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NANCY GRACE

Evidence at Anthony Home Reportedly Tied to Remains Location

Aired December 17, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, "ISSUES": Incredible! Nancy has the very latest in the Caylee Anthony case. NANCY GRACE starts right now.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. We are waiting for a formal announcement, expected at any moment, officially declaring a child`s remains to be that of little Caylee.

At this hour, police and forensic experts still on the scene for skeletal remains believed to be Caylee found in a heavily-wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home, reports that experts now working off a tooth and a hair found at the scene, this after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag and a human skull, a tiny human skull, literally rolls out, the skull apparently covered in long, light-colored hair, still intact because of thick industrial duct tape wrapped around the child`s tiny head.

And contrary to what police earlier said, clothes were found inside the trash bag. Is this why cops are so sure it`s Caylee? Deputies still - - repeat, still -- digging, searching, even sifting through buckets of dirt for more remains. We have confirmed tiny bones still being found scattered along the same location as the skull.

Tonight, bombshell. Reports surface items seized during a late night search of the Anthony home now positively linked to evidence at the crime scene. What was found in or around that trash bag? Late reports confirm little Caylee`s sheets were seized by police. Why?

The jailhouse calls in a local pastor to speak with the tot mom behind bars as the case closes in around her. Federal experts still working around the clock to ID the child`s remains at the FBI lab, Quantico. And what has become of grandparents George and Cindy`s request for complete immunity? Tonight, are these scattered remains all that`s left of little Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking developments in the case of 3-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators say the FBI`s evidence response team and county CSI workers are still finding evidence in the palmettos, brush and dirt that they piled up along the road.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to reports, something found inside the Anthony home during an execution of a search warrant has been linked to evidence found at the remains site, which is less than half a mile from the home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We continue to make additional discoveries here at the site, continue to gather that information, gather that property and continue to label and properly address that in order that it can be booked into our evidence section and continue to process the scene.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Detectives have not revealed what the evidence is, but were initially led to the Anthony home after significant findings were made in the area where the skull and other bones were found.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This site is going to dictate the importance of what we`ve recovered, how much we`ve recovered and the determination by our investigators, the crime scene technicians, as well as the experts in their disciplines coming in, speaking with our investigating and making the determination how much longer do they need to go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As investigators continue to sift through dirt for more physical evidence, tot mom Casey Anthony remains behind bars, awaiting her trial on capital murder.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pastor Shane Stutzman has been meeting with mother Casey Anthony since she was first arrested in July, a month after anyone last saw her daughter, Caylee, alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) specifics (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: While the Pastor Stutzman says he`s bound to keep secrets Casey may tell him confidential, he admits she needs all the help she can get.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Stunning details continue to emerge from the crime scene.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New details emerge in the case of missing 3-year- old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. Items seized from the Anthony home have reportedly been linked to evidence discovered at the scene where a skull and other remains were found.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are continuing to sift through the wooded area and recovering significant finds.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators executed a search warrant at the home after something of interest found at the remains site led them to the home, less than half a mile from where the remains were discovered. Investigators continue to search the area for clues, looking through dirt and branches at the scene for additional evidence. A sheriff`s office spokesperson says that authorities plan to stay at the active crime scene until at least tomorrow.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We expected that it might have been late this afternoon that this scene might have been able to be cleared. As we continue to discover items on the scene, we will continue to hold the scene.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meanwhile, the Orange County medical examiner and FBI forensic experts continue testing on the remains, hoping to get an official identification any moment.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony received a visit from her pastor yesterday and maintains her innocence in her daughter`s disappearance.

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: Dad, I can`t care about all this other stuff. I mean, I don`t care about the media. I don`t care about what people have been saying about me. That doesn`t matter because I know it`s not true and everyone that knows me knows it isn`t true. All I want is Caylee home, but I want to be there when she comes home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. What`s the latest?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, the latest is we`re waiting for this press conference where Orange County detectives are going to tell us who these remains belong to. You know, what they said they`re going to do is they`ll tell the parents. Immediately after that, they`ll hold a press conference. They did hold a press conference this afternoon, and everybody`s waiting on pins and needles, thinking that this is the one. It turned out that it wasn`t.

Also, we got confirmation today that items at the crime scene have been connected to the house. So there is some connection between the house and this crime scene. Also, the state confirmed today that there was clothing found at that crime scene inside that plastic trash bag where the remains were also found.

GRACE: And Natisha Lance, standing by at the location where the remains were discovered, what can you tell me about a sheet of little Caylee`s bed being taken from the Anthony home during that late-night search?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, I spoke to the former spokesperson, Michelle Bart (ph), today, and she told me there were previous reports saying that pillow cases were taken from the home. She said, actually, no pillow cases were taken from the home. All of them have been accounted for. However, Caylee`s sheets were taken from the home in that search by police.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. Why? Why the sheets off Caylee`s bed?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, Nancy, there had been talk that the body had been wrapped in a sheet inside that plastic bag. There also could be some kind of trace evidence, try to match that up. You can look on the label of the sheet, go back and find out where it was purchased, when it was purchased.

You know, this could be a big break in this case, you know, but we`re just still awaiting, number one, the identification from the FBI lab in Quantico, and now they`re also working on building that homicide case against Casey Anthony.

GRACE: And Nikki Pierce with WDBO, what can you tell me about the jailhouse calling in a pastor to meet with the tot mom behind bars?

NIKKI PIERCE, WDBO: Well, as we heard, when she first heard the information on Thursday, she -- according to some sources, she had a bit of a meltdown and requested a sedative. She was just removed from psychological observation, which we hear is not the same as a suicide watch. But when she was, the first day that she was removed from that psychological observation, they called in a pastor from the church where they`ve been holding the vigils for little Caylee every week.

GRACE: And I want to clarify something, Nikki Pierce. The tot mom did not request a pastor to come. The jail asked for him to come, correct?

PIERCE: Correct. That`s correct.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, Renee Rockwell, veteran defense attorney, and Mickey Sherman, famed defense attorney out of LA tonight, the author of "How Can You Defend Those People?" The pastor has already made statements to the press, none of them divulging what the tot mom said behind bars. But I`m telling you, Mickey Sherman, there`s no way she cracked and told the preacher anything.

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, we should -- we`re not going to know it and we`re not supposed to know it. There`s a priest-penitent privilege. When you talk to a priest or a pastor, it`s not supposed to be divulged to anybody, authorities or anyone else. That`s the obligation of the pastor.

GRACE: Renee?

SHERMAN: And if he does it...

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s right. It is the pastor`s obligation, but the pastor cannot waive that. The only person that can waive that privilege is the defendant, Nancy.

GRACE: We are waiting for a formal announcement expected at any moment, officially declaring these remains to be those of little Caylee. Reports surfacing from the location that experts are currently working off a tooth and a hair found at the scene.

Now, in an unusual twist -- back to Natisha Lance, our producer there at the location -- it turns out this was a frequent hang-out of Casey Anthony`s. In fact, she used this area as a pet cemetery.

LANCE: That`s correct, Nancy. According to her friend, Kio Marie (ph), this is a place that they actually called "the zone," and they would go hang out there, eat, hang out with friends, possibly smoke. And she said that this is a place where Casey actually went and buried her hamster and kids in the neighborhood would use this area as a pet cemetery of sorts.

GRACE: I`m going to go to a special guest joining me tonight, Dr. Joshua Perper, chief medical examiner out of Broward County. He is the author of "When to Call the Doctor." Dr. Perper, thank you for being with us.

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER, BROWARD COUNTY: You`re welcome.

GRACE: Do you believe the medical examiner will determine that this is, in fact, a homicide? And why?

PERPER: Well, that`s my opinion, that he will do so in view of the fact that the body or the skeletonized remains show this tape on the face, which clearly indicated that the child was assaulted. And therefore, she had this tape when she was alive and when she died and after that. So this, in conjunction with a circumstantial story, with the lies of the mother, with the proximity of finding the body so close to the house, and the additional evidence, I think that amounts to a clear evidence of homicide. And I`m sure that the medical examiner would make that determination.

GRACE: A very important question, Dr. Perper. Would the skeletonization of the remains be consistent with the time the child disappeared? Can you look at the degree of skeletonization and determine when the child was dumped, when this body was dumped?

PERPER: Yes, it`s possible to do it within a reasonable range of time. And in this particular case, we know for sure when the child disappeared. So that`s going to be quite -- quite feasible and relatively easy.

GRACE: And to Natisha Lance, standing by where the remains were located. In court, it was stated that a portion of these bones would be macerated. Explain.

LANCE: Yes. It was indicated that three inches of these bones would actually end up being destroyed so that they could do the toxicology testing, and the maceration process would also go into that.

GRACE: And isn`t it true, in maceration, any flesh or soft tissue would be taken off the bone, Natisha?

LANCE: That is correct. However, the county attorney said that if there is any flesh on these bones, they will be -- go through this maceration process.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: We`ve got to get that little girl back in any way we can. And we`re doing everything we can.

CASEY ANTHONY: My only concern -- I gave Lee a statement. I want him to speak to whoever, the media, give them a statement specifically from me. He`s going to give them an exact quote. She`s my only concern.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: They can take our whole house down. They can level it. They can dig a big hole. I don`t care what they want. Caylee`s not there.

GEORGE ANTHONY: You want to take the shingles off the roof, I don`t care. You do what you need to do to bring my granddaughter back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Items seized from the Anthony home have reportedly been linked to evidence discovered at the scene where a skull and other remains were found.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An attorney for the Anthonys says the family is waiting for that absolute confirmation and praying, even though all signs point that it`s Caylee Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "The last six months have been the hardest six months of our lives, and we understand that the ongoing investigation and prosecution of our daughter, Casey, will consume our lives with conflict."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) from the beginning, we`ve been very thorough with this. And whoever this child may be -- and of course, we`re all assuming that it`s Caylee -- and, you know, that we want to be thorough and we want to make sure that we do things right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: As we go to air tonight, we are awaiting a press conference, officially declaring these remains to be that of little Caylee Anthony, the remains found just 15 homes -- 15 homes away from where the Anthonys live.

I want to go back to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO radio. We know they have a skull. We know that hair is attached with duct tape. That is enough to make a positive ID on dental records alone. What are they waiting on?

PETRIMOULX: It`s hard to say exactly what they`re doing there, but we also -- I`d like to add that there`s been reports that they`re also using a tooth from the scene that they found, along with the hair, and they`re using all that at the FBI labs to try to make an ID on this body. Like you said, we`re expecting this press conference any second now. It could happen tomorrow. They said that they`ll be at the scene still tomorrow. But you know, any time they call a press conference, that could be it.

GRACE: I want to go to Marc Klaas, the founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. He is a victims` rights advocate and a friend of our show. He is also a crime victim. His daughter, Polly, went missing of her own home many years ago and was murdered.

Marc Klaas, thank you for being with us. Marc, a lot of people have suggested the police somehow screwed up because the body was so close to the home and they didn`t find it. I disagree. What`s your take?

MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, my take is probably very similar to yours. When they were told about that location where the body was ultimately found, that this was some place that Casey used to like to hang out, they went to that area, and it was covered in water. And in fact, they brought cadaver dogs to that area then and later in September. But still, there was too much water covering the area, so the cadaver dogs were unable to get a positive hit.

Now, I would further suggest that if they had been more aggressive in their search for evidence in that area, and if they had, say, dredged that particular area, they could have easily destroyed the very fragile evidence that ultimately is going to resolve the case. So I think that law enforcement and all of the search teams that were involved have done exactly the right thing.

GRACE: Well, Marc, I think the evidence is bearing out what you`re just pointing out is correct because if they are truly working off one tooth, that means that the remains have been so scattered, all the other teeth are missing, they have not been found, if that report is correct.

And to Natisha Lance, standing by at that location, what can you tell me about clothing in the bag?

LANCE: Well, according to a report, there was clothing found in the bag. Now, this is very contradictory to what Sheriff Kevin Beary had said a few days ago, saying that there was no clothing, but this new report says that there was clothing actually found in this bag.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who`s been on the case from the beginning, actually helped to look for little Caylee. He is also there at the location where the skull was found. Weigh in, Leonard.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, the clothing, according to my understanding, was a small swimsuit and part of a dress. Now, one of the other things that`s happened is the little critters have gotten in there and they`ve torn the bag. They`ve taken the little bones and everything and scattered them over an area that`s probably three quarter of an acre to an acre.

And the thing about it is, like Marc just said, it`s a good thing they called off any further searching in there or any dredging because it`s bad enough that the animals have scattered the remains. One of the things that they do in a situation like this is they want to get as many of the remains because eventually, the body will be turned over to the family and they don`t want to just have a couple of bones that they did DNA testing on and forget about the rest of it. They want to do a complete job.

And that`s what they`re doing. They`re being very, very methodical about it. And sometimes, like the spokesperson for Baez, who doesn`t obviously know what`s going on out here -- they make comments about the sheriff taking too long or they`re digging too deep a hole, or something like that. He doesn`t understand they`ve got 40 people back there. They know what they`re doing. They`re very precise.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Brandy in Michigan. Hi, Brandy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question was, over the last week or so, there has been a lot of talk about sheets and pillow cases and brushes being seized from the home. Right after that, the grandparents asked for immunity. Has anyone said anything about maybe duct tape being found in the home that could match the duct tape wrapped around the skull?

GRACE: Drew Petrimoulx, don`t you imagine that`s one of the things police were searching for?

PETRIMOULX: Right. And we know they removed a bunch of items from the house. It`s interesting, also, that came out today, is a Facebook posting that came from Casey Anthony to her friend, Amy Huizinga. It happened on May 26. I`ll read to you word for word. It says, "You lost my duct tape. I was excited to have so much left. That`s why I" -- I think she meant that`s what I get for giving you my purse.

So it`s another interesting thing. She was talking about duct tape on that day. Is that the same duct tape that was found at this scene? You know, we`re just waiting to see.

GRACE: OK. To psychologist Caryn Stark. How many red flags does she have to wave at me before I demand the state seek the death penalty? Here she is going on Facebook, talking about duct tape?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Nancy, I mean, it`s not just even that. It`s all the other things that they`re finding and the fact that this woman has just been denying everything that happened. So this is truly the signs of somebody who`s guilty, and I think that`s what you`re recognizing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY: Hey, gorgeous, how`re you doing?

CASEY ANTHONY: I look like hell!

GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, you know something? You really need to keep your spirit high for all this.

CASEY ANTHONY: I have. I haven`t been crying while I`ve been in here.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, you know something?

CASEY ANTHONY: Trying to read books and do other things to keep my mind off of stuff.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

911 OPERATOR: 911, what`s your emergency?

CINDY ANTHONY: I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month!

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I know my mom will never forgive me. I`m never going to forgive myself because there`s that chance that I might not see Caylee again, and I don`t want to think about that.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An Orange County water meter reader went into the wooded area just off the road to go to the bathroom and stumbled upon a child`s remains. He saw a plastic bag, picked it up and the child`s skull rolled out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: In my gut, she`s still OK, and it still feels like she`s -- she`s close to home.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: And in my hand, just released is a press release by the defense camp, criticizing police for not rushing the scene and getting out of there so they can come in. You know, that`s really the last thing the sheriffs need at this point, Leonard Padilla.

PADILLA: Well, one of the things that I`ve maintained is that this department is one of the top 10 I`ve ever run into. And you`ve got to say that John Allen has knowledge of how to do this. Whatever the spokesperson for Baez`s defense team is saying, he`s wrong. The man that`s in charge of this here is John Allen. He`s doing a great job. He`s not rushing it because if he rushed it, then somebody would say, Well, you know, we found a bone afterwards.

GRACE: You know, to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. What do you make with these ridiculous announcements from the defense? Trying to rush them? They`re out there trying to find every tiny bone, every tooth, every scintilla of evidence linked to Caylee.

BROOKS: Oh, it`s ridiculous, Nancy. It`s just -- it`s just a ploy on them. I used to be one of the team leaders for the team that`s out there right now, the FBI`s evidence response team, and I can tell you, there is no hurry. We take our time. We do the right thing, dot all the T`s (SIC) and cross all the -- dot all the I`s and cross all the T`s, Nancy, period.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your gut feeling up until this point is something is not right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Actually, it`s June 16th. That`s the last time that I saw my daughter and granddaughter.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there has been a dead body in the damn car.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I got arrested on a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) whim today. Because they blamed me for stuff that I never would do, that I didn`t do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We had someone call us and tell us a shovel was borrowed on a day that -- in close proximity to where the child missing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Someone has researching how to make chloroform on Casey Anthony`s home computer around the time Caylee went missing. Lab tests have shown high levels of chloroform in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car.

UNIDENTIIFED MALE: We had high hopes of finding her alive, and that hope is somewhat diminished.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love her dearly, and I want nothing more than for her to come home and to be safe. And to be where she belongs, with her family.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Orange County utilities emergency dispatch. We`ve found a human skull.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my gosh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know.

And it`s right off of Suburban and Chickasaw in the Caylee Anthony area.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the first time Casey has had an anxiety attack, and asked for sedatives.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wish none of this would have ever happened. I really wish that none of this would have ever happened.

(END VIDOE CLIP)

GRACE: We are waiting for a formal announcement, as we go to air tonight, that these remains are Littlecaylee. By now, certainly dental records or even DNA matches may have been made. We are waiting for that press conference to go down. We expect it at any moment, officially declaring this to be Littlecaylee.

At that time, we also predict a reevaluation by the district attorney`s office as to whether they will seek the death penalty in this case. The child`s skull found with hair still attached, bound in thick industrial-strength duct tape. Just 15 homes away from the Anthony home. I want to go out to the lawyers. We`re taking your calls live. To Renee Rockwell, Atlanta. Mickey Sherman, L.A.

Could you explain to me, first to you, Mickey Sherman, apparently the grandparents are still sticking with the nanny did it story? Zani the Nanny, Zenaida Gonzalez. How is it that Zani the Nanny got into the home, got the child`s sheet, wrapped her up in it, and then buried her, coincidentally, in the same place that mom Casey Anthony buried her pets?

SHERMAN: Well, they don`t know. And they don`t have to know. They don`t have to give the answers. All they know is that their granddaughter is missing, their granddaughter is under indictment for murder, and they`re beside themselves.

GRACE: I`m not talking about the grandparents. I`m talking about you as a defense attorney in this case. How do you explain that? The some other dude did it theory.

SHERMAN: Well, I`ll answer that with a question. How do we know that someone else didn`t move that body into the area where the body was found, because the body -- the area had been searched. And as you pointed out earlier, it had been under water. But I think most of the scientists are telling you that a cadaver dog will find and can find the remains of a body while it`s under water. So that may mean that body was moved there while she was incarcerated and that that`s pretty darn exculpatory evidence.

GRACE: You know, Mickey, I admire what you just did. Renee, he completely avoided a question that a child may very well have been wrapped in a sheet from the Anthony home which means the killer had to go in the home, get the sheet, get a trash bag, most likely, from the home, we don`t know that yet. And then bury the child there where Casey Anthony buries her pets.

ROCKWELL: But does that mean that Casey did it?

GRACE: Yeah.

ROCKWELL: What we`re saying so far, does that exclude every other possibility that somebody else might be involved?

