Lively Case Discussion #528 9/29 - 10/2/2006

[Anna]

MsMarple - I got the impression that BOC did read your thread and was outraged by the information.

Maybe so, but no "worthy advice" was offered.

I thought it sounded dismissive since "Most murders happen to those from South America and those dealing in the drug and sex slave trade!" (quote/unquote).

I'm pretty sure the FBI includes those kinds of victims too.

I took it that he thought our line of thought was BS because these crimes only happen to those involved with drugs.  NOT SO!  Most of the assaults listed on that thread were perpetrated upon tourists and that was the point of that.  

While we do not know what happened to Bud Larson, Aruba is involved in saying another person died of natural causes I believe early this year, a tourist too, when in fact it was strangulation,  Interpol is on that one.  And now I wonder about the natural causes claim for healthy looking Robert Benson as well.  There is a reason the Dutch are asking for DNA on suicides of the past as well.  

Any country's murder rate is going to be inflated by drug crimes including that of this one which is what Aruba is always comparing itself to constantly.  

Sorry BOC feels that way if in fact MsM and I are reading him correctly but I don't think it is in the interest of tourist safety to have "experts" citing one murder in the last twenty years as this creates a totally false image of a crime free environment.  Then when "something bad" happens, we are asked why we let out children go there in the first place.

Well, if we knew the truth about the crime there, maybe we wouldn't allow them to go and that would eliminate the need for Arubans to try to shift the blame to the parents of kids allowed to go there who think it is crime free as claimed by AHATA and the Aruban government.  We were first told that there were no crime stats kept crime was so low and now it seems that there are and they are even disputed by their own police.

I will just carry forward and onward with getting this information to whomever I think should know about it and might also help spreading the truth about the crime rate there.  It would make a tremendous difference to me if I knew the truth rather than the tourism PR when considering allowing a child of mine to go there on a graduation trip.

[klaasend]

Posted by Paul at FOB regarding Jensen's show:

Jensen! (RTL5, 22:32) - De moeder van vermiste Amerikaanse tiener Natalee Holloway was afgelopen donderdag te gast in de talkshow van Robert Jensen. Het was volgens RTL de eerste keer dat de moeder van Holloway in een Nederlandse talkshow te gast was. In de
talkshow riep Beth Holloway de Nederlandse overheid op om het onderzoek naar de
verdwijning van haar dochter over te nemen van de Arubaanse overheid. Ze heeft de hoop
opgegeven dat het lichaam van haar vermiste dochter nog gevonden zal worden. Om het
drama te kunnen verwerken, zou ze nog wel graag willen weten wat er precies is gebeurd. Ze
ziet de Nederlandse Joran van der Sloot nog steeds als de hoofdverdachte in deze zaak.
Holloway: ôHij weet wat hij heeft gedaan, hij weet hetô. Van der Sloot wilde Beth niet
ontmoeten nu zij in Nederland is, vertelde zij. De 18-jarige Natalee Holloway verdween op
30 mei 2005 tijdens een vakantie op Aruba met klasgenoten ter gelegenheid van het behalen
van haar middelbare schooldiploma. Het interview met Beth Holloway werd donderdag
door 450.000 kijkers (madl: 8.3%) bekeken op de late avond van RTL 5. De talkshow van
Robert Jensen scoorde gisteren 322.000 kijkers (madl: 5.4%).

Jensen ratings for BHT show 8.3% vs 5.4% for the next night. 450000 vs 322000 is 128000 more viewers as reported in this article.

I do not know if Dutch tv ratings are as selfserving as US funded "rating services".

Was it a ratings grab or an attempt to expand Jensen show into a different market.

BHT attempted to take the game to her opponents home turf after a loss in NYC. From the numbers one can conclude it was not a spectacular effort.

From the numbers the Netherlands like the US has little interest in Holloway.

When questioned about JVdS, BHT, or NH it appears the majority of the Dutch would ask "Who"?

A swing and a miss for BHT with no home court advantage.

[Shizaru]

Shizaru - WHY?  What if "something bad" had already happened?  What if Deepak and Satish told Joran it was his problem and left him there?  Why wouldn't they?  Joran had good friends living nearby.  He could walk to the Gottenbos home.

I'm going on the assumption that the text messages were not a clever ruse to fool police, that in fact Joran and Deepak did not anticipate their text messages would be read by police at the time they sent them.  Which I think is very likely, because the idea that they were intended as an alibi isn't logical, for reasons I've stated before.  And which rules out "something bad" happening while Joran and Deepak were together prior to exchanging their messages, because then it would have been mentioned, or at least there would have been some hint that something had gone wrong. Deepak wouldn't have just been saying things like "Goodnight, take care". ect.

