another car where a man committed suicide.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There was no odor in the car when it is towed down to the towing company. No odor.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She said that she either went down to this tow yard and spoke to the gentleman who gave a statement to police who said that there was this odor, and he said that that smell does not start until a week after it had been at the tow yard.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Cindy Anthony has even suggested that someone planted someone`s body in the trunk while it was here at Johnson`s Wrecker Service in East Orlando.

ANTHONY: Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, GUEST HOST: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace.

Thirty-five pages of lab reports just coming in confirm what had been leaked previously, regarding air, hair and chloroform. Meantime, Casey Anthony sits in jail, no bond.

I want to bring in the lawyers, because Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter just said, hey, they`re sending in a minister -- and this his theory, you know, we don`t confirmation on this, obviously, because there is privilege there, and so she can talk to him without the Sunshine laws having that conversation ending up on the local news.

We, of course, remember that a lot of the conversations Casey had in jail ended up literally playing on this show and all over the country.

Do you think that`s actually happening with this minister? And I`ll go to Penny Douglass Furr on that.

PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, most likely they are having conversations that are privileged. But what I wanted to say is, if there are conversations that are being carried then to her family, then you destroy the privilege.

So anything that`s discussed between the two of them is privileged. But once it goes to a third party, it`s not protected anymore.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Do you think, Joe Episcopo, that the authorities could actually prove that or do they have to just assume that the minister is doing what he`s doing, you can`t mess with the minister?

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you could subpoena him and the parents, put them under oath and ask him, what did he tell you? And then they`d have to answer the question.

So that`s one way to find out if it happened, and besides, he doesn`t -- the minister doesn`t have a right to give away that privilege and tell someone else. You can`t do that. It`s like attorney/client.

I can`t ever reveal it unless my client tells me to do it or my client does it. And, again, if a third person is in my office and someone is revealing me something, that other person hears it, it`s not privileged.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well.

EPISCOPO: So the privilege is controlled.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, this was your theory. Is there any other explanation for why her parents and her brother have not visited her in jail since she was re-arrested after the murder indictment came down?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: Well, you said it at the first part of your statement, and when we were back there, we had a young lady actually living with her, 24/7, traveling to the attorney`s office back and forth for nine days.

There is a lot of things that the young lady knows that she hasn`t revealed and I have not asked her. But one of the things that they were very upset about was that they could not communicate with each other in the jail or on the phone without it being taped or recorded.

So my thing, and -- the attorney, Mr. Episcopo there told you what happens. And that is that I have no doubt, and the way the family thinks, I have no doubt the minister is the one that`s carrying the messages.

And eventually, law enforcement or the FBI is going to subpoena the parents, and ask them. Because.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, what are they achieving by all this alleged subterfuge that we certainly can`t confirm? What -- what kind of communications?

PADILLA: If it --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: She has lied to her mother and father over and over again so.

PADILLA: Here`s the thing. Casey might lie to the parents. Cindy will lie to the media. One day she says there was a body decomposing in there, the next day she says it was pizza.

One day she tells us that Casey bought the cross at JCPenny for Caylee. Caylee had been dead for days.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, what`s your point? Your point is.

PADILLA: Well, the point is that the family lied.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is mom in denial? Maybe they`re in -- let`s bring in the shrink.

PADILLA: No.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Because Mark Hillman, clinical psychotherapist, I mean, nobody can blame a mother for defending her child. I mean, since time in memorial, every defendant has always had their parents there, for the most part, you know, proclaiming their innocence long after -- look at Scott Peterson, you know?

MARK HILLMAN, CLINICAL PSYHOTHERAPIST, AUTHOR OF "MY THERAPIST IS MAKING ME NUTS": You`re absolutely right, Jane. In the sense that if you`ve lost your granddaughter, why would you want to lose your own daughter? So I think the parents are acting out of a nurturing and protective instinct, as I think most parents would.

We sit here and we judge that, but, again, it`s still a father and a mother trying to do everything they can to protect their own daughter, their own issue.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I mean, nobody knows what it`s like to be Cindy and George Anthony, except Cindy and George Anthony, because they have been through hell and back, I mean, just looking at this video of everything that`s happened to them and the protests outside their home.

Margaret, Colorado, you`ve been hanging on for a while. What is your question, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m just wondering why she doesn`t look traumatized. I lost a grandson in a flash flood last year, and my -- daughter-in-law is traumatized. She shows no emotion. No.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you`re referring to who shows no emotion?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The mother of this child.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know -- oh Casey, yes, Casey. Well, we`re going to have to go back to the shrink one more time. I mean there is a lack of affect, except she does seem to smile sometimes when she sees that a lot of cameras are on her.

HILLMAN: Look, we need to understand something that right from the very beginning, when I was on this show, July 25th, I gave a diagnosis of schizoid affect disorder. There is no remorse, there is no emotion.

The problem with what`s going on right now is if you have there is if you have a broken leg, you can see that. But you can`t see true clinical mental illness. That`s the issue that the docs and the forensics will point out in their report.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Ruth, California, your question, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, thank you for taking my call. I`m wondering if the maggots they recovered from the car can be tested for DNA, chloroform, anything else that may have been used on Caylee, and if it would be more conclusive than the hair.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let`s go to Mark Williams, news director at WNDB. Did they actually recovery maggots from the car?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: That -- I really don`t know, Jane. That`s an interesting question. But, you know, one thing we`ve got to take into consideration.

Even though there -- the Body Farm says there was an 80 percent conclusion that there was a body in the back of the car, we don`t know who it was, you know, the cadaver dogs hitting in the backyard and in the car during the initial investigations.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, absolutely. You know, I want to go back to Donald Schweitzer, a former detective with the Santa Ana P.D., we`re talking about Casey Anthony, sitting in jail, obviously for a long time.

Everybody was hoping that she would somehow tell the whole story, and somehow that would lead to finding Caylee Anthony. Now that she is sitting there, now that she cannot get out on bond, now that she is charged with first-degree murder and a host of other charges, and she has two trials looming, do you think that there is a possibility, and you`ve interviewed suspects of all kinds, even those who were a little cuckoo, that she could crack?

DONALD SCHWEITZER, FMR. DETECTIVE, SANTA ANA PD: At this time, I think that she`s so lawyered up that the police are never going to get back to her. They`ve lost their opportunity. She has got a protective bubble. I don`t know if this clergyman is coming in there to -- you know to protect the communications, but I`m sure that the attorneys aren`t going to ever let her make another statement that`s incriminating.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know, I was kind of naive when I first heard clergyman coming in, I thought, you know, maybe she found religion and maybe she`s sort of having a change of heart as often happens with people in prison, suddenly they -- you know, they become different people entirely.

And let`s bring in the attorneys. I mean, what is going on here? Do you think that the prosecution is just preparing for trial, or are they going up and saying, hey, you know, Florida is a death penalty state, you tell us what really went on, you lead us to the body and you know, we`re not going to go for the death penalty? Joe?

EPISCOPO: This isn`t a death penalty case. You don`t have aggravating factors, since you don`t have a body. And you won`t get a death penalty, and there is no point in trying to go for that.

But as far as the minister goes, maybe he is comforting her. Maybe she does need some psychological help. The attorneys can go in there. Their communications are privileged, too. I just think we`re making too much out of this.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t know, Penny Douglass Furr, if you could say absolutely, certainly, that this is not a death penalty case. There are aggravating and mitigating factors, and in the death penalty phase, they have a mini trial to determine if there are more mitigating or more aggravating factors.

One of them is the age of the victim if the child is under 12. So isn`t that one of the factors?

DOUGLASS FURR: It is. However, I think it`s got to be a little more than it could be, or it would be or it may be. And all these scientific reports are saying, it could be her hair, it may be decomposition in the air.

I think for -- especially for the death penalty, the jury wants to know absolutely that is what happened. And their theory does not exclude every other reasonable theory.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`re going to have to leave it there for a second. We`ve got a lot more on the story in just a moment.

In the meantime, a horrific story, the desperate search for a male suspect in the rape and brutal attack of a 16-year-old Chicago girl. The teen victim forced by knifepoint into an alley where she was assaulted, beaten, and her throat slashed.

The perpetrator described as 5`9", 130 pounds, wearing a dark hoodie. A $10,000 reward if you have any information, please call Chicago Police, 312-746-8282.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A shocking discovery in Chicago where local media is reporting superstar Jennifer Hudson`s mother and brother were found dead inside the family home. An AMBER Alert has been issued for Hudson`s nephew, 7-year-old, Julian King.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first victim was the female, found in the living room floor, has a fatal gunshot wound. The second victim was a male subject found in a bedroom with a fatal gunshot wound.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell in for Nancy Grace. Heart breaking news for Hollywood superstar and Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson. Hudson`s brother and mother both found dead in Chicago, and topping it all off, a 7-year-old relative has been snatched from the crime scene and is missing tonight.

For the very latest, let`s go straight out to reporter Kathy Chaney with the "Chicago Defender." She is live at the scene of this double murder.

Kathy, what is the very latest?

KATHY CHANEY, REPORTER, CHICAGO DEFENDER, COVERING STORY: The very latest is the police right now are positioning the police vans to bring the bodies out. What we know right now that there are unconfirmed reports that the man they suspect has the 7-year-old boy is his father, William Balfour.

Like I said, those are unconfirmed reports that it is his father, and that`s the connection of Jennifer Hudson`s mother, Darnell Hudson, was found shot in the head in the home`s -- sorry, living room, and her brother -- I believe he`s 29-year-old, her brother Jason was found shot in the chest in one of the bedrooms.

Neighbors said that they heard gunshots earlier this morning, and then another relative came to the home later on, a few hours later, and discovered Jennifer`s mother, called the police, and when the police came, they discovered the body of her brother.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So I understand that this child who is missing is the nephew of Jennifer Hudson, it is believed? Would that necessarily make the suspect that they`re pursuing the brother of Jennifer Hudson, the other brother?

Or could you explain the familial connections there?

CHANEY: The unconfirmed reports -- what we`re -- what the speculation is, is that the man who has taken or who has allegedly taken the 7-year-old nephew, Julian King, may be the boy`s father.

The boy`s mother is Julia. I`m not sure where she is right now. I know there are some family members that are on the scene, but they haven`t said who they are exactly, but we`re suspecting that it is the father of the boy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. So it`s the father of the boy, but I`ve just been told by producers that it`s not believed to be any brother of Jennifer Hudson.

Now what about motive here? We`ve heard domestic abuse. What exactly does that mean? And can you define the motive a little bit better?

CHANEY: Right now, we just have the preliminary reports that it is just domestic-related. We have no other updates right now for that. I know that the William Balfour who they are looking -- the suspect that has taken the boy, reportedly stole the brother -- the dead brother`s vehicle, the white Chevy Suburban.

I believe that is on the AMBER Alert. So we`re just waiting.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: What are they looking for now in terms of a vehicle, in terms of a suspect description, and in terms of this child?

There is a high-risk child who is missing right now, a 7-year-old boy. His name is Julian, and he is apparently 135 pounds, which is quite a bit of weight for his age, but this is the description we want to give it to you, because if you see this child, and maybe we can put up a picture of this child, immediately contact the authorities.

So what -- what are they looking for in terms of a vehicle, in terms of suspect description?

CHANEY: In terms of the vehicle, he may be in a white Chevy Suburban. On the AMBER Alert, there are the -- Illinois license plate tags, and -- or he may be in a green or teal Chevy Concord four-door. That`s the kind of car that he may be in.

Now, as far as William Balfour, I don`t have his height or weight, but he is an African-American male. He does have some hair on his head. We don`t have much of a description for him right now at this point.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I understand that you`re there at the scene, live, and you`re just watching authorities as they do their preliminary investigation.

Once again, we`re talking about -- and Jennifer Hudson`s publicist has confirmed, in fact, that it`s her mother and brother who have been shot, and of course, Jennifer Hudson won an Oscar for "Dreamgirls." She became famous, initially, on "American Idol," and she was voted off, and people were angry because she is so incredibly talented.

What a tragedy for her.

Donald Schweitzer, former detective with the Santa Ana P.D., what do they do now to find this person and, as we all know, unfortunately, domestic violence is so common?

SCHWEITZER: I think first they have to look at whether or not there has been any family law cases where they can look at addresses on pleadings.

I don`t know if this man was actually living with the victims or not. But if they weren`t, they could go straight to the mother, look for family law pleadings, try to locate where this guy is.

They`ve got to be very careful, though, because this kid`s safety is number one priority, so they`re going to have to be careful in trying to rein this guy back in.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, of course, especially because he could be with this child. And this poor child, who is possibly traumatized by quite possibly witnessing this violence.

Let me go back to Kathy Chaney. Is the child believed to have witnessed the violence?

CHANEY: We don`t know that at this point. When family members came, that`s when they discovered that the boy that was in the home, he was missing.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.

CHANEY: The car was missing, yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re going to have to leave it there. We pray that this child is found OK.

Tonight, CNN Heroes.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Heroes.

DANA DELANEY, ACTRESS: Look how I`ve changed.

I did a television movie called "For Hope," based on the little-known disease, scleroderma. It`s an autoimmune disease, where your body can over produce collagen, rather than making your skin softer it makes it harder. So many people are so disfigured. They don`t want to go out in public and they don`t want to talk about it.

I`m Dana Delaney and my hero is helping to find ground-breaking research to find a cure for scleroderma.

LUKE EVNIN, MEDICAL MARVEL: I`m committed partly because I am a patient. I was diagnosed with scleroderma in 1998. I don`t look sick. And most of the time I don`t feel sick.

But I`ve decided to go make a difference for other scleroderma patients who aren`t so lucky. This can affect almost all the other organ systems.

We still don`t know why someone gets scleroderma. And today it doesn`t have a cure. So I wanted to spend a couple of minutes and see if we could get caught up a little bit.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Turn again on the side, please.

EVNIN: The scientists do feel like there`s someone looking over their shoulder. I think that does drive them to put everything they can into it. It`s hard to cause scleroderma anything but a curse. There are patients out there that I feel are counting on me.

I want to work for them.

DELANEY: Luke just does it. And that to me is a hero. Don`t just talk about it, do it.

ANNOUNCER: Vote now, CNN.com/heroes.

CNN Heroes is sponsored by.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And now a look back at the stories making headlines this week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Stunning developments in the case of missing 3- year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Orlando station WFTV is reporting that someone was on Casey Anthony`s home computer, looking up recipes for the deadly chemical chloroform.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: What mom is online getting a recipe for chloroform? I mean, I`ve looked up chicken pot pie and shepherd`s pie and Waldorf salad. But chloroform?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Friends describe Little Rock, Arkansas anchorwoman Anne Pressly as a kind person. Kind to everyone. But did she have an enemy who would leave her for dead in her own bed?

GRACE: When you have multiple hits that shows a certain rage that screams to me, not random.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The sheriff says Kelly Morris was last seen by her husband and two children at her house. Morris` house was burned the day after she was last seen. Authorities ruled the fire an arson.

GRACE: With me right now is Kelly`s father Pat Currin.

Mr. Currin, what have the children been told about their mom?

PAT CURRIN, FATHER OF MISSING MOM OF 2 KELLY MORRIS: Well, that she`s missing and we`re looking for her.

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: You can combine bleach and alcohol and inadvertently manufacture chloroform. What we really don know are the levels of chloroform. We are hearing trace amounts.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, right there. Right there. BS-o-meter is going off. How do you inadvertently mix bleach with acetone, Kobe?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, let`s stop to remember Army Sergeant Mark Stone, 22, from Buchanan Dam, Texas, killed in Iraq. On a second tour. Also served in Afghanistan. Awarded the Purple Heart, Global War on Terrorism Service Medal and National Defense Service Medal.

He loved restoring his truck and dreamed of being a minister to the troops. He leaves behind father Don, older brother Jason, and best friend Zane.

Mark Stone, an American hero.

Thanks to all of our guests for their insights. Thanks to you at home for tracking this very important case with us. See you tomorrow night right here, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. In the meantime, have a happy and a safe weekend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/24/ng.01.html

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October 25, 2008
Geraldo with Baez

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPONhsyz2Z0

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Nancy Grace 10/27/08

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/27/ng.01.html

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NANCY GRACE

Jennifer Hudson`s Nephew Found Shot to Death

Aired October 27, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. "American Idol" superstar turned Oscar winner devastated. In an apparent home invasion, Jennifer Hudson`s mother and brother brutally murdered in their own home. The "American Idol" star breaks the bank, offering a $100,000 reward for the safe return of her little 7-year-old nephew, the boy kidnapped from the scene.
In the last hours, a little boy`s body has been positively identified as Hudson`s nephew. We are live in Chicago. As we go to air, police announce no suspects. Hudson jets to Chicago to ID the bodies of her family. Tonight, Jennifer Hudson, "American Idol," American dreamgirl, American nightmare.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JULIA HUDSON, MOTHER: All I ask, I don`t care who you are, just let my baby go. Please. (INAUDIBLE) He`s 7. Let my son go. Please, that`s all I ask!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can confirm that the body located inside the vehicle was the body of 7-year-old Julian King.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news out of Chicago today, where police have found a child`s body in the back seat of that white SUV. The boy has been missing since the Friday shooting deaths of Hudson`s mother and brother at their South Side home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tragically, the search efforts ended shortly after 7:00 AM this morning. Chicago police responded to a call of a suspicious vehicle parked at 1313 South Kolin. William Balfour in the custody of Illinois Drew Peterson of Corrections for violating conditions of parole and remains a person of interest in this investigation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOMEZ: And tonight, breaking news. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 19 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?

Headlines tonight. Stunning FBI lab results are in and they confirm death, human decomposition, in mom Casey`s car, along with extremely high levels of chloroform. The stunning FBI lab results torpedo any possibility that pizza or a dead animal was responsible. The massive search for Caylee gears up. Tot mom Casey Anthony in court tomorrow morning. And still not a single visit to the jailhouse by grandparents George and Cindy Anthony. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More details emerge in the case of missing 3-year- old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. A hearing is scheduled hours from now for tot mom Casey Anthony, where a judge is expected to officially charge Anthony with capital murder and six other charges in connection with her daughter`s disappearance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is your daughter in a better place?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: No, she`s not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you worried about her?

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m absolutely petrified. If she was with her family right now, she`d be in the best place. She`s not.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Documents recently released show evidence of human decomposition in Anthony`s car, as well as unusually high levels of chloroform.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The FBI says there are hairs in the trunk that do not show signs of decomposition, and a hair consistent with Caylee`s which does, which could indicate Caylee was alive when she was put into the trunk of her mother`s car and died in the trunk. The FBI says it also found unusually high levels of chloroform, a potentially deadly substance, in the vapors coming from the carpet in Casey`s trunk, more than you would expect from normal human decomposition.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anthony remains behind bars on no bond and could face the death penalty. Meanwhile, Texas Equusearch is preparing to return to Orlando, along with bounty hunter Leonard Padilla, to continue the search for little Caylee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, "American Idol" superstar turned Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson rocked by violent crime.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The singer and Oscar-winning actress Jennifer Hudson and her family, already mourning the deaths of her mother and brother, now have to come to the grips with the murder of a child. Seven- year-old Julian King has been found in that SUV, found dead.

JULIA HUDSON: I love you. Your mama`s looking for you. I`m not going to stop until you come home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just a terribly sad story here. That makes three murders in Jennifer Hudson`s family just in the last three days.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Julian was found on the West Side of Chicago. The body was found early this morning around at 8:00 AM. Soon after, a neighbor walking his dog -- the dog started howling at the car. When police got there, they opened the car and found the boy inside.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seven-year-old Julian King has been missing since Friday, when his grandmother, 57-year-old-year-old Darnell Donerson, and uncle, 29-year-old Jason Hudson, were found shot to death in their Englewood (ph) home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was at least one report that whoever killed the mother and brother in that house blasted through the front door, shooting through the front door, and shot them even before this person got inside.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-seven-year-old William Balfour, the estranged husband of Hudson`s sister, is considered a person of interest.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He spent seven years in prison for attempted murder and carjacking.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`ve got two crime scenes. Oftentimes, there`s a lot of evidence left at a crime scene, and I suspect that we`ll have some evidence that will link us to the killer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I don`t understand it. Straight out to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent standing by outside the victims` home there in Chicago. They`ve got a vehicle turned casket, and they don`t have a suspect? They can`t tell me whose car it is?

SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No. And I`m thinking the same thing you are, Nancy. And I`m also thinking if they`ve had this William Balfour in custody for three days now, who was driving that van around, that SUV around that was just discovered in that neighborhood this morning with the boy`s body in back? Who was that, an accomplice, somebody else?

GRACE: Well, OK, here`s the sticking point with that theory. How long had the vehicle been there? The vehicle could have been there since before the stepfather was picked up.

ROESGEN: Except, Nancy, that we talked to a neighbor today who says he lives three blocks away and that car was not there before this morning.

GRACE: And let me clear up, there is no suspect in custody tonight. This is an apparent home invasion. Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson rocked by violent crime. She flies home to Chicago to identify the bodies of her mother and brother. After breaking the bank, offering a $100,000 reward for the safe return of her little 7-year-old nephew, we can now confirm as we go to air a body has been identified as the little boy`s.

Straight out to Lisa Boesky. Dr. Boesky, you know, if -- this screams domestic violence to me because the front door was actually shot. I don`t know the direction yet. But a burglar doesn`t do that. A robber doesn`t do that. Someone enraged does that. Who in their right mind would take it out on a 7-year-old boy?

LISA BOESKY, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, somebody who wants to hurt someone. They took somebody`s most precious possession. That`s what that kidnapping was all about. And to kill him -- her most precious possession. It looks domestic to me, as well. But someone who knows how to use a gun.

GRACE: Back out to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent standing by outside the victims` home there in Chicago. Tell me what you know, Susan, about the break-in itself, about the mode of attack.

ROESGEN: Well, as far as we know, Nancy, it was a gun. They have not recovered a gun. We understand that the brother was shot first, then the mother was shot. And there is this report going around that whoever did it shot through the door. But Chicago police would not confirm that today.

And Nancy, that`s another reason why some people say maybe it isn`t domestic. William Balfour lived at this house here behind me, where people have gathered for this kind of impromptu memorial tonight. He lived there until the mother kicked him out about six months ago. So he could have knocked on the door, Nancy. He didn`t have to blast his way in if he intended to shoot people inside.

GRACE: And could you tell me, Susan, what this guy is out on parole for?

ROESGEN: Bad dude, Nancy. He spent seven years in prison for attempted murder and carjacking. And yet he married Julia Hudson, the sister of Jennifer Hudson, in `06, after he got out of the pen. And he said that he has -- apparently, he`s known these girls, all the Hudson family, ever since they were kids.

GRACE: And he has not been named a suspect. He is, however, a person of interest. So he only did seven years on attempted murder? In that jurisdiction, he could have gotten up to 30 years for that.

ROESGEN: You know, Nancy, all I can say is this. He`s a person of interest. The police have had him now for three days. Finally, they had no evidence to keep him, and so they got the Illinois Department of Corrections to get him still in custody on a parole violation. Nancy, that makes me think that they don`t have the goods on this guy.

GRACE: Let`s go to Kathy Chaney with "The Chicago Defender." Kathy, how did this all go down?

KATHY CHANEY, "CHICAGO DEFENDER": As far as the whole incident?

GRACE: Yes, tell me.

CHANEY: OK. As far as we know, Julia Hudson, the sister, was actually the one who went inside the home and discovered her mother and her brother dead. And then that`s when she reported her son and the white Suburban that was registered to her brother missing. There is a gunshot that you can clearly see through the front door. So we -- we`re not sure if William Balfour was the one who did it, if he was seen at the home days before or right after. That is unclear right now. And as Susan said, no weapon has been recovered yet.

GRACE: Back to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent standing outside the victims` home. OK, if other family members are there, why did Jennifer Hudson have to go and identify the bodies?

ROESGEN: You know, actually, Nancy, she didn`t. I think that was sort of a misstatement from the Cook County medical examiner`s office. Her sister, Julia, had already identified the bodies. She discovered them, in fact. And it was she who called Jennifer Hudson in Tampa and said, You`ve got to get home here.

GRACE: OK, hold on. I have an Associated Press wire that has just come in that says Jennifer Hudson and six other family members IDed the bodies at the medical examiner`s office via image on video screen. That has just come in.

To Dr. Michael Arnall, board-certified forensic pathologist joining us out of Denver. Is that a new development? You don`t have to go in for them to pull out the body and unzip it, you can actually do it through a video image?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: That`s exactly right. Many modern medical examiners` offices either have closed-circuit TV, or they can view their loved one through a glass window.

GRACE: To Marc Klaas, president of Klaas Kids Foundation. Why the death of the child? Why?

MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, Nancy, I suspect that this had something to do with domestic abuse. Obviously, this was not just some random act. And my theory would be that -- that they took the boy, that there was some twinge of consciousness. The little boy was an ID -- would be able to ID the killer. He took him and ultimately decided to destroy him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think we all still are in a state of shock. You know, it hurts. Can`t do nothing, but it hurts, you know? So we`re together. So we sit and we pray. You know, I don`t know nothing else to do but pray. That`s all I know to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just a terribly sad story here. That makes three murders in Jennifer Hudson`s family just in the last three days. A woman who is from Chicago, she`s considered a local girl, was working at a Burger King when she first auditioned for "American Idol." Now she`s become a big, big star, of course, but she said that always came home to her family`s home, this place where her mother and brother and sister and the boy all lived.

JENNIFER HUDSON, SINGER/ACTRESS: I`ve always had a positive upbringing and positive people around me, you know? So that definitely helped out. And even when I feel down, I`m still -- like, I don`t want to do this anymore, I can`t do it anymore, my mother was there to say, You know what? This is what you have to do. You have to hold on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: "American Idol" turned Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson`s life is rocked by crime. She was extremely close to her mother. Now her mother and brother and 7-year-old nephew have been murdered.

We are taking your calls live. Out to Ellen in New York. Hi, Ellen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Quick comment. Thank you, and especially Mike Brooks, too, and the rest of your team for everything you do.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know how you do this night after night.

GRACE: I don`t, either. I don`t, either, I can tell you, especially now that I`ve got the twins.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Exactly.

GRACE: It`s just changed everything. You know, I thought I knew it all about being a crime victim until I had them. And I just can`t imagine what Jennifer Hudson is going through right now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t, either. And my question -- I have two quick questions.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One is, is the Suburban that they found her poor nephew in -- was that the car originally reported stolen from the original crime scene? And have they not -- or have tests not come back yet on any gunshot residue that may have been on the ex-brother-in-law?

GRACE: Excellent question. Out to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent standing by tonight outside the victims` home there in Chicago. What do we know about the vehicle stolen from the scene?

ROESGEN: Nancy, it was reported stolen right after the bodies were discovered. It was Jason Hudson`s, the brother`s, car. Reported stolen, it was part of the Amber Alert, so the cops were looking for this car everywhere, even across state lines. They brought in the FBI. And then they found it less than 20 miles away from where I`m standing right now. As far as gun residue, that`s part of the investigation. They have not found a gun or guns, according to the police, and they won`t talk about any shell casings or residue or anything like that.

GRACE: Well, let me clarify. Let me ask you this, Susan. So you`re saying the Suburban that was found with the 7-year-old boy dead inside is the vehicle stolen from the scene?

ROESGEN: Absolutely.

GRACE: So that vehicle, Mike Brooks, is not going to give us any indication as to whom the perp is -- who the perp is because it`s a stolen vehicle unless you can get a fingerprint off of it. Let`s clarify also about the gunshot residue. Gunshot residue -- when you fire a weapon, a little bit -- invisible to the naked eye -- gunshot residue comes back on your hand, on your wrist. It can get on your clothing. It can go about two feet, diameter, from the weapon, when the weapon is fired. However, Mike Brooks, you can just wipe your hands on your clothes, much less, you know, wash your hands, and it`s gone.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes, you can, for the most part, Nancy. But what they`re going to be able to do -- we don`t know if they have gotten any ballistics at all from inside that vehicle. We do know that the little boy, the little 7-year-old boy, he was shot. So what they`re going to do is they`re going to make a comparison from the evidence they have at the original crime scene at the house, and they`re going to compare that to the evidence that they recovered inside that vehicle.

Now, we don`t know if the little boy was shot inside that vehicle or if he was shot somewhere else and then put into that vehicle. We just don`t know that. So we have at least two crime scenes now, Nancy. But there could be another crime scene somewhere, where he was actually murdered.

GRACE: Out to the lines. Sandy in Canada. Hi, Sandy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, hi, Nancy. We love you here.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are a saint. You`re an absolute saint.

GRACE: Well, I do not deserve that, but...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, you do.

GRACE: ... thank you very much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes -- no, you do. I`ve been trying lots. You are. You are a saint. I have a quick question.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or an observation. Is it just me or -- her stardom is wonderful, it`s beautiful, and I think somebody has conspired to -- it`s a money conspiracy thing because of her stardom.

GRACE: So you`re saying that this was for ransom or out of jealousy or they were trying extort money?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

GRACE: OK. Let`s take a look at that. Out to the lawyers. Let`s unleash them. We`re taking your calls live. In New York, defense attorney Randy Zelin and veteran trial lawyer, defense attorney Alex Sanchez. Alex Sanchez, impossible. There was no ransom note that we know of. There was no communication to Jennifer Hudson, I want money. Bottom line is, if you want money in exchange for extortion, you don`t go ahead and kill the target right there on the scene and then expect to get money.

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, I think a lot of suspicion is on this fellow Balfour. But you know, I`m beginning to wonder if this is some type of a gang invasion that has taken out revenge on this family for some still undisclosed reason at this time.

GRACE: But to kill the little boy, Randy Zelin? That`s complete BS. This is not some gang revenge on a mother and a little boy. No.

RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think what we see here is the problem, which is we don`t really know what happened -- the physical evidence, no statements, no weapon, no motive. And that`s part of the problem of pointing a finger too quickly. Balfour`s biggest problem is he was on parole. He loses all of his rights. He`s got no 5th Amendment privilege. He doesn`t cooperate, he gets locked up and they`re going to let him sit. Alex`s point could be very well taken. We just don`t know.

GRACE: OK, yes, his point was it was some kind of a gang revenge, which is complete BS.

Back to Susan Roesgen, CNN correspondent standing by outside the victims` home. What was Balfour`s picked up for? I mean, he`s on parole, but what was his infraction?

ROESGEN: What they`re saying now, Nancy, is because he was not and is not cooperative with the police, and that`s a violation of his parole in this unrelated crime. And you know, Nancy, I`m not so sure the gang stuff is not a possible motive here, or drugs. Who knows now? Really could be - - who knows? This neighborhood where I am tonight with so many people is normally so iffy, we would not even do a live shot here.

GRACE: Susan, Susan, Susan, if it`s a drug problem and you want to get money for a drug debt, why do you kill everybody? You`re never going to get money that way. That doesn`t even make any sense. Let`s kill a little 7-year-old boy? Uh-uh!

ROESGEN: Maybe they didn`t want money, Nancy. Maybe it was to send a signal. I don`t know.

GRACE: OK, well, you know, that`s a great theory maybe in a novel or in a movie. But with all of the drug trafficking cases I`ve ever handled, I have never seen this type of revenge. I think that motivation is going to be a lot closer to home.

Everyone, when we come back, Diana DeGarmo, "American Idol" finalist and dear friend of Jennifer Hudson, joins us exclusively.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a tragedy. It`s a tragedy. Its should have never happened. Should have never happened. And to a kid 7 years old? No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Over the weekend, Hudson offered a $100,000 reward for 7-year-old Julian King`s safe return. But today, Chicago police found a body in the back of this stolen SUV and confirmed it was Hudson`s nephew. It is a terrible blow for the big city star with home town roots, the dream girl who could not have dreamed of such personal tragedy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Joining us right now, two very dear friends of the "American Idol" superstar Jennifer Hudson, Diana DeGarmo, "American Idol" finalist, and friend and neighbor of the Hudson family Stephanie Patton (ph). To Diana DeGarmo. Thank you for being with us. I understand that Jennifer Hudson was extremely close to her mother.

DIANA DEGARMO, FRIEND OF JENNIFER HUDSON: Very much so. Very much so. And I can only imagine what she`s going through. Actually, the last time I saw Jennifer, her brother was with her. And every time, you know, we were on the show, Jennifer always talked about her mom because I was there with my mother and she always said how much she missed her mom and how much she wanted her to be there. And her mother was a delightful, delightful person, and I can only imagine what she`s going through.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Tragically, search efforts ended shortly after 7:00 a.m. this morning. Chicago police responded to a call of a suspicious vehicle parked at 1313 South Colon. The call was received at 7:06 a.m., and called in by a community resident.

The vehicle was parked on the street in front of a residence and matched the vehicle description of the white Suburban, license plate X584859, listed on the AMBER Alert.

At this time, we can confirm that the body located inside the vehicle was the body of 7-year-old Julian King.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: The "American Idol" superstar jetting to Chicago to identify bodies left behind, her mother, her brother, her 7-year-old little nephew, all murder victims.

Joining us right now, a very dear friend of Jennifer Hudson from "American Idol," you all remember Diana DeGarmo. Also with us, Stephanie Patton, a neighborhood and friend of the Hudson family.

Ladies, thank you for being with us.

We are taking your calls live. To Stephanie Patton -- Miss Patton, again, thank you for being with you. Were you home.

STEPHANIE PATTON, FRIEND, NEIGHBOR OF JENNIFER HUDSON`S FAMILY: You`re welcome.

GRACE: . at the time of the shooting?

PATTON: Yes, I was.

GRACE: Did you hear or see anything?

PATTON: I didn`t hear anything. I didn`t hear anything. The kids were out of school that Friday. It was quiet morning. You know, I left about 10:00, and I didn`t hear anything. I get back about 2:30 and the police were out here.

GRACE: Have you spoken to any of the family members since this happened?

PATTON: No, I haven`t. No.

GRACE: And could you tell me how well you knew the Hudson family?

PATTON: My kids played with Julian, and I knew Jason. I didn`t really know Miss Hudson very well. You know, I just heard of her. You know, and I knew she lived here when Jennifer won the Oscar, you know, that`s when I first found out she lived here.

You know, I`ve lived here for seven years. And, you know, I knew Jason, always giving barbecues, and that`s it.

GRACE: Tell me what the little boy was like.

PATTON: A nice little boy. He reminded me of my little boy. That`s why I really took notice to him, you know. A lot of kids out here play together, you know. But he was a nice little boy, polite. Reminded me a lot of my little boy. Very pleasant to be around.

GRACE: How is the neighborhood reacting to what`s happened?

PATTON: Well, we are devastated. We`re devastated, you know. This could have happened to any one of us, our family, and we`re -- that`s why we`re out here. Many of us have been out here since Friday, nonstop, you know, just to give our support to the Hudson family.

GRACE: Back to Diana DeGarmo, "American Idol" finalist, I know that you guys were very, very close during the "American Idol" contest, and you have remained in contact since then.

How did all of the fame and the Oscar change her, if it did?

DIANA DEGARMO, "AMERICAN IDOL" FINALIST, FRIEND OF JENNIFER HUDSON: It didn`t change her personally. It definitely made her a lot more popular. You couldn`t really exactly go out anywhere without seeing her name somewhere or people recognizing her.

But she was the most wonderful person during the show, after the show, after winning her Oscar, you know, having all this notoriety and all this fame. She was still just wonderful to be around and it was great to, you know, think that I was just one of her friends from "Idol" and she was still friends with me, too.

GRACE: So she remained true to you as a friend after all this time.

DEGARMO: Definitely. And I know how close she was to her mother. I mean she talked about her mother very often, even when we were on the show and tour, she always talked about her and -- because I had just my mother and she was -- said that it kind of reminded her of herself with her mother.

And I can -- I mean I can only imagine what she`s going through. It`s just utter, utter heart break.

GRACE: And didn`t she just become engaged?

DEGARMO: She did. And, you know, she`s having so many wonderful things -- you know, coming to her with a brand-new CD that`s number one, a new movie out, all this, you know, wonderful things, getting engaged and planning a wedding and to have such a huge catastrophe happen.

I mean she basically lost almost her entire family in one day.

GRACE: How -- who`s left in her family?

DEGARMO: I mean, she has a few other siblings, but her mother and her brother, Jason, and her nephew, and that really close family, that was it. And you know, her father was not a part of her life very much, and I just - - I know just from how she was on the show, that I can only, only imagine. It`s just -- it`s really terrible.

GRACE: Thank you to Stephanie Patton and Diana DeGarmo, "American Idol" finalist and friend of Jennifer Hudson.

Everyone, right now, we`re switching gears quickly. We are still taking your calls live, but I want to give you the latest in the search for Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: New developments today in the case of missing 3-year-old toddler Caylee Anthony. As tot mom Casey Anthony sits behind bars awaiting trial, a judge is expected to officially charge Anthony with capital murder and many other charges related to Caylee`s disappearance.

Anthony has pled not guilty and could be facing the electric chair or lethal injection.

Also today, Texas Equusearch being preparations to return to Orlando where they will be joined by Leonard Padilla and others helping to find the remains of little Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: New developments today in the case of missing 3-year-old toddler Caylee Anthony. As tot mom Casey Anthony sits behind bars awaiting trial, a judge is expected to officially charge Anthony with capital murder and many other charges related to Caylee`s disappearance.

Anthony has pled not guilty and could be facing the electric chair or lethal injection.

Also today, Texas Equusearch being preparations to return to Orlando where they will be joined by Leonard Padilla and others helping to find the remains of little Caylee.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams, joining us from WNDB News Talk 1150.

Mark Williams, a lot is happening in the case right now. Number one, stunning FBI lab results are back. We know what they say. Number two, the search for Caylee is gearing up. And number three, still, no visits whatsoever to the jailhouse from tot mom`s family.

Number one, the FBI results, give it to me in a nutshell.

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, first off, Casey Anthony tomorrow is going to proclaim her innocence in court. Judge Stan Strickland expected to accept her not guilty plea in the first-degree murder indictment handed up.

Also, this is -- this is all against the odds that have shown up, Nancy. For example, the facts that -- that they found the hair samples in the car, they -- match a little -- they match Caylee or Casey. It`s not really conclusive, but that hair has the death band on it.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait just a minute. Don`t start up with me. You`re tuning up. First thing about it`s not conclusive.

First, to Dr. Michael Arnall, board certified forensic pathologist.

Dr. Arnall, let`s just break it down. The hair matches either Casey Anthony, the tot mom, or Caylee, the little girl. It`s got a death band on it. What does that say to you?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: It says that the person who is, obviously, deceased is decomposed. It could be Caylee. It could be Casey. But, of course, Casey is not decomposed.

GRACE: So, bottom line? Break it down, so Mark Williams will get it.

ARNALL: Well, you know, the mitochondrial DNA is not as specific as nuclear DNA.

GRACE: Oh, come on, Dr. Arnall. The U.S. government has been using it for decades to identify fallen soldiers overseas. Come on.

ARNALL: Right. And what happens is the same thing is going to happen in this case. They`re going to combine the circumstances of the case.

The probability that a person with that mitochondrial DNA was somehow mysteriously found in the -- the trunk of Casey Anthony is going to suggest that it is probably only one person, and that only one person is Caylee Anthony.

GRACE: With me right now, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist, joining us out of John J. College of Criminal Justice. And he is a paid consultant on the Anthony defense team.

OK, give me your best shot, Kobe.

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, Nancy, quite simply, as you just heard, mitochondrial DNA profile is not unique. In fact, not only does Caylee and Casey share the same profile, but so does Cindy and so does Lee, the brother.

GRACE: Yes, they`re all alive. They`re all alive, Kobe.

KOBILINSKY: Yes, they`re all alive. And.

GRACE: So what`s your point?

KOBILINSKY: The point is, is that it`s very important that when we talk about this hair, and we say that it`s Casey or Caylee, that is just not the case.

GRACE: OK. You know what?

KOBILINSKY: That`s not scientific.

GRACE: You know what, Kobe? I`ll give you your point. So the hair could be Lee Anthony, Casey Anthony, Cindy Anthony, or Caylee Anthony. Only one person out of that bunch, we don`t know if she is dead or alive. That would be the 3-year-old.

KOBILINSKY: Right. How about the.

GRACE: Do you agree with that?

KOBILINSKY: How about the other people, Nancy, that are unrelated that still have the same mitochondrial DNA profile? Can we rule that out?

GRACE: Such as who? Such as who?

KOBILINSKY: Well, there are people in the population who share.

GRACE: Who?

KOBILINSKY: . that identical profile. Such as who, I don`t know the names, but the statistics prove that there are others that share that same profile.

GRACE: Really? About how many others, Kobe?

KOBILINSKY: I think the -- the statistics are in the report. I don`t have it in front of me. But about.

GRACE: How convenient.

KOBILINSKY: Well, it`s the facts. It`s not a matter of convenience.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you`re worried that.

ANTHONY: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: . if we find that out that people are going to look at you a wrong way?

ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission.

ANTHONY: She`s.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: . and hasn`t returned her?

ANTHONY: . the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Sources say someone at the Anthony home looked up chloroform on the Web around the time of Caylee`s disappearance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A parent, usually a mom, will put a kid to sleep by covering over the nose and mouth or something and cause her to lose consciousness.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Bond(ph) says the practice is more common among young moms who don`t want to be bothered by a crying baby. Bond says it`s a dangerous practice, because you don`t know how much the child is inhaling. It can shut down the respiratory system, the brain and then the heart.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Stunning FBI lab results are in. Tot mom Casey Anthony in court tomorrow morning. We believe she will enter a not guilty plea, and the search for little Caylee gears up.

Out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California, you are taking part in the search, joining forces with Texas Equusearch, and you`re rounding up bounty hunters from all over the country to help search.

Where are you going to start?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, ASSISTING IN EQUUSEARCH EFFORTS FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: We`re going to start with meeting with Tim on the 7th so that we have everything organized. We`ve got -- according to what Tim told me this past Saturday, we`ve got over 7,000 people, closer to 8,000 that have actually called his headquarters.

And I get 50 to 100 calls a day from people that are wanting to join. And he also said that we`re close to the -- I shouldn`t say "we." It`s his program -- close to the $50,000 mark.

We hope that we will be geared up with at least 8,000 people to search starting the morning of the 8th.

GRACE: You know, when you got in the bounty hunting business, I`m sure you never believed that you would be tromping through the -- Florida woods looking for a little 3-year-old girl.

Tell me why you are so convinced she will be found there.

PADILLA: Well, I was just talking to my nephew, Tony, here. And I said, you know, Tony, the last thing I -- the last words I had with Casey when I walked out of the house when she told me to leave was I turned to her and I told her, I said, I`m going to find Caylee, with or without your help.

We`re going to find the little girl there because she`s never -- Casey was never off that phone. And as long as she had that phone in her hand, she was using it. And we have the cell towers pretty well plotted out on a map.

We know where she was on certain days. And we know that the child was in the trunk of the car on the 18th. We know her dad believes -- George believes that the child was in the trunk on the 24th. And she parked the car by dumpsters to either mask the smell or put the child in the dumpster.

So we`re going to start looking for the -- the signals that were sent to the towers between the 26th and the 30th -- actually, the 26th and the 27th. The 27th is the most important, because on that day, she walked from her boyfriend Tony`s house, got in the car, drove to her mom`s house, called JCPenney, and then she spent 18 minutes in an area there that`s not that large.

That`s where we`re going to start on -- on the 8th.