GRACE: Hold on. What other reasonable possibility is there? Give me one other reasonable hypothesis.

No! No!

Renee, I want you to answer that. You brought it up. One other reasonable hypothesis.

ROCKWELL: What if, just for example, the brother did it?

GRACE: The brother was not -- no. The brother was not last seen with Caylee. The mother was. The mother is the one that came up with this zany Zani the Nanny did it. Not the brother.

ROCKWELL: Well, first of all, she doesn`t need to be saying anything, because she doesn`t .

GRACE: That`s not my question.

ROCKWELL: Exactly. Let me answer.

GRACE: Try to stick to the question.

ROCKWELL: OK. But, Nancy, what I`m saying is, until they know exactly what happened, all they have is a homicide. There has to be some theory, not that just she is a liar and she is the mother and she was mad at her own mother. That does not a murder make.

GRACE: OK! OK!

I got that you`re not answering the question. Go ahead, quickly, Mickey.

SHERMAN: The Lindbergh Baby was taken from his home.

GRACE: Oh! You`re digging deep. How long ago was that?

SHERMAN: What`s the difference? The Lindbergh Baby was kidnapped from his home, wearing the clothes from the house, so obviously somebody in the house must have been connected. That`s the same logic. It could have been a stranger, it could have been a nut case out there, there`s a lot of strange people out there, there`s a lot of criminals out there.

GRACE:: You`re leaving out -- conveniently leaving out that the mom in this case was the last one seen with the child, and she`s the one that apparently made up a theory that the child was kidnapped by an imaginary nanny. We are taking your calls live. Out to Debbie. Hi, Debbie.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. My question is, up until it was announced that a body had been discovered, Leonard Padilla had posted a $250,000 reward. Once it started being reported that a body had been found, he announced the other night that he pulled that reward money. And I`m just wondering, did he pull the reward money because he thought that he was going to find the body first, and wouldn`t have to pay anyone the reward money?

GRACE: Leonard Padilla, you want to speak for yourself?

PADILLA: It sounds like Todd Black`s girlfriend made that call. There was a $50,000 reward for the body way back. I pulled the reward way back. It wasn`t 250. And the situation was such that the worker now in checking to see if he can receive some kind of reward or some kind of compensation, county workers are not allowed to get gifts, compensations or rewards. We have checked with several people here at the county. So the lady is wrong on all counts. And I`m still trying to figure out how to get him some reward without getting Sergeant Allen all over my butt.

GRACE: We are waiting right now for an announcement linking -- identifying these remains formally as those of Littlecaylee. Back to Drew Petrimoulx. What can you tell me, grandparents George and Cindy Anthony`s request for complete immunity? What`s become of that?

PETRIMOULX: Nothing further. Again, they said that they`re ready to make a new statement. They admitted to making, through their lawyer, and making conflicting statements. They said they`re going to come back, make true statements this time, and in return their asking for immunity.

GRACE: And what can you tell me, Nikki Pierce, about when the pastor came to the jail, and how long was he there?

PIERCE: He was there for about three hours. He came in the morning, from about 9:30 to just after 12:00.

GRACE: Joining us right now, Heather Walsh-Haney, forensic anthropologist from Florida Gulf Coast University. Professor, thank you for being with us. After almost six months in both rain and heat, is there any chance soft tissue will still be on the bones?

HEATHER WALSH-HANEY, FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGIST: Well, Nancy, if the remains were on the surface, we would have skeletonized remains anywhere from a week to 10 days. But when you have remains in an area where the water level rises and falls, you can still have soft tissue after many, many months.

GRACE: And what information can be gained solely from a skull, professor?

WALSH-HANEY: Oh, well, you can determine things like the age of the individual, especially with someone who is young and less than five, because you can look at the development of the teeth, so much so that you can narrow down the age just from someone that`s 2 to 2.5 or 3 or 3.5.

GRACE: Let`s go back to the scene where the remains were discovered. Standing by, Natisha Lance, our producer. They were there again, all day today. They have just recently packed up and headed home. They are not releasing the scene to the defense. When are they saying they will release the scene?

NATISHA LANCE, CNN HN PRODUCER: They`re saying that they`re planning to work through tomorrow, and possibly it could be released tomorrow. But at this point, it`s really kind of up in the air. They`re not giving anything definitive at this point as to when this scene will be released.

GRACE: And to Karen Stark, psychologist joining us out of New York, what does it say to you, if, in fact, this is Caylee, as we believe it to be, and the state of obviously going forward on murder one charges, that she buried the child where she buried pets?

KAREN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it shows you, Nancy, that she really doesn`t see a difference between her child and a pet. And we know that about her. That`s her personality, that she can`t have authentic feelings. Any time that you see her on television crying, it`s not to be believed. She went partying. Did the Lindberghs go partying when their child was missing?

GRACE: And very quickly back to Mark Klaas joining us out of San Francisco. Do you believe, Mark Klaas, that the state will reevaluate its decision regarding the death penalty?

KLAAS: Well, they should. I mean, if that body was -- if that -- if that little skull was surrounded by duct tape, that was obviously a premeditated act, and absolutely, absolutely they should go for the death penalty.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The FBI says it also found unusually high levels of chloroform, a potentially deadly substance, and the vapors coming from the carpet in Casey`s trunk. More than you would expect from normal human decomposition.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You guys don`t know. The person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s car is not my granddaughter!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When rain storms chase rain storms go over -- Papa, are you tired, papa?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you tired, papa?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know I would not let anything happen to my daughter. If I knew where she was, this wouldn`t be going on.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The whole United States is looking for Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know that, mom.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everything is looking for her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is your daughter in a better place?

UNIDENTFIED FEMALE: I hope she`s not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No more lies. What happened to Caylee?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Regardless of whether she is alive or passed away, we need to find Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re not concerned about them finding a dead body, because we believe she is alive.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It leaves my gut every day, stronger and stronger, I know we`re going to see Caylee. I know she is coming home. I can feel it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re concerned that we`re going to do whatever it takes to make sure we collect all of the proper evidence. Keep in mind that Mr. Baez will probably be the first one to say if we left and we left evidence behind there that it`s shoddy work. They just said that himself yesterday. So, no, we`re going to be here as long as it takes. We`re on our schedule and not on Mr. Baez`s schedule.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: While we were on air tonight, we have gotten a statement from the sheriff`s office there in Orange County, stating that this property, this location, is -- cannot be just released to the defense, as they are requesting. This is private property, and the owner must allow the defense to come on to that private property. We are taking your calls live, and we are waiting for a formal announcement, expected within the hour, that these remains are those of Littlecaylee. Straight to the lines. Tina in Pennsylvania. Hi, Tina.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. My question is, if the defense team and the Anthonys are trying to pin this on Zani or someone other than Casey, couldn`t the prosecution just take the hair that they found in the trunk of the car with the death ring and match it up to the hair that they -- that was recovered from the skull and if they`re an exact match, wouldn`t that automatically put Casey at that scene?

GRACE: Yes. Depending, Mary in Maryland, if the car was proven to be in the continuous possession of Casey Anthony. That`s a very interesting point, a very crucial point, at trial, Mark Klaas, because you`ve got to show that she was in control of that car, and Zani the Nanny that never borrowed the car. What do you make of the whole defense?

KLAAS: Well, I make very little of the defense. I think that what we`re going to find multiple crime scenes here. There is a crime scene at home, there is a crime scene in the car, there`s a crime scene certainly they location where they found the little girl. But, you know, Nancy, when we were looking for Polly, it was always about a quest for the truth, and we wouldn`t listen to anybody`s lies.

But here in this situation, with this little girl, while the police are trying desperately to put together what actually happened to her, you have a mother who continues to lie, you have grandparents who were scrambling to go get immunity. They are continually victimizing this little child, and I just think that the dysfunction in that family has created such a toxic environment that a little girl lost her life, and still -- still nobody there is willing to face the truth. I just think it`s about one of the most appalling family situations I`ve ever seen.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks, we`ve got to think about the evidence at trial. We`ve got to think about what can be proved. And we`ve got to think, and anticipate what the defense is going to say, and meet it ahead of time. And I`m thinking about the continuous possession of this car. Of this car. Linking that hair to this body. And getting rid of any theory someone else may have had the vehicle. Weigh in.

BROOKS: I think you`re right, Nancy. And that`s going to be very important when you go to trial. And -- the evidence. They`re building the identification. Now you need the evidence. And the whole time that the car ran out of gas and that`s why the -- the employees at that Amscot are going to be able to say, you know, did they see anyone in that car, did they se anyone leave that car, did they see anyone come back to that car? It`s going to be very important on some of their statements they`ve given police.

GRACE: And with her there at the car stating I ran out of gas, we can place her there on that date. We know when the car was first determined to have the smell of death in it. It`s going to be a very complicated time line to show continuous possession of the car. I want to go to Natisha Lance, there at the location where the skull was discovered.

Natisha, what can you tell me about possession of the car and not only that, Natisha, I understand that there has been a fight, an actual argument, over photos or video of this skull? I can guarantee you, that skull, even if the photo is ever released, will not be broadcast on this show. I can tell you that much.

LANCE: Well, this argument came in court when Jose Baez was arguing the motions he had. One of the motions was to get photographs and drawings and any video recordings of the crime scene back there. And the attorney for the Orange County Sheriff`s Office said, we cannot release photos of this skull and possibly have it broadcast on the news. We will pick and choose and possibly give you pictures that we think are relevant and that we think you might possibly need in order to do your case. But we`re not going to go ahead and give you pictures that could possibly make it on to the news.

GRACE: I understand that the FBI have just arrived there behind you?

LANCE: That`s right, Nancy. Nick savage, one of the investigators who has been working diligently on this case, just pulled up back here. Probably means that they are having some sort of meeting or debriefing at this point.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Renee Rockwell, Mickey Sherman. Mickey, the grandparents now wanting full immunity. Why can we believe them now?

SHERMAN: Well, why can you not believe them? These are people who are in crisis.

GRACE: Because they have admitted to making conflicting statements, number one.

SHERMAN: Well, last I checked, conflicting statements is not a crime, a misdemeanor, felony or an infraction.

GRACE: That`s not what I asked you. I asked you why should we believe them now.

SHERMAN: Because we`re vilifying them. First they were seduced by the press. And then they became their enemies.

GRACE: I`m not vilifying them.

SHERMAN: I`m not saying you .

GRACE: Don`t say we! Don`t jump up and say we! I`m not vilifying them, I`ve defended them.

SHERMAN: Not you. Everybody else. I agree. You`ve seen the scenes of these people under siege with the satellite trucks all around. At first they thought everyone was there to help them. Now they`re absolutely paranoid and I don`t blame them.

GRACE: Renee, let`s talk about the brass tacks. Why should the prosecutor give them immunity now? They`ve got the body, apparently. We`re waiting on that announcement. Why should they give the grandparents immunity now?

ROCKWELL: What if the grandparents through the attorney and through a proffer say, OK, you`ll never believe our daughter but we will tell you exactly what happened. That might be interesting enough. They may not be able to figure that out, Nancy, from the physical evidence that they have now. And maybe the truth would be important to the prosecution.

GRACE: Renee, do you believe the state is going to re-evaluate its position on the death penalty?

ROCKWELL: Absolutely, Nancy, absolutely. Because they don`t have to commit until the jury`s empanelled.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: The FBI has just arrived on the scene where the location -- where the remains were discovered. Out to Natisha Lance standing by there. Natisha, what`s happening?

LANCE: Actually, Nancy, they went into -- the Orange County Sheriff`s Office mobile command center is still here. So they`ve gone into that area. We can`t see what they`re doing but I would assume probably have along debriefing about the things they found today. Because Captain Angelo Nieves told us they continue to make more and more discoveries and possibly waiting on that I.D. that could happen as you`ve been saying at any moment.

GRACE: Also, it`s my understanding Natisha, they say they are still finding bones?

LANCE: Actually, they haven`t specified whether it`s bones or not. But they said that they are continuing to make discoveries in this case. Significant discoveries that they think probably will be shipped off to the medical examiner`s office.

GRACE: Have the grandparents come to the scene at all, Natisha?

LANCE: No, Nancy, not that I have seen. Now I did hear word they were outside of their house today for a few moments. But no, they have not come down to the scene. They have remained fairly quiet.

GRACE: And Natisha, I understand that they`re all closeted in that mobile unit. How late does the mobile unit stay there?

LANCE: It`s here all night. All night. It will be here in the morning.

GRACE: Is it protecting the scene?

LANCE: Actually, there`s deputies right behind us. I`m not sure if we can pan over and you can see. But there are deputies right behind us. There`s crime scene tape so that you cannot get past here unless you go past these deputies. And they are on 12-hour shifts. So nobody can get past here without going past those deputies first.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Private First Class James Yohn, 25, Highfire (ph), Pennsylvania, killed Iraq. A firefighter, inspired to join after September 11th. Outgoing, free-spirited, loved making others laugh. Killed before the birth of his very first child Jimmy Jr. Leaves behind mother Judith, father and stepmother Robert and Julia, three brothers and grieving wife Amber. James Yohn, American Hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0812/17/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Worker Who Found Possible Caylee Remains Was Also August Tipster

Aired December 18, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a beautiful 3-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. We are waiting for a formal announcement, expected at any moment, officially declaring the child`s remains to be that of little Caylee.
At this hour, police and forensic experts still on the scene where skeletal remains believed to be Caylee found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home, police expanding the search area after finding a tooth, hair and even more tiny bones. This after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag, and a human skull, a tiny human skull, literally rolls out, covered in long, light-colored hair, hair still intact because of thick industrial duct tape wrapped around this child`s tiny head.

Tonight, bombshell. Did the meter reader who found the child`s skeleton actually alert police with the same tip four months ago, calling not once, not twice, but three times? What went wrong? And just moments ago, confirmation more bones have just been found. Investigators now say the search will go through the weekend. Just released, photos on of the crime scene, 171 images where little Caylee`s remains likely being recovered at this moment.

And despite reports these are the tiny bones of her 2-year-old girl, tot mom Casey Anthony busy behind bars ordering a list of snacks for herself to enjoy, even ordering playing cards as the rest of the country waits for an announcement. Are these scattered remains all that`s left of little Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news in the case of missing 3-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. The meter reader who found the remains near the Anthony home had called police three times over four months ago to tell them about the location.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, this is Orange County utilities emergency dispatch. We found a human skull.

922 OPERATOR: Oh, my gosh!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. We got a -- is it a meter reader?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Orange County sheriff`s department said a deputy was sent on scene to investigate back in August, and they`re now looking into the incident.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The tip that we received on August 13 was the same individual that reported the findings on December 11. It was the same individual that called in to the communications center and called us this past Thursday that made the discovery. We have three tips from that individual. We are trying to determine the circumstances and the thoroughness of the deputy that responded that day, and we`ll continue to do so in the coming days.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also just moments ago, authorities announced they`ve found additional significant skeletal remains today along the outer perimeter of the search area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As far as the search area, we currently are going to maintain the crime scene investigation. The current area of search has been expanded. There have been significant skeletal remains located late this afternoon on the outer perimeter of the grid area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An Orange County sheriff`s office spokesperson said investigators will be on scene searching until at least tomorrow night, while photos of the active crime scene where the remains were found were just released by the sheriff`s office.

CINDY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDMOTHER: Jose said that you said everything would make sense once we found Caylee.

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: Well, yes. Once you have someone that you can talk to, that you can get a real explanation from that`s known where she`s been -- it`s going to have to be because up to that point -- once we get Caylee, everything else will figure itself out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Stunning details continue to emerge from the crime scene. Bombshell. Could the case have been cracked four long months ago?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stunning details today in the case of missing 3- year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. The utility worker who found the remains believed to be that of little Caylee had called police at least three times in August to report it.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to let you speak right now with the representative from our field services facilities. Everything is recorded. Here he is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you doing? The skull (INAUDIBLE) says he believes it`s human.

911 OPERATOR: What`s the location?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s right off of Suburban and Chickasaw in the Caylee Anthony area, right by the...

911 OPERATOR: Oh!

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An Orange County sheriff`s office spokesperson said the deputy was sent out to the site four months ago and they are now investigating the new development.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On August 13, he actually meets with the deputy out here at the scene, takes him into the wooded area. The deputy does a follow-up of the wooded area, where he saw a bag. The -- what we`re going to -- trying to determine now is the thoroughness of the deputy`s response.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Local investigators and the FBI will continue to search the area where the skull and other remains of a young child were found. A police spokesperson said officers will remain at the site for at least another day, while photos of the crime scene itself has just been made public.

CASEY ANTHONY: She is going to need all of us. We all need to be strong. You need to take care of yourself. (INAUDIBLE) like I told Lee, you need to eat. You need to sleep. You need to take care of yourself.

CINDY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) she`s not here (INAUDIBLE)

CASEY ANTHONY: I told you, in my gut I know she`s still OK. I can feel it, Mom. I know she`s still OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Jessica D`Onofrio with WKMG. Jessica, thank you for being with us -- Jessica standing by at the location where the little remains were found. What can you tell me about this same meter reader calling in the tip three times back in August?

JESSICA D`ONOFRIO, WKMG: Well, Nancy, back on August 11, he called the tip in to Crimeline. A deputy responded out here to Suburban Drive. They didn`t meet with him at the time. They cleared the scene. They left.

Then on August 12, he calls in another tip. This time, it goes to CID, the Criminal Investigations Division at the Orange County sheriff`s office. It gets passed along to a detective. That detective looks at records and sees that cadaver dogs have already searched here, so the detective doesn`t feel it`s necessary to respond out to the location.

Now we`re on August 13. He calls in the tip again to Crimeline. A deputy, a male deputy, responds out to the scene here on Suburban. He meets with the utility worker this time. It`s the first time he met with the deputy in those three days. And the deputy does go back and does look, but then leaves for some reason. Also, he`s backed up by a female deputy who pulls up, and she`s waved off by that deputy and he says, I have this scene covered, no need to worry. And that`s all there was.

They left, and now we are, you know -- to this day a week ago on Thursday, he comes back out here. He`s curious. He used to work in this area. He was reassigned at a certain point, but now he has been reassigned to this area again, and he was curious. He went back there, he looked, and he found what he found. He found the remains of a small child. Now, we`re still waiting to hear, is it Caylee?

GRACE: OK, let me get this straight -- Jessica D`Onofrio joining us from WKMG. She`s there at the scene where the remains were found. The first day he calls in, the cops get there and there`s no meter reader, so they leave, right?

D`ONOFRIO: Correct. The deputy responds, they leave.

GRACE: Yes, no. OK. Second day, he calls in. He`s still saying, Look, people, there`s a bag out there. And he calls in and they look at their logs and see cadaver dogs have been in the area before, so nobody goes out?

D`ONOFRIO: Correct.

GRACE: OK. Nobody goes out.

D`ONOFRIO: Correct.

GRACE: Thursday, he`s, like, OK, I`m going to call again. He calls and the cops come. Here`s my question. When the cops come, did he take them up to where the bag was, or did he point and go, It`s out there, and leave? What went down?

D`ONOFRIO: Well, we`re still asking those questions right now, Nancy, and that is what this investigation is about. That is what the Orange County sheriff`s office is looking into, that specific deputy and how thorough he was. What exactly did he do? Did he go back there and search? How far did this meter reader take him back? So that`s what we`re waiting to hear. It`s under investigation.

