Hugo Chavez

[San]

Todays headline of the NY Post.

[mrs. red]

San....  

[Dihannah1]

I am an American through and through. I was an Army brat and prolly one of the first things I saw in my life was the American Flag. Prolly Taps is the first thing I heard. It always tugs at my heart when I hear The Star Spangled Banner. I support the United States. I loved my big tall father with the Army uniform and all his buttons and medals and I remember how he spit shined his shoes. I was born into the military of the United States of America. Always a patriot. I say this because I see something is wrong with the USA and I'm glad my father is long dead so he can't see what's going on.

I read all the posts written above. I'm gonna give you my impressions, although you will prolly kill me after you read them. I've snipped some phrases and put them in a logical (to me) order. However, anyway you look at it, these are the statements of Hugo Chavez and the implications.

I heard part of Hugo's speech on TV and read it on the Drudge website. The first thing I didn't like was the female translator. Hugo must have brought her with him from VN and she translated with the same sarcastic voice inflections as his. This is the first time I've heard any UN translator who is not neutral.

The applause was stunning, absolutely mind blowing. Let me say that again. The applause was stunning. Chavez has a world audience. They like him, they really like him. Who were all the countries who were applauding? (I'm serious, if anyone has a link, let me know.)

It was shocking that he chose to say what he did in the UN in NY in the US. He has a huge amount of chutzpah (extreme nerve) and no fear. I think we need to shove the UN the hell out of the US as soon as possible. (Monkeys have said that too.)

Hugo Chavez may be the biggest jerk of all time, but he is highly educated, speaks excellent English, is extremely well read and brilliant. Isn't there a fine line between sanity and insanity? Ahmadinejad cannot compare intellectually. I found the words about GW being the devil and the smell of sulfur being present just ridiculous.

All my adult life I wondered why the US is the world's policeman. I suppose it was because we dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. So, if we are the policemen, we are on our own side and only invade/threaten countries who try to override us or have the potential to do so. Re Chavez quoting Noam Chomsky and holding up his book "The Imperialist Strategy of the United States" (I haven't read it), in all my years, I never saw a politician hold up a book, refer to it, and recommend that Americans read it. Innovative. That made me think. "Imperialist" broadly means: gaining indirect control over the political or economic life of other areas; the extension or imposition of power, authority, or influence. Being ONLY objective, what drew us into WWI? Was it our NATO treaty that drew us into WWII? What happened in Korea? We got into Viet Nam years ago by JFK. Lyndon Johnson was stuck with the mess and Nixon got us out of it. The CIA installed the Shah of Iran, and then took him out of power. In the long run, that's why now we have Ahmadinejad. How many other coups has the USA backed? Yeah, we all know the reason for Kuwait and thus Iraq, in retaliation for the botched assination of GHWB (41). Iraq and the WMD debacle was the straw that broke the Nonaligned Countries' back. The Even though we are "right," are we going about it in an Imperialistic manner?

Two strong points Chavez made.

1) "The UN SYSTEM, born after the Second World War, COLLAPSED. It's worthless. We, the assembly, have been turned into a merely deliberative organ. We have no power, no power to make any impact on the terrible situation in the world. Yesterday, the secretary general practically gave us his speech of farewell. And he recognized that over the last 10 years, things have just gotten more complicated; hunger, poverty, violence, human rights violations have just worsened. That is the tremendous consequence of the collapse of the United Nations system and American hegemonistic (domination, preponderant influence or authority over others) pretensions."

(Louise speaking) Anyone agree? I do. We Monkeys have stated the UN is "United Nothing" and should be relocated outside of the US.

2) Chavez speaks for the NONALIGNED COUNTRIES, which he also refers to as the Nonaligned Movement. This is extremely important. "And there you see another era born. The era is giving birth to a heart. The Summit of the 15, the Summit of the Nonaligned, adopted a historic resolution. What we now have to do is define the future of the world. Dawn is breaking out all over. More than 50 heads of state have now launched, once again, the group of the nonaligned with new momentum. We have to strengthen ourselves, our will to do battle, our awareness. We have to build a new and better world. There are alternative ways of thinking. There are young people who think differently. And this has already been seen within the space of a mere decade."  

(Louise speaking) Bush called out three countries in his Axis of Evil - Iran, Iraq and North Korea. When he said it, I think the world was shocked at his boldness. Now, I think it was a big mistake to mention any countries. Since he did, North Korea said "f--k" you, we are embroiled in a mess in Iraq and now Ahmadinejad is making bombs.