GRACE: To Mark Williams with WNDB News Talk 1150, where the pings are that Padilla is talking about, does that coincide with those three sightings of her? Those alleged three sightings? The two men until vehicle together, and then the one woman?

WILLIAMS: Right in that area, Nancy. She made more than 70 calls, according to Tony Pipitone with Channel 6 News here in town. I mean not only was she a texting queen, but she was on this phone constantly.

And that`s their area of search. It`s a wooded area, it`s flat. You know -- and they had to call off the search, Nancy, originally, a couple of weeks ago, because we had that tropical storm.

GRACE: Right.

WILLIAMS: . that flew through here and now, of course, things have drained away and things will be just fine for them.

GRACE: Weigh in, Mike Brooks?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Nancy, I think that cell phone pings, that is crucial to this, just as Leonard was saying. And I think that there -- if you take a look, you look at this right here.

This is, as they said, electronic footsteps, and that`s right on target. I think they will be able to -- to take it to that one area. And with those three -- with those three separate sightings, I think that most likely that`s most likely where you`re going to find little Caylee.

GRACE: Mike Brooks, do you believe there has been a tap on their telephones ever since she got out of jail until she went back in?

BROOKS: You know, as an investigator, I wouldn`t be surprised. I mean you never know who she`s going to call. She`s been sitting in that house. Before she went back to jail, she was sitting in that house, she was over at her attorneys.

I would -- either a tap or at least a pen register that registers that all of the numbers of the incoming and outgoing calls.

GRACE: To Marc Klaas, president of Klaas Kids Foundation -- Marc, is there any chance that she is still alive?

MARC KLAAS, CHILD ADVOCATE, PRESIDENT, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION PRES., KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: No, there`s no chance that she is still alive. But I have real concerns about this upcoming search.

If you`re going to have 8,000 people that are untrained trampling over an area where you`re really not sure if you`re going to find the body or not, several things are going to happen.

First of all, you could easily trample and destroy evidence. Secondly, if you don`t find her, and you suggest that she is there, and you don`t find her, you`re giving the defense a great argument in favor of the fact that she might still be alive.

So I think that this whole thing sounds really half-baked to me.

GRACE: But, you know, that`s the only way, Marc Klaas. It`s the only search.

KLAAS: No, it`s not the only way.

GRACE: Who else is searching? Nobody else is even searching.

KLAAS: You know what, it`s a really big world, Nancy, and she`s a very tiny little girl. And until you have some compelling reason to be in an area, you shouldn`t be in that area.

And if you are, you don`t take 8,000 untrained people and have them just nilly-willy going through that area. This is something that has to be done in a very -- in a very organized way and a very professional way, so that you don`t trample evidence, so that you`re able to maintain it, and so that you can then either recover the little girl, or find something that can be used against Casey in a court of law. Not something that`s going to provide her with an excuse.

GRACE: I want to go to Drew Petrimoulx, with WDBO Radio.

Drew, are the volunteers being given guidance by police or by professional searchers?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Well, what they have done is they`re actually asking to enlist ex-firemen, ex-military personnel, ex- police, and like Leonard said, he`s bringing down a bunch of bounty hunters.

And what they`re going to do is meet with Texas Equusearch and be team leaders and provide some kind of training to them, that way they can go out in teams and kind of supervise these people so it`s not just, you know, random people stumbling around in the woods, that could.

GRACE: Exactly.

PETRIMOULX: . in fact, you know, destroy some evidence.

GRACE: Exactly. Let`s unleash the lawyers, Randy Zelin, Alex Sanchez.

Randy Zelin, even if a volunteer finds evidence that would come into court, there`s no statute that says a cop has got to find the evidence.

RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: 100 percent, but I think Marc`s point is a great one -- when you talk about evidence, and you know this as well as anyone, Nancy -- chain of custody, reliability, laying a foundation.

You have people trampling all over the place, they could be screwing up evidence. You`ve got to lay proper foundations, chains of custody.

GRACE: OK.

ZELIN: People all over the place? I think it`s a horrible idea.

GRACE: Alex Sanchez?

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Marc`s point is -- it`s very significant. If they do not find evidence of the child there, the defense is going to make a lot of hay out of that when it comes to the trial. And that could damage the prosecution.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Straight out to the lines. Jill in Maryland, hi, Jill.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for all you do.

GRACE: Thank you. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do we have any idea if the car that was seen by the woman and the car that was seen by the man with the girl coming out with the straw hat were seen on the same road in the same place on the same day?

GRACE: To Mark Williams, I believe they were generally the same description of the vehicles. What about the dates?

WILLIAMS: Well, the dates were right in there someplace. There was a gentleman from an auto auction that saw this woman coming out of the woods with a shovel, a floppy hat and glasses.

GRACE: Right.

WILLIAMS: And, you know, that was the same sighting for -- that was seen in that area. You know, we got the sample of the -- some of the hair samples back from the shovel, and they don`t match Casey`s. So who knows?

GRACE: What I`m asking you was about.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

GRACE: . the dates of the sightings?

What about it, Drew Petrimoulx, quickly? Are they the same dates?

PETRIMOULX: Not the same dates, they are.

GRACE: OK, got it. All I just needed was a yes or no.

But, Leonard Padilla, that doesn`t mean that they`re not both true. We saw Scott Peterson go back and back and back to the scene of the crime.

PADILLA: I`m more interested in the two cans of deodorant that were found wrapped up in a cold shopping bag inside of a Target bag. And.

GRACE: Why, may I ask, are you more interested in two cans of deodorant?

PADILLA: Because there -- to deodorize the trunk in the car.

GRACE: Excellent point, excellent point.

PADILLA: And they were found basically where she would have been commuting to and from her home and Tony`s house.

GRACE: Everybody, tomorrow morning, the tot mom is in court, we believe, for a not guilty plea. We`ll be taking your calls live tomorrow night on that topic.

So let`s stop now and remember Army Specialist David McCormick, 26, Bay City, Texas. A second tour. Remembered as a proud Texan. Trained Iraqi soldiers as peacemakers and taught friends overseas about beef jerky.

Planned to pursue a Masters degree in business administration. Dreamed of joining the Coast Guard. Leaves behind mother Anna, brother Will, also in the army, and two sisters.

David McCormick, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/27/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Hudson`s Nephew Confirmed Gunshot Homicide

Aired October 28, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET
<snip>
GRACE: OK, everybody, we`re switching gears. The tot mom in court today. Her case in court today. She pleads not guilty to murder one. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: My daughter has been missing for the last 31.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I found my daughter`s car today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The smell that I smelled inside that car was the smell of decomposition.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: Maybe my daughter ran over something.

CINDY: I don`t know what your involvement is, sweetheart. You`re not telling me where she is at.

CASEY: Because I don`t (EXPLETIVE DELETED) know where she`s at. Are you kidding me?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Kathi Belich with WFTV.

Kathi, not guilty.

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: That`s right. The judge accepted her not guilty plea today, her trial has been set for January 5th. And also today, 1800 pages worth of tips released to the public. Most of them so far from psychics.

GRACE: From psychics. To Drew Petrimoulx from WDBO -- Drew Petrimoulx, why was she a no-show in court -- why didn`t she stand up -- even O.J. Simpson stood up and said, "100 percent not guilty." Why not her?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: She had already entered the plea of not guilty, and because of that, neither her or her lawyer were actually in court when the judge accepted the plea today.

One thing that`s important to note about the date, it was actually moved up to January 5th from an original date of February 9th. And that`s important, because, you know, investigators wanted to move up the date, because basically, you know, they`re saying they`re ready to get this trial on, they`re comfortable with their evidence, and even without the body, they`re ready to start the trial now and put pressure on the defense.

GRACE: But, of course, at this juncture, still, no demand for speedy trial by the defense. And no change of venue request by the defense. Is that correct, Drew?

PETRIMOULX: That`s correct. And, you know, it would be hard to imagine that they could hold a fair trial in Orlando at this time, but to the date there hasn`t been anything requested for a new change.

GRACE: OK. Don`t know what they`re thinking.

And Kathi Belich with WFTV, has the state announced anything about seeking the death penalty?

BELICH: No, it has not made that decision yet. We`re told it`s highly unlikely without a body.

GRACE: Huh. Who told you that?

BELICH: Sources.

GRACE: Sources. Well, sources better look into law books, because it is possible.

I want to go to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento. He is now joining the search for little Caylee.

Leonard, what about the tips you got from the public regarding those cell pings?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: Well, we -- you know, everybody is on the same page. There is this area where these pings come in from. Starting the 15th is when they started checking them the night that we feel she left the house.

And we have worked them all the way to the 30th when the car was towed. And I think the feds have the same information we have.

Nick, the -- Nick Savage, the gentleman with the FBI, has that information. The people with the sheriff`s office have it.

GRACE: Right.

PADILLA: They all have it. So.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Cindy in North Carolina. Hi, Cindy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is this, Nancy. First of all, just thank you for everything you do.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And your kids are just beautiful. But my question is this: the man or the witness that saw, supposedly, Casey that day with the shovel.

GRACE: Yes. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If she did bury the child in a bag -- I can`t -- I can`t even fathom this, but if she did bury her child in a bag and they do find the body, would you still be able to find traces of chloroform or still be able to determine death if the child was in a concealed bag underground?

GRACE: To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic out of the John J. College of Criminal Justice, he is a paid consultant on the Anthony defense team. All right, take out your defense hat just one moment, and go with the scenario that Cindy in North Carolina has presented you.

If those facts were true, could you detect chloroform?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: I think examining a body for chloroform would really depend upon the state of decomposition. If a.

GRACE: Is that a yes or a no?

KOBILINSKY: If the body is skeletonized, no.

GRACE: If the body is skeletonized, that means skin, flesh, soft tissue gone.

KOBILINSKY: Gone.

GRACE: But if a child were buried in a bag, there would still be remains?

KOBILINSKY: Possibly.

GRACE: There would still be remains.

To Leonard Padilla, how can you protect the chain of custody if the volunteers are out searching and they actually find something?

PADILLA: Well, you have to understand that in searches like this the chain of custody starts when law enforcement takes over the evidence. The individual will stake it and call an expert. There will be plenty of pathologists.

There`s several hundred people that have volunteered for this search that have experience in pathology. There`s retired military, retired law enforcement. They`re not just all civilians.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The charges against you, first-degree murder, aggregated child abuse, aggregated manslaughter to a child, and four counts of providing false information to a law enforcement officer. (INAUDIBLE) entering a not guilty plea for her.

Again, the days are December 11th at 9:00, the pretrial conference, January 5th at 9:30.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight back out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Over 1,000 pages of tips released. These are tips to police and they`re mostly psychics?

BELICH: That`s right. I found four so far and I`ve gone through more than half of them that were not from psychics and they weren`t very specific tips even at that.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Susan Moss, Ray Giudice -- Peter Schaffer. Psychics, that can`t come into court.

SCHAFFER: No. You know those tips won`t come into court but you know, defense counsel will say, why didn`t you investigate this psychic? They could be as right as nibble. Circumstantial case.

GRACE: You know what? You know what?

SCHAFFER: Yes?

GRACE: Ray, why don`t they investigate the psychics? This is a free country. If they want to investigate a tip get after it.

GIUDICE: I think they better come up with a better defense than that. And that`s the problem with the state not finding the body, it leaves all these unfollowed up on tips on the table.

GRACE: Well, you know what, I appreciate your sentiments, Mr. Giudice.

But Sue Moss, the problem with the state not finding the body is that somebody hid the body. That`s not the state`s fault.

MOSS: Amen. And I love Dionne Warwick, too, but that`s not going to persuade a jury.

GRACE: Very quickly, Ray Giudice, no visits from the family. That can`t be good.

GIUDICE: No, that`s judge -- that`s the lawyers` instructions. No more tape recorded conversations, we can`t do that.

GRACE: OK. You know what, you`re right. And I`ll leave on that note.

Everybody, let`s stop for a moment and remember Army Sergeant Marcus Mathes, 26, Zephyrhills, Florida, killed Iraq. Loved hiking, scuba, dirt bikes. Joined the army after being inspired by a country music song by Toby Keith. Also served in Afghanistan.

Leaves behind wife Julia, father Ralph, mom, Sue, step-father Mike, and two brothers.

Marcus Mathes, American hero.

Thank you to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And happy birthday to crazy defense attorney, veteran trial lawyer, Renee Rockwell.

Happy birthday, friend.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/28/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Possible Hudson Nephew Murder Weapon Found

Aired October 29, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET
<snip>
 Stunning new photos released today show tot mom Casey Anthony renting a movie about a kidnapper and killer the same day police believe her daughter, Caylee, was murdered.

The never-before-seen surveillance pictures show Casey Anthony and her boyfriend walking into a local video store hours after her daughter was last seen alive. They rented a movie called "Untraceable" about a kidnapper and killer and "Jumper," about a mother who abandons her 5-year- old child.

The video store worker said there was nothing unusual about the couple.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just seemed like two people who wanted to watch a movie and wanted to get in and get out.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Straight out to Kathi Belich with WFTV, on the day that police theorize little Caylee is murdered, she`s renting two murder movies? One of them is about a child being abandoned by its mom?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: That`s right. They said that when she went to the store, she didn`t show any signs of being upset. She never asked anyone if they had seen her daughter, didn`t look upset that she had lost her daughter, didn`t seem nervous, just didn`t attract any attention whatsoever.

In fact, the clerk at the Blockbuster didn`t even remember helping them until we asked about it, and he saw the video and talked to his manager about it.

GRACE: You know, to Dr. Jeff Gardere, psychologist and author, what does this say about her frame of mind?

GARDERE: Well, it seems that she is fitting.

GRACE: Renting a movie.

GARDERE: Yes, if she did this dastardly deed of murdering her daughter, if she did this, then she fits perfectly into the profile of being a sociopath, meaning that she does not have any conscience and certainly she can almost numb herself.

GRACE: Yes. Yes.

GARDERE: . to what is going on in her life.

GRACE: Even if you want to believe she did not murder the child, if the child was truly missing, what is she out doing renting a video?

GARDERE: Well -- and that also speaks to what we`ve talked about for a long time, Nancy.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, there they are, all snugged up at Blockbuster.

GARDERE: Yes, yes. but very quickly. This is a young woman who has her demeanor and her behavior has been completely inappropriate to anything going on in her life.

GRACE: To Rory O`Neill with West Wood One. Weigh in, Rory.

RORY O`NEILL, REPORTER, METRO NETWORKS: Well, Nancy, the pictures are just bizarre to look at. If you look at them all arm in arm and lovey- dovey, like you say, and then -- and knowing that perhaps just hours earlier that Casey had killed her own daughter.

GRACE: I want to go out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who is now rounding up bounty hunters across the country to join in the search for Caylee, he`s joining us out of Sacramento, California.

Leonard, thanks for being with us. What can you tell me? Can you enlighten me about a new theory that has just been put out there that mom Casey Anthony purchased two crosses from JCPenney`s, one of which she put on little Caylee`s body?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, MET WITH TOT CASE INVESTIGATORS: Well, we started -- myself and Rob started asking about this when we were back there, because Cindy -- when we asked her about the crosses she bought, and where she bought it, she says she bought it at JCPenney`s and bought it for Caylee, which struck us as a bit strange.

So here, two weeks ago, we started checking to see if there was two crosses that had been purchased, one for her and one for Caylee. Now that in and of itself is something that the FBI, I think, has the answer to.

However, going back to the 16th where she purchased those two blockbuster -- rented the two movies. Think about it. The very next day she`s got that boyfriend she is snuggled up to, she`s got his jeep and she`s out there talking to Chris, another guy that she`s jumping in and out of bed with, and driving Tony`s jeep.

GRACE: Hey, Padilla, I don`t care who she is -- as you say jumping in and out of bed with. That`s not a felony.

PADILLA: No, it`s not. But think about the state of mind.

GRACE: If that were a felony, probably everybody on this panel would be behind bars right now.

PADILLA: Think about the state of mind.

GRACE: Yes, state of mind.

PADILLA: State of mind.

GRACE: Let`s talk about that. Susan Moss, Renee Rockwell, Alan Ripka.

Susan moss, he is right. That certainly shines a light on her state of mind.

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely. She said that she was looking for her daughter. But apparently she wasn`t in the Disney section. I don`t know. She is -- after her daughter goes missing, what is she watching the credits to see somebody else`s name to use to blame for this tragedy?

GRACE: To the defense lawyers, Renee and Alan, go ahead and tell me, Renee, how it doesn`t matter, there`s no playbook for grief. Everyone reacts differently.

Go ahead, explain why, even in the best-case scenario with her daughter missing she is out with a boyfriend renting videos.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, at this point, and if you take her story that her daughter is not missing and she is looking for that daughter that time and the one thing that I would do as a defense attorney.

GRACE: No, no, you didn`t finish your sentence. You take it that she is looking for the daughter and -- what? Looking where, in the Blockbuster?

ROCKWELL: At this point -- at this point she -- nobody says that she is -- from her camp, that she`s killed the daughter. She`s given the daughter.

GRACE: No, no. You still haven`t finished your sentence.

ROCKWELL: . to the babysitter. She gave the daughter to the babysitter.

GRACE: Yes, but the daughter is missing and she is out representing murder movies.

ROCKWELL: But Nancy, she is not at this point totally convinced that the daughter is gone. And they look for.

GRACE: No.

ROCKWELL: If you believe what she`s saying.

GRACE: She knows the daughter is gone, on that date, the daughter is already gone, according to her, with Zenaida Gonzalez.

ROCKWELL: And she`s not completely frantic looking for her daughter, which means that if you believe what she says, and I`ll give it to you that she is a fantastic liar, then that plays in with the story that she is just haphazardly kind of looking around for this daughter.

GRACE: Alan, go ahead. Give me your best shot.

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: At the end of the day, Nancy, it doesn`t mean she murdered the child. However.

GRACE: I thought that`s what your best shot would be.

RIPKA: Well, no, it is not. That`s just part of it. However in this particular case.

GRACE: You could have given me the one-two punch. OK. Go ahead, I`m ready.

RIPKA: As she has said all along, she did not believe the child was gone or killed or missing forever, and was searching for this child in her own way with her family and as a result, she`s with her boyfriend trying to calm herself with a movie.

That`s the best there is. That`s the best we got.

GRACE: Calm herself with a movie. Let`s see that video again. I don`t know that calming herself is exactly the way I would describe them walking arm and arm through the murder movie.

Back to Kathi Belich, with WFTV, where do you believe the search is going to commence on November 8th? At what area?

BELICH: Well, we`ve been told that areas near the airport -- 35 percent of the area near the airport where they wanted to search last time was covered with water because of the storm. So they are going back to that area to search again hoping for better luck.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: My granddaughter Caylee Marie Anthony, who`s aged 3, is alive. I`m going to find her. I would give my life right this second to have her be dropped off in front of all of us. I would do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Straight out to Bonnie in Nevada. Hi, Bonnie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Your twins are just adorable.

GRACE: Thank you, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Since the grand jury indicted her on the murder charges, will she still face the fraud charges?

GRACE: She is still facing the fraud charges, not the child neglect charges, though.

To Heidi in Pennsylvania, hi, Heidi.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I love you and I love your show.

GRACE: Thank you, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your twins are gorgeous.

GRACE: Thank you. I`m blessed. What`s your question, love?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is for Leonard Padilla. Does Leonard believe that Casey still has an accomplice?

GRACE: Leonard?

PADILLA: Not at the -- not at the time that she killed the child. Possibly since then individuals have taken up helping her and -- and to some extent Lee himself just sent out an e-mail to a lot of people, stating do not send money to Tim Miller at Equusearch. I don`t want him involved anymore.

A very rude, very rude letter to a gentleman that has done nothing but help the Anthony family. Now if that means that he`s got something that he doesn`t want found, who knows?

GRACE: Leonard, I -- don`t think that Lee Anthony is trying to stop discovery of Caylee`s remains. I think that he just wants the appearance out there that he totally believes the child is alive and that mom Casey Anthony did not kill her.

I think that he and Casey Anthony are very, very close.

PADILLA: That definitely is something but it`s not reasonable to stop something that -- it doesn`t hurt.

GRACE: OK, with that, I agree.

PADILLA: It doesn`t hurt.

GRACE: Yes, I agree. I agree.

PADILLA: Because he can still look for Caylee as if she`s alive. Let the people like Tim Miller`s people look for her in that state of not being alive.

GRACE: Agree.

PADILLA: But he goes out and look for her being alive. He hasn`t done anything.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop. I want to remember Army Private First Class Adam Marion, 26, Mount Airy, North Carolina, killed Iraq. Awarded the Purple Heart and other medals including the Bronze Star.

Always smiling, loved golf, hunting, mentoring children. Leaves behind parents Pam and Donnie, sister Adrienne.

Adam Marion, American hero.

Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. And, tonight, a special thank you goes out to Laura Simmons from Harker Heights, Texas for this beautiful cross point. It`s for the twins. It says, "Like two peas in a pod, two gifts from God."

Thank you, Laura.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night at 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/29/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE
Aired October 30, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET
Defense attorney Jose Baez questioned five witnesses today including Tony Lazzaro who is Casey`s ex- boyfriend.
<snip>
GRACE: And tonight, police desperately searching for a beautiful 3- year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 19 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?

Headlines tonight. In the last hours, the defense commences questioning state`s witnesses all under oath, and it all centers on the tot mom`s car. This after the FBI confirms death, human decomposition and extremely high levels of chloroform in tot mom`s car. Investigators narrow down the timeline after grainy surveillance video shows tot mom at Blockbuster renting a murder movie and one about a child abandoned by its mother, and on the day Caylee last seen.

This as mom Casey orders personal grooming and beauty items from her private jail cell -- skin care, hair products, stamps, lingerie. Nice! But she does nothing from her cell to help in the search for Caylee, spending her days reading, napping, lounging, watching TV. Some life. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news. The timeline of what happened to Caylee Anthony may be narrowing, thanks to new surveillance images surfacing from a local Blockbuster video, Anthony appearing lovey-dovey with boyfriend Tony Lazzaro (ph) just hours after Caylee was last seen, little Caylee nowhere in the video. Anthony`s defense attorney, Jose Baez, scheduled to depose witnesses for the first time today, witnesses including Casey`s boyfriend, Tony Lazzaro, who told police that after the time Caylee went missing, Casey Anthony would wake up in cold sweats.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

TONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S FORMER BOYFRIEND: I would just wake up in the middle of the night and see that she was sweaty in bed. And I would ask her why, and she said that she would have -- she was having a nightmare or something.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause injury to your daughter, Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is your daughter in a better life?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, she`s not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No more lies. What happened to Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: You mean as the questions are about the chain of custody of the car?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not going to make any comments about strategy or anything like that.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The defense won`t say, but it`s most likely questioning Lazzaro and the others, three employees of Johnson`s Record Service including Simon Birch who was there when Caylee`s grandfather opened the trunk to show that the evidence in the car could have been tainted because it wasn`t secure.

Simon Birch told investigators the smell caused him to fear Caylee`s body was in the trunk in the trash bag that was in there.

The defense also questioned Katherine Sanchez from Amscot where Casey`s car sat for days in the parking lot, again, possibly to show no one was watching the car 24/7.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Are you freaked out about all of this to think that she might have been with you just hours after this happened?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He didn`t answer us to today, but he has said exactly that. Channel 9 was first to show you these color surveillance photos on of Casey Anthony and boyfriend Tony Lazzaro at Blockbuster renting movies just hours after investigator say Casey could have murdered her daughter Caylee.

Lazzaro has told investigators that Casey would not let him near her car when he picked her up at Amscot after she told him she ran out of gas. He offered to help with the car but she told him her father was going to take care of it.

We know now that the car smelled of death and she had tried to keep her father away from the car as well before she had abandoned it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Straight out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. I understand the defense has begun questioning, commenced questioning of state witnesses. Explain.

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Defense attorney Jose Baez questioned five witnesses today including Tony Lazzaro who is Casey`s ex- boyfriend. You`ll remember that we, in the last couple of days, have seen photos from a Blockbuster of them renting horror moves on the day when investigators believe that Casey actually skilled her daughter Caylee.

Also that got questioned today were the manager of the Amscot where Casey dropped off her car and three workers at the tow truck company that towed that car.

Now one of those workers actually accompanied George Anthony when they walked out to the car and he said that the car smelled like another car that he had towed and in that car somebody had committed suicide.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, who is helping the search for little Caylee, what do you make of these witnesses?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPING TO SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, I can only tell the truth and the truth is exactly what they`ve already got in their police reports.

The testimony under oath that, I think, is being taken right now is duplication and I`m sure that Jose would like to try to punch holes in their story, but their stories are very simple, very factual and very truthful. There is nothing he`s going to be able to do to sway them from telling the truth.

GRACE: But on Tony Lazzaro, the other witnesses, Leonard Padilla, are all about the car. Lazzaro has a lot to talk about. That`s her boyfriend, her lover.

PADILLA: Sure. And he`s going talk about exactly what Petrimoulx just said regarding her not wanting him around the car, him going and her demeanor in the movie rental store and also the fact that, yes, he loaned her his jeep while he was gone to New York for almost a week and what she did during that period of time and the fact that on one occasion -- I think it was on the 5th of July -- she took it to a car wash and washed it.

There`s a lot of details that not only he, but Jesse and Chris and other individuals that were involved with her, are going brick into play especially if Jose continues to ask them questions under oath.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Peter Odom, Richard Herman.

Peter Odom, we`re not at trial, so explain to those that are unfamiliar with it how the defense is getting to question state`s witnesses right now under oath.

ODOM: Nancy, there are just a couple of states who allow these pretrial on-the-record interviews. Florida happens to be one of them. This is a trial preparation technique that the defense is allowed to use in Florida.

Witnesses are brought in. They`re put under oath. Everything they say is taken down. There`s no judge present so the rules of evidence don`t apply. All that has to be shown is that the questions are designed to lead to admissible evidence and the defense in this case is going right after the most damning evidence against Casey.

GRACE: To Richard Herman, it`s a bug plus for the defense. This is a preemptive attack on the state`s witnesses.

HERMAN: What a great opportunity. We don`t have this in New York.

GRACE: Yes.

HERMAN: What an opportunity to tie down, lock in the testimony and then be able to use it for impeachment purposes at trial.

GRACE: You`re not kidding.

We`re taking your calls live, to Mary in Georgia. Hi, Mary.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: Hi, dear. I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I live in Macon.

GRACE: Oh, hello to all my friends in Macon, my hometown. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, I wanted to know (INAUDIBLE) inside and why Lee Anthony has dropped out of the picture?

GRACE: Interesting.

Leonard Padilla, we haven`t heard much out of him at all recently. Why?

PADILLA: Well, I think since the FBI and the Orange County sheriff`s office took his DNA, he has kept such a low profile that everybody is concerned as to what he`s doing and a lot of it has to do with him being upset at Equusearch right now because they`re looking for the child.

GRACE: Right.

PADILLA: . as if the child is dead and he`s not.

GRACE: To Kathi Belich with WFTV, I understand the tot mom, Casey Anthony, made quite a list of requests. You know what? She might as well be shacked up at the Hilton for all of the beauty and hygiene aids she purchased.

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: That`s right. She ordered them yesterday, she`ll get them tomorrow, about $70 worth of products, a lot of beauty products, as you said -- lotions, hairstyling products like volumizing shampoo and conditioner, some Chapstick, and some clothing also, some envelopes and some letter-writing paper. But they were mostly predominantly beauty products on that list.

GRACE: You know, what about it, Bethany Marshall?

MARSHALL: Well, I don`t think it`s unusual when somebody is cut off from everyone they`re attached to to invest all their energy back in themselves. Like when a couple divorces, usually they go -- they exercise, they lose weight, they get their nails done. All the libido is invested back into the self.

She has no one to talk to. She`s there all by herself. All of her attention is going to go on to herself and probably for the first time she`s listening to her defense attorney. She`s not spending time via video conference talking to her family.

She had that ah-ha moment when the indictment was handed down and she knows on some level that she`s been had. And so she`s just there by herself in jail focusing on herself.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks -- Mike, I still say that there`s a chance they may make a recovery, that they may very well find something when the search commences.

BROOKS: I really do. And, you know, from what we heard from Leonard Padilla and also from Tim Miller, I think that that is a definite possibility, especially with all the volunteers you`re going to have down there. I just hope the weather holds up.

And, Nancy, you know, one thing that just makes me sick, thinking about them in that video store on the same day where Caylee could have been in the trunk of her car, either dying or already dead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Quickly, out to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist, joining us out of John J. College of Criminal Justice, a pay consultant on the Anthony defense team.

Kobe, why do you insist that the evidence is weak in this case with that hair?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Well -- but there are -- I mean there are a number of items of physical evidence in this case. Physical evidence is really the heart of the state`s case. And some of it is soft. Just plain soft. And I think there are questions.

GRACE: So you don`t believe in cadaver dogs?

KOBILINSKY: Well, I do up to a point. I.

GRACE: Oh really, what point is that?

KOBILINSKY: Yes, I.

GRACE: When you get paid in a case, is that when you quit believing in them?

KOBILINSKY: Not at all. I think these dogs alert and that`s a presumptive positive. That means that there could be something to investigate further. It doesn`t mean that there`s human decomposition.

GRACE: OK. Put Kobe back on the screen, please.

So you`ve got two separately -- dogs that hit separately, two cadaver dogs, highly trained. You have air samples from the Body Farm saying there`s a dead body, human body in that trunk.

KOBILINSKY: No, that`s not correct.

GRACE: OK. Explain to me.

KOBILINSKY: That`s not correct. If you read the report, the conclusion is that there could be human decomposition and there could be animal decomposition. The report is weak.

GRACE: You know what? You are right. You are right about that. But how do you explain that the cadaver dogs only hits on human remains and there is a.

KOBILINSKY: No, that`s.

GRACE: No, No.

KOBILINSKY: I`m not convinced.

GRACE: Well, you`re not convinced but that`s not what statistics say. And what about the hair with a death band on it?

KOBILINSKY: Well, again, there`s mitochondrial DNA involved in that particular hair. And that is not a unique profile. I`ve heard people say it`s either Caylee or Casey. That is incorrect.

GRACE: But we know that Casey -- you know what? I`ll save my argument for another day because right now I want to remember Army Staff Sergeant Clay Craig, 22, Mesquite, Texas killed Iraq, on a third tour.

Proud to serve his country. Loved family, making others smile, taking nieces to the movies, dreamed of a military career, college and teaching history. Leaves behind parents Debbie and Roger, seven siblings, including sisters Nita and Michelle, widow Cynthia, baby girl Isabelle.

Clay Craig, American hero.

Thank you to our guests but especially to you for being with us. See you tomorrow night 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/30/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Casey Anthony Attorney Being Investigated for Hugging his Client

Aired October 31, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight. The desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl named Caylee, little Caylee not seen for 19 long weeks. Mom Casey Anthony sits behind bars, not a single visit from family, only jailhouse meetings with her attorney.
And now we learn defense attorney Jose Baez gets a little too close for comfort, Baez caught hugging Casey Anthony behind jailhouse walls in direct violation of strict security rules. Now, reports are that the Florida bar is even launching an investigation.

Grandparents George and Cindy speak out for the first time since the release of bombshell forensic evidence, the Anthonys still insisting little Caylee is alive and say mom Casey will go to prison for life to protect her little girl. Five thousand tips pour in, as mom Casey caught on surveillance video renting a murder movie on the day Caylee was last seen. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news, George and Cindy Anthony speaking out for the first time since forensic tests from the FBI show evidence of decomposition and chloroform were present in Casey Anthony`s car.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: George and I don`t believe that Caylee is in the woods, or you know, out there. We believe someone has her and that she`s alive. Exact spot? We`re getting close. The actual why? We pretty much -- you know, we feel we`re on the right track. We believe and we`ve believed from day one that Caylee has not stayed in the same place for very long. We believe that she`s been moved numerous times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony behind bars facing murder charges, but that hasn`t stopped her defense attorney, Jose Baez, from hugging her not once, but twice, inmate contact strictly against security policy, Baez eventually telling officials he didn`t intend to break the rules and would make an effort to remember.

LALAMA: And tonight, "American Idol"superstar turned Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson devastated by violent crime. Hudson`s mother and brother brutally murdered in their own home, her 7-year-old nephew kidnapped from the scene, then confirmed dead from multiple gunshot wounds.

Just moments ago, police announced they have the murder weapon. Forensics confirm a .45-caliber handgun recovered in a vacant lot is the same used in the Hudson family murders. Jennifer Hudson under tight security. A private funeral set for Monday. Tonight, an "American Idol" tragedy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chicago police have identified the weapon that killed Hudson`s brother, mother and her nephew. Today they confirmed that the gun they found Wednesday is the same weapon used in all of the murders.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The weapon itself is a .45-caliber semi-automatic handgun.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police are still trying to figure out whether the gun could be linked to the person of interest. That person is William Balfour, the estranged husband of Hudson`s sister, Julia.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s a person of interesting, but that`s not to say that there`s not other individuals that may turn up.

MICHELE DAVIS BALFOUR, MOTHER OF PERSON OF INTEREST: If Julia felt that William was a threat, don`t you think she would have put a restraining order on him?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What if it`s the wrong guy. Balfour`s been locked up in custody for six days now. They haven`t found anything? They`re probably water boarding him in there, and yet they haven`t found anything on him.

BALFOUR: So it`s always two sides of the story. You all are painting him, portraying my son as being the worst scum of the earth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: Good evening. I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee Anthony.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news, Casey Anthony`s defense attorney, Jose Baez, has been reprimanded not once but at least twice for hugging his client during jailhouse visits, touching a client strictly prohibited for fears contrabands could be passed, Baez originally upset and told jail officials he hugs all his clients.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey spent several hours a day in her attorney`s office while on home confinement. Many speculated why the mother of missing Caylee was spending so much time there.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: I would implore you as responsible journalists to question what`s going on here. You can all understand why she`s spending so much time in my office.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The jail says Casey Anthony has every right to work on her case with her attorney and her house arrest cannot interfere with that. But six hours every day for a child neglect case?

BAEZ: And I don`t care what rumor and what speculation is out there. Casey trusts me and trusts that I will do my job.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey, did you kill Caylee?

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: Get away! Get away!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not intimidated, not in any way, shape or form.

BAEZ: Casey is going through a nightmare and has been living a nightmare for the last several months. I would again ask you and employ (ph) all of you to try and understand what Casey is going through and to understand that we have been preparing from day one for the very worst.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: Well, it`s the case of the hugging attorney. Here we go. Mark Williams, news director at WNDB Newstalk 1150, is it true that the state is investigating this?

MARK WILLIAM, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, this is not a trick-or-treat deal whatsoever. There`s a woman in Indiana who saw the story on a Web site of a local TV station. She contacted the Florida Bar Association, the association now looking into the case of the attorney hugging his client.

Attorney Jose Baez says he hugs all of his clients. However, he was caught twice at the Orange County jail hugging Casey Anthony. The last time that we know of was on Monday night. He stopped in for a visit, they were hugging, and that, of course, is against jail policy whatsoever. They`re afraid they`re going to pass contraband between one another. So that`s -- that`s where that is right now.

LALAMA: Wow. Well, there`s all kinds of, you know, crazy, tacky things that people are implying as a result of this. Let`s go to our attorneys, and let`s just see how cozy they do get. Anne Bremner, defense attorney, is it OK to hug your client?

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I was just thinking, Pat, have you hugged your lawyer today?

(LAUGHTER)

LALAMA: Well, I live with one, so I`m allowed to.

BREMNER: There you go. We all need a hug sometimes, I`ll tell you. But you know, the fact is, it`s OK. And I went to the Gerry Spence school. He`s one of the best lawyers in the nation, and he says you`ve got to love your client first, and if you don`t, get out. And so you`ve got that affection with your client. You got to really stand behind them. In the jail, a little bit different. But they search -- you know, he`s got -- is he passing contraband? No. This seems to be something that`s really blown way out of proportion in terms of what happened. It was well-intentioned.

LALAMA: You can say what you want about Mr. Baez, but he doesn`t appear to be carrying a file in his back pocket.

BREMNER: Exactly.

LALAMA: I don`t get that feeling. Let`s go right to our callers on this Halloween night. Lisa from Florida. Hello, Lisa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you doing?

LALAMA: I`m well. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a comment. I wanted to know -- have they ever -- or a question, actually. Have they ever found the carseat that the baby was photographed in the picture with?

LALAMA: The carseat? OK, Nikki Pierce, reporter with WDBO radio. What do you know about the baby`s carseat?

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Actually, I believe that it was found in the car when the car was recovered. That was one of the things that made investigators question what the deal was and where Caylee was, because her carseat was there, as well as her doll and a couple of other things that she generally wouldn`t be without.

LALAMA: And of course, our good friend, Lawrence Kobilinsky, forensic scientist, now consultant to the Casey Anthony case. That carseat obviously would have been something that would have been thoroughly investigated.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, there`s no doubt about it, Pat. Anything in that vehicle would have been looked at very carefully, would have been sent to the laboratory, DNA testing, trace evidence testing. Everything would have been reviewed. We haven`t heard anything about it yet, but you know, I think this is potentially, at least according to the state, a crime scene. So there`s no doubt no stone would have been left unturned.

LALAMA: Let`s get back to the hugging incident, since that seems to be the big event of the day. There are some other issues to talk about. He`s seen his client -- Mr. Baez -- seen his client 7 out of 14 days. You know, let me ask Hugo Rodriguez, defense attorney, former FBI agent, is that so odd? I mean, I know lawyers, if they`re interested in -- in the concern for their client, they`re there and they`re there around the clock.

HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think this case is consuming Jose Baez. And I think that when she was out on home detention, the only place she could go was to be with counsel, and she spent an inordinate amount of time there. That was the only time that she could get away. I don`t think there`s anything to that. I don`t think there`s anything to the hugging. People are distraught. It`s an emotionally-based case. He comes in, he sees his client, he hugs her, he sits down and he interviews her. There`s nothing wrong with that at all.

LALAMA: Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, you know, it seems to me he would have been smart to come out and say, Look, my client is in distress, and I`m the only one there for her. He sounded a little bit almost too defensive. Methinks thou dost protest too much, instead of coming out and using it as a positive. Am I just reading way too much into this?

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: It`s hard to tell with somebody like Casey Anthony, who is a chameleon. She plays roles, and here she may be playing the damsel in distress...

LALAMA: Right.

SAUNDERS: ... to his Lancelot, and he`s going to rescue her. But it is kind of strange that he said, reportedly at one point that he didn`t know the rule in the jail. I wouldn`t want a defense attorney who doesn`t know basic rules in jails. It`s a little suspicious.

LALAMA: Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter and helping to search for Caylee Anthony, did you sit close to her?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: ... say something on behalf of Jose. While we were back there for those 10 days, I can tell you this. She went to the office simply to get away from her mother and her dad. I`m telling you. That`s the fact. Jose`s family is just a great family. I may have disagreements with Jose on other things. That was just bad judgment on his part.

And the reason that security prevents contact visits by attorneys is because, look back in the history of the California prison breaks, back in the `60s and `70s. They were always things that were conducted by an attorney, bringing in a handcuff key or gun to a prisoner. And it doesn`t matter how innocent that prisoner looks, the security in those jails has to be firm and it applies to everybody.

As far as what`s going on there, it was just bad judgment on his part on this particular issue. He made a mistake. And you know, it`s just a mistake that he made, you know? He knows what the rules are.

LALAMA: And you know, and just very quickly -- I`ve just got a few seconds -- she does probably -- not encouraging physical contact, but encouraging the "Come to me and help me" sort of routine, which a lot of people could easily fall into. Yes or no, Leonard?

PADILLA: Yes, absolutely. I`ve said this before. The night that she bailed out of jail, she actually fixed dinner for my nephew.

LALAMA: Right, right.

PADILLA: Instead of sitting there and saying, OK, let`s get a plan together, let`s go look for Caylee, she fixed dinner for him.

LALAMA: Right. Yes. I think that`s part of her MO.

All right, as we go to break, new photos of Nancy`s twins. Here are little Lucy, of course, and John David in their pre-Halloween party T- shirts and boo (ph) socks. And here they are in their adorable costumes. Wow! Lucy is a flower and John David is a pirate, and mommy -- we know this is true -- is a tiger. We`ll also post these on the show`s Web site at CNN.com/nancygrace. Good for you, Nancy. Have a great night with the kids.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When Casey Anthony was released from jail back in September, her attorney, Jose Baez, kept her close to him and away from the media. Now that Anthony is back in jail, Baez has been reprimanded by jail officials for hugging his client on two occasions. The first incident happened two weeks ago. A corrections officer saw Baez hug Anthony, and Baez was advised that physical contact with inmates is prohibited. Then a week later, on October 21, another report said Baez was again observed hugging his client.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. You know, it was just in the last 24 hours that Cindy and George Anthony did a media interview, I believe with a local media. They had some interesting things to stay. Of course, they are standing by their daughter, saying that they truly believe that Caylee is alive and floating from location to location someplace around the globe.

All right. I want to go to Detective Lieutenant Steven Rogers, Nutley, New Jersey, Police Department, former member of the FBI joint terrorism task force. You know, I mean, these are grandparents. They want to believe in their daughter. But what do you think of the position they`re taking?

DET. LT. STEVEN ROGERS, NUTLEY, NJ, POLICE DEPARTMENT: This is a law enforcement officer`s nightmare. The position they`re taking is what grandparents would probably take, either hoping that the child is still alive or knowing something and trying to cover it up. It`s just a bizarre case, and this is a tough nut to crack for law enforcement.

LALAMA: Absolutely. Why don`t we go to one of the pieces of sound from George and Cindy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: George and I don`t believe that Caylee`s in the woods, or you know, out there. We believe someone has her and that she`s alive. Exact spot? We`re getting close. The actual why? We pretty much -- you know, we feel we`re on the right track. We believe and we`ve believed from day one that Caylee has not stayed in the same place for very long. We believe that she`s been moved numerous times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cindy and George wholeheartedly believe their granddaughter is still alive and their daughter is innocent.

GEORGE ANTHONY: There`s a lot more to this story than you guys could ever, ever imagine, and it`s all going to come out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: There`s a lot more to the story. Anne Bremner, you know, if you know a lot and you could help the case, why not `fess up and tell us what you know?

BREMNER: Well, sure. But I guess they`re trying to say, it`s like the kind of thing where you try the case, you`ve got the jury in the box, and you say, You know what? Caylee Anthony is going to come in right behind that door right now, and all the jurors look. That`s reasonable doubt. You know, the fact is, she could be alive. And I guess they`re trying to put that specter out there.

LALAMA: That sounds like a movie to me.

BREMNER: That was a movie.

LALAMA: Yes, I think it was, too. Detective Lieutenant Steven Rogers, again, you know, the family is saying that the reason -- she puts it this way. She would go to her grave, she`ll spend the rest of her life in prison because she`s not going to tell what`s going on because it could hurt her child. Could you explain the logic to me?

ROGERS: Well, there is no logic. And I`ve got to tell you, just seeing what I just saw really causes me to believe that there is something they`re not telling us. And you answered -- you asked the right question. If you`ve got all this information, give it to the police and let`s be done with it.

LALAMA: Yes. I mean, to me, I don`t know, I`m just wondering, Hugo Rodriguez, would you just tell the parents please just don`t say anything?