GRACE: Or did the meter reader even take him back? Did he meet him there by the side of the road and say, It`s right up there, I`ve got to get back to work, let me know what happens?

Let`s unleash the lawyers. We are taking your calls live. Joining me from the Atlanta studio, Eleanor Dixon, felony prosecutor specializing in crimes on children and women, veteran trial lawyer Peter Odom, also out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, and famed defense attorney out of New York Richard Herman.

Well, this certainly gives the defense something to gnash their teeth with.

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s brilliant, Nancy. I mean, the cadaver dogs were there. They did not alert. All of a sudden, Casey`s in prison. Now, all of a sudden, a bag is found with bones in it while she`s in prison. Obviously, the logical explanation is someone moved the body there while Casey was in prison.

GRACE: You know, Richard, I had a feeling you were going to say that. But what about this scenario, Peter Odom, defense attorney out of Atlanta? What about the fact that this actually helps the state? If someone spotted the remains there back in August 11 and called police, a concerned citizen, so we can now hone that timeline. We now know the remains were there August 11.

And you know, I used to practice law in front of a judge that was 84 years old, Peter Odom, and he would tell the jury, When there are conflicting statements, you are to impugn deception on no one, but instead, find a way to make all parties speak the truth. That may be done here. Maybe nobody did anything wrong. For all we know, the meter reader pulled up, the cops pulled up and he goes, It`s right up there, and took off.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: But Nancy, how about those cadaver dogs in which you put so much faith? If the body was there and the cadaver dogs didn`t smell -- why didn`t the cadaver dogs not smell them? This throws everything into question.

GRACE: I disagree. Eleanor Dixon, you`ll have to show me where the cadaver dogs went. Don`t tell me they just went in the area. The area could be five miles wide. I don`t want to hear the cadaver dog went in the area. You got to show me where the cadaver dog went, when he went, because remember, right after the meter reader saw the bag, according to him, Hurricane Faye hit and the whole area was under water. In fact, the meter reader, after the water subsides, goes back and says, I`ll be darned, there`s the bag. I`m calling again.

What about it, Eleanor? What`s wrong with that scenario?

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Nothing wrong with it, Nancy. And of course, the cadaver dogs weren`t called out after that time. And you`ve got to remember, it`s heavily grown. There`s a lot of underbrush. So it would have been easy for somebody to have missed that.

GRACE: Just released, 171 images of the crime scene. Of course, when it is released, we will not be showing photos of the child`s skull. You can see here how thick the underbrush is while cops were desperately looking for little Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I love you guys so much. I miss you. Oh, God!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We love you, too. I love you, too. We`re going to -- we`re going to find Caylee and...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The current area of search has been expanded. There have been significant skeletal remains located late this afternoon. The skeletal remains are (INAUDIBLE) consistency of a small child.

CASEY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) I miss her. I love her dearly, and I want nothing more than for her to come home and to be safe and to be where she belongs, with her family. It`s obvious that we`ll stop at nothing to get her back because I know in my heart, I know in my gut, I know with every ounce of my being that we will be with her again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve searched over 5,000 tips. We currently are following up on some information regarding this particular location in which we received three tips back in August. Again, we are attempting to be as thorough, as clear and as concise as possible with the information that we receive.

There was a window of opportunity, possibly. We had a deputy respond to this location on August 13. We are currently trying to determine the situation of that response, determine what the deputy did on scene at that time with the tipster that we received the information from. And we continue to be thorough as possible in order to determine the circumstances on that afternoon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Did the meter reader who stumbled across this garbage bag full of a child`s remains actually call in the same tip back in August three separate times? What went wrong?

Out to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. That in addition to the fact that just hours ago, even more remains were found. Drew, what can you tell me about the recent remains found today? How far away are they from the original bag?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, that`s what`s interesting about these latest findings. We understand that they were actually found on the outer perimeter of the search zone, which we know now to be anywhere from a half acre to an acre. So you can see that these bones are being found really far away from this original finding was, which explains why it`s taking so long for them to do this search. It`s a big area.

You know, you can see through those pictures that it`s really thick undergrowth, and they`re having to clear out the undergrowth to be able to search there. There`s also beer cans and trash there because we have heard that that was a place where kids used to party. So it`s just a huge area for them to search in. It`s why it`s taking eight days, and they it`s going to go on into the weekend.

GRACE: And this while the defense -- well, there`s no other way to put it -- whines, whines in court, asking a trial judge to stop the search, claiming that the police are taking too long to process the scene. And now after that argument was knocked down in court by the judge, more tiny bones have been discovered.

What about it, Richard Herman? What`s the defense afraid of? Why don`t they want the police to finish the search?

HERMAN: They want them to finish it, Nancy. They just want to be there to observe it. Look, you would agree with me that law enforcement made a mistake. Three times they were alerted to this months ago and did nothing. This law enforcement...

GRACE: That`s not true.

HERMAN: ... makes mistakes.

GRACE: That`s not true. They did not do nothing. Every time, they followed up. They dispatched people out there. In fact, one time they even sent two cars. I don`t know why you`re shaking your head no. Just because they didn`t find the remains when they went out there does not mean they did nothing or that they were derelict in their duty.

Elizabeth, could you please show the scenes, the photos of the crime scene. You know, I know that you`re joining us from a skyscraper in New York, Richard Herman, and you may not be familiar with the dense growth in the Georgia and Florida area, but I doubt even you with a microscope and a machete could have found this bag, so don`t even start with me, Herman!

HERMAN: Hey, Nancy, I know those dogs alert whether the body`s covered in water or not.

GRACE: If they`re in the right place.

HERMAN: Those dogs would have alerted.

GRACE: If they`re in the right place.

HERMAN: Well, they were in the right place, Nancy.

GRACE: Says who, you?

HERMAN: Yes, says me.

GRACE: You can`t laugh it off, Herman. I`m serious. Says who? You? How do we know where they were?

HERMAN: Because the police said they put the dogs through that area, that`s how.

GRACE: Through the area, but where? What area? A five-mile radius? Where? Where were the dogs, Herman?

HERMAN: Nancy, they were taken directly to that location...

GRACE: Says who?

HERMAN: ... where the bag was found.

GRACE: Yes, says who?

HERMAN: Says law enforcement!

GRACE: No. As a matter of fact, Natisha, what did they say? Didn`t they say that the cops looked back in their logs and (INAUDIBLE) cadaver dogs had gone in the area?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: They did say that. They said that cadaver dogs had gone in this area. However, according to Jessica D`Onofrio -- and you can probably go into more detail with her -- around this time -- Hurricane Faye actually did not hit until August 20.

GRACE: Right.

LANCE: They said that there were cadaver dogs who were in this area and who did search around during that time...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: But could you tell me, Natisha, when you say the area, what do you mean by that? Is it a five-mile radius? Is it -- is it exactly where the bag was? Is it around the elementary school where Casey Anthony went to school? Is it around the house, which is just 15 homes away? Where? Can you clarify for me where the dogs searched exactly?

LANCE: I cannot tell you specifically where they did search, but I can say it was around the general area, Suburban Drive, in this area where they found these remains.

GRACE: You know what? No offense, Natisha, but I already know that. Tell me something we don`t know.

To Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter there on the scene. Leonard, what do you know?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well, I was really satisfied that God had had a hand in guiding this individual meter reader into the brush because it`s pretty thick brush. And then when this situation developed today, I started having doubts and questioning the situation as to an individual that calls the deputies on the 11th, calls again on the 12th, persistently calls on the 13th.

I`m saying, OK, is somebody guiding this gentleman into doing these calls and then puts him back out there on the 11th of December? I just have questions. Now, I`ll grant you this, that that brush is so thick that you could be standing two foot from the body and not see it. Now, there`s a lot...

GRACE: Leonard Padilla, have you ever seen a case without a big conspiracy behind it? Because apparently there are items within this bag that link directly back to the Anthony home.

PADILLA: That`s correct.

GRACE: To suggest the meter reader is somehow in on some nefarious...

PADILLA: No, no, no, no, no. That`s not what I`m saying.

GRACE: ... plot is completely not true.

PADILLA: That`s not what I`m saying.

GRACE: Then what are you saying?

PADILLA: I`m saying that somebody told him to go there, that that`s where the body was.

GRACE: So then he`s in on it.

PADILLA: Not in a conspiracy form. Not in a conspiracy form.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The current area of search has been expanded. There have been significant skeletal remains located late this afternoon on the outer perimeter of the grid area, that continued -- that the grid area has been expanded so the area will not be released probably until possibly either Friday evening, possibly looking into Saturday at the earliest. So we will continue to look into the area, continue to scour, work the grid patterns. And our crime scene investigators with the FBI Tampa team evidence recovery team continue to work the situation here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have to be responsible. And from the beginning, we`ve been very thorough with this. And whoever this child may be -- and of course, we`re all assuming that it`s Caylee -- and you know, that we want to be thorough. We want to make sure that we do things right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Stunning developments today in the search for little Caylee. First of all, to Surata in Georgia. Hi, Surata.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello. How are you?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, first I wanted to say that I love your show. And I have my little girl and she`s -- I`m a young mother and she`s my world.

GRACE: I feel the same way.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And also that since all this new evidence came out with the meter reader finding it -- finding the skull and giving the tip in August three times, and the cops didn`t find anything, are they not going to seek the death penalty? And...

GRACE: OK. Go ahead quickly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then will we ever know, instead of Casey being the monster that she is, why wouldn`t she just give custody to her parents instead of killing her?

GRACE: We`ll be right back with Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, to answer those questions.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police are searching for answers in the case of missing Caylee Marie Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators have been digging in the family`s backyard.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Detective Yuri Melich says when they finally got permission to search the car, they opened it up and it smelled of death.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: When we smelled that smell you never get over it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Baez does believe Casey will be key in the search for little Caylee.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: I have no clue where my daughter is? Yes, that is the truth.

She`s not far. I know in my heart she`s not far.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`d be out searching if she could.

C. ANTHONY: I just want to help find her. I can`t do anything from where I`m at.

TIM MILLER, HEAD OF TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: I know Caylee`s remains are out there somewhere.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: We need to start looking for a little girl that`s walking and breathing that someone actually has her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey? Where`s Caylee? At least where`s her remains!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The remains of a little girl found lost from the family`s home and investigators believe bones, hair and other findings point to evidence it`s Caylee.

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t want to wait another minute.

C. ANTHONY: I don`t want to wait another minute. I want -- I want her to be found whether I`m still stuck in here or not, I don`t care.

CINDY ANTHONY: I think when she`s found then you can tell everybody what you know and you`ll be out -- you`ll be released, don`t you think?

C. ANTHONY: Potentially, I don`t know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are taking your calls live.

Out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. What about that question from Georgia?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: Well, Georgia asked, number one, if the death penalty could be back on the table. Absolutely it could. If they find that there are aggravating circumstances in this little girl`s murder.

GRACE: You mean like duct tape around the head?

BROOKS: I`d say that`s one -- at least one aggravating circumstance, Nancy. She`s also under the age of 12 and you know, when we find out exactly how she died, there could be more so I`m looking at it -- it can be back on the table.

The other question was about why her -- why she just didn`t give her to her parents. For the most part, Nancy, we know that she spent a lot of time with the grandparents and, you know, they basically raised her up until now.

GRACE: And isn`t it true, Natisha Lance, our producer there at the scene where the remains have been found that reports are emerging that during her pregnancy, she discussed giving the baby away and then grandmother Cindy Anthony put the (INAUDIBLE) on that?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes. Well, reportedly, she had discussed giving the baby away to her friend Kale Marie who had suggested adopting the baby, but then she says that she discussed it further with Cindy and Cindy said no, you`re going to keep the baby and so Casey was -- had Caylee.

GRACE: We are awaiting a formal announcement that these are the remains of little Caylee.

Back to Natisha there at the scene. What`s going on?

LANCE: Right now, Nancy, there are some investigators who are still here tonight. I was told that they would probably be wrapping up around 10 o`clock. They are back out here with a blue light looking at this grid pattern area that they`ve been being looking at for the past week.

They were out here last night as well as this blue light -- apparently, this blue light will pick up different fibers, different hairs, as well as different fluids possibly in the scene, and once again that grid pattern area has extended to about an acre.

GRACE: Now hold on. They are out there right now with the blue light combing over the area where the bag was found?

LANCE: That`s correct, Nancy.

GRACE: And isn`t it true, Mike Brooks, that the blue light works obviously much better in the dark?

BROOKS: Yes. You need total darkness, Nancy. We call it ultra light source, the blue light, you also use it in conjunction with some orange goggles. As I said previously, I was -- I was with the emergency evidence response team with the FBI, have used this before, and it shows hairs and fibers.

You would be surprised at different fibers possibly from her trunk, possibly from clothing, possibly from the home that just light up under this alternate light source, and you can also use it to find body fluids. But most likely what they`re looking for since they`ve already found in this particular area a hair. They`re back out looking for more hair and possible fibers.

GRACE: You are seeing images from the crime scene, that green tarp set up over where the searchers are and also where the remains were located. According to our producer, they are still out there right now searching the scene with a fine-toothed comb looking for hair, fiber, fluids with an -- ultraviolet light, an alternative light source that does not work in the daytime hours.

We`re taking your calls live.

Very quickly to Dr. Marty Makary, physician and professor of public health at Johns Hopkins, he`s joining us out of Washington, D.C.

Dr. Makary, long time no see. Thank you for being with us.

Dr. Makary, we have learned that police believe the remains were dumped. The body of this child was dumped very shortly after the murder. How can you tell that?

DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: You know, unfortunately, when skeletal remains are scattered and we learned today that they found more, quote, unquote, "skeletal remains" of significant amount, then really the assumption is that animals got into the body, if you can tolerate that thought, and the soft tissue is gone.

So those bruises are not something you can really investigate. The DNA, you`re going to nail a perfect match, but with the soft tissue it`s really not going to be there like it is in most investigations especially when it`s under water.

GRACE: To Jason Byrd, joining us out of Gainesville, Florida. He is a forensic entomologist with the University of Florida.

Professor, thank you for being with us. How can police determine -- how can they develop a theory that this body was dumped so shortly after the murder?

JASON BYRD, FORENSIC ENTOMOLOGIST, UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA: You can (INAUDIBLE) the insects found (INAUDIBLE) on the -- on human remains. The insects themselves develop at a known rate which is based on temperature. So you can go back over the time period in question, take some climate record, temperature data and basically plot on a day for day basis.

So locally, with the insects and come back to within a reasonable timeframe of when the body was colonized by the insects or exposed to that environment.

GRACE: Even though Hurricane Fay left all the water, they can still do that?

BYRD: Well, yes. There is a chance that the remains have been colonized before the hurricane. If the remains were deposited in an aquatic environment then you have the aquatic insects to deal with which are still colonized remains and as the water started to recede, of course, the land-based insects could colonize as well.

GRACE: Right.

BYRD: So it could prove a complete timeline.

GRACE: With me is Professor Jason Byrd, forensic entomologist at University of Florida.

As you all probably recall, all of you court watchers, the first time many people became aware of the use of a forensic entomologist was in the case of Danielle Van Dam, out in California. The entomologist established a timeline as to when a child`s body had been exposed of and we can expect the same thing in this case.

Very quickly, to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Deal Breakers."

Bethany, we learned that a couple of hours after the announcement that these remains had been found, tot mom Casey Anthony is behind bars ordering a deck of cards and snacks for herself. Thoughts?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, my thought is this girl has become so adept at telling lies, getting caught, falling apart for just a few minutes and then pulling herself right back together again.

GRACE: I mean Dr. Bethany.

MARSHALL: That`s happened so many times.

GRACE: Dr. Bethany.

MARSHALL: She just reassembles herself.

GRACE: Dr. Bethany. Dr. Bethany. Dr. Bethany.

MARSHALL: Yes?

GRACE: My daughter`s remains have been found, she thinks so, I`ll order some pork skins. It`s not fitting together for me.

MARSHALL: I know.

GRACE: Explain the thinking, the mentality of that.

MARSHALL: Well, Nancy, let`s think about this little girl being in the woods. It`s not just that Casey, if she did this, wanted her daughter out of the way, this is a mother who had hatred, resentment, distaste for this little girl. Why?

Did she want her out of the way because she wanted Cindy and George`s attention, resources, money all to herself or, as you pointed out in an earlier segment, maybe she never wanted to give birth to this little girl and also that...

GRACE: You know what, Eleanor Dixon, I know that the defense will argue it doesn`t matter, but I would make it the state`s exhibit that within hours after her daughter`s remains have been discovered she`s ordering snacks for herself behind bars.

ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Exactly, it goes to the state of mind, Nancy, and you can tie that to her state of mind when Caylee was allegedly missing and she was playing in a bar.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0812/18/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

DNA Confirms Remains Are Caylee Anthony

Aired December 19, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate today. Word comes just hours ago the FBI forensic lab, Quantico, matches little Caylee`s DNA with a child`s skeleton found in a heavily- wooded area just 15 houses away from the Anthonys. Cause of death, homicide. The little girl`s remains completely skeletonized, making the manner of death nearly impossible to determine.
Orange County investigators literally on their hands and knees for the last eight days, searching, searching for hundreds of tiny undeveloped bones, this after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag and a human skull, a tiny human skull, literally rolls out, covered in long, light-colored hair, hair still intact because of thick industrial duct tape wrapped around the child`s tiny head.

In the last hours, the utility meter reader finally breaks his silence, confirming it`s the same bag he spotted back in August. Did he actually alert police with this same tip four months ago, calling not once, twice, but three times? Tot mom Casey Anthony learns behind bars the tiny skeleton is confirmed to be little Caylee, and then promptly turns away a visit from the family pastor. Instead, she takes a visit from her own defense team. Tonight, will there ever be justice for Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With regret, I`m here to inform you that the skeletal remains found on December 11 are those of the missing toddler Caylee Anthony. This identification was made by nuclear DNA taken from a portion of the remains and compared to a known profile of Caylee Anthony. My examination of the body and evidence is complete, barring no further bones being found, and the anthropologic exam will be finished up shortly.

The remains are completely skeletonized, with no visible soft tissue present and no ante-mortem trauma evidence, meaning that there was no trauma to the bone prior to the death. Toxicology testing is still to be completed on the bone and hair. While this analysis may prove to be informative, it will be difficult to interpret levels from these specimens, and thus will not be definitive in helping determine the cause of death.

The manner of death, though, is an opinion based on available information, including examination of the body, information from the scene, as well as circumstantial evidence. Based on all of this, the manner of death in this case is homicide.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Breaking news tonight. Six months of searching comes to a screeching halt. DNA confirms tiny skeletal remains discovered just 15 homes from the Anthonys are those of little Florida girl Caylee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is some dispersion of the skeletal remains over an area. A large percentage of the skeleton has been recovered. That`s why we said, for a child, some of the bones are tiny. All of the bones are not developed. They`re in pieces because of the way a child develops. And so there are numerous -- there are -- a child`s skeleton has many more bones than an adult`s skeleton. Some of the bones are tiny, as big as a pebble, and some of those have been recovered.

