Caylee Marie Anthony, 2, FL Missing since June 16-just reported by mother #49

[flamom]

Nancy Grace oughta be a good one tonight, if its her there and not JVM
Nancy vs Koby, the cage match 

[Blonde]

So the rumor of Casey driving around with the dead body in the trunk for eleven days is just not true.  I didn't see how she could have stood the smell after eleven days.

ICE,IMO

I am really leaning towards that too.....no way could she have driven around with Caylee deceased and decomposing in the the trunk of the car UNLESS she were in a cooler. I don't see her burying her and then going back and digging her up and then disposing of her again....

but I still think there is a good possibility she threw her little body in an area known to have alligators....

She would have had to be in there long enough to get the stink on so bad though,right?

Yep...but I think that would happen rather quickly in the FL heat...someone, forgive me I don't remember who, posted a very good article about how the body decomposes, how long under what conditions etc...it was some time back and I didn't keep it....

I saved the info without the link

Moment of Death:
1} The heart stops
2} The skin gets tight and grey in color
3} All the muscles relax
4} The bladder and bowels empty
. . . .4a - Men will get an erection. No, I don't know when, exactly. I really didn't feel like calling up the local mortuary and asking this. And there's people on my mailing list I could have asked, I bet, but it's kind of weird popping up and asking that. No pun intended. I'm not sure my parents know what erections are, so I can't ask them. I did read that this was one of the reasons hangings were so well attended by women, back in the old.days. Big Laffs, seeing the Hung, hung.
5} The body's temperature will typically drop 1.5 degrees F. per hour unless outside environment is a factor. The liver is the organ that stays warmest the longest, and this temperature is used to establish time of death if the body is found within that time frame.
After 30 minutes:
6} The skin gets purple and waxy
7} The lips, finger- and toe nails fade to a pale color or turn white as the blood leaves.
8} Blood pools at the lowest parts of the body leaving a dark purple-black stain called lividity
9} The hands and feet turn blue
10} The eyes start to sink into the skull
After 4 hours:
11} Rigor mortis starts to set in
12} The purpling of the skin and pooling of blood continue
13} Rigor Mortis begins to tighten the muscles for about another 24 hours, then will reverse and the body will return to a limp state.
After 12 hours:
14} The body is in full rigor mortis.
After 24 hours:
15} The body is now the temperature of the surrounding environment
16} In males, the semen dies
17} The head and neck are now a greenish-blue color
18} The greenish-blue color continues to spread to the rest of the body
19} There is the strong smell of rotting meat20} The face of the person is essentially no longer recognizable
After 3 days:
21} The gases in the body tissues form large blisters on the skin
22} The whole body begins to bloat and swell grotesquely. This process is speeded up if victim is in a hot environment, or in water
23} Fluids leak from the mouth, nose, eyes, ears and rectum and urinary opening
After 3 weeks:
24} The skin, hair, and nails are so loose they can be easily pulled off the corpse
25} The skin cracks and bursts open in many places because of the pressure of Internal gases and the breakdown of the skin itself
26} Decomposition will continue until body is nothing but skeletal remains, which can take as little as a month in hot climates and two months in cold climates. The teeth are often the only thing left, years and centuries later, because tooth enamel is the strongest substance in the body. The jawbone is the densest, so that usually will also remain. So don't forget - brush regularly and floss only if you're really bored.
_____________

[stayhomemommy]

Nancy Grace oughta be a good one tonight, if its her there and not JVM
Nancy vs Koby, the cage match 

I agree.  I believe they got a lot of complaints about JVM being rude to Tim Miller...at least based on everyone here (including myself) who said they sent in a complaint. Anyhow, I saw her (JVM) fill in for Glenn Beck and she was totally different. Maybe she tried to be like Nancy when filling in for her?

Nonetheless, I am looking forward to hearing what Nancy says tonight. But if it is JVM, I won't watch and will have to get updates on here later.

[Blaze]

Say guys, what position did GA hold in Ohio with LE?  Anyone know?

I remember either George or his brother Rick saying he was a Homicide Investigator.

George would have the knowledge on how to conceal the crime better than anyone.  I think he was retired from this = he did this job for a long time.

[kerryjean1]

I went back and did a search on the forum and I don't see anyone posting about this before- so I am going to post it- just in case anyone is interested.

