CBS and the Columbine Dad

[mrs. red]

Did anyone hear the father of the boy that was killed during Columbine - his name is Brian Rohrbough.  He basically stated that our country is in a freefall of moral values on CBS news.  Katie Couric said on her blog that she felt that some people might find his views repugnant.

I was impressed with his speech and I do believe that since we have made the world all "pc" and took God out of schools that it seems things have gotten worse.

Mr. Rohrbough went on BOR and said that the two kids who killed all those kids in Columbine were on film stating that they were only helping evolution...

Mr. Rohrbough went on to say that (which was actually a theory I had earlier) that kids are being taught by hearing that abortion is fine, and that euthensia is being touted as fine that we are sending the message to kids that life truly means nothing.

Thoughts?

[Carnut]

My thoughts are that it ain't happening.

I really think these kinds of events/sickos have always been around and the media is just bringing them to the attention of us folks who are really into the news.

Just like we don't hear everyday how many people are killed in car wrecks because it isn't sensational enough, though we do see them sometimes on local news.

If anything there may be a problem in societies way of raising kids and teaching 'right and wrong' to folks.

It does seem that the majority of folks now a days only think about 'what they can get away with' with any excuse.

[LouiseVargas]

Hi Mrs. Red and Carnut,

I heard the very well spoken Mr. Rohrbough (Columbine father) on BOR saying something like - the reason for kids shooting up schools is because kids are being taught that abortion is fine, and that euthanasia is being touted as fine and we are sending the message to kids that life truly means nothing.

He believes Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold shot up Columbine because of abortion and euthanasia.   Even Bill squirmed and didn't allow him on the air for long.

Check this link please, to find out why they did it.
http://www.slate.com/id/2099203/

Regarding why kids shoot up a school, there's a much stronger arguement for parents' inattention than there is for abortion and euthanasia being the cause.

[mrs. red]

LV,
He actually had a lot more to say than that.... and he was telling the audience that the sherriff's dept. in CO had a tape where the two kids were saying on tape that they believed in the strong killing the weak, that it was just part of evolution.  He wanted more people to see the tape, however the CO police department refuses to release that tape.

His point was broader than that however - and he said a lot more...I was just wondering what people thought of the other parts of his speech... not just the anti-abortion piece...

I do wonder if kids are being told that life isn't sacred in many ways... not just abortion, but the video games they are exposed to etc.  One cannot say that the video industry is pushing decent values, they are extremely violent games... and look at the songs today.

They go beyond what I was hearing at 16... Aerosmith and disco weren't even remotely as violent...

[Carnut]

Yes, I saw everything the guy said and it just seemed to be the standard extreme conservative view.

Trying to blame everything that he dosen't agree with as the cause of what happened.

Sorry, I just don't agree that our society is causing youngsters to look at life as any less sacred than it ever did because of abortions and teaching evolution.

Actually my theory is to blame it all on the hippies and the flower culture of 'if it feels good do it' or 'don't trust anyone over 30' or question all authority and do your own thing. Do drugs and achieve a higher consciousness..blah blah.

I think those folks have raised a generation or two now with no respect for traditions or authority or the rules of society.

[mrs. red]

Yes, I saw everything the guy said and it just seemed to be the standard extreme conservative view.

Trying to blame everything that he dosen't agree with as the cause of what happened.

Sorry, I just don't agree that our society is causing youngsters to look at life as any less sacred than it ever did because of abortions and teaching evolution.

Actually my theory is to blame it all on the hippies and the flower culture of 'if it feels good do it' or 'don't trust anyone over 30' or question all authority and do your own thing. Do drugs and achieve a higher consciousness..blah blah.

I think those folks have raised a generation or two now with no respect for traditions or authority or the rules of society.

See, I also heard him say that he felt a bigger portion of the blame was also what I bolded that you said above...

I just wonder if there is a correlation between the whole abortion thing and desenstizing kids... I mean one of the leading women's magazines is now running an article with everyone on their staff that has had an abortion.... and "feels ok about it"..... y'all are probably right, but I do think that the whole argument has broader implications than we ever thougth... but that's just my HO.

[Carnut]

Yeah, I can see you are trying to zero in on abortion as the blame.

I kinda think he was actually zeroing in on teaching evolution as the blame with abortion as a support issue.

