Lively Case Discussion #486 7/3 - 7/4/2006

[oldfart]

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Remember the article Klaas posted recently about not assuming something to be a fact just because it seems logical to you?  Lately
I have been thinking more along the lines of a smaller circle in the know.  How about if only Joran and possibly Paulus were involved in concealing what happened.  What if Joran did it all on his own then went home and
eventually informed Paulus.  In turn Paulus may have eventually informed Anita of what their Sporter did but maybe not.

Why do we assume that this strapping six foot five kid would need any help and his hobby was criminal law and crimes so perhaps he had long ago thought of a plan to have on hand, just for kicks, nothing serious, just a what if kind of question.  Then something bad happened and he had to use it.

I think Joran alone may have done at least the first temporary disposal.  Paulus may have told him no, you were last seen with her, this won't do and dug up the remains for relocation.  But what if only those two were involved?  That could be why no one has come forth with information, they really don't know.

Of course, I reserve the right to completely change my theory at any given moment.  

Very possible, IMO.  The only thing that holds me back is Deepak and Satish going along with the lies.

Ditto  in that I do belive in the  ' KISS ' principal.
Which to me applies here in what happend to Natalee but NOT the resulting actions of the cover-up.



G'nite Monkeys..

SeeeYaByeeee

[Anna]

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I don't know what I think any more but sometimes I think we get too complicated and complex in our thinking.  As time goes along and no one
cracks, talks or tells anything, I wonder if this is not a much smaller
crime than I used to think.  Before the entire economy of the island
would be allowed to go down the drain, if anybody knew anything, looks
as though to me they would blab.

Uh oh!  Fireworks started already.  Think I will check on the dogs that are afraid of them.. . . . . . . . . . . .

[Shell]

Did I understand Art correctly in that the "Gardner" is still on Island and they know where he is ?

Can Jossy verify this?   Can he verify that he ended up sleeping in the house he was headed to that night?

A witness not detained and still available?  Did ALE ever bring charges against Junior (land fill guy) for giving false testimony?

Just wondering

Very good catch, OF!     No, I do not believe charges were filed against Junior the Landfill Witness for lying, were they?  And yet, isn't this the same circumstances as the Carlos the Columbian?  Yes, I heard Art say that Carlos the Gardener is still on the island and is a very credible witness.  Hope someone is protecting him.

Seems if giving false testimony were a crime, that jail would be full just with this case alone. Joran, Paulus, Steve Croes, K2's (although I can't bring to mind their bona fide lies since they have not given interviews)Junior, and that last liar, I forgot his name..and I am sure I forgot some. You get my drift tho. It is apparently ok to lie to the police in Aruba. Or is it, they are selective as another poster stated.

[SunFreak2]

Oldfart wrote:

But if the K's just dropped them OFF why agree to get invoved with anything Oh ya the failed judge influence but with $250,000 they and mom would not have to worry about that .
Jmo

Only how to stay alive to spend it.

Take the money and run!  

[Sleuth]

Speaking of boats, has anyone been able to validate the rumor that Steve Croes is back working on the Tattoo??  I honestly don't remember where I read that rumor (I think someone posted here a few days ago??)

[Kat_Gram]

Anna wrote:

Assuming, of course, that she is not in the Sloot cesspool and has been
all this time just as Granny Toad used to say so often? Only place on the island never searched is the Sloot property. Just wondering why.

There is THAT!

There was plenty of private property that was never searched.
Joran drinks too much and talks too much to be a trustee of the secret of where Natalee is.

[Jacqueline]

Joran's side of the video tape, coming up on Greta....

[Lala'sMom]

Hey monkeys.  Stopping in for a brief moment here, has anyone seen Angie lately?  I miss my Ang.  She is falling down on her job of helping me tuck little Nemo in at night.  

I see we are having an English lesson.  Hall passes anyone?  I always use them when I feel the need to avoid learning.  

[Sleuth]

Thanks Jacquie!

[Jacqueline]

Hey monkeys.  Stopping in for a brief moment here, has anyone seen Angie lately?  I miss my Ang.  She is falling down on her job of helping me tuck little Nemo in at night.  

I see we are having an English lesson.  Hall passes anyone?  I always use them when I feel the need to avoid learning.  

Spoke via email with Angie yesterday.

Is doing fine, just super busy with work...etc...

[Jacqueline]

Thanks Jacquie!

Have no idea if this is old stuff...new stuff.

But it's some kinda stuff.

[klaasend]

Speaking of boats, has anyone been able to validate the rumor that Steve Croes is back working on the Tattoo??  I honestly don't remember where I read that rumor (I think someone posted here a few days ago??)

