Lively Case Discussion #486 7/3 - 7/4/2006

[Shell]

Tylergal, Dad is deemed not competant to drive, and should not be alone, but is also very independent.  He keeps looking for his keys for the car, and insists that he has to walk to local stores before he forgets how to walk.  I have a perpetual lump in my throat, for we are taking this day by day.  Today, told my sister that it's hard to decide what to do first, for none of us are prepared for this role reversal.

Thank you for asking...we need the strength to get through this.

Quoting from page 5 for you Tylergal..you missed it.  Thanks, again for asking.

I wish I had some words of wisdom, but that is not something I have experienced thus far.  It is hard when there are role reversals, that... I do know, my Mom just wasn't the same as her health declined. I knew I had lost the Mom I once knew. My thoughts and prayers are coming your way.

[Kat_Gram]

Chyna Doll & I just got home. Poor little baby had to have 10 stitches on the left side of her face between the eyebrow & ear down almost to her mouth.  I was in the shower so I am not really sure how it happened, but I think she did it on the babygate some how.  The babygate was up between the wall and the bathroom sink cabinets and there was a small space where the cabinets over hang from the floor.  I heard this terrible cry and then barking so I jumped out of the shower and saw the blood.  She had her teeth cleaned at the same time as the repair of the laceration.  She had to have IV fluids and IV antibiotic, and was sent home with more antibiotics, pain medications and a soft Elizabethan collar.  Stitches come out in 7 days.  Baby gate went in the trash.  I'm a mess, but grateful it wasn't worse. Hug your babies tight today, for we never know what is going to happen.  Thank you all for your prayers and kind words.

Glad she is ok. My kiddo's cat had one of those collars. Looked like a mini satellite dish. Bet you are spoiling your baby ! ! kisses.

[Sleuth]

Houdini - I agree completely.  My gut feeling is that the Kalpoes are merely chauffers, Paulus is up to his eyeballs in this and called in a lot of favors.

[oldfart]

Sleuth wrote:

Houdini - I agree. Shizaru's comment that no one has any info would hold true, as the accomplices are not coming forward. Is it possible that no one else saw anything??

Well if you believe (as I) that Joran could not have disposed of a body so efficiently alone.  You have to form a list of possible accomplices.  At this point, I don't think the Kalpoes did anything but provide the initial transportation from Carlos & Charlie's. If they knew anything else they would have sang when it looked like the rich kid was going to pin it on them.
That said, we look to Joran's closer friends for assistance, and he has many.  His was a priviledged life on the island as most of the Dutch there appear to be.

so are you saying they dropped Joran and Natalee at the beach & subsequent phone calls e-mail storys are trrue?
 It does not add up...  JMO

[Jacqueline]

Not to me, BT.....

Me either.

NJ~ you and yours, in my thoughts and prayers.

[Houdini]

Tylergal wrote:

I agree that some of his story is true, and he embellished it to make it better, thinking it might garner a reward more quickly.

That must be the "guy and the girl" on the beach part, because everything, and I mean everything else doesn't make sense.

The "guy and the girl" on the beach part is so ambiguous that there's nothing to verify.  No discernible description of either that would justify recognition of either.

I was excited about the possible physical evidence that would have made him credible, but that appears to be vapor.

[klaasend]

Sleuth wrote:

Houdini - I agree. Shizaru's comment that no one has any info would hold true, as the accomplices are not coming forward. Is it possible that no one else saw anything??

Well if you believe (as I) that Joran could not have disposed of a body so efficiently alone.  You have to form a list of possible accomplices.  At this point, I don't think the Kalpoes did anything but provide the initial transportation from Carlos & Charlie's. If they knew anything else they would have sang when it looked like the rich kid was going to pin it on them.
That said, we look to Joran's closer friends for assistance, and he has many.  His was a priviledged life on the island as most of the Dutch there appear to be.

so are you saying they dropped Joran and Natalee at the beach & subsequent phone calls e-mail storys are trrue?
 It does not add up...  JMO

If they were dropped off at the beach it wasn't at the Marriott, it was near the Lighthouse, IMO.

[Shell]

Shizaru wrote:

Perhaps no one has come forwatd with info because no one has any info. Joran was left alone with her on the deserted beach, where he killed her and disposed of her with no witnesses.

While I think the first part of your hypothesis is credible, I do not believe Joran had the "where with all" to dispose of a body so efficiently without help.  

