Lively Case Discussion #527 9/26 - 9/29/2006

[klaasend]

Nothing too interesting in Joran's lack of a statement.
Except : Freddy has made some statments
            Ms. Martina HAD made a statment.        
            Freddy's immediate family has made statements.
Joran is an idiot. He slaps the table insead of speaking.

And what's the deal with the shoes?  I think we all agree Joran probably wears size 14.  Why would his shoes have a tag in them that says 10.5?  How is that possible?  and WHY?

[2NJSons_Mom]

Nothing too interesting in Joran's lack of a statement.
Except : Freddy has made some statments
            Ms. Martina HAD made a statment.        
            Freddy's immediate family has made statements.
Joran is an idiot. He slaps the table insead of speaking.

And what's the deal with the shoes?  I think we all agree Joran probably wears size 14.  Why would his shoes have a tag in them that says 10.5?  How is that possible?  and WHY?

I know we went thru the sizes per country and I forget which country migh have the equivalent of a 10.5....and reason tells me that a guy his height would have a 14, no problem.....I was just going with the police statement for the 10.5 fitting.  

Wonder why female officers came into play....or did I miss some along the way...(or am I mistaken... )

[klaasend]

Nothing too interesting in Joran's lack of a statement.
Except : Freddy has made some statments
            Ms. Martina HAD made a statment.        
            Freddy's immediate family has made statements.
Joran is an idiot. He slaps the table insead of speaking.

And what's the deal with the shoes?  I think we all agree Joran probably wears size 14.  Why would his shoes have a tag in them that says 10.5?  How is that possible?  and WHY?

I know we went thru the sizes per country and I forget which country migh have the equivalent of a 10.5....and reason tells me that a guy his height would have a 14, no problem.....I was just going with the police statement for the 10.5 fitting.  

Wonder why female officers came into play....or did I miss some along the way...(or am I mistaken... )

Definately a female officer.  I believe they MAY be the Dutch behavioural specialists.

[SunFreak2]

Sunfreak2,

I thought the search on the VDS pc on drugs/alchohol was done early AM on 5/30/05....long before the Twitty family knew anything had happened, to Natalee.   Don't see how this works into your last post..regarding Paulus giving a heads up to Joran at the raquet club....

Maybe it's late and I'm not comprehending as I should.

Paulus's drug research was in the early evening around 7:30 PM on Monday night 5/30.

[Shizaru]

Someone was talking about tides earlier in reference to Joran's statement that he left Natalee about 1 meter from the ocean at low tide.  I did a search on tides.  This is for Curacao but would not be much different for Aruba, as Curacao is where the official tides for that area of the world are measured.

05/29/2005 Sun 05:01AM LST 1.0  H  01:25PM LST -0.4 L  07:29PM LST 0.4  H  

05/30/2005 Mon 12:32AM LST 0.2  L  05:54AM LST 0.8  H  01:56PM LST -0.4 L  08:06PM LST 0.6  H  

05/31/2005 Tue 02:03AM LST 0.2  L  06:48AM LST 0.7  H  02:26PM LST -0.3 L  08:44PM LST 0.7  H  

What the tide table tells is what time was high tide (H) or low (L) and by how much in feet.  LST= local standard time.

So on 5/30 the tide was low at 12:32 AM by 0.2 ft.  Tide did not become high tide until 5:54 AM  and it was at 0.8 ft.  I'm not sure whether this is telling us the difference in tide heights was .8ft or was .6ft (.8-.2).  Either way, 0.8ft is only a little over 9 inches.

If someone is just in a drunken slumber, I would think the tide rushing up would awaken them, jmo.  Drugged & drunken sleep, I would think not.  However would 9 inches higher water be enough to drown someone lying 1 meter from the water at low tide? Beaches are usually sloped somewhat, so I would imagine that factors into the depth of the water, and whether she was lying on her back, side or stomach.  