There is an Eric J. Baker facebook listing- but I can't view it- I am not a friend- don't know how that works

but his networks are listed as Kansas '10 and Orlando
He looks young and if he is in fact deceased I am thinking this may be him.
His picture is terrible but I enlarged it by 200% and sharpened and call me crazy- but I think there is a slight resemblance to Caylee.
I dunno- I am probably crazy- but willing to email the picture if someone wants to see it cleaned up

[Anninflorida]

At the risk of being gross, I will share with you a little info on how this Florida heat can affect a body.  This is 100% true info, as I witnessed this a few years ago.  I was doing work for a non-profit organization and we were called to come pick up a truck full of household items because the owner has passed away.  This call did not seem unusual as this often happened.  Seniors would often move to Florida, pass away and the children sometimes never wanted anything....just needed everything cleaned out.  I went to this condo, accompanied by two men that were going to pack up the contents.  The condo manager met us and accompanied us up the elevator.  The deceased mans condo was directly across from the elevator.  Immediately, I noticed towels rolled up in front of the door.  The manager explained that he had recently had an exterminator out to the condo, so I thought this was the reason for the towels.  The manager opened the door and I thought I was going to die!!! The fumes were so bad that the men with me ran to the end of the hall, heaving over the balcony.  The manager then explained that the gentleman had passed away inside the condo and was there for two weeks before being discovered.  His air conditioner was turned off and had not been on in the two week period.  The carpets had been stripped from the floor, the paint has been removed from the walls....all in an attempt to deal with the odor.  All of the man's body fluid had seeped into the carpet and had actually leaked through the floor....into the unit directly below.  That is how his body was discovered.  Of course, we told the manager that we couldn't accept anything and he told us that everything would be "disposed of."  This was a shame, as there were some great antiques in the home but I just couldn't deal with the odor and everything seemed to be saturated.  This was inside a dwelling....not in the trunk of a car. The temperatures in a car can rise very high in the Florida heat. I just cannot imagine what the situation in that car must have been like!!!

[stayhomemommy]

At the risk of being gross, I will share with you a little info on how this Florida heat can affect a body.  This is 100% true info, as I witnessed this a few years ago.  I was doing work for a non-profit organization and we were called to come pick up a truck full of household items because the owner has passed away.  This call did not seem unusual as this often happened.  Seniors would often move to Florida, pass away and the children sometimes never wanted anything....just needed everything cleaned out.  I went to this condo, accompanied by two men that were going to pack up the contents.  The condo manager met us and accompanied us up the elevator.  The deceased mans condo was directly across from the elevator.  Immediately, I noticed towels rolled up in front of the door.  The manager explained that he had recently had an exterminator out to the condo, so I thought this was the reason for the towels.  The manager opened the door and I thought I was going to die!!! The fumes were so bad that the men with me ran to the end of the hall, heaving over the balcony.  The manager then explained that the gentleman had passed away inside the condo and was there for two weeks before being discovered.  His air conditioner was turned off and had not been on in the two week period.  The carpets had been stripped from the floor, the paint has been removed from the walls....all in an attempt to deal with the odor.  All of the man's body fluid had seeped into the carpet and had actually leaked through the floor....into the unit directly below.  That is how his body was discovered.  Of course, we told the manager that we couldn't accept anything and he told us that everything would be "disposed of."  This was a shame, as there were some great antiques in the home but I just couldn't deal with the odor and everything seemed to be saturated.  This was inside a dwelling....not in the trunk of a car. The temperatures in a car can rise very high in the Florida heat. I just cannot imagine what the situation in that car must have been like!!!

Wow! Is all I can say. Well, no wonder she kept mentioning the smell to people...calling it a dead animal! Ugh. I am sick over the whole idea of it.

[Tater]

Thankyou Blonde for the facts! It at least shows me that Caylee was in the trunk long enough for her to deteriorate into a bad state for sure..Poor little Caylee....

[kerryjean1]

I went back and did a search on the forum and I don't see anyone posting about this before- so I am going to post it- just in case anyone is interested.

There is an Eric J. Baker facebook listing- but I can't view it- I am not a friend- don't know how that works

but his networks are listed as Kansas '10 and Orlando
He looks young and if he is in fact deceased I am thinking this may be him.
His picture is terrible but I enlarged it by 200% and sharpened and call me crazy- but I think there is a slight resemblance to Caylee.
I dunno- I am probably crazy- but willing to email the picture if someone wants to see it cleaned up

I am sure I will get ridiculed but here it is



moderator- if I should not be doing this- please take this picture down

[Anna]

So the rumor of Casey driving around with the dead body in the trunk for eleven days is just not true.  I didn't see how she could have stood the smell after eleven days.

ICE,IMO

I am really leaning towards that too.....no way could she have driven around with Caylee deceased and decomposing in the the trunk of the car UNLESS she were in a cooler. I don't see her burying her and then going back and digging her up and then disposing of her again....

but I still think there is a good possibility she threw her little body in an area known to have alligators....

