Lively Case Discussion #486 7/3 - 7/4/2006

[Kat_Gram]

Kat, I am sorry I do realize that you are Canadian...    so I guess for you it's not the same....LOL

Well, we do our thing July 1. We have troops serving in the Middle East.
Didn't go to the big celebration a the park on Saturday, took a pass.
There is a military base close to where I live. And we have Viet Vets ( Canadians ) here.
One thing I notice on Canada Day is the immigrant families. They appreciate the freedoms in our countries.
We take things for granted here.
At my work, we have a few recent ... ten years or less refugeees or
immigrants from the Balkans, China and Romania. They can tell us stories that make you want to kiss the ground you are standing on.
These are educated people who fled those countries.

[sb]

Remember the picture of Freddy eating at the VDS table....

ONE UNHAPPY FAMILY

[Tylergal]

Well, I am totally jealous of Mrs. Red & Red having lobster, my favorite food.  I will be home tomorrow.  Kids and DH all went to the Club for dinner and fireworks tonight, and I could not go.  

I shall not complain.  My temperature is less than that of Iraq's and I have no one shooting at me, but I did come upon a snake in the shop today, all stretched out on the potting bench and did not see him until I reached to get my secuters.  I gently moved my whole self away and got DH to commit murder.  He was trying to get into my chicken pellets.

[sb]

tyler, I would NEVER block your messages.

That's got me concerned because we never know when someone may be messing around with our e-mail and Inboxes. We have had this happen before... and there was funny business going on.

[Tylergal]

tyler, I would NEVER block your messages.

That's got me concerned because we never know when someone may be messing around with our e-mail and Inboxes. We have had this happen before... and there was funny business going on.

That is right.  You remember my e-mail was dinked with at one time and Lala's and I were not getting each other's mail.  

I will get #1 son to look at computer tomorrow from afar.

[klaasend]

This was posted by Tazman in the front page area - I found it interresting:

Tazman Says:

July 2nd, 2006 at 3:01 pm
Joran stated that “it” happened 20 times before with no problems, then what if the following had become the habit for him and his friends?

Since the criminals in the sex trade are looking for beautiful young American “blonde” girls, what better place than an island like Aruba where high school graduates go to celebrate for the kidnapping to occur? It seems that they would need good looking young white guys (appearing to be Europeans), to separate them from the group that they are with by acting like they can be trusted by saying they are also “students” staying at the same hotel, and then quickly getting away with them on their last night on the island. If the people involved in the sex trade themselves tried to lure young girls away, the friends of the young girls would be more “alarmed” that there was a kidnapping going down and would have interferred. They would most likely be older and/or seedier looking than the young teenage guys. Joran appeared to Natalee and her friends to be just another “teenage” tourist getting into what appeared to be a “taxi” with Natalee to go back to the hotel they were (allegedly) both staying at with other “teenage” tourists.

I believe that Natalee was drugged and lured away by Joran and the Kalpoes not only for them to sexually attack her, but also for them to hand her over to others. Their “pimp” gang must also be doing this by rotating clubs and guys. Thereby they all cover each other’s ass. Paulos must be involved as a leader to help in transporting the girls off the island. He came back from Holland just in time to participate. He could have some seedy cliends that are willing to do anything for him or vice versa.

Maybe the reason Joran is allowed to gamble and drink in the casinos is to pick up girls for the sole reason of kidnapping. And, the video of Paulos, Joran and girls at the casino could have been the selection process by Paulos of Natalee for Joran to follow through on the kidnapping. Remember Joran indicated he was interested in Natalee’s friend? Well, he must have been told to pick up on Natalee instead. Smaller more petite girl would be easier to physically force and transport. Paulos likes short women (Anita).

[SunFreak2]

Little Chyna Doll is resting comfortably, bless her heart.  I'm down about a half grand $, but she's worth every penny.

I'm going to go try to finish my WWII book by Scott Turow, called Ordinary Heroes.  Thought provoking.

G'nite, Monkeys!  

[sb]

I have always thought that taz-man was one one of our more knowledgeable posters.. wondered what happened to him?

We lost a TON of good talent in the 2nd big crash. Some people never did get back after that.  

[Anna]

.
Klaas,
I can believe that group capable of doing such things but there are no
large numbers of girls reported missing.  Their families would be all upset and making all kinds of waves and probably uniting to find out what was happening.  As far as I know, only females to go missing in Aruba are Natalee and Amy Bradley.  Now we know the Dept of Justice considers Aruba bad for human traffic but think mostly from South America to Europe.  That likely requires personal supervision for transporting, etc. so this does not really seem likely to me to be happening.  Not that I think any of that group above it, JMO.

[klaasend]

I have always thought that taz-man was one one of our more knowledgeable posters.. wondered what happened to him?

We lost a TON of good talent in the 2nd big crash. Some people never did get back after that.  

He posts on the front page, don't know why he's not in the forum.  I'm sure if he asked he could get back in.