I seriously doubt this is how she died, b/c her body would have washed back to shore.  Plus at almost 6AM, surely there would have been some early bird people walking the beach or fishing.

Again, jmo.

Source:
http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/get_predictions.shtml?year=2005&stn=2198+Cristobal&secstn=Schottegat,+Curacao&thh=%2b0&thm=25&tlh=%2b1&tlm=9&hh=*0.82&hl=*0.82

Thanks... the difference would actually be less than 9 inches, because if Joran were telling Deepak the truth, he would have left her there at about 2:30, 2 hours after the tide was at it's lowest point, 3.5 hours before the highest point.  So we're probably talking about at most a 5 or 6 inch rise in water level when she is 3 feet from the water's edge...  and even if the slope is very slight I think that over a 3 foot distance the beach would rise  by at least a couple inches.  

And also for her to have been drowned by the returning tide, it would need to have happened well before sunrise at 6:12, giving Joran time to go back out to the beach, find her dead, and move the body.

So while not impossible I agree, that's probably not how she died.

[klaasend]

Sunfreak2,

I thought the search on the VDS pc on drugs/alchohol was done early AM on 5/30/05....long before the Twitty family knew anything had happened, to Natalee.   Don't see how this works into your last post..regarding Paulus giving a heads up to Joran at the raquet club....

Maybe it's late and I'm not comprehending as I should.

Paulus's drug research was in the early evening around 7:30 PM on Monday night 5/30.

So definately prior to Beth/Jug and groups arrival.

[SunFreak2]

Two parts in particular jump out at me from the JVDS 8/8 statement:

He was faced once again with the declaration of the girl Martina, who was given something to drink, offered at the sexual community with him and as a result of which her lips tingled.
The suspect did not react.

This is what bothers me - "offered at the sexual community".  WTH is that?  A place like a skating rink or the Lion's Den where your price of admission is a Lioness that you swap and trade. Ughh - the thought of it makes me ill.

[crazymom]

This makes me ill just reading these statements.  It amazes me about the friendliness of the interrogators to wish Joran a Happy Birthday!!!

[Shizaru]

Sunfreak2,

I thought the search on the VDS pc on drugs/alchohol was done early AM on 5/30/05....long before the Twitty family knew anything had happened, to Natalee.   Don't see how this works into your last post..regarding Paulus giving a heads up to Joran at the raquet club....

Maybe it's late and I'm not comprehending as I should.

Paulus's drug research was in the early evening around 7:30 PM on Monday night 5/30.

So definately prior to Beth/Jug and groups arrival.

It was a google image search tho, not a regular google search.  So it looks like he was after pictures not info.  And just minutes earlier he was visting finance-related sites.  If he thought that Joran might have killed someone wouldn't dealing with that have been his priority, not checking how his stocks did? I think the alcohol/drug search may well have just been a coincidence, tho I'd like to know his explanation for it.

[Shizaru]

"The suspect has represented that he has explained that he and the missing girl walked a bit. And that a declaration is there of someone who has seen the car of Deepak Kalpoe on, some hundreds of meters away from the fisherman’s hut. He is asked for the logic of and an other one and is asked if he can explain why he then with the other boys who were place. (? Not sure what this paragraph is trying to say)"

Sounds like they are talking about the gardener, asking Joran to explain why he was seen by him at the other location with the other boys

[Kat_Gram]

From Sander's statement :
On your question if I had contact with Joran on May 31, 2005, I will explain to you the following:
I did not have contact with Joran on 31 May 2005. I did, however, have telephone contact with Freddy. The conversation went concerning my telephone that was stolen. The first time that I saw him was on Wednesday, therefore June 1, 2005. I met him at its house. Before I went to its house I called him. That was around 16:00. That was the time when I with Amanda, Flor and Gilayla went to his house.

Why is Freddy who is over 20 discusssing a lost phone at school with a 15 year old ?