Sunny, I believe the PDF specifies chemicals consistent with anaerobic decomp, doesn't it?  This would be consistent with a container of some sort.  I wonder if that's what the purchase at JCP could have been, a Coleman cooler or similar or one to replace one taken if the dates are not correct?

Anna!!   That certainly seems to be a HUGE possibility...and something bought at JCP was important....enough that Cindy didn't want it known and Rob Dick mentioned it being important!!

Aerobic = sustained by air/oxygen
Anaerobic = sustained without air/oxygen

Maybe I am reading that wrong but if not, the only way I can think of for decomp to happen in anaerobic manner would be in "air tight" container.  Of course we all know that everything begins to "leak" on a molecular level right away but it would cause different type of decomp.

So even in airtight container, there would be leakage but would slow down process and also create a different type of decomp than that when exposed to air.

Ergo, I conclude a container that was basically airtight was used.  Now what kind I have no idea but Igloos are used for organ transplants being flown across the country, etc.  Maybe somethng along those lines?



JMO, of course.

.

[Sal]

What was the first day that KC mentioned the smell and what day did she say she got rid of it?

[Tater]

So the rumor of Casey driving around with the dead body in the trunk for eleven days is just not true.  I didn't see how she could have stood the smell after eleven days.

ICE,IMO

I am really leaning towards that too.....no way could she have driven around with Caylee deceased and decomposing in the the trunk of the car UNLESS she were in a cooler. I don't see her burying her and then going back and digging her up and then disposing of her again....

but I still think there is a good possibility she threw her little body in an area known to have alligators....

Sunny, I believe the PDF specifies chemicals consistent with anaerobic decomp, doesn't it?  This would be consistent with a container of some sort.  I wonder if that's what the purchase at JCP could have been, a Coleman cooler or similar or one to replace one taken if the dates are not correct?

Anna!!   That certainly seems to be a HUGE possibility...and something bought at JCP was important....enough that Cindy didn't want it known and Rob Dick mentioned it being important!!

Aerobic = sustained by air/oxygen
Anaerobic = sustained without air/oxygen

Maybe I am reading that wrong but if not, the only way I can think of for decomp to happen in anaerobic manner would be in "air tight" container.  Of course we all know that everything begins to "leak" on a molecular level right away but it would cause different type of decomp.

So even in airtight container, there would be leakage but would slow down process and also create a different type of decomp than that when exposed to air.

Ergo, I conclude a container that was basically airtight was used.  Now what kind I have no idea but Igloos are used for organ transplants being flown across the country, etc.  Maybe somethng along those lines?



JMO, of course.

.

  Dry ice!!Could she have used that?

[Sal]

Wouldn't the gases being emitted from the body cause any container to pop open?

[Blaze]

Thankyou Blonde for the facts! It at least shows me that Caylee was in the trunk long enough for her to deteriorate into a bad state for sure..Poor little Caylee....

Maybe that's why KC having them nightmares.

[anothermonkey]

Everyone should read page 22 and 23 Air Sampling summary.

67% known to be associated with decomposition.
Out of 16 compounds....7 were significant HUMAN  decomp chemicals.

Casey Anthony had a decomposing HUMAN body in the trunk of her car! That is the conclusion here...it's there in black and white.  A jury will see that and hear the testimony from the people that performed the tests.

Do wh know if Casey was buying a lot of ICE?

 

Blonde ... considering what was said on Nancy Grace regarding how chloroform was made ... it would be intesteresting to know if ice was included in any of Casey Anthony's purchases and ... the related dates.

Janet

______


NANCY GRACE
Casey`s On-Line Searches for Chloroform Recipes
Aired October 22, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET

GRACE: To our producer, Natisha Lance. We had you look it up. How do you make chloroform? How difficult is it?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: It`s very easy, Nancy. You can use bleach or pool shock (ph) to make it, acetone, as well as lots of ice. And there`s another way you can make it, too, with alcohol or hypochloride.

GRACE: OK. Part of your answer cut out. Repeat. How do you make chloroform?

LANCE: There`s two different ways you can make it. One of them is with bleach or pool shock, acetone and ice.

GRACE: Wait, wa-wait. Bleach or what?

LANCE: Pool shock?

GRACE: OK. Go ahead.

LANCE: Acetone and ice. And the other way to make it is with alcohol and hypochloride.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/22/ng.01.html

Thank you for the transcripts.. 