[klaasend]

.
Klaas,
I can believe that group capable of doing such things but there are no
large numbers of girls reported missing.  Their families would be all upset and making all kinds of waves and probably uniting to find out what was happening.  As far as I know, only females to go missing in Aruba are Natalee and Amy Bradley.  Now we know the Dept of Justice considers Aruba bad for human traffic but think mostly from South America to Europe.  That likely requires personal supervision for transporting, etc. so this does not really seem likely to me to be happening.  Not that I think any of that group above it, JMO.

Anna - I agree there are no large numbers of girls missing.  But the theory of Joran being allowed to gamble for the purpose of picking up locals to "share" with Paulus and others is a possibility, IMO.

[Anna]

Yep, just take them for the night and return them by morning dazed and confused.  Well, he practically told us that saying they had done it twenty times before and Deepak told Jamie Skeeters sort of the same thing.  

Should be considered attempted murder on each of the counts of twenty because of the danger it puts the victim in from the drugs and lack of any training, etc.  Could have easily killed all of them not knowing what they are doing like that.  It is tricky to render a human being unconscious and they are not qualified in any way not to mention not having permission.  Charge them with attempted murder and every other creep who uses date rape drugs, too.  
 
.

[sb]

You have to wonder what the difference is between the "Bailey Ann" incident and Natalee.

We have PHOTOGRAPHIC evidence that Joran and the rest have done things like this before. But Bailey Ann is alive in the US and I don't think we even know conclusively that she was sexually assaulted. For all we know she may have gone along willingly.

What's the difference? The FIGHT that Natalee put up? Or other factors, like involvement of other seedier elements or people, or a different intended destination for the victim.

[Anna]

.
Going to prowl around on the Front Page a little bit then hit the Monkey Bunkey.  This heat is really hard on me for some reasosn this year.  More than any year I can remember.  

Sleep well and have a wonderful Fourth of July.  We have much for which to be thankful and top on my list is that we have our judicial system and the freedoms we  enjoy thanks to the sacrifices made by our military and intelligence community.  We have some kooky judges and a few stray and off track rulings but by and large it has to be the best system in the world.  I am shocked at how shoddy the judicial system of other countries actually is.

Goodnight!

[klaasend]

You have to wonder what the difference is between the "Bailey Ann" incident and Natalee.

We have PHOTOGRAPHIC evidence that Joran and the rest have done things like this before. But Bailey Ann is alive in the US and I don't think we even know conclusively that she was sexually assaulted. For all we know she may have gone along willingly.

What's the difference? The FIGHT that Natalee put up? Or other factors, like involvement of other seedier elements or people, or a different intended destination for the victim.

Exactly - I don't think Bailey Ann put up a fight  

[klaasend]

Good nite Anna - I'll be around a bit tomorrow, see you then.

[sb]

klaasend, I want to be careful not to presume about Bailey Ann's thoughts or motives because she is innocent of any crimes and she truly isn't related to this case. Of all the people that have been named in regards to all this, she would have better grounds to get offended or look for legal recourse if she was spoken against, than anyone else.

I have wondered if she follows the case at all, or if she reads here. I tend to doubt it, because one would think she would be talking to someone "official" about her experience if she thought it would shed light on what happened. We have no sense that she has done that... at least as far as we know.

We have no idea if she would support Beth and the family, or not.

[sb]

I guess everyone is winding down, so I will too. I ckeep coming in when everyone is tired and ready to sign off!

Y'all have a safe and happy 4th and let's check in when we can!

[klaasend]

klaasend, I want to be careful not to presume about Bailey Ann's thoughts or motives because she is innocent of any crimes and she truly isn't related to this case. Of all the people that have been named in regards to all this, she would have better grounds to get offended or look for legal recourse if she was spoken against, than anyone else.

I have wondered if she follows the case at all, or if she reads here. I tend to doubt it, because one would think she would be talking to someone "official" about her experience if she thought it would shed light on what happened. We have no sense that she has done that... at least as far as we know.

We have no idea if she would support Beth and the family, or not.

SB - very true.  We cannot presume anything about Bailey Ann.  I do hope that the proper authorities have contacted her though as she may be able to shed some light into Joran, Deepak and Freddy's normal mode.

Goodnite all.

[nonesuche]

Klaas-

I have to post I surely am sorry my O/T exchange with Peaches became ammunition this afternoon   golly, never would have wanted that to happen!!

I would not wish to slander Bailey Ann either but I do think one thing was different here, for I don't think most of these girls were being surveyed by Paulus - and I do still believe that was him in the casino next to Natalee.

We also can't forget how few young women are chaste at that age, that may have created the entire scenario of harm having come to her, for she did fight back? That one fact could have likely increased their interest in her, while also placing her at greater risk due to resisting them.

I found Art Wood's commentary on the police van transcript with the thee perps about hitting the girl with the car pretty chilling. I can see that happening if a victim starts running and you fear you can't catch her on foot? Or worse, you are so angered you lose all control?

night all !!