Ok, well even if something bad hadn't happened, what makes you think Deepak and Satish wouldn't drop Joran and Natalee off at Arashi?  Joran had other friends that could pick him up (Jaime, Freddy, Guido, Koen, Andre Dos Santos, etc).  Edit - forgot to add PAULUS

It seems to me that if they were going to be dropped off at some beach it makes a lot more sense for it to be a beach near her hotel, where he could just leave her to walk back on her own afterwords, and he only had to walk 2 miles to get home himself if it turned out that he couldn't get a ride from any of his friends.  Also, if they were left on Arashi, then how did Joran get home?  I assume there's no phone record of him calling any other friends or Paulus after his call to Deepak, and unlikely he walked the 4 miles between Arashi and Montanja.  The Arashi dropoff theory isn't totally implausable, but I think the Marriott beach is the more likely dropoff point.  

Do you know if the statements by the 3 fishermen are in the pipeline? I'd like to know exactly where they say they were that night.

[klaasend]

BOC's comment regarding the M&C thread:

In my opinion this is bull crap! Murders seem to be covered up for tourism sake! Most murders happen to those from South America and those dealing in the drug and sex slave trade!

My agencies continue to NOT sell Aruba and we discourage other travel professionals not to!

Remember Aruba used to be in our top ten in sales each year! The Marriott and ATA offered me a deal for Aruba and my cost would be $69. I told hem at this point you could not pay me to travel there!

I guess I read this entirely different than msmarple and Anna.  I thought BOC was saying the murders and crimes REPORTED in Aruba are BS.  He goes on to say how his agency will NOT sell Aruba and that you could not pay him to travel there.

BOC has already spoken about the crimes in ARUBA at a travel industry conference.

[Anna]

Shizaru,
It would make sense to drop Joran and Natalee off there if there were others present who could take Joran home such as Freddie or Koen.  Remember Anita first said there were adults where Joran left Natalee?

We just don't know enough to tie anything down as a hard fast fact.  Unfortunately.

JMO.

[NM]

RE: paul from fob, they can't see their hand infront of their face.  They refuse to see any good in Beth, or anything related.  How, why, do they think Beth is trying to top jurin?! She is trying to find her daughter. There are more Dutch that know WHO Nat is now than before. And I personally am glad to know that some if not many Dutch are not heartless, monsters like those involved in the crimes against Nat and her family.
the haters are grasping a their own foul air.

[klaasend]

Shizaru - I don't know what statements are still left.  There may be many we haven't received yet but I don't know.

As far as walking to Montanja...why not just walk to Malmuk?  He could get Koen or Sander to help him.  Remember how Sander conveniently had his cell phone stollen at school on May 30th?

[Anna]

BOC's comment regarding the M&C thread:

In my opinion this is bull crap! Murders seem to be covered up for tourism sake! Most murders happen to those from South America and those dealing in the drug and sex slave trade!

My agencies continue to NOT sell Aruba and we discourage other travel professionals not to!

Remember Aruba used to be in our top ten in sales each year! The Marriott and ATA offered me a deal for Aruba and my cost would be $69. I told hem at this point you could not pay me to travel there!

I guess I read this entirely different than msmarple and Anna.  I thought BOC was saying the murders and crimes REPORTED in Aruba are BS.  He goes on to say how his agency will NOT sell Aruba and that you could not pay him to travel there.

BOC has already spoken about the crimes in ARUBA at a travel industry conference.

Sure hope you are right, Klaas, and it is not us he is calling BS.  He could take that summary on Page 6 and give it legs that we cannot.  The problem is how would anybody know the crime rate there since the government and tourism industry seem to be one body?  

I'd like some attention given to the fact that the Caribbean is second in the World in the number of AIDS per capita, second only to sub-Sahara Africa as well.  That creeps me out!!  Especially with these locals and their drugging and raping activities.  

It's all something to consider in viewing this as the ideal tourist destination Aruba sells itself as being.  It is far from ideal in my opinion, not even close.

.

[Shizaru]

Shizaru - I don't know what statements are still left.  There may be many we haven't received yet but I don't know.

As far as walking to Montanja...why not just walk to Malmuk?  He could get Koen or Sander to help him.  Remember how Sander conveniently had his cell phone stollen at school on May 30th?

Maybe, but wouldn't he have called them first? And if Joran had called Sander there would still be a record of it even without Sanders' phone.

[klaasend]

Shizaru - I don't know what statements are still left.  There may be many we haven't received yet but I don't know.

As far as walking to Montanja...why not just walk to Malmuk?  He could get Koen or Sander to help him.  Remember how Sander conveniently had his cell phone stollen at school on May 30th?