[klaasend]

Two parts in particular jump out at me from the JVDS 8/8 statement:

He was faced once again with the declaration of the girl Martina, who was given something to drink, offered at the sexual community with him and as a result of which her lips tingled.
The suspect did not react.

This is what bothers me - "offered at the sexual community".  WTH is that?  A place like a skating rink or the Lion's Den where your price of admission is a Lioness that you swap and trade. Ughh - the thought of it makes me ill.

Honestly, that is something getting lost in the translation.  I don't know what it means.  Could be sex party?  Could be orgy?  Could be something else entirely.  To me it isn't that important.  We already know that women are simply objects to Joran anyway.

[Kat_Gram]

This makes me ill just reading these statements.  It amazes me about the friendliness of the interrogators to wish Joran a Happy Birthday!!!

We don't know the tone. Wishing someone a Happy Birthday while they are in jail is not a good thing .

[klaasend]

"The suspect has represented that he has explained that he and the missing girl walked a bit. And that a declaration is there of someone who has seen the car of Deepak Kalpoe on, some hundreds of meters away from the fisherman’s hut. He is asked for the logic of and an other one and is asked if he can explain why he then with the other boys who were place. (? Not sure what this paragraph is trying to say)"

Sounds like they are talking about the gardener, asking Joran to explain why he was seen by him at the other location with the other boys

Shizaru - could very well be.  I'm hoping Rammstein or some other Dutch poster will point out all the mistakes I made.  

[Kat_Gram]

Didn't Joran ask Karen if she wanted a threesome with some other guy ?
Groupsex ? Could that be the word ?

[crazymom]

This makes me ill just reading these statements.  It amazes me about the friendliness of the interrogators to wish Joran a Happy Birthday!!!

We don't know the tone. Wishing someone a Happy Birthday while they are in jail is not a good thing .

That's true.  I would like to wipe that smirk/grin off Joran's face.

[SunFreak2]

Sunfreak2,

I thought the search on the VDS pc on drugs/alchohol was done early AM on 5/30/05....long before the Twitty family knew anything had happened, to Natalee.   Don't see how this works into your last post..regarding Paulus giving a heads up to Joran at the raquet club....

Maybe it's late and I'm not comprehending as I should.

Paulus's drug research was in the early evening around 7:30 PM on Monday night 5/30.

So definately prior to Beth/Jug and groups arrival.

It was a google image search tho, not a regular google search.  So it looks like he was after pictures not info.  And just minutes earlier he was visting finance-related sites.  If he thought that Joran might have killed someone wouldn't dealing with that have been his priority, not checking how his stocks did? I think the alcohol/drug search may well have just been a coincidence, tho I'd like to know his explanation for it.

He searched the images, then clicked for the text. Saved the information and later deleted it. Paulus was in a hurry, checked his money, checked the drugs & alchol actions on young people, found lawyers names & numbers.  Then met up with Joran or in reverse order.  Either way he was in a rush, he had a time constraint.

[crazymom]

Have our Aruba bound monkeys made their trip and return yet?  f so, I wonder what they were able to find out.

[SunFreak2]

This makes me ill just reading these statements.  It amazes me about the friendliness of the interrogators to wish Joran a Happy Birthday!!!

We don't know the tone. Wishing someone a Happy Birthday while they are in jail is not a good thing .

Don't forget that he went from juvenile status to adult status at this birthday and was moved into the "big Boy" side of the prison.

[Kat_Gram]

What if the location was Malmok Beach ?
The call from Joran to Deepak came from the vicinity of the huts / Mariott. You  can't pinpoint, there is a raduis depending on what cell tower you are near.
Sandor's phone had something in it that he was worried about.
Hence it was " stolen " at school on the Monday. Then he discussed this with Freddy on the Tuesday. Then he gets rid of the phone. Do cell phones with picture taking transmissions have memory that could be retrieved ? Bad sentence. Late, but you know what I mean.