SHERIFF KEVIN BEARY, ORANGE COUNTY: This would be a police chief`s or a sheriff`s nightmare case. And it`s got tremendous media exposure. I think there`s been an open wound in the community, and I believe we can start putting some closure to those open wounds and -- having a kid at the -- you know, I`ve raised two girls. Goodness, gracious! As Steve Ibison said from the FBI, the bottom line is, folks, no child should have to go through this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: What a day. Straight out to Mark Williams, joining us tonight. Mark, bring us up to date.

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Nancy, of course, big news this afternoon, the news we were hoping to hear but we really didn`t want to hear, is the remains found last week by a meter reader are those of 2-year- old Caylee Anthony, found in her neighborhood literally 15 doors away from where the remains were found. This afternoon, "`Dr. G.," the Orange County medical examiner, said those are the remains of those of Caylee Anthony. There was no trauma to any of the bones. And the remains were identified through DNA and the profile of little Caylee Anthony.

GRACE: What do we know about the reaction of grandparents George and Cindy Anthony?

WILLIAMS: Well, right now, what we know is that their attorney, Brad Coleman -- Conway, held a news conference just a couple of minutes ago. He said the Anthonys are grieving right now. They hope no other parents or grandparents ever have to go through like this. Their pastor, Shane Stutzman, is with them right now at their house out on Hopespring Drive.

GRACE: I want to go out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. We understand that the meter reader -- sources say that he says this bag is the same one he saw back in August. Response.

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I tell you what, he spoke out today and he says he`s nothing but a concerned citizen. But Nancy, I have a real problem. There were three calls, at least two calls for police service, and one call in to a crime line. Now, the one that bothers me is August 13. There were calls on August 11, 12 and 13.

What they need to do, what the Orange County sheriff`s department needs to do, they need to talk to Mr. Kronk, get the recording when he called in to the Communication Division, find out what time the call was dispatched, what time the deputy arrived there and he met with him.

Now, I want to know what he told the deputy, and did the deputy investigate the report of the bag? Did he point it out to him? And after the end of every call for police service, Nancy, you come back with a disposition. Either it`s 10-8, no report, you get a report, or they type something into their on-board computer. They need to find out exactly what that is.

GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Drew, it seems to me that reports that surfaced today explaining the entire thing very well. What have you heard?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Are you talking about that -- that last meeting right there between...

GRACE: I`m talking about the meter reader`s three tips about the same bag.

PETRIMOULX: Right. Well, really, the million-dollar question, what happened on that third day, like Mike was just talking about, when that meter reader met with the cop out at the site? That is the one unanswered question. Sheriff Kevin Beary said today that they will conduct an investigation into that but didn`t really say exactly what happened. Did they go into the woods? Did he point out that exact bag? These are all questions that are going to come from an internal investigation that the sheriff`s office is conducting within their department.

GRACE: To our producer, Natisha Lance, standing by at the location where little Caylee`s remains were discovered. Natisha, reports are surfacing that out of the three calls, there was one day where the police came and the utility meter was there, and the police officer said, Hold on, I`ll go search, and was scared away by a rattlesnake who was there in the underbrush. What do you know?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s correct, Nancy. According to some reports that are out there -- there`s one report that says there was a rattlesnake that both the utility worker and the deputy saw, and the deputy said, You stay back here since there`s a rattlesnake, I`ll go in there and check it out. And then there`s another report that says that the deputy went into the woods, was scared off by a snake, came back out and said, Oh, there`s nothing back there, it`s all clear. And like Drew was just saying, this is under investigative review -- and they are -- administrative review, excuse me -- and they are looking into it.

Now, the other thing that`s interesting, Nancy, is that second call that came in, they didn`t even come out here. It was -- went to the Criminal Investigation Division. A detective looked at it and said, We`ve already had cadaver dogs out in that area, there`s nothing back there. So all these things -- all these answers need to be -- all these questions need to be answered.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Today marks the end of six months since little Caylee was last seen alive. DNA testing from the FBI lab, Quantico, Virginia, confirms remains found just 15 houses away from the Anthonys` home are those of little Caylee. Since that time, grandparents George and Cindy have been in seclusion in their home. We know their pastor`s car has been parked there in the driveway of the home. We are taking your calls live.

Let`s unleash the lawyers, Gloria Allred, victims` rights attorney out of LA, Joe Episcopo, renowned trial attorney out of the Tampa area, and Pamela Hayes, a defense attorney, a courtroom veteran, joining us out of New York.

Gloria Allred, who cares? What difference does it make if the cop didn`t see the bag, if he did see the bag, if a rattlesnake scared him, what difference? Shoulda-coulda-woulda. Long story short, they didn`t see it when they followed up on the tip. They see it now. It`s the same bag in the general location as before. And it`s Caylee.

GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well, the fact is, Nancy, for the defense, this is going to be the gift that keeps on giving because what they`re going to do is, of course, demand that the investigation be investigated, which is already going to be done, according to the sheriff. But then when it comes to the trial, they`re going to continue to raise doubts, doubts about when the bag was there, did anybody tamper with the bag afterwards, how long has Caylee been in the bag, who might have placed her in the bag? That`s what`s going to happen.

GRACE: You know -- out to Joe Episcopo, joining us there in Florida. Joe, listen, these are the same officers that have been on their hands and knees for eight days looking for undeveloped bones of little Caylee. I just am not falling in line with the dereliction of duty by that sheriff that went out there.

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, if you`re crawling around on your hands and knees, why are you going to be scared by a snake? No, you know, this is two things for the defense. One, a new suspect, Mr. Kronk, and two, botched police investigation, which you know was a major factor in O.J.`s acquittal...

GRACE: Stop, stop, stop! Stop everything. Put him on the air. You`re saying on national TV that Kronk, who called the police not once, not twice, three times, called the police to report this bag, is a suspect. Do you really believe a defense attorney in his or her right mind would jump up and say that to a jury? You`ve got to be kidding me.

EPISCOPO: Yes, of course they`re going to do it. They`re going to do it from every angle.

GRACE: BS! They will lose all credibility, Pam Hayes, if they come up with that argument. Pam Hayes, answer!

PAM HAYES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You`ve got to investigate the case. I don`t know what their defense is going to be.

GRACE: You argue that, and you`re all looking at the death penalty.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S GRANDFATHER: One thing that her and I always did was Spongebob Squarepants, you know? And I started that and I started to cry, but then I started to chuckle because -- you know, that special little combination of things that I had with her, you know? So realize we love you, we love her. We want you both home. We want you home. Whatever you can do to help us, you know...

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: I`ve done everything that I can do from where I`m at. I`m sorry. I`ve done everything that I can.

BEARY: No child should have to go through this. I think there`s been an open wound in the community, and I believe we can start putting some closure to those open wounds.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is Sheriff Kevin Beary. He nearly came to tears today, describing the discovery, these little remains and their DNA match to Caylee Marie Anthony. It`s been six long months since she was seen alive, and today we learn that skeletonized remains just 15 homes away from the Anthonys are those of little Caylee. At this hour, we do not know the cause of death, only the manner of death is homicide.

To Dr. Michael Arnall, board-certified forensic pathologist joining us out of Denver. We hear that the bones, the skeleton, had no trauma to them. I`m assuming what she means by that, the medical examiner in Florida, is that there were no broken bones, there were no lacerations to the bones, no nicks in the bones to suggest a bullet wound, no tool markings on the bone to suggest that the bones had been severed or lacerated at the time of death. What does it mean, no trauma to the bones?

DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: I believe she said no ante- mortem trauma. I interpret that (INAUDIBLE) to mean that she sees no trauma on the bone that may be related to the cause of death. But I think she`s left the door open, and we`ll just have to wait and see whether there may be actual marks from small animals.

But I think she said no ante-mortem trauma, but that does, indeed, mean that she`s found no evidence of a gunshot wound on the bones, no evidence of a knife wound on the bones, and no evidence of a fractured skull or a fractured arm or leg or ribs. So I think she has excluded any type of traumatic injury before death that would have caused the death of this child.

GRACE: And Dr. Arnall, the fact that there is absolute -- well, let me rephrase. The bones were completely skeletonized. It`s my layperson`s understanding that that means there is no flesh or soft tissue left from which to get a tissue analysis to determine if chloroform had been used. Does that also mean that there were no internal organs left?

ARNALL: That`s exactly what it means. My interpretation is no skin, no muscle, no internal organs. And that it makes it such that if -- if she wants to get toxicology, she has to do it on a bone or bone marrow.

GRACE: What about hair?

ARNALL: Bone or bone marrow or hair. Hair is excellent.

GRACE: What can you get out of hair?

ARNALL: Hair is excellent.

GRACE: Like what?

ARNALL: Well, hair will tell you a couple of things. Hair can tell you what toxic substances she was exposed to at the time of death, but it also may tell you what substances she was exposed to before death. Hair grows about a centimeter a month, so you can actually go back in time to determine what other drugs she might have been exposed to before death for a period of days.

GRACE: Dr. Arnall, would the inhalation of chloroform show up in a hair?

ARNALL: For two reasons, it may not. It may have been a very short period of time. And the chloroform -- the chloroform is volatile. It means it evaporates. This hair`s been out in the open for a long period of time. The reason they picked it up in the trunk was that it was protected. But out in the open, it may well have completely evaporated.

GRACE: Dr. Arnall, will the only toxic substance that shows up in hair be something that was ingested, as opposed to something that was inhaled?

ARNALL: It could be ingested, it could be inhaled, or if this child was in a room where people were smoking marijuana or crack cocaine or methamphetamine, that also might be on the hair, as well.

GRACE: Back to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. Tell me about the grid search. What is your analysis?

BROOKS: Well, Nancy, it started out -- what my analysis is...

GRACE: Mike, Mike, Mike, what I`m boiling it down -- what I`m trying to ask is, do you think that there are still bones out there belonging to little Caylee?

BROOKS: Most likely not, Nancy. I think they`re almost done, or they are done at the scene. Dr. G. said today that they`ve got the majority of the skeletal remains from the scene.

GRACE: And tell me about the search. How did they do the grid search?

BROOKS: Well, Nancy, I`ve got some pictures we`ll show you here on the Telestrator. This is an aerial view. Here is where the body was found. See how close it is to the road here? Now, let`s go to the next picture. And what they did, after they got inside, they put a tent over the crime scene. And what they did, Nancy -- every one of these little pieces here, these are all what most likely would be pieces of evidence. And what they did, they would grid it out. And you see strings along there.

We can go to the next picture. And each one of these little strings - - this is where they start to make the grid, Nancy. And each one of these grids, what they`ll do is they`ll use a global positioning device, and they will do GPS -- we`ll go to the next slide. And what you see, all these buckets here, Nancy. These are taken from these different grid areas. And what they`ll do is, as they were doing the search, with this -- with -- using the sifters, if they found a piece, they would say, OK, it came from this longitude and latitude, so many inches this way, so many inches that way.

That is so when they do go to trial, Nancy, they can say, We found this piece of bone or this piece of particular evidence in this particular place, basically, recreating the crime scene for the jury.

GRACE: And you know what? I know it sounds like it`s labor- intensive, like they overdid it. Not true. You can`t prepare enough for what you`re going to face on cross-examination at trial.

Back to Mark Williams with WNDB. Mark, is it true that just after learning this is little Caylee, that the tot mom turns away her family pastor behind bars?

WILLIAMS: Yes, that happened this afternoon. Reverend Stutzman, Shane Stutzman from the East Side Baptist Church, went to the jail about 2:00 o`clock this afternoon. Casey refused to meet with him. He left at 2:19 this afternoon.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As everyone now knows, the remains recovered off of Suburban Drive are those of Caylee Marie Anthony. The Anthony family did not give up hope that Caylee was still alive until they were notified by the Orange County sheriff`s office. They now know that their precious granddaughter is safe and hope that she will serve as the angel that protects thousands of missing children and their families.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Still up in the Anthonys` windows, posters to help find little Caylee. They haven`t taken them down yet.

Out to the lines. Patricia in Maryland. Hi, Patricia.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello. How`re you doing, Nancy?

GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question. Why does the utility worker, one, have a lawyer? And two, what`s the chances of finding a needle in a haystack twice?

GRACE: Well, I can tell you this much, Patricia. If I had people like Joe Episcopo on air calling me a suspect, I`d get a lawyer. I might hire Joe Episcopo. But number two, remember, he called once, got no response, didn`t think anyone had come. He kept calling. And I`ve got to hand it to Mr. Kronk that he didn`t give up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: Tell her that I love her, that I miss her, pretty much. It`s a constant.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: My focus is always on my granddaughter, it always will be.

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: She is the light for our day. She is the brightest little star. She has the most amount of energy. She is - - she is extremely curious.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Dear, lord, please watch our little girl, keep her safe until we find her.

Are we going to be able to find her, Casey?

C. ANTHONY: I hope we can, mom.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With regret, I`m here to inform you that the skeletal remains found on December 11th are those of the missing toddler, Caylee Anthony. The cause of death will be listed as homicide by undetermined means.

CINDY ANTHONY: What do you want me to tell Caylee?

C. ANTHONY: That mommy loves her very much. And she`s the most important thing in this entire world to me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: You know, it just makes my stomach clench when I take a look at George and Cindy Anthony. Look at Miss Anthony`s face as she`s -- as she`s listening to her daughter, her face is just blank, she is exhausted. She is holding on to anything the tot mom says behind bars, listening to it, try to interpret it, decipher it, to try and find her little granddaughter.

Out to Dr. Jeff Gardere, take a look at the tot mom going on and on and on, telling this story behind bars. How could she do it? After all this time, all these hours and hours of watching her on jailhouse video? How did she keep it up?

JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "LOVE PRESCRIPTION": Well, I think she was certainly in denial as to whether her daughter was involved in the disappearance of her little Caylee.

GRACE: No, I`m talking about the tot mom. How did the tot mom keep up this facade? I know Cindy Anthony is just hanging on for any -- any words of hope that she can get out of her daughter. But how does Casey Anthony keep this up?

GARDERE: Well, I think it`s part of this personality disorder that we think she has. I think it`s just very telling that she doesn`t allow the reverend or the pastor to come in to talk to her after she finds out that her daughter is definitely dead.

We all know that losing a child is worse than losing a parent, a sibling, a spouse, it shakes your faith. That`s the time that you want to have someone come in and speak with you about your faith. That`s the time that you want to address your daughter is dead.

Instead, she gets down to the business of speaking to her lawyer. It makes me wonder whether she really knew that her daughter was dead, the shock just isn`t there.

GRACE: You know, I want to unleash the lawyers on this, Gloria Allred, L.A., Joe Episcopo, Tampa, Pam Hayes, New York.

Pam, as I recall being a tangential victim of murder, losing someone to murder, when you first learn that in the hours, the weeks that follow, I couldn`t even focus. I couldn`t eat. I couldn`t drink a glass of water. Much less hear some lawyer talking to me about trial strategy. She turns away her preacher and brings in her defense lawyer?

PAM HAYES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: She`s got a real big problem, Nancy. I`ve been thinking about this. Since the time someone said that little girl was been missing from her mother for 30 days. I think this might be one of the cases that I could not try, because I can`t get beyond just admit. And you don`t need your lawyer to say that.

GRACE: I know. I know what you can`t get beyond, Pam Hayes.

HAYES: You know?

GRACE: You have a little girl. That`s why -- just like Sheriff Kevin Beary today, teared up, talking about this.

What about it, Episcopo, turns away the preacher, bring on the defense lawyer?

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s not going to end up in court. No one is ever going to hear that. It doesn`t make any difference.

GRACE: I didn`t ask you if it`s going to come in court.

EPISCOPO: Maybe she thinks.

GRACE: I didn`t ask you that. Why don`t you address what I asked you?

EPISCOPO: Well, I did. I said it`s not going to matter.

GRACE: I didn`t ask you if it was coming into court. I`m asking you what does it mean?

EPISCOPO: It doesn`t mean anything. It`s not going to hurt the case.

GRACE: OK. Let`s see if Allred says the same thing. Gloria?

GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIM`S RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Well, I think it certainly shows that she`s not -- apparently either in shock or not in need of counseling for that, because she has talked to her attorney. And at this point, I don`t think she`s going to be saying anything, including to her parents, because she knows whatever she says to them is going to be recorded.

This is a person who didn`t help to find her daughter. She gave various reasons for not wanting to help. She is in fear something might happen. Well, now her daughter is found deceased. Is she feeling guilty? Does she still know something that she doesn`t want to disclose?

GRACE: I mean, Gloria, look, you have a daughter, a beautiful daughter, a beautiful granddaughter. If you had heard this distressing news, I just don`t believe you, Gloria Allred, could get down to the brass tax and meeting with a lawyer, and mapping out courtroom strategy. I don`t believe it. I don`t believe it.

ALLRED: I think when you are -- if you`re a true victim, then you want all the support around you that you can get. And that -- and here, if she does talk to her spiritual advisor, to her minister, anything she says is going to be confidential.

GRACE: No.

ALLRED: He can`t disclose it, so she would be safe talking to him.

GRACE: But Leonard Padilla.

HAYES: There`s something wrong with her, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, that`s the understatement of the year.

HAYES: There`s something wrong with this person. It really is. And, you know, I just can`t get beyond, just tell us what happened. How could your child be missing for 30 days, and you find her and her skeletal remains? It has me -- I`m off with it. I can`t get beyond it.

GRACE: Leonard Padilla, weigh in.

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, ON LOCATION FROM ORLANDO, FLA.: Well, about a year ago, my daughter moved from California to Boulder, Colorado. She has three of my grandsons. And their cat got killed by a fox. And I was upset for a week. Can you imagine when a child -- dies?

GRACE: You know what, I can`t. I thought that I knew all about being a crime victim.

PADILLA: No, no.

GRACE: But now that I`ve had the twins, I can`t even.

PADILLA: No.

GRACE: . think about it.

I want to go to Tim Miller, the director of Texas EquuSearch. He has searched exhaustively, brought on volunteers, drummed up money for a search, has searched exhaustively through all types of conditions for this little girl.

Tim, what is your -- what was your reaction when you heard the news that this was little Caylee?

TIM MILLER, DIRECTOR, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH, SEARCHED FOR CAYLEE: You know, I wasn`t surprised at all, Nancy. I think last week when that body was found, it was pretty obvious that it was going to be Caylee. Of course, they had to do all of the testing and get positive I.D. but it`s -- you know -- even though all of the efforts we put into it, we weren`t prepared for it. It`s still a very, very sad story.

GRACE: But, Tim, Tim, even though we knew it up here, I think a lot of us didn`t want to know it here, in our hearts, until -- I mean you can`t argue with DNA.

But Tim Miller, how long do you believe Caylee`s body was in that area?

MILLER: From the -- back in June when she disappeared. I mean, I was taken to that spot, Nancy. I seen the grass was dead underneath a spot. You can see a little hole in the ground, just a little indentation where that body laid, and I don`t have any doubt after seeing that site that little Caylee was there that entire time, nobody put her there.

Afterwards, there is no conspiracy on that. That little baby was placed there. Casey Anthony let the entire country come and help search when gas prices were higher than any time in history.

GRACE: You`re right.