ALOT of help!!!!!    JMHO

I agree, and I think if she were buried on that island, and anyone besides J , Pop Sloot and K2's knew, they would spill the beans for the money. (Unless, to tell what you know means you are toast, which is a possibility.)For that reason, I feel like Natalee's final resting place is the ocean.

[Houdini]

Oldfart wrote:

so are you saying they dropped Joran and Natalee at the beach & subsequent phone calls e-mail storys are trrue?
It does not add up... JMO

Hell OF, it's shaping up to be the ONLY thing that makes sense.  Joran used Deepak via emails and phone calls to provide a half-assed alibi without telling him what was happening.

That might explain parts of the conversation in the Van by both angry Kalpoes, when they thought Joran had set them up for the fall.  With the help of Joran's father because of the pool meeting.

[Houdini]

Shell wrote:

I agree, and I think if she were buried on that island, and anyone besides J , Pop Sloot and K2's knew, they would spill the beans for the money. (Unless, to tell what you know means you are toast, which is a possibility.)For that reason, I feel like Natalee's final resting place is the ocean.

You know for the longest time I thought the Crematorium was involved, but Joran's apprehension about the missing shoe has me believing otherwise.  The shoe would have been burned also, unless whoever was doing the burning saved the shoe for "insurance".

But this is SPECUATION, I have no proof either way.

[Shizaru]

What surprises me is that no one with actual information has come forward with info to claim the reward money.  If there were any transient workers that knew something, I would think they would have come forth long ago.

There of course are the false tips where someone throws something out there hoping it might come true, but why no one that really has information.

Perhaps no one has come forwatd with info because no one has any info.  Joran was left alone with her on the deserted beach, where he killed her and disposed of her with no witnesses.

Possibly, but they all know what eventually happened to Natalee.  There wouldn't be a coverup if they didn't know.

Who is "they"?

As soon as I typed that I knew it wasn't clear.  I think it's possible that Deepak and Satish do not know the final outcome.  I do believe Paulus, Jan Van Der Straaten, Dompig and others know.

2K: I think there's a very good chance they don't know the final outcome, in fact I'm leaning that way.  Also very possible tho that 2K know the final outcome and Joran doesn't, if Joran raped her, left her passed out on beach, then 2K came back and killed her.  

Paulus: I think there's about a 50/50 chance he knows, altho I don't think he knew at the time the Alabama group first confronted him, because if he'd been involved at that point J2K would have had a better lie ready than the HI story  

VDStraaten: I doubt he knows, but don't totally dismiss the possibility that it's true Joran confessed to him.  I do totally dismiss the possibility that her body was actually found, the probability that ALE could have kept that a secret is zero.  

Dompig: I don't think he has a clue

IMO, at most there are only 4 or 5 people in the world who know, and could easily be only 1 or 2.

[Shell]

Sleuth wrote:

Houdini - I agree. Shizaru's comment that no one has any info would hold true, as the accomplices are not coming forward. Is it possible that no one else saw anything??

Well if you believe (as I) that Joran could not have disposed of a body so efficiently alone.  You have to form a list of possible accomplices.  At this point, I don't think the Kalpoes did anything but provide the initial transportation from Carlos & Charlie's.  If they knew anything else they would have sang when it looked like the rich kid was going to pin it on them.
That said, we look to Joran's closer friends for assistance, and he has many.  His was a priviledged life on the island as most of the Dutch there appear to be.

I think the Kalpoes did a bit more than provide transportation.

[terryd270]

BTGirl,

I jsut wanted to say that the fire works scare me so leave the light on, ok.. I cannot tell you how hot it is around here. The temperature have gotten over 110 degrees . You can fry an egg right on either the pavement or Joran's equally LARGE forehead. (Not that you would want to).  I heard him on the other website asking Glenda "WHAT'S WRONG WITH ME, JULIA?" ..  Julia answered him "WHOA, DARLING!  IF'N I COULD REARRANGE THE ALPHABET, I'D PUT 'U' AND 'ME' TOGETHER!"
What she REALLY means is she would put "U" and "I" together. But she is so dumb she forgets to say it right.

Did you see him looking at Bo when he got served...He glowered back at Bo, like one of those angry giant saltwater crocodiles on a nature show who got stranded way out on barrier sandbar one typhoon season a long time ago and as a result hasn’t mated in 7 years.  

Rumor has it that Joran is back in therapy and its not good.. She started telling him that he should blame all his troubles on his PARENTS. He said why the hell should he blame his parents, they didn’t do nothing. She said YES, they did do something: They had you for a start.

