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Author Topic: ACORN/VOTER FRAUD  (Read 4779 times)
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crazybabyborg
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« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2008, 11:51:28 AM »

caesu,

It's impossible to "know" folks we chat with on a forum so it's hard to ask you to trust me, but honestly, I can truthfully say that any organization that is committing voter fraud, regardless of whose party it helped, would be an object of my wrath. I want assurance that every legal vote counts, and that not one legal vote is diluted by another that is not legal. There is overwhelming, clear, and concise evidence that Acorn has brought in a lot of registrations that are fraudulent. The fact that Acorn receives public funds further angers me. Again, the dollars I earn, along with every other American worker, is being appropriated to causes that attack the very cornerstones of what this country is.

America isn't bound by common blood, faith, or ancestry. We are bound only by a common ideal, and freedom and liberty is at the core. The process of free and fair elections is the catalyst for all application of that freedom. When I say that Acorn's operations are dangerous, I'm not referring exclusively to this election, but I don't diminish the impact on this election either.

I have to believe that if there were solid evidence in your own country of voter fraud, you would be as concerned. If a mirror organization on the Republican side had the same allegations against them, with the evidence behind it that exists for Acorn, I would be calling for revocation of any public funds, and I would be calling for whatever it takes to clean it up before the election.

There are states, whose registration process do not afford much opportunity to intercept flawed registrations. Florida is one of them, and that state is critically important in making the determination of who will be our next President. The mere fact that a publically funded organization whose objective is to register voters has endorsed either candidate, or been involved in an exchange of money between that candidate, flies in the face of all that is right and fair.

This, IMO, is an outrage. This, IMO, is very, very dangerous.
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caesu
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« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2008, 12:43:19 PM »

Quote
Fact: No criminal charges related to voter registration have ever been brought against ACORN or partner organizations. Convictions against individual former ACORN workers have been accomplished with our full cooperation, using the evidence obtained through our quality control and verification processes — evidence which in most cases WE called to the attention of authorities

this what Acorn says. some maybe don't believe that.

but when i read that there is a attempt to connect Obama to Acorn.
then i see another 'guilt by association' trick being played. like there have been so many already.
it seems it is not about Acorn, but about discrediting Obama.

i read often right-wing blogs. and everything is tried to discredit Obama. the most ridiculous things.
every day i wonder what they come up it. it think it is a perverse side to the election campaign.
blame goes here for both sides by the way. but i have to say the most vile attacks come from one side.
i am glad the blog frontpage here on SM doesn't do this as much anymore.
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WhiskeyGirl
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« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2008, 01:24:38 PM »

Obama is a lawyer.  I have to wonder if he advised ACORN in a legal capacity when he WAS associated with them.  Did he help them set up their organizing program?  Did he help them determine criteria used to hire these people?

What responsibility does ACORN have for the people they hire?

Same questions for the Wall Street Gangs.  Will any of those top people ever be held accountable for the actions of those under them?  Any return their bonuses?

Where does the buck stop at ACORN?
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WhiskeyGirl
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« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2008, 02:03:49 PM »

I also wonder about the number of overseas "Americans" casting ballots.

What criteria is used to ensure that they are legitimate?  Not fraud voters? 

Who determines country of residence for a passport holder?  Is it possible for passport number to be used to cast fraud votes?  Could the numbers have been stolen or obtained and used without the REAL owner being aware?

Same with overseas donations.  Maybe the passport holder doesn't know their passport number is being used for fraud.

Could the IRS start to wonder where the REAL holder (and filer of taxes) is storing all this off-shore money?  Wonder why they haven't reported income?

Could a real person be legally registered to vote at their place of residence?  And, by fraud be registered to vote elsewhere?  Using fraud drivers license numbers, addresses, passport numbers?

Maybe the next president will determine that the investigation process is one of those things that isn't working and get rid of it?

When, greater resources should be devoted to ensuring the integrity of US elections?