MILLER: I spent four days in the house with her, and not one time in four days, Nancy, did Casey Anthony say the word "Caylee." Not what can we do to help, or anything. It was just the oddest situation I`ve ever been in.

And Nancy, I remember when my own daughter`s body was found, Laura, after 17 months, I literally took a sigh of relief. At least I knew. And after 900-plus cases on little Caylee, I think I took that same sigh. And, you know, it`s just heart breaking for everybody involved.

GRACE: You`re right.

MILLER: And what an effort. What an effort.

GRACE: You`re right.

Out to the lines, Selena in Virginia. Hi, Selena.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I was wondering, how can the defense attorney say that the body was just placed there while she has been in jail, while the bones have been scattered everywhere.

GRACE: You know, Selena, I`ll tell you the bottom line is, because they don`t have anything else they can say. But very quickly, Gloria, can you respond to that?

ALLRED: Well, sure, because a defense attorney`s job is always to create doubt. So they`ll raise a thousand questions, as many as they can, about the body to try to place blame elsewhere, not on Casey.

GRACE: Everyone, quick break. We are taking your calls live. But as we go to break, happy birthday to Indiana friend of the show, Mary.

Mary, thank you for watching and happy birthday.

And tonight, on a happy, happy note, the twins couldn`t wait until Christmas to give me their present, and I want to share it with you. Here is my gift from little Lucy and baby John-David. Please look. They gave mommy these earrings. They each have their birth stone and their mommy and daddy`s birth stones.

This time, last year, all of us were just out of intensive care. And I believe your prayers and concerns made it possible for us to be together this Christmas. Thank you. And thank you to the twins.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: She`s beautiful. You know that, I know that. And I.

C. ANTHONY: I hear that every day. I know.

G. ANTHONY: I said, you know, that the photos of her are beautiful. But when you see her in front of you, the eyes.

C. ANTHONY: She`s captivating. She is absolutely captivating.

G. ANTHONY: She has a personality that`s -- so, so remarkable. We`ve got to get that little girl back anyway we can, and we`re doing everything we can.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People do care. And I think they even care even more when it`s a small child. So it will bring a little closure to the case. But, folks, closure is not done until after a fair and equitable trial.

So now we will be working with the state attorney`s office to make sure that we`re doing the very best we can at every level of government to help in this case to bring this case to a conclusion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The creep factor definitely on the rise, as you watch tot mom Casey Anthony behind bars weaving her story on and on and on. Now that we know this is little Caylee, it`s definitive, it has been decided by DNA at the FBI lab in Quantico, Virginia, and we hear this long, long story from the tot mom.

I want to go right out to Natisha Lance. What can you tell me about reports that authorities are positive that Caylee`s body was dumped, disposed of immediately after she was killed?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, ON LOCATION WHERE CHILD`S REMAINS FOUND: That`s correct, Nancy. According to a local report, this body was dumped very soon after she would have been killed. And according to the information that we received today from Dr. G., it`s a very likely possibility considering that there were only skeletal remains that were left.

GRACE: And Mike Brooks, what`s your theory?

MIKE BROOKS, FMR. DC POLICE DETECTIVE SERVED ON FBI TERRORISM TASK FORCE: You know, Nancy, I don`t know what the theory is. There have been so many now. You know they have said that she was found in her bathing suit and there were clothes. You know there have been so many speculative theories with the chloroform.

You know I`m waiting for the toxicology to come back, Nancy. We heard Dr. G say today that, well, we might not be able to get exactly what kind of levels are -- were -- you know, in that piece of bone or that hair. But still, the report is not finished yet. I have my faith that we might get a little something out of that.

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, what`s your theory?

PADILLA: I would go along with him on what he`s saying that I think that she was dumped.

GRACE: Well, he didn`t really say anything. He didn`t give me a theory.

PADILLA: Well, no, he`s waiting for the reports. My theory is that it was accidental.

GRACE: Your theory is that you`re waiting?

PADILLA: . because she overdosed her -- accidental on chloroform. As far as the toxicology coming in, it will come in and it will tell us.

GRACE: Accidental.

PADILLA: . because there`s an.

GRACE: Accidental death on chloroform?

PADILLA: She didn`t -- she didn`t mean to kill her. She acted on a horrible manner.

GRACE: You give a baby chloroform, and you -- that`s like.

PADILLA: To put her to sleep.

GRACE: . me pointing a pistol at you and shooting and saying oh, well, I only meant to scare you.

PADILLA: I know. I know. I know. But hear, the cops think she was dumped on the 18th or 19th. I think it was on the 24th or the 25th.

GRACE: I want to go to Drew Petrimoulx with WDBO. Cops have also had suggested that she was never out of the area. In other words, there was no Zanny the nanny that took her to Jacksonville or Texas, or anywhere else and then came back here to dump her.

Why do they say she never left the area?

DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO, ON LOCATION WHERE CHILD`S REMAINS FOUND: It`s -- she says -- Dr. G says it`s the summary of the evidence that was at the scene. They used -- there was a skeleton there. Some of the other things that they found at the site, they didn`t exactly specify what, but they said there is really no reason to think that this body was dumped there at a later time or that there was ever any, you know, co- conspirator in this case.

GRACE: To Mark Williams with WNDB who`s been reporting on the case from the very beginning.

Mark, what do you know about a bathing suit being found in that bag? Was the child wearing a bathing suit?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150, COVERING STORY: There have been conflicting reports about that, Nancy. There have been reports that there was clothing found in the -- in the bag of bones. Other reports say she was totally nude.

Right now, that is still up in the air, and the sheriff`s department and investigators have not released that. But remember, Casey at one time said they haven`t even found her clothes yet.

GRACE: You`re absolutely correct. I first heard that from Padilla.

Out to Lee Ann in Alabama. Hi, Lee Ann.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Your babies are beautiful. I love the pictures in the wagon.

GRACE: Thank you, dear. Thank you, very much. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a question and a comment.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One of your -- one of your associates had a gentleman, Mark Aglosh (ph) on Prime News today, and Mike Wallace, as well as Leonard Padilla was there. And my question with regards to the chloroform, he said whether it was the first time that she had chloroformed her in order to go out and party, or if it was the 50th time, that that would not cause first degree murder.

My question is, why would it not?

GRACE: Well that is complete and total BS, that`s a technical legal term, I think we can all understand that, because, Joe Episcopo, that in my mind would constitute felony murder.

EPISCOPO: Of course.

GRACE: In the middle of an aggravated assault.

EPISCOPO: Exactly.

GRACE: Chloroforming a child is an aggravated assault. That is a felony and a death occurred during the commission of a felony, and that will qualify for the death penalty, with a child under 12 in Florida. Response.

EPISCOPO: Well, first of all, it`s aggravated child abuse.

GRACE: Yes, it is.

EPISCOPO: That`s the enumerated felony. And yes, that is the best way to get a first degree murder conviction, which will result in life, no parole. I don`t think you`re going to get a death penalty case. You don`t even have a conclusive cause of death.

GRACE: So?

EPISCOPO: You don`t have the aggravating statutory aggravating factor.

GRACE: Come on, Episcopo. I have seen a death penalty.

EPISCOPO: You don`t have them.

GRACE: . come down when all that was left is a glass eye. That`s all that we had left of the body.

EPISCOPO: You don`t have the factors that the law requires for a death penalty.

GRACE: Not true.

EPISCOPO: You don`t have it, OK?

GRACE: Gloria? Gloria? And you know what, Episcopo, I give you this much. At least you anticipate what the other side is going to do. That`s the only way you can win a case.

Gloria, do you believe there is enough for the state to seek a death penalty?

ALLRED: Well, I think it`s going to be discretionary, Nancy, with the state...

GRACE: Of course.

ALLRED: . to decide whether to seek the death penalty or not.

GRACE: Of course.

ALLRED: But, yes, and perhaps they could also argue premeditated murder, as well as felony murder, because allegedly on her -- on the computer at home there was a search for chloroform many months before.

GRACE: Absolutely. Along, Pam Hayes, with household items as weapons, looking up all the ingredients to chloroform.

HAYES: The chloroform goes to her intent to just put the child asleep. As much as I don`t like the facts of this case and you can never win a child killing, you just can`t do it, you know, I can`t believe that she just wanted to kill this little girl.

GRACE: OK. You know what, Dr. Jeff Gardere.

HAYES: I don`t think it`s going to be a death penalty either.

GRACE: What about the use of duct tape? I mean you put it on a child`s mouth and nose, what do you think is going to happen?

GARDERE: Well, I think this is a situation where she didn`t care whether the child lived or whether the child was just injured or was a temporary way to restrain her. So I don`t buy what Pam is saying.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: As the search for a beautiful, sweet little Florida girl comes to an end, we stop and remember and say a prayer for 2-year-old Caylee Marie.

Let`s stop and remember Marine Sergeant Nicholas Walsh, 26, Millstadt, Illinois, killed, Iraq, on a second tour. Left study at Southwestern Illinois to re-enlist. From a long line of military vets, lost his life just hours after a last call to his wife.

Loved restoring cars, outdoors, skiing, snowboarding. Favorite place, Glacier National Park. Leaves behind parents Gerry and Donna, step-mom Maggie, two sisters, four brothers, widow Julie, son Tristin and Tanner.

Nicholas Walsh, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us and a special good night from California and Georgia, friends of the show, Dan, Steven, Taylor, Alden, Kyle, Kathy and Sarah. What a good looking bunch.

And tonight a special good night from the New York control room. Bret, Liz, Squeaky. Everybody else, see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern.

Tonight God bless Caylee. Good night, friends.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0812/19/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Police Search Anthony Home Again After Releasing Crime Scene

Aired December 22, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the desperate search for a beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses away from the Anthonys confirmed to be those of little Caylee, manner of death homicide, the little girl`s remains completely skeletonized, making cause of death nearly impossible to determine, Orange County investigators literally on their hands and knees for days, searching, searching for hundreds of tiny, undeveloped bones, this after a utility meter reader stumbles on a garbage bag and a skull, a tiny human skull, literally rolls out, covered in long, light-colored hair, hair still intact because of thick industrial duct tape wrapped around the child`s tiny head.
Tonight, police leave the scene, heading straight to the Anthony house, where the CSI unit executes yet another search warrant, seizing even more evidence, leaving George Anthony visibly upset. What do we know so far? Items taken include little Caylee`s and mom Casey Anthony`s clothing and shoes.

And tonight, the jail announces mom Casey will be banned from any memorial or funeral services for 2-year-old Caylee, a funeral now on hold while the defense seeks a second autopsy. As we go to air, we are waiting on toxicology and other test results. The scene where little Caylee`s remains found now released, but the defense still hasn`t shown up, after days of complaining and whining to get in. Why? Where are they? And the defense sets up their own tip line for leads they claim will prove the tot mom is innocent.

And tonight, primetime exclusive, the man tot mom once accused of being little Caylee`s biological father is on air with us tonight. But tonight, will there ever be justice for Caylee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The remains of a very little child are now unfolding a very big mystery.

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: My only concern is that Caylee comes back to us and she`s smiling and she`s happy and she`s -- that she`s OK. We`re going to get our little girl back and she`s going to be just as she was.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With regret, I`m here to inform you that the skeletal remains found on December 11 are those of the missing toddler Caylee Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No specifics yet on how and when the 2-year-old girl was killed, but authorities say she was a victim of homicide. Investigators are still waiting for toxicology reports. No tissue, though, was found on the bones, so experts are not optimistic they`ll be able to specify a cause of death.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the midst of grieving for their granddaughter, Caylee, Cindy and George Anthony were handed another search warrant. Less than five minutes after Orange County sheriff`s deputies cleared the crime scene a half mile away from the Anthonys, crime scene techs were entering their home. Investigators say that search warrant was obtained with probable cause from evidence gathered in the past few days. It`s likely that evidence could have come from the crime scene or an autopsy of little Caylee`s remains.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Tonight, the jailhouse bans tot mom from little Caylee`s funeral? Florida CSI back at the Anthony home, seizing clothes and shoes. Why? All this while the defense demands a second autopsy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I truly, truly love that little girl and miss her so much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caylee Marie Anthony`s last moments may always be a mystery. Investigators believe her mother, Casey, is the only one who knows what horror she might have suffered. They believe Casey is the one who researched neck-breaking and chloroform on her own computer as far back as nine months ago, three months before Caylee was killed. Orange County medical examiner Dr. Jan Garvaglia says there is no sign of trauma to Caylee`s bones. And as far as possible chloroform poisoning, the bones are clean of tissue, but even the hair that was found probably won`t help answer that question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It will be difficult to interpret levels from these specimens and thus will not be definitive in helping determine the cause of death.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But Dr. G. says the totality of evidence tells her Caylee was murdered -- evidence that her mother did not report her missing for a month, evidence that Caylee`s mother partied during that month, made incriminating statements...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re here because? We got here how, to do what?

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I lied. Because I brought you up here. And honestly, I was reaching for...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop right there. I want you to tell me how lying to us is going to help us find your daughter.

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not going to help.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... and evidence uncovered just recently that Caylee`s body was wrapped in a trash bag and dumped into the woods less than a half mile from Caylee`s home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just one day after the Anthonys learned of their granddaughter`s death, authorities searched the family`s house yet again. Investigators took clothing and shoes belonging to both Casey and Caylee, among other items.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Straight out to Mark Williams, news director at WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, CSI, Florida crime scene investigators, back at the Anthony home. Why?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, they just want -- they apparently found something, Nancy, at the crime scene during their nine-day search of that crime scene off of Suburban Drive in east Orlando, where they wanted to go back and check the house one more time. And they did about five minutes after the crime scene team left Suburban Drive and -- where the body of little Caylee Anthony was dumped.

And from what we understand they took clothing. They took shoes. They even took toys belonging to Caylee, and of course, clothing and shoes belonging to Casey Anthony. They were taken to the sheriff`s office, and they will be used as part of the investigation, Nancy.

GRACE: So you`re telling me, Mark Williams, that about five minutes after they finish the scene, they head straight to the Anthonys and execute another search warrant?

WILLIAMS: Three tenths of a mile away, Nancy. They didn`t waste any time. They found something there. They aren`t talking about that. But then they went back to the house, of course, and they even wrapped crime scene tape around the place -- around the Anthony home, as they did just a couple of weeks ago, Nancy.

GRACE: And to Natisha Lance, our producer standing by there at the remains site. Is it true, Natisha, that even though police have now released the site, the defense still hasn`t shown up to take a look?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s correct, Nancy. The defense was contacted about 11:30 in the morning, before the scene was released. And they said they will not be coming out here. There was no reason to come out because they felt as if the scene had nothing to offer them, so...

GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait! Did I just hear you say the defense said there`s no reason to see the crime scene? Did I hear that, or is my IFB completely fritzed out?

LANCE: No, your IFB is working. They said no reason for them to come out here. They would not be responding, coming out to see the scene.

GRACE: After all this time they`ve been screaming that they can`t see the scene, the scene gets released to them, and they don`t show up.

LANCE: That`s correct. And still have not even been out here, as of today.

GRACE: OK. We are taking your calls live. Let`s quickly unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight out of San Francisco, Daniel Horowitz. Also with me, Meg Strickler. Also with me, Darryl Cohen. I want to go first to you, Daniel Horowitz. Not go to the crime scene? Why?

DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, you know, if you`re invited to a party, then you show up. They were disinvited to the real examination of the evidence. Now the party`s over, and the judge says -- and the police say, Go to the scene. It`s over. It`s too late. They wanted to be there when the body was there, when the evidence was there. They got cheated, Nancy.

GRACE: OK. You know, I disagree. Darryl Cohen, the defense itself has been complaining they can`t get into the crime scene where little Caylee`s remains were found. Now the police have released the crime scene, and they`re saying they don`t need to see it. I mean, Darryl, you`ve been both a prosecutor for many, many years, and now a defense attorney for many, many years. Most people don`t get to go to the crime scene, defense attorneys, until time of the trial. This is an excellent opportunity for the defense. What`s their problem?

DARRYL COHEN, ATTORNEY FOR JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: I think, Nancy, what I mentioned the other night. They said they wanted to be there. they really did not want to be there. They asked to be there. They knew the judge would not allow it. They didn`t want to go to the party because if they were not at the party, now they can complain that any problem at all, any mistake by the forensic people they can try and jump on because if they were there and they went there now, they couldn`t have that and they wouldn`t have it.

GRACE: You know what? Meg Strickler, he`s right. Everybody, what this means is, they asked to see the scene with the judge. The judge said no. Now they`ve got a chance, but now they`re not going to go so they can set it up on appeal that this is a reversible error, that they were not allowed on the scene while it was being processed. Meg Strickler, agree or disagree?

MEG STRICKLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I totally agree with Mr. Cohen. They were properly filing the right motions, and now they have great appellate issues, should this go to trial and they lose.

GRACE: Straight back out to Natisha Lance, our producer there at the scene. Natisha, not that I`m not sure that they would want to go, but have the Anthonys been to the scene?

LANCE: No, they have not been to the scene, Nancy. Most of their outings that they`ve had so far -- they went to church on Sunday evening, but they have not been out and about too much since then.

GRACE: Natisha, what more can you tell me about this search that was executed on the Anthony home? My sources are telling me that Mr. Anthony was visibly upset. Now, before we go with that, how do we know that? Did someone actually see him?

LANCE: Apparently, they did see him in the doorway when he came to the door when the investigators came, saying, We have another search warrant to search the house. And from what onlookers are saying is that he appeared to be visibly upset about the situation. And I guess they`re dealing with it as best as they can. And once again, I did see George`s car outside of the house today, him walking to the door, and he just looks tired, Nancy. He looks like he`s been through it and he`s trying to cope with it as best as he can.

GRACE: There you see the video that Natisha Lance is describing, George and Cindy Anthony apparently both there. You also see that still in the doorway and in the windows, the family has up the posters "Where is little Caylee? Have you seen me?"

Mark Williams, what more can you tell me about the fact that the tot mom, according to the jail, will not be at a funeral or a memorial?

WILLIAMS: Boy, you hit that right on the head. Here`s the deal with this, is that thus far, no funeral service for little Caylee has been planned. A second autopsy was conducted. The remains will be given to a funeral home within the next day or so. And it`s jail policy that the tot mom will not be released. However, if somebody makes a request, that request could be -- could be honored.

GRACE: Mark Williams is with us. Everyone, when we come back, the ex-fiance of the tot mom is with us, this after the Anthony family appeared to accuse him.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, God. My heart is aching because I just want to be back with our family. In my gut every day, stronger and stronger, I know we`re going to see Caylee. I know she`s coming home. I can feel it. And I want you to know that.

CINDY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S GRANDMOTHER: I want her home now.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know, I want her home now.

CINDY ANTHONY: I want her home, so we can celebrate her 3rd birthday...

CASEY ANTHONY: I know.

CINDY ANTHONY: ... with the family again.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know. Every day, I can feel it, Mom. I know that I`m going to be home with you guys. I know she`s going to be home with us. Everyone just has to keep that faith because mine`s growing stronger every day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Every time I see that video of the tot mom visiting with her parents and I see the stricken look on Cindy Anthony`s face, where she`s just trying to hang onto anything the tot mom says that she can believe in -- she always has that same look. She`s just listening and listening, hoping.

