Lively Case Discussion #486 7/3 - 7/4/2006

[Houdini]

Easywriter wrote:

It is a truism for all life, not just this case.

I knew that Easy.  We were just having a discussion about who we thought knew what, and I thought I would put you on the spot.

[AZLady]

Did I understand Art correctly in that the "Gardner" is still on Island and they know where he is ?

Can Jossy verify this?   Can he verify that he ended up sleeping in the house he was headed to that night?

A witness not detained and still available?  Did ALE ever bring charges against Junior (land fill guy) for giving false testimony?

Just wondering

Very good catch, OF!     No, I do not believe charges were filed against Junior the Landfill Witness for lying, were they?  And yet, isn't this the same circumstances as the Carlos the Columbian?  Yes, I heard Art say that Carlos the Gardener is still on the island and is a very credible witness.  Hope someone is protecting him.

[Anna]

.Yeah, but the "joke" won't work with the word me as it is not in the
alphabet.  Yes, I agree me is the objective case but it is not a letter of the alphabet.  Has to be "U" and "I" to be letters of the alphabet which of the point of the joke.

While I agree that is ungrammatical, it won't work otherwise.  Therefore
it is a very stupid little ditty.  Move the letter U next to I, see, letters of
the alphabet.

Oh, nevermind. . . . . . . . . .  

[AZLady]

But were we assuming consistency in the actions of the ALE?  This is one more example of selective justice on that island.

[Houdini]

AZLady wrote:

I think Joran and Paulus already have intimidated Satish to within an inch of his sanity. They are also holding some sort of blackmail over Deepak with Satish in the middle of it.

I thought this a possibility.  It might be the reason Joran agreed to be interviewed with Greta, just to implicate Satish in the latest scenario.  Which might indicate that Deepak had something to tell, or maybe he has the missing shoe with NH blood on it.

[Sleuth]

AZLady -  

I actually can spell. My problem is that I have a habit of submitting first and spell checking after  

[Kat_Gram]

Did I understand Art correctly in that the "Gardner" is still on Island and they know where he is ?

Can Jossy verify this?   Can he verify that he ended up sleeping in the house he was headed to that night?

A witness not detained and still available?  Did ALE ever bring charges against Junior (land fill guy) for giving false testimony?

Just wondering

Art did not say if the first Carlos took a lie detector test.
But he did say that he was still there.
I have to print the transcript off and re read it tomorow.
Don't have a printer here, just at work and SIL's.
I am still a " paper" person. Old habits die hard.
I do like to hear first hand info from persons who spoke to these people becasue, like Art said something to the jist of that a trained listener can
pick up on inflections in the voice, eye and hand movements, speed of speech and make a detemination based on years of training whether the person is credible.
ps  Mums can do it with their kids.

[Easywriter]

Easywriter wrote:

It is a truism for all life, not just this case.

I knew that Easy.  We were just having a discussion about who we thought knew what, and I thought I would put you on the spot.

I think a lot of people know “what” and that is why this is all so puzzling.  The “what” we should examine has to do with the “why” and we can’t get to that facet of the discussion.

[AZLady]

AZLady wrote:

I think Joran and Paulus already have intimidated Satish to within an inch of his sanity. They are also holding some sort of blackmail over Deepak with Satish in the middle of it.

I thought this a possibility.  It might be the reason Joran agreed to be interviewed with Greta, just to implicate Satish in the latest scenario.  Which might indicate that Deepak had something to tell, or maybe he has the missing shoe with NH blood on it.

This is the typical modus operandi on that island.  They find out what someone fears or hides, and then use it to control the person.  I think, for some reason, they are blackmailing Deepak into silence to protect Freddy.  They are using Satish to do this. Deepak wants Satish protected and kept out of this.  Knowing this, Joran and Paulus are telling Deepak to keep his mouth shut about Freddy, and other things, and they will keep Satish out of it.  This game spreads to other players, too.  Deals and more deals.  Blackmail and false promises.  This house of cards will topple when one person decides not to play the game and tells all he knows.  I wonder who that will be--it's only a matter of time.  As Jossy has said, there are too many involved to keep a secret.   They use threats and intimidation to shut people up, but this won't work on everyone.  They will some across one person, perhaps a young girl, or an older man, who will talk.  Then we will see some fireworks.

[oldfart]

But were we assuming consistency in the actions of the ALE?  This is one more example of selective justice on that island.

Exactly... but why not throw Juniors tail  in Jail?
When was Mickeys and Abraham arrested (time of day) when did search of homes occur?

and then when was JVDS / Kalpoe's arrested and homes searched?

Just more wood on the cover up bonfire to me...

[AZLady]

AZLady -  

I actually can spell. My problem is that I have a habit of submitting first and spell checking after  

That's the usual process, isn't it?  At least, my students think so!  