I hope this hasn't been addressed already..  I believe the FBI report said that the chloroform air sample did not detect acetone or "alcohols"? (I'm guessing this is why Dr Flowers (?) said this suggests the chloroform in the car was "pure".. not something created with various ingredients.   Am I remembering the report correctly?

[irishbosoxfan]

I feel like I'm stuck in the middle of some long standing argument and I don't like that feeling!

I had posted my observations of the report based on my knowledge of the science involved--I am currently working on a degree in Police Science--figured I'd get that out there before it came into question!

My experience in the field goes beyond my current position as student--So much has changed since I started this calling!

I had posted what I did hopefully to dispel incorrect notions--Now that being said I understand that this is a message board and contains people from all walks of life--but for me, in my profession, it's all about facts and evidence....we do work with theorys but they have to be based on the facts

I came here because this case has wound it's way into my heart and a lot of people don't understand that they way that the people here do

I wasn't trying to incite riots or put anyone down or back anyone up--I was trying to lend my expertise to the facts in evidence--While many people do understand the reports they can be confusing and I had found that some of the report has been misconstrued and was trying to clear up the discrepincies before they became accepted as fact

We have many professional people who post and for that I am grateful--we all should be--we can learn from their hard won experiences and expand our knowledge on subjects we may not be familiar with

Everyone has opinions and should feel free to express them--our opinions are based on our feelings and the way we feel can never be wrong...but...our reasons for having those feelings can be and if someone has information that could lead to us to see those reasons differently we need to be open to listening to them

That's all--I think!! Just wanted to get this out before I was blacklisted for something beyond my control!!

[invision]

Klaas....you have mail...........TY

Do you know when you are going to be able to post those pictures from your trip?

I'm not HH .... but I know some have been anxiously awaiting pics from her trip to Orlando .... I don't know where she searched specifically ... (I think w/Murt off Boggy Creek) ... I too searched around the area of Boggy Creek Road ... it was on J. Lawson Blvd off of Boggy Creek within the "ping" area ...

I thought I would share some photos so that you all can at least see what TES and other searchers are up against .... This area is HEAVILY wooded and very swampy ... It is not a pleasant area to be walking around in BUT very easy to hide a body ...

There are A LOT of swampy, wooded areas surrounding the airport .... I was very SURPRISED when we started driving around these areas, exactly how many small lakes and wooded patches there are ...

I'm sure when HH gets back she will have some great photos to share as well ... just thought you all might like to get a "feel" for the areas (kind of like a "visual" aid)  Google Earth is good, but not as good as real photos ...

[Rob]

So the rumor of Casey driving around with the dead body in the trunk for eleven days is just not true.  I didn't see how she could have stood the smell after eleven days.

ICE,IMO

I am really leaning towards that too.....no way could she have driven around with Caylee deceased and decomposing in the the trunk of the car UNLESS she were in a cooler. I don't see her burying her and then going back and digging her up and then disposing of her again....

but I still think there is a good possibility she threw her little body in an area known to have alligators....

Sunny, I believe the PDF specifies chemicals consistent with anaerobic decomp, doesn't it?  This would be consistent with a container of some sort.  I wonder if that's what the purchase at JCP could have been, a Coleman cooler or similar or one to replace one taken if the dates are not correct?

Anna!!   That certainly seems to be a HUGE possibility...and something bought at JCP was important....enough that Cindy didn't want it known and Rob Dick mentioned it being important!!

Aerobic = sustained by air/oxygen
Anaerobic = sustained without air/oxygen

Maybe I am reading that wrong but if not, the only way I can think of for decomp to happen in anaerobic manner would be in "air tight" container.  Of course we all know that everything begins to "leak" on a molecular level right away but it would cause different type of decomp.

So even in airtight container, there would be leakage but would slow down process and also create a different type of decomp than that when exposed to air.

Ergo, I conclude a container that was basically airtight was used.  Now what kind I have no idea but Igloos are used for organ transplants being flown across the country, etc.  Maybe somethng along those lines?



JMO, of course.

.

Hi Anna, makes some sense to me... and I can add a little bit.

Scenario 1) the car is moving and the air-tight container gets jostled. Lid comes off, fluids leak out. It's easy to imagine this one.

Scenario 2) Gases from decomposing body fill the air-tight container and the lid pops of much as a lid on a container does in a microwave oven.

In any container there is the "displacement level" as discovered by Archimedes. That means there is only so much actually room contained in any object.

As the gases release the pressure builds. When the pressure hits it's limit - top pops. It's actually pretty simple.

[Tamikosmom]

I am trying so hard to keep up.  Where and in what context did the guy say they knew who the father was?