Straight to Mark Williams, WNDB Newstalk 1150. Why is the jail now saying the tot mom will not be allowed to attend the funeral?

WILLIAMS: Well, there are obviously security concerns, and they really don`t let anybody out of jail to attend funerals. However, if there`s a request made by either her attorney, Jose Baez, and signed off by a judge, Allen Moore (ph) from the jail says they could accommodate that. But I don`t think you`ll see the tot mom at the jail.

Also, there`s a report out that the Anthonys are seeking donations for little Caylee`s funeral. That was one of the big stories tonight on one of the television stations here in town. And I ran that past a couple of people and they just could not believe that they would be asking for donations for their granddaughter`s funeral. They already have a trust fund set up already, and there`s a couple of thousand dollars in that, from what we understand, Nancy.

GRACE: What do you know about it, Natisha Lance? Are the Anthonys asking for money, for donations for the funeral?

LANCE: Actually, this is the first I`m hearing about that, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, we`ll find out. Thank you, Mark Williams.

Everybody, we are taking your calls live. And joining me right now in a primetime exclusive appearance is Jesse Grund. He is the ex-fiance of the tot mom, Casey Anthony. As you know, she at one point told him he was the biological father of little Caylee. He is being represented by veteran trial lawyer Darryl Cohen, who is joining us from New York. We are taking your calls live, along with Jesse and Darryl.

But first, I want you to hear this. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: How about Jesse? He`s been real close. Is there anything you want me to tell Jesse?

CASEY ANTHONY: I would like Jesse to stay as far away from you guys as possible. I`m saying that wholeheartedly and as calmly as possible.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know how much I trust him right now, and I even told Lee that. Lee is going to investigate a few people for me. I -- in my gut, I don`t know if I can trust him.

CINDY ANTHONY: Has Jesse ever watched Caylee in the last month or so while he was off work?

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK.

CASEY ANTHONY: The last time he watched Caylee was at his parents` house, when she was a baby. So that was -- 2006.

CINDY ANTHONY: OK. You know, his dad has been trying to reach out to your dad. His mom sent Lee an e-mail and said to tell us that they -- as much as the differences that they had with you, that they still know that you`re a good mom and that, you know, they want Caylee back, as well. So I want you to know that.

CASEY ANTHONY: I appreciate that. I mean, coming from his family, that means a lot. As far as Jesse as an individual, is very questionable for me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Out to Jesse Grund. Later, the Anthonys go on to mention your name to police. At this point, what are your thoughts?

JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-FIANCE: When I heard that they had mentioned my name to police, and when I heard the jailhouse tapes of what she had said, I was fairly shocked. I thought Casey and I had maintained some sort of trusting friendship over the years after our relationship had broken up and didn`t for one second think that either her or her parents would suspect me of doing any harm to Caylee whatsoever at all.

GRACE: Is that how you interpreted their comments, that they were naming you as a potential suspect to police?

GRUND: Well, I mean, their actual statement to police, Cindy does directly mention me as the person she thought was Zanny, the person who was watching Caylee. And that was after she actually had the meeting with Casey in the jailhouse.

GRACE: Why do you believe the tot mom would go to the trouble of saying, I don`t trust him?

GRUND: That`s really something you`re going to have to ask her. Nancy, to be honest with you, I don`t know that person. The person I was with and the person that sits in that jail -- I don`t know her.

GRACE: Tell me about the person you thought you were with. How is she different from the tot mom we`ve come to know?

GRUND: Casey was a totally different person when we were together. She was a loving mother. Her life revolved around how she was going to be a mom, her career as a photographer, which is what she wanted to do...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa! Career as a photographer? For all I know, she sat on the sofa for the last two years!

GRUND: I`m not saying she hasn`t sat on the sofa...

GRACE: Career as a photographer?

GRUND: Nancy, I`m not saying she hasn`t sat on the sofa. What I am saying is, is that when we were together, she worked for Kodak, as we all know, and she wanted to further that as a career as a photographer. She did have a job all the way up until April of 2006, which is confirmed.

GRACE: What did she do for Kodak?

GRUND: She was an assistant manager for one of their on-site stores that they had inside the theme park.

GRACE: Are you sure?

GRUND: Positive. That`s where I met her.

GRACE: Tell me something, Jesse. When you first learned that Caylee was missing, what did you believe?

GRUND: I didn`t believe in my heart that Casey could actually hurt her. I didn`t really think that it was anything more than Casey left her at Target, or you know, dropped her off -- I didn`t know the extent of it because I was...

GRACE: Why did you two break up?

GRUND: The first time, it was because she thought that -- you know, she broke off the engagement because she thought I loved Caylee more than I loved her, which was the furthest thing from the truth. I loved them both.

GRACE: You know what? That`s the first time I`ve ever heard that. She thought you loved Caylee more than her?

GRUND: Absolutely. Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: And you know, she has similar problems with her mother, concerned that the child looked to her grandmother as her mother. So this is a recurring problem with her?

GRUND: Well, that may be a little founded since Cindy did call herself Mommy to Caylee in front of Casey before.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They will always stand by their daughter. And I want to ask people to think about the fact that this is their only daughter and their only granddaughter, and their only daughter is charged with the first degree murder of their only granddaughter. That`s not -- that`s not something that you can imagine. I mean, you can think about it, but to actually be there is -- is horrendously difficult.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, we learn that police leave the crime scene and head straight back to the Anthonys` home, executing yet another warrant, leaving with bags of evidence out of the home, including clothing and shoes belonging to not only the tot mom but little Caylee, as well. We also learn the jail has put the kibosh on Casey Anthony attending her daughter`s funeral.

Also, Mark Williams, it`s my understanding the defense is demanding a second autopsy, but yet at this juncture, that autopsy has not been completed? Is that correct?

WILLIAMS: That`s my understanding right now, Nancy. The second autopsy was an option for the defense.

GRACE: OK. And to renowned pathologist Dr. Joshua Perper. He is the chief medical examiner in Broward County and author of "When to Call the Doctor." Dr. Perper, these remains are completely skeletonized. Every autopsy, well, most of them that I`ve seen, weigh the internal organs, they describe the body. What do you do in an autopsy when there`s nothing but a skeleton?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, BROWARD COUNTY CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, it`s a misnomer because this is really an examination of skeletonized remains, not an autopsy. So the only thing which they did, or the medical examiner did, examine the bone for any kind of broken bone or fracture and any kind of natural disease, which is very unlikely to be seen in this healthy child. So a second autopsy, there is no autopsy, and wouldn`t show nothing more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: I just want her back.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I know you do. You have to keep thinking positive. Positive feelings, Casey.

C. ANTHONY: Oh, I know. I have been. I`ve been staying as positive as I can.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The remains found in the woods last week are the remains of Caylee Marie Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our number one priority from day one was to locate little Caylee Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The cause of death will be listed as homicide by undetermined means.

C. ANTHONY: No one has once said anything for me, always -- that I love my daughter, that I want her safety. And that she and the rest of our family is my only concern.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony is already facing first degree murder and other charges in her daughter`s disappearance, charges filed before the remains were found.

Casey Anthony has pleaded not guilty. If convicted, the 22-year-old could be sentenced to life. Prosecutors said they will not seek the death penalty, although they could change their mind.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: After the discovery of the child`s skull completely bound in thick industrial duct tape, the state may be rethinking their decision not to seek the death penalty.

With us tonight is a very special guest and a primetime exclusive, Jesse Grund, the ex-fiance of the tot mom. The Anthonys actually suggested to police he could be a suspect, and we are taking your calls.

Out to the lines, Lisa in Oklahoma. Hi, Lisa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nancy!

GRACE: Hi, dear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love you so much. I`ve been watching you since you were Larry King`s sidekick.

GRACE: Bless you. Bless you. And thank you so much, and thank you for calling in, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, first of all, I want to tell you that little Lucy is the spitting image of you.

GRACE: Well, don`t tell my mother that, because she thinks she looks just like her, and they saw Santa today for the first time ever, and I`m going to show you those pictures in a few moments.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh good. Well, you.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, you need to put pictures of them after Christmas.

GRACE: I will.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. My question is, why would Leonard Padilla believe that Casey accidentally killed Caylee when Casey was searching neck-breaking, let alone duct taping her head and mouth?

GRACE: To Jesse Grund, you thought initially she was not involved. And I`m guessing that you still believe it was accidental?

JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S FORMER FIANCE: That`s tough for me to say. Again, I don`t know what this Casey is capable of. I know the evidence, of course, points in one direction. But I don`t know what she is capable of anymore. And I repeat myself.

GRACE: Well, let me ask you this. Search your heart. What do you believe?

DARRYL COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, JESSE GRUND`S LAWYER: I don`t mean to jump in, Nancy, but I think that what Jesse is trying to say is his heart is saying one thing, his head is saying something entirely different. And that makes a tremendous difficult decision for him to come out and say that.

GRUND: Trying -- trying to reconcile the two individuals together has been difficult for me. Because I remember the Casey that she was, and I try and see her for the person that she is now, that`s not the same person that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. And that -- that makes it a little bit harder when I try and put those two things together.

GRACE: Well, Jesse, you just said something actually that`s pretty profound. I once had a trial judge that would tell the jury that they must believe beyond a reasonable doubt in their head and in their heart to a moral and reasonable certainty.

So are you telling me that while you believe in your head that the evidence shows she`s guilty, in your heart, you still cannot believe it?

GRUND: It`s hard for me to accept that she would do anything to Caylee. It`s -- very difficult for me to accept that, Nancy. And I don`t mean that to be patronizing or condescending to anyone out there who believes otherwise.

But when you knew who Casey as she was, and you know what she was like around to Caylee and how much the two of us loved Caylee and doted on her, it`s -- difficult for me to actually commit to something like that.

GRACE: Jesse, what is your most vivid recollection of little Caylee?

GRUND: I`ve got a couple. You just said that your kids went to -- your children went to see Santa for the first time. Caylee`s first Christmas, they couldn`t make it to the mall for Santa pictures, so I went and bought a cheap Santa outfit and took pictures with her on my lap as Santa for her little holiday scrap book.

And, you know -- I`m -- I`m sorry. It`s rough, because every time I think about her, I realize that she`s gone. And that I`m not going to get her back. And that`s -- that`s hard. That`s hard.

GRACE: Jesse, why did the tot mom accuse you of loving little Caylee more than you loved her?

GRUND: I mean, it sounds like -- when I heard it, my response to her was -- because I got a paternity test done to prove that I was not Caylee`s biological father. And if I didn`t love Casey, wouldn`t that have been the perfect time for me to just go at that point?

But she didn`t want to hear that. She didn`t care at that point. And she wanted me to go from being Caylee`s father to just another guy in Caylee`s life.

GRACE: Because it seems to me, Jesse, that the kind of man I would want is somebody that does love the twins more than me, because they are now the most important thing on earth to me. So why did that -- why did Caylee end up being a reason that you guys broke -- I just don`t understand why that would be a break-up.

GRUND: You know, I think that may have been a front for something else. I mean, her behavior completely changed at the end of the relationship. She went from being a homebody who enjoyed watching movies and hanging out as a family and going out to dinner to somebody who blew off my brother`s graduation because she had a party the night before, and she was too hungover to show up.

So there was some definitive changes in her behavior. And I still have no explanation. I still can`t reconcile who she was and then who she became. It`s very difficult for me.

GRACE: Did you love little Caylee like she was your own child?

GRUND: A piece of paper couldn`t tell me not to love her like she was my daughter.

GRACE: Back to the lines, Amanda in Kentucky. Hi, Amanda.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I was wondering, is it true that Casey was spotted coming out of the woods with a shovel, and was it the same area of the woods that the body was found? And also, has the shovel been taken for evaluation as evidence?

GRACE: To Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter who first put up the bond for the tot mom and then went on to search exhaustively for little Caylee -- Leonard, I don`t think the truth of that sighting has ever been proven or disproven, but it`s not the same place. Wasn`t that sighting out by the Orlando International Airport?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, HELPED LOOK FOR CAYLEE ANTHONY: Yes. That`s correct. It`s a totally different area. It doesn`t -- it`s not even close to where they found the skeletal remains.

But let me, let me throw something in here that I think is important that I`ve been thinking about for about a week. At one time, and I think if you go back, you`ll find the.

GRACE: You`ve been thinking about it for a week, why couldn`t you tell me Friday night?

PADILLA: Because I didn`t know exactly what it meant until today when I discussed it with Rob.

GRACE: OK.

PADILLA: What happened is, George is saying that he`s got people being followed that he knows.

GRACE: I remember that.

PADILLA: . who`s got Caylee.

GRACE: And they`re being surveilled.

PADILLA: They`re being surveilled. And then we got to talking about Dominic, his private detective, and another fellow by the name of Jim Hoover. And we thought, well, why hasn`t, you know, somebody like the FBI, for instance, Nick Savage, gone and asked George if these are the two private detectives that were following the suspects.

I think it`s very important.

GRACE: Because?

PADILLA: If they were following somebody, they`re going to say, this is who it was. I don`t think they were following anybody.

GRACE: So you`re saying if there was somebody in mind by the Anthonys, that could be a potential killer, a suspect, is that what you`re saying?

PADILLA: Yes, sure. But.

GRACE: OK, got it.

PADILLA: Listen, let me tell you why I know it`s not true. The very first night we got there, we met with the Anthonys, Lee, Cindy and George. And 100 percent of the conversation was directed at convincing us that Jesse had the child or had done something to the child.

We met the very next morning with Jose Baez, and he drag out a card that proved how innocent statements about love for a child and a woman can be contorted into making us believe, and they really, really worked on it, that Jesse had something to do with it, Jesse had the child, Jesse had harmed the child.

Two different instances within 24 hours.

GRACE: With us, Leonard Padilla, who actually searched exhaustively for little Caylee. And as we go to break, we are taking your calls live.

But now at your request, new photos of the twins. They`ll be online tonight. Here they are with Santa. They asked for lots of bottles to learn to walk, to kiss my sister, brother, every day, to see my grandparents a lot. They would like hair, teeth, and love.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY: During the whole time when I was sitting there talking to Jesse that Saturday after all of this happened, when he was in my home, he -- was sure of all of his -- you know, he was sure about -- now, you haven`t talked to Caylee or Casey during this whole time frame? Absolutely not. Are you absolutely sure? Absolutely not.

So that was a big red flag when he changed his story from going to the media that he didn`t see Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the 24th.

CINDY ANTHONY: Yes, or even that he had heard Caylee`s voice because he maintained the whole time that the babysitter had her from what Casey said, and that was not he believed all that so.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We learned police leave the crime scene, and head straight to the Anthony home, leaving with bags of evidence. This just recently -- this is just about the third search they have done on the Anthony home.

George Anthony appearing visibly upset with police, came with a warrant to look at the home.

We are taking your calls live.

We also learn the jail has announced the tot mom will be forbidden from attending the funeral.

Out to the lines. Amanda in Kentucky. Hi, Amanda. I think I`ve got Amanda in Kentucky?

Jennifer in Maine, hi, Jennifer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have a question for Leonard, if I could.

GRACE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wondering the date of the incident in which Casey would not let her father near the trunk in the garage, what the date of that incident was. And on that day, was the area that the body was found in, was it flooded at that point?

GRACE: Interesting. To Leonard Padilla, in a nutshell -- when -- when did George Anthony and the tot mom have an altercation when she wouldn`t let him look in the trunk? And Hurricane Faye didn`t come until the end of August.

PADILLA: That particular incident was on the 24th, in the afternoon of the 24th.

GRACE: The 24th of July?

PADILLA: June. June, June.

GRACE: June 24th.

PADILLA: 24th.

GRACE: OK. Thank you.

Back out to the lines, Amber in Michigan. Hi, Amber.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Beautiful pictures.

I have a question regarding the police officer or officers that Casey had dated.

GRACE: That was a nice way to put it. Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Were they ever thoroughly questioned during this investigation? Had anyone ever theorized that possibly they assisted her, her being Casey and ways of possibly how to cover up the murder?

GRACE: Interesting. Out to Mark Williams with WNDB, it`s my recollection that both the officers said the tot mom had dated were questioned.

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Yes, they were questioned. As a matter of fact, one of them decided just to resign. He worked for the Orange County Sheriff`s Office for a very short time.

And I don`t think they assisted in -- any sort of a cover-up whatsoever. The one, the rookie, basically, I don`t think had the -- had the wherewithal to cover up any sort of a murder.

GRACE: Out to John Lucich, former investigator and author of "Cyber Lies."

John Lucich, what do you make of the jail forbidding the tot mom to go to the funeral?

JOHN LUCICH, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "CYBER LIES": I think it`s a standard procedure. I think any time you have someone who is that much of a threat, or could be harmed, puts the sheriff`s office in a precarious situation.

I think for security purposes right there, to cover them, they need to do that, and I think it`s the right thing to do.

GRACE: And John Lucich, why did the cops yet again go back to the Anthony home after closing down the crime scene?

LUCICH: It`s very clear that what they found at the crime scene was very evidentiary. And what they`re looking for, especially when they took shoes, maybe they`re looking for a shoe print that was found on the girl`s clothing or embedded on to the duct tape. Maybe they`re looking for fibers when they took the clothes that they found with the body.

This -- a host of things but they -- they were very clear when they went. They went back very quickly.

GRACE: Right.

John, I find it very difficult to believe, unless the perp was wearing gloves. I just have to stop every time I see this video of little Caylee. That there are no fingerprints, hair, fiber, nothing on that duct tape?

Lucich?

LUCICH: Oh, I`m sorry. I thought you were talking to somebody else. No, it`s very -- remember, this body was under water for so many times, and remember, it was Tim Miller who said that he had to call off the search, because he actually lost a four wheeler in that area.

So water and the elements can do so much to erase DNA and lots of other types of evidence.

GRACE: Do we have Dr. Perper yet? OK.

Dr. Perper, do you believe that even being submerged in water that duct tape, thick industrial duct tape, would still have evidentiary clues, such as fingerprints? Or would water get rid of any potential fingerprints?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": Well, this is not mathematical. It could have -- the tape, which is sticky, could have still some fingerprints stick to it. But certainly water would disturb the initial condition of the tape. So it`s a question of what the findings are. It`s possible, but not necessarily so.

GRACE: To Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, the family has remained silent, essentially, since the remains were identified as Caylee`s. They also have not been to the jail at all to visit the tot mom. Thoughts?

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, when they`re probably shuttling between feeling numb and continuing their ongoing denial. But these people have got to be devastated.

It`s possible that Casey didn`t want them there, that she didn`t want to be burdened with their emotions, with their grief, although they rationalize it by saying, no, it`s going to be public record, we can`t say anything to her.

GRACE: Back to Jesse Grund, the ex-fiance of the tot mom Casey Anthony. Jesse, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there any reason that you have outside intuition to believe that Jesse may or may not be involved in Caylee`s disappearance?

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I believe that Jesse -- again, this is just my feelings, I believe that Jesse is very jealous of the relationships that Casey has had after they were.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: When you hear this, do you bear anger toward the Anthonys, or is your heart softened to them after their loss?

GRUND: Look, I believe that the Anthonys are grieving grandparents, so our differences aside, I want to give them time to grieve, you know.

GRACE: Right.