How many absentee ballots will be used as part of a fraud scheme?
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All my posts are just my humble opinions.  Please take with a grain of salt.  Smile

It doesn't do any good to hate anyone,
they'll end up in your family anyway...
WhiskeyGirl
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« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2008, 02:21:46 PM »

Off-Shore Voters

Another thing I've wondered about...

IIRC, several years ago, reading stories about Polish elections.  News stories reported that there were more Polish citizens living and voting in Chicago for the Polish elections, than there were voters living in Poland.  Should Polish politics be decided by people that don't live in Poland anymore?

What about all the legal children of illegal immigrants?  How many years before this happens in the US?

How long before US elections are decided by 'citizens' that have never been to the US, or do not live here?

Is this the future of global politics?  Politics decided for countries by people that don't live there?  Have no interest in the locals?

Citizenship is a blessing and a curse.
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All my posts are just my humble opinions.  Please take with a grain of salt.  Smile

It doesn't do any good to hate anyone,
they'll end up in your family anyway...
crazybabyborg
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« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2008, 09:30:27 PM »

Quote
Fact: No criminal charges related to voter registration have ever been brought against ACORN or partner organizations. Convictions against individual former ACORN workers have been accomplished with our full cooperation, using the evidence obtained through our quality control and verification processes — evidence which in most cases WE called to the attention of authorities

this what Acorn says. some maybe don't believe that.

but when i read that there is a attempt to connect Obama to Acorn.
then i see another 'guilt by association' trick being played. like there have been so many already.
it seems it is not about Acorn, but about discrediting Obama.

i read often right-wing blogs. and everything is tried to discredit Obama. the most ridiculous things.
every day i wonder what they come up it. it think it is a perverse side to the election campaign.
blame goes here for both sides by the way. but i have to say the most vile attacks come from one side.
i am glad the blog frontpage here on SM doesn't do this as much anymore.

I don't follow this logic. By that same thought process, a person charged with murder, who was under suspicion of a previous murder, should be seen as most likely innocent because they weren't previously charged?? 

Legally, if there wasn't enough provable evidence in the first case to move beyond suspicion, it shouldn't add prejudice but it sure doesn't add weight to the innocence of the current charge!

caesu, the vast majority of these fraudulent registrations were not turned in by Acorn. Have you not seen the interviews of people who actually were pressured by Acorn to register multiple times, or the registrations of store names, or the multitude of signatures that were perfect matches to each other?

There is so much wrong with the whole Acorn thing.
1. Acorn should not have endorsed any candidate: Obama or McCain
2. Acorn should not have paid field workers based on commission.
3. Acorn should not receive public funding. ( You do recall that the first bailout that was voted down included big bonuses for Acorn, don't you? Pelosi and Company wrote it in, and Acorn was involved in those sub-prime mortgages the American people just got stuck with.)
4. Obama should never have given Acorn funds, and sure as heck shouldn't have lied about it.
    During primary campaigning in February through May, Barack Obama's campaign paid Citizens Services Inc. $832,598.29, for services including:

• $310,441.20 -- Feb. 25, staging, sound, lighting

• $160,689.40 -- Feb. 27, staging, sound, lighting

• $98,451.20 -- Feb. 29, travel/lodging

• $74,578.01-- March 13, staging, sound, lighting

• $18,417.00 -- March 28, polling

• $18,633.60 -- April 29, staging, sound, lighting

• $63,000.00 -- April 8, advance work

• $105.84 -- May 2, license fees

• $105.84 -- May 2, license fees

• $75,000.00 -- May 17, advance work

• $13,176.20 -- May 17, per diem

Obama spokesman Ben LaBolt indicated all work by CSI would be amended to the category of field work.

SOURCE: Federal Election Commission

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/election/s_584284.html
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caesu
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« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2008, 12:32:25 AM »

in the coming days the McCain/Palin campaign will go at this in full force.
realizing that they can't win the election, they are now accusing Obama that he is stealing the election.

and if Obama doesn't win by a landslide, they are going to whine for 4 years about it.
Quote
GOP senator: Democrats want to steal Indiana

By Sylvia A. Smith
Washington editor

WASHINGTON - The only way Barack Obama can win in Indiana is to cheat, one of John McCain's stand-ins said Thursday.