Shasta - it was Dr. Baden and he was talking on FOXNEWS that he believes LE knows who Caylee's father is based upon the DNA they have.  He sounded certain that LE would know the identity and also sounded as if he knew the identity based upon DNA.  He did not elaborate as to WHO he believed the father was.

Dr. Baden did specify that forensic DNA testing of the strands of hair could determine the paternity but ... according to the released report ... only Mitochondrial DNA testing was conducted.  Mitochondrial DNA testing  does not reveal anything about the paternity ...

However ... if DNA testing went further than Mitochondrial ... the paternity could be confirmed but ... it is my understanding ... the father's DNA would be required.  Consider the Lee Anthony's DNA was only taken not even a couple of weeks ago ...

Janet

+++++++++

On the Record w/ Greta
Caylee Search: Psychics, Jail Visits Refused, 'Body Farm' Techniques
Tuesday, August 12, 2008

VAN SUSTEREN: Did Casey Anthony's car trunk carry a dead body? Both detectives and Casey's mother, Cindy, say they noticed an odor coming from that trunk that they seemed to be -- that of a decomposing body, is what they said. Well, right now, anthropologists from the University of Tennessee's facility known as "the body farm" are testing air samples from the car's trunk. What can the tests prove?

Joining us live is forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden. Dr. Baden, can they take an air sample from the trunk and determine whether or not there had been a body decomposing in that truck?

DR. MICHAEL BADEN, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes, because after we die and the bacteria proliferate in our body and start breaking down our muscles and our fat and organs, vapors, gases, are formed with beautiful names like cadaverine (ph) and putrescine (ph) that are a particular structure that are easily picked up in the toxicology lab if they're collected from the area, the air that the body was in. And if there was a dead body in the trunk of the car and they collected the air sample, they should be able to find those chemicals.

VAN SUSTEREN: All right. Now, this timeline begins probably sometime July -- June 15 is Father's Day.

BADEN: Right.

Watch Greta's interview with Dr. Baden

VAN SUSTEREN: June 16 is the last day that the grandfather saw that child, and it isn't until July 15 that the police are called. Let's say hypothetically that a body that began decomposing as soon as the 16th...

BADEN: Right.

VAN SUSTEREN: ... Were placed in that trunk, if you examined the truck now on August whatever this is, 11, would you still -- would the test still be as effective?

QUESTION: It would not be as effective now as it was when the cadaver dog alerted to it and the detective and the grandma said they smelled the decomposition. There was also some stains there. See, the air will dissipate over time, whereas the stain that was there would still be there. And if it were decomposition fluid or blood, that can be identified. And that's better than just the odor because you can do DNA on a stain and see if it came from Casey (SIC).

VAN SUSTEREN: I suppose...

BADEN: Or the baby.

VAN SUSTEREN: I supposed that it wouldn't necessarily be that either one would necessarily be conclusive, but it's sort of the combination would certainly be more persuasive than standing alone.

BADEN: Yes. Yes. And the stain could tell you DNA. The hair -- remember, there was hair there. The hair has DNA.

VAN SUSTEREN: And can also tell whether someone had been dead or not, the hair.

BADEN: That's right. The hair can tell you who the daddy is, as well as the baby, and also whether it came from a dead person or a living person.

VAN SUSTEREN: All right, Dr. Baden. Thank you, sir.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,402098,00.html


Casey Anthony's Father To Testify Against Her In Front Of Grand Jury
POSTED: 5:56 pm EDT October 9, 2008
UPDATED: 6:29 pm EDT October 9, 2008

George and Cindy Anthony voluntarily gave up DNA samples this week so investigators could scientifically exclude either of them as the source of the hair and stain in Casey's trunk, but investigators had to get a search warrant to get Casey's brother Lee to submit to a DNA test. He also has refused to take a lie detector test for the FBI.

http://www.wftv.com/news/17680298/detail.html


Mitochondrial DNA:

Within the cell cytoplasm there are organelles called mitochondria. The mictochondria contain mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) which is the type of DNA analyzed in order to identify deceased remains.  Mitochondrial DNA is inherited from the mother, not from the father.

http://travel.state.gov/visa/immigrants/info/info_1337.html

[Anna]

A cooler type container with or without ice.  I wonder if any of the receipts found in the car by LE were for ice. 

Maybe that's where the "frozen foods" she had when Tony picked her up come into play as well as backing the car into the garage to within inches of that deep freezer?

All speculation, of course, but the anaerobic statement does tend toward a container at the least.  Perhaps one like Coleman that has the plug for drainage of water as ice melts and resulted in decomp material leaking out of that plug into the trunk.

.