I think I saw it posted on the front page and I believe the poster was in error.  I haven't read anything about Steve C. being back at the Tattoo.

[2NJSons_Mom]

Lala's, had the same concern and besides work, Angie has also been busy with her daughter's wedding, etc.

She's okay. amd I'm sure happy to know you were looking for her.

[klaasend]

Posted by Melissa on the front page June 30th:

Steve Croes is back working on the Tattoo party boat. Go figure???

Then after that on July 1st she posted this:

Steve Croes currently works on the Tattoo party boat. Marcus Wiggins still owns it. These are facts.

[klaasend]

Angie posted some yesterday.  Said she had to work today and tomorrow.

[SunFreak2]

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Why do we assume that this strapping six foot five kid would need any help and his hobby was criminal law and crimes so perhaps he had long ago thought of a plan to have on hand, just for kicks, nothing serious, just a what if kind of question.  Then something bad happened and he had to use it.

I think Joran alone may have done at least the first temporary disposal.  Paulus may have told him no, you were last seen with her, this won't do and dug up the remains for relocation.  But what if only those two were involved?  That could be why no one has come forth with information, they really don't know.

Remember that Joran is reportedly a sociopath.  He may have started out abusing small animals, then offing them and hiding the evidence.  He's probably been planning something for a long time in that munster head of his.  Whether it was accidental manslaughter or pre-meditated murder, he probably had some plan worked out for disposal, just like Anna said.
   

[Lala'sMom]

Thanks you two for answering me.  I was beginning to worry and I don't have her phone number so I can call and check on her.  Well, if anyone sees her, please tell her I was asking about her.

Now, is Joran in jail yet?  I guess not.  

[Jacqueline]

.


Why do we assume that this strapping six foot five kid would need any help and his hobby was criminal law and crimes so perhaps he had long ago thought of a plan to have on hand, just for kicks, nothing serious, just a what if kind of question.  Then something bad happened and he had to use it.

I think Joran alone may have done at least the first temporary disposal.  Paulus may have told him no, you were last seen with her, this won't do and dug up the remains for relocation.  But what if only those two were involved?  That could be why no one has come forth with information, they really don't know.

Remember that Joran is reportedly a sociopath.  He may have started out abusing small animals, then offing them and hiding the evidence.  He's probably been planning something for a long time in that munster head of his.  Whether it was accidental manslaughter or pre-meditated murder, he probably had some plan worked out for disposal, just like Anna said.
   

For Natalee to disappear with hardly a trace , Joran had expert help in disposal of her.  I believe he got this help thru Paulus.  

There are more people other than the 3, + Paulus who know exactly what happened this night.

[SunFreak2]

I feel fairly certain it will not be Joran who cracks. Well, he cracked  mentally long ago, but not to crack and tell what really happened.

I think Joran will brag about getting away with it to the wrong person sooner or later.

[Easywriter]

Here is where I am with all of this, not that it matters much.

Natalee disappeared at the hands of the three individuals we have been discussing for over a year now.  She was seen leaving with them and the three punks that survived that ride out of the parking lot of Carlos-n-Charlies agree that she was with them.  So, that portion of the story has been confirmed by many, including the primary suspects.

Next we have the fact that Natalee was never seen again after she left C-n-C’s with the three primary suspects.  Again that is a known fact and only disputed by a few characters that couldn’t recognize their own faces on any given day.

Those particulars  leave us in a perpetual loop trying to determine exactly what happened to Natalee during a very limited amount of time and that is where the story begins to befuddle the mind.  We can travel down any road the imagination provides, but we can not answer what happened during those hours without confirmation from someone that was there.  Each of us can toss the puzzle upon the kitchen table a million times and try to re-create the event a million more times, but we can’t do it.  That piece of the puzzle is in someone’s pocket that we can’t reach and we will forever be inhibited by that concealment until conscience, or an act of God intervenes.

What we can investigate, discover and disclose is the cover-up that took place after Natalee’s disappearance.  It is all there in front of us and it is the key to solving this mystery.

Stop speculating about Natalee’s last hours.  We know what happened and who was responsible.  The facts tell us so and our gut feelings affirm that idea.  Start asking who had the ability to drive this investigation and why that person felt it so important to go to great lengths to make that happen.  Answer that question and all the other pieces of the puzzle will start to fall together.

Always remember the Watergate scandal was a relatively simple crime that would have had minor consequences.  However, the cover-up toppled a president and all his “good” men.

The same thing will eventually break Aruba’s back, if we persist and the spoils of the conflict will be answers about Natalee.