He said votes have already been cast by "people who don't exist" and that a national voter-registration effort is "trying to steal the election in Indiana."

In an interview before headlining the Indiana Republican Party's fund-raising dinner in Indianapolis Thursday night, Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., said Hoosiers are too smart to vote for Obama.

Democrats, he said, "can't win fairly out here."

Asked if Democrats could win without cheating, Graham said, "No. They can't win fairly out here 'cause their agenda is so far removed from the average Hoosier.


"We could lose, I suppose, if they cheat us out of it," Graham said of Indiana's 11 electoral votes. "I think the only way we lose a state like North Carolina or Indiana is to get cheated out of it."

Kip Tew, a senior adviser to Obama's campaign in Indiana, said Graham's accusations are "highly irresponsible." He said the Obama campaign deplores voter fraud.

http://www.journalgazette.net/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081009/NEWS03/810090281/1002/LOCAL
Quote
Two kinds of fraud

"Acorn" may not exactly be a household word, but it was on the cover of one of the newspapers I read in hard copy today, so it seemed worth getting into a marginal story that the GOP is trying to make central.

The key distinction here is between voter fraud and voter registration fraud, one of which is truly dangerous, the other a petty crime.

The former would be, say, voting the cemeteries or stuffing the ballot boxes. This has happened occasionally in American history, though I can think of recent instances only in rare local races. Practically speaking, this can most easily be done by whoever is actually administering the election, which is why partisan observers carefully oversee the vote-counting process.

The latter is putting the names of fake voters on the rolls, something that happens primarily when organizations, like Acorn, pay contractors for new voter registrations. That can be a crime, and it messes up the voter files, but there's virtually no evidence these imaginary people then vote in November. The current stories about Acorn don't even allege a plan to affect the November vote.


So the New York Post's story leads:

    Two Ohio voters, including Domino's pizza worker Christopher Barkley, claimed yesterday that they were hounded by the community-activist group ACORN to register to vote several times, even though they made it clear they'd already signed up.

There's not even an allegation that the guy was being pressed to vote twice.

Acorn, meanwhile, is denouncing the raid on its Nevada office as a political stunt and says it had tried to alert authorities to its own bad registrations.

And Acorn is taking credit for registering 1.3 million new voters, which is a lot, though the fake ones, of course, along with being against the law, are worthless.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/Two_kinds_of_fraud.html
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crazybabyborg
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« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2008, 12:57:57 AM »

We had a scandal once in America called Watergate. A Republican President was a shoe-in to win the upcoming election, but that wasn't good enough for him, apparently. Every poll said he would win, and he did. Later, he resigned against sure impeachment for his role in the Watergate break-in of the Democratic national headquarters. He should have resigned, IMO, and had he chosen not to do so, he should have been impeached.

My point is this: A sure victory does not preclude shady, unethical, or even illegal activity by the frontrunner.

I hope it is far more than a whine from all Americans if this election is tampered with. I hope it is loud enough to stop Acorn in it's tracks, and any other organization, regardless of party affiliation, that would seek to commit voter fraud at any juncture in the process; registration, or on election day. I hope it's heard throughout this country loudly enough to jerk Acorn's funding and make a clear example to any entity that would endeavor to falsify any election related document.

I hope it's loud enough to require some common sense guidelines, like proof of citizenship, and proof of residence within the state someone's vote is cast.

I hope that "whine" is a clear ringing cry and demand for a non-corrupted election process.
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caesu
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« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2008, 01:25:45 AM »

that's right - a non-corrupted election process.

but the voters registration fraud, how does lead to fraudulent votes cast?
if fake names end up on the voting roll. still you have to show ID. so that's not going to work.

it is impossible to have many people show up with fake ID's, matching the fake registrations.

voters purges however do work. and republicans seem to be busy with.
targeting groups more likely to vote democrat.

that's why a landslide win would be ideal.
you can't fraud your way in a landslide win.
i mean maybe Zimbabwe that can work, but not in America.