RODRIGUEZ: I would keep everyone quiet, from my client -- as her counsel, I would keep quiet. There`s no reason, there`s no benefit to have any press releases, to say anything. They`re not helping her at all.

LALAMA: Leonard Padilla, could it be a strategy that if they could just convince one potential member of the jury, because they`re these caring -- I`m not saying they aren`t caring, by the way. Let`s just make that sure -- certain. But you know, this could be some sort of a PR strategy.

PADILLA: It`s Cindy Anthony`s way of getting through life. If she is telling the truth, then Special Agent Nick Savage (ph) and the whole FBI, the government is wasting a lot of money on them. I`m old-fashioned. The FBI is not lying. Cindy Anthony is flat-out lying. She knows she`s lying and has got no strategy about the jury or anything like that. She will just lie to convince people that she is right and everybody else is wrong, including the whole FBI structure.

LALAMA: Let`s hear what`s on the minds of our callers. Maureen in Pennsylvania. Hello, Maureen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

LALAMA: Hi.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question. Does anyone know where Casey`s brother was the day she was seen coming out of the woods with the bag with the shovel in it? Could he have been her look-out?

LALAMA: Nikki Pierce, what do you know about that?

PIERCE: We don`t have any information on that. As far as I know, none of the members of the family are being investigated as being an active part of whatever may have happened to Caylee.

LALAMA: And Mark Williams, we know her brother is just sort of out of picture. What`s up with him? Lee, I believe his name is.

WILLIAMS: Lee Anthony and Cindy Anthony at one time, right after Caylee went missing, instead of looking for the little girl, they were trying to figure out where they were going to do their PR blitz at, what television network they were going to be at and what television station that they were going to be on. He has kept a very low profile the past six or seven weeks or so. We have not seen him, nor his black Mustang cruising around Orlando at all. So who knows whatever happened to him.

LALAMA: Yes. He`s certainly not making public statements about his sister, at this point.

To tonight`s "Case Alert," the search for a missing 14-year-old Illinois girl, Simone Boyd, last seen October 20 in the Romeoville area near Chicago. Police reportedly investigating a connection to an Internet predator -- Boyd, 4-11, 130 pounds, with black hair and brown eyes. If you have any information, please call the Romeoville police, 815-886-7219.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey was indicted on first degree murder charges based largely on forensic evidence recovered from her car.

CINDY ANTHONY: There`s no smoking (ph) down here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Air samples and hair samples in the reports that Casey`s lawyer and her parents say are inconclusive at best.

CINDY ANTHONY: I`m angry, and for them to pull that and this is all they`ve got? This is ridiculous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. You know, there`s been 4,000 tips coming in to try to solve this case. And I want to go to Gale St. John, who`s a psychic and host of "The Bodyhunter." And you have tried to search for Caylee Anthony. You know, a lot of people don`t put a lot of stock in psychics. You would, I`m sure, counter that argument with what?

GALE ST. JOHN, PSYCHIC DETECTIVE: Oh, I`m not out here to -- you know, to make people accept, you know, a psychic. Basically, we`re out here and we did what others have done. We`ve gone out. We`ve searched. We still have searches going on. As a matter of fact, there`s a search going on tomorrow with some of our volunteers. You know, so if people want to join, they can go and join up the search.

LALAMA: What have you been able to glean in your psychic investigation?

ST. JOHN: Well, you know, a lot of things that we saw are, you know, things that are common when you get to Florida. So what we`ve done is we`ve taken tips, as well, of our own and others, and we`ve investigated all these tips that have come in because we have our own tip line. And I think just like the police, we have gotten thousands of tips.

LALAMA: Well, I wish you the very best, and the fact that you`re involved is a big thing.

And you know, I have to switch gears really quickly because I`ve just got such little time left in this block. The movies now that we`re finding out that Casey rented with her boyfriend -- "Untraceable," about a serial killer, and "Jumper," about a mother who abandons her child. I`ve got to ask, Lieutenant Steven Rogers, as law enforcement person, does that mean anything to you?

ROGERS: Oh, it sure does.

LALAMA: Really?

ROGERS: Oh, yes. Police officers are going to get those movies. They`re going to look at those movies very closely and they might find a potential plot and motive that she may have carried out through those movies.

LALAMA: Wow! Hugo Rodriguez, what do you think about that?

RODRIGUEZ: Hey, I`m going Blockbuster tonight and ordering five romantic movies, and hopefully, some people will insinuate what I do after that.

LALAMA: Oh, Patricia Saunders, give me a psychology to this, if, in fact, she -- well, give me a psychology.

SAUNDERS: Well, if it was before, then there`s some possibility in what these guys are saying. But if it was after the fact, then it does suggest that this is a person who does not experience normal human emotions or attachments because the last thing you want to see after you lose your baby is a story about murder.

LALAMA: Oh, wow. When we come back, tragedy for "American Idol" turned Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson. A big break in the case. Police confirm they do indeed have the murder weapon.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Recovering the weapon was a good sign.

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Every gun leaves distinctive marks as it goes through the barrel.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Chicago police are confirming now that the gun found in that ally near an abandoned white SUV was indeed used to kill Jennifer Hudson`s mother, brother and nephew.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It was a .45 caliber handgun that was recovered near the place where the missing car and the boy`s body were found.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Chicago authorities are saying Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson`s nephew was probably shot in the SUV where his body was found. Investigators believe Julian King was alive when he left the house where his uncle and grandmother were shot dead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My son`s alibi was with one of his girls. If William did do this, right, no means am I going to sugarcoat anything. My son didn`t do it. I know my son didn`t do this.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: I`m Pat Lalama in for Nancy Grace. And that`s a big break in the case.

Let`s go right to Natalie Thomas, deputy news editor, "US Weekly" magazine. Tell us more.

NATALIE THOMAS, DEPUTY NEWS EDITOR, US WEEKLY: We do now, as you saw in the intro, that police did confirm that they found -- they discovered that the murder weapon was used in the case -- I`m sorry. The murder weapon was used to kill Jennifer Hudson`s family, the gun that was found on Wednesday.

LALAMA: Wow, that`s amazing.

Kathy Chaney, reporter for "Chicago Defender," it`s a lucky break, but it doesn`t mean it belongs to the person of interest, does it?

KATHY CHANEY, REPORTER, CHICAGO DEFENDER: Not, exactly. It does not. The police spokeswoman said that it has been confirmed as the gun, the .45 that was used to kill all three. However, they have not, you know, found out who the gun belongs to, or should I say who killed all three family members.

That has not been determined yet.

LALAMA: And my understanding, am I right, Natalie, that it was traced -- the owner was in Michigan. He said it was stolen. Do we know anything more about that?

THOMAS: We do know that -- just as you said, the owner reported it missing. He lives in Michigan. We do not know how it got from Michigan to Chicago.

LALAMA: Yes, such is the way with guns used in the commission of crimes, correct, Detective Rogers?

DET. LT. STEVEN ROGERS, NUTLEY N.J. P.D., FMR. MEMBER, FBI JOINT TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Oh, yes. They`ll try their best to find out how it got to Chicago. But they`ll try to lift fingerprints, perhaps some DNA. This is a tough one.

LALAMA: Lawrence Kobilinsky, what do they want from that gun and how is it is going to help or hurt the case?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, the gun is the central piece here, linking the three bodies, the two crime scenes, and I think we have to stand by for DNA analysis.

While you can`t get fingerprints off a gun, you usually can get DNA, either a full profile or a partial profile. That`s the evidence that will link the suspect to the crime scenes and the bodies.

Also, back spatter, if it`s present in the muzzle, that will be swabbed and DNA tested, as well. Stand by for those results.

LALAMA: Let`s hear from the callers. Cindy in Pennsylvania, good evening, Cindy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

LALAMA: Hi, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, I`ve read in the "Chicago Tribune" where Jennifer Hudson`s brother was living with the mother because he was recovering from a gunshot wound that he received in a (INAUDIBLE).

Do you know if the cops are following any leads on the brother?

LALAMA: Cathy Chaney, who is in Chicago, what do you know about the brother?

CHANEY: The brother, he has had some trouble, some criminal troubles in the past, and right now the police won`t confirm if they`re looking at leads of whether he may have had some type of linkage to this or not. Police will just not confirm that at all.

LALAMA: Anne Bremner, they may know or may have the murder weapon, but that doesn`t mean they got the murder, correct?

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s absolutely correct. And, you know, when we have a person of interest in this case right now, we don`t have him being called a suspect.

LALAMA: Right.

BREMNER: And interestingly in this case, we hear from Julia, Jennifer`s sister, very little about our person of interest being guilty. And you have to think about, you know, blood is thicker than water. If she thought so, did he kill her mother, her brother and her son, she`d be saying a lot more.

LALAMA: Hugo Rodriguez, you know, he apparently, according to cops, stopped cooperating and refused to take a lie detector test.

Now, in your mind, that`s perfectly OK. But in other people`s minds, it`s like, hey, why not?

HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FMR. FBI AGENT: I haven`t -- no one has verified for me that the authorities have asked him to take a polygraph exam. Because to do that would really complicate issues. They -- the police would have to make great concessions to ask somebody to do that. OK?

And I haven`t seen that yet. There is no benefit to it. None at all. He`s been charged or he hasn`t been charged. He is being held on a positive role violation. They have no evidence to link him to this crime.

LALAMA: Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, I`m really moved by -- I don`t know if moved is the right term, but affected by the violence of this act. The extreme violence. What does it say to you? I mean a gunshot through the door, the guy, whoever it was, is mad before he even got in the door, he or she, whomever.

What does it say to you about the level of violence, taking a 7-year-old child, shooting a 7-year-old child in the head for heaven`s sakes.

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, this is a savage kind of violence that speaks to people who may well be sociopathic, real criminals. Could be gang-related, too. Maybe people who used to live with this primitive level of violence and abuse.

LALAMA: Souleo, I hope I am pronouncing that correctly, entertainment journalist, you interviewed Jennifer Hudson just, what, about a month ago?

SOULEO, SISTER 2 SISTER MAGAZINE, INTERVIEWED JENNIFER HUDSON: Yes, yes, it was about a month ago.

LALAMA: You know, she -- I can`t even imagine what sort of hell she must be in right now. Tell us a little bit about her. What kind of perspective you got from spending time with her?

SOULEO: It was amazing to talk with Jennifer, and my condolences go out to the family. She was someone who was very humble, very down to earth. She came across as just very warm, very giving. Magnetic personality, and someone who cares deeply for her family. So we can only imagine the pain she is experiencing now.

LALAMA: Did she talk about her family with you?

SOULEO: Yes. Yes, she did. She spoke lovingly of her mom and of her brother and sister. About her mom, she said that Jennifer loves to draw, that`s one of other private passions, and she said that her mother inspired her to draw, and she said that her mom said, you know, anything that her mom said that she could do, she ended up doing it, from acting and winning the Oscar to all these successes she has now.

So her mother inspired her and was -- and really kept her grounded and gave her the confidence to succeed, as we are witnessing today.

LALAMA: Have you heard anything about what kind of emotional state she may be in?

SOULEO: No. With something like this, we can only imagine the kind of emotional state. Of course, she is traumatized and in shock and in pain. Jennifer loves her family, so, so much. And I -- you know, I just can`t imagine what she must be going through. Yes.

LALAMA: Unbelievable. Another caller, Tiqua in California. Hello, Tiqua.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, how are you?

LALAMA: I`m well. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. I read that Jason, also along with the gunshot wounds, he suffered defensive wounds. And I was wondering if, William, did he have a swollen -- swollen knuckles or, you know, fighting marks on his body?

LALAMA: Natalie Thomas, what do you -- I thought the defensive wound was with Darnell. Am I wrong about that?

THOMAS: No, I believe you`re correct about that.

LALAMA: OK.

THOMAS: I don`t -- I don`t know. To our knowledge, we`re not sure about wounds on William Balfour`s knuckles. We do know that about a month prior he had gotten into an altercation with Jason, and James Patton who is coincidently Jennifer Hudson`s ex broke it up and beat him up.

William Balfour then became enraged, threatening that he would come back Julia Hudson and the rest of the family.

LALAMA: Wow.

Detective Rogers, you know, I don`t want to pour gasoline on the flames of fear here. But whoever this person is or person or people who are responsible, clearly, I mean, if there`s some sort of revenge act or extreme anger act, exacted on an entire family. Should Jennifer Hudson be concerned?

ROGERS: Well, this case would cause me as an investigator to lean away from any gang connection to someone close to the family. That poor 7-year- old boy who was shot and killed.

LALAMA: Yes.

ROGERS: . he may have been able to identify the killer.

LALAMA: Right.

ROGERS: And that`s why he was executed. So, yes, she should be concerned.

LALAMA: Patricia Saunders, I keep thinking, and I try not to think about, what kind of terror it must have been for that little boy. You know, I don`t know, just try to help us through this.

SAUNDERS: Well, you know, Pat, the mind, the brain has ways of protecting us that only come out in extreme situations. It could be that he witnessed his mother and uncle being murdered and he was so numb and in so traumatized, he was in an altered state and may not have been that aware of the imminent danger that he was -- in.

LALAMA: And it`s very important to talk about the time of death there, Lawrence Kobilinsky, correct? You know, when he died is critical.

KOBILINSKY: Well, that`s true, Pat. The longer the post-mortem interval, the more difficult it gets to pinpoint the time of death. The range is very large. There are methods of, you know, estimating time of death, body temperature, potassium in the eye.

So I`m sure they have some notion of when death took place. But it gets a little complicated sometimes.

LALAMA: Very, very quickly, Detective Rogers, you know, the time of death on that little boy also could point to an assailant or rule out an assailant.

ROGERS: True, it sure could. And like I said, it would cause me to point toward someone close to the family, who he, that young child, could identify.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve still got a lot more to do. There is still a lot more forensic examinations to do. Right now, we`re extraordinarily pleased and satisfied that the weapon has been identified as the weapon that was used in the homicides, and there`s still more work to do, which we are doing at this time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Investigators are looking for the mechanical equivalent of a fingerprint. It`s marked on a bullet each time a gun is fired. The lines are called striations and they allow forensic experts in a lab to connect a weapon with bullets found in a victim.

A police recruit scouring a field found the gun yesterday. It was less than a block from where 7-year-old Julian King`s body was discovered in a white Chevy Suburban stolen from the Hudson family home.

The weapon itself is a .45 caliber semi automatic handgun. That`s the same caliber used to commit the murders of Jennifer Hudson`s mother and brother.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Recovering the weapon was a good sign. It gives us additional clues, and we`re going to keep running them down. Like I mentioned before, I`m extremely confident that this case will be solved.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama in for Nancy Grace.

Kathy Chaney, where is William Balfour, and what happens next?

CHANEY: Well, William Balfour is still in the custody of the Illinois Department of Corrections, being held on that parole violation, and he has a parole status hearing on November 10th to determine whether or not he did violate his parole or not.

LALAMA: OK. Natalie Thomas from "US Weekly," you know, there is talk that he was stopped in June with crack cocaine in his car, and maybe he didn`t go to anger management. What`s up with this guy?

THOMAS: He definitely has a criminal past. He, you know -- as we know, he spent seven years in prison when he was -- beginning when he was only 17 years old for attempted murder, among a list of other things. So he definitely has a shady past and has violated his parole since he has been out. And is not -- you know, a decent character.

LALAMA: Well, they`ll figure out, I guess, at the hearing whether he has violated his parole for any variety of reasons.

And, you know, Hugo Rodriguez, everyone says, oh, rush to judgment, rush to judgment, you don`t know, there`s all kinds of things going on in that neighborhood, why are you pointing to him.

But it seems to me, and I don`t know, but, I mean, he has had some friction with the family. And right now, who else would have a motive?

RODRIGUEZ: You know, I don`t know who would have a motive. But we had a similar situation here in South Florida, unfortunately, where a famous football player, Sean Taylor, was shot in his home. And it turned out to be that someone not immediately related, but who knew of them, and it was a robbery attempt that no one figured out until several days later.

I don`t know. He is a person of interest. They`ll probably violate him for violating his parole, for whatever those charges are, but until they have some concrete evidence, they`re not about to charge him with the homicides in this case.

LALAMA: Anne Bremner, is being a person of interest in a case enough to get you back in the pokey?

BREMNER: No, absolutely not. They`re just going to hold him on the parole violation. I was thinking, you know, the most famous case of a family murdered together was Truman Capote`s in cold blood.

LALAMA: Right. Right. Right.

BREMNER: You know, and so, of course, you just -- you don`t know. And right now they`re just holding him on parole violations and right now he`s just a person of interest.

LALAMA: Entertainment journalist, Souleo, you know, what -- what should then Jennifer do next? I know she`s staying out of the spotlight. Do you think that`s wise for her?

SOULEO: I think that`s very wise. As an artist, you have to live your life and you have to be true to yourself. And right now, Jennifer, she`s not in a condition to be out there promoting her film or her music and, you know, her fans wouldn`t think that it would be respectful, anyway.

So, of course, she needs to take care of herself, keep herself grounded, remember her mother`s legacy, which was, you know, confidence, support, wisdom. Remember all those great things that her family gave her, and hold on to that, because that is really the only thing that`s going to get her through this terrible, terrible tragedy.

LALAMA: She stayed in constant contact with her family, correct?

SOULEO: Oh, yes, yes, constant contact. And there is actually a funny story. Her mom actually did not want people to know that Jennifer Hudson was her daughter, that they were related, because she liked her privacy.

And she didn`t want people to be too involved, in their family business, and things of that nature. But, yes, she stayed in constant contact with her family, would visit her brother and sister, and when she would go there, you know, they would tell her, oh, my god, Jennifer, what are you wearing, why do you have this on?

So they were just honest and loving with one another. And so that`s her rock. That`s her support system. And now that it`s gone, it`s going to be tough for her.

LALAMA: Here`s something we were debating in the newsroom, everybody. Apparently Julia, who is the mother of Julian, and, of course, you know the rest of the story. On her MySpace page, she still has her ex, William Balfour, as one of her top 10 friends. Forgive me for not understanding how this thing works, MySpace.

But, Patricia Saunders, you know, why would he still be on there? I`m not saying he`s committed the murders, but they`re estranged and having all kinds of problems, her wages have been garnished because of nonpayment on his part. Why would he still be there?

SAUNDERS: Well, because she still loves him. Clearly, there`s a deep attachment between these two, although it may be highly conflictual(ph) and ambivalent, I don`t think we can make presumptions about what their relationship is really like.

She also said on MySpace that she`s numb. So she`s no condition to be processing much kind of thinking at all.

LALAMA: Do you think, perhaps, Souleo, since you know the family, very quickly, you know, she just may in some sort of grief and denial?

SOULEO: I think so. I think grief and denial, just unsure of how the events are going to play out. And you know, the message that she wrote was very respectable. And you get the sense that she is really going through a lot of pain.

LALAMA: Thank you.

Tonight, "CNN HEROES."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Heroes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I dropped out of high school when I was 15 years old. I had put education on the back burner. I didn`t have to go back and get my GED. But it was something I really needed to complete me as a person.

My manager called a local high school, and they sent us to Bernadine.

And name is Gretchen Wilson and my hero helps people finish their education.

BERNADINE NELSON, COMMUNITY CRUSADER: Your scores are incredible.

When I began working in adult ed, I had no earthly idea that there was millions of people without a high school diploma or a GED. But you know, every single person who I helped helps with the big problems.

What are you going to do after you get your GED?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pediatrics nursing.

NELSON: So you`re going to be a great success, aren`t you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

NELSON: We have a GED program for people 17 to 75. We work with the individual wherever they are to take them where they need to go.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bernadine promised me that I`d be able to stand in that line and be proud of myself.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gretchen Frances Wilson.

NELSON: As long as they`re at sixth grade level, we can make that work.

Education is a passion for me because I know that I`m making a difference in people`s lives.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s bound and determined to put that sense of pride back into these people. Not only is it respectable, it`s admirable.

ANNOUNCER: Vote now at CNN.com/Heroes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LALAMA: And now a look back at the stories making the headlines this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t care who you are. Just let my baby go. Please. He`s 7. Let my son go. Please. That`s all I ask.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Singer and Oscar-winning actress Jennifer Hudson and her family already mourning the deaths of her mother and brother now have to come to grips with the murder of a child, 7-year-old Julian King has been found in that SUV found dead.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Did your son refuse to take a polygraph, do you know?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No one knows. I don`t know. You don`t know. No one knows if he refused.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: King`s estranged step-father William Balfour remains a person of interest and in another development has reportedly refused to take a polygraph test and is not cooperating with investigators.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: William was not raised to disrespect no one. You put my son`s face on worldwide news like he`s Attila the Hun.

GRACE: Hey, it`s not our fault he was arrested for attempted murder, having a record dating back to when he was around 12 or 13 years old and allegedly a member of the Gang Disciples.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The mother of missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony has been officially arraigned on murder charges.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Casey Anthony had entered a written plea of not guilty.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She`s charged with first-degree murder in her daughter`s disappearance, even though the little girl was never been found.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Stunning new photos released today show tot mom Casey Anthony renting a movie about a kidnapper and killer the same day police believe her daughter, Caylee, was murdered.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. There they are all snugged up at Blockbuster.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: Tonight let`s stop to remember Army Staff Sergeant Brian Bolander, 26, from Hemet, California on a fourth tour of duty. Lost his life six weeks before his wedding. Highly decorated. He loved being a ranger, fishing and sports. He also served in Kosovo.

He leaves behind parents Grace and Tony, fiancee Sandra and 4-year-old son Tyler.

Bryan Bolander, an American hero.

Thank you to all of our guest and to you at home for being with us.

Nancy, thanks for letting me sit in. Have fun with the kids tonight on Halloween.

We`ll see you tomorrow night. That`s at 8:00 p.m. sharp Eastern. And until then, have a great evening and a spooky Halloween.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/31/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Headlines tonight. Investigators narrow down the timeline and pinpoint key search areas to find Caylee.
Aired November 3, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET


And tonight, police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 20 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?

Headlines tonight. Investigators narrow down the timeline and pinpoint key search areas to find Caylee. We learn more about mom Casey`s movements in the critical days just after Caylee last seen alive. A massive search set to commence by land, by air, by water. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
<snip>
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To track Casey Anthony, we followed her constant companion, her cell phone Monday, June 16, the day Casey`s father, George Anthony, swears his daughter and granddaughter left the house at 10 minutes before 1:00 in the afternoon. Cell phone records show they did not go far. She pings this tower near Tony Lazzaro`s apartment at 5:57 that afternoon. Two hours later, they`re arm in arm at a Blockbuster, Caylee nowhere in sight.

Tuesday, June 17, at 5:20 that afternoon, her cell pings a tower near Blanchard Park. Something strange happened next. Casey`s cell phone goes silent -- no text messages, no calls for three hours, from 5:23 to 8:23 PM.

Caylee hadn`t been seen alive for about a day-and-a-half. Wednesday, June 18, the day her parents`s neighbor would later say she borrowed a shovel and in what a neighbor said was an unusual move, backed her car into the family garage.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Only Casey knows where she really took Caylee. But this we know for sure. Just before 8:00 p.m., seven hours after Caylee was last seen alive, Casey and Tony Lazzaro were at this Blockbuster near his apartment on University Boulevard.

There`s Casey, there`s Tony. But by now, Caylee is nowhere to be seen. Lazzaro told Local 6, he had not seen Caylee at that point for two weeks.

These pictures are one reason investigators believe June 16th may have been the day Caylee died.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB News Talk 1150.

Mark, what`s the latest?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWS TALK 1150: Well, the latest is, of course, those cell phone pings, and that`s going to be a very important part if and when she comes to trial.

First off, 90 percent -- 97 percent of those cell phone calls were either made from the parents` house, Tony Lazzaro`s house, or from her ex- best friend`s house, Amy Huizinga. However, there is a big gap in that cell phone conversation and her usage, either text messaging or voice messaging on the 16th from the time...

GRACE: OK. Hold off. Wait a minute, Mark. Let me just clarify something. There -- when we say it`s unusual for there to be a break in the cell calls, Mark, this woman had to be 500 and 800 calls and texts within this period of time, 500 and 800.

So for her to have a chunk of time like four or five hours where she is cell-free and text-free is highly unusual. So, Mark -- Mark Williams, tell me what`s new? What do you know new about the pings?

WILLIAMS: Well, that`s what I`m trying to get to. For example, you know, even though she was the cell phone and text messaging queen, for almost 12 hours, she did not use her cell phone whatsoever. And some of the pings have been located near Boggy Creek Road and Trade Port Road near the Orlando International Airport, and that`s one area where this search on Saturday that`s being coordinated by Tim Miller of Equusearch is going to concentrate on.

They think there may be something there.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter now helping to search for Caylee Anthony, tell me about the search and how it relates to these pings or lack thereof.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPING TO SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, the pings on a cell phone give you a -- a cell-tower is a three-sided object. And it can give you a direction that the phone was in up to three quarters or a mile and a half.

So it`s going to be relatively easy to find areas to search where the pings came from at the time. Now, Mark is right. There are times when the phone was dead. She didn`t use it. But the times that she did use it when it starts back up and she uses it is at an area.

So you get enough people out there, you`re going to be able to find the areas where these pings were from. It`s not going to be a big mystery. Everybody is on the same page as far as the pings. They are certain and definite where they came from.

GRACE: Leonard, who are the thousand searchers that you and Equusearch have managed to amass for the search?

PADILLA: Well, you`re responsible for a lot of it, because a lot of people contact me, and the first thing they say is, "I watch Nancy Grace every night," they e-mail, they say, I watch Nancy Grace, we`re going to be there.

A lady called me this morning. She says, I just left Oklahoma, I`m headed for Florida. A couple from Arizona, four bail bondsman from Arizona, they`re all heading in that direction starting tomorrow.

GRACE: You know, Leonard, have you actually thought about it? I know you`re going to be out there searching, if you happen upon anything? Have you actually thought about that?

PADILLA: Yes.

GRACE: And?

PADILLA: Well, we sit around the office sometimes, like we did this morning, and we -- we run up some videos on the computer showing bodies decomposing, what they look like, what to look for.

And, you know, it`s like Caylee is a part of the family. It`s definitely she is a part of the office.

GRACE: You know, I want to ask Dr. Deltito, back to you. Doctor, how is it that we become so attached to a little girl we have never even met?

DELTITO: Well, it`s a classic story of once you get to know someone, even if from afar, they can be incorporated into your life. To a certain extent, we project the feelings that we have about other little girls who being -- for those of us who were little girls themselves, or when we were much younger interacting with little girls, on to the little girl.

GRACE: Well, I got to tell you something, Doctor, I thought I knew it all about being a crime victim until I gave birth to the twins and, especially, when I think about little Lucy and I think about what has become of little Caylee, it`s almost unbearable.

I think we project a lot on to these crime victims, especially little Caylee, somebody so young, so innocent, just beautiful.

DELTITO: Right. And given the profession that you`re in and the other gentleman is in, you know that there are bad people out there. You`ve seen the bad act. These things are so much realer to you and the sense of imminent danger to your own children is so much larger, looming psychologically, than someone who does not actually interact with this material on such a regular basis.

GRACE: I want to go to Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert, joining us tonight.

Ben, you`ve been reviewing all of tot mom`s cell phone text records. About how much time was she spending on the phone and texting?

BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT: Nancy, this is absolutely amazing. You`re absolutely right. I did a four-day period of time around the 16th. And Casey Anthony is texting on an average of 12 messages an hour. Not a day. 12 messages an hour.

There was a one-hour period on the 14th where she texted 66 messages. This woman is addicted to text messaging. I think if Caylee wanted her diaper changed she would have to text her mom.

This is just outrageous, how much time she spends on the phone. And looking at my records right in front of me here, I see three hours of a four-hour -- four-day period where she did not send a text message.

GRACE: And to Michael Sapraicone, former NYPD detective, that makes it all the more relevant, these hours that she went without texting and calling.

MICHAEL SAPRAICONE, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: Well, apparently, she was busy doing something else at that time. And that`s, I think, what the police -- law enforcement is going to look into. What was she doing during those times that she wasn`t texting?

GRACE: And where was she?

SAPRAICONE: Right.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There`s only one reason that my daughter would keep her mouth shut. And my daughter would sacrifice going to prison and (INAUDIBLE) for her life, is to protect this child.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Straight out to Nikki Pierce with WDBO.

Nikki, I understand that grandmother Cindy Anthony broke down at a vigil. What can you tell us?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Well, it was one of the weekly vigils that they`ve been holding on Sunday nights when their supporters and friends come to pray and spend some time with them. And a little girl that was the same age as Caylee approached Cindy and hugged her. And she broke down, understandably.

GRACE: Back to Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert.

Ben, you stated that tot mom is spending about 12 texts per hour. What about cell calls?

LEVITAN: Well, those are mixed in as well. And primarily, she is texting. There are a number of calls to her boyfriend. There are a number of calls to family. But there`s nothing that`s unusual about those calls. Those are people she generally would call.

GRACE: Right.

LEVITAN: What she is not doing is sleeping, because I did an analysis of the time that she spent from the last text message of the night to when she sent the first text message of the next morning.

On average, on the 12th, 13th, 14th and 15th, she was sleeping three to four hours a night. And all of a sudden something happened on the night of the 16th. She slept 12 hours. And then the next two days she slept, oh, about 10 and 12 hours.

And then a pattern goes back to three and four hours. So clearly something happened during that time.

GRACE: Incredible. With me, Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert.

Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Specialist Ronald Tucker, 21, Fountain, Colorado, killed Iraq on a second tour. Lost his life after helping build a soccer field for Iraqi children. Had a smile and a laugh that lit up a room.

Loved the Broncos, restoring cars, sports, NASCAR. Leaves behind grieving mom Susan, two sisters, including one serving the Navy.

Ronald Tucker, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us and inviting all of us into your homes. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/03/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Possible Second Gunman in Hudson Murders

Aired November 4, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

<Snip>

GRACE: And tonight, police desperately searching for a beautiful 3- year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 20 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?

The search for little Caylee intensifies, with searchers back in Orlando now, and this time with plenty of back up. A team of bounty hunters join forces to zero in on heavily-wooded areas and other key targets. Tot mom Casey Anthony`s case in court tomorrow morning as teams of psychics also converge in Orlando. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The search for little Caylee Anthony`s body is under way. Search leader Tim Miller meets with police today to talk over plans. The search reportedly will center around an area near the Orlando International Airport.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A cell tower is a three-sided object, and it can give you a direction that the phone was in up to three quarters or a mile- and-a-half. You get enough people out there, you`re going to be able to find the areas where these pings were from.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Almost 2,000 new pages of discovery is expected this week in the disappearance of little Caylee Anthony. Also expected, a pre-trial hearing on theft charges against tot mom, Casey Anthony, scheduled for Wednesday. Anthony could face up to 55 years in prison, if convicted of those charges.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Monday, June 16th, Caylee was last seen alive.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: My daughter said she was going to work, and she was taking Caylee to the nanny, to the babysitter.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Of course, it was a lie. Only Casey knows where she really took Caylee.

Equusearch will be back November 8th, leading volunteers in the search for Caylee`s body.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Frankly, there`s not a whole lot of people that we trust. I trust Casey.

BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT: There was a one-hour period on the 14th, where she texted 66 messages.

This woman is addicted to text messaging. I think if Caylee wanted her diaper changed, she would have to text her mom.

C. ANTHONY: I trust her attorney.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Baez has been reprimanded by jail officials for hugging his client on two occasions. The jail`s visitation policy clearly states there should be no physical contact with inmates.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: All the searchers are headed to or already in Orlando to commence the search for Caylee. Expected, nearly 3,000 people.

Straight out to Jon Leiberman with "America`s Most Wanted." Fill us in.

JON LEIBERMAN, CORRESPONDENT, AMERICA`S MOST WANTED: Well, I tell you, Nancy, this is actually something that has been too long in the making. We`re going to have -- it looks like 3,000 searchers, as you mentioned, out there.

Equusearch is on the ground right now, meeting with investigators, trying to pinpoint their game plan, which areas they`re going to search first and how they`re going to search those.

You`ll remember, Nancy, a lot of the areas last time weren`t able to be searched, because of the weather, because of that tropical storm. So this hopefully will be a more fruitful search.

GRACE: Joining us right now is Gale St. John. She is psychic detective and host of "The Body Hunters." She has already searched for Caylee Anthony.

Gale, thank you for being with us. Tell me about your involvement in the search.

GALE ST. JOHN, PSYCHIC DETECTIVE, SEARCHED FOR MISSING TOT CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, we`re still involved with the search. I mean we have volunteer searchers that are there yet. We`re checking out these two very specific areas that we`re having checked out at this time.

GRACE: Which are what?

ST. JOHN: We`re still going back to the Heintzelman/Weatherbee area. The one area was extremely wet, not able to be searched. That area still needs to be searched. And there is another area that was brought to our attention, the Lake Pickett in Route 50. It`s kind of an area that makes a circle around and that area is being checked.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, now helping to search for Caylee -- he has rounded up bounty hunters to join the search, and he is leading them as they join forces with Equusearch, Tim Miller.

Leonard, the psychic has stated where they are searching. How does that fit in with your theory of where the remains may be?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPING TO SEARCH FOR MISSING CAYLEE ANTHONY: We`re -- the focus that we have is the pings off the towers on the 27th. Now, obviously, Tim is back there today. He`s got 48 hours in which to get ready. Actually, he`s got four days in which to get ready. The search starts on the 8th.

But we`re going to focus strictly on what he says. He is in charge, he is the leader. Whatever Tim says, that`s where we`re going.

GRACE: Yes, you told me that last time. What I asked you, Leonard Padilla, was how does your search coincide with what the psychic just told us they are doing?

PADILLA: It doesn`t, because we`re searching in a different area, totally different.

GRACE: Well, you know what? Power on, because that will cover two areas at the same time.

Back to Gale St. John, psychic detective and host of "The Body Hunter." She has already been there in Orlando searching for Caylee. Everyone converging again in just a couple days to commence the search. Many volunteers and searchers, including Texas Equusearch, already on the ground right now as we go to air to commence the search.

Gale St. John, a lot of people don`t believe in psychics, that`s nothing new to you. But I want to hear what your psychic visions railroad or feelings have been about the search for Caylee?

ST. JOHN: Well, you know, I`m not here certainly to make anybody believe in psychics, and our team has more than just that to offer as we do go out and search.

You know, the biggest most important thing that I have gone on is the feelings that I had while I was there twice in Florida, which has led me back to that Heintzelman/Weatherbee area.

Like I said, unfortunately, it was so wet we could not search that area. I`m still hoping -- according to the volunteers that we have right now in the area, they`re saying that it has cleared up, and it is now able to be searched and I feel that`s important.

GRACE: Gale, what was your vision? What do you see or feel that leads you to that area?

ST. JOHN: Well, originally, I had gone on things that I had seen visually.

GRACE: What?

ST. JOHN: But I was here in Ohio. I saw a wooded area. I saw some names of streets. Streets that began with, you know, names like that. So that`s kind of what led me there.

GRACE: Names like what?

ST. JOHN: Like Heintzelman, Weatherbee. I had seen things like that, heard names like that. And.

GRACE: When you say you see and hear, does this happen when you`re asleep, or is it a vision that comes to you in the daytime, during your waking hours?

ST. JOHN: During my waking hours is when I have visions.

GRACE: How does that happen? See, many of us are -- want to know more about it, or are intrigued by it. So what do you, stand there at the dishwasher and suddenly, you see the name of a street, it comes -- you just get a thought, like a thunder bolt?

How does it work for you? I know every psychic is so, so different, but how does it work for you?

ST. JOHN: Well, for me, it`s a lot of different ways. I`ve actually been driving down the street and kind of had my entire view blocked, and pictures came in just as if we were watching a television. I had to pull over.

And then other times it`s been more subtle than that. So it`s kind of shocking at times. But, I mean, this started when I was about 4 years old.

GRACE: To Dr. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist, joining us in New York, I can see that you are shaking your head as she is speaking.

DR. LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes.

GRACE: Why?

AUSTIN: Well, I have friends who are forensic psychics. I know that this is true. The human brain has so much more capacity than we understand. Why can you be washing the dishes and suddenly remember a song you heard two days ago, or have an intuition about something that will happen tomorrow?

These things do happen. We don`t understand them. And really good psychics are professionally trained, just like other people.

GRACE: To our producer, Ellie Jostad -- Ellie, I understand Casey Anthony`s case will be back in court tomorrow morning. Why?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: That`s right. Tomorrow morning she`s going to be facing 13 counts relating to the theft of checks missing from her friend Amy Huizinga.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute, Ellie. I mean, I`m talking about a murder one case and you`re telling me about theft.

JOSTAD: Right.

GRACE: Stealing some checks.

JOSTAD: Right.

GRACE: Why do we care? What`s so important? What is she facing in the theft charges?

JOSTAD: Well, she`s facing up to 65 years on those theft charges. Each of them is a third-degree felony. She`s looking at a lot of time in those theft charges.

GRACE: Now why so much for stealing checks and forging them?

JOSTAD: Well, what authorities alleged that Casey Anthony did is that she took these checks from Amy Huizinga.

GRACE: Her friend.

JOSTAD: Yes, her alleged friend. She fraudulently used her personal information, so that`s four counts right there. She also passed the check -- actually writing the check itself is another four counts. And the act of cashing the check is another four counts.

So when you add al those up, you`re looking at a lot of jail time.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers again, Penny Douglass Furr, defense attorney out of Atlanta, and the famed Richard Herman, defense attorney out of New York.

Penny, I guess you disagree with the stacked charges.

PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, what I would like to see is how many other people in that jurisdiction have been charged with bad checks and they would get up to 60 years.

GRACE: Really?

DOUGLASS FURR: I mean this is highly unusual.

GRACE: Let`s see, Douglass Furr on the screen again. Yes, there she is.

Could you direct me -- I`ve got my pocket constitution with me that I carry with me all the time. Could you direct me to the clause in the constitution that says there must be uniform sentencing? Because I don`t see it.

DOUGLASS FURR: No, I`m not saying there must be uniform sentencing, Nancy.

GRACE: So what are you saying?

DOUGLASS FURR: But to get somebody on a bad check and then all of a sudden.

GRACE: So?

DOUGLASS FURR: . this woman gets an outrages number of years and somebody else does the same thing and get probation.

GRACE: She hasn`t gotten anything yet, Penny.

DOUGLASS FURR: They`re alleging and attempting to go after an extended number of years. So I would like to see how the judge does go ahead and sentence her.

GRACE: Yes, and I would like to see your legal precedent.

DOUGLASS FURR: And what`s the status.

GRACE: . for an argument that says they`re doing it, why can`t I? You know that doesn`t even make sense.

DOUGLASS FURR: Well, Nancy, I guess if one person commits murder and they don`t want to pursue it, then that`s fine, let them go, but let`s go after this one.

GRACE: Richard.

DOUGLASS FURR: I disagree with that. I think it should be fairly uniform.

GRACE: Richard?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy, you know the sentence is going to be concurrent here. It`s not going to be consecutive. She`d be lucky if she gets one or two years of prison for all of that.

GRACE: I don`t know that it`s going to be concurrent. And what do you mean to everybody by concurrent, consecutive, when you`ve got multiple charges like Ellie just told us about.

They can all be -- the sentences run at the same time, like one year on each bad check to all run at the same time, which would equal one year, or one year to run one after another consecutively, which would be 10 or 12 years.

HERMAN: Yes, but she has no prior criminal history. So she`s going to qualify.

GRACE: That we know of.

HERMAN: Right.

By the way, happy birthday to the twins, Nancy. They`re at my office.

GRACE: You know what, Richard?

HERMAN: . signing their contract to be my partners. Defense attorneys.

GRACE: Richard, don`t start.

I want to get back to these charges tomorrow.

To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, you know what? The defense attorneys have a point. You can sentence somebody on theft to the max. I`ve done it many, many times.

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Sure.

GRACE: Gotten a plea or a sentence of -- after a trial to the max. But then they may be due a year behind bars, because they got to make room for the rapists and murderers. But could she crack behind bars and tell the truth?

BROOKS: She hasn`t so far, Nancy. But, you know, they do have -- that`s video surveillance evidence that`s going to come into key -- is going to be key in this particular case, but I doubt if she`s going to crack. She is a tough nut.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

C. ANTHONY: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl. I need to find her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to remind everyone we have not achieved our primary objective in this investigation. We have not recovered little Caylee Anthony.

TIM MILLER, HEAD OF TEXAS EQUUSEARCH, LEADING SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Caylee`s little body needs to be found. The search will be larger than any search, I feel, we have ever done in history.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: With us right now, Tim Miller, head of Texas Equusearch, leading the search for Caylee. Tim Miller, not just a searcher, he is a crime victim himself. His daughter went missing and was murdered. Her body found long after.

Tim, thank you for being with us.

MILLER: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: Tim, when you go searching, does the memory of your daughter play in your mind while you are searching?

MILLER: You know it`s not a sad memory anymore, Nancy. It`s kind of the things that when Laura disappeared, unfortunately, her body was found two- and-a-half miles from our house.

But what I did not do back then for my own daughter -- I didn`t know what to do, I basically was just paralyzed. And believe me, I beat myself for feeling I was a father that let my daughter down and I just made a promise the Laura and to God that I`d never leave another family down again as long as there was anything I could do to help.

So Laura`s death was not in vain by no means. And unfortunately, I learned a lot because of her disappearance.

GRACE: Well, Tim, speaking for myself and many others, you have inspired a lot of people to do what they can. I found out the other day, my little court reporter so many years ago, when I would try cases, she was the court reporter, sent you a check after watching you on this show.

A lot of people are believing in you and Texas Equusearch. You`re already there in Orlando. What`s the first thing you plan to do in it the search?

MILLER: Well, the first thing is a lot of planning. We`ve got a location for command center, which is at the Chrysler plant here.

GRACE: Right.

MILLER: We`re going to be bringing in all of the tables and chairs and tents and buildings and copy machines. I`ve got 21 more people that we`re actually flying in from all over the country. That`s a huge core team.

We`re going to have a big meeting Friday night, Friday evening, to set all of the ground rules, go over all of the search procedures.

GRACE: Good, because a lot of nay-sayers are all right attacking volunteers, destroying or overlooking evidence. So that will be a vital, vital moment in your search.

Out to Nate.

Everybody, Nate is Casey Anthony`s former roommate, when she was living with Tony Lazzaro.

Nate, thank you for being with us. Tony Lazzaro was deposed under oath by the defense. Did he share anything with you about where they`re headed?

NATE, LIVED WITH TOT MOM CASEY ANTHONY WHEN CAYLEE WENT MISSING: He didn`t really talk to me too much about what went on. He just gave me a couple of general questions.

GRACE: Like?

NATE: . they`ve asked about were he had lived, you know, and jobs. He didn`t really give me any other insight as to what exactly they discussed.

GRACE: How long was he in there?

NATE: He had left sometime early that afternoon, and I was not home when he got home. But I don`t think he was there terribly long.

GRACE: Very, very interesting that Baez didn`t grill him, because, you know, Mike Brooks, this is like you`re getting a first shot at a state`s witness. What did Baez do, let the opportunity fritter away?

BROOKS: Absolutely. Especially from the video we saw him with Casey at Blockbuster, right in that time frame that the prosecutors feel that Caylee could have been in the trunk of that car dying or already dead.

I mean, it was a blown opportunity, in -- is the way I feel.