Now we can add more nonaligned countries to Hugo Chavez's list: Venezuela, Columbia, Bolivia, Cuba, Russia, China, Syria, the Arab world (not Lebanon), the Caribbean countries and the African Union. (If you can think of any more, please post them.)

What I see is the United States aligned with Great Britain, as well as old Europe, eastern Europe and outlying countries who have no military power, such as Australia (if you can think of any more, please post them) VS the nonaligned countries, who have oil and build bombs.  

THE NONALIGNED COUNTRIES ARE OUR BIGGEST THREAT.

We all know the world has gone wrong and we are in the most dangerous times the world has ever seen. Some have said Armageddon has arrived. The End Times are here. I believe that.

PS: Is Chavez indicating that Bush is the only devil and the next President won't be, or does he mean the devil is the USA no matter who is president?

Louise, I truly believe we are related some how!  I came here to post, pretty much what you said, but of course, as usual, you said it more eloquontly than I ever could have.  What's funny, is I thought I was the only one who heard Chavez translator and thought the exact same thing.  It was so strange to listen to her inflections, non-monotone like usual.
But you pretty much spoke ALL of my thoughts, feelings and fears of the non-aligned countries, as they just keep growing.   We have our hands in far to many others affairs, I fear, we are going to lose control, spiral out of control....
I too am glad my father, a Master Sgt. in the Marines is not here to see what is happening, though I would love to hear his thoughts...

[mrs. red]

Maybe the common thread of having military fathers is what has drawn us to this discussion... my father was a Marine.  He wasn't in for as long as y'all's fathers, but he told me before that he wishes he had made a career of it... anyway, I hope my long winded post made sense to y'all. I was trying to get my thoughts together and formulated as I wrote them...

[Dihannah1]

Mrs. Red you did and I completely agree.   You may be right about our military fathers and backgrouds is what brings us together.  

As I read here, we all seem to feel the same way, but present it differently.  That why I love SM so much!

[Carnut]

Heh, heh, my father was a 'lifer' in the Air Force.

I was dragged kicking and screaming into the Army by the draft.

[LouiseVargas]

I am amazed that all three of us (Dihannah1, Mrs. Red and I) had military fathers. It has influenced how we think.
*****************

Mrs. Red and Carnut,

I'm always open to changing my viewpoint when I get new information.

Maybe it's not about oil. Carnut said "There was no oil in Bosnia, Somalia, Lebanon, Haiti and Serbia when we sent troops to those places for stabilization. I think the US has seen itself as the 'protector of last resort' since the Spanish American war and because of that those of lessor power in the world are jealous and those with an alternative viewpoint would hate us no matter what we do."

Mrs. Red, I forgot that France was trying to colonize Viet Nam. How did we get into that war? JFK was the first to try to deal with that and Nixon got us out. And I did hear many times it was over oil. When people say we are getting into another Viet Nam, they mean we are getting bogged down into a situation that is very difficult to get out of. We exited Viet Nam without accomplishing anything. In Iraq, we don't want to do the same thing, but it seems there is no way out. The Generals say we need more troops but the US is not sending them. I don't think we are glorifying Viet Nam at all. It was nothing to be glorified about.

One major difference between Viet Nam and Iraq, is that Viet Nam was considered an illegal war. No one asked congress to validate it. We just sent troops there. Iraq, on the other hand, was voted upon in congress and the majority gave its approval. Yes, many American's were tortured in Viet Nam in the worst way. John McCain was in a torture cage / chamber for at least 4-5 years. Amazing he was able to get past that and go into politics. And the other American soldier (I can't remember his name but he lost both legs and one arm and is also political) disappeared from the political front because he is now in Post Traumatic Stress therapy because the Iraq war and Abu Gahrab (sp?) prison brought it all back.

The protesters protested because it was an illegal war. It was also the 60s hippie movement - Make love, not war - War is not healthy for children and other living things - Hey, hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today? Singers like Bob Dylan, Joan Baez, Neil Young all sang about the war.  Nixon was fit to be tied over the protests and sent in troops to fight the protesters. Remember Kent State University. "Ohio" - Tin soldiers and Nixon coming, We're finally on our own. This summer I hear the drumming, Four dead in Ohio. Mrs. Red, it was a different time and an age of more innocence.

Of course, GW is not causing Islamists to hate us infidels. As you said, the 13th century scholar said that Islam is spread by the sword. However, GHWB went into Iraq because Iraq invaded Kuwait and was poised to attack Saudi Arabia and other countries. According to GW, he did not go into Iraq to clean up GHWB's mess. He said it was because of weapons of mass destruction.