Quote
Republicans crossed line with voter purge attempt

By John Bohlinger - 10/05/2008

Frank St. Pierre, of Anaconda, fought in World War II. He is one of the most decorated living veterans in America. And yet, on Wednesday, my party — the Montana Republican Party — tried to invalidate his voter registration because he lives in a county with a lot of Democrats. Incredible as this may sound to you, it is the truth.

When people ask why, as a Republican, I agreed to become part of a Democratic administration, I tell them that I believe in putting my state before my party. This has created tension at times. On occasion the folks who run the Republican Party have tried to lock me out of their convention, and this year they even tried to prevent me from speaking at the Presidential Primary Caucus in support of John McCain.

I have always taken this treatment in stride. As the saying goes, "All's fair in love, war and politics." But the executive director of the Republican Party crossed the line when he attempted to remove 6,000 voters from the rolls in Montana. These voters are law-abiding citizens and are legally registered. Some are veterans. Others are active servicemen, serving in Iraq and Afghanistan or about to be deployed there.

As a Republican, I was ashamed to hear of this. But as a Marine, I was outraged. Why would the Republican Party, which always claims to care greatly about our troops, do this?


It appears that Republican operatives looked to gain an advantage by purging as many voters as possible from counties that lean Democrat. The director of the Republican Party issued a blanket challenge to validly registered voters based on false criteria, trying to persuade election clerks that a mere change of mailing address is grounds for automatic cancellation of voter registration.


Not only was the effort blatantly deceptive, but the Republicans based their challenge on a national change-of-address database from an out-of-state vendor who sells personal information. Among other problems, this database lists servicemen and women who have been deployed overseas as having moved out of Montana. In other words, if you go to Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Fort Sill, Okla., to report for active duty, you have "moved out of the state" according to this list.

http://www.mtstandard.com/articles/2008/10/05/opinion/hjjbijjejjigfj.txt

due to the electoral votes.
one state can make the difference. it can be a very small margin.
so these voter purges can be very effective.
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crazybabyborg
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« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2008, 03:48:18 AM »

caesu, the post you quoted is an op/ed piece, so I went to the same paper for the news story. It follows:

Democrats file suit over GOP voter challenges
By JENNIFER McKEE
Gazette State Bureau

HELENA - Two registered Montana voters and the Montana Democratic Party filed a federal lawsuit this morning seeking to stop state Republicans from challenging registered voters who have recently changed their addresses.

Joseph Breitenbach and Cynthia Anne Greene, both of Missoula, along with the state Democratic Party contend that the Montana Republican Party's voter challenge is an effort to suppress voter turnout immediately before a close election, said Caleb Weaver, a Montana spokesman for the Barack Obama presidential campaign, which is helping with the challenge.

"These challenges are a transparent and very likely unsuccessful attempt" to discourage properly registered voters from turning up on Election Day, Weaver told a group of Montana reporters in a conference call this morning.

Specifically, the Montana Republican Party is challenging some 6,000 registered Montana voters who have moved since they last registered to vote. The challenges were in six, heavily-Democratic counties: Missoula, Lewis and Clark, Silver Bow, Deer Lodge, Glacier and Hill.

Republicans have asserted the challenges are about preventing voter fraud.

Voters who are challenged will receive a letter from the county asking them to verify their current address with a notarized statement.

The suit names Jacob Eaton, executive director of the Montana Republican Party, Matt Hunsacker, another Montana GOP employee, the state GOP and Secretary of State Brad Johnson as defendants.