GRACE: I want to go back to Natisha Lance, our producer who`s been on the case from the very, very beginning. I know the Anthony family has been forced to move their headquarters again. Why?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: There`s been some vandalism, as well as people threatening to picket these areas where they have set up their tent to do their search headquarters. And because of that, Nancy, they have had to move.

They`re now going to be moving to their sixth location. They have been at Publix supermarket before, at a skating rink, and now they`re hopefully going to get some office space where they can continue to do their search.

GRACE: And to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky from John J. College of Criminal Justice.

Kobe, I understand, of course, you are a paid member of the Anthony defense team, that you`ve come up with a new theory on the chloroform in the trunk.

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: I don`t have a new theory, Nancy. But I`ll tell you this. You might be surprised to learn that one out of two vehicles tested for chloroform has come up positive, chloroform in the trunk.

These are randomly obtained vehicles and tested in the same way that the Body Farm did their testing on the vehicle in question.

GRACE: Says who?

KOBILINSKY: Says the Body Farm.

GRACE: Based on?

KOBILINSKY: Based on their findings.

GRACE: Based on how many cars?

KOBILINSKY: I think one out of two.

GRACE: OK, wait a minute, wait a minute. How many cars did they test?

KOBILINSKY: Two.

GRACE: OK. Hold on. Wait a minute. Let me see, Kobe. They tested two cars. And half of them had chloroform in them?

KOBILINSKY: Yes. One had chloroform.

GRACE: So you think I`m convinced by a two-car test study?

KOBILINSKY: Well, the issue is.

GRACE: I`m so glad I thought to ask you details, Kobe, on your great new insight.

KOBILINSKY: This is not insight, this is simply a statement that.

GRACE: You know what? I -- if I.

KOBILINSKY: If you get chloroform in a random car.

GRACE: I`m embarrassed for you for even saying that, to suggest to me that that`s a scientific point based on a two-car study? That would be like me taking two guilty pleas on shoplifting and then giving you an overview on felony prosecution.

KOBILINSKY: When you expect to find no cars, finding one out of two is saying a lot.

GRACE: And what was the level of saturation in the one car?

KOBILINSKY: It was not a great quantity.

GRACE: Excuse me, I couldn`t hear you.

KOBILINSKY: It was not a large quantity, but it was there.

GRACE: As compared to what was the saturation level in Casey Anthony`s car?

KOBILINSKY: I don`t think that has been.

GRACE: Heavily saturated. Am I right, Jon Leiberman?

LEIBERMAN: Look, it was enough to indict her for murder, along with all of the other evidence there, and there is a lot of evidence that we haven`t even heard.

GRACE: I`m taking that as a yes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Casey is going through a nightmare and has been living a nightmare for the last several months. She has a missing child. She`s also someone`s child. This family has had to withstand something unlike anyone has ever seen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Tonight, again, I want to thank you for all your encouragement, your thoughts and your prayers when John David, Lucy and I were in the hospital for so long.

Today, their first birthday.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: This past April I married David and tonight announce that we are expecting twins.

The sexes of the twins had been confirmed by ultrasound -- pink and blue.

Tonight, meet two very special guests, two of the tiniest crime fighters, Lucy and John David.

John David is on the left in the green bassie and Lucy Elizabeth is on the right in the pink bassie.

Tonight, my own true loves here on the set to wish you a Happy Valentine`s Day.

When people say how is motherhood I don`t even know the words to describe it. I really don`t. It`s like nothing I`ve never experienced before. I never thought anything like this miracle could happen to me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Happy birthday.

Let`s stop and remember Army Captain Andrew Pearson, 32, Billings, Montana, killed Iraq. On a third tour, also served Afghanistan. A West Point grad, highly decorated, awarded the Bronze Star, Army Commendation Medal and Service Ribbon.

Loved hunting, fishing, riding motorcycle and being a dad. Leaves behind father Ron, Stepmom, Renee, widow Jon Marie and four children.

Andrew Pearson, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/04/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Defense Memo Says Caylee`s Death Maybe Accidental

Aired November 5, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 20 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell. The defense team puts it in writing. Tot mom`s defense? Little Caylee may have died after an overdose of sedatives. They go on to say the tot mom spent other people`s money, wrote bad checks, had a string of lovers and thrived on risky behavior. Then they try to explain why mothers murder their children. That`s right -- it`s all in writing -- they try to explain why mothers kill. This while the defense publicly claims little Caylee`s alive, kidnapped by the nanny and living in Mexico.

The clock ticking down on the state`s announcement whether the death penalty will be sought, deadline November 24, the defense actually arguing mom Casey Anthony too young to get the death penalty. How old do they think little Caylee was? And in a play for sympathy, they display the tot mom`s own baby pictures, maybe a mistake since they look eerily similar to 3-year-old Caylee.

A bizarre sighting of grandfather George at a heavily wooded area near the Anthony home, that spot a target for search after cell phone records reveal tot mom Casey making repeated trips to this exact area. Searchers and investigators zero in there to find Caylee. Texas Equusearch and a team of bounty hunters converge in Orlando as we speak. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where is Caylee Marie Anthony tonight? Even today, Casey Anthony and her family would have you believe she is still just like this, an achingly adorable little girl who has been far from home for far too long.

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: I still believe in my heart and everything that we`re still getting tips and things like that, that my granddaughter is still out there. She`s alive.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caylee Anthony has never been found, and investigators believe the little girl is dead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The state is expected to announce its death penalty decision against tot mom Casey Anthony, charged with first degree murder in the disappearance of her 3-year-old daughter, Caylee. The defense attorneys plan on use baby pictures of Anthony to try and get the death penalty thrown out. Anthony`s lawyers say if Caylee`s death did occur, it was probably a tragic accident. They say Anthony has no criminal record, she`s a good and loving mom, but a troubled one who may be suffering from depression.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is your daughter in a better place?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: No, she`s not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you worried about her?

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m absolutely petrified. If she was with her family right now, she`d be in the best place. She`s not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, she`s either in a dumpster right now, she`s buried somewhere -- she`s out there somewhere, and her rotting body is starting to decompose.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: One thing I know is she loves that child.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An attorney hired by tot mom Casey Anthony`s defense team is reportedly asking prosecutors to show Anthony some mercy and not seek the death penalty. They`re using baby pictures of their client to help their cause. Those photos show Anthony as a baby, playing with her brother and with family members. Anthony`s lawyers say if Caylee`s death did occur, it was probably a tragic accident, and they say Caylee may have been poisoned by chloroform while she was possibly sedated. Anthony`s defense team also says she`s an unlikely candidate for the death penalty because she has no criminal record. And they say she may be suffering from depression or mental illness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you`re worried that if we find that out, that people are going to look at you the wrong way?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On a separate note, Caylee`s grandfather, George Anthony, was reportedly spotted last week in an area where searches are expected to resume for the little girl.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is another wooded area that`s easily accessible by car yet easy to disappear into. And it`s less than four miles from where Casey Anthony and Caylee lived with Casey`s parents. The Channel 9 viewer told us she saw Caylee`s grandfather, George`s, car parked in this area about 6:15 PM on October 30 and that he was staring into the woods. Then she saw him get into his car and drive away.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. To say it is bad enough. To put it in writing, unheard of. I`m reading what reports say was in this defense memo. They actually state if death did occur, it was almost certainly due to an unwitting overdose of sedative, and they allude to chloroform?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: That`s right. They say it was almost certainly a tragic accident, that she might have been poisoned by chloroform, also might have been under the effects of a sedative, maybe an unwitting overdose of a sedative, and again, as you said, using baby pictures of Casey to gain some sympathy from prosecutors in deciding whether to go after the death penalty in this case.

GRACE: Out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. What happened to, Caylee`s alive, she`s been kidnapped by Zenaida Gonzalez and she`s living in Mexico? What happened to that? Why are we suddenly finding out about a memo -- that is not for the public, I might add, we`re not supposed to find out about this -- the defense writes a memo that says the child may have died by an unwitting overdose? Like Caylee climbed into the medicine cabinet and accidentally got some Robitussin?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Right. There was no mention of Zenaida Gonzalez today. But even today, Jose Baez did say that they still are, you know, under the belief that Caylee Anthony is alive, even as they`re laying out, basically, their defense of why she shouldn`t get the death penalty, among other reasons that she was young, that she may have been mentally ill. One of her attorneys even said, you know, that she is mentally ill, that he wanted her to get a psychiatric evaluation, but Jose Baez wouldn`t let that happen.

GRACE: OK. This is so wrong. We are taking your calls live. The defense actually putting it in writing -- and of course, it got leaked -- that little Caylee may have died from an accidental overdose, alluding to the chloroform found in the tot mom`s car trunk.

Let`s unleash the lawyers. I can`t wait to hear this. Everybody, child advocate out of LA, you know her well, Gloria Allred, joining us tonight, veteran defense attorney Raymond Giudice out of Atlanta, defense attorney Renee Rockwell also joining us out of Atlanta.

Ray, what were they thinking? What were they thinking to, number one, even say this, and number two, put it in writing?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, let me take a contrarian approach to this. I think they knew it was going to get leaked. I think a very -- much more savvy defense counsel is trying to steer this to a guilty plea to count three of that indictment, the aggravated manslaughter count, the language of which permits a plea if there was an accidental death. And I think that`s where they`re going.

GRACE: OK. Let me see -- there he is. So Raymond Giudice, what would be accidental about putting a rag soaked in chloroform over a child`s mouth and leaving her in the car trunk?

GIUDICE: If what she was trying to accomplish was to sedate the child or calm the child down or medicate the child...

GRACE: Medicate the child...

GIUDICE: ... and the child died accidentally.

GRACE: You know what, Ray? You know, I know you haven`t given birth, but typically, when a mother wants to calm a child, you sing it a lullaby. Maybe you take it to the window. Maybe you get up and walk around with it. You don`t give it chloroform.

GIUDICE: And that`s the difference why it would be a felony, Nancy. I agree with you, it`s a crime. But the difference is, it`s not a capital death penalty homicide, and that`s where the defense is going.

GRACE: You know what? You are making me break my vow to give up cursing, Ray Giudice. Gloria Allred, please explain the theory of felony murder and why this would be a murder one, if this scenario is correct.

GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well, it could possibly be murder one. And you know, here`s the question that I have, too, Nancy, which is, why, if they want to claim insanity, would they not permit a mental exam of their client?

GRACE: Well, I can tell you that, Gloria.

ALLRED: Why?

GRACE: Because they`re still saying the child is -- publicly, anyway, Jose Baez, the defense, is saying the child is alive, she was kidnapped by a nanny, and she`s well and thriving in Puerto Rico or Mexico or Texas. This was not to be leaked. This is completely contrary to their public position.

ALLRED: They`re trying to have the best of all worlds, and they can`t. They`re going to have to choose a theory. They`re going to have to have facts that support their theory, and they`re going to have to stick to it. They`re not going to be able to have it all.

GRACE: Renee Rockwell, you know, when you try to go and work out a deal with prosecutors, you don`t put it in a written memo that`s going to be made part of the record, the public record. That`s not the way it works. If you have confidential things to tell the prosecutor, you go meet with them and tell them.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, and make sure all the rooms are closed, and there`s no tape recording running, Nancy. It`s just so reckless to me. It`s so reckless that I almost have to agree with Ray that somebody may have wanted this to leak out only maybe to poison the thousands of the jury venire in the event that...

GRACE: Really? Really?

ROCKWELL: ... this case does go to trial.

GRACE: Because the effect that it`s having, after all that the public has been put through, much less the grandparents, all of the volunteers out there searching, looking for her, all the people looking for her on the streets, calling in tips, and now we find out the defense puts it in writing? Let me just go ahead and quote it. "May have been poisoned by an accidental" -- excuse me -- "unwitting overdose of sedative"? That`s supposed to engender my sympathy, Renee?

ROCKWELL: Well, Nancy, they`re just putting it out there because all the publicity so far has been so negative. And I`m waiting for some type of a change of venue, Nancy. I don`t see how there`s going to be -- if there`s a trial in this case, I don`t see how they`ll ever find a fair hearing.

GRACE: Well, here you go, artfully dancing away from the topic.

Mike Brooks, you know what? This whole panel, except for Allred, is upside-down.

(LAUGHTER)

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: As usual! Well, And I`ll say Ray usually is a little bit on point.

GRACE: Come on. It`s out there. I`ve got it right here, quotes from the memo where they actually say -- first of all, they talk about her risky behavior, a string of relationships with men, spending money she didn`t have, writing bad checks. And they go on to say an unwitting overdose of sedatives may have resulted in Caylee`s death? After they`ve led police on a wild goose chase, lambasted them for not searching for Caylee alive, and now we get this?

BROOKS: You know, it sounds like Morgan (ph). They`ve created a false hope, you know, with George and Cindy. Now they put this out there. It sounds like they`re trying to go for the manslaughter, or they`re trying to make up a defense that she`s mentally deficient.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell me the truth, and we can work with that. Or if you continue down this path and continue lying, I can tell you that when this snowball gets to the bottom of the hill, the only person who`s going to get hurt is you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s not true. A lot of people around you get hurt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your parents...

CASEY ANTHONY: A lot of people are hurting right now and...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you know what? One person could put a stop to that.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`ve been trying.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On her MySpace page dated July 7, a week before Caylee was reported missing, Anthony posted, "What is given can be taken away. Everyone lies, everyone dies, life will never be easy."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: In a stunning defense memo, in writing, the defense admits that little Caylee may have died of an unwitting drug overdose.

We are taking your calls live. To Sheeba in Illinois. Hi, Sheeba.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. It doesn`t seem possible that the babies are a year old.

GRACE: Sheeba...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am just -- it`s just amazing.

GRACE: I can`t believe it. I can`t believe it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They are beautiful.

GRACE: You know what? I wake up in the night sometimes and just say a prayer of thanks that they are alive and healthy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you get up and go look at them.

GRACE: I do.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know you do.

GRACE: All night!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, I know you do, honey. My question is, if Casey -- not Casey -- yes, if Casey has lied all throughout her growing-up stage, and her mother and father -- and I must say, especially her mother, kept covering up for her and doing all these things, does she not realize yet she`s raised a brat and a probable murderer? And as far as they said mental thing, I don`t think she has a mental incapacity because she`s only had one child out of wedlock. She has enough about her mind that she knows about birth control.

GRACE: She certainly does, apparently, to Sheeba in Illinois. Now, that`s one part of the discovery we are not privy to.

Let`s go to Dr. Caryn Stark, psychologist, joining us in New York. Caryn, the memo goes on to suggest that tot mom Casey Anthony has mental problems, possibly even depression. Number one, that doesn`t rise to insanity. But number two, have you seen her on that stripper pole? Have you seen her making out with the other girl while she`s dancing in the mini-dress and a push-up bra? That does not look like depression to me. But I`m just a lawyer. Weigh in.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: You`re right, Nancy. That is not depression. She really fits the sociopath, not depression. This is somebody who, as they say there, does risky things, really attempts to do things she shouldn`t. She forges checks and fraud.

GRACE: Here`s your (INAUDIBLE) depression. The depression is on the left in the blue mini-dress. Go ahead.

STARK: Yes, this is not depression. This is definitely not depression. We know that. We know this is sociopathic behavior. It`s not depression.

GRACE: We don`t know anything because we are just trial lawyers. You explain it to me.

STARK: That`s what I`m trying to tell you. If you do that kind of stuff, it`s like a con artist, when you`re doing fraudulent checks, when you`re running around and doing all that dancing that you`re describing, when you have risky behavior. You take those kind of chances because you need to have that exhilaration. That`s a sociopath, that is not a depressive personality.

GRACE: Out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, soon to converge there in Orlando in the search for little Caylee. Surprised at this written memo by the defense?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: No. But let me backtrack just a bit, Nancy, for just a second, please. On the 15th, when her mom was choking her and she ran out of the house, she didn`t take no Xanax with her. She had to come up with something. She had the chloroform. She quieted the child, put her in the trunk of the car, but she also left the rag in the trunk, which created enough chloroform there to kill her.

Now, the situation as far as the -- the notation about, if there was a death, it was accidental, it doesn`t surprise me at all because they know we`re going to find the body by Monday, and at that time, all bets are off. The state prosecutor doesn`t have to make a deal. So if she`s going to make a deal, she`d better hurry up and do it now while she`s got some bargaining chips. Otherwise, it`s all over for her. And the attorney, Jose, and the gentleman from Miami, who`s very detached from being involved with her personally, is telling them, We better do something now because these guys are going to find the body.

GRACE: To Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist joining us from John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He is a paid consultant to the Casey Anthony defense team. Koby (ph), now, all along, you`ve been telling me how it`s very uncertain as to the body farm tests, about the chloroform being in the trunk. And now the defense has a written memo stating if Caylee`s dead, it`s likely to -- excuse me, unwitting overdose of sedative?

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, Nancy, I find this very interesting. Obviously, the most...

GRACE: Interesting?

KOBILINSKY: ... the most important goal for the defense is getting this -- this capital punishment possibility off the table, and they`re coming up with every mitigating circumstance that they possibly...

GRACE: And that`s supposed to make me have faith in them, that they`re throwing the kitchen sink at me?

KOBILINSKY: Well, this is legal strategy. And I`m not a lawyer, but it seems to me...

GRACE: Just legal strategy?

KOBILINSKY: ... that putting something in writing is not always the best way to go. But I`m not a lawyer.

GRACE: OK, so your response is they shouldn`t have put it in writing.

KOBILINSKY: I`m saying that, you know, that`s a step beyond what they needed to do. But I`m not making the call.

GRACE: Doesn`t it concern you that they want you to come up with ways to punch holes in the state`s case?

KOBILINSKY: Well, that`s the job...

GRACE: Which you have the intellect and the knowledge to do. You have the power to do that with your knowledge.

KOBILINSKY: That`s true.

GRACE: You, among all people, would be able to do that. But now you see in writing that they`re actually saying point-blank, the child may be dead to an unwitting overdose of sedative, when they want you -- does the truth not mean anything in this arena?

KOBILINSKY: It certainly does. This is a legal strategy. I mean, I`m concerned that the state needs to do top-notch, reliable work at the highest standards. If they may take somebody`s freedom or life away, they have to be held to the highest standards, especially with scientific analysis.

GRACE: So you`re throwing it onto the state. It doesn`t concern you that this is just a strategy and the truth means nothing to the defense?

KOBILINSKY: We`re all interested in justice, Nancy, but we have to make sure that the testing is reliable.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lee says partly because of that atrocious smell in the car, their mother angrily confronted Casey about her claim that the nanny took Caylee, telling Casey, quote, "We could have found her a month ago. Why did you wait? What have you done?"

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CINDY ANTHONY: I`ve never seen her be a bad mom. She loves her daughter. I don`t doubt that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lee relayed to investigators how Casey started pouring her heart out about the tension between her and their mother over Caylee, starting by quoting Casey as saying, "Mom has thrown it in my face many times before that I`m an unfit mother, and you know, maybe she`s right and maybe I am."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Jim in Michigan. Hi, Jim.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Hi, Nancy. How`re you doing?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had a question regarding the grandparents` finances, and I wondered if you or Leonard knew if they were paid for the interview last week on the "Today" show.

GRACE: Interesting question. Leonard Padilla, what do you know?

PADILLA: My understanding is they weren`t paid for the interview. What the television media people do is they license photos and things of that nature, which I believe they were paid for, and then they throw in an interview for free. But they were paid a licensing fee for...

GRACE: Do you know how much?

PADILLA: I`ve heard all the way up to 200 thou.

GRACE: To Natisha Lance, our producer. Natisha, what do we know? Were they paid for the photos and video, so you can get around saying you paid for the interview?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: I`m hearing the same reports as Leonard Padilla is hearing, actually, Nancy. There is speculation they were paid for these photos, as well as video, upwards to $200,000.

GRACE: When you say speculation, speculation by whom? I mean, is it family members or is it sources that know the family members?

LANCE: No, it`s actually speculation from the media that has been coming out about this.

GRACE: To Kathryn in Connecticut. Hi, Kathryn.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I just want to let you know, last night when you made that dedication to your children, hats off to you. I don`t know how you did it with a straight face. I would have cried. Knowing what you went through to have those beautiful children and having to watch this every night, it`s absolutely atrocious. A couple questions...

GRACE: Hold on. Hold on, Kathryn. We`re going to break, and we`ll pick it up in just a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: My granddaughter, Caylee Marie Anthony, who`s age 3, is alive. I`m going to find her.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The Channel 9 viewer told us she saw Caylee`s grandfather George`s car parked in this area about 6:15 p.m. on October 30th and that he was staring into the woods. Then she saw him get into his car and drive away.

She figured he might have been here looking for Caylee, and the information was passed on to law enforcement.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: George and I don`t believe that Caylee`s in the woods or -- you know, out there. We believe someone has her and that she`s alive.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The search for little Caylee Anthony`s body is underway.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Equusearch is back in town, making plans for the next search scheduled to begin on Saturday.

G. ANTHONY: My focus is always on my granddaughter, it always will be.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Grandparents George and Cindy Anthony have been put through hell, publicly stating that the little girl is still alive, but now we get a defense memo that states the girl likely dead because of an unwitting overdose of sedative?

They seem to throw the kitchen sink.

Out to the lawyers, Gloria Allred, Ray Giudice, Renee Rockwell.

Gloria, they say, OK, we don`t think she is dead, but if she is dead, it`s because of an unwitting overdose, and even if she is dead, they -- mom has a mental illness, she`s been depressed and they go on and on and on about her erratic behavior.

I mean, which defense are we supposed to pick?

GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIM`S RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Well, exactly. But I think what they`re trying to do here, Nancy, is obviously they`re trying to argue the prosecutors don`t seek the death penalty against her. Because if she did, if she was responsible for little Caylee`s death, it was an accident, or it wasn`t intentional, it wasn`t premeditated, first-degree murder.

But, by the way, if it was an accident why no 9-1-1 call? Why no cry for help? That`s the problem they have.

GRACE: What about that, Ray?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I agree. But let me also say that there`s a new sheriff in town. This is new defense counsel, and experienced death penalty counsel. He`s evaluating this case in a much more sophisticated level than Mr. Baez was.

He`s not worried if he gets you angry, Nancy, or has inconsistent defenses, he is trying to keep his client from having a lethal injection.

GRACE: Renee?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree with Ray, Nancy. This -- his only job at this point is to keep her alive at the end of the day.

GRACE: Let`s take a look at women who have been sentenced to death in Florida.

Of course, Arlene Wuornos, later played by Charlize Theron. She -- serial killer, seven murders. Tiffany Cole, currently on death row, killed two people. Anna Cardona killed her son. Judias Buenoano, first female murderer executed in Florida since `76, she poisoned her husband.

Virginia Larzelere, currently on death row, killed husband. Andrea Hicks Jackson killed police officer. Marie Dean Arrington killed Husband. Sonja Jacobs, murder of two officers.

So it does happen in Florida that women are sentenced to the death penalty. And in this case, they are also arguing she is not an appropriate candidate for the death penalty. But the reality is, the murder of a child under 12 is an aggravating circumstance for the death penalty, in Florida, Gloria?

ALLRED: Well, yes and so that`s the problem. All they can do is make their best argument. It`s going to be up to the prosecutor and perhaps the prosecutor is committing to advise the prosecutor as to whether or not to seek the death penalty.

Does this case fall within their guidelines for deciding that a death penalty should be sought? That`s going to be the issue.

GRACE: To Tim Miller, head of Texas Equusearch, leading the search for Caylee, he is there in Orlando, poised to start the search, and he has got a multitude of volunteers, of bounty hunters, of professionals, military, former cops there to help him.

Tim Miller, I understand that you have spoken with the Anthony family this time?

TIM MILLER, HEAD OF EQUUSEARCH, LEADING SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: I spoke with Cindy last night. I spoke with her a couple times a day. It was very pleasant conversation, and -- and, again, Nancy, nobody has ever walked in the shoes of this family right here in this.

GRACE: That`s true.

MILLER: You know, I support -- I support them. And.

GRACE: I know you do. And you always have.

Tim, do the Anthonys tell you that they believe little Caylee is still alive?

MILLER: They do tell me that. And.

GRACE: OK.

MILLER: And I wouldn`t -- never want to discredit them for believing that.

GRACE: Well, then, what do you make of this defense memo outlining how little Caylee may have died of an unwitting overdose of sedative, i.e., chloroform?

MILLER: I think that -- that gives us more reason to put on this huge search that we`re putting together in a -- I mean, the calls and e-mails we`re getting, Nancy, we`ve got over -- people from over 32 states here, they`re coming, people from Canada, from Puerto Rico.

Everybody is falling in love with little Caylee across the country, across the world.

GRACE: They certainly have.

MILLER: And the support is unbelievable. And Nancy, I want to say something to you, if I can, please. You know, you`ve said so many kind words to me, but I just want to tell you that we actually got a check in the mail when Larry said he wanted checks mailed to your show.

A check went to your show, and then you all mailed that to us, and we opened that this morning. And it was a check from one of your viewers that said, please, this donation is for Texas Equusearch for Caylee Anthony`s search. And it is in honor of your children`s birthdays.

And Nancy, what you`ve given to the viewers, what your children have given, how many hearts you`ve touched. But, yes, we got a check in honor of your children`s birthdays, and it just really warmed our hearts.

And, you know, thank you for everything you do. And everybody, just pray for the Anthonys during this period of time, and see if we can bring this to a close.

GRACE: We are. And so many people are. And thank you for that, for what you just said.

Speaking of the Anthonys, to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO, what about this report that Mr. Anthony was out staring into one of the areas that is -- an area that is targeted for search?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes. That report was from last Thursday, which would have been October 30th, and the report was that basically he was kind of staring off into those woods around Orlando International Airport where Texas Equusearch is going to be searching here in the next couple of days.

A spokesman from the Jose Baez law firm said that he was aware that he was out there.

GRACE: For?

PETRIMOULX: Basically, what they suggested is that maybe he was out there to find a new place to set up a kid-finder tent.

GRACE: With me, Drew Petrimoulx from WDBO and Kathi Belich with WFTV.

Back to Catherine in Connecticut.

Catherine, dear, what was your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question, and it`s sort of been touched on. The venue. I know that it was mentioned, but then after today`s disclosure, you know, and the defense, obviously, is putting that out there. I mean.

GRACE: So you`re wondering if they`re going to seek a change of venue?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A change of venue, yes.

GRACE: Gotcha.

Gloria Allred, Ray Giudice, Renee Rockwell, I don`t see how they can afford not to get a change of venue, Renee.

ROCKWELL: Well, Nancy, the question is, can you find a juror that`s going to be able to sit and be fair, given all the publicity. And when you look at the citizens that have come out just against -- they are mad, they are vicious. They are mad at the parents of Casey Anthony.

GRACE: So what are you trying to say?

ROCKWELL: They are passive. I`m just saying.

GRACE: There is or -- will or will not be a change of venue?

ROCKWELL: I`m saying they`re going to ask for it, because I think they deserve it. I don`t think they can find a fair juror there.

GRACE: Take a look at the cities there in Florida, possible change of venues, Tallahassee, Pensacola, St. Pete, Ft. Myers, Hollywood, West Palm, Cape Coral, Tampa, Orlando, Jacksonville.

There are plenty of places to go. But as of right now, Gloria Allred, no request for change of venue. Why?

ALLRED: Well, maybe they think that they`re not really going to have any better chance elsewhere, or maybe they`re just not going to ask for a change of venue. But even if they do ask, asking doesn`t mean they`re going to get. They`re still going to have to prove that they can`t find fair and impartial jurors where they are. And.

GRACE: Agree, Ray?

GIUDICE: Yes.

ALLRED: Usually jurors say that they can be fair and impartial.

GIUDICE: If it`s a capital case, the defense will make a motion for change of venue. The judge will grant it so as to take reversible error out of the trial.

GRACE: Yes, better safe than sorry.

Everybody, as we go to break, we`re taking your calls live, but I want to tell you about some breaking news.

There`s a massive search underway right now. It`s in Dallas where a 4-year-old little girl abducted after her mother stabbed in a parking lot. Please look. Police say Tonoko Cipriano took off in his ex-girlfriend`s red Toyota with this little girl, Yameli Nava.

License plate L-Love-W-P, Peter 5999. If you have information, please, call Dallas PD 214-671-4268.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S DEFENSE LAWYER: Casey is going through a nightmare.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: There`s that chance that I might not see Caylee again.

BAEZ: She has a missing child.

C. ANTHONY: I have no clue where she is. I am absolutely petrified.

G. ANTHONY: My focus is always on my granddaughter, it always will be.

CINDY ANTHONY: It just seems like from our perspective, all it seemed like from day one, you have been building a case against Casey as a murderer. She`s not a murderer. One thing I know is she loves that child.

C. ANTHONY: I just want my daughter back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to the lines, to Kathleen in Maryland, hi, Kathleen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I`m glad you just played that little clip there. My question actually goes way back to when Casey`s mom called -- put in that 9-1-1 call, and she said, I really think my daughter did something.

I mean, as a mother, you feel real strong about those feelings when you put your daughter out there and say you think she did something to her daughter.

Why is it now she is recanting those feelings, and she`s not even playing on that anymore? She is just totally, you know, she didn`t do anything, she is still alive. How can the Anthonys think this?

GRACE: Caryn Stark?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How can they think that their granddaughter is alive?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: They need to think it. They really need to think it, because that is what gives them hope and keeps them alive. This is not a bad mother, this grandmother. She was a good mother. And she really needs to defend her daughter. That`s what she wants.

GRACE: Everyone, this, after a bombshell defense memo has been released to the media. Long story short, in the memo, the defense team states that little Caylee may have died from an unwitting overdose of sedative. Chloroform, for instance.

Stunning revelation. After all this time, they have been arguing little Caylee is alive and well, having been kidnapped. And we remember, all the gyrations, Mike Brooks, that tot mom Casey Anthony put police through. I was at Jay Blanchard Park, I worked at Universal, the nanny was at Sawgrass Apartments, they drove her around and around all over Orlando, trying to find the baby.

Now this.

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, Nancy, you know, you go back and as the caller is talking about, it goes all the way back to July 15th, when her world started crumbling down around her when her mother came over to Tony Lazzaro`s house and confronted her.

The same day that she was also confronted by Amy Huizinga about the money that was stolen and that`s when her mother said get your things, we`re out of here, and that`s when she went back and made that 9-1-1 call, and that`s when Casey`s world started going downhill, fast.

GRACE: To Jeanne in Massachusetts, hi, Jeanne.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, how are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I just first want to say thanks for all you`re doing, congratulations on your beautiful family. Your twins are so beautiful.

GRACE: I`m really blessed, thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re so lucky to have you and David.

I actually just have two quick questions, Nancy. The first one is if her parents are staying away because of the question of the calls being recorded and people listening, I don`t understand that, because I`m a mother myself, and any mother would want to see her child, just to say hello and say I love you and support you.

So I don`t understand why no one has been to the jail to see her.

And then the second question was, I`m just questioning, I`m a health care professional myself. I actually work in an operating room and I`m a nurse. And when any anesthetic is given or anything is given, and to talk about this poor little girl being given chloroform, most young children, any (INAUDIBLE) anesthetic agent, even it`s tainted with a scent, it`s on them.

Initially they might be a little cooperative, then they go through a disoriented stage, Nancy. Where I could not understand how any mother could not put their child through this.

GRACE: What do you mean disorientation, Jeanne?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, they start to fight you and they`re pushing you away and it`s just -- it`s like a disorientation phase before they fall asleep. It`s a horrible thing -- I mean little children.

GRACE: Listen, you know what? For all of the people I put behind bars for all those years, it kills me to even give the children medicine when I have to give them medicine in one of those droppers.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh it`s horrible.

GRACE: Can`t hardly stand it. Lucy always clinches her mouth shut. It`s horrible.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I`m just wondering if that would be a mitigating factor as well for her, with this being a death penalty case.

GRACE: You mean aggravating.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Aggravating, I apologize. Yes.

GRACE: You know, excellent question.

To Gloria Allred, what a child would go through, if this is a mode of death, would that be an aggravating circumstance?

ALLRED: You know, I don`t really think so. I think, really, what her intent was and what her actions were really are more relevant on this issue. And, you know -- and I have to ask, how can she be insane and do this? I mean she has to show a mental disease or defect. She has to know -- she would have to show that she didn`t know what she did was wrong.

GRACE: Gloria, Gloria, Gloria.

ALLRED: Yes.

GRACE: Have you seen the shot of her snugged up to the boy friend, trouncing through the Blockbuster on the day police think this likely may have happened?

ALLRED: Well, yes, and exactly. And that`s why I`m saying.

GRACE: She`s not crazy.

ALLRED: . I think she will have a really hard time with that kind of defense.

HAMMER: You know, to Ray and Renee, it`s -- you know, payback is hell, isn`t it, Ray, when your client there at Blockbuster, snugged up to the boyfriend on the day police theorize she killed her child?

GIUDICE: Look, Nancy, Miss Anthony and her parents have done absolutely nothing to help her case from day one. And I think that answers the earlier caller.

GRACE: What does that have to do with what I just said?

GIUDICE: Well, let me just say that, it doesn`t help. I agree with you. It hurts the case, and I wanted to respond to a caller who said why is no one going to visit her? The new lawyer is saying, you people can`t be trusted. You mouth off, you talk too much. And I`m taking control of this case, stay away from the jail.

GRACE: Renee, the video hurts.

ROCKWELL: Video hurts, and just to piggyback with Ray.

GRACE: Any attempt at insanity -- there she is, you know, at Blockbuster?

ROCKWELL: Nancy, they have not made one good move, there has not been one good photograph. There`s not been one good.

GRACE: That`s not the defense attorneys` fault.

ROCKWELL: There`s not been one.

GRACE: That`s Casey Anthony`s fault. Don`t lay that on Baez.

ROCKWELL: Exactly. No, no, no, I`m not blaming anybody. But she has absolutely, with these fantastic stories, painted herself into such a corner that if there is ever a trial, she is going to have to respond to everything that the state throws out.

GRACE: I want to go back to the search. It`s just about to commence.

Mike Brooks, how will it work?

BROOKS: Well, Nancy, you know, Leonard Padilla and his bounty hunters, along with Tim Miller who is the best in the business, they will put -- they`re starting to put everything together.

Tim is putting -- starting to put together his whole game plan along with Orange County and all these thousands of volunteers that are going to be out there. And I`m glad to see that they`re going to have volunteers who are actually, you know, like bounty hunters, retired police officers, firefighters, who know how to handle evidence should they come across it.

But it`s -- it could be a lengthy process. But I hope they will find it and I -- I really think they will.

GRACE: Leonard Padilla, weigh in.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPING TO SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, you know, the other day somebody was saying, what makes you think -- I says if we have to drain every pond and gut every gator, we`re going to find little Caylee.

We`ve got the people, we`ve got the manpower and we`ve got the area and we`ve got the best, Tim Miller. Tim Miller, directing this search is the best there is.

GRACE: Leonard, you spent time with the Anthonys. How do you think they are responding to this memo, this bombshell that the defense just dropped on us?

PADILLA: Well, right now they`ve got a situation they have to decide. Are they going to stick with Casey in this thing about the baby being alive or are they going to go and help us search for little Caylee and be ho honorable about it?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: There is only one reason that my daughter would keep her mouth shut and my daughter would sacrifice going to prison for the rest of her life. It`s to protect this child.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Cindy and George wholeheartedly believe their granddaughter is still alive and their daughter is innocent.

G. ANTHONY: There`s a lot more to the story than you guys can ever, every imagine. And it`s all going to come out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to the lines, Diane in Louisiana, hi, Diane.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: And hello to all of our Cajun friends. How are you tonight? What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are just fine. You`re great. Me and my sister love you. You should have run for president. Is it true.

GRACE: Don`t have the stomach for politics.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you heard that Casey got a letter from Scott Peterson in jail?

GRACE: Diane, Diane, it`s not true. I know it`s all in the tabloids. Isn`t that correct, Natisha Lance? That`s all B.S.?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s correct, Nancy. It`s not true whatsoever. There`ve been report saying that they have some type of love affair going on and once they`re released they`re going to come together. But it`s completely not true.

GRACE: Once they are released?

LANCE: If they were released.

GRACE: OK.

Back to Kathi Belich with WFTV, I understand the defense actually doesn`t mind that this memo has been made public?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: It seems like that is where it would have come from. I`ve talked to the prosecutor`s office here. They call it outrageous that a document like this was released before it`s been in -- filed in court.

The judge is not aware of this document and it`s -- now the public is aware of it. They are calling it inexcusable.

GRACE: Does that mean that -- does that mean, Drew Petrimoulx, that the defense leaked it?

PETRIMOULX: You know, we don`t know that for sure, but I mean, I`m sure you could ask your lawyers that some of the things they do just don`t make sense on one hand arguing that Caylee is definitely alive and on the other hand laying out a case for why she shouldn`t get the death penalty because Caylee died on accident.

So a lot of the thing that the attorney has done doesn`t really make sense.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant First-Class Lawrence Ezell, 30, Portland, Texas, killed Iraq. On a third tour, also served in Afghanistan, highly decorated. Awarded the Bronze Star, Army Commendation medal, Army Achievement medal.

Dreamed of being a cop or military. Leaves behind grieving widow Christy and 2-year-old son, Tristan.

Lawrence Ezell, American hero.

Thank you to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/05/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

More Investigative Documents Released in Casey Anthony Murder Case

Aired November 6, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee not seen 20 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell. In the last hours, 500-plus pages of highly sensitive police investigative files released. We learn tot mom admits she refuses to cooperate in the search for Caylee, repeatedly saying cops will not, quote, "break" her. She even bragged psychological testing confirmed she`s normal and that she`s never had a single mental health problem. Well, somebody should tell her defense team because they`re claiming little Caylee may have died from an overdose because mom Casey`s depressed or has a mental defect.

A leak from inside the prosecutor`s office says they will not seek the death penalty. These bombshell documents just released also reveal grandfather George physically sick to his stomach describing when he smelled mom Casey`s car and his gut-wrenching fear little Caylee was dead in the trunk. More friends reveal mom Casey never mentions a baby-sitter or shows any concern after Caylee goes missing. More of mom Casey`s web of lies emerges, even lying to her own lawyer. The defense files a motion demanding forensics from Tennessee`s Oak Ridge lab, all the tips, crime scene photos, investigative reports. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: There`s only one reason that my daughter would keep her mouth shut and my daughter would sacrifice going to prison for the rest of her life. That`s to protect the child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The defense insists that Caylee Anthony is alive. But at the same time, the defense is arguing if Caylee is dead, that it was, quote, "almost certainly a tragic accident," and that Caylee could have been poisoned by chloroform or she could have died while she was sedated from an unwitting overdose of sedative. The defense document describes Casey as troubled, possibly depressed.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: She opened up to me and said, Mom has thrown it in my face many times before that I`m an unfit mother.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Until all the evidence comes in and I actually know what the evidence is, I`m not going to let her go as long as I have a breath in my body.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us. Tonight. -the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Caylee is not dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We all believe she`s alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In hundreds of pages of new discovery documents, we learn George Anthony believes that if he`s lost Caylee, he`s lost Casey, too, the interview ending abruptly when George Anthony tells investigators he`s feeling sick and later vomits.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony`s father, George, told investigators, I believe that there`s someone dead back there and I hate to say the word human. He told them when he opened the trunk of the car, he said to himself, Please don`t let this be my Caylee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: I don`t like the smell in the car.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The defense document cites Casey`s lack of emotion after Caylee`s disappearance as proof that Casey is not normal, possibly suffering from mental or emotional stress.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How come everybody`s saying that you`re not upset, that you`re not crying, that you show no caring of where Caylee is at all?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: Because I`m not sitting here (DELETED) crying every two seconds!

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The document also argues that the death penalty is not an appropriate sentence in this case because Casey is young and she`s never had a criminal record.

CINDY ANTHONY: She is not a murderer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I will lie, I will steal and do whatever I can to find my daughter.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Drew, how did we get these documents?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, today the state attorney`s office released 500 pages of new documents, and we`re getting a very interesting look into how George Anthony acts behind closed doors when he`s only talking to investigators. He says that when he went to go pick up Casey`s car from the tow truck company that he was afraid that Caylee was in the trunk just by the smell that was coming from outside.

GRACE: OK. Hold on. Hold on. I asked you how these documents were released. That`s what I asked you.

PETRIMOULX: It was released by the state attorney`s office. This is the discovery.

GRACE: Why? Why was it released to the public, though? How does the media get their mitts on it?

PETRIMOULX: It was basically e-mailed to our newsroom desk. This is something that Jose Baez has been asking for, and I`m not, you know, completely 100 percent sure of how that legal process works, but just like we`ve gotten all these other thousands of pages, they were, you know, basically e-mailed to our newsdesk.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Angie in California. Hi, Angie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How`re you doing?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would like to find out about if they`ve ever questioned Casey or anything to do with -- before Caylee ever went missing, the parents said she was working and we know she wasn`t working and we know there was no Zenaida, so none of her friends seem to have seen the baby very often. What was she doing all that time even before Caylee became missing?

GRACE: Out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. What was she doing?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: Well, most of the time, her parents were watching Caylee. Sometimes her friends said that she would bring Caylee with them to party and she would put Caylee to bed early and Caylee would sleep through the parties. But most of the time, the grandparents were watching Caylee.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony`s father, George, told investigators, I don`t want to believe that I have raised someone and brought someone in this world that could do something to another person. I don`t want to believe that. But he went on to tell them, I believe -- I believe that there`s someone dead back there, and I hate to say the word human. I hate to say that. He told them when he opened the trunk of the car, he said to himself, Please don`t let this be my Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He told investigators his daughter, Casey, lives on the edge, that she takes things as far as she can take them and then she piles on more. He said they caught her in lies about work, money, and said she`s really good with computers. George Anthony also told sheriff`s investigators that the very first night they found out Caylee was missing, Cindy told him, We lost her, we lost her. When he asked who, she said, Caylee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Drew, is it true that she actually brags that police won`t "break" her to get her to tell the truth, that she`s almost proud she`s not cooperating in the search for little Caylee?

PETRIMOULX: Yes, well, this comes from an interview with Department of Children and Families, where she basically says that the sheriff`s office is trying to break her and make her admit to something that she didn`t do. She tells them that she won`t break and that her and her attorney are ready to take this to trial.

GRACE: And she also goes on to brag that she has been psychologically examined and there`s absolutely nothing wrong with her?

PETRIMOULX: Yes, she talks about the evaluations that she got before she would be allowed to be let out of jail that first time and said that those tests showed that she didn`t have any mental problems.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, felony prosecutor out of Atlanta Eleanor Dixon, defense attorney out of Atlanta Peter Odom, and New York`s Mickey Sherman, criminal defense attorney and author of "How Can You Defend Those People?"

So Eleanor, bye-bye mental defect defense.

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Oh, exactly, Nancy. I mean, it`s her own words coming back to haunt her. She couldn`t have said it better herself. And as a prosecutor, I would hammer that home.

GRACE: Also with me tonight, a very special guest joining us exclusively, attorney Mark Nejame. He is the attorney for George and Cindy Anthony. He is a veteran trial lawyer trying to help the grandparents. He is not in any way involved in the defense of Casey Anthony.

Mr. Nejame, thank you for being with us. I was especially interested in these documents where your client, George Anthony, says he was physically sick -- he was sick when he was recounting to police -- in fact, he went and threw up. He was recounting to police a story of when he got to that car and he smelled the smell, and these documents say he was muttering, Please don`t let it be Caylee in that car trunk.