[Anna]

.
Remember the article Klaas posted recently about not assuming something to be a fact just because it seems logical to you?  Lately
I have been thinking more along the lines of a smaller circle in the know.  How about if only Joran and possibly Paulus were involved in concealing what happened.  What if Joran did it all on his own then went home and
eventually informed Paulus.  In turn Paulus may have eventually informed Anita of what their Sporter did but maybe not.

Why do we assume that this strapping six foot five kid would need any help and his hobby was criminal law and crimes so perhaps he had long ago thought of a plan to have on hand, just for kicks, nothing serious, just a what if kind of question.  Then something bad happened and he had to use it.

I think Joran alone may have done at least the first temporary disposal.  Paulus may have told him no, you were last seen with her, this won't do and dug up the remains for relocation.  But what if only those two were involved?  That could be why no one has come forth with information, they really don't know.

Of course, I reserve the right to completely change my theory at any given moment.  

[klaasend]

.
Remember the article Klaas posted recently about not assuming something to be a fact just because it seems logical to you?  Lately
I have been thinking more along the lines of a smaller circle in the know.  How about if only Joran and possibly Paulus were involved in concealing what happened.  What if Joran did it all on his own then went home and
eventually informed Paulus.  In turn Paulus may have eventually informed Anita of what their Sporter did but maybe not.

Why do we assume that this strapping six foot five kid would need any help and his hobby was criminal law and crimes so perhaps he had long ago thought of a plan to have on hand, just for kicks, nothing serious, just a what if kind of question.  Then something bad happened and he had to use it.

I think Joran alone may have done at least the first temporary disposal.  Paulus may have told him no, you were last seen with her, this won't do and dug up the remains for relocation.  But what if only those two were involved?  That could be why no one has come forth with information, they really don't know.

Of course, I reserve the right to completely change my theory at any given moment.  

Very possible, IMO.  The only thing that holds me back is Deepak and Satish going along with the lies.

[Houdini]

Anna wrote:

I think Joran alone may have done at least the first temporary disposal. Paulus may have told him no, you were last seen with her, this won't do and dug up the remains for relocation. But what if only those two were involved? That could be why no one has come forth with information, they really don't know.

Any final disposal scenario imagined that would be this effective, would have to include at least a third party.  Either someone who worked at the crematorium or an avid fisherman (sport or commercial) who knew the waters like the back of their hand.  I don't think Paulus did.

JMHO

[Anna]

Anna wrote:

I think Joran alone may have done at least the first temporary disposal. Paulus may have told him no, you were last seen with her, this won't do and dug up the remains for relocation. But what if only those two were involved? That could be why no one has come forth with information, they really don't know.

Any final disposal scenario imagined that would be this effective, would have to include at least a third party.  Either someone who worked at the crematorium or an avid fisherman (sport or commercial) who knew the waters like the back of their hand.  I don't think Paulus did.

JMHO

Assuming, of course, that she is not in the Sloot cesspool and has been
all this time just as Granny Toad used to say so often?  Only place on the island never searched is the Sloot property.  Just wondering why.

.

[Shell]

Easywriter wrote:

Food for thought....

"The break will come. When? I don't know, but I do know that a secret between three is no secret at all!", Jossy Mansur

Okay Easy--------but which three are we talking about?

I'm thinking the 3 Amigoes.

I think at least 3, and throwing Paulus into the mix. I feel fairly certain it will not be Joran who cracks. Well, he cracked  mentally long ago, but not to crack and tell what really happened.

[Houdini]

Anna wrote:

Assuming, of course, that she is not in the Sloot cesspool and has been
all this time just as Granny Toad used to say so often? Only place on the island never searched is the Sloot property. Just wondering why.

There is THAT!

[Houdini]

Gotta vanish guys.  C-YA!

[Sleuth]

Anna wrote:

I think Joran alone may have done at least the first temporary disposal. Paulus may have told him no, you were last seen with her, this won't do and dug up the remains for relocation. But what if only those two were involved? That could be why no one has come forth with information, they really don't know.

Any final disposal scenario imagined that would be this effective, would have to include at least a third party.  Either someone who worked at the crematorium or an avid fisherman (sport or commercial) who knew the waters like the back of their hand.  I don't think Paulus did.

JMHO

Or an avid watersports person....For example, there are a lot of windsurfers off the area by the fishermen's huts.  In all likelihood they would have knowledge of the currents.  Add access to a boat...

[SunFreak2]

Did anyone else notice on Valentjin's myspace site that he said he has never had a bedtime?  Then on that flicker page, he said he was never home b/c of all the cacca going on there.  He's what, 15 or 16? I wonder if he's moved into Joran's old pad?  I guess "anything goes" in that household, b/c it sure doesn't seem that Mommy & Daddy ever gave these kids any semblance of any other guidelines.