Maybe, but wouldn't he have called them first? And if Joran had called Sander there would still be a record of it even without Sanders' phone.

1.  Joran wouldn't need to call Koen and Sander, he could walk to their house and knock on their window.

2.  We don't know how much more information is out there on the cell phone traffic that night.  We also don't know how accurate the information in the cell phone statement is.

[Anna]

.
I wonder if all the information sent to Holland went to this Rural Police group that is coming to Aruba and not to the National Forensic Institute the way the computers did.  

The phone records for example.  Remember the computer statements carry a disclaimer that lots of stuff was deleted that they couldn't retrieve or didn't try.  Could be the same with the phone records or worse.

[San]

.
I wonder if all the information sent to Holland went to this Rural Police group that is coming to Aruba and not to the National Forensic Institute the way the computers did.  

The phone records for example.  Remember the computer statements carry a disclaimer that lots of stuff was deleted that they couldn't retrieve or didn't try.  Could be the same with the phone records or worse.

I agree Anna.

[klaasend]

.
I wonder if all the information sent to Holland went to this Rural Police group that is coming to Aruba and not to the National Forensic Institute the way the computers did.  

The phone records for example.  Remember the computer statements carry a disclaimer that lots of stuff was deleted that they couldn't retrieve or didn't try.  Could be the same with the phone records or worse.

Or they had to say that because the records were so damning.

[San]

.
I wonder if all the information sent to Holland went to this Rural Police group that is coming to Aruba and not to the National Forensic Institute the way the computers did.  

The phone records for example.  Remember the computer statements carry a disclaimer that lots of stuff was deleted that they couldn't retrieve or didn't try.  Could be the same with the phone records or worse.

Or they had to say that because the records were so damning.

Now I really agree with this.  We are not seeing a true picture of the phone records.

[Anna]

When they speak of scratches on Guido's face and make up, I think it is something on this order that they are talking about and not regular make up.  Sometimes this is done closer to the eyes in black, etc. for a sort of Goth/Angst look.

I don't think he actually had scratches but something on this order at least according to his attorney.  Sure did get out of Dodge in a hurry, however.

Just something to think about. . .

[oldfart]

Good Day Monkeys..
Just peeking in for a bit...

I'm so glad that Beth's interview went well and appears to have received at least some positive feedback

[Anna]

Sorry for semi-blowing the margins.  I did look at it in preview and it appeared OK.  

Guess we will be off this page pretty soon anyway or I can fix it if it is bad for others reading later.

.

[Sam]

BOC's comment regarding the M&C thread:

In my opinion this is bull crap! Murders seem to be covered up for tourism sake! Most murders happen to those from South America and those dealing in the drug and sex slave trade!

My agencies continue to NOT sell Aruba and we discourage other travel professionals not to!

Remember Aruba used to be in our top ten in sales each year! The Marriott and ATA offered me a deal for Aruba and my cost would be $69. I told hem at this point you could not pay me to travel there!

I guess I read this entirely different than msmarple and Anna.  I thought BOC was saying the murders and crimes REPORTED in Aruba are BS.  He goes on to say how his agency will NOT sell Aruba and that you could not pay him to travel there.

BOC has already spoken about the crimes in ARUBA at a travel industry conference.

Just a quick drive by. I read BOC post as saying the murders that we do see Aruba willing to acknowledge are the ones that are did by the sex and drug trade and those from South Aamerica.

[San]

Sorry for semi-blowing the margins.  I did look at it in preview and it appeared OK.  

Guess we will be off this page pretty soon anyway or I can fix it if it is bad for others reading later.

.

It's fine Anna.

[Shizaru]

Shizaru - I don't know what statements are still left.  There may be many we haven't received yet but I don't know.

As far as walking to Montanja...why not just walk to Malmuk?  He could get Koen or Sander to help him.  Remember how Sander conveniently had his cell phone stollen at school on May 30th?

Maybe, but wouldn't he have called them first? And if Joran had called Sander there would still be a record of it even without Sanders' phone.

1.  Joran wouldn't need to call Koen and Sander, he could walk to their house and knock on their window.

2.  We don't know how much more information is out there on the cell phone traffic that night.  We also don't know how accurate the information in the cell phone statement is.

1.  Maybe, but I think he'd have tried calling them first, rather than just showing up.  Just how far from Arashi do they live?

And does Arashi use the same cell tower as Hadicurari? Because if not I don't think the Arashi dropff scenario works, Joran's call to Deepak places him somewhere within the radius of whatever cell tower covers Hadicurari.  

2.  I think if there were any calls by Joran to Paulus or any of his friends after the call to Deepak, we'd most likely have heard of it by now.  I don't buy that there is a conspiracy by police to cover up phone records.