MARK NEJAME, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: Yes, it`s fully been -- you know, this is -- this -- these documents have been here for a while. They`ve just been disclosed to the public. And it`s the point we`ve been wanting to make that I`ve been making all along. These are grandparents who have been going through an unimaginable hell. And they speak for themselves. You know, for anybody who`s been so vicious to suggest that they`ve had anything to do with this, these are the documents that, you know, we knew would be coming out, that these parents -- these grandparents are just devastated and were from the onset.

GRACE: You know, George Anthony -- everyone, we`re talking about little Caylee`s grandfather. He said that when he drove up to the home that evening, grandmother Cindy was pacing back and forth and back and forth out in front of the house, and her first words were, We lost her, we lost her. And he said, Who? She said, Caylee, we lost her. What did she mean by that?

NEJAME: Well, it`s obviously not my place to be commenting about that. We talked about before that the state is prosecuting this, and you know, my clients are going to be called as witnesses and have already been questioned by law enforcement. So we`re going to leave that up to them. But I think it clearly shows that these are two grandparents who were completely blindsided by these unfolding facts and that they`ve just been - - you know, found themselves in an unimaginable hell.

GRACE: I understand that your client, Cindy Anthony, has been very opposed in the past to Tim Miller with Equusearch coming and searching for possible remains of Caylee. Why?

NEJAME: That`s not correct. Tim is here with me right now. Tim and Cindy had a meeting in my office today...

GRACE: Recently. I said in the past.

NEJAME: Well, in the past, there was a misunderstanding. Cindy -- when Tim first came -- I think Tim can better speak to it. There was an understanding that he was coming here to search for a Caylee who was still with us. Tim ended up primarily doing a search, a ground search for a Caylee who`s no longer with us. And there was miscommunication, misunderstanding. Cindy fully supports and appreciates the people that are going out and assisting any positive way they can, whether they believe Caylee is with us or Caylee`s not with us.

And so that`s what we`ve been assisting them, is to communicate. Now there`s a full and complete understanding, and there were tears and there were hugs and there was an understanding. And I think that -- in fact, I know George and Cindy fully support everybody`s assistance, especially Tim`s, so that we can get some answers. And what`s being set up is a ground search and a live search. So we`ve got all answers for all people.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: Every focus that`s on Casey takes effort away from Caylee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I have no clue where my daughter is. Yes, that is the truth.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there a moment that you`ve ever thought for a second that maybe Casey had a hand in Caylee`s disappearance?

CINDY ANTHONY: Why go through all of that? Why put us through all of that? It doesn`t make sense. She would do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A web of lies -- that`s what police say they are dealing with in the search for Caylee Anthony.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

TONY LAZZARO, CASEY`S FORMER BOYFRIEND: Casey is a very effective liar. I think I`d use the word diabolical to describe the way she lies.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`d lie to your parents and friends concerning your child`s whereabouts.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Anthonys admit Casey has lied to them again and again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: You`re blaming that you`re sitting in the jail? Blame yourself for telling lies.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not going around and around with you, you know, because that`s pretty pointless.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She lied to the cops. She lied to everybody.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re tired of the lies. No more lies. What happened to Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Over 500 documents inside the investigation just released, stunning interviews with grandfather George Anthony. We find out so much of his thinking.

To Kathi Belich with WFTV. Remember what he said in these documents regarding the pool in the back yard?

BELICH: Yes. Apparently, at some time around June 24, he believes he saw that the ladder to the pool was not safely stowed the way they did stow it so that Caylee could not get to the pool. And they -- he and Cindy had an argument about that. She accused him of being careless because, you know, it wasn`t safe for Caylee. He said he didn`t use the pool. And then they started to theorize that possibly that ladder was like that and possibly that had something to do with Caylee`s disappearance, that perhaps something had happened, that she had gotten into that pool and there was some sort of accident.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. You know, Mike, when you go back to your home or your apartment after work, you know how you left it. You know what -- I do, anyway -- what lights I leave on, how I leave the windows, the door. And when you come in and you see something out of place or something unusual, you notice it. Or at least I do. When they came home and they saw that that aboveground pool ladder was, I guess, there up against the pool, they never left it like that because of Caylee.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Exactly. And you know, that has been one of the theories all along, Nancy. You know (INAUDIBLE) again, totally speculative. But that was one of the theories, that she had possibly drowned in the pool and that she`d taken the body and put it in the trunk. Now, they had also -- the cadaver dog apparently had hit on some human scent back by the little play area, which is not too far from the pool. So again, this is, again, one of the speculative theories, along with the chloroform and putting the baby in the trunk.

GRACE: Yes, but you know what? The pool theory doesn`t work...

BROOKS: No.

GRACE: ... because that does not account for the multiple searches on line for how to make chloroform.

BROOKS: Right. And the large amount of chloroform in the trunk. You know, there`s some theories -- OK, if it was a decomposing body, it would be smaller -- no, I`m not buying it. I`m thinking it`s the chloroform, just like you said, Nancy.

GRACE: And what did we learn -- to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO -- about George Anthony`s feelings regarding the defense attorney, Jose Baez?

PETRIMOULX: He basically says that (INAUDIBLE) he doesn`t like him, that he thinks that he has some kind of ulterior motive to take this case, and he doesn`t even know how that Casey is paying him.

GRACE: You know, the fee was about $5,000 up front she said she could pay and more later.

Let`s unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Dixon, Peter Odom, Mickey Sherman. What could be an ulterior motive?

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The only ulterior motive is getting publicity and getting your name out there and winding up on CNN every night as the attorney in a big case, which is not necessarily...

GRACE: Well, he certainly got his name out there. But I don`t know that it`s actually in a positive way, especially with those horrible PR relations that keep coming out. You know, Baez has not really done a bad job when he speaks publicly. He`s keeping mum. His client has spoken, Peter Odom, and that`s saying a lot. Usually, they talk like crazy when they get behind bars. He`s managed to keep a lid on her behind bars, anyway.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, certainly, Nancy. You know, we might second guess things that Baez has done, but he is doing a valiant job. And while some people might say...

GRACE: I don`t know if I`d go so far as valiant, Peter.

ODOM: But some people might say that he`s -- he`s not being seen in a positive light, but certainly, there`s a large sector out there that seems him as doing just what a defense attorney should do, vigorously representing the client.

GRACE: Well, Eleanor, speaking of not yakking -- the Department of Family and Children`s Services came over to investigate little Caylee, and mom Casey just sits down, kicks back and says, Hey, mom, put a sock in it, I`m going to do the talking. And she retells her whole story to these case workers. They`re like therapists.

DIXON: You`re right, Nancy, and they`re in a totally different position than law enforcement agents. And you know, it`s just another way that her story is getting out there and another way that you can impeach her perhaps later on with her lies.

GRACE: Yes, the Constitution protects you from police questioning, but not from blabbing to, you know, basically, volunteers that come in to look at a case.

To Kathi Belich. What did she tell the Department of Family and Children Services? We learned that in these documents, as well. She went on and on and on.

BELICH: She did. She insisted that she did still work for Universal Studios, which we all know that she did not.

GRACE: OK, wait, wait, wait. Stop right there. Leonard Padilla, did you hear what Belich just said? The DFACS workers come in and she goes, I don`t know why police keep I don`t work at Universal. I do. I`m seasonal. There are pay stubs. She`s sticking to her story no matter what, Padilla.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, here`s what happened, too. The day the caseworker came out there, there were several of us there and a couple of the people were inside. And after the caseworker left and she went through her litany of lies one more time, she turns around and she says, I`ve got to find those pay stubs. They don`t want to believe that I still work out there. And she actually started looking for the pay stubs in the room.

GRACE: You know, I`ve got to go to the shrink. Dr. Janet Taylor joining us, psychiatrist. Dr. Taylor, it`s really bizarre, and it`s something that George Anthony, we learn in these documents, said, that Casey will take things to the limit, like insisting she worked at Universal and actually taking cops to Universal. And the poor security guy didn`t know that cops knew she didn`t work there, so he was trying to find the name of her boss and trying to find her name on the roster.

So they finally let them in. She goes all the way up to the door of the wrong building and says, OK, you guys have been looking at me the whole time. I admit I don`t work here. And just like this, she unloads on the county workers, tells the whole story again, then in front of everybody, goes to look for pay stubs that don`t exist. What is that?

DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, clearly, she believes her own lies. I mean, she has a long history of not telling the truth. Her father indicated that she`s a risk taker, and maybe in her own way, she`s just trying to game the system and see how much she can say before she actually gets pinned to something. But it`s interesting she has a way of making people believe her, and then she reels them, in and then that`s why we have just the big buckets, literally, of lies.

GRACE: And just like Anthony says, she takes it to the limit. Kathi Belich, what else did she tell the caseworkers?

BELICH: She explained how Caylee`s father had died in a car accident. He had set up a trust fund for Caylee. She talked about the baby-sitter again, Zenaida Gonzalez. And then again, she said she was tested psychologically, that she`s normal, and the sheriff`s office investigators are not going to break her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you say to the people who say your daughter has lied, that think she was up to no good and that she might have harmed your granddaughter?

CINDY ANTHONY: Well, those people don`t know my daughter. Anybody that knows Casey knows that she is a loving mother.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, the state attorney`s office has doubts on whether there`s enough evidence to seek the death penalty against Casey Anthony. We don`t if we`re going to have enough aggravating factors, he said. The case is developing. We`re still looking for a body. Bottom line, he says, death has not yet been ruled out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Mickey Sherman, criminal defense attorney and author of "How Can You Defend Those People." Let`s talk about the death penalty. Sources with in the DA`s office say they`re not seeking the death penalty, they don`t have enough aggravating circumstances. All it takes is one. And in Florida, simply the murder of a child under 12 equals an aggravated circumstance. What are they thinking?

SHERMAN: They`re thinking they don`t know what happened. And that`s the appropriate decision they`re making at this point.

GRACE: Well, they know enough to charge her with murder one.

SHERMAN: Well, there`s a big difference between just charging someone with murder one and asking for the death penalty. I think they`re making an appropriate and reasonable and cautious stance of waiting to see what comes out, what turns out, whether or not she...

GRACE: I bet you do...

SHERMAN: ... pleads guilty...

GRACE: ... don`t you!

SHERMAN: Absolutely.

GRACE: What about it, Eleanor Dixon?

DIXON: Well, Nancy, you`re completely right. It only takes one aggravating circumstance. In Florida, as you said, the death of a child less than 12 years of age, that would be one. And it`s enough for the death penalty.

GRACE: It`s also especially heinous, atrocious and cruel, which is another circumstance, Eleanor.

DIXON: Exactly. So you`ve got two. And there`s probably more, too. But think of the chloroform.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: After about 7 o`clock when I still hadn`t heard anything, I was getting pretty upset, pretty frantic.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He told investigators that his daughter Casey lives on the edge, that she takes things as far as she can take them and then she piles on more.

C. ANTHONY: Walked her to the stairs. That`s where I dropped her off a bunch of other times besides just that day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. When you dropped her off, who took her at that point?

C. ANTHONY: Zani did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can`t tell me, anybody, I can find Caylee?

C. ANTHONY: No, because every number that I`ve tried, every number that I`ve called is disconnected.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: George Anthony told sheriff`s investigators that the first night they found out Caylee was missing, Cindy told him, we lost her, we lost her. When he asked, who, she said, Caylee.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S DEFENSE LAWYER: We all believe she`s alive. And these tips are -- if there`s one credible tip in that 5,000, it`s worth us going through.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Doesn`t the key lie with her? Why do you need to rely on strangers` tips when she is the one who really can lead her in some direction?

BAEZ: Cathy, I`m not going to disclose any theories of defense or anything that we plan on bringing out in the court.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you think she`s being open and honest with you?

BAEZ: I don`t think that`s wise for me to make any statements about my communication with her.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: You`re not going to disclose anything? Well, guess what? A written memo from the defense camp has surfaced to the prosecutors asking them not to seek the death penalty. In it, it goes so far as to state the little girl may have died from an overdose of sedatives.

We learn of these police documents I`ve got in my hands right here, George Anthony states -- I told the guy will you please walk around the back of the car and looked inside with me. As I walked around, I whispered out to myself, please don`t let it be Caylee. That`s what I thought. That`s what I -- my heart was saying.

I opened it up and I saw the bag. That`s when I saw the stain. I did see a stain. It`s where the spare tire was, a basketball-sized stain. Not exactly circular.

OK. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist from John J. College of Criminal Justice, paid consultant to the Anthony defense team, there`s the stain you kept saying didn`t exist.

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Oh, I -- that`s not true, Nancy. I never said the stain didn`t exist. I think anything in that car is important physical evidence and obviously.

GRACE: So could you explain to me, Kobe.

KOBILINSKY: Yes?

GRACE: . how a stain came from an old pizza?

KOBILINSKY: How can I even comment about that?

GRACE: Because that`s what the defense said. That`s what the family said. That was the smell, that was the stain, an old pizza.

KOBILINSKY: Well, you know, that`s not science. And I deal with science. I have great respect for the legal system, I have great respect for the scientific system. I think if they`ve both got to be held to the highest standards and that`s what I`m trying to do.

GRACE: I respect that, Kobe. You know, I`ve known you for many, many years. I don`t necessarily respect what you say about this case, but I do agree with that.

We are taking your calls live. To Betsy in Indiana. Hi, Betsy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, how are you, dear?

GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First of all, I want to say I love those twins of yours.

GRACE: Oh, I do, too. I do, too. I was up with little Lucy all night long and it was worth it. At 1:00 a.m. she was just sitting there looking at me. Like let`s play.

What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just want to ask, remember when the grandfather George said that wasn`t my granddaughter`s body in the trunk of that car -- who was it?

GRACE: Excellent question.

Back to Peter Odom, if it wasn`t little Caylee, does that mean there`s a third -- a third person we don`t know about? Another dead body? That`s been in a trunk?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think it`s really hard to sort of rely on what George Anthony said. This is a man that is suffering great (INAUDIBLE) of grief.

GRACE: That`s not the point. That`s not the point. There was a dead body in the trunk according to forensics. If not Caylee, then that means somebody died up in the trunk?

ODOM: If the defense is pursuing a strategy that Caylee is still alive, in my opinion, that`s a bad strategy. No one reasonably believes that at this point.

GRACE: So that means, Mickey Sherman, they`ve got to fall back on insanity or mental defect? Her client just bragged to people -- she`s perfectly sane.

MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THOSE PEOPLE?": Well, everything we`ve said tonight seems to prove that she`s a pathological liar. And that seems to be the foundation for maybe.

GRACE: Not a defense. Not yet, anyway.

SHERMAN: Well, it`s -- the foundation for someone who`s not all there. And I think that is maybe to see that they`re trying to play right now.

GRACE: Hey, Sherman.

SHERMAN: The diminished capacity.

GRACE: You want to tell me you`ve never told a pack of lies in your whole life?

SHERMAN: Never, never. And I just did another one.

GRACE: See, you just did another one.

That is not the framework, Dr. Janet Taylor, for any type of mental defect defense.

DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, absolutely. And clearly -- I mean in the realm of the law, I don`t know, but the framework for mental defect defense, but there can -- you can be psychotic and know right from wrong.

And she has no past history of any mental ailments. She herself said her psychological was normal. She`s never been arrested in the past. Sure, she`s had some ups and downs.

GRACE: OK, Doctor -- Dr. Taylor.

TAYLOR: That`s not enough. Yes. Yes.

GRACE: Are you sitting down?

TAYLOR: Yes.

GRACE: You sure?

TAYLOR: Yes.

GRACE: Good. I have in my hand here more of the documents just released as we went to air where Casey Anthony, the tot mom, says she is going to have a new vocation and that is going to be, "looking for missing children." Thoughts.

TAYLOR: Well, she certainly would be an expert at what it took to find a missing child in terms of how we -- you know, a mom could lose a child and not talk to the police about it. But, you know, maybe she`s turned over a new leaf and is going to help other people.

GRACE: Right. She could start by helping police right now.

Out to Mark Nejame, a special guest joining us tonight in a primetime exclusive. He is the attorney for George and Cindy Anthony. He`s a veteran trial lawyer there in the Florida area.

Mr. Nejame, you have not been happy with some of the comments the bounty hunter Leonard Padilla has made about the case. Why?

MARK NEJAME, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: You mean P.T. Barnum? I think a lot of Leonard personally. But, you know, there`s a lot of speculation that he fuels without having really a lot of facts.

GRACE: Such as?

NEJAME: Well, he started off -- with the first one I remember was within 24 hours of me getting on the case, it was suggested that I help negotiate some sort of book or movie deal that that`s been rampant to several people. I have not made one penny or negotiated anything for any type of deal nor have my clients. You know, to take -- to take speculations in the.

GRACE: Speaking of money.

NEJAME: Uh-huh.

GRACE: Were your clients paid for footage, photos, or interviews?

NEJAME: Absolutely not. You`ve made more money on this case than they have. The fact of the matter is.

GRACE: Let me clarify something.

NEJAME: No, allow me to finish.

GRACE: No. No. No.

NEJAME: Allow me to finish. They have not made a penny.

GRACE: You cannot make a comment like that, Mr. Nejame.

NEJAME: I did. Why?

GRACE: Because I get paid.

NEJAME: This is fueling your ratings.

GRACE: I get paid.

NEJAME: This is fueling your ratings.

GRACE: . the same paycheck whether I ever met you or whether there had ever been a Casey Anthony just as when I was a prosecutor. I didn`t get a bonus when I got a conviction or somebody got over on me in court. Not at all.

NEJAME: When ratings increase.

GRACE: No. No. Not at all. Believe me, there are not bonuses based on your clients` case.

NEJAME: Nobody is saying that but.

GRACE: No.

NEJAME: Hold on.

GRACE: You just said that, Mr. Nejame.

NEJAME: I said that you...

GRACE: Yes, you did.

NEJAME: If you`ll allow me to finish, I don`t know what you`re afraid of hearing, if you`d allow me to finish I`ll tell you.

GRACE: I`d like to hear the truth.

NEJAME: Then stop interrupting me. The fact of the matter is, is that you and other news agencies go ahead and fuel wild speculation, rampant speculation at times to increase.

GRACE: Such as.

NEJAME: Well, like the dress that was found. I knew about it, law enforcement knew about it.

GRACE: Oh.

NEJAME: Hold on, let me finish. If you want to hear the facts, then allow me to finish.

GRACE: But you`re lying.

NEJAME: Hold on. And you said on TV.

GRACE: But you are lying.

NEJAME: Got an 18-month-old child. I watched your show. An 18- month-old child could sit in a size 5 or 6. You`ve got a 1-year-old. You know darn well that no 18-month-old child could wear a 5 or 6 dress.

We knew it was a fake from the beginning. I spoke to law enforcement, I spoke to Tim Miller. That was going ahead and feeding something what we all knew was.

GRACE: Could you hurry up.

NEJAME: . not the dress.

GRACE: . before have to go to commercial break so I can address your pack of lies, Mr. Nejame.

NEJAME: Don`t you dare call me a liar because you know darn well I`m telling the truth.

GRACE: Number one, our producer here has a 2-year-old little girl that wears a size 6.

NEJAME: A 6.

GRACE: Number two -- the same.

NEJAME: Ask any mother.

GRACE: The same size as the little girl`s dress that was found. Number two.

NEJAME: Not true. Not true.

GRACE: When your client -- when your client went on the air with the little dress that belonged to Caylee, we showed that the moment that came out to say here`s the dress, the dress that was found was not Caylee`s. And the night that we discovered a dizzy dress had been found, we called you for comment. And you would not comment.

So don`t show up two months later.

NEJAME: Oh no, no, no. You`re not telling the truth now.

GRACE: . and try to make it look like there`ve been a big, a big conspiracy.

NEJAME: You -- you -- no, no conspiracy but it was sensationalized. We all knew the night before that that wasn`t the dressed.

GRACE: Why didn`t you call our producers.

NEJAME: Excuse me.

GRACE: . when we told you and asked you.

NEJAME: It was up -- because it was up to law enforcement to address it.

GRACE: So now you`re on the air whining.

NEJAME: Anybody -- anybody -- nobody`s whining.

GRACE: We got it wrong, but you knew that.

NEJAME: Excuse me. You`re the one whining. I`m calling you on the carpet for sensationalizing something.

GRACE: No. No, sir, you are not.

NEJAME: . that any mother in America would know that a 1 1/2-year-old child does not wear a size 5 or 6.

GRACE: No. No.

NEJAME: Don`t tell me no. You know that`s correct.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Was missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony poisoned by chloroform?

Orlando affiliate WFTV is reporting that despite repeated claims from her mother`s attorneys that she`s alive, they`re now planning a memo to prosecutors that if the little girl is dead, it was, quote, "almost certainly a tragic accident." And they`re hinting the death could have been caused by the overdose of a sedative.

Even though the little girl has never been found, her mother, Casey, is charged with first-degree murder in her disappearance and could face the death penalty.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: As we go to air tonight, just released, over 500 pages of investigative files from police.

I want to follow up with what the attorney for George and Cindy Anthony was stating earlier suggesting that the media had lied about a little dress volunteers had found.

I want to go to our producer, Norm, who`s standing in the control room. Let`s see Norm. There you are.

Norm, you have a daughter, Isabelle. When she was 2, was she wearing a child`s size 6?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, at certain brands.

GRACE: Are you sure?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.

GRACE: OK. I guess, you know, I got a lot to learn as a new mother. The twins just turned 1. But there you have it, from the horse`s mouth.

Mr. Nejame, have your clients taken a polygraph yet? George and Cindy Anthony?

NEJAME: We`ve checked with the expert polygraph officer with -- the expert polygraph.

GRACE: What? I`m sorry, you`re stuttering.

NEJAME: Excuse me, I stuttered, I stuttered, and I apologize.

GRACE: Yes. Just yes or no.

NEJAME: Slow down. Slow down. I made a mistake. I apologize. The answer is we have checked with an expert polygraph administrator.

GRACE: But, but, but.

NEJAME: Don`t interrupt me, please, don`t be so rude. We checked with a qualified polygraph.

GRACE: Yes, no?

NEJAME: One more time. That`s the second time you`ve interrupted me. We`ve attempted.

GRACE: Third, actually.

NEJAME: All right, well, then continue to be rude. Are you through?

GRACE: Yes, no, have they taken a poly?

NEJAME: The answer is, is that we have checked and they are not proper candidates for taking them.

GRACE: Why?

NEJAME: Because she is on medication.

GRACE: Really?

NEJAME: Yes.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks.

NEJAME: Wait -- would you not.

GRACE: Mike, how many people have taken -- take polygraphs that are on medication? I mean.

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Tell me someone almost in the United States anymore, Nancy, that`s not on some kind of medication. That is not a disqualifier for taking a polygraph.

GRACE: I want to go back to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Kathi, these documents that have been released are bombshell, especially when the tot mom goes on and on voluntarily to DFAC workers, Family and Children Welfare, that come to the home.

What possessed her? What does she discuss with them?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: Well, again, she talks about the same things that she told investigators that we now know are not true. They described her as being very smooth, very cool, very emotionally detached.

She was actually telling them that she might get overemotional and may not be able to tell them what they need to know. But they actually described her as quite the opposite. And she actually went on to say also that she enjoyed working with the agencies and volunteers that were looking for her daughter.

There`s no evidence that she ever did that. And then she went on to say as you said earlier that now she`d like this new vocation of helping with missing children.

GRACE: Is it true that the state, Drew Petrimoulx, the prosecutors, are asking for a gag order?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes. Well, basically what they said is they`re asking that even people that worked for the sheriff`s office, the state attorney`s office, Jose Baez, anyone that works for his law firm, the Anthony family themselves, all stopped talking about this case.

They even mentioned your show and Dr. Kobilinsky on there saying that all this talk about specifics of the case is, you know, detrimental to the investigation, detrimental to this whole thing and they want everyone to stop all of this conversation about evidence.

GRACE: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I understand, Kathi Belich, that another commissary order was made by the tot mom from behind bars and now she`s getting pastries. What happened to gruel behind bars? Now there`s pastries?

BELICH: Getting pop tarts and a lot of snacks and a Spanish-American dictionary among other things that she`s ordering from the jail. I can`t explain.

GRACE: You know, I want to take your calls right now, everybody. Joining us right now, Kathi Belich, Drew Petrimoulx, Mark Nejame, the attorney for George and Anthony, and the rest of our panel.

Donna in Massachusetts, Hi, Donna.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. My daughter Corine(ph) and I think you`re great and we have to say thank you for your dedication and compassion and don`t ever change, please.

GRACE: Thank you. You can tell that to the defense bar on the show tonight. Go ahead, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Someone put a hot pocket in his pocket. But anyways, my question was this. There was a person that saw her coming out of the woods. Was there ever a shovel found or any type of dirt or anything to that effect ever tested?

GRACE: What about it, Kathi Belich? What do we know about that sighting and whether any dirt has been tested?

BELICH: What we do know is the dirt was found in her car trunk. We know that a shovel from her neighbor was tested and according to the reports we`ve gotten so far, there`s not a whole lot of evidence there that would tell you one way or the other what went on.

As far as that shovel that an eyewitness claims to have seen in her hands coming out of the woods, we don`t know where that shovel is. And investigators plan to go back to that area and search this weekend as well.

GRACE: Speaking of the search this weekend, and it`s headed up by Tim Miller of Texas Equusearch, and he is with us tonight.

Tim, as always, it`s good to see you. I understand that you have some extremely sophisticated maps you`re using in the search. What are they?

TIM MILLER, HEAD OF EQUUSEARCH, RESUMING SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, we`ve got actually three-dimensional maps. It`s $150,000, it`s a software program itself and we`re going to be doing a lot of flying tomorrow, putting the maps together.

We`ve got tremendous amount of mapping together right now. And Nancy, I think this search could come off as one of the largest searches in history for a missing person. And, again, Caylee has just grabbed the hearts of everybody across America and as huge as growing by the second.

GRACE: How many team leaders are you going to have?

MILLER: We`ve got over 250 team leaders right now alone, not counting the volunteers coming. And so far I think I`ve flown in 32 people as a core team. And it`s -- everybody is looking forward to hopefully bringing this thing to a close this weekend.

GRACE: You know, I pray, I pray that you`re right. So the Anthonys can have some peace of mind.

As we go to break, happy birthday to a little 12-year-old, our New York friend crime fighter Sara. She is a champion for our military heroes and has created a youth initiative called Victoria`s Veterans in her hometown. She is sending cheer and cookies to veterans.

Happy birthday, wonderful Sara.

And tonight, we ask again for your prayers for Attorney Sandy Schiff. Her leukemia has returned and she needs our thoughts and prayers now more than ever.

Sandy, stay strong.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Straight out to the lines. Loraine in New Jersey, hi, Loraine.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have a question. I think we`re all hoping that the search turns up something so the parents get closure over this. But what happens if they do the search and they do not find anything?

GRACE: You know, good question.

Leonard Padilla, what would be next?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPING TO SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Let me go backwards on something. You know that stain you`ve been talking about? When we brought it up, Cindy told us that that stain was there in the car in the year 2000 when they bought the car for Lee. So any other change in her attitude or discussion about that would be totally different.

Now, if the body is not located in a search, obviously, the defense will say see, she`s alive and she`s somewhere. And then this whole thing possibly will continue. But I believe, and Tim will tell you the same thing, I just got to believe we`re going to find the body.

GRACE: Hey, Leonard, I know you were called Barnum in a circus person.

PADILLA: P.T. Barnum? Let me tell you, let me tell you.

GRACE: No, no, no. Hold on.

PADILLA: Hold on. P.T. Barnum.

GRACE: Have you noticed that people don`t like what you`re saying, they attack you.

PADILLA: P.T. Barnum`s biggest act was Tom Thumb. He made more money by getting him on -- out in the public than any other act he had.

GRACE: And your point is?

PADILLA: Well, I`m not the only one sitting here in front of your camera here tonight.

GRACE: Tell it. Tell it, brother.

All right, everybody, let`s stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Chad Caldwell, 24, Spokane, Washington, killed Iraq. On a third tour, also served Afghanistan. Awarded two army commendation medals, risked his life saving a lieutenant colonel and a pregnant woman trapped after a bombing.

Loved skateboarding. Dreamed of a military career. Leaves behind parents Carol and Mark, brother Justin, sister Christa. Widow and high school sweetheart Rachel. Sons Trevor and Cohen.

Chad Caldwell, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us.

And tonight, a special good night from New Jersey, friends of the show, two little crime fighters, my Liz`s sons, Koa and Kye. They`re naturals, totally naturals.

Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/06/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

More George Anthony Interrogation Tapes Released

Aired November 7, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee not seen 20 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell. Just released today, caught on tape, grandfather George Anthony physically sick to his stomach describing the smell in mom Casey`s car and his fear Caylee dead in the trunk. And tonight, we have the tapes. On those tapes, from her father`s own mouth, we hear about tot mom Casey Anthony`s lifestyle, night after night out at Fusian lounge, a string of lovers, and Casey Anthony`s web of lies in the days and weeks after Caylee goes missing. This after 500-plus pages of highly sensitive police investigative files released.

And tonight, the search for Caylee back on. Texas Equusearch, a team of bounty hunters from across the country and literally thousands of volunteers converge in Orlando, mapping out key search zones by land, by air to find Caylee. Target? Heavily-wooded areas near the Orlando International Airport and the Anthony home. It`s all based on investigative leads and mom Casey`s cell phone pings placing the tot mom in the exact area at the time little Caylee goes missing. But still, tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: I was really shocked to find out she was hanging out at this Fusian club. I guess that`s how she`s met all these people in the last two, two-and-a-half months. That`s what seems like that`s when Casey went really different for me.

Oh, after we pulled inside that garage, she said, her exact words were, Jesus Christ, what died? That`s exactly what she said. But then she said, in a way, she says, George, it was the pizza, right? And I said, Yes, it was the pizza. And that`s what left it go with that. But I`m sitting here as a grandfather, a father, as George Anthony and as a guy who smelled the smell before years ago and you just never forget. I even set my nose down on it and I`m concerned.

Where this is leading, I don`t want to think about it. I don`t want to think about that, but I had bad vibes the very first day when I got that car. I can be straight with you guys and hope it stays in the confines of us three. I don`t want to believe that I have raised, you know, someone and brought someone in this world that could do something to another person. I don`t want to believe that. And if it happens, all I can do is ask, if you guys can please call me so I can prepare my wife because it`s going to kill her.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, a hometown Navy officer gunned down in cold blood. No, not in Iraq, not in Afghanistan, in upscale Virginia suburbs, and the tragedy unfolds directly in front of the victim`s two little girls, his fiancee and the family dog on a stroll in a quaint, pristine neighborhood. Tonight, the manhunt. Who killed Navy Lieutenant Todd Cox (ph)?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We went from planning a wedding to a funeral. And it`s just the same nightmare every day you wake up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A fiancee desperate for help, speaking out after her future husband brutally gunned down. Naval Lieutenant Todd Cox went for a walk with his family. Out of nowhere, a pick-up truck pulls up, a gunman walks up to Todd and fires at point-blank range, hitting Todd multiple times, the brutal murder right in front of his own fiancee and family. Now his fiancee begs for just one tip, so justice is served.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think for the whole family, we deserve answers, and whoever did this needs to pay for what they`ve done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening, I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, bombshell in the desperate search for a beautiful 3- year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: The wrecker -- I don`t know what the gentleman`s name, I still don`t know. I`m sure you guys know by now. But he -- as I opened up the door, he says, Whoa, does that stink! And I said -- I sat in the car for a second, opened up the passenger door because I was trying to vent that thing. And I smell, and I`m, like, Oh, God. I tried to start the car for a second, then I said, No, George, if there`s something wrong, you got to find out now. You can`t take it away.

I told the guy, I said, Will you please walk around to the back of this car and look inside (INAUDIBLE) As I walked around, I don`t believe I said to him anything out loud. I think I whispered out to myself, Please don`t let this be my Caylee. That`s what I thought. That`s what I -- my heart was there. Opened it up, and that`s when I seen that bag. I did see a stain. I think it`s right about where the spare time is at, basketball- size or something around there.

I have the same friggin` feeling that I did the day we found the car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every tip that we get that`s out of state, the FBI calls up, not local agencies.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m not trying to get sick.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m trying to be cool. But right now, my -- I`m just -- I don`t feel good.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need a walk? Here. Come on. Let`s go for a walk. (INAUDIBLE) take a walk. I think we got everything we need.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, George isn`t feeling good. He`s throwing up back here.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Just recounting what he went through made grandfather George Anthony physically sick, George and Cindy Anthony taken aback when they learned their little girl, their little granddaughter, has been gone over a month before tot mom Casey Anthony ever reveals it to them.

Straight out to Mark Williams at WNDB Newstalk 1150. What do we learn? You know, Mark, it`s very rare that juries, much less us, the public, gets to hear the actual interviews that police make during their interrogations.

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, Nancy, one thing about these bombshell audiotapes, it shows you a different side of George Anthony we didn`t know existed. These explosive audiotapes just released -- we`ll hear them a little bit later on the show -- are just mind-boggling. For example, he talks about pulling into his -- into the garage with his car -- actually, it was Casey`s car, Cindy, his wife coming out, saying, and we`re quoting, Jesus Christ, what died? Was it the pizza? Kind of contradicting herself. And George says, yes, it`s the pizza, knowing that it wasn`t the pizza that was rotting in the back.

Also, shockingly, they had to stop the interview with George Anthony at least once because he became physically ill when he was starting to think about the smell of death he received from the car and literally threw up right there in the investigator`s office, Nancy.

GRACE: I want to go straight out to Dr. Lilian Glass, psychologist and body language expert, author of "I Know What You`re Thinking." Dr. Glass, from my own experience after a violent crime, I remember the smell of food literally made me sick. What is the mind/body connection that when you are facing a tragedy, you literally get sick?

LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST: What happens is, you relive the situation and all of a sudden, everything just explodes, literally, because you have gone through what`s like a sensed memory. You`re reliving the whole situation, and so that`s what really made him sick, the reality of the situation.

GRACE: Joining me tonight, a famed medical examiner, Dr. Joshua Perper out of Miami jurisdiction. He`s the author of "When to Call the Doctor." Dr. Perper, it`s great to see you. Thank you for being with us. Doctor, medically speaking, we hear George Anthony physically getting sick. He had to leave the interrogation, he got so sick describing when he smelled the smell of death in the tot mom`s car and his fear as they opened up the trunk, Please don`t let it be Caylee, Please don`t let it be Caylee in the trunk. What is the mind/body connection? Why does your body physically retch when you are upset or afraid or you hear shocking news?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, our body and our mind are really one unit. In the Western world, we divide between them. And in the East, they recognize that they are one unit, and therefore, if you are upset, your parasympathetic system, nervous system, becomes involved and people become -- start to vomit. They become very pale. They become paralyzed sometimes. That`s -- those are the reactions which I expect.

GRACE: Well, you know what`s interesting, Dr. Perper, after many, many crime scenes and dead bodies I saw as a prosecutor -- none of that, blood, you name it, never made me sick at all. But when it happened to me in my personal life, that made me sick. I think you`re right. The way we view the mind/body connection is very, very separate. It`s very compartmentalized.

Everybody, we are taking your calls live. But first, let`s listen to more of these police interrogation tapes. They are just released. And is let me remind you this is extremely rare, very unusual that even a jury, much less the public, gets to hear actual police interrogations. Take a listen to grandfather George Anthony.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: What does it mean? I don`t want to think about it. I don`t want to think about that. But I had bad vibes the very first day when I got that car. I can be straight with you guys and hope it stays in the confines of us three. I don`t want to believe that I have raised, you know, someone and brought someone in this world that could do something to another person. I don`t want to believe that. And if it happens, all I can do is ask if you guys can please call me so I can prepare my wife because it`s going to kill her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I first saw you that night, when I first came to your house, there was a mention of the car and there was a mention of what you smelled in the car. Do you remember what you told me?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes. I believe that there`s -- something was dead back there. And I hate to say the word human. I hate to say that. When I first went there to pick up that vehicle, I got within three feet of it, I could smell something. You look up and you say, Please don`t let this be. Please don`t let this be. Because I`m thinking of my daughter and my granddaughter first. I glance in the car on the passenger side, I see her seat`s there and I see some other stuff around in it. As I walk around to the driver`s side and I put the key in it, I said, Please don`t let this be what I think it is.

The wrecker -- I don`t know what the gentleman`s name, I still don`t know. I`m sure you guys know by now. But he -- as I opened up the door, he says, Whoa, does that stink! And I said -- I sat in the car for a second, opened up the passenger door because I was trying to vent that thing. And I smell, and I`m, like, Oh, God. I tried to start the car for a second, then I said, No, George, if there`s something wrong, you got to find out now. You can`t take it away.

I told the guy, I said, Will you please walk around to the back of this car and look inside (INAUDIBLE) As I walked around, I don`t believe I said to him anything out loud. I think I whispered out to myself, Please don`t let this be my Caylee. That`s what I thought. That`s what I -- my heart was there. Opened it up, and that`s when I seen that bag. I did see a stain. I think it`s right about where the spare time is at, basketball- size or something around there.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did your wife think about it being when she first noticed it? Did she actually notice it, or did she make any comments on it?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Oh, after we pulled inside that garage, she said, her exact words were, Jesus Christ, what died? That`s exactly what she said. But then she said, in a way, she says, George, it was the pizza, right? And I said, Yes, it was the pizza. And that`s what left it go with that. But I`m sitting here as a grandfather, a father, as George Anthony and as a guy who smelled the smell before years ago and you just never forget. I even set my nose down on it and I`m concerned.

When I drove around, I told my wife, I said, This car stinks so bad, I can`t -- I`m having a hard time driving it home. It`s raining outside. I have the windows down in this car probably this much to get home. I couldn`t freaking breathe.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: You are hearing extremely rare -- this is police interrogation tapes. And this is grandfather George Anthony`s police speak to him. I`ve got to go out to Brian Reich, deputy chief with Bergen County sheriff`s office. I know you`ve been on a lot of crime scenes, as have I, and I was just trying to describe it here to the people on the set. Once you smell the smell of a dead body, a rotting body, rancid human flesh, it`s -- somebody just asked me, What is it like? It`s like nothing you`ve ever encountered before, and once you smell it, nobody has to tell you what it is. You just know. You know what it is. And you know from then on what it is.

BRIAN REICH, DEPUTY CHIEF, BERGEN COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Absolutely. It`s a very distinct smell, and it`s certainly something you`ll never forget if you`ve had the unfortunate opportunity to have to smell it. And I have smelled that smell before, and I can certainly relate to the -- to not forgetting about what it would smell like.

GRACE: I`m trying to say -- out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter helping search for Caylee Anthony. He first put up Casey Anthony`s bond, came off that bond. He`s at the Orlando search command post tonight. Leonard, I`m sure you`ve probably on crime scenes, as well. And I was trying to explain, if you imagine the worst garbage, the worst smell you`ve ever smelled and then multiply it by about 50, that`s what you get. It literally -- just the smell can make you throw up.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: That`s right. And once you`ve smelled it -- my very first experience was in Contra Costa. A lady got killed on a Friday night, I think, or Saturday morning. And Monday, we were there because she failed to appear on her bond sometime before. And as you neared that motel room, you could see that something was wrong. And we couldn`t understand why the manager hadn`t been down there or -- well, she didn`t work over the weekend. But once you smell it -- and even right now, when you`re describing and you`re talking about it, I can still smell it.

GRACE: Yes, yes.

PADILLA: And I`m telling you, once you`ve been there, you`ll never forget it.

GRACE: Never forget it.

PADILLA: I`ll never forget it.

GRACE: Everybody, extremely unusual that the public is allowed to hear police interrogation tapes. Take a listen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: I have the same friggin` feeling that I did the day we found the car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every tip that we get that`s out of state, the FBI calls up, not local agencies.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m not trying to get sick.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m trying to be cool. But right now, my -- I`m just -- I don`t feel good.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need a walk? Here. Come on. Let`s go for a walk. (INAUDIBLE) take a walk. I think we got everything we need.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, George isn`t feeling good. He`s throwing up back here.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: I was really shocked to find out she was hanging out at this Fusian club. I guess that`s how she`s met all these people in the last two, two-and-a-half months. That`s what seems like that`s when Casey went really different for me. At least, that`s what I`m getting from her friends. Whether or not that`s true or not -- maybe she was doing it months before. I don`t know. I -- I -- she`s an adult. I`ve got no control over her.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Joining us right now, Mandy Albritton. She`s the deputy director of Texas Equusearch. She`s helping to lead the search for Caylee. She`s joining us right now from the Orlando search command post. Mandy, thank you for being with us.

MANDY ALBRITTON, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Thank you, Nancy.

GRACE: The search kicks off in just hours. Explain to me, what`s the first thing you guys are doing?

ALBRITTON: Well, one the most important things we`re doing right now is we`re holding a team leader training session. And we have 500 registered team leaders who are being briefed on Texas Equusearch`s policies and procedures. We also have our staff medical examiner, who is briefing them, as well. Once they`re trained, they`ll be able to come out in the morning and manage a team of 15 people, get out into the field, and hopefully, we can bring this to a close very soon.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter helping in the search for Caylee. He has been rounding up bounty hunters from all across the country to start the search tomorrow. Leonard, I understand everybody has to wear a badge, and I`ve got the form everybody`s got to fill out. Why is that? Why does everybody have to wear a badge?

PADILLA: Well, in other things that I`ve been involved in, you don`t want to go out with 2,000 or 3,000 people searching for somebody, and then all of a sudden, you lose somebody or something takes place that you don`t really know who it happened to. So it`s very important. I mean, there are times when people say, Well, you know, everybody knows who I am. Their ego is bigger than their brain.

GRACE: Right.

PADILLA: However, everybody wears a badge. I had mine made up last night by a young lady. And Tim has got -- Tim`s got probably, without a doubt, the best search organization I`ve ever run into. And I`ve seen law enforcement with organizations across the country that do the same work. Tim`s got it down to a science. He really does.

GRACE: Everybody, that search set to kick off in the Orlando area, thousands of volunteers converging in the search for Caylee. We are live there at the search command center. We are taking your calls live. We`ll kick it off when we get back from this break.

But first, in the last hours, a guilty verdict in the 2005 tragedy inside an Atlanta courtroom. A violent offender facing a jury on charges of rape and sodomy makes his way through a courthouse, gunning down a judge, an official court reporter and deputy, all before killing a federal agent while on the run. Brian Nichols confessed to the shooting spree, but claims insanity. Superior court judge Rowland Barnes, court reporter Julie Brandau, Sheriff`s Deputy Hoyt Teasley and federal agent David Wilhelm all murdered in cold blood. Monday morning, penalty phase, Nichols facing the death penalty.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Words can`t express how proud I am to be called his daughter and to have his last name. Anybody who knows me will tell you that he`s my everything. And I am so proud that the world knows now, even under these circumstances, what a great man my father was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it a weekday, when you were working, or a weekend?

GEORGE ANTHONY: You guys are asking about the 24th? Maybe it was the 24th.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, the 24th is the day she took the cans.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Took the cans. That`s...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I guess what we`re looking at is -- is that what -- it gets back to the -- if the cans are taken on the 24th, that`s because -- that`s in your report. So we know that`s a good date.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think the thing with the pool happened...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the car is towed in the 30th.