Regarding our interfering, as Carnut said "I think the US has seen itself as the protector of last resort ...."  We were not interfering in Tehran when it was hit with the earthquake, when the tsunami hit, etc., - we offered aid and supplies. It had nothing to do with war or politics.  And for sure, no one interfered with Katrina - the United States was very late in responding.

Yes, we are in a whole NEW war. The US stands alone with Britain barely hanging on to us. That's what I meant by saying that the nonaligned countries are what we should fear. At the very least, Chavez and Ahmadinejad and Castro all will join together and there is strength in numbers. Also North Korea and Russia.  They will all line up against us. That's what the new war is about.

My hope is that the nonaligned will realize if they drop the bomb on the US or Israel, that they will be retaliated upon and the whole world will eventually end with radioactive dust all over the place. Only the strongest of us will survive and it will be a miserable existence and we may die anyway. Just like Blade Runner and Stephen King's "The Stand."

I often ponder the one fatal mistake that changes our lives - the last straw that falls upon the camel's back.

[LouiseVargas]

OMG, Carnut! You're one of us! My father was a lifer too.

Ok, I have to ask. Was it in the 60s that you were drafted? My husband escaped because he had a pregnant wife.

Were you in Viet Nam or were you stationed stateside or in Europe?

Please tell.

[Carnut]

Louise I went in on Jan 13, 1968 and got an early out on Feb 17, 1969.

That's all I have to say.

[LouiseVargas]

PS:
The name of the other soldier I was referring to in my above post is Max Cleland. Joseph Maxwell Cleland (born August 24, 1942) is an American politician from Georgia. He was elected to the United States Senate from 1996 to 2002.

He is a disabled US Army veteran of the Vietnam War and attained the rank of Captain. He was awarded the Silver Star and the Bronze Star for valorous action in combat, including the Battle of Khe Sanh on April 4th, 1968. On April 8, 1968. Captain Cleland was the Battalion Signal Officer for the 2nd Battalion, 12th Cavalry Regiment, 1st Cavalry Division during the Battle of Khe Sanh. During the battle, in which the Battalion was attempting to relieve besieged Marines defending the Khe Sanh Firebase, Cleland was ordered to erect a communications antenna on a nearby mountain top. Cleland's group was dropped off by helicopter and Cleland was severely wounded when he attempted to pick up a grenade he thought he had dropped upon disembarking. He lost both legs and part of one arm due to injuries when the grenade exploded.

****************
And the other American soldier (I can't remember his name but he lost both legs and one arm and is also political) disappeared from the political front because he is now in Post Traumatic Stress therapy because the Iraq war and Abu Gahrab (sp?) prison brought it all back.

[Dihannah1]

Isn't Cleland portrayed by Tom Cruise in the movie "Born on the 4th of July", may be wrong title...?  Big anit-war activist when he returned from Viet Nam..  I was very young, in kindergarten during the VN war, I remember our principal losing his son and the lowering of the school flag, but I was too young to understand until I got older.  As much as I've read and seen on t.v., I have never understood that war and still do not know why we went or why we were there.  Why did we go?  I know the rest of the story.....

I also fear the non-aligned countries.   I am beginning to believe they are a larger threat than the war on terrorism.  They have recently reared their ugly heads and growing support and have money to back their threats.  They know we have our hands full right now and are taking advantage.  Including gaining support from some  Americans by providing cheap gas to the poor. They could truly be the cause of the "real" WWIII sneaking up when our hands are held behind our backs.  Could one of them be the Anti-christ????  

Mrs. Red,  I wanted you to know, I loved your Marine story,  a positive, heartwarming and optomistic story at that.  May God bless that Marine!

[mrs. red]

Ok... I am really expecting flames here...

It has also been suggested that the Born on the 4th of July protrayal of Max Cleland was flattering... that he was actually "playing around" and blew himself up in Vietnam.  I do not know Max Cleland personally, those people I know that do actually know him  - well they say it would not surprise them... he is noted for having been quite the partier...

I am not saying that the information I have is fact... just saying that I have heard this about him....

However after thinking about it a few days I finally put my finger on what it is that annoys me to no end when I hear that "this is the younger generation's Vietnam" ...