The suit specifically asks a federal judge to stop counties from sending out any more letters requesting a notarized proof of address. Weaver said he believed the letters had not gone out in Missoula or Lewis and Clark counties, where many of the challenged voters live.
http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2008/10/06/news/state/16-suit.txt

I couldn't make a better argument against Acorn. There should be absolutely no grounds for Republicans to suspect voter fraud, but, caesu, Acorn has given them that ground with verifiable attempts to falsely register voters. From what I've read, apparently, the GOP has withdrawn it's request to challenge in Montana, and I admit there may very well have been political motivation in making the challenge in the first place. It is also very possible that with the actual cases of fraudulent registrations from Acorn, the GOP has reacted by challenging every scenario where Acorn has been heavily involved. This whole thing should never, ever have happened. Again, Acorn shouldn't have received public funds, shouldn't have endorsed Obama, Obama shouldn't have given them a lot of money and then lied about what it was for, and Acorn should never have put workers in the field on commission. Nothing is going to change the fact that Acorn bought registration forms with cigarettes, etc., campaigned for Obama as they signed up registrants, faked names on registration cards, signed multiple registrations, and encouraged persons to register multiple times. You've asked how that makes a difference on election day. I would direct the question to insiders at Acorn. It's a very, very, good question.

The logical answer is that there would be ID on election day to back up the registrations. Poll workers are volunteers. I've been one, caesu. We depend on a printout list from the registration forms. It would be so easy to do, caesu. If one person filled out eight registration forms, and each form went to a different voting location, the same person, with a different address from the registration form, could vote eight times. Any person with an ID for that person could vote eight times. My State is strict in requiring a photo ID, but not all states do. Take a look at all the various ID's that meet the criteria to vote: http://www.ncsl.org/programs/legismgt/elect/taskfc/voteridreq.htm

See how easy it would be to fraudulent vote if it was the intent of those registering voters to do so? Lots of these documents are obtainable online and printable right off your printer! This whole thing shouldn't have come up. Personally, I do believe that photo ID's should be required of all voters. It wouldn't stop all fraud, but it would slow it down.

Personally I think it's appropriate for any campaign to encourage their likely voters to register, but I'd be happier if new registrants had to do so in person with the state. It would be fine with me if a campaign provided transportation or babysitting services, or anything else they wanted to, but sending commissioned people to the streets to sign voters up officially on the spot is insane. The results are not reliably legal and when you couple that with an endorsing party funded by that candidate, it's just fertile for corruption. The GOP was stopped in Montana,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but they were forced to deal with the courts, an official body of the state. Everything about our elections should be filtered through that same body in some capacity.

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caesu
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« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2008, 04:00:39 PM »

thanks for the explanation.
it seems very complicated.

on a different note.
if McCain wil continue to make ACORN a line of attack.
it won't get him very far.

he attended a ACORN rally himself.

http://www.mdc.edu/Home/Press/rally.htm
Quote
The rally will feature Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) as the headline speaker along with elected officials, immigrants and key local and national leaders.  Sen. McCain is one of the chief sponsors of the Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act; bipartisan, comprehensive immigration reform legislation introduced last Congress and scheduled for consideration by the Senate in the coming weeks.  A similar rally with Sen. McCain is planned for New York City on February 27.

The Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act was introduced in the Senate by Senators Edward Kennedy (D-MA) and John McCain (R-AZ) and in the House by Representatives Jim Kolbe (R-AZ), Jeff Flake (R-AZ) and Luis Gutierrez (D-IL).  It addresses border security and illegal immigration while bringing the 11 million undocumented immigrants out from the shadows and onto a path to legal permanent status; setting up legal channels and realistic caps for workers and family members to enter in the future; providing for tough enforcement; and enabling more immigrants to learn English and prepare for citizenship.           

The rally in Miami is being sponsored by the New American Opportunity campaign (NAOC) in partnership with ACORN, Catholic Legal Services - Archdiocese of Miami, Florida Immigrant Advocacy Center, Florida Immigrant Coalition, Miami Dade College, People for the American Way/Mi Familia Vota en Acción, Service Employees International Union, and UNITE HERE. 


 
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WhiskeyGirl
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« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2008, 08:44:05 PM »

I believe that ACORN is made up of a number of individuals.  I believe that many had only the best intentions, and perhaps some had an agenda.

Who is responsible for training the volunteers?

What did ACORN do when they found that some volunteers had problem applications?  Did they change the wage/incentive program?

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All my posts are just my humble opinions.  Please take with a grain of salt.  Smile

It doesn't do any good to hate anyone,
they'll end up in your family anyway...
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