GRUND: Things can be addressed at another time. But as of right now, they are grieving grandparents. Again, a lot of what they have said is not congruent with what I would consider the truth about my feelings, and about who I am as an individual. However, they are going through something right now that I would not wish on my worst enemy.

GRACE: Back to the lawyers. We are taking your calls live.

Darryl Cohen, veteran trial lawyer who is representing Mr. Grund, Meg Strickler out of Atlanta, Daniel Horowitz out of San Francisco.

Daniel, if the defense wants to blame somebody else they better stick with an imaginary figure, like Zanny the nanny, not somebody live that can walk into the courtroom and say, that is BS, like Jesse Grund.

DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s a fact.

I mean, Jesse, you are a remarkable young man. And that family and Caylee were so fortunate to have you in their lives. And the defense better keep far away from you. They`d better make you their hero if they want to have any credibility with the jury.

GRACE: And to Meg Strickler, apparently, the defense is still sticking with the nanny did it.

MEG STRICKLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, they are. And they`re just going to have to try and come up with some reasonable doubt here. That`s all they needed to do, some sort of reasonable doubt. They`re going to be grasping at whatever they can here.

GRACE: And to Darryl Cohen, do you recall they`ll stick with that at trial?

COHEN: I hope they`re not that foolish. It should be the unknown nanny.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Back to Natisha Lance, our producer there at the scene where little Caylee`s remains were discovered.

Natisha, what are police doing to kind of protect the scene at this point, even though it`s been closed? It`s over. The police search is over.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, this is actually private property, Nancy. And there are some "no trespassing" signs that have been put up. Bu But there is at least one deputy who`s out here tonight, kind of out here for our protection, not necessarily because of anything that they think is going to happen to the scene.

GRACE: And finally, back to Jesse Grund who was once told he was the biological father of little Caylee. Will you be attending the funeral?

GRUND: Well, that`s dependent on if the Anthonys invite me. Of course, I`m going to want to be there for Caylee`s memorial. But one way or another, for those of us that don`t get invited, if Anthonys don`t invite me and my family, those that they have associated with, we`re going to have our.

GRACE: Jesse, how has this affected your life?

GRUND: You know I`m never going to be able to replace Caylee. I`m never going to be able to replace that portion of my heart that I had that I gave to her. But this case is -- all of us were involved, it has followed us around and it will continue like a cloud.

There is a -- those accusations that they have.

GRACE: Right.

GRUND: . thrown against me have been proved to be incorrect and.

GRACE: Jesse.

GRUND: . it`s always going to be there.

GRACE: . you`ve remained strong throughout, thank you for being with us.

Everyone, let`s stop and remember Marine Lieutenant Colonel Max Naliai, 42, Pagopago, American Samoa, killed Iraq. On a second tour. Worked with Iraq police and army. Over 20 years of service. Awarded two Bronze Stars, Purple Heart, five service medals.

An Oregon state grad. Dedicated to family. Loved e-mailing jokes. Leaves behind mom, Kalala, four sisters, two brothers, widow Evelyn, four children.

Max Naliai, American hero.

Thanks to our guests and especially to you for being with us. And tonight, thank you to Monica and Sissy in Campbell for these darling stockings for Lucy and John David. And special goodnight the twins to Germany and New Jersey friends of the show, Sebastian and Megan.

And from precious future crime fighters in Georgia, Ann, Mary, Michael, Abby and Taylor.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night. 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night and Happy Hanukkah.

END

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0812/22/ng.01.html

[Blonde]

NANCY GRACE

Lee Anthony`s Attorney Says He Might Be Charged

Aired December 29, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JEAN CASAREZ, GUEST HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the case of missing 2-year-old Florida toddler Caylee Anthony. After months and months of searching throughout the Orlando area, a local meter reader calls authorities after finding a bag containing skeletal remains in a heavily- wooded area just yards from the home of Caylee`s grandparents, George and Cindy Anthony, the remains later identified as those of little Caylee, the medical examiner revealing the manner of death to be homicide, but the cause of death remains a mystery.
Headlines tonight. Will Casey Anthony`s brother, Lee, face criminal charges? His attorney is saying the state may seek to charge Caylee`s uncle with obstruction of justice or aiding and abetting. Meanwhile, we anxiously await results from additional forensic testing done on Caylee`s remains, as well as a report from CSI experts who thoroughly searched the remains site for more evidence.

And also tonight, investigators are said to be focusing in on computer searches shortly before Caylee went missing. At the same time that someone in the Anthony home was searching neck-breaking, how to make chloroform, they also were searching for a television episode centered around a child`s kidnapping. Who was the kidnapper in that show, you ask? Why, the nanny, of course.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY`S BROTHER: We love you. And you know, please think of anything that we can help find Caylee because the sooner we can help find her, it`s going to be, you know, open and shut to get you out of there, OK, darling?

CASEY ANTHONY, MISSING TODDLER`S MOTHER: Absolutely. I know.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony`s brother, Lee Anthony, could reportedly be facing criminal charges, including obstruction of justice or aiding and abetting. According to an attorney claiming to be an adviser to Lee Anthony, the state attorney`s office may hand down charges against Caylee`s uncle, even if he never intended to commit a crime.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: (DELETED) Baez. I don`t give a (DELETED) (INAUDIBLE) (DELETED) anything else. Our focus is on Caylee.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also today, according to reports, someone at the Anthony home was searching for a specific episode of a television program where a child is kidnapped by the nanny.

LEE ANTHONY: My mother immediately goes, Who took her? Who took her? And then Casey goes, The nanny did. She was kidnapped, Mom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: And good evening. I`m Jean Casarez of "In Session," in for Nancy Grace tonight. Stunning developments. Is Casey Anthony`s brother, Lee Anthony, in legal trouble? The attorney advising him says Lee could face charges of obstruction of justice. And tonight, investigators reportedly focus in on computer searches inside the Anthony home. Do searches about a television show give new insight into Casey Anthony`s Zenaida Gonzalez story?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: More like a hand. You`re the middle finger, which is funny, because you are the big guy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An attorney claiming to be an adviser to tot mom Casey Anthony`s brother, Lee Anthony, says Caylee`s uncle could face criminal charges. The adviser says that even if Lee Anthony were not aware that he was doing something illegal, the state could still seek obstruction of justice or aiding and abetting charges against him.

LEE ANTHONY: I know you`re going to meet with, you know, the investigators and everything. You know, is there anything specifically, the details that you want to clarify to me now, so when I`m following up on my own leads and my own information, putting this stuff together, you know, that I can start working on it now?

CASEY ANTHONY: At the moment, there`s nothing to consider (ph), or nothing that, you know, should probably be said here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meanwhile, computer records reportedly show a search for the 100th episode of a television show where a nanny is suspected of kidnapping a child.

LEE ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) to be looking for the nanny`s place. Would it be advantageous of me to look in areas that are familiar to another friend that you may have?

CASEY ANTHONY: That would be pretty much on the money.

LEE ANTHONY: We`re going to find Caylee, and that`s it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: Let`s go straight out to Mark Williams, news director for WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, what`s the latest?

MARK WILLIAMS, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Well, Jean, the latest, of course, is could Lee Anthony be charged with obstruction of justice? Well, that may not happen anytime soon. The investigators right now are wrapping up all their loose ends into the Casey Anthony case right now, involving little Caylee Anthony. The state attorney`s office has not been asked to, of course, press charges against him as of yet.

But his attorney, Tom Luka, here in Orlando says Lee has been investigating. But if you have followed this show since at least July 24, that has not been the case. Lee Anthony told his parents at one time, Do not -- do not take any polygraph tests that have been administered or they want to administer to you. And secondly, you know, the lawyer says, Well, he gave up his DNA. That`s a -- a bunch of bull because they needed a search warrant for him to get his DNA. That`s the only way he ever cooperated was search warrants and through intimidation.

CASAREZ: So these would be very, very serious charges. And this is coming tonight from the attorney advising Lee Anthony.

Let`s go out to Jane Velez-Mitchell, who is the host of "Issues With Jane Velez-Mitchell." Jane, you just spoke with attorney Thomas Luka. What really struck you as you spoke with him?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, "ISSUES": Well, he wouldn`t tell us why his client might be facing these obstruction of justice issues or the aiding and abetting. And I asked him, I said, Could it be that Casey asked the brother to do something that he thought was an innocent request and later turned out to be incriminating? He said, No, you`re absolutely wrong. And I said, Well, did he throw something out of the house that he thought was something that he could just innocently dispose of that later turned out to possibly be important information or evidence? He said, Absolutely no.

So he wouldn`t say why. But he says reading the tea leaves, he`s getting the idea that authorities are gearing up to charge his client. And what`s so bizarre about is, usually, a lawyer doesn`t want to plant that idea in the authorities` heads and give them any ideas about charging your client. So for it to come from the attorney is really strange.

CASAREZ: It is strange. Well, let`s listen to attorney Thomas Luka in his own words.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

THOMAS LUKA, ATTORNEY FOR LEE ANTHONY: No charges are pending as of yet. What we are concerned with, however, is that here in Florida, the laws regarding tampering with evidence and obstruction of justice are extraordinarily broad, as opposed to other states. And because of that, there is some concern that some activities that -- that Lee might have been involved with during the investigation might have -- be seen by law enforcement to be misleading or to be in some way hindering the investigation. And that`s what we`re trying to make clear, that throughout this investigation, he has been cooperating fully.

Mr. Anthony is not -- did not throw anything out. In fact, he has talked to Casey several times in the jail at law enforcement`s request in the search for his niece. He has been fully cooperating with police, including giving a DNA sample.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: And let us go out to the attorneys right now. We can`t wait any longer. Susan Moss, family law attorney, child advocate, prosecutor Holly Hughes, defense attorney Doug Burns and George Prothro, also a defense attorney.

First to Doug Burns. Tell me why it would be advantageous for an attorney who is advising Lee Anthony right now to come out on national television, saying his client is truly being investigated by the Orange County Sheriff`s Department?

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I can`t, Jean, and that`s the problem. I find it highly unusual. I`ve been practicing criminal law 23 years. I`m not going to malign the gentleman, but by the same token, I find it highly unusual that an attorney would publicly say to the media, you know, By the way, they`re, you know, likely to be charging my client with a crime. I don`t see any merit to that.

CASAREZ: To prosecutor Holly Hughes. These would be very, very serious charges because I`ve been researching the Florida law, and initially, the attorney said aiding and abetting. I cannot find a criminal statute of aiding and abetting under Florida law. I do find accessory under the fact, which can be a first degree or a second degree felony. I also find, obviously, obstruction of justice. Now he`s saying tampering with evidence. What do you make of it?

HOLLY HUGHES, PROSECUTOR: What I make of it is he knows a heck of a lot more than he`s telling us. And obviously, because of attorney/client privilege, he has to keep so much of it secret. But he knows that Lee is in this up to his neck, Jean, because otherwise, he`s not out there trying to taint the jury pool and, Oh, feel sorry for this family, and, They`re going after George and Cindy, and now they might be going after Lee.

And I think what he`s trying to do is put it out there that the prosecutor is a big bad wolf and they`re going after this grieving family, so that if and when Lee gets charged, they can say, Oh, you know, they`re over the top. Not only are they going after Casey, they`re going after everybody else.

But when he starts throwing around terms like "tampering with evidence," "aiding and abetting," I`m also thinking of party to a crime, depending on what he did, Jean. You know, he could be charged as, you know, not only tampering, but also as a party to whatever crime Casey committed, if he was part and parcel. You know, they say in for a penny, in for a pound, Jean.

CASAREZ: Well, Holly, it`s interesting you say that because if you look at the indictment and if you look under count two, which is aggravated child abuse, the prosecutor leaves it open for somebody else to be involved in this case. It is right there in black and white. It is interesting.

To George Prothro, defense attorney. What I want to ask you is, after the remains were found on December 11, George and Cindy Anthony were asked to give their fingerprints. They voluntarily gave it to law enforcement. But what we understand is that Lee Anthony waited until he was face to face with a subpoena before he did that and gave his fingerprints. Did he know something at that point?

GEORGE PROTHRO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I don`t think, you know, he knew anything at that point. I think it`s very hard to speculate at this point on the evidence that we have with the information that we have. But what I do think he may have been trying to do is to make sure that he was protecting his rights by waiting until he was required by subpoena to provide that information. He has protected his rights if charges are later brought against him, if he is later added to the indictment. And if he has to go to trial, then that produces some issues at trial that may protect any evidence or protect his rights against any evidence that may have been brought in based on the evidence collected with that subpoena.

CASAREZ: But to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter -- he helped search for Caylee from day one, practically. That`s really what I`m driving at because if George and Cindy Anthony voluntarily gave their fingerprints after the remains were found, but Lee Anthony -- and he has every constitutional right to not do it voluntarily, but doesn`t that mean that he may have information that an investigation was ongoing in regard to him at that point?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Lee not giving up his fingerprints voluntarily is a red herring. His situation is there`s a daisy chain that extends from Casey all the way to the meter reader, Kronk. They`re trying to fill in the spaces as to who carried the message where the body was so that the meter reader could find it after the fourth try.

Lee probably is the major suspect in the daisy chain because he`s the one that had contact with Casey, and semi-coded messages were possibly passed from her to him. He, in turn, dealt with Hoover and the other private investigator, Dominic, eventually ending up with the information in Kronk`s lap.

CASAREZ: But Leonard, what are your facts to back that up right there, your theory?

PADILLA: Hoover showed me a video that he took of Dominic filming the area for about a minute-and-a-half exactly where the body was found. On the -- on the date, it says November 15.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: That`s when she opened up to me and said, Mom has thrown it in my face many times before that I`m an unfit mother, and you know, maybe she`s right. Maybe I am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lee says partly because of that atrocious smell in the car, their mother angrily confronted Casey about her claim that the nanny took Caylee, telling Casey, quote, "We could have found her a month ago. Why did you wait? What have you done?"

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re more afraid of your mom`s reaction than you are if you ever see your daughter again?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, I`m absolutely petrified, absolutely petrified. I know my mom will never forgive me.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

LUKA: They have not yet issued him a subpoena for his trial testimony. That subpoena would give him immunity to anything he would say in a court of law. They have not -- the state attorney`s office has not issued a subpoena for him yet, and that is what troubles me, at least, as far as whether there might be charges on the horizon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: But Lee Anthony is on the prosecution`s witness list, as is George and Cindy Anthony.

Welcome back. I`m Jean Casarez of "In Session," sitting in for Nancy Grace. Stunning news today out of the mouth of the attorney that is advising Lee Anthony, the brother of Casey Anthony, saying that it is very, very possible that Lee Anthony could be charged with a number of felony charges in this case. He is currently, according to Thomas Luka, being investigated by the Orange County Sheriff`s Department.

Let`s go out to Kathy in New York. Good evening, Kathy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, hi, Jean. How are you?

CASAREZ: Fine, thanks. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just have a question for Leonard Padilla. When he first bonded Casey out, he was convinced of her innocence. What changed his mind when he was around the family that now he doesn`t believe that?

CASAREZ: Good question. Leonard?

PADILLA: The lab results from the Tennessee body farm and also the FBI labs. I`ve said it a thousand times. I`m old-fashioned. I believe in the FBI lab, and definitely know they -- they know what they`re doing. I mean, they`re 100 percent. Very seldom are they off. They`ve had a couple of incidents in the past, but not this time.

CASAREZ: Now, those results, Leonard, did not come in until this fall, I believe, late summer, early fall. How did you reconcile all of the mistruths, the lies, that were evident through the entire months of the summer?

PADILLA: Well, the thing about it is that we had bailed her out, and a week later is when the results came out, in mid-August. By that time, if you`ll look at the timeline, Kronk had made three attempts on the 11th, 12th and 13th Of august to actually find the remains. Somebody was tipping him to the area but not exactly to where that bag was.

CASAREZ: Now, why do you believe somebody was tipping a meter reader, who had that vicinity to read meters in this near the Casey Anthony home -- why do you believe he was tipped off?

PADILLA: On two occasions, I believe the second time and fourth time, when he actually found the body, said he had to relieve himself -- if you`ll notice in the first, second or third tape, he starts to say that that`s where he was going, to relieve himself. Two instances, he mentions, Well, there was a dead snake back there, something to that effect. There`s no way you`re going to stop on that road to -- to go relieve yourself down that slope and into those woods when you`ve got a friend that works with you right around the corner. You can go and use the bathroom in his home.

CASAREZ: Well, to Drew Petrimoulx, reporter from WDBO radio, what`s the general consensus, the opinion of the meter reader? Because it`s my thought that if there is a meter reader and his area is near the Casey Anthony home and everybody is looking for Caylee, I would sort of have an unofficial duty, a feeling inside of me that I needed to look out. Everyone was trying to find Caylee Anthony. Why shouldn`t the meter reader, too?

DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, I mean, coming from the sheriff`s office, they have basically said that he has shown no signs of being guilty, they don`t suspect him as being involved in the disappearance and eventual finding of the murdered body.

But you know, it is a strange story. He went out there three times and back in August, and he obviously thought he saw something out there. He called police out there. They weren`t able to find it. He comes back five months later and finds the body in the same spot. It`s a really close area to the Anthony house. So while there`s been no direct linkage between him and the death of Caylee, it`s just a strange story. It`s hard for people to swallow. But there`s no direct connection as of yet.

CASAREZ: But if he`s a meter reader and he`s walking around doing his duties, maybe he`s going to be looking for whatever he may find. And we don`t know if what he saw in August is the same thing that he saw December 11.

Let`s go out to Kim in Michigan. Good evening, Kim.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Jean. There were reports about Casey making a phone call to J.C. Penney`s and possibly purchasing two cross necklaces. Has that been verified? And then -- because there was video on your show where, when she was rearrested, she was wearing a cross necklace. Has that second one ever been found, or could it be with the remains, do you think?

CASAREZ: Well, let`s ask Mark Williams, news director WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark?

WILLIAMS: Well, that`s news to me. The only cross that I know of is the one that Leonard Padilla found on the little bank -- or the banks of the Econ River, when he had divers in the water looking for little Caylee. And that was allegedly a home-made cross.

But that cross could have also come from -- from a murder case that happened just a couple of weeks before that, when Michelle Ganguzza (ph) went missing. She was a jogger, and they eventually found her body. And again, that`s the first time I`ve heard the possible purchase of some crosses at J.C. Penney.

CASAREZ: Well, you know what? I think Kim is saying that it`s so important -- many times in circumstantial cases, the devil is in the details. It can be extremely important.

Let`s go to a detail right now involving a computer search that was done around the time of March of this year when other computer searches were how to make chloroform, neck-breaking, were made all at the same time. Drew Petrimoulx, reporter from WDBO radio, tell us about that computer search for a TV show?

PETRIMOULX: Right. Well, as you said, there were searches for chloroform and household weapons and neck-breaking. Well, we also have learned now that there was also a search for "One Tree Hill" 100th episode. And in that episode, if you look through what transpires, the baby-sitter actually kidnaps a kid from a wedding and is holding him in a hotel room. He is eventually recovered.

But now there`s speculation, is that where Casey came up with the whole Zenaida Gonzalez story? You remember she claims that her baby-sitter took Caylee and basically never returned her. So now there`s speculation, is that where she came up with the idea, from an episode on a TV show?