NO IT ISN'T.... us pulling out of Vietnam, which btw, had a lot more casualities.... is NOTHING like us pulling out of Afghanistan or Iraq right now....

the "enemy" is a completely different kind of enemy...if we get spooked, give up and go home it will be just like the speech that the Afghanistan president made today...

do we not remember innocent victims jumping to their death from the 80th floor on 9-11?  If we leave, it's like telling this enemy we want more... they will strike again, only this time even harder...

I hope that what I am trying to express is coming through... that it's a different and worse enemy this time and the stakes are higher...

[Sam]

[quote="mrs. red

However after thinking about it a few days I finally put my finger on what it is that annoys me to no end when I hear that "this is the younger generation's Vietnam" ...


NO IT ISN'T.... us pulling out of Vietnam, which btw, had a lot more casualities.... is NOTHING like us pulling out of Afghanistan or Iraq right now....

the "enemy" is a completely different kind of enemy...if we get spooked, give up and go home it will be just like the speech that the Afghanistan president made today...

do we not remember innocent victims jumping to their death from the 80th floor on 9-11?  If we leave, it's like telling this enemy we want more... they will strike again, only this time even harder...

I hope that what I am trying to express is coming through... that it's a different and worse enemy this time and the stakes are higher...[/quote]

I hope I did not mess that up. My Father was Army WW2. My Husbands father was career Air Force also WW2 as well as other conflicts. My husband was career Navy. In a couple of conflicts but lucked out and no Vietnam. Both of my brothers were career Army. Both were in Vietnam. One of my brothers was there twice. Our son was in Army in Somalia. He was going to make a career out of the Army. So glad he changed his mind.

From what I remember Dihannah1 we were trying to keep North Vietnam from turning the whole country Communist. That was our main enemy at the time. Communism. Although our country has always been known for helping the underdogs. JMHO

Since I was a wife and sister of servicemen I came to hate people like John Kerry as well as Jane Fonda. Does that mean I think the war was right? No, I do not think we did any of those citizens any favors. Especially since we pulled out. Yet I could never support people who thought our servicemen were killers to be spit upon.

Now with all that said. Mrs Red is so right. This is a war we can't afford to lose.Quote from Mrs Red I hope that what I am trying to express is coming through... that it's a different and worse enemy this time and the stakes are higher...[/quote]

[Dihannah1]

There is NO comparison.  We had a reason to go to Iraq and Afghanistan, I'm 42 yrs. old and still have no idea why we were in Veit Nam.
No flaming her Mrs. Red,  even when I watched that movie, I had no idea at the time who Cleland was and felt he was way far left.  

It's very obvious why we went to Afghanastan and maybe it is questionable why we went to Iraq in hindsight.  But there is NO way we can leave, it would be 10 times worse, which would be unimaginable.  The terrorists would gloat in glee of victory and come even harder at us.  Somehow, no matter how long it takes, we can not leave until it's under control.   Too late to turn back now...

[LouiseVargas]

Mrs. Red and Sam and Dihannah,

No flames from me regarding either subject.

I kinda remember from my research that Max Cleland was a "loose cannon" type of guy. Imagine the horror he has to live with now with knowing his foolishness cost him two legs and an arm. I remember a lot of very young and inexperienced guys were sent to Viet Nam. Teenagers.

The one thing to remember about Jane Fonda and John Kerry is that the times were different and it was a totally unique era than we had never seen. And it was acceptable by the young generation for Jane and John spoke out. They felt obligated but didn't know at the time that they would never live down what they did, even though they thought they were doing good at the time. And if you look back on history, you will see that eventually they came around to know that in the long run, protests against the government did not work. Example: Jane Fonda's husband, Tom Hayden - one of the Chicago Seven who disrupted the Democratic National Convention - eventually realized he could not change the system from the outside. In California, he became a politician and was able to do more from the inside.

The hippies were for peace. Men were drafted and they had to either go into the Army or flee to Canada, and if they did that, they were considered traitors. They protested like crazy. The soldiers who came home were spat upon. It was a horrible reaction. I remember a woman I worked with - her husband was drafted, he made it though his two year tour of duty, and then when he came home, he got on his prized motorcycle and was killed in an accident. Fate.

That generation was much smarter and aware than the current young generation. What do we have now? Students who bring guns to school and shoot em up like Columbine. No sense of right and wrong, no ethics. Unruly students who have no respect for teachers. Gang bangers who kill people in drive by shootings to make their bones. Mindless self gratification. Cell phones, the iPod generation. Cars.

The American family broke down years ago. Single mothers who have to work to keep a roof over their heads and the heads of their children. The mothers have forgotten that the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world. No time for supervision and guidance. Clueless.