GEORGE ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you know she`s not driving from then.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB. When he says, The pool thing, is he talking about when the ladder to the pool was misplaced?

WILLIAMS: Yes, Nancy, he was talking about that the pool area gate was open, the ladder was taken up. And that was around June 24 or so. That was the same day George Anthony had a confrontation with Casey over the gas cans that she had in the back of her car. He wanted to get close to the car, but she wouldn`t let him. It was not a pretty scene out at the Anthony household, Nancy.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Sheeba in Illinois. Hi, Sheeba.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, dear. I know that I came down pretty hard on her mother the other day. But my question is, would the lawyer -- would the lawyer -- their lawyer have them maybe get some psychological help, whether or whether or not they find Caylee? Because I really worry about them.

GRACE: Excellent question. Joining us tonight, let`s unleash the lawyers, Paul Batista and John Burres. John Burres, have you ever suggested one of your clients get help, emotional help?

JOHN BURRES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, my clients, I just suggest that all of the time. I think it`s very important that they have -- get help in a case, whether they need it or not.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

SGT. JOHN ALLEN, ORANGE COUNTY INVESTIGATOR: Do you think that Casey believes that nobody would forgive her if something happened, if some accident happened, some bad thing?

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: That`s -- that is -- that`s -- I`m not able to answer. I`m going to have to think about.

ALLEN: If she ever -- if she thinks that nobody would forgive her for.

ANTHONY: Right. Because when she started coming clean with the money she was taking, and this and that coming up, yes, she balled. I mean she literally balled. She didn`t -- because we just kept on catching her in stuff.

I`ll tell you one thing, I don`t know how one time she made a $4400 or $4,000 deposit into my wife`s account. We still don`t know how she did it. It looked very real, you know, the carbon copy type of thing, and it looked real.

CPL. YURY MELICH, ORANGE COUNTY INVESTIGATOR: Well, did she actually deposit that money or is it -- she just hand you a deposit slip that.

ANTHONY: Right. Now that`s the same amount, I believe, I gave my wife when I sold my Toyota Camry. But I sold my Camry last year, last August. That`s where I got my other car from.

MELICH: What do you think needs to be done?

ANTHONY: Have a chance to talk to her. I -- know one thing. She`ll confide in me probably to a point. Then again, my temperament of being the father might come out and say, listen, don`t give me any crap. Just tell me what`s going on. So that would be the wrong approach for her.

My -- wife is going to drill her from the toes to her head and.

(CROSSTALK)

ALLEN: And she`s not going to tell your wife. No, I really don`t think she`s going to tell her.

ANTHONY: The only one I really believe. I`ve said it before and I`ll keep saying it, her and my son have a different kind of communication that we -- even our son started telling us stuff after all this stuff happened.

ALLEN: Yes.

ANTHONY: Well, Casey told me about this guy. And she`s staying with this guy, and she`s been with this guy. And I`m like, oh man, oh man."

(END AUDIO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: And there we hear, our to Nikki Pierce with WDBO -- Nikki, the story George Anthony recounts about how his daughter presented a fake deposit slip for, like, $4,000, and it wasn`t real. The money had not deposited into the parents` account.

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes. They -- she apparently said something along the lines of having that 4,000 or $5,000 to Jose Baez, saying that she was going to present $1400 now, and the balance when she, quote, "gets out of this situation." But she simply didn`t have the money, according to George.

GRACE: You were just seeing and hearing little Caylee Anthony.

Everybody, we are taking your calls live. I want to go back to John Burress, San Francisco defense attorney.

You just said you have your clients get counseling, whether they need it or not?

JOHN BURRESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I didn`t mean whether they need it or not. Obviously, I don`t have them do counseling unless they do need it. There are two considerations there.

GRACE: But that`s what you said.

BURRESS: One, you look at whether -- I know. What you`re looking for is clinical, whether or not they really need treatment for help. And the second, you`re looking at forensic point of view, and whether or not there`s some kind of psychological disorder that may be necessary to be used in court.

GRACE: Oh, you mean, you get them evaluated whether they need it or not. OK, I get it.

BURRESS: Yes, get them evaluated, because there may be a psychological disorder in existence that you may want to use.

GRACE: Got it.

BURRESS: On the other hand, there may not be and just clinically they need help because they`re suffering.

GRACE: They need to be -- OK, I understand now. To Paul Batista.

BURRESS: And that`s not discoverable.

GRACE: To defense attorney and author of "Death`s Witness," Paul, what the caller was asking about was George and Cindy Anthony, should they have some type of help dealing with little Caylee`s disappearance or death?

PAUL BATISTA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "DEATH`S WITNESS": Well, I can speak as a human.

GRACE: And dealing with the whole Casey situation.

BATISTA: Yes, I can speak as a human being, not as a lawyer.

GRACE: As a lawyer, do you tell your clients they need counseling?

BATISTA: Almost never, Nancy. I`m a lawyer, not a doctor. If I have a client who`s in a great deal of distress, I might say, hey, Mr. Smith, maybe it`s a good idea if you get counseling. But that`s not really a legal determination. I do -- I do it as a human being.

Here -- here, it may be appropriate. George Anthony is, obviously, in a great deal of anguish, and I might say to him, George, you might see someone.

GRACE: Everybody, we are playing for you tapes that have just been released in the past hour. Police interrogation tapes of grandfather, George Anthony. And boy, are they revealing. Take a listen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ANTHONY: On Sunday we had the prayer vigil type at our house. There were 15, 18 of not only a couple friends of my son`s that knows Casey and my son very well. We talked about so much stuff. What happened in the last two years? Guys, help us out. What`s going on?

Everyone kept on telling us, Casey`s a good mom, Casey, this, Casey would call her mom. Whenever she was out with Caylee, she always had to make sure Caylee was away from alcohol or someone smoking.

That`s what they told us. Now in the last two, two and a half months, these same friends that she`s had for -- since she`s been a little one. They`ve been over our house. They`ve been out of the picture.

ALLEN: Yes.

ANTHONY: Maybe she might call them, but then she tells lie upon lie upon something else to get them going in different directions.

I don`t like this freaking attorney that she has. I can tell you that right now from personal experience, I don`t like the guy. I told you that guy, I`ve become -- my daughter talked to someone when you guys initially incarcerated her.

And I guess whoever she talked to, you know, according to my daughter now, this is what Mr. Baez told me, or Jose, I`ll just call him that, says -- told, Jose Baez, I asked someone who`s a good attorney? And she has $5,000 supposedly or at least $1400 of it, to give to him as a retainer to assist.

We did not contact this man. We initially -- when he came to our -- called us, we thought the guy was a court appointed attorney. And you know, that`s what we though, because my daughter does not -- I don`t think she has any money.

My wife and I discussed this thing about the pool. My wife, when called me one day, after she was home from work, she called me, she said, George, did you shut the gate? I said, what gate? She said, the gate around the side. I said, Cindy, I always shut it. It`s always locked or I shut it, or make sure I have it shut.

She say, well, I came home and the gate`s wide open. And by the way, thanks for taking and leaving the ladder upon on the pool. I said, I didn`t go swimming. I`m not a real swimmer. I mean I go in it to cool off and I don`t really stay in it for periods of times. I didn`t put the ladder on it. I wouldn`t do that.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight back to Nikki Pierce with WDBO, according to George Anthony, grandfather George, what theories have he and wife Cindy Anthony discussed about Caylee`s disappearance?

PIERCE: I think the one that has gotten the most discussion between the two of them is evidenced in the clip that you just played, that they had been discussing the facts that Caylee loved to swim, and sometimes, very rarely, but sometimes the ladder may be left out on the pool, so that it`s accessible to her.

And perhaps it was a tragic accident, and she drowned in that pool. That was the one that was discussed the most when they did entertain the notion.

GRACE: Yes. Back to John Burress and Paul Batista, our lawyers tonight. A tragic accident does not account for the online searches for how to make chloroform, do-it-yourself sedative, and a lot of other forensic evidence.

If there was an accident, John Burress, why not call 911?

BURRESS: Well, of course, that makes sense to do it. But, you know, I think that if there is an accident, she very well may have panicked, she may well have thought that no one is going to believe this, and therefore, she disassociated and turned to what the right thing to do was.

I mean, this is a lady who apparently had a lot of emotional problems that she was going through. I don`t think it`s inconceivable that this was an accident in terms of what happened.

GRACE: To the lines, Bonnie in Pennsylvania. Hi, Bonnie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy, thank you for taking my call.

GRACE: Yes, ma`am, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, Caylee seems to have a good relationship with her grandparents. Didn`t she -- didn`t the grandparents ever speak to Caylee about the babysitter or where she is doctoring during the day?

GRACE: Interesting question. To Natisha Lance, our producer at the search command post tonight -- Natisha, what do we know about whether little Caylee ever mentioned the nanny?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s actually something that`s has never come up. That`s a great question. But they have never mentioned anything about Zenaida Gonzalez. There`s no pictures of Zenaida Gonzalez. Cindy has said that she`s never met Zenaida Gonzalez. She never had to pick up Caylee from the babysitter Zenaida Gonzalez.

So that`s a great question one that hopefully will get answered at some point soon.

GRACE: What about it, Mark Williams?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Natisha, wholeheartedly, there has never been any discussion in the Anthony household about Zenaida. Again, no pictures, nothing like that. So she was just Zenaida -- this Zenaida person was just somebody out there in space, an imaginary person that allegedly Casey.

GRACE: So, of course, the child never mentioned it.

WILLIAMS: Yes. So.

GRACE: Everybody, quick break. We are taking your calls live.

Just released in the last hours, bombshell interrogation tapes of grandfather George Anthony we are playing for you tonight.

And as we go to break, at your request, new photos of the twins, celebrating their first birthday. I`ll post these on the Web tonight. This is the day of their birthday.

Oh, first toothbrush. There you have it. They liked it. Here we are after party. A serenade on her birthday and his birthday. This is our little music class at "Moon Soup."

The tee-shirt said, "It`s my birthday." Yes, I dressed her in a tutu. I never thought as long as I lived I would do that to a little girl. But I did it. And isn`t she beautiful? Oh, yes, we had to have bubbles. There he is.

Oh, there`s his grandfather, just before the party.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The sounds of gunfire quickly turned this tranquil neighborhood in a chaotic crime scene. At around 8:00, police say Todd Cox, his fiancee and two children were walking their dog along Beverly Avenue when the shooter gunned Cox down.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Megan says she made eye contact with the driver who would become Todd`s killer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And a truck drove by, turned around a dead end and came back and pulled over behind us, and next thing I know, Todd pushed me down on to the ground, and I hear shots. And I -- looked over, and he was on the ground.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: A military man gunned down. No, not Iraq or Afghanistan, right here on U.S. soil. The worst part -- there is a worst part. He is gunned down in front of his fiancee and two little children as they`re out walking the family dog.

Let`s go straight to Jane Velez-Mitchell, investigative reporter and now host of "ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL" at 7:00 p.m. Eastern right here on HEADLINE NEWS.

Jane, what happened?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, "ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL": Well, this is a horrific story. You see he is such a handsome Naval officer, a war hero, good family man. He is walking last April 24th at about 8:00 p.m., down a quiet tree-lined street, in a very safe neighborhood, with his fiancee. They had gotten engaged less than a month ago.

His child from a previous marriage, a 9-year-old girl, and her daughter from a previous marriage, an 11-year-old girl, are up a little further ahead with the family dog. Just a beautiful scene.

Well, suddenly, this pickup truck drives past them, goes to the dead end, and then doubles back, and then this man -- this mystery strange man, gets out of the car, and guns this Naval officer, this war hero down. Execution-style. When he tumbles to the ground, they keep pumping the bullets into him.

This individual -- now, this is not a robbery, he didn`t take anything, he didn`t really interact with anybody else, just gets back in his pickup truck, drives off. This is seven months ago, they have absolutely no suspects, they don`t know why this happened. They talked to all the lieutenant`s friends. Nobody had a grudge.

It was certainly not motivated by money, because the suspect diplomat take didn`t take anything. It is a total mystery, and the fiancee is tortured and devastated, as are the children.

And I saw the letter that she wrote to you, Nancy, and I`m really happy you`re doing this story, because that letter broke my heart.

GRACE: Everybody, I`ve got to tell you about the tip. There`s a $2,000 reward, and the tip line is 888-LOCK-U-UP, 888-562-5887. And joining me right now, everyone, we need your help.

Who killed a man who has served our country for so long, on the verge of starting a new life with his girlfriend of three years, just engaged, blending their families, out for a walk, in a good neighborhood.

With me right now, Megan McGuire, Lieutenant Todd Cox`s fiancee.

Miss McGuire, thank you for being with us.

MEGAN MCGUIRE, LT. TODD COX`S FIANCEE, DAD & NAVAL OFFICER SHOT IN COLD BLOOD: Thank you.

GRACE: When did you guys plan to get married?

MCGUIRE: Either this October or November. We were going to do it this fall.

GRACE: And I understand it was going to be an outside ceremony with all of your blended family there together?

MCGUIRE: That`s correct.

GRACE: And you had just gotten your engagement ring, right here in the diamond district in Manhattan and were so excited you took the wrong train home.

MCGUIRE: We did.

GRACE: Megan, what has your life been like since this incident, and how are the little girls?

MCGUIRE: It`s been a nightmare. The kids are doing -- they`re doing well. All of them are in counseling. Just trying to move forward with our lives.

GRACE: You know, it`s hard enough when violent crime touches your life, but at such a young age, 9 and 11? What can you remember about that night? What do you remember about the shooter?

MCGUIRE: I just looked at him briefly, as he passed us, driving down the street. Just a black male. I believe he had on a white tee shirt and blue jeans. I really saw him get out of the truck out of my peripheral vision, and before I knew it, Todd had pushed me down on the ground, and the shots started. So I didn`t really get a very -- you know, very long look at him.

GRACE: What about the truck? What do you recall about the truck? What can you tell us about that?

MCGUIRE: It was a mid `90s model Ford F150. It was white, two-toned with green. So the base of the truck was white with green stripes. Just an older, kind of beat-up work-type truck.

GRACE: Did he say anything? Were any words exchanged?

MCGUIRE: No, he didn`t say a word.

GRACE: What did you do as soon as he was shot? What did you do?

MCGUIRE: I was -- I was laying on the ground, and I had my arms over my head. Basically, once I realized what was happening, really, I just laid there and waited to get shot myself. I thought for sure that he was going to shoot me, too.

And then as soon as the shots stopped, I heard the truck start, and the truck was leaving, and I looked over.

GRACE: Everyone, Megan, hold on one moment. We`re going to break. She is going to join us afterwards, and we`re going to give you the tip line again.

But right now, "CNN HEROES."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Heroes.

WYNTON MARSALIS, MUSICIAN: The most essential thing for the development of kids are those things that they do that`s not school-related. Started this group (INAUDIBLE), a talent show at a young age. You can do whatever you put your mind to it.

I`m Wynton Marsalis and my hero uses jazz music to inspire the minds and souls of young folks.

DAVEY YARBOROUGH, CHAMPIONING CHILDREN: Back in the `80s one of my visual arts students was killed due to his involvement with drug trafficking. To have an element on the streets take a student that was so bright and so promising was a trigger for me to open a music (INAUDIBLE) program to take young people and nurture them on their time.

One, 2, and -- I really wanted to be able to see the students develop. We have a mentoring system of professional artists. Sometimes I wonder am I really getting through? When I see that light go on in the students` face, I can wake up tomorrow and do it again.

MARSALIS: He is the next step of heroic actions. He sacrifices. He actually is fulfilling himself. The students, they all admire him and look up to him. And they love him.

ANNOUNCER: Vote now at CNN.com.

CNN Heroes is sponsored by.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and more important the people who touched our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The murder weapon used to kill Jennifer Hudson`s mother, brother and nephew reportedly belonged to Hudson`s brother Jason. Jason Hudson allegedly owned a gun identical to the .45 caliber pistol used in the murders.

GRACE: What can you tell me about the weapon, Michael Sapraicone?

MICHAEL SAPRAICONE, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: It`s a killer`s gun, it`s an assassin`s gun. It`s often used by drug dealers and criminals.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: An attorney hired by tot mom Casey Anthony`s defense team is reportedly asking prosecutors to show Anthony some mercy and not seek the death penalty.

GRACE: They actually state this death did occur? It was almost certainly due to an unwitting overdose of sedative, and they allude to chloroform?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: That`s right. They say it was almost certainly a tragic accident.

GRACE: There are not bonuses based on your client`s case.

MARK NEJAME, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: Nobody`s saying that. But -- hold on.

GRACE: No, you just said that, Mr. Nejame.

NEJAME: I said that.

GRACE: Yes, you did.

NEJAME: If you`ll allow me to finish, I don`t know what you`re afraid of hearing. If you`d allow me to finish, I`ll tell you.

GRACE: I`d like to hear the truth.

TIM MILLER, HEAD OF EQUUSEARCH, RESUMING SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: The check went to you show and you all mail that to us, and we opened that this morning and it was a check from one of your viewers that said, please, this donation is for Texas Equusearch for Caylee Anthony`s search. And it is in honor of your children`s birthdays.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I want to remind you the tip line on that Virginia story is 888- LOCK-U-UP. We`re also putting the information on our Web site, CNN.com/Nancygrace.

Let`s stop and remember Marine Sergeant Glen Martinez, 31, Boulder, Colorado, killed Iraq on a second tour. Highly decorated. An Ottawa University grad. A smile lit up a room, loved baseball, football, wrestling, classical music, and the rock band the Eagles.

Leaves behind parents Ron and Carol, sister Laurie, widow Melissa, a Marine sergeant also killed in Iraq.

Glen Martinez, American hero.

Thanks to our guests and especially to you. Good night from the New York control room, there they are, Brett and Rosie.

And tonight, good night from Georgia and Alabama friends of the show, Derrick, happy birthday, Kelly and Donna.

Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/07/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

Geraldo November 8, 2008 with Jose Baez.

Kimberly Guilfoyle, Julia Morrow and Mark Geragos.

Kimberley: Reports are that you've been warned 2 times about your relationship with Casey. Are you losing objectivity?

Baez: That's a ridiculous question. Any defense attorney is also a counselor with his client. Nothing is going on; it's just something for people to talk about. It's sexy and juicy.

Kimberley:

She's a con artist, liar, manipulator. It's not so far fetched to think there was a relationship; that she lured you in.

Baez: I would never cross the line with a client; it's absurd.

Julia Morrow: Think you can win? What is your strongest defense?

Baez: We have a long difficult road but we're gearing up for the challenge. We'll take it one step at a time. Attacking one piece at a time; fortunately there's not much forensic evidence out there.

Geragos: Biggest problem is the demonizing of Casey. A change of venue will help but where are you going to try this case? Trying to find an impartial jury in this case anywhere in a 500 mile radius is damn near impossible.

Geraldo: Grandfather is on record saying he smelled a dead body. That's a big problem.

Baez: Those tapes are hearsay; none of it will come into court. That will remain a challenge for the prosecutor to get that information in from George Anthony.

Kimberley: My advice is you plead her to manslaughter.

Baez: Or find Caylee.

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Joran Van Der Sloot Taped in Thai Sex Trade Deal

Aired November 10, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

<SNIP>
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: For a third straight day search crews were scouring parts of Orange County, Florida. They`re looking for possible remains of 3-year-old Caylee Anthony.

TIM MILLER, HEAD OF EQUUSEARCH, RESUMING SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: I know that Caylee`s remains are out there somewhere.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A dejected Tim Miller says his Texas EquuSearch has spent nearly $100,000 on the search for Caylee.

MILLER: It breaks our hearts to leave again without finding Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Miller says he doubts Caylee`s remains will ever be found unless Casey Anthony comes out with more information.

DEP. APPLING WELLS, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Is your daughter in a better place?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: No, she`s not.

WELLS: Are you worried about her?

ANTHONY: I`m absolutely petrified.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Bounty hunter Leonard Padilla returned to Florida for the search. Now he is attacking the mother he once defended for causing pain for so many people across the country.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPING TO SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: If you really want to delve into the mind of Casey you have to dig real deep into some shrink`s ugly book because she is an ugly minded little person.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150.

Mark, that was quite a search. It`s been going on since Saturday. How many people were searching?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, initially they had hoped 5,000 people would come out and search. They got about 1500 on Saturday. That dwindled to about.

GRACE: I was told over 2,000 volunteers, bounty hunters and searchers showed up from all across the country.

WILLIAMS: That was over a two-day period of time, Nancy. That.

GRACE: That`s a lot of people, Mark Williams, 2,000 people?

WILLIAMS: It is. It is a lot of people. They had 132 places to look at. They broke it down into a one-mile square grid and they went out there. They found a lot of animal bones but no remains of Casey.

Now, Leonard Padilla has taken up the search for little Caylee Anthony. EquuSearch and Tim Miller is going to the Carolinas because he has other business up there.

GRACE: I understand, Mark Williams, that EquuSearch searchers staying, although Tim Miller is going to the Carolinas. EquuSearch searchers are staying along as well as Padilla and his bunch.

WILLIAMS: Yes. Yes. OK. And Mandy Albritton from EquuSearch is probably in town. I have not talked to her yet. But I have talked to Leonard Padilla and today he sent two divers into the Econ River on the strength of a picture that was taken back in August during a search.

It was a picture of a makeshift cross on a tree. In that picture, Nancy, it showed that there were some arts and crafts that made up that cross, the same type of arts and crafts that were found in Casey Anthony`s room, discovered there by one of Mr. Padilla`s associates.

So that`s why he put them into the Econ River today. It was very murky and they did not come up with anything.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter helping to search for Caylee Anthony, first posted that $500,000 bond to set the tot mom free, later came off that bond, tell me about the search this weekend, Leonard.

PADILLA: Well, as Mark stated, that`s what triggered it, when we found the picture Thursday and we followed it up by finding the small bead at the base of that tree where the cross is no longer hanging.

And then we got to thinking past the point of she parked there on the 25th in the morning, turned her phone off. It was off for four hours. And we put the divers in the water. But it`s a foot and a half to two foot of sludge. It`s like a garbage dump out there with all the stuff in the -- in the Econ River and it`s just -- they worked at it for four or five hours but it`s just impossible to find anything in there.

GRACE: To renowned medical examiner and author, Dr. Joshua Perper, joining us tonight. Doctor, thank you for being with us.

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": Sure.

GRACE: Doctor, if a body had been in that river all these months, what would you expect to find?

PERPER: Well, there might be some soft tissue but it would be very advanced in decomposition which would make it virtually impossible to determine the nature of soft tissue injuries.

If there are bone fractures, that`s different but in my opinion the body probably is not floating now because this kind of very bad smell in the car indicated there was a decomposed body there probably more than two days and she had -- whoever was in the car -- sufficient time to transport it in another state.

GRACE: To Dr. Perper, again, does water, such as in this river, accelerate or slow decomposition of the human body?

PERPER: Well, the decomposition rate is faster on the ground and it`s slower in water and it`s slowest in the ground. So it`s a middle stage of (INAUDIBLE) of decomposition. But, again, there`s already quite a lot of time, so the decomposition even in water would be quite advanced and the body is never found.

GRACE: And Dr. Perper, , over 2,000 searchers are searching for little Caylee this weekend. If she were above the ground, or buried in a shallow grave, what would you expect to find in those circumstances?

PERPER: Well, it depends how deep she is buried. Probably she`s not buried very deep. Again, there would be the decomposition, which would make the examination and evaluation of the wounds very difficult but it would be better than finding her on the surface of the ground or in the water.

GRACE: Natisha Lance is joining us in Orlando. She was at the search all weekend.

Tell me about the search, Natisha.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, they were able to clear 23 of these 132 areas that Mark Williams was talking about and they were searching that 200-square-mile once again, Nancy. They were searching Moss Park, J. Blanchard Park, wooded areas near the Anthony home as well as wooded areas near the Orlando airport.

Now, today they covered another, smaller area, which was the Econ trail, which is near Highway 417. And once again, like Mark Williams was saying, members of EquuSearch will be going on to North Carolina but they are still planning to come back and continue the search for Caylee.

GRACE: To Kathi Belich with WFTV -- Kathi, this is a very long and exhaustive search. What do you believe is the next step?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: Well, investigators did not join this dive today. They were supporting EquuSearch in its search. But I`m hearing that -- there`s a good chance that her body won`t be found after all of this time.

And as Tim Miller said, he`s hoping for more information from Casey before they know where to go next. If EquuSearch comes back with volunteers they may try to cover the rest of these areas they didn`t get to. But it`s been a long time.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter searching for Caylee, what were the conditions of the search? What was it like out there searching this weekend?

PADILLA: Well, the conditions are tough. The volunteers really have to struggle through the brush. It`s just -- it`s just thick. It`s dry, the ground is dry. But I`m telling you, the tickets are very, very thick and the -- the places they chose are just, you know -- it`s just very difficult.

Now the dive that we did today is completely different, because it was just in the water there, 12 foot offshore, which made it a lot easier but the water was very cold and murky.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: The search taking up the entire weekend with over 2,000 searchers for little Caylee. The search goes on.

To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter helping to search for her, you`ve taken a lot of heat for searching for Caylee which I do not understand. You`re doing more than a lot of people are doing.

PADILLA: That`s just me. You know I told people I draw a lot of heat no matter what I do.

GRACE: But why? Heat for what? What did you allegedly do wrong?

PADILLA: Well, according to Cindy her granddaughter`s alive and I`m letting people think that she`s dead by conducting a search for a body rather than a live person.

GRACE: But what about that indictment for murder one? Doesn`t that sway people to believe the little girl has passed away?

PADILLA: She says -- she says the FBI and Orange County don`t know what they`re talking about that her granddaughter is alive. And the kid from -- well, the guy from kid finders or whatever it is has got them convinced to keep this thing going.

GRACE: OK. To Alex Sanchez, Lauren Lake and Susan Moss, very quickly.

Lauren Lake, if they do not find Caylee`s remains ever, what will that mean for the case?

LAKE: Well, that means it helps the defense. It helps the defense if Casey actually did it because it can`t tie together a lot of the circumstantial evidence. But if the body would prove otherwise, that someone else did it, then it hurts the defense.

GRACE: Alex?

SANCHEZ: Yes, I mean, the failure of that massive group to locate that child is a victory for the defense. And it keeps hope alive that that child is possibly out there somewhere and the jury is going to made aware of that.

GRACE: Susan Moss?

MOSS: It doesn`t affect the case, forward march.

GRACE: I want to thank our attorneys, Susan Moss, Lauren Lake, Alex Sanchez, and all our other guests.

But let`s stop now and remember Marine Lance Corporal James Kimple, 21, killed, Carroll, Ohio, killed Iraq on a second tour. Awarded the Purple Heart. Loved books and serving his family and country. Trained in a military career.

Leaves behind mom and stepdad, Kate and John, two brothers, widow Amber, three children.

James Kimple, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. See you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern and until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/10/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Caylee Search Divers Find Bag With Toys, Bones

Aired November 13, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 21 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell. In the last hours, police, FBI swarm a local park after a dive team announces the discovery of tiny bones and a bag of toys discarded in a nearby river, the dive team spending hours combing murky alligator- infested waters. Grandparents George and Cindy Anthony immediately insist it was all planted there at the bottom of the Econ River. When tot mom sees the coverage on TV from behind bars, she registers no emotion whatsoever, calmly going back to her private cell. What does that mean?

Mom Casey still refusing to cooperate with police, but taking the time to order off a menu of high-end snacks like crab meat, shrimp cocktail, make-up, shoes, lingerie, hair and skin products, all from her private jail cell, tot mom lounging, sleeping, reading, snacking, doing nothing to help find Caylee. And another bombshell. Has there been another alleged sighting of Caylee? Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: Caylee went to Blanchard Park (INAUDIBLE) walking around the lake. She liked to just (INAUDIBLE)

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There may be a break in the disappearance of Caylee Anthony. It`s a swampy river basin area where police have found what appeared to be possibly the remains of little Caylee Anthony. They found a plastic bag with toys and small bones that`s been weighed down by bricks. Inside the bag, there were bones the size of fingers. And they also found a shamrock, and the shamrock is significant because it was Casey Anthony`s favorite symbol.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s just a matter of a handful of miles, and we do know from Casey Anthony`s cell phone records, the cell phone pings, that during the time of Caylee`s disappearance that the investigators are focusing on, she was here in this park.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: The last time I know that she was there was the end of May.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, expert dive teams combing the murky waters of a local river.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I got off of work, left Universal, driving back to pick up Caylee like a normal day. And I show up to the apartment, knock on the door. Nobody answers. So I call Zenaida`s cell phone and it`s out of service. I sit down on the steps and wait for a little bit to see if maybe it was just a fluke, if something happened. So I went over to Jay Blanchard Park and checked a couple other places where maybe possibly they would`ve gone.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They discovered a stuffed (ph) shamrock first under a tarp of some sort that turned out to be part of a garbage bag and some bricks weighing down that garbage back, other baby toys, and indeed bones, small bones that looked to be finger or toe bones.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I`ve taken her three times myself this year. The last time that I noticed she went with someone other than myself was the end of May.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey had a tattoo of a shamrock. There was a shamrock sticker on her car, and we do know that Caylee had a shamrock-type toy. That is making people very concerned in this area, and of course, the fragments of the bones and garbage bag. We do know parts of a garbage bag were also found in Casey`s trunk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: She liked to go on a walk, a big trail at Jay Blanchard Park.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Nikki Pierce with WDBO. Nikki, you were there all day at the dive. Tell me what happened.

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: I was there all day. At 2:00 PM today in Blanchard Park, a possible break in the case. Divers that were organized by Leonard Padilla, they found what looked to be small bones, finger bones and toe bones. And that`s what they said they were, and to my layperson eyes, they certainly looked like bones to me.

They also found pieces of a trash bag that had been weighted down with bricks and cement, along with baby toys, one of them a shamrock, one of them some sort of a stuffed figure.

What followed after that was a media frenzy, hundreds of people showing up at that area, including the FBI and the Orange County sheriff`s office, who reviewed the evidence extensively. Now the Orange County`s sheriff`s office just a couple of hours ago came out and said nothing of evidentiary value was found, and that those weren`t even bones.

But the divers -- I got to say, this is not their first rodeo. They`ve been around, and they said they were bones, and that`s why they called out the police officers. Now, Leonard Padilla has been asked to take a polygraph test, to top it all off, by Orange County`s sheriff`s office because they were upset that the media was there first instead of the sheriff`s office.

GRACE: I want to go straight to Todd Bosinski. Everyone, we are taking your calls live. Divers in the murky waters of the local Econ River pull up what look to be -- inside a plastic bag, what look to be tiny bones and toys.

Straight out to Todd Bosinski, the owner of Black Water Divers. He`s conducting the search for Caylee. You know, Todd, as a fellow diver, it is very difficult in -- number one, rivers to start with, because it`s incredibly murky. There`s a lot of debris at the bottom, silt at the bottom that comes up off the bottom of the river. Tell me the circumstances of your search. What was it like in the Econ today?

TODD BOSINSKI, BLACK WATER DIVERS: Well, just to give you a quick idea, if you go into a cave, to the deepest part of the cave and shut off all your lights...

GRACE: Oh!

BOSINSKI: ... that`s pretty much what we were dealing with. Down at the bottom...

GRACE: Man, I hate cave diving. Don`t tell me that, you can`t see a thing.

BOSINSKI: You can`t see a thing. Down at the bottom of the river, the conditions were -- you have that real soft silt sediment. It was about four feet in depth. And we`re just basically taking our arms and pushing them down as best as we could. We had a gentleman drop off a couple of experimental things, some screens and some drag nets, and that assisted us in covering a larger area faster.

And that`s where we soon uncovered what appeared to be bones. I`m not a forensic scientist, so I can`t tell you for sure. Just from the past, they look like bones.

GRACE: Todd Bosinski is joining us. He is the owner of Black Water Divers. He is conducting the search, leading the search under water for little Caylee. Todd, you stated that you are feeling your way along the river bottom. You can`t see anything. You have to go by sense of touch?

BOSINSKI: Yes, ma`am. Yes. It`s all by touch. And if -- see, we can`t really tell if it`s a bone or if it`s a piece of wood, if it`s a piece of metal.

GRACE: Until you bring it up.

BOSINSKI: Until we bring it up. And that`s the whole purpose of having these drag nets. If you give me one second, I`ll grab it.

GRACE: OK. And I want to find out what`s the current. Is there any current in the Econ River?

BOSINSKI: It`s very slight. The current is very slight. There is some, but nothing that`s really affecting the search.

GRACE: OK. Tell me about your drag net you`ve got with you.

BOSINSKI: OK. This is a drag net from a local person that produces these right around the corner, and he dropped these off to us this morning to assist. And I`ll tell you, they came in really, really handy. And basically...

GRACE: How does it work?

BOSINSKI: Basically, what you do is you take it, you got the one side that`s a floater, and the other side is weighted down. And you take it and you sift it through the sand and you close it up like a sandwich or a taco and bring it up to the surface.

GRACE: So you`re going along the entire bottom of the riverbed. Everyone, all day today, the search under water for remains of little Caylee has been going down at a local river, the Econ River, led by bounty hunter Leonard Padilla. As you recall, Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, there in Orlando, in fact, at Blanchard Park, a point of interest. Leonard Padilla, why did you isolate this particular part of the river?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, it`s across from the playground where Lisa (ph) with Texas Equusearch had taken a picture on a tree of a cross. And on that cross were beads, and those beads were identified by Tracy (ph), who stayed with Casey for the 10 days we had her out on bail. And she had -- the night before, she had drawn (ph) them. And then we came back out here on Sunday and we found not one but two beads on two consecutive days, and they matched the beads that she said.

So then we went and spent two days reading reports and things of that nature and came up with the mention of the park eight times, eight distinctive times. You heard the one time there. And the most significant one is where she changed her story from losing her child at the apartments to having come out here and having Zenaida take her away here at the park. And what we thought that she was setting up an alibi as to why she lost the child at the park, and therefore, Zenaida came away with the child. But that was to where they found the child dead here, she could always say, Well, that`s where Zenaida took her away from me.

GRACE: Yes, and I told you that...

PADILLA: So this is where we`re concentrating...

GRACE: Yes, and she can say I`ve been telling you that all along. I tried to tell you about Jay Blanchard Park.

PADILLA: Correct.

GRACE: Got it. I understand your thinking. To Bethany Marshall. Padilla is correct, she did keep mentioning over and over under a lot of different circumstances this Jay Blanchard Park.

Everybody, we`re showing you footage of it right now. Padilla joined earlier with Tim Miller and Texas Equusearch in the search for little Caylee.

Why would she continue mentioning Jay Blanchard Park? When people are pathological liars and they keep weaving the same fact in over and over, it does raise a red flag, yes?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, sometimes what they mention is what`s most deliciously satisfying to them. So if she killed her child and drowned her in the river there, the park, the park, the park, that`s where this experience happened which might have been very gratifying her, much like going to rent a movie about kidnap and murder the same day her child goes missing.

Why? It`s a reliving and a glorification of the act. So I would be sifting through her language, just like these heroes, these divers, sift through the river, looking for those words, just like Padilla is looking for. Hey, it`s like Scott Peterson went he went and looked over the bay or O.J. Simpson writing, "If I did It." There`s a revisiting of the moment in the murders, both their language and in their acts and in their reminiscing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you really want to delve into the mind of Casey, you`d have to dig real deep into some shrink`s ugly book because she is an ugly-minded little person.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Divers searching for Caylee Anthony found a bag with toys. It was in a lake today.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The bag was taken away as possible evidence. Divers were searching the Little Econ River near Blanchard Park in Orlando. It`s an area of interest because cell phone pings show that Caylee`s mother, Casey Anthony, was in the area during the time that Caylee disappeared.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whereabouts in the park did she like the best?

CASEY ANTHONY: The playground. She liked to just (INAUDIBLE) around (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When was the last time she was there?

CASEY ANTHONY: I took her in April a couple times.

Every day, I`ve been beating myself up about this, every single day...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

CASEY ANTHONY: ... not knowing where to go, what to do, running in circles literally. It`s all I can do, at this point.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s very, very difficult to understand why Casey Anthony will not come clean and not help the investigation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: When I asked her why won`t you, you know, allow us to see Caylee, and she said, Well, maybe I`m a spiteful (DELETED).

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Today divers searching the murky waters of the Econ River in the search for little Caylee.

Back to Todd Bosinski, the owner of Black Water Divers, conducting the underwater search. Are there actually alligators in that river?

BOSINSKI: Oh, yes, within yards of us. I`m talking 10 to 15, 25 feet from us, anywhere from the range of little babies up to -- we just saw a 12-footer this morning, and throughout the afternoon.

GRACE: You know those things can run, right? They can run.

BOSINSKI: Yes. .

GRACE: I have dived with sharks but never alligators. That`s a whole different thing. Explain to me how you go about diving with alligators in the vicinity.

BOSINSKI: Gators are generally will not attack under water. We had a guy who...

GRACE: Generally? Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa~! Operative word, generally. You mean there are exceptions?

BOSINSKI: I`m sure there are exceptions. We have -- all the gators that I have come in contact with under water, which is a daily basis or a weekly basis, just depending on what the weather is, they`ll come up and they`ll nub you in the legs, they`ll hit you in the back, slap you with their tail a little bit. But as far as I know, and from my research on gators, the gators will not actually physically attack you under water.

GRACE: Is it because they cannot physically attack under water?

BOSINSKI: I don`t think it`s because they can`t physically. I think it`s something to do with when they open their mouth, there`s a possibility of that little flap in the back of their mouth, when they`re forced to go grab their prey, the water rushes in.

GRACE: OK. Because there has to be a physical impossibility for them to attack under water if they`re right there nudging your leg and they don`t bite.

BOSINSKI: It`s probably due to the fact that...

GRACE: Got it.

BOSINSKI: ... they know if they open the water -- or open their mouth under water, they could drown.

GRACE: What was your first reaction when -- was it you or one of your divers that discovered this?

BOSINSKI: Discovered the -- discovered what?

GRACE: The bone-like pieces you found.

BOSINSKI: I was actually the initial diver who found the garbage bag, which was underneath the piece of concrete that had that little what we assumed to be a clover, a four-leafed clover. Come to find out once the FBI got here and forensics teams got here, they broke it apart and it came to be a small Gumby, Gumby magnet.

GRACE: But it was a child`s toy, but you`re saying it was in a garbage bag weighted down with a cement block?

BOSINSKI: Yes, ma`am. The garbage bag was ripped -- when I found it down underneath the silt, from what I could tell and by what I could feel, the garbage bag was partially closed. And as I pulled it up, I didn`t realize there was concrete in it. And as I got it up to the surface, I realized that there was actually something weighing in it, and I tried to do the best I could to preserve it. But in these type of conditions it`s extremely -- extremely hard to be able to control everything...

GRACE: Well, you can`t see.

BOSINSKI: ... especially when you`re only using one of your senses.

GRACE: You can`t see what you`re doing.

BOSINSKI: Exactly.

GRACE: With me Todd Bosinski, owner of Black Water Divers.

We are taking your calls. Out to Sarah in Canada. Hi, Sarah.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have a two-part question. I wanted to know if the fact that the bones were with the toys -- could that indicate significance of the whodunnit? I mean, it would be random for just a maniac to do something like that, bury the child with toys.

GRACE: True.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Also, can the grandparents can be called to identify whether or not they recognize these days as little Caylee`s?

GRACE: Out to Kathi Belich with WFTV. Tell me about the toy.

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: What I saw were very small toys in a plastic bag. And I don`t think investigators believe they have any connection whatsoever. They left them with the divers and they did not, you know, take them along with -- well, they did take the -- they were actually rocks. What they thought were bones were actually two rocks. One was smaller than the other. I saw the larger one. It was sort of diamond- shaped. They did take those as found properties, the sheriff`s office called it. But again, they were saying it had nothing to do with (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: No connection with Caylee. I want to go to Tim Miller, the president of Texas Equusearch. Had you already scanned with sidescan sonar this area?

TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Nancy, I can only shake my head. This is so crazy. You know...

GRACE: So was that a yes or a no? Did you already sidescan it?

MILLER: I scanned that thing two times. And this is just exactly the way Leonard told me he was going write the script on Sunday. And if his experts can`t determine stones from bones, you need to get different divers. I just can`t even believe what`s going on.

GRACE: Well, these are volunteers, Tim Miller. I mean, they are not experts, archaeological or anthropological experts.

MILLER: Well, Nancy -- Nancy...

GRACE: They`re people out there volunteering. Of course they don`t know the difference.

MILLER: Nancy, Nancy, Nancy, stop right now. You said in the beginning the expert divers. I`m going to tell you, if you`re an expert diver, you can determine stones from bones.

GRACE: Well, I consider myself to be an expert diver because I`ve dived over a hundred times, but I may not know the difference of something I pull up off the bottom of the river.

MILLER: I don`t think you would call the media first before you call law enforcement to put on a damn circus show. If you thought it was truly that, why wouldn`t -- I know you, Nancy Grace. You would call the police first if you think you saw something.

GRACE: So does this mean you did search the river with sidescan sonar?

MILLER: Nancy, I knew on Saturday that Leonard Padilla was going do this dive. I put somebody in that water with sonar for three-and-a-half hours Sunday morning. They got done scanning that, said they didn`t find anything. I personally got in that water myself with the sonar. I eliminated that. When I pulled that boat on the water, Leonard Padilla was standing on the bank and said, Tim, I need your divers. I said, Leonard, we`re not diving. I said, I can tell you where tires are, where a wheelbarrow frame is, where different things are at in there. I said, Leonard, please...

GRACE: Understood.

MILLER: ... don`t do this.

GRACE: So you did do sidescan sonar.

MILLER: Yes.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks. Weigh in, Mike.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, Nancy, you know, if Tim said he went and did sidescan sonar and he was able to pick up these anomalies, you know, then that would have been good enough for me, but you know, Leonard felt the need to get these divers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: You don`t have my permission. You know, I`m on TV every night (INAUDIBLE)

I have not a problem with him being out here. I have a problem with him having a memorial service for Caylee tomorrow. that`s my problem. You`d have a problem with it, too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I`ve got a tip right now in Coral Springs, Florida, that Caylee is alive. What`s going on at the park? You know, I`m told that the authorities are coming down. We`re going let them do their job, and whenever they come to us and tell us they have something concrete, then we`ll take that. But right now, we`re focusing on this tip that just came in just moments ago.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Drew, what was Casey Anthony`s reaction behind bars? I understand she was actually watching the coverage of the dive search and the apparent discovery of bones.

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Right. And this was in the initial stages, when it didn`t come out yet that this was all a hoax and that it wasn`t actually bones that were found. The jail...

GRACE: I don`t know that I would call it a hoax, Drew Petrimoulx. I think that I would call it the discovery of something unrelated to the case, as it turns out.

PETRIMOULX: OK. We can put it that way. But she saw the early stages of the investigation today, and she saw that -- you know, that they -- it wasn`t determined yet that this was false, and she basically just turned around, went back into her cell with no reaction.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I know she`s alive and I know she`s out there. She`s coming home. She`s leading you to a place but she`s not telling me to the right -- exact location to which apartment it is because she`s afraid if someone walks in that something may happen to Caylee.

My daughter may have some mistruths out there or half-truths, but she is not a murderer.

There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots that stunk so bad.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Cindy, but these dogs are trained to find dead bodies, Cindy.