CASAREZ: All right. Let`s go to John Lucich, former investigator and author of "Cyber Lies." You are a forensic investigator specializing in computer searches. How important will this search be? And is the timing of it in March around those other searches critically important for the prosecution?

JOHN LUCICH, FORMER INVESTIGATION, "CYBER LIES" AUTHOR: Absolutely, it is, because it`s going to go to show premeditation. But the one step they have to make in order to be able to use this really conclusively is to tie her to it. And based on what I see with the computer searches done so far, they haven`t been able to do that.

They have to take those dates and times and actually check the computer to see if there`s other dates and times that are around the same that says that she and only she could have been on the computer at the date and time that these searches were done.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You said the sister told you that, Because I`m a spiteful (DELETED)

LEE ANTHONY: Uh-huh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did she yell that so Mom could hear it, or she just whispered that to you, or what was the context of...

CASEY ANTHONY: She didn`t whisper it. She didn`t -- she didn`t also say it -- necessarily make it a point to say it as loud so my mom can hear it. When I asked her, Why won`t you, you know, allow us to see Caylee, and she said, Well, maybe I`m a spiteful (DELETED)

(END AUDIO CLIP)

CASAREZ: And I`m Jean Casarez of "In Session," sitting in for Nancy Grace. Well, in addition to the attorney who is advising Lee Anthony publicly saying that his client, Lee Anthony, brother of Casey Anthony, is under investigation by the Orange County Sheriff`s Department, there is also brand-new information from a private investigator by the name of Dominic Kerry (SIC).

Now, he used to work for the defense, Jose Baez. He is now working for George and Cindy Anthony. And he says that he took a video of the area where the remains were found months ago, but they looked very different. Let`s go back out to Mark Williams, news director for WNDB Newstalk 1150. Mark, what`s that all about?

WILLIAMS: Well, what it`s all about is, all of a sudden, this tape has allegedly surfaced which -- from mid-November which shows Mr. Casey shooting videotape or videotape shot by him in the area where they found the body a little less than a month later.

Orange County sheriff`s office investigators want to talk to Mr. Casey. However, one of the deals is, is the fact that he used to work for Casey Anthony`s attorney, Jose Baez. Now, Mr. Baez has gone to court asking for a special master to be assigned to the case, saying that special master should be in -- should be present when the cops talk to the private investigator because Mr. Baez doesn`t want any privileged information to be released. Basically, he thinks the cops are leaning heavily on Mr. Casey.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything you told us is a lie. You`re looking me in the eyes. You`re looking at -- everything you told us is a lie, every single thing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey began to break down and cry. And she said, Lee, do you want to know the truth? I haven`t seen Caylee in 31 days. Her hands are in her face, and she is crying.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re tired of the lies. No more lies. What happened to Caylee?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey seems to be asking you here, if it you want her to bring the little snot in. I`m assuming the little snot is -- who?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you believe that when she is referring to the little snot head here, she is talking about her daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

THOMAS LUKA, ATTORNEY FOR LEE ANTHONY: There is a great deal of rumor and speculation and innuendo surrounding this entire case. I think that Mr. Anthony is simply being caught up in the periphery of this. He was running a parallel investigation with -- to the police, looking for his niece. Any money that was spent was spent appropriately. There was no misuse of funds. There was no appropriation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: That is a separate issue, I believe, from obstructing justice. The information here is coming in fast and furious. I`m Jean Casarez of "IN SESSION," sitting in for Nancy Grace tonight. Jim Hoover, private investigator, is who allegedly took the video of the very same area where the remains were found. But Dominic Casey was the center of a defense motion filed just today by Jose Baez, asking for a special master to oversee any questioning of this private investigator.

Let`s go to a caller. Roz in Colorado, thanks for waiting. Hi, Roz.

CALLER: Hi, Jean. Thank you for taking my call. What I`m wondering is, if the defense team uses Zenaida Gonzalez`s name as part of their defense, even though the only known Zenaida Gonzalez has been cleared of any wrong-doing, I`m wondering if Zenaida can sue the defense team for defamation of character, if they continue to use her name?

CASAREZ: Well, let me tell you, the Zenaida Gonzalez that was the focus initially of this investigation, she has filed a civil suit against Casey Anthony. So that has already been done, which is very interesting, because we don`t think there is a lot of money there. But based in principle, this young woman believes her name has been ruined.

I want to go to a very, very special guest right now. Dr. Joshua Perper, he is the chief medical examiner of Broward County. He is the author of the book, "When to Call The Doctor." He is nationally renowned. He is actually the forensic pathologist that determined the cause of death of Anna Nicole Smith in Florida. It`s an honor to have you with us tonight. Thank you so much.

I want to ask you a question, because I think what is so important in this case, and the results are yet to be known, is forensically what will be found on any duct tape that was around the head, around the mouth, any area of the torso. Here`s what I want to ask you: if the prosecution would bring the death penalty to this case, I think it would be important to find out if the duct tape was put on while Casey Anthony was alive. And I want to ask you, could any hair or any tissue that got stuck on the sticky side of that tape while Casey Anthony was alive, can that be determined forensically?

DR. JOSHUA PERPER, CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER, BROWARD COUNTY: If there is such evidence, it will be determined. However, there is no question in my mind, and I think that the reason why the medical examiner determined the case to be a homicide, that this tape was placed when the child was alive until the child died. Because there`s no reason in the world why this tape would have been wrapped around the head.

CASAREZ: Right. And legally speaking, homicide is death at the hands of another. Dr. Perper, when you look at duct tape, how good of a conductor is it of finger prints? Because if there was an accomplice, if there was someone else that was involved, would that be the area where forensically you could determine the acts of another?

PERPER: This would be a good conductor, if it`s dry. But remember that this tape was soaked in it water for a long period of time, that whatever finger prints were there disappeared.

CASAREZ: What about the humidity of Florida`s sun? Does that also dissipate the levels of DNA?

PERPER: The DNA level is a different story. But, yes, there can be defraction by heat. But in this particular case, they proved that the DNA of the child indeed identified her as Caylee. And there was no other DNA. The hair, which was found in the trunk of the car, could have equally been coming from the mother or from the -- this unfortunate child.

CASAREZ: You know, another thing that I wanted to ask you, because prosecutors need to link the crime scene where the skeletal remains were found with Casey. That is critical for the prosecution`s case. I was reading in the forensic report from the FBI that the air testing in the truck showed air samples of decomposition associated with anaerobic decomposition. Can you put that in plain English?

PERPER: Yes, well anaerobic decomposition means the decomposition in the absence of air, in the absence of oxygen. The explanation might be that inside the plastic bag there was not much air. Besides that, many of the decomposition processes themselves are anaerobic, and there is no use of oxygen. But because of this anaerobic lack of oxygen, this is consistent with the skeleton being in the bag, as it was found.

CASAREZ: So there is a link, potentially, between the car trunk and the air samples of decomposition, and the crime scene. Let`s go out to Mary in New York. Good evening, Mary.

CALLER: Good evening.

CASAREZ: Your question?

CALLER: When will we be hearing from her parents or anybody that will be backing her up, friends, these wonderful friends that she had parties with?

CASAREZ: Well, that`s a good question. You know, I think the next thing in line is obviously a funeral service for Caylee, for her to be remembered. That has not happened yet. Let`s go out to Drew Pethimoulx, reporter, WDBO radio. What is the status of a memorial service for Caylee Anthony?

DREW PETHIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: We understand a second autopsy has to be completed before they`ll have that memorial service. As far as what the caller was asking, when are we going to hear from people, you know, we don`t know who is going be at the private, who is going to be at the public. Jesse Grund, the ex-fiance, didn`t know whether he was going to be invited to the private service. So, we don`t know when we`re going to hear from these people.

What we do know is we`ll be hearing form them in court. They`re all on the prosecution`s witness list. So when the trial will start, we don`t know yet. But we know that they`ll be called to testify when that trial does start.

CASAREZ: Do we have any idea when that second autopsy is going to be performed?

PETHIMOULX: That hasn`t been announced. I haven`t heard an exact date on that. We know that the body is in the possession of funeral home that the family has chosen. So when they decide to hold this second autopsy, I have not heard yet.

CASAREZ: To Dr. Joshua Perper in regard to a second autopsy performed by defense, forensic investigators, is it normally done in the medical examiner`s office, or do you require it to be done somewhere else?

PERPER: No, it`s up to the wishes of the family. Once the body is released, it`s up to the family to decide where they want the examination to be done. By the way, that`s not an autopsy. It`s just an examination, unfortunately, of skeletal remains. And the first examination revealed no evidence of trauma. So the defense cannot do anything to improve, because it`s in the favor of the defense that there were no fractures or broken bones.

CASAREZ: Could that make a decision then to not do identification or looking at the body by the defense experts?

PERPER: They could do that, but they`re not going to do that because they have to show that they did every effort to try to uncover what they -- what they say that the actual suspect. But it`s not going to help them in any way.

CASAREZ: Very interesting. Regina in New York. Thanks for calling tonight. Hi, Regina.

CALLER: Hi, Jean. My question was for Dr. Perper, is that there was an e-mail that she had had, a friend talking about duct tape that she had took. Is it possible she put that duct tape on, because the poisoning didn`t work, and she suffocated her? And as far as the trunk goes, are you going to tell me now that he has got keys to her car and her home to be a suspect?

CASAREZ: You`re talking about the meter reader?

CALLER: Yes.

CASAREZ: That he has keys to the trunk?

CALLER: No, that they`re trying to make him look like he could be suspicious now. But he didn`t have keys to her car or to her home or anything else.

CASAREZ: Very good point. Dr. Perper, in your vast array of experience, with duct tape, what can it show? What -- how can it help in the investigation?

PERPER: Well, the tape which was placed on the mouth of the child, on the skull, was either a result of trying to prevent the child from crying, or a result of the fact that they tried to asphyxiate the child. But in either case, it`s homicide, murder by negligence or specifically.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was at my mom`s house within five minutes. When I arrived, go through the garage door like I typically do. There was -- the only vehicle in there was the vehicle driven by my sister, the white Pontiac. The trunk was open. The windows were rolled down to, I assume, ventilate the horrible smell that I had just smelled for the first time. And I went inside the house to see if anybody was there, nobody was.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The smell filled up the garage?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it was -- it hits you like a wave. Whatever it was, it was very potent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez of "IN SESSION," sitting in for Nancy Grace tonight. Out of the blue, the attorney advising Lee Anthony is saying that his client may be charged with some criminal counts here under the Florida statutes of obstruction of justice, tampering with evidence, possibly aiding abetting, accessory after the fact, according to my legal research. I want to go out to Jane Velez-Mitchell, who is the host of "ISSUES" with Jane Velez-Mitchell. Jane, we appreciate having you on so much.

We have so many people that day after day seem to be coming out of the woodwork, a private investigator that took video of the exact area, new attorneys. What do you make of it all?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Well, this case, every second it seems like it there is a dramatic twist and turn. And this is going to be really extraordinary, Jean, if it turns out that they can show this videotape of the very area where remains from found and say, hey, look, a month before the remains were found, we videotaped this area, and guess what, no bag. And that would certainly dove tail with the fact that this meter reader called three times in August, and said, check this out. And authorities did go down on at least one occasion, possibly more, and didn`t find anything.

Now, we have heard all sorts of things that, oh, they were scared away by a rattlesnake. But when you consider and you listen to the tapes of Roy Kronk (ph) saying, hey, go down and check out this area; he is very insistent. These are extensive conversations he has with 911. I think this is an opening for the defense. And they`re going to take the ball and run with it. But who knows when this videotape was actually taken.

CASAREZ: You`re exactly right. I think it is a mark for the defense. But also, when you think of a forested area, everything looks alike. And when you really look at that videotape, if we ever are see it, how do we know if it`s the exact area? There`s going to have to be some precise landmarks, or it`s a videotape that both sides during trial are going to be able to use.

MITCHELL: Absolutely. You could take a video of a bunch of leaves in Central Park and say, hey, this is the area. But I think there are trees there, and the trees have very distinctive roots. And if they can actually match that video up and somehow prove that it was taken in November, that`s going to be a huge blow, because the implication is the body was moved.

CASAREZ: True. But I remember what the head of Texas Equi-Search, Mr. Miller said, that he saw the area where the skeletal remains were found. Not only was there a hollow in the Earth, but all of the leaves were very, very dark and brown underneath the skeletal remains. So that confirmed in his mind it had been there for a long time. I guess we`ll just have to see.

Let`s go to Dr. Janet Taylor, M.D., a psychiatrist. You know, doctor, the holidays, we have just gone over the Christmas holidays. And I think a lot of us, myself included, were thinking about the Anthony family, because they so long had held on to the belief that Caylee was alive, but they had to accept the reality come December 11th and onward that those were her remains. How could someone, a family, cope during a holiday period with news like that?

DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHIATRIST: Jean, you`re right, the holidays are extremely tragic, and bring up so many memories of loss for everyone. But during the holidays, as in any time when you`re coping with a tragedy, the memorial service will be extremely important, and also try to gather memories and gather support wherever you can. I think, unfortunately, in this case, because the investigation and the trial is going to be ongoing, it`s going to be really difficult for closure. And the families, it`s just time and support that really can make a difference.

CASAREZ: I think you are right. Let`s go out to Mary in South Carolina. Mary, your question.

CALLER: Yes, I was wondering -- I wanted to ask the doctor about how long, approximately -- I know it`s hard to pinpoint it -- would the body have to have been in the trunk for the smell to be so overwhelming like it was? And also, I was curious why the brother is not cooperating as far as the finger prints and the DNA.

CASAREZ: OK. Dr. Joshua Perper, you have another question from one of our viewers. How long would the body have to be in the trunk to have the smell get to the point where it was at?

PERPER: Well, at least probably two or three days. In two or three days, it would be the smell. And my understanding is that the chemical analysis showed that the decomposition was about two to three days old.

CASAREZ: All right. To Doug Burns, defense attorney, Part B of Mary`s question in South Carolina: was Lee Anthony not voluntarily giving fingerprints, like George and Cindy Anthony did after the remains were found?

BURNS: Sure.

CASAREZ: Of course, that is his constitutional right. But why would someone at that point have his mother and father voluntarily give them, but he would ask for that subpoena or not give them until he received a subpoena.

BURNS: I think that`s an excellent point that the viewer raises. You do have the right against it, but by the same token, if you have nothing to hide, why in the world wouldn`t you? I mean, one of the other panelists made the point that, you know, you simply are making the authorities do it in the correct fashion, which is not uncommon, Jean, in terms of a lawyer advising somebody. But again, I think the caller makes a good point. But I think that`s a far cry, of course, from obstruction of justice.

CASAREZ: Right. You know, to Holly Hughes, prosecutor. When I look at this, and I think about the time that that body was spent in the trunk, that is something that I think could be very important to both sides. What do you say for the prosecution? How does that fare for the prosecution?

HUGHES: Well, I think it fares well for the prosecution, because it shows you, this wasn`t just a panicked moment where something accidentally happened and then she rushed out and dumped the body. This is someone who planned this. She kept that body in the trunk until she had time to get rid of it, dispose of it, without being seen. So she is methodical. She is not crazy. She is not legally insane. She is not out of her mind. She is planning every step of the way. And she waits until she can safely get rid of that body, when no one will see her, and she can get away with it, Jean.

So I think it goes directly to her state of mind before and after the crime, which will bode very, very well for the prosecution.

CASAREZ: And let me play devil`s advocate. George Prothrow, defense attorney, I think it could fare well for the defense. And let me tell you why. Do you remember the Robert Durst (ph) case in Houston? That`s where Robert Durst was accused, charged with first degree murder. He was acquitted of murder because the defense was able to separate the time of the killing, the murder, and separate it from the disposal of the body. I think there could be a mental defense in this case. What do you think?

PROTHROW: Well, absolutely, there could be a mental defense. But let`s remember one thing, an insanity defense is an affirmative defense. That will require Casey to actually admit that she engaged in this crime in this crime, that she committed it, but at the time that she did it, she wasn`t able to differentiate between right and wrong; she didn`t understand her actions.

At this point, there is no direct evidence linking her to any type of criminal behavior. She hasn`t admitted that she did it. There`s been no testimony. There`s been no confession. There`s also been no eye-witness testimony that has implicated her. All we have is circumstantial evidence. At this point, we have forensic evidence that, based on the FBI report that I`ve reviewed, is somewhat confusing at best. They haven`t come out to conclusively say that a decompositional event occurred, but that it may have occurred. They also found chemicals that would be present in an aerobic decompositional event, like you mentioned earlier.

They also noted in the FBI report that the levels of the chemicals that were found were somewhat lower than you would traditionally find in a decompositional event. So to ahead and look at the insanity defense I think is putting the cart a little before the horse. Right now the state still needs to prove that a murder occurred and that Casey actually participated in it.

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CASAREZ: Let`s go out to Susan Moss, child advocate, attorney. Susan, we`ve had breaking news tonight from the attorney that is advising Lee Anthony, telling the country and the jury pool that Lee Anthony may be charged with some very serious crimes. If you look at obstructing justice, tampering with evidence, I`m going to focus in on aiding and abetting, knowledge is a key element. Not knowledge a murder has occurred but knowledge that actual abuse and neglect of a child; that`s the knowledge that can come in regard to that count. Your thoughts?

SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE: Absolutely. That`s the only knowledge you need. This guy better hire Monty Hall, because it`s time for him to make a deal. If the attorney is going on national television and trying to make his case, they`ve got something against this client, because me thinks he doth protest too much.

CASAREZ: Could that be a strategy here, some type of a deal?

MOSS: Absolutely, that`s going to be his only option. If he`s going national -- lawyers just don`t go national and say, my client`s innocent, unless they have some problem, something to hide.

CASAREZ: To Mary Jean in Connecticut, good evening.

CALLER: Hello, how are you?

CASAREZ: Fine, thank you.

CALLER: I`m calling because I was wondering if she were to breathe -- if little Caylee were to breathe in the chloroform and the tape were to be placed over her mouth after, would there be any deposits from that chloroform on the tape? And if so, would that prove that this was an aggravating factor?

CASAREZ: Good point. Yes, it could be an aggravating factor. Dr. Joshua Perper, Very quickly, if Caylee was alive, she breathed that chloroform, could it be on the tape?

PERPER: Well, if it`s found, then it`s evidence. If it`s not found, it doesn`t mean anything, because the tape was in water so long. But it`s clear that this is something which was done during life, and that Caylee died with the tape on her mouth.

CASAREZ: All right. Tonight, let us stop to remember Army Sergeant First Class Anthony Woodham, 37 years old, from Rogers, Arkansas. On a second tour of duty, Woodham planned to retire once he reached 20 years of service, which would have been next month. Woodham was a huge NASCAR fan. He had a passion for restoring and fixing up Ford Mustangs. He leaves behind his mother, his mother Katherine, his wife Crystal, and three children: Patrick, Mitchell, and Courtney.

Sergeant First Class Anthony Woodham, American hero.

I want to thank you all, to our guests. Our biggest thank you though is for you, for being with us tonight. Thank you so much for inviting us into your homes. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Good night, everybody.

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