It is impossible to compare Viet Nam to Iraq and Afghanistan. Communism was nothing compared to terrorism. We were fighting an ideology then and while we have a much bigger enemy now, it is also somehow related to another much greater and far more evil ideology. I read novels by Leon Uris about the middle east (he wrote Exodus from the Jewish point of view and he wrote The Haj from the Arab point of view) and from what I read, I learned the Koran said to wipe out the Jews AND ALL OTHER infidels. Over the years, people said "no, the Koran does not say that" but it does say it. And we see the proof of that ideology right now.

I agree we cannot afford to lose this war. We cannot have helicopters evacuating people from the American Embassy. In this case, we cannot leave. And even if we stay, we cannot win. No one knows how to get out of this. This is the battle of our lifetimes. This is the biggest war of all time. We have to fight back but we are up against fanaticism from hell - people who are alien to us - people with a barbarian and simplistic ideology. Convert to Islam or die. There are not enough troops. Former military officers are calling for the resignation of Rumsfeld. We cannot do anything with the amount of troops we have now. I'm sick to death of the whole thing and I'm glad I'm 62 and will not live to see our country overtaken by radical Islam.

Please don't flame me either. If anyone has a clue as to how we can subdue the barbarians, please post.

[Carnut]

Ah, like Goldwater said 'Nukem'.

[Sam]

No flames here Monkeys. This is a really good discussion.

Maybe I did not do a good job Dihannah of trying to explain the reason for us being in Vietnam in the first place. The big fear was Communism. Russia was a powerful Communist nation. They also had nuclear power. We were so afraid that as more Nations became communist it would give Russia and other Communist Nations more power and then they would come for us and take away our power. So I guess in the long run all wars become about power.

I can remember reading that Saddan Hussein also wanted more power. He wanted to gradually take over all the Arab nations.

Carnut, I do not think we can Nuke em. We would have to nuke us all because the Muslims are now everywhere.

Maybe this is a simpified version . I am giving a link to an article on Vietnam. I am copying and pasting a couple of paragraphs. There is more in the article.
http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/vietnam/causes.htm

The multiple starting dates for the war complicate efforts to describe the causes of U.S. entry. The United States became involved in the war for a number of reasons, and these evolved and shifted over time. Primarily, every American president regarded the enemy in Vietnam--the Vietminh; its 1960s successor, the National Liberation Front (NLF); and the government of North Vietnam, led by *Ho Chi Minh--as agents of global communism. U.S. policymakers, and most Americans, regarded communism as the antithesis of all they held dear. Communists scorned democracy, violated human rights, pursued military aggression, and created closed state economies that barely traded with capitalist countries. Americans compared communism to a contagious disease. If it took hold in one nation, U.S. policymakers expected contiguous nations to fall to communism, too, as if nations were dominoes lined up on end. In 1949, when the Communist Party came to power in China, Washington feared that Vietnam would become the next Asian domino. That was one reason for Truman's 1950 decision to give aid to the French who were fighting the Vietminh,


As presidents committed the United States to conflict bit by bit, many of these ambitions were forgotten. Instead, inertia developed against withdrawing from Vietnam. Washington believed that U.S. withdrawal would result in a Communist victory--Eisenhower acknowledged that, had elections been held as scheduled in Vietnam in 1956, "Ho Chi Minh would have won 80% of the vote"--and no U.S. president wanted to lose a country to communism. Democrats in particular, like Kennedy and Johnson, feared a right-wing backlash should they give up the fight; they remembered vividly the accusatory tone of the Republicans' 1950 question, "Who lost China?" The commitment to Vietnam itself, passed from administration to administration, took on validity aside from any rational basis it might once have had. Truman, Eisenhower, and Kennedy all gave their word that the United States would stand by its South Vietnamese allies. If the United States abandoned the South Vietnamese, its word would be regarded as unreliable by other governments, friendly or not. So U.S. credibility seemed at stake.

We are saying the same today about Iraq. I do agree the stakes are higher now.

[Chicago_510]

7 11 drops Citgo as its gas supplier.


http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=7%2011%20citgo&sa=N&tab=wn

[mrs. red]

Chicago... thanks!  I am glad to see that we are actually telling this whacko in essence, get over yourself!

[Carnut]

Carnut, I do not think we can Nuke em. We would have to nuke us all because the Muslims are now everywhere.

Hey, we can handle the ones here.

Do unto others before others do unto you.

So there's a few collateral fatalities, what the hey.