ANTHONY: The same dogs that cleared our hour cleared them. There`s no evidence that Casey has ever done any harm to her child. She`s lived with me for three years. I`ve never seen anything.

She is not dead. We still believe firmly that Caylee is alive. I`ve got a tip right now in Coral Springs, Florida that Caylee is alive. Until I hear it from the authorities, it`s just -- it is what it is, it`s a bag of whatever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: George and Cindy Anthony joining us tomorrow night right here. There you hear Casey Anthony`s biggest defender, her mother, today before these items found by Padilla`s team at the bottom of the Econ River were determined to be unrelated to Caylee`s disappearance.

Their first reaction was it was planted.

Speaking of reactions, according to Drew Petrimoulx with WBDO, Casey Anthony sees the coverage of possible bones of her daughter found at the bottom of the river, has no reaction, turns around and goes back to her cell.

Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor, Atlanta, Peter Odom, defense attorney, Atlanta, Richard Herman, defense attorney, New York.

Richard Herman, if I were looking for John David or Lucy, and I see that on the TV I would be screaming to turn up the volume to get every last detail. Why did she go back to her private cell?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Because she knows that`s not where her daughter is, Nancy. It`s the -- I.

GRACE: So she does know where her daughter`s buried?

HERMAN: No, she knows she`s not there in that lake there. Listen.

GRACE: Why -- how would she know that if she doesn`t know where she is?

HERMAN: She gave the daughter away to someone, Nancy.

GRACE: Then how does she know that someone didn`t kill Caylee?

HERMAN: Because this is a circus by Padilla. I respect Tim Miller.

GRACE: There you go.

HERMAN: He calls this the Padilla circus and old bozo.

Here`s a breaking news, they want him to take an FBI lie detector. He better lawyer up right now because federal obstruction brings five years, Lenny. Five years.

GRACE: Richard, once again, you`ve done an artful job of avoiding the question.

Eleanor, please weigh in.

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Well, I agree. I can`t believe a defense attorney would say that his potential client didn`t shed a tear because she knew the body wasn`t there, because you know what, Nancy? She probably does know where the body is.

GRACE: And if she had been -- Caylee had been kidnapped by the nanny, like she said right there at that park, Jay Blanchard Park, where they are looking, Padilla`s looking, how do we know that that nanny didn`t kill the little girl? We don`t know that.

Why, Peter Odom? How do you spin that in front of a your that she just turn around and marched back to her cell, not interested at all in the possible discovery of her daughter`s bones?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`ve got to tell you, Nancy. I`m with Richard on this one. This search was a circus perpetrated by Leonard Padilla.

GRACE: No. No. If you can just answer the question.

ODOM: The answer is there`s no other way to characterize it but that she has guilty knowledge, Nancy. She knows exactly where that body is.

GRACE: At least, finally, a straight answer. Peter, I respect that. Of course, you could never say that in front of a jury in your line of business but at least you`ve said the truth tonight.

ODOM: But I`ve said on this show.

GRACE: Padilla, you want to answer all these accusations?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, ON LOCATION FROM DIVE TEAM SITE: I don`t think they even merit an answer. We`re out here with these divers that are Black Water divers. Our own diver was not experienced enough. We were going pull out when this gentleman called me Wednesday.

We decided to go ahead and go to work with them because they are experienced Black Water divers. Our guy is not. As far as attorneys that sit there and criticize, you know, our motives and our actions.

GRACE: I don`t see them out searching.

PADILLA: No, I don`t think so and they`re not going to, but the -- situation when you`re talking about these divers that are out here in that murkiness, and the alligators, you see the alligators out there.

You know, I won`t even get within 25 feet of the water line and neither will Rob Dick, and these guys are out right there and you see the alligator just laying there 25 feet from Todd and I`m -- like starting to feel like, no, this is a bad idea. Let`s get him out of there and they`re saying, no, don`t worry about it, Todd knows what he`s doing.

And then you have somebody saying that this is a circus. Well, you know, I just -- I don`t think they have an understanding. I`d buy their airplane ticket down here so that they can be here with us tomorrow and the next day. And they could see exactly what we`re doing.

GRACE: Yes, let them get down at the bottom of the Econ River and look around for a while.

PADILLA: Yes.

GRACE: Let them do what Tim Miller does and his search crews every day all over the country. People that are throwing stones at the two of you, you know what, they`re not doing anything except armchair quarterbacking. So you take whatever they say with a box of salt, to both you and Tim Miller.

Out to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist, also a consultant on the Anthony defense team. How long does it take, Kobe, to determine -- to test and determine whether bone is animal or human?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, Nancy, a physical anthropologist, just by visual inspection, would probably be able to identify human versus animal.

If they cannot, they`ve got to do mitochondrial DNA and clearly determine there if it`s human or not. That could be a matter of a couple of days, but I think this was very rapid, visual inspection. No problem.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Liz in Florida. Hi, Liz.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. My question is have any reputable psychics been brought into this case to help find Caylee or her body?

GRACE: What about it, Nikki Pierce with WDBO?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Well, there was one psychic that I believe actually appeared on your show. She also has some cadaver dogs with her along with that psychic.

GRACE: St. James.

PIERCE: Yes, Gail St. James and along with that psychic there have been thousands of tips called in. I do know that the Orange County Sheriff`s Office does investigate tips that they call credible but I don`t know exactly what the criteria would be.

GRACE: And St. James, Nikki, apparently, brought with her a whole team of psychics that felt they had had visions or vibrations or feelings, dreams, whatever they have, and we`re going on those with cadaver dogs.

Again, you know, you may want to throw a stone at them because you don`t believe in them, at least they`re out there with dogs searching.

Back to the lines. Tracy in Wisconsin, hi, Tracy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. First of all, thanks for keeping the story on the front line and hopefully.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: . we`ll get some justice for Caylee.

GRACE: I pray.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m wondering, when Equusearch pulled out, where did they go and when are they going to be coming back, and then why do they want Padilla to take a lie detector test?

GRACE: Very quickly, you know, Texas Equusearch, I believe, went down to look for Natalee, I believe it was eight separate times. They pulled out -- I`m going to go to Tim Miller on this -- because of the torrential flooding rains in Florida to start with and they`d come back when they thought they could do some good.

Tim Miller, where did you guys go?

TIM MILLER, HEAD OF EQUUSEARCH, RESUMING SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: In this search we did exactly what the sheriff`s department wanted us to do. We completed the areas that would be flooded.

GRACE: Extensive areas.

MILLER: Extensive areas. Many, many distractions. The search continues for Caylee every weekend to a smaller scale. We`re not going anywhere. When we`re going to go back there on a bigger scale, we`ll certainly be there with the best resources that we`ve got and.

GRACE: What is your Web site? What is your Web site, Tim Miller?

MILLER: TXEQ.org.

GRACE: T-X-E-Q-U?

MILLER: No. T-X-E-Q-O-R-G.

GRACE: Got it.

With me the president of Texas Equusearch, Tim Miller. They covered about 25 square miles with over 2,000 volunteers this past weekend.

Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter out of Sacramento who originally put up Casey Anthony`s first $500,000 bail before he came off the bond, now conducting under water dive searches for the little girl.

Todd Bosinski is with us, the owner of Black Water Divers. At the end of day, how do you feel the search went?

TODD BOSINSKI, OWNER, BLACK WATER DIVERS, CONDUCTING SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: I think it went fantastic. Honestly, we`re not doing anything but help -- trying to help.

You know, I hear the president of Equusearch over here stating that he was out here with sonar and all this other stuff. One of the questions I have for him, has he been trained with sonar? Does he know what type of sonar equipment he was using? Was it recorded, and if it was.

GRACE: Well, I can answer that for you. I can answer that for you very quickly. Yes, he`s been trained. He`s done five-scan sonar with success all over the country.

Very quickly to Bethany Marshall. Bethany, I want to go to you about her reaction behind bars. I am intrigued, and I think this is going to come up in trial. No reaction when she saw the possibility Caylee`s bone has been discovered.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, you know, when someone commits what we call (INAUDIBLE) homicide, what that means is there is a buildup of such hatred, envy, rage, bitterness towards another human being. They don`t even want that human being on the face of the planet.

What happens when that person`s gone? There`s tremendous relief and actually it`s been documented that this relief phase can last as much as six months to two years and it can either be a flattening of affects or partying, you know, literally, dancing on the other person`s grave.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: We`ve been following reports today that a bag of toys and possibly bones was found during a search for missing Florida toddler Caylee Anthony.

This search in particular organized by bounty hunter Leonard Padilla.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Padilla has been requested by the Orange County`s sheriff`s office to participate in a polygraph and that will be conducted by the board -- by the FBI.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: We asked California bounty hunter Leonard Padilla whether he saw the items that were supposedly bones and he, obviously, was trying to distance himself from it.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Were they really, in fact, bones here or was it.

PADILLA: I don`t know. I haven`t seen any yet, it`s because they`re over there and I`m over here. And.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Who called law enforcement?

PADILLA: The divers thought it was important enough to call.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. First, back out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. What can you tell me about an alleged sighting of Caylee? I want to hear about that.

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: That came from Cindy Anthony today when she was being questioned about this bag that was found. The whole time she maintained that Caylee is as still alive saying she even knows of a sighting that happened down in South Florida, Coral Springs area, and she said she was spotted with a middle-aged man at a McDonald`s down there.

GRACE: And what happened? Was it investigated?

PETRIMOULX: I`m not sure. She`s basically saying that -- I think if it was investigated it would have to have been her own private investigators. I don`t if it was something that the sheriff`s office did, though.

GRACE: You`re seeing a photo taken of an alleged sighting of Caylee. Take a look. This turned out not to be Caylee. There she is. Let`s remove the chyrons at the bottom of the screen so we can see the full photo of the sighting. There you go. That`s the sighting. One of the sightings. There have been several, Nashville, Tennessee, Georgia, Orlando, Daytona Florida, two sightings there, Coral Springs, the most recent.

To Nikki Pierce, do we know whether this sighting of little Caylee with a man at McDonald`s was investigated by police?

PIERCE: It was investigated by police and they found it to not be a credible tip. They found that it was not indeed Caylee.

GRACE: Then there was the sighting, Kathi Belich, on the AirTran flight from Florida to Atlanta to Puerto Rico.

Kathi Belich joining us from WFTV. Was that sighting investigated?

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: That sighting was investigated. I believe there were two children on that flight, one was much younger than Caylee and another older than Caylee. It was thoroughly investigated. They got the flight manifest from the flights and it turned out not to be her.

GRACE: So all of these alleged sightings, Kathi Belich, have been investigated, correct?

BELICH: As far as we know, everyone has been investigated and everyone has been ruled out at that point.

GRACE: Is that true, Nikki Pierce with WDBO?

PIERCE: That`s true. As far as we know, they`ve all been investigated and all been ruled out.

GRACE: Do we know any circumstances around these alleged sightings at McDonald`s in Coral Springs?

PIERCE: Besides the fact that it has also been ruled out and.

GRACE: Yes.

PIERCE: . she appeared in a McDonald`s, no, not really.

GRACE: I guess that`s all we need to know is they investigated it and it`s been ruled out.

Everybody, taking your calls, to Mary in Florida. Hi, Mary.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. You are truly a blessing for everybody.

GRACE: Thank you for saying that. You need to tell that to the defense bar. I don`t think they believe you.

What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do. I have a question and a quick comment. My question is to Tim Miller, why he will not go ahead and send divers down. And my comment is I`ve been following this case the whole time and we should be thankful for everybody who has done everything and stop turning noses at the people who are out there every day.

This isn`t a competition, you know? This is truly a blessing.

GRACE: To Tim Miller, I understand you didn`t send divers down because you had already side scan sonared it several times.

MILLER: Several times, Nancy.

GRACE: Yes.

MILLER: And I`m good at that.

GRACE: And that`s no easy thing.

MILLER: It`s no easy thing. And you know what, if you -- if that water is so murky you`re not going to see an alligator 20 feet away so I question divers, but, you know, the reason I`m not sending divers down is that I told Leonard on Sunday, Leonard, don`t do this.

Leonard told me personally and I`m going to sit here and tell you what he told me. When I got doing the sonar work, pulled the boat up to shore, Leonard said, Tim, I need your divers, I need your divers.

GRACE: You told me that.

MILLER: I said, Leonard, there`s nothing there. Leonard told me, Tim, you don`t realize the opportunity we`re missing. He gave me the story about why he thought that. He said the body is right there. He said, Tim, think about it, just think about it, we`ll have that cameras be -- we`ll have your divers in there, TV cameras all around.

Tim Miller`s holding Caylee`s skull. Think how much money we can make, Tim. Exactly what happened today is what Leonard told us on Sunday and we are doing the statement.

GRACE: Leonard Padilla, do you want to respond to that?

MILLER: The script went exactly as he said.

GRACE: Leonard, do you want to respond to that?

MILLER: It`s not a circus. I asked Leonard.

PADILLA: I`d like to respond.

MILLER: . to be at the lake of Texas.

GRACE: I`d like too hear Leonard respond to that. Go ahead, Leonard.

PADILLA: I begged Tim to send his divers down because we only had one and I asked him on Sunday, I even went back by his headquarters and asked him, please, Tim, we can`t pass up this opportunity if you`ve got the divers, and he told me -- the last thing he told me Sunday was OK, I`ll get them out there tomorrow morning.

Well, when tomorrow morning came, we had our two divers and then we decided to go ahead and send in the two divers, but I did, I begged him. I did everything I could short of.

GRACE: OK.

PADILLA: . paying him.

GRACE: Understood.

PADILLA: . to send the divers down.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Diane in Florida. Hi, Diane. I think I`ve got Diane in Florida. Hi, dear, what`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, I`ve watched the coverage all afternoon, the live coverage from here, from outside of Orlando, and the lead detective, one of the lead detectives arrived at the scene and one of the FBI agents arrived.

They were there less than 15 minutes, the lead detective shook his head and said, this is, you know, it doesn`t relate to the case. I don`t even understand how they can do that.

GRACE: What about it, Mike Brooks? How could so quickly rule it out, especially the little toys?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Yes, I -- you know, Nancy, they know. They have been working this. They know from leads. They have been in the house. They`ve done search warrants. They know what`s human bone probably looks like because they are homicide investigator and that`s what the specialize it.

And you know, if you got the FBI and the Orange County there with the experience, both of those departments, they say it`s not related.

GRACE: You know, would seen it. They would at least take it and look at it.

BROOKS: Well, if it`s not related to it, if it`s not anything.

GRACE: Well, how would you know that, especially the toys?

BROOKS: Well, they probably know what kind of toys were in the house, what kind of toys did she had -- had played with.

GRACE: OK. All right, whatever.

BROOKS: I`m telling you, Nancy.

GRACE: Out to the lines. I hear you.

BROOKS: All right.

GRACE: Jennifer in Texas. Hi, Jennifer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you?

GRACE: What`s your question, dear? I`m good.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just love your babies, they`re so cute.

GRACE: Thank you, thank you very much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just have a question.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When Casey goes to trial, what evidence do they need to make sure that woman gets the death penalty?

GRACE: Eleanor Dixon, what about it?

DIXON: Aggravating circumstances and the biggest one is that she`s the child under the age of 12.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Peter Odom, Richard Herman -- to you, Richard, I still don`t get why when Casey Anthony heard the coverage that her daughter`s bones have been discovered, she goes back to her room.

HERMAN: Because she knew this was an orchestrated event by bozo media-whore Padilla. That`s why.

GRACE: Oh excuse me, I believe you are on the air waves right now as well, so pot, don`t call the kettle black.

What about it, Odom?

HERMAN: Hey, I`m not hogging all the media coverage.

GRACE: Uh-huh.

ODOM: Nancy, she`s been play-acting forever. But I still have to contend she knows where the body is buried. And she knows it wasn`t buried there and that`s why she didn`t react.

GRACE: Well, she`s not hiring you for the defense team.

Eleanor?

DIXON: Well, it`s a good thing she`s not hiring these two because they`d be my favorite jury members right now, Nancy.

ODOM: Oh yes, OK. Beautiful.

DIXON: And I think we all know why she went back and didn`t shed a tear.

HERMAN: Hey, Nancy, we defense lawyers love you. That`s why we do the show.

GRACE: Padilla, Padilla, why are they -- is somebody asking you to take a poly?

PADILLA: Well, I think it`s to make sure that I didn`t have anything to do with planting evidence and as I`ve told the media this afternoon out here, Lee, Cindy and George, obviously, don`t want to take a polygraph. I have no problem with it. Bozo, media whore, whatever you want to call it, I have no problem with a polygraph.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Elizabeth in Washington. Hi, Elizabeth.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, hello?

GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello. Thank you for being a good role model, first.

GRACE: Oh lord, please don`t say that. What`s your question? Hurry, hurry, hurry.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. My question is, Caylee was allegedly killed on June 15th and I would assume she would have been placed into the car at that point. Why on June 24th did George not smell that smell? And where would Casey possibly put the body when she came back with those gas cans, because it was reported George did get to the trunk?

GRACE: You want to tackle that one, Leonard Padilla?

PADILLA: Yes. Here`s what happened.

GRACE: Hurry.

PADILLA: She was gone in the wee hours -- excuse me?

GRACE: Hurry.

PADILLA: You mean hurry. 16th, on the 24th, the body has been packaged. When she went to the house on the 18th, she packaged it. There was only 2 1/2 days of decomposition in the trunk. After that the body was packaged and didn`t rip open until the 25th.

GRACE: Let`s remember Army Specialist Alex Gonzalez, 21, Mission, Texas, killed Iraq. Awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart. Loved baseball, football, golf, dreamed of being a cop.

Leaves behind parents, Alfredo and Dahlia, three sisters and doggie Lucky.

Alex Gonzalez, American hero.

Thank you to our guests and to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/13/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Casey Anthony Car Stills Smells of Decomposition

Aired November 14, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 21 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Bombshell. As we go to air, police confirm, after four long months, the horrible smell of human decomposition still at this hour in mom Casey`s car, the scent of death so bad, investigators say they can still smell it without even opening the car door. The stunning announcement comes as the defense team finally brings in their own forensic expert to examine mom Casey`s car.

And tonight, we learn mom Casey may have detectives over the barrel. Hours of so-called dead zone drop the tot mom cell activity on and around the day Caylee disappears. This after cell phone records reveal mom Casey obsessively texting and calling day and night, over 553 texts. But then the phone goes radio-silent when Caylee vanishes.

And tonight, a team of bounty hunters and volunteer divers continue to comb a local park and the murky alligator-infested waters in the Econ River in the search for Caylee. Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: I believe that there`s -- something was dead back there. And I smell and I`m, like, Oh, my God. I think I whispered out to myself, Please don`t let this be my Caylee.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to Orange County authorities, tot mom Casey Anthony`s car, which showed evidence of human decomposition, still reeks, and the car has been in the evidence garage for four months.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: There was no odor in the car when it was towed down to the towing company. No odor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One office said that he could smell the odor just by being near the vehicle, even with its doors locked.

CINDY ANTHONY: Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Local 6 analyzed hundreds of text messages and phone calls placed and received by Casey in the two weeks after Caylee disappeared. We found only 24 times when three or more hours passed with her phone remaining silent. And when you account for sleep and periods when she appeared to stay in the same place, we`re left with three gaps or dead zones, three hours of possibilities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: I was getting pretty upset, pretty frantic, and I went to a neutral place, still hoping that I would get a call, or you know, find out that Caylee was coming back so that I could go get her.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, a hometown Navy officer gunned down in cold blood. No, not Iraq, not Afghanistan, but in upscale Virginia suburbs. And the tragedy unfolds directly in front of the victim`s two little girls, his fiancee and the family dog, all out on a stroll in a quaint, pristine neighborhood. Tonight, who murdered Navy Lieutenant Todd Cox (ph)?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was "Pop," pause "Pop-pop, pop-pop."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The sounds of gunfire quickly turned this tranquil neighborhood in a chaotic crime scene. At around 8:00 o`clock, police say, Todd Cox, his fiancee and two children were walking their dog along Beverly (ph) Avenue when the shooter gunned Cox down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Megan (ph) says she made eye contact with the driver who would become Todd`s killer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was laying on the ground and I had my arms over my head, basically, once I realized what was happening. Really, I just laid there and waited to get shot myself. I thought for sure that he was going to shoot me, too. And then as soon as the shots stopped, I heard the truck start. And the truck was leaving, and I looked over.

i think, for the whole family, I mean, we deserve answers. And whoever did this needs to pay for what they`ve done. Todd didn`t deserve to die like this. Nobody does.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: Oh, after we pulled inside the garage, she said -- her exact words were, Jesus Christ, what died?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Orange County sheriff`s office says the smell coming from Casey Anthony`s car determined to be human decomposition is still present nearly four months later.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: When I drove around, I told my wife, I said, This car stinks so bad, I can`t -- I`m having a hard time driving it home. It`s raining outside. I have the windows down in the car probably about this much to get home. I couldn`t freaking breathe.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The sheriff`s department spokesman even went so far as to say he could smell the horrific odor just by being near the car, which had its doors and windows shut.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: When I first went there to pick up that vehicle, I got within three feet of it, I could smell something.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If Caylee died Monday, June 16, investigators may want to focus more on Wednesday, June 18, to Thursday, June 19. And we found two dead zones of interest on those days. First, Wednesday, June 18, the phone goes silent at 6:57 PM and does not ping another cell tower until 8:32 AM, Thursday the 19th. Later that Thursday, June 19, another unusual gap. Casey`s phone moves from around Tony`s apartment at 4:54 that afternoon, then starts toward the south and east. There`s no indication where Casey may have been. And if this is the time Casey may have disposed of the body in her car trunk, there`s no indication where Caylee may be, either.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams with WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, welcome back.

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Thank you.

GRACE: What can you tell me? What`s the latest on the search today, the dive search?

WILLIAMS: Well, first off, we can talk about the Anthony car. It still has that smell of death. Dr. Henry Lee and attorney Jose Baez stopped by the car today. They took a look at the car, they took photographs, things of that nature. They were not able to take anything away from the car.

And as opposed to the search now, we have in the little Econ River, a half dozen divers went into the Little Econ River earlier today, they came up empty-handed. Yesterday, if you recall, Nancy, they came up with a bag of goodies, basically, a Gumby doll and some bones, but they were not related to the Caylee Anthony case.

Now, this bombshell we just learned. Leonard Padilla, who has been conducting that search, the California bounty hunter, has been told by Blanchard Park officials, Out you go. You`re not going to be diving this weekend whatsoever.

GRACE: Why?

WILLIAMS: Because they just want a respite of everything that has happened out there. That area has already been searched by -- by Tim Miller and his Equusearch team. It`s already been cleared. So nobody really knows why there`s just this fascination from Leonard about going back into the water. There`s a lot of alligators in the water. There`s a lot of strange things in that water out there in the Little Econ.

GRACE: Well, it just seems to me -- I know that Tim Miller had used the sidescan sonar. I don`t know what it would hurt to also search with divers.

WILLIAMS: Well, you know, that`s a good back-up because one time, Tim Miller had promised that his divers would be out there, they never showed up. And that`s why Leonard Padilla hired a couple of divers to go in yesterday from a group called Black Water. And they were volunteers. They went in and found this bag. But there`s still a lot of things down there, and the water is very murky, Nancy.

GRACE: Let`s talk about this dead zone. What can you tell me about that, Mark Williams?

WILLIAMS: Well, what we can say is there were three times during the course of several days where her phone went dead. The first one was June 17, a three-hour period, between 5:23 and 8:23 PM. Then her cell phone pinged near Tony Lazzaro`s (ph) apartment near the University of Central Florida. Then on June 18, the cell went dead from 6:57 PM until 8:32 the next morning. Both times, again, the phone pinged when it was turned on near Lazzaro`s apartment. Then on the 19th, it pinged on a tower near Lake Underhill at 4:54 PM. Then the cell phone went dead for several hours.

GRACE: Out to famed forensic scientist Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky out of John Jay College of Criminal Justice. The detectives say now, four months after the fact, they still smell the smell of human decomposition. You are a paid consultant to the Anthony defense team. Take a listen to this, Koby (ph).

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you guys picked up the car, what else was in the car that may not have been in the car when we inventoried it?

GEORGE ANTHONY: You guys are aware of the smell of the car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I`m trying to tiptoe around that issue because I know it`s a sensitive one.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I just got to tell you my feelings are, and I don`t like how that smells. I`m being straight with you guys. I don`t like the smell in the car. I`m being straight with you guys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We didn`t like the smell, either.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m being straight and honest and I just...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we appreciate that, George, and we wouldn`t share that with anyone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, because that`s a difficult topic for you.

GEORGE ANTHONY: It`s tough. You know, stuff has got to come out. It`s just the way it is. I`m not going to hold back

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: There was no odor in the car when it was towed down to the towing company. No odor.

I thought rotten whatever it was, something decomposing in there. Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.

I know what I know. Caylee is not dead.

Air samples don`t mean anything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: No odor, Koby. But the detectives say four months later, it still reeks.

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, the chemistry of decomposition, whatever was decomposing, consists of a lot of different chemicals, some of them volatile -- they evaporate -- and some don`t. And I`m assuming that what they`re smelling are the chemicals that have adsorbed onto various surfaces either in the car, under the car, someplace on the car. So that`s what they`re smelling.

GRACE: The smell of decomposition? You are admitting there`s decomposition?

KOBILINSKY: I`m saying that something was decomposing. I don`t know what it was or whether it was human or not. But...

GRACE: Are you suggesting it`s a pizza, like your clients did?

KOBILINSKY: Certainly not. I don`t think...

GRACE: So you admit that it`s a life form.

KOBILINSKY: I don`t think it`s a pizza. And based on what I`ve read, it is a life form, or was a life form.

GRACE: We are taking your calls. To Peggy in Florida. Hi, Peggy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question. Where is Caylee`s dad? And who is he? Does anybody know?

GRACE: Out to Natisha Lance, our producer on the story from the get- go. Natisha, weigh in.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Caylee`s dad is someone who was never put on the birth certificate. There have been several different stories about who he was or who he is. But the long story short is that he is deceased, and he was not in Caylee`s life whatsoever.

GRACE: Why do you believe he`s deceased, because Casey Anthony said so?

LANCE: Well, yes. This is according to Casey Anthony that...

GRACE: Wait. Did you just say yes? You believe something Casey Anthony said?

LANCE: I`m not saying I believe it. I`m just saying, according to Casey Anthony, she says that the father of Caylee is deceased. And that seems to be a story that police have been comfortable with, and they`ve gone with that story, as well.

GRACE: To Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG. The search has ended. Will there be any more dives in Blanchard Park? The search has ended for today, that is.

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Well, as we`re hearing, Nancy, Leonard Padilla is not allowed back in Blanchard Park, so for now, Blanchard Park is going to be quiet for some time.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: I`ve been getting text messages, phone calls, media. I`ve heard it from all over. And you know, it`s been -- I hear it from the authorities. It`s just -- it is what it is. It`s a bag of whatever. Just another day in our lives. We go through this every day. I mean, stuff (ph) over at Blanchard Park`s a little different, you know, than what we`ve had, except I did get from Tim Miller they found bones the other day that were rib bones from a cow or something that someone put out at the site.

So you know, it is what it is. Right now, we`re dealing with this. And you know, we still believe firmly that Caylee`s alive. That`s where our focus has been from day one and we`re not faltering from that. And until something concrete comes in from the authorities and not speculation from anybody else, this is what our focus is on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And there has been a lot of infighting, a lot of division amongst the ranks in the search for little Caylee. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Leonard told me, Tim, you don`t realize the opportunity we`re missing, gave me the story about why he thought that. He said, The body`s right here. He said, Tim, think about it. Just think about it. We`ll have the cameras -- we`ll have your divers in there, TV cameras all around. Tim Miller is holding Caylee`s skull. Think how much money we can make, Tim. Exactly what happened today is what Leonard told us on Sunday, and we are doing a statement...

GRACE: Leonard Padilla, you want to respond to that?

MILLER: The script went exactly as he said. It`s not...

GRACE: Leonard, do you want to respond to that?

MILLER: ... a surface -- I asked Leonard to be...

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: I`d like to respond.

GRACE: I`d like to hear Leonard respond to that. Go ahead, Leonard.

PADILLA: I begged Tim to send his divers down because we only had one. And I asked him on Sunday -- I even went back by his headquarters and asked him, Please, Tim, we can`t pass up this opportunity, if you`ve got the divers. And he told me -- the last thing he told me Sunday was, OK, I`ll get them out there tomorrow morning. Well, when tomorrow morning came, we had our two divers, and then we decided to go ahead and send in the two divers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And we`ve done a lot of defending various parties on this show, a lot of defending anybody out there, trying to search to bring Caylee home. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Who pays your people?

MILLER: Nobody does, Nancy.

GRACE: They`re all volunteers.

MILLER: We`re all volunteers. I`ve got $35,000-plus invested in -- in Caylee`s search. But what price tag do you put on a missing person?

GRACE: Let them do what Tim Miller does with his search crews every day all over the country. People that are throwing stones -- you know what? They`re not doing anything except armchair quarterbacking. So you take whatever they say with a box of salt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Grandparents George and Cindy Anthony have been put through hell, publicly stating that the little girl is still alive. Many people have suggested that George and Anthony -- George and Cindy Anthony should also be charged. I disagree.

MILLER: Everybody`s looking forward to, hopefully, bringing this thing to a close this weekend.

GRACE: You know, I pray -- I pray that you`re right so the Anthonys can have some peace of mind.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Mark Williams with WNDB. Why all the infighting?

WILLIAMS: Boy, you know, it`s tough to say. I`ve stayed very, very, very neutral in this. I know Leonard Padilla. I have not yet met Tim Miller. Both seem to be honorable men. It`s difficult to say what goes on behind closed doors, Nancy. And I -- last week, I did a telephone talk show for our radio station, and I said everybody should throw a couple of bucks towards Tim Miller`s organization because they`re out there doing a great job. I hope this thing comes to an end soon because it`s...

GRACE: Well, bottom line...

WILLIAMS: ... because everybody hurts.

GRACE: ... here`s the deal, Mark Williams. It`s not the search for Mark Williams. It`s not the search for Padilla or Miller or George and Cindy Anthony or Nancy Grace, or anybody else. It is a search for Caylee.

WILLIAMS: That`s right.

GRACE: And I believe that a lot of people are getting confused about what is happening down in Florida right now.

We are taking your calls live. Out to Julie in Florida. Hi, Julie. I think I`ve got Julie on the phone. Hi, Julie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, if the Anthonys have this information that Caylee is alive, why are they wasting everybody`s time and effort? Why don`t they release it and get Casey out of jail?

GRACE: To Natisha Lance. Very quickly, Natisha, what is the most recent sighting? I understand it was in Coral Springs?

LANCE: That`s correct, Nancy. Cindy said the other day that there was a sighting at a McDonald`s in Coral Springs and they were looking into it and following up on that tip.

GRACE: And to you, Jessica D`Onofrio. I understand that every sighting -- Nashville, Tennessee, Coral Springs, Deltona, Florida, even an AirTran flight from Florida to Atlanta to Puerto Rico -- has been checked out by police? Yes, no.

D`ONOFRIO: They`ve all been checked out by police, Nancy, and they`ve all been dismissed.

GRACE: We are taking your calls. To Julie in Missouri. Hi, Julie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Hi, Nancy. I first want to say that I think it is great that Leonard is searching the river, regardless of his motives.

GRACE: And you know what? Even if his motive is for showmanship, even if that`s true, he`s searching. He`s searching. I know Tim Miller`s motive. He is a crime victim. His daughter was murdered and went missing, and that propelled him into a lifetime of searching for murder and kidnap victims. You know, I don`t care what the motivation is. They are trying to find Caylee.

What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, do they know yet what caused the stain in the back of the trunk?

GRACE: You know, that stain was actually referred to in George Anthony`s statement to police. To Lawrence Kobilinsky, who`s on the case for the Anthonys. Do you know what the stain is from?

KOBILINSKY: Honestly, I don`t. I mean, it`s been alluded to that it might be a pizza stain, it might be something biological. But I really...

GRACE: A pizza stain?

KOBILINSKY: I heard stories like that.

GRACE: You know, Koby, you know, you keep saying things like that...

KOBILINSKY: I`m not...

GRACE: ... and they`re going to play it on cross-examination on you at trial.

KOBILINSKY: I am not implying it`s a pizza stain. I`m saying I`ve heard that language. But I don`t know what that stain is. I have no idea.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Hugo Rodriguez out of Miami, defense attorney Carmen St. George out of New York. To you Carmen. Yesterday, when Caylee (SIC) Anthony hears on the jailhouse TV that there may be discovery of a child`s bones at the bottom of the Econ River, they told her to go back to her cell, she said, Fine, turned around and walked off. Can you imagine?

CARMEN ST. GEORGE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: What else is she going to say, Nancy?

GRACE: Insist that she gets to see the coverage?

ST. GEORGE: Nancy, I think, at this point, she knows she`s the focus of the investigation. She wants to really leave it to the authorities, let them see what they come up with and then answer to it with her attorney.

GRACE: Leave it to the authorities. OK. That`s a good one since she refuses to say cooperate, Carmen. What about it, Hugo?

ST. GEORGE: She doesn`t have to, Nancy. She`s the accused.

GRACE: Yes, and it`s her daughter missing. Rodriguez?

HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I understand that Joe Baez is going in there every day or every other day to apprise her. It`s a difficult situation. I don`t know that we can insinuate anything from it. You would expect some other type of response.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)

CASEY ANTHONY: My daughter`s been missing for the last 31 days.

CINDY ANTHONY: I found my daughter`s car today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The smell that I smelled inside that car was the smell of decomposition.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I believe my daughter ran over something.

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t know what your involvement is, sweetheart. You`re not telling me where she`s at.

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I don`t (DELETED) know where she`s at! Are you kidding me?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CINDY ANTHONY: My husband`s a deputy sheriff. Years ago, he was a homicide investigator, as well. And the first thing he thought was human decomposition. I`m a nurse. I thought human decomposition.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lee Anthony says Casey claimed she first noticed the smell on June 5.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: She said it started around that time when two dead squirrels crawled up under the hood of the car, you know, and they died in there.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert joining us out of Raleigh. Ben, it`s great to have you back on. What do you make of this problem the police now have, these dead zones where they can`t determine where Casey Anthony is for hours on end?

BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT: Well, it`s kind of amazing, Nancy, isn`t it, that the best thing the defense has is that their client constantly made phone calls, so we constantly knew where -- where Casey Anthony was, and there`s only a three-hour period over four days that we don`t know where she was? That`s pretty amazing.

GRACE: Yes, but there were three different times that she goes radio- silent. Tell me what your analysis was of her calls, Ben.

LEVITAN: Well, I was just shocked at the sheer volume of calls that Casey Anthony made. There was a one-hour period of time at 8:00 o`clock in the morning where she sent 66 text messages.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.

There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car, full of maggots it stunk so bad.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: There was an overpowering smell. I`ll admit that.

C. ANTHONY: There was no odor in the car when it was towed down to the towing company. No odor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have forensic evidence that has been returned to us regarding the vehicle. Preliminary information indicates that there is decomposition in that vehicle from a human body.

C. ANTHONY: Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.

G. ANTHONY: Maybe my daughter ran over something.

C. ANTHONY: The hair samples don`t mean anything. If we continue to, you know, look at evidence that hasn`t been verified, you guys are going to put Caylee in a coffin, because eventually something is going to happen to her if we don`t find her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They found hair samples in the trunk of the car that was similar in length and color to that of Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The information that we`ve got back from the FBI lab indicating that, you know, that she was in the trunk of that car and that`s she`s dead, certainly is information we take very seriously.

G. ANTHONY: The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s car is not my granddaughter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony, insisting the little girl is still alive. The searches go on, including the murky waters of the Econ River, and tonight we learn detectives go back to the car, and four months later, it wreaks of human decomposition.

We are taking your calls live.

I want to talk about the dead zone for one more moment. Detectives over the barrel. They`re in a bad spot, because, apparently, cell phone towers dropped for hours on end mom Casey`s signal around the time little Caylee goes missing.

Ben Levitan with us, telecommunications expert out of Raleigh.

Again, tell me your analysis of her telephone calls and texting.

BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT: Well, Nancy, I have looked at four days of her records around June 16th, and I found that this is a woman who slept about three to four hours a night, based on when she sent her last text message and when she sent her first text message in the morning.

She was getting up at 8:00 in the morning and sending 60 text messages. She averaged 12 an hour. You`d think a mom would wake up first thing in the morning and up and take care of her child.

Now all we have is three hours that she wasn`t using the phone. So it`s not a dead zone, Nancy. Let`s call it a period of inactivity, which is perfectly normal with people who own cell phones.

GRACE: But if your cell phone is turned on, wouldn`t the tower be able to pick it up?

LEVITAN: Yes, it would, Nancy. But the only information that`s been released that I have, the only forensic evidence, indicates when calls were placed or when she received calls, or when text messages were sent or received.

We do not have further technical data that says that her phone was actually off or in an area where she couldn`t receive a signal. We have not seen that.

GRACE: And at the most, to Sergeant Scott Haines, sheriff`s office with Santa Rosa County, Florida, at the most, we`ve got a three-hour stretch. How far can you go in three hours?

Let`s see, 60 times 3, 180, that`s 90 miles one way, 90 miles back. But on those days, Sergeant Haines, June 17th, 18th and 19th, she can be placed at other locations during the day which would preclude her from driving 90 miles anywhere.

So how bad do these dead zones really hurt police?

SGT. SCOTT HAINES, SHERIFF`S OFFICER, SANTA ROSA COUNTY, FL.: I don`t think they hurt them that bad. Any area has dead zones. The ping locates within a few miles. So -- and when they overlap, they can triangulate, so that can be narrowed down.

There is always going to be dead zones if the phone is off, it`s not going to ping. So they`re still looking for a very close proximity and I don`t think it`s going to hurt them that bad with all the other evidence that they have.

GRACE: Let`s take a further look at it, to Dr. Jeff Gardere, psychologist, and author. Dr. Gardere, what does it mean behaviorally the fact that, as Levitan tells us, she is texting 60, 70 times an hour and suddenly she goes radio-silent for extended periods of time when Caylee goes missing?

JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "LOVE PRESCRIPTION": Yes, it tells me that there is a possibility that she was having some sort of a manic episode, something traumatic may have happened that we think she probably may have been part of.

This is a young woman who is desperate, who is confused, but there was something going on, something catastrophic going on with her emotionally at that time.

GRACE: To change that behavior.

Joining me right now, Michael Gast, he is the president and founder of National Academy of Police Diving, he is also a training -- a trainer.

Mr. Gast, it`s great to have you with us. What is your analysis of the dive search of the Econ River down there in Florida?

MICHAEL GAST, FOUNDER & PRESIDENT, TRAINER, NATIONAL ACADEMY OF POLICE DIVING: Well, every search requires the people that are involved to be systemic and thorough. And that means if they`re a team they need to be people that work together.

When you cover an area, you need to be able to be concise in what you`re searching for, and give up an area that`s not in it.

GRACE: Does it matter if you`re searching at day or nighttime?

GAST: For the diver, it really doesn`t, if the visibility in the bottom, turbidity, as such that you can`t see anything anyways. But in the daytime, it`s better for safety. That people on the surface can tend to any emergencies that come up a lot more efficiently.

GRACE: And also, isn`t it true that in the daytime a little bit of light filters down?

GAST: Most of the time that is true. But sometimes the turbidity can be such that it`s just zero visibility.

GRACE: How much does the silt on the bottom of the river confuse things for the divers?

GAST: Well, it depends on how badly they stir it up. If it`s a river, it`s obviously flowing. So if they address the turbidity or the silt coming up as they move into the water, it`s going to be going behind them, so they`ll be hitting fresh bottom each time.

GRACE: And, everybody, with me, Michael Gast, the president and founder of National Academy of Police Diving. These people are actually diving amongst alligators. Thoughts?

GAST: Well, it`s just something you need to be cautious with. Alligators tend to want to stay away from people moving in the water with them. They do have tell-tale signs as far as when they`re aggressive and when they`re not. But you need to, obviously, have people watching out for any cruising through the area.

GRACE: Also joining me Mark Smith, polygraph expert and he is the VP in New Jersey Polygraphists.

Sir, thank you very much. Question: if you take two polygraphs off one person, can you fail one and pass another with the same questions?

MARK SMITH, POLYGRAPH EXPERT, V.P. NJ POLYGRAPHISTS: I wouldn`t think so, Nancy.

GRACE: Why is that?

SMITH: Because if someone is telling the truth, they`re going to come up every time they`re tested as truthful. If they`re not, they`re going to come up deceptive.

GRACE: And what if someone is a habitual violator -- habitual liar?

SMITH: That`s a common myth. Habitual liars are just good liars, but it has no effect on the polygraph. I`ve never seen that in any of the cases I`ve run.

GRACE: You mean it would have no effect on the polygraph?

SMITH: Someone who is a habitual liar means they lie a lot. It doesn`t mean that they can control the physiology in their body that`s going to happen when they lie.

GRACE: How do you beat a polygraph?

SMITH: I don`t think you can. You can be trained maybe to meditate or something like that, or disassociate yourself from your body, but it would be extremely, extremely difficult.

GRACE: I agree with you. I agree with you. I think the trick is in the questions asked.

Everyone, with me an expert, Mark Smith, with New Jersey Polygraphists. Joining me right now by phone, Tim Miller with EquuSearch.

Hi, Tim.

TIM MILLER, HEAD OF EQUUSEARCH, RESUMING SEARCH FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: You`re calling in to make a point. Tell me.

MILLER: Well, I mean, the point is, there`s been so much negative stuff going around here, and so much -- and you know what, I think that all in all, little Caylee has touched and broken every heart in America.

And you know, once in a while we have different personalities, we`ve got different attitudes, and unfortunately they clash at times, and then we lose our focus. And I`m just begging everybody to get their focus back on this little girl. And it`s all about Caylee.

Not about anything else. So let`s get our emotions back together and let`s get our focus back together and find this little girl.

GRACE: Tim, Tim, I got to tell you something. I would feel the same way that you`re feeling right now when I was trying cases. When you`re there with the victim`s family, and you`re working day and night, back-breaking hours, it is so hard.

And I know you, Tim Miller. You`re a crime victim yourself after the murder of your daughter. And I know that every case you handle brings that back up in some way or another. I know you went down at least eight times in the search for Natalee Holloway.

Will EquuSearch continue in the effort to find Caylee?

MILLER: You know, the positive thing that came out of Caylee that nobody really knows, Nancy, is we`ve gotten over 85 brand-new Texas EquuSearch members in Orlando that`s going to continue searching on weekends on a smaller scale.

And I told Cindy Anthony the other day, I said, you know what, one day you will realize that Caylee`s disappearance wasn`t in vain, because we are getting new members together, a whole new chapter together down here, and it`s not -- if it happens, it`s when it`s happened.

There will be people here to hit the ground running, so no parent will be alone when their child is missing.

GRACE: Well, Tim.

MILLER: Through all the bad, Nancy, that we`ve learned and, you know what, we`re more prepared for the next one.

GRACE: Tim, I know that there has been a lot of stones thrown and a lot of infighting. But you`re always welcome here. I know where your heart is. And I want to thank you for calling in.