[Tylergal]

Tyler

Would you please either post the garden lasagna information in the lounge again or e-mail it to me?

Thanks!

I will be happy to in a short while.  I am on different computer right now.  

[Houdini]

Shizaru wrote:

IMO, at most there are only 4 or 5 people in the world who know, and could easily be only 1 or 2.

If she was murdered, the disposal of the body holds the key to how many people in the world know.   JMHO

[BTgirl]

BTGirl,

I jsut wanted to say that the fire works scare me so leave the light on, ok.. I cannot tell you how hot it is around here. The temperature have gotten over 110 degrees . You can fry an egg right on either the pavement or Joran's equally LARGE forehead. (Not that you would want to).  I heard him on the other website asking Glenda "WHAT'S WRONG WITH ME, JULIA?" ..  Julia answered him "WHOA, DARLING!  IF'N I COULD REARRANGE THE ALPHABET, I'D PUT 'U' AND 'ME' TOGETHER!"
What she REALLY means is she would put "U" and "I" together. But she is so dumb she forgets to say it right.

Did you see him looking at Bo when he got served...He glowered back at Bo, like one of those angry giant saltwater crocodiles on a nature show who got stranded way out on barrier sandbar one typhoon season a long time ago and as a result hasn’t mated in 7 years.  

Rumor has it that Joran is back in therapy and its not good.. She started telling him that he should blame all his troubles on his PARENTS. He said why the hell should he blame his parents, they didn’t do nothing. She said YES, they did do something: They had you for a start.

               

[Tylergal]

BTGirl,

I jsut wanted to say that the fire works scare me so leave the light on, ok.. I cannot tell you how hot it is around here. The temperature have gotten over 110 degrees . You can fry an egg right on either the pavement or Joran's equally LARGE forehead. (Not that you would want to).  I heard him on the other website asking Glenda "WHAT'S WRONG WITH ME, JULIA?" ..  Julia answered him "WHOA, DARLING!  IF'N I COULD REARRANGE THE ALPHABET, I'D PUT 'U' AND 'ME' TOGETHER!"
What she REALLY means is she would put "U" and "I" together. But she is so dumb she forgets to say it right.

Did you see him looking at Bo when he got served...He glowered back at Bo, like one of those angry giant saltwater crocodiles on a nature show who got stranded way out on barrier sandbar one typhoon season a long time ago and as a result hasn’t mated in 7 years.  

Rumor has it that Joran is back in therapy and its not good.. She started telling him that he should blame all his troubles on his PARENTS. He said why the hell should he blame his parents, they didn’t do nothing. She said YES, they did do something: They had you for a start.

No, If I could, I would "put you and me together," is correct.  It is objective, not subjective.

This is a big peeve with me when I hear TV personalities say "send it to her and I," or "it was given to my wife and I."  

Gee!  That makes me want to scream!  It is objective in that case and it is "me, me, me, me, me, me."

Off my English soapbox.

I love you, Terry.  Not everybody majored in English.

[Houdini]

Shell wrote:

I think the Kalpoes did a bit more than provide transportation.

Well without the verification of blood in the car, we have nothing to prove they did nothing but drive them to the beach.

I think they might have done more, but I don't think they know where she ended up or they would have told.  If they weren't involved in the clean up, then who helped Joran?

I think there is a good possibility that they weren't Joran's "pimp" friends and he used the phone calls and emails to provide a "spur of the moment" alibi in case she was traced back to him.

[oldfart]

Oldfart wrote:

so are you saying they dropped Joran and Natalee at the beach & subsequent phone calls e-mail storys are trrue?
It does not add up... JMO

Hell OF, it's shaping up to be the ONLY thing that makes sense.  Joran used Deepak via emails and phone calls to provide a half-assed alibi without telling him what was happening.

That might explain parts of the conversation in the Van by both angry Kalpoes, when they thought Joran had set them up for the fall.  With the help of Joran's father because of the pool meeting.

Houdini
Ok... Kinda makes since but why meeting at the pool? if you want to keep the the K'2 in the dark?
Why the HI story? and Deepak  agreeing to it?
What of the Gardner ?  did Art ever state that the gardner passed a polygraph or only that he found him sincere and creditable???

I just got thru with the podcast..  missed it last night
and I'm kinda right now even though I had my with me while listening to Art & Dana.

[BTgirl]

Terry,

I'm sure Tyler is right, but I wasn't laughing at your grammar, I swear.

I just thought it was funny to call Julia dumb.