Everybody, we`ll be right back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: My mother and father told me that my dad actually drove the car back because my mother was talking about how she didn`t know how my dad survived it because the smell was so bad.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We went from planning a wedding to a funeral. And it`s just the same nightmare every day you wake up.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A fiancee desperate for help, speaking out after her future husband brutally gunned down.

Naval Lieutenant Todd Cox went for a walk with his family. Out of nowhere, a pickup truck pulls up, a gunman walks up to Todd and fires at point blank range, hitting Todd multiple times.

The brutal murder, right in front of his own fiancee and family. Now, his fiancee begs for just one tip, so justice is served.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Just one tip. That`s all we need.

To Jane Velez-Mitchell, host of "ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL" here on Headline News just before our show.

Jane, please tell me what happened. Is there any break in the case here? This is a tragedy.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, "ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL": It`s a horrific tragedy, and Nancy, there are promising developments to the story. And frankly, it`s thanks to you. The fiancee of this murdered naval hero had become increasingly frustrated and desperate and scared over the months, because she said she just wasn`t getting any answers from the local authorities.

And this was a particularly gruesome execution-style slaying.

GRACE: Right in front of the children.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right in front of the children, this guy pumps five bullets into this naval officer, and then doesn`t say a word, doesn`t take anything, gets in the pick-up truck and drives off.

This happened near her home. So she`s scared, at times, to go back her house. She`s terrified. So in desperation, she contacts you, you put the story on the air last Friday, and miracle of miracles, what a coincidence, she is now getting full cooperation from the police.

She has met with them. They assure this is an active investigation and they are pursuing all leads.

GRACE: To Megan McGuire, this is Lieutenant Todd Cox`s fiancee. Megan, it is so great to have you with us again. The children were right there with you, taking a walk with the family dog. How are they responding to what they witnessed?

MEGAN MCGUIRE, LT. TODD COX`S FIANCEE, DAD & NAVAL OFFICER SHOT IN COLD BLOOD: They`re doing well. They`re all in counseling. They are -- I mean, I guess kids are a little more resilient, you know, than adults. So they`re doing well.

GRACE: Tell me about the break in the case. What do we know?

MCGUIRE: Actually, as far as any break in the case, I really don`t have any information on that. I was told that, obviously, that it is an active case, that they are making progress on it.

GRACE: They are making progress? Do they have a person of interest or a suspect?

MCGUIRE: I know that several months ago they had mentioned a person of interest or, you know, were following up on some leads. But as far as specific information, I don`t have any of that.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Hugo Rodriguez and Carmen St. George.

Hugo out in Miami, this was in cold blood. There wasn`t a fight leading up to it, it wasn`t an accident, the guy gets out of the car and guns down an American military man in front of his children.

HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FMR. FBI AGENT: Obviously, from someone who`s either done this in the past or was calculated and planned. This was some type of a hit. They obviously knew the victim. They obviously possibly knew where they were at. And just went to him. It wasn`t random. I think it was calculated.

GRACE: And Carmen St. George, you know what that means, that is death penalty country.

CARMEN ST. GEORGE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy. And I definitely would agree that it`s targeted and specific. Unless there`s some sort of misidentification that they thought he was someone else or.

GRACE: But that wouldn`t be a defense. I meant to murder somebody else, but I got him instead?

ST. GEORGE: Not a defense at all.

GRACE: That will help.

ST. GEORGE: Not a defense, but I`m just saying, in terms of investigating this crime, it looks like somebody was out to get him specifically, or if it was somebody else that he was misidentified, then that`s a different story. But this is definitely not a random act.

GRACE: To Jane Velez-Mitchell -- Jane, why had the case sat stymie for so long?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, they just don`t have that much information. They didn`t get a good description of the perpetrator because the fiancee, understandably -- first of all, he heroically pushed her to the ground, the murdered man, before he was gunned down to get her out of the way.

She was on the ground, curled up in a ball, with her hands over her face. The kids hid behind a tree, so they didn`t get a good description. And then this guy drove off. He didn`t say anything, he didn`t take anything. So that`s the problem.

GRACE: Back to Megan McGuire, Lieutenant Todd Cox`s fiancee.

Everybody, just let me tell you right off the top, the tip line is 888-562- 5887. 888-LOCK- U-UP. There`s a $4,000 reward.

Megan McGuire, that night you didn`t get a good look at the guy?

MCGUIRE: No, I didn`t.

GRACE: Why?

MCGUIRE: When we were walking down the street, we were on the sidewalk and the truck drove down the street on my right. I just glanced over. We just glanced at one another.

GRACE: What about the vehicle? What did the vehicle look like?

MCGUIRE: It was a white Ford F-150 with a green stripe down the side. A two-tone truck, probably a mid -- early to mid `90s model.

GRACE: OK. Let me put that out there. A mid `90s white and green Ford F- 150 pickup. Maybe you have the answer to this mystery.

Right now, "CNN HEROES."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Heroes.

SHAQUILLE O`NEAL, NBA SUPERSTAR: The message would be a very disturbing thing. I don`t really think a lot of women know what to do.

My name is Shaquille O`Neal, my hero is Karen Earl. She helps and keeps women out of domestic violence situations.

KAREN EARL, COMMUNITY CRUSADER: My friend brought me to Jenesse Center. She said, Karen, they need volunteers. I never knew that there were shelters that were safe houses. And I thought about, you know, my mom.

I remember us having to run out of the house at midnight with sheets wrapped around us. I know the impact it had on my mom, and of course impact on me and my siblings. So I volunteered and I never left.

And in `97, I became the executive director.

O`NEAL: The Jenesse Center is a comprehensive center. You can bring your children. They`ll help you get back on your feet.

EARL: We have more than 100 beds where the women and their children can stay for two years. We started something that we call healing through art. We try to work with that particular family to help them express what it is that they`re feeling.

O`NEAL: Miss Earl is a tireless, fearless woman. She`s helping those in need. You get the presidential clap from me.

ANNOUNCER: Vote now, CNN.com/heroes.

CNN Heroes is sponsored by.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and more important the people who touched our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JORAN VAN DER SLOOT: Do what you have to do for that. You have to shake your ass, that`s all you have to do. If I could shake my ass for 50,000 baht, I`d shake my ass.

GRACE: The women you see judge`s son Joran Van Der Sloot snugged up in that hotel room with are college students there in Thailand. He is trying to talk them into going to the Netherlands, his birthplace, to be dancers and models, translation, hookers.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The body of a former "American Idol" contestant was found just outside the home of "Idol" judge Paula Abdul. Police have confirmed that the woman was found dead inside her car just yards away from Abdul`s home.

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, you mean to tell me that if someone`s watching you walk out of your house, maybe we should put them behind bars.

GRACE: No.

RIPKA: . in case they`re a psycho and going to kill somebody?

GRACE: But if somebody is there every day, at all hours of the day and night, with a mental history, you`re darn right, they need to be put behind bars and maybe Selena and John Lennon would still be alive today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maybe a break in the disappearance of Caylee Anthony. It`s a swampy river basin area where police have found what appeared to be possibly the remains of little Caylee Anthony.

KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV, COVERING STORY: What they thought were bones were actually two rocks. One was smaller than the other. I saw the larger one. It was sort of diamond-shaped. But again, they were saying it had nothing to do.

GRACE: No connection with Caylee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, let`s remember Army Specialist Mary Jaenichen, 20, Temecula, California, killed Iraq. A military police officer, she wore the same brass medallion as her father when he served in Operation Desert Storm.

Always thought of others first, loved the beach, spending time with friends, handing out comic books to Iraqi children. Leaves behind parents Alfred and Julieta, two brothers, two sisters.

Mary Jaenichen, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially you for being with us. And a special good night from the New York control room.

Night, Brett, Liz, Stacy, Evil.

Tonight, good night from friends of the show from Ivy League Philadelphia Wharton University, Naomi, Marina, Dan, Tyler Ronnie, Andrea, Nicole. What a fine bunch.

Welcome back, sweet Naomi.

Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/14/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Text Messages Show Casey Anthony Frustrated With Mother`s Duties

Aired November 17, 2008 - 20:00:00 

Text Messages Show Casey Anthony Frustrated With Mother`s Duties

Aired November 17, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Police desperately searching for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee, after her grandparents report her missing, little Caylee now not seen 22 long weeks, last seen with her mother. So why didn`t Mommy call police?
Headlines tonight. Police suspicions confirmed. Tonight, the timeline is finally nailed down and it reveals that in the days and weeks leading up to Caylee`s disappearance, tot mom repeatedly complains to friends Caylee`s cramping her style, her social life. And it all comes straight from the horse`s mouth. Her own text messages do her in.

And tonight, the search continues in a local park, including in the murky, alligator-infested waters of the Econ River, all in the search for Caylee. And although the tot mom`s not cooperating with police in the search for Caylee, a Florida trial lawyer is now set to depose her under oath in hours. Will the tot mom finally be forced to speak? Bounty hunter, leading the search for Caylee, Leonard Padilla, agrees to a polygraph. But will grandparents George and Cindy Anthony and brother, Lee, break down and do the same? Tonight, where is Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More developments in the case of missing 3-year- old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. According to text messages from tot mom Casey Anthony`s cell phone, her nighttime activities were being heavily restricted by her daughter, Caylee. Multiple text messages from the tot mom in May show that Anthony was desperate to go out with friends and hit the party scene, but could not because it would mean leaving her then 2- year-old daughter Caylee home alone. Anthony`s mommy duties were not allowing her to have fun with friends and caused the tot mom to constantly wait for her mother, Cindy Anthony, to come home to take care of the parenting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere, and you`re worried that if we find that out that people are going to look at you the wrong way?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So she`s either in a dumpster right now, she`s buried somewhere, she`s -- she`s out there somewhere and her rotting body is starting to decompose. No more lies. No more bull coming out of your mouth. We`ve been very respectful. We`re taking our time talking to you. But we`re tired to the lies. No more lies. What happened to Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It would have been great to get Casey, Lee, Cindy and George would have taken a lie-detector test.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Despite swirling anger and personal attacks among the players in the Casey Anthony case, volunteer searchers continue to search for Caylee, hoping to bring her home and bring peace to a community desperate for answers.

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: Kidfinders -- it`s -- (INAUDIBLE) people are on our side. We believe our granddaughter`s alive and still out there, and we`re going to bring her home. You know, this other stuff that`s going on is just a distraction.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And tonight, the mystery surrounding 23-year-old mom Stacy Peterson, vanishing upscale Chicago suburbs, husband/cop Drew Peterson the suspect in his fourth wife`s disappearance. The suspicious bathtub drowning of wife number three officially ruled homicide. He`s still insisting wife number four left her own children for another man, claiming she remains in hiding.

Peterson now plans to file for divorce. It`s all caught on audiotape. At stake, all the marital assets, including the family home. The prime suspect in his fourth wife`s disappearance, Peterson must now prove in court that she left him. But how?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DREW PETERSON, SUSPECT IN WIFE`S DISAPPEARANCE: I really believe she took off with somebody. Why am I going out searching for someone I don`t believe is there? You know, it`s a waste of my time. It`s, like, crazy.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Former Bolingbrook, Illinois, police officer Drew Peterson, a suspect in his four wife, Stacy`s, disappearance, is said to be seeking a divorce from the missing mom of two.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DEREK ARMSTRONG, AUTHOR, "DREW PETERSON EXPOSED": You`re seeing him about a divorce?

PETERSON: I`m just getting information right now. I`m exploring options.

ARMSTRONG: On what basis? You`ve said she`s a runaway, that she`s alive.

PETERSON: A desertion. She deserted me. I`ve always said that I`m mad about that. But I`m looking into this for the kids. This neighborhood is not healthy for my kids because of Sharon Bychowski.

ARMSTRONG: Do you think the story of this divorce might encourage Stacy to contact you?

PETERSON: I have nothing more to say.

ARMSTRONG: Well, what about the rumors that the state`s attorney is getting ready to indict for homicide on one of your wives?

PETERSON: I told you, nothing to say.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Man, he`s been blabbing for months. Now he clams up? Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight. The desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will Casey Anthony actually be forced to give details of what happened to Caylee from behind bars? Zenaida Gonzalez`s attorney, John Morgan, hopes that`s the case. He says he plans to depose Casey from jail, thanks to Anthony`s countersuit against Zenaida Gonzalez. In that suit, Anthony claims she was truthful to investigators. Now Morgan telling local reporters the countersuit forces Anthony to either give a deposition or drop her lawsuit. Morgan hopes to depose Anthony within the next two weeks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I got off of work, left Universal, driving back to pick up Caylee, like a normal day. And I show up to the apartment, knock on the door, nobody answers. So I called Zenaida`s cell phone and it`s out of service.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: My daughter was on the edge. You know that (INAUDIBLE) all these contradictions.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We even pulled surveillance video from the apartment complex. And they have to keep this by law for several days, OK? And we`re not seeing you over there. We`re not seeing you at all that day. Do you think that we`re stupid and we`re not going to...

CASEY ANTHONY: I know you`re not stupid.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... do all this stuff?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: My daughter (INAUDIBLE) the car (INAUDIBLE)

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All this while reports indicate divers plan to return to Blanchard Park to continue the search for Caylee in the Little Econ River, while Leonard Padilla confirms he`s waiting for the FBI to administer a polygraph.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A lot happening in the search for Caylee. With us tonight, the renowned scientist Dr. Henry Lee. As you know, Dr. Lee has been called in on the Anthony case, and he has examined the automobile belonging to the tot mom that still reeks of human decomposition now 22 weeks after Caylee goes missing. We`ll go straight to Dr. Lee.

But first to Natisha Lance, our producer. Her own text messages are doing her in. What do they confirm? I understand our suspicions are now confirmed, as to a possible motive, Natisha?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, the text messages confirm, Nancy, that, apparently, Casey`s mommy duties were getting in the way of her being able to go out. There were several text messages she had with friends between May and June, where in which time she had to cancel certain plans with them because she said, quote, her "mommy duties" got in the way. Now, one of these times was with Amy Huizenga on May 3. Another time was in mid-May, and another time, as well, was at the end of May. And then after that, she ends up going to that no clothes party, which we`ve all seen the pictures from with her in that American flag. And then at the end of June...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Wait! The no clothes party? Did you say no clothes, C-L-O-T-H-E-S, no clothing party?

LANCE: Yes. It was...

GRACE: No, I didn`t know about that. What`s that?

LANCE: It was actually the anything but clothes party. And in the text messages, she says that, You will see the American flag in all of its glory.

GRACE: OK. Before we go to Dr. Henry Lee, very quickly to Dr. Janet Taylor, psychiatrist. Dr. Taylor, at her point in life with a child, a 2- year-old child, what is she doing at a party that the cops bust up at 1:15 AM?

DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Hey, she`s an unmarried mother who`s still young, and she made an unfortunate decision when she had her child, and that`s to understand...

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait!

TAYLOR: ... the complete responsibilities...

GRACE: When I was her age, I was not at a party that was broken up by cops. I was in law school, working two jobs. Help me out here, Doctor.

TAYLOR: Well, she chose to be a mom, and with being a mother comes the responsibilities of denying what you want to do and taking care of your child. Clearly, that was a conflict for her. Her mother seemingly bailed her out numerous times. But as she said, the mommy duties became too overwhelming. She just wasn`t ready to be a mother.

GRACE: I just don`t see what you said, Doctor -- Dr. Janet Lee (SIC) -- denying what you want to do. I would think that what you would want to do is be with your child.

TAYLOR: Well, I mean, the reality is, mothers feel a lot of pull. It`s a lot of responsibility. Sometimes you have support, sometimes you don`t. But most of us have to make the sacrifices with coming with the decision that we have made to have our children, to raise our children, and to delay our gratification until later.

GRACE: With me, before I lose him, I want to go to Dr. Henry Lee, who is taking time out of his travel schedule to join us tonight. You know Dr. Henry Lee originally probably from the Orenthal James Simpson double murder trial, forensic scientist. He has examined Casey Anthony`s car. He is a consultant on the Anthony defense team. Dr. Lee?

DR. HENRY LEE, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO ANTHONY DEFENSE: Yes. How are you, Nancy?

GRACE: Friend.

LEE: I haven`t talked to you for a while.

GRACE: I know. I`ve been missing you, Dr. Lee. It`s nice to hear your voice. So did the car still stink to high heaven when you examined it?

LEE: Yes, when I examine the car, it still have the odor.

GRACE: Now, Dr. Lee, your testimony has been extremely impressive in the past. No one will ever forget the various demonstrations that you have done in high-profile court cases. When you say it smelled, is it true the car smells of decomposition?

LEE: The smell -- actually, it`s a rotten smell. It`s caused by any type of decomposition. The definition of decomposition, anything. It can be any food material. Can be human body. Can be any type of thing, decomposition. So the terms decomposed, human body odor, I don`t think any scientist can qualify to say -- just smell the odor, say that`s a human body.

GRACE: Well, Dr. Henry Lee -- everyone, with us, he is on the Anthony defense team -- I know that you have the highest regard for the Oak Ridge Laboratories in Tennessee. I trained there myself for a period of time. According to them, and their -- their specialty unit, the "body farm," there was evidence of human decomposition. Would that be consistent with the smell that you smelled, Dr. Henry Lee?

LEE: Here, that`s -- you know, I`m a scientist. I only can address some scientific issue. I cannot speculate. Decomposition, because the trunk -- don`t forget, I looked at not only the car. Also looked at the liner, the carpet. Also looked at the content of the material. And I don`t know anybody informed me or not -- there are a lot of garbage was collected. A lot of material was collected from the trunk.

GRACE: Like what?

LEE: Like what? Like food, like meat, like pizza box, like cheese, like ham, box (ph) of soda, and all different material in there. So basically, a lot of maggots and a lot of insects, all kind of material mixed together. So I cannot really elaborate too much on what I found because this is an active case. I cannot really reach a conclusion at this moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The trunk of Casey Anthony`s car is a trove of information which could be critical to the first degree murder case against her, since her daughter, Caylee`s, body has not been found. The FBI says it also found unusually high levels of chloroform, a potentially deadly substance, in the vapors coming from the carpet in Casey`s trunk, more than you would expect from normal human decomposition.

GEORGE ANTHONY: You guys don`t know! The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s (SIC) car is not my granddaughter!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Joining us right now, renowned scientist, Dr. Henry Lee. Shortly, we will be joined by another famed forensic scientist, Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky. Dr. Lee joining us as he heads to the Philippines to accept a peace award medal. Again, thank you for being with us. Dr. Henry Lee, what part of the car did you examine?

LEE: OK. Nancy, I look at the whole car. Then I examine the liner, the carpet, the content of the car. I also want to take this opportunity to thank the Orange sheriff department, the crime scene investigator and detective. They`re true professionals. So the whole examination took a whole day and very professional manner. We did find some additional evidence, which was collected and handed to the sheriff`s department.

GRACE: Dr. Lee, do you plan on looking at any other evidence in the case, such as the hair samples?

LEE: Not right now. My initial agreement was just to examine the car, to look at the car. So I don`t know any other evidence. And of course, a lot depends on the schedule and -- to look at the hair or not. And I`m sure if it`s important -- Larry -- Dr. Kobilinsky is another excellent forensic scientist. I`m sure he can look at the hair, too.

GRACE: Dr. Henry Lee, you stated that there was a lot of garbage in the car. Did I understand you correctly to say meat and cheese were in the car?

LEE: Box of -- you know, those (INAUDIBLE) frozen foods. So have some food residue there. But we did find a lot of maggots, insect activity and fungus growing. But you know, it`s a lot of (INAUDIBLE) information have to digest before we reach any conclusion.

GRACE: And Dr. Lee, you said frozen food? Such as what?

LEE: Frozen food boxes. You know, those packages.

GRACE: Frozen food boxes. Was there food inside of it?

LEE: Well, because right now, I can`t really say too much about what we looked at, what we found, OK?

GRACE: And Dr. Lee, I understand that. You are a paid consultant on the Anthony defense team. And very quickly, Dr. Henry Lee, I asked you about the body farm, which is a special unit there at Oak Ridge Laboratories in Tennessee.

LEE: Yes. That`s not really -- the body farm, just people give that name. The correct term is Tennessee Anthropological Testing Facility.

GRACE: It certainly is. And I understand that you have the utmost respect for them.

LEE: Yes. Dr. Bass (ph) is a good friend of mine and -- but I doubt any forensic anthropologist can just smell the odor and reach a conclusion.

GRACE: No, it`s my understanding they took an air sample, and then with a gas spectrometer, then analyzed it and found human decomposition in it.

LEE: Right. Well (INAUDIBLE) it`s identified as organic molecules.

GRACE: Right.

LEE: It`s not going to identify human or nonhuman. Any decomposed molecules this (ph) consist of certain amount of components only shows some of those organic material present. That`s -- I think -- you know, somebody looked at this and reach a conclusion that`s human decomposition. That`s little bit too far.

GRACE: Joining us...

LEE: But right this moment, of course, we have to digest, to review the report and to found out what exactly it means.

GRACE: With us tonight exclusively, Dr. Henry Lee. He is a forensic consultant to the Anthony defense team.

Very quickly, I want to go out to Kathi Belich, with WFTV. On Friday, it was reported that Leonard Padilla was kicked out of the Jay Blanchard Park. There he was with volunteer divers, searching the bottom of the Econ River. That`s not true at all. He was not kicked out. There were simply other functions at the park, and he didn`t search over the weekend. He is resuming the search this week, is that correct, Kathi Belich?

KATHI BELICH, WFTV: That`s right. The divers plan to be back later this week. I`m not sure if he is coming back with them. I did talk with him, actually, about a half hour ago, and he couldn`t tell me when he might take this lie-detector test, either. He has agreed to take a lie-detector test. He doesn`t know why they`ve asked him to take a test, but he says he`s agreed to it and he`ll either come back to Orlando to take that test, if he has to, or an FBI agent in the Sacramento area will do that.

But yes, he was not -- he was told not to come back for the weekend because there were a lot of activities at the park, it`s very crowded, and they really didn`t want us and everybody else there, as well. So he is welcome to come back this week, as far as I understand.

GRACE: Well, Kathi, let`s get it straight from the horse`s mouth. With me right now, bounty hunter Leonard Padilla. Why are you being asked to take a polygraph test? And to your credit, you`ve said, Sure, strap me up!

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: To be honest with you, I think sometimes, you know, the tactics of putting an individual like me in a car when you could just as easily stand there in front of 100 people and ask them questions is meant to either annoy or upset you, which it doesn`t. I`ve sat in many cop cars. I think that the situation about a lie detector-test being asked in front of people is supposed to make you uncomfortable or disconcerting and I got...

GRACE: Well, you don`t look uncomfortable to me.

PADILLA: No, no.

(CROSSTALK)

PADILLA: I`ve taken lie-detector tests going back to when I was...

GRACE: I hope you passed them.

PADILLA: I think I did, in the military, many, many times. So something like this is probably...

GRACE: What are they -- are people alleging that you planted what was found in the Econ River?

PADILLA: I was asked that by reporters, not by law enforcement. But I think the main thing is the cross that was on the tree...

GRACE: Right.

PADILLA: ... that two young ladies took pictures of back in August. And on the Sunday and Monday that we were there, one of our team members found two little... GRACE: Beads.

PADILLA: ... beads that matched the beads in Casey`s house identically. And I think law enforcement was a little, Oh, my God, how did we miss those? Well, my guys are taught to dig, dig and dig more.

GRACE: Well, with us, taking your calls live tonight, Leonard Padilla. More on the search and the text messages that confirmed what we already suspected about possible motive for Caylee`s disappearance.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Favorite places to go. I guess Universal`s one of them.

CASEY ANTHONY: Well, as a theatrical thing, of course. But she liked Jay Blanchard Park, going to Lake Underhill and walking around the lake.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whereabouts in the park did she like the best?

CASEY ANTHONY: The playground. She liked to just attempt to run around Lake Underhill.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING TODDLER: My husband is a deputy sheriff. Years ago, he was a homicide investigator, as well. And the first thing he thought was human decomposition. I`m a nurse. I thought human decomposition.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lee Anthony says Casey claimed she first noticed the smell on June 5.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, UNCLE OF MISSING TODDLER: She said it started around that time, when two dead squirrels crawled up under the hood of the car, you know, and they died in there.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. A lot happening in the search for little Caylee. First of all, out to the lines. Raye in Florida. Hi, Raye.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love your show.

GRACE: Thank you, very much. What is your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`d like to know why George, Cindy and Lee aren`t taking a polygraph just to clear themselves.

GRACE: Excellent question. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, child advocate Susan Moss, defense attorney Jason Oshins, defense attorney and author of "Prosecutorial Misconduct" Joe Lawless. What about it Jason Oshins?

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Listen, it`s not to their advantage.

GRACE: Why? They`re not charged with anything.

OSHINS: It`s not admissible. It`s only going to hurt them and...

GRACE: We know it`s not admissible. That`s not what Raye in Florida asked you.

OSHINS: Yes, but it`s not going to help. There`s nothing good that`s going to come of it no matter how it`s administered or how it`s tailored (ph).

GRACE: Susan, agree?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: If they have nothing to hide, they should come forward and help find the remains of this little precious girl.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I know she`s alive and I know she`s out there. She is coming home.

She is leading you to a place, but she is not telling you the exact right location to which apartment it is, because she is afraid if someone walks in that something may happen to Caylee.

My daughter may have some mistruths out there, or half truths, but she is not a murderer.

There was a bag of pizza for, what, 12 days in the back of the car full of maggots it stunk so bad.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Cindy, but these dogs are trained to find dead bodies, Cindy.

ANTHONY: The same dog that cleared our house, cleared them. There is no evidence that Casey has ever done anything to harm her child. She lived with me for three years. I`ve never seen anything.

She is not dead. We still believe firmly that Caylee is alive. We have a tip now Coral Spring, Florida that Caylee is alive. Until I hear it from the authorities, it`s just -- it is what it is. It`s a bag of whatever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Yes, obviously, Cindy Anthony is ignoring the obvious. She`s in denial. Clearly, she`s defending her daughter. But can you imagine being hounded by the media every day, every night, like a pack of hyenas, chasing you up the sidewalk?

Out to the lines, Suzie in New Mexico. Hi, Suzie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call.

GRACE: No, thank you for calling in. What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, if this car smelled so horribly bad like, by all accounts it did, wouldn`t it have been noticeable to her boyfriend and other people, and how could she stand driving around in it?

GRACE: Well, you know, she abandoned the car.

Out to Nikki Pierce. I don`t know that the boyfriend ever smelled the car. Wasn`t she waiting outside the car with groceries in her hands when he showed up?

NIKKI PIERCE, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes, when he showed up to rescue her from the supposedly -- that she ran out of gas when she abandoned the car at the Amscot parking lot. She was standing outside with groceries in her car so he never got near it.

And when she was returning the gas cans and so on to her father that she supposedly stole, she wouldn`t let him near the trunk, either. So by all accounts, she tried to keep everyone away from it.

GRACE: To Crystal in Delaware, hi, Crystal.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I absolutely love your show. I watch it every night.

GRACE: Thank you, dear. And thank you for calling in. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, with all of the sightings they had of Caylee in the United States, has anyone gone down to Puerto Rico and checked the sightings out down there?

GRACE: Excellent question.

Out to you, Natisha Lance, our reporter on the case from the very beginning. What about in Puerto Rico?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, in Puerto Rico, Cindy did do an interview on Univision Television to get the word out out there in Puerto Rico, but also the private investigator who has been working with them has been following up on all tips, all leads that are coming from all over the country, as well as Puerto Rico.

GRACE: So back to you, Leonard Padilla, when are you set for your polygraph everybody is talking about?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, SEARCHING FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Well, Friday, I spoke to the agent there, Nick Savage, and he said that his polygrapher was on vacation or something this week.

GRACE: Well, there`s more than one, FYI.

PADILLA: Well, no -- I don`t know. I mean he told me that the guy that does the -- the polygraph test there was gone and would be back either Tuesday or Wednesday. And I hinted that maybe he wants to cover my expenses while I stayed past the weekend. And then he said no, well, we can go out to California, and do them out there.

And the thought came to my mind that I`d call Don King and maybe have the polygraph test done on pay-per-view and make some money to go back and resume the hunt.

GRACE: Boy, you really are something. OK. I will just leave it at that, Padilla, because at least -- no matter what anybody says about you, at least, whatever the motivation is, you`re out there hunting. You`re doing something. Everybody else is sitting on their duff, all right? So you`ve got that going to you.

To Mark Smith, polygrapher -- polygraph expert with New Jersey Polygraphist -- Mark Smith, how reliable do you believe polygraphs are?

MARK SMITH, POLYGRAPH EXPERT, V.P. NJ POLYGRAPHISTS: It doesn`t matter what I believe, Nancy.

GRACE: Yes, well, that`s what I asked you.

SMITH: The Department of Defense has done testing over 20 years, and they`ve shown that for specific-issue polygraph tests, it`s well over 90 percent. That`s the good news. The other good news, it`s the only method of lie detection that there is today.

GRACE: You know what? That was an excellent answer. You know, you beat me at my own game. Why should somebody take a polygraph, such as the Anthony family?

SMITH: Nancy, look at the -- what would the average person do? If somebody`s child disappeared or the wife disappeared, they don`t want the police suspecting them. The first thing they should do is, if the police ask, or even if they don`t, volunteer, get that out of the way so that they can focus their resources where it should go.

GRACE: I always point out -- let me go to Joe Lawless, defense attorney and author of "Prosecutorial Misconduct." Joe, great to see you again. Joe, I always point out Marc Klaas, because when his daughter Polly went missing, the first thing he said to police was polygraph me, don`t waste time on me. I`ll give you anything you want, go search for Polly.

Why isn`t the Anthony family doing that? And then as much as everybody seems to hate Padilla, he`s ready to take a poly?

JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "PROSECUTORIAL MISCONDUCT": Well, I think you`ve got to hand it to Leonard Padilla because there`s offensive polygraphs and defensive polygraphs.

I would never advise a client to do it, only because I think a polygraph is only as good as the person interpreting the results. It doesn`t detect lies or truths. You know it detects bodily responses to questions that I ask.

GRACE: Which are proven to respond when you`re lying. Yes.

LAWLESS: But it`s also.

GRACE: It determines body temperature, sweat, heartbeat. Yes, it detects all of that.

LAWLESS: Cold, stress, anxiety. All of that. I think it`s an investigative tool when someone who is in a position like Marc Klaas was, who comes forward and says, yes, give me a polygraph, because that suggests they believe in their own innocence.

GRACE: But why aren`t the Anthonys taking one? Padilla is ready to take one.

LAWLESS: Well, because at this point I think the police in Florida are -- the police who are involved in the search for Caylee are as much looking for suspects in a murder as they are Caylee. And I think they`re trying to find anyone they can.

I wouldn`t advise them to take it right now, because I don`t know how those results would be interpreted. It`s way too -- I think it`s way too far out in the investigation to let someone in their position do it. I wouldn`t advise them to do it.

GRACE: I want to talk very quickly about the possibility that the tot mom may have to finally speak from behind bars. Certainly not to police. But remember Zenaida Gonzalez, the woman that tot mom accused of kidnapping little Caylee? It turns out she had never even any of the Anthony family?

Well, her lawyer is set to take a deposition under oath, behind bars, of the tot mom.

Unleash the lawyers. Susan Moss, Jason Oshins, Joe Lawless.

Susan Moss, will it work? All she`ll do is take the Fifth Amendment.

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: She may not, because she doesn`t think -- she may not think she is guilty of anything. This -- with this deposition, she is going to need more than the neighbor`s shovel to dig herself out of this one.

GRACE: Jason, is there anything you can say to top that?

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy. I don`t think it`s going to happen as quickly as us and the media would like it to happen, just for the -- you know, the sensationalism. There is a lot more legal maneuvering that`s going to go into this before that ever goes down.

GRACE: Well, Joe lawless, I don`t think it`s going to happen. Because when you know that the -- the person you`re deposing is going to take the Fifth, why would you go ahead and go behind bars?

I mean, she is looking at a murder trial. Why should she go under oath, and for a deposition?

LAWLESS: She shouldn`t, and she won`t. And I think the fact she filed a counterclaim suggests that whoever filed the counterclaim wasn`t thinking. Anyone in her situation should not be giving depositions.

GRACE: No way. No way is she going to give a deposition. I`m surprised the attorney even said it. But I guess he`s got to get it on record.

Let`s go to Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, famed forensic scientist out of the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He is a consultant on the Casey Anthony defense team. You heard what Lee had to say about Oak Ridge Laboratories, the Body Farm. Do you agree or disagree?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, CONSULTANT TO CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Well, I too am a very good friend of Bill Bass. Let me just say this. The conclusion of their report on air sampling says that it could be human decomposition. It does not say that it is.

That tells me it could be a lot of other things, which apparently is what Doctor Lee is saying.

GRACE: But it is decomposition. That is confirmed. They just don`t know whether it`s human or animal.

KOBILINSKY: That`s -- that is correct.

GRACE: You know, every time you give me an answer, you leave out a little fact, like that big study you told me about, how half of all of the cars searched turned up with chloroform in the trunk. And then I found out only one car turned up with chloroform in the trunk.

KOBILINSKY: Yes, one out of two and the fact that.

GRACE: Yes, I can`t believe you`re actually reiterating it.

KOBILINSKY: Well, the fact that there`s a car with chloroform tells us that that is possible.

GRACE: And, and is what was the amount, the percentage of chloroform in that car?

KOBILINSKY: Well, the fact that it`s there tells us.

GRACE: Negligible, negligible, as opposed to highly saturated in Casey Anthony`s car.

KOBILINSKY: Well, the fact that it was there tells us it can form in a vehicle.

GRACE: I hope you don`t jump up at trial with that one, Kobe.

To Brian Reich, the deputy chief at the Bergen County Sheriff`s Office, Padilla is about to take a polygraph. Have you ever seen law enforcement or a bounty hunter take a polygraph?

BRIAN REICH, DEPUTY CHIEF, BERGEN COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: I haven`t seen a bounty hunter take a polygraph, but I`ve got to tell you, it`s certainly applicable that he should be taking a polygraph. I mean he`s using the media to get a lot of publicity. And if I was running this investigation, I would certainly want him to take one.

GRACE: Are you suggesting that he planted the evidence?

REICH: I`m not suggesting that, but I`m saying I would definitely want him to take a polygraph if I was running this investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY: There is still a chance she`s out there living and breathing. All I`m asking is that everybody gives Caylee that chance and actually continue to look for her. So until they can prove to me 100 percent otherwise, until all the evidence comes in and I actually know what the evidence is, and satisfied in my mind that she is not out there, I`m not going to let her go as long as I have a breath in my body.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DEREK ARMSTRONG, AUTHOR OF "DREW PETERSON EXPOSED": Drew, on Wednesday I`m releasing a story that you`re meeting a lawyer to divorce Stacy. Can you confirm this?

DREW PETERSON, HUSBAND OF MISSING MOTHER STACY PETERSON: No comment.

ARMSTRONG: No denial either?

PETERSON: No nothing.

ARMSTRONG: When I interviewed you for "Drew Peterson Exposed," you mentioned that you would seek a divorce on the one year anniversary, you mentioned it was important to move out of Bolling Brook?

PETERSON: I might have said that.

ARMSTRONG: I have a confirmation that you have an appointment with high profile lawyer.

PETERSON: So?

ARMSTRONG: Who specializes in pre and post-divorce proceedings.

PETERSON: Yes.

ARMSTRONG: You`re seeing him about a divorce?

PETERSON: I`m just getting information right now. I`m exploring options.

ARMSTRONG: On what basis? You said - you`ve said she`s a runaway, that she`s alive.

PETERSON: A desertion. She deserted me. I`ve always aid that I`m mad about that. But I`m looking into this for the kids. This neighborhood is not healthy for my kids because of Sharon Bykowski.

ARMSTRONG: So it`s about selling the house and moving away?

PETERSON: No comment.

ARMSTRONG: Meaning you don`t expect her to return?

PETERSON: Why would she return to all this?

ARMSTRONG: So you`ll sell the house?

PETERSON: No comment.

ARMSTRONG: What about the marital assets?

PETERSON: No comment.

ARMSTRONG: How far away would you move? You mentioned Kentucky and California in my previous interviews with you for "Drew Peterson Exposed."

PETERSON: Out of the neighborhood is important for the kids. Some of the people around here are nuts.

ARMSTRONG: So Kentucky sounds good?

PETERSON: Anywhere sounds good.

ARMSTRONG: Do you expect a not guilty verdict? I released some information to the media on your mock trial for the gun trial where five found you guilty.

PETERSON: Thirteen not guilty.

ARMSTRONG: So then you`d be free to move out of Illinois if you`re found not guilty.

PETERSON: No comment.

ARMSTRONG: Do you think the story of this divorce might encourage Stacy to contact you?

PETERSON: I have nothing more to say.

ARMSTRONG: What about the rumors that the state`s attorney is getting ready to indict for homicide on one of your wives?

PETERSON: I told you. Nothing to say.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: OK. He is facing felony gun charges and a possible homicide charge, and he says the neighbors are the nuts? So he has got to move away from them? OK. That`s former cop turned suspect in his wife`s disappearance, Drew Peterson. You heard him speaking with Derek Armstrong, the author of "Drew Peterson Exposed," a pretty telling expose` of Drew Peterson.

And with me tonight is Derek Armstrong. He is seeking a divorce, it`s apparent. Why, so he can liquidate all of the assets and get out of dodge?

ARMSTRONG: Absolutely, Nancy, that seems to be the case.

GRACE: And I guess the police are just going to twiddle their thumbs and let it happen?

ARMSTRONG: Well, he seems to think they`re always twiddling their thumbs, I think.

GRACE: On what grounds could he actually divorce Stacy Peterson? I guess he`ll show her and divorce her without her being there.

ARMSTRONG: Yes, under Illinois law, according to my research, he can apply under desertion. He`s claiming she ran away, that she hasn`t been around for a year. I think you have to wait a year.

GRACE: What can you tell us about a mock jury that was created at the University of Illinois regarding the pending gun charge?

ARMSTRONG: I obtained some documents on the mock trial with -- they had 18 jurors who are paid, I think, $50 each. And I obtained the questionnaires afterwards, which indicated their verdicts and what they believed, how they believed the defense did on the presentation and also the prosecution.

GRACE: And what was their verdict?

ARMSTRONG: Five found him guilty, 13 not guilty. All of them said they were not swayed by his involvement or, pardon me, the investigation on his wives. And that they were solely based on -- basing their analysis -- their verdicts on the -- the case presented, which was vindictive prosecution as a defense.

GRACE: With me is Derek Armstrong, the author of "Drew Peterson Exposed."

Kathy Chaney, with the "Chicago Defender," quickly, what more can you tell me?

KATHY CHANEY, REPORTER, CHICAGO DEFENDER, COVERING STORY: Pretty much just as Derek said that you do have to wait for about a year for abandonment in order for you to try to file for divorce. He had said previously that, you know, he was looking to move away, but, you know, he can`t do that right now.

And Stacy`s name is on some of the property, including the house. So that would be impossible for him to do with her still around, with him still married. So right now, it does point that he is looking to get a divorce.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Susan Moss, Jason Oshins, both out of New York, Joe Lawless out of Philadelphia.

Susan, what do you think?

MOSS: Giving this guy a divorce is like giving Hannibal Lecter steak sauce. But there is good news, because in Illinois there is very broad discovery rules. So if he wants to go and claim desertion, that is going to open up depositions, all types of discovery instruments to find out what happened to Stacy.

GRACE: What about it, Joe Lawless?

LAWLESS: My question would be, who would take the discovery? If she`s abandoned, they`re going to file an affidavit that they tried to serve her, couldn`t find her, there is no one representing Stacy. I think he gets a divorce, unless the judge wants to stay it, pending the murder investigation.

GRACE: Well, Jason Oshins, what would happen with her share of all of the assets?

OSHINS: Well, depending upon if there is a will or not, an administrator can be appointed for her assets, and they can be distributed either to the children, or whoever is named in the will. If there is no will.

GRACE: She has to be declared dead.

OSHINS: Yes, it`s -- well.

GRACE: But if the children get her share of the assets, he`ll get his mitts on it.

OSHINS: Yes, they`re going to declare her dead one way or another, either by the murder investigation, or by a civil finding based on the abandonment.

GRACE: To Derek Armstrong, who wrote "Drew Peterson Exposed," do you truly believe that murder charges are coming down?

ARMSTRONG: I actually do believe in the case of Kathleen Savio that there is an indictment case coming down. I have no evidence of that, it`s just that the hearsay law in Illinois would apply more to that case.

GRACE: And the legislature has changed the hearsay law. And how will that, in a nutshell, help prosecutors that are prosecuting Drew Peterson?

ARMSTRONG: I believe because of a couple of pieces of hearsay, one was Kathleen Savio`s letter indicating that if something happened to her, that Drew did it. And the other would be Pastor Scorey`s hearsay testimony that Stacy told him that Drew had killed Kathleen.

GRACE: To Brian Reich, do you find it suspicious that he wants a divorce?

REICH: Yes, I certainly do. I mean, if your spouse ran off and left you, you would think you`d want to cherish that memory and not end it and not have it final. So if I was investigating this crime I would definitely find that suspicious and want to put a lot more efforts into it.

GRACE: That hearsay rule about to pass the Illinois House is expected to pass, and very quickly, to Dr. Janet Taylor, psychiatrist, what do you make of him being so audacious as to speak a divorce when he`s suspected of killing her?

DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, clearly in his mind either she`s gone or not coming back. And I think, again, it seems like he`s just not thinking about the children. They`ve had a major loss. And now even if he files for divorce, you know how traumatic that is to a family. So he`s got to think about the welfare of his kids.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ARMSTRONG: Do you expect a not guilty verdict? I released some information to the media on your mock trial for the gun trial where five found you guilty.

PETERSON: Thirteen not guilty.

ARMSTRONG: So then you`d be free to move out of Illinois if you`re found not guilty.

PETERSON: No comment.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: You know what, there ought to be a law. Can`t you see all that money being funneled away to Turks & Caicos somewhere, Susan Moss?

MOSS: It`s possible but a smart judge will reserve the issue of equitable distribution and the division of marital property.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Angie in Virginia. Hi, Angie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Uhm.

GRACE: Yes?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sorry. I was wondering if they ever asked somebody like Tim Miller to search for Stacy.

GRACE: What do we know, Kathy Chaney? What type of searches have gone on?

CHANEY: You know what, nothing too much lately. It`s just pretty much like the water searches, air searches. But there hasn`t been a vigorous search lately at all.

GRACE: But there were very vigorous searches when she went missing, correct?

CHANEY: When she went missing, yes. They did.

GRACE: Yes.

CHANEY: In the water, in the air, but lately, nothing too much.

GRACE: To Dana in Washington, hi, Dana.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: What`s your question, love?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Since the third wife was re-ruled as a homicide, can`t the family of this woman take him to court and sue him for death or wrong suit just like the Goldmans did for O.J. Simpson?

GRACE: Aren`t they doing that, Derek Armstrong?

ARMSTRONG: Yes, I believe they have retained a lawyer in New York.

GRACE: Yes. I think they have. And it remains to be seen what will become of it.

Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Joseph Ford, 23, Knox, Indiana, killed Iraq. Left studies at University Southern Indiana to deploy. Loved history, fencing, Greek and Roman mythology, studying the medieval period. Leaves behind grieving parents Sam and Darlene, widow Karen.

Joseph Ford, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

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