The tape he is talking about supposedly showed the guys talking about 'survival of the fittest' and blames that on evolutionary theory and why the guys did their thing.

Fraid I don't buy either theory, heck, I think the guys were right about survival of the fittest, kinda why they ain't here anymore.

[mrs. red]

Yeah, I can see you are trying to zero in on abortion as the blame.

I kinda think he was actually zeroing in on teaching evolution as the blame with abortion as a support issue.

The tape he is talking about supposedly showed the guys talking about 'survival of the fittest' and blames that on evolutionary theory and why the guys did their thing.

Fraid I don't buy either theory, heck, I think the guys were right about survival of the fittest, kinda why they ain't here anymore.

Oh Car, I didn't mean to sound like I thought abortion was to blame.... I just found that interesting and it does make me wonder about what messages we send to kids.  

Actually, I got completely off track with the entire post... what I really wanted to discuss was Katie's blog statement...

[Carnut]

Well, as Katie said I do find his views repungnant.

Again if it weren't for all the hoopla about the abortion debate in the news I doubt if any kids would even be aware of it.

I know the subject never entered my radar screen until I was in high school, maybe I just had a sheltered upbringing. Think that was about the same time I became aware of homosexuality and the word gay never showed up until I was watching movies/tv after getting out of the army.

[mrs. red]

Well, as Katie said I do find his views repungnant.

Again if it weren't for all the hoopla about the abortion debate in the news I doubt if any kids would even be aware of it.

I know the subject never entered my radar screen until I was in high school, maybe I just had a sheltered upbringing. Think that was about the same time I became aware of homosexuality and the word gay never showed up until I was watching movies/tv after getting out of the army.

but my point is Car that it's such a different world... we didn't have videos nearly as violent as what they have now... heck, we didn't even have MTV....

[Carnut]

Well, as Katie said I do find his views repungnant.

Again if it weren't for all the hoopla about the abortion debate in the news I doubt if any kids would even be aware of it.

I know the subject never entered my radar screen until I was in high school, maybe I just had a sheltered upbringing. Think that was about the same time I became aware of homosexuality and the word gay never showed up until I was watching movies/tv after getting out of the army.

but my point is Car that it's such a different world... we didn't have videos nearly as violent as what they have now... heck, we didn't even have MTV....

Yeah, a world moving fast where the parents need to take 'more' responsiblity for their kids, not less.

[LouiseVargas]

This is a very interesting discussion we are having. Both of you make good points.

Yes, Mrs. Red, it was a different world then. You are most likely near to my daughter's age group. In her senior year of high school, she told me this was the last year before all hell broke loose in schools and teachers would lose control. The next year there was a school shooting at her school, Fairfax HS in Los Angeles, but no one was killed.

I have the same viewpoint as Car does that the lives of teenage boys are not all that concerned with abortion. Currently, I betcha most teenage boys and girls carry condoms so as to avoid AIDs and pregnancy in the first place. They simply are not old and mature enough to debate the religious/philosophical points of abortion.

I'm afraid I'm guilty of one part of Carnut's quote: "Actually my theory is to blame it all on the hippies and the flower culture of 'if it feels good do it' or 'don't trust anyone over 30' or question all authority and do your own thing. Do drugs and achieve a higher consciousness..blah blah."

I was a couple of years older than the typical hippie (and at work they thought I was a REAL hippie) so I never would have gone to Woodstock or traveled the country like hobos. Plus I was anchored to the earth by my baby daughter. But I did embrace some hippie ideals such as "question authority." And that has come back to bite me hard. I told her she had to obey the police and laws of the land ... but she is not obligated to automatically follow anyone else's opinion if she doesn't agree. I gave examples of how to weigh the points. The most important thing on my agenda was to teach her to be independent and think for herself. As soon as she was aware, I asked her opinion on stuff like 'do you like red better than green' and 'what do you think about this TV show.' My mistake but when we plant the seeds, we hope for a good harvest. There was some type of disconnect that I missed.

The bottom line again from Carnut: "Yeah, a world moving fast where the parents need to take 'more' responsiblity for their kids, not less." That's the "one true way."

One can see the messages we send to kids by watching TV ads, magazines, listening to music, observing how they dress, seeing movies ... and the best way of all is to sit in a mall and watch what teenagers are doing, trying to hear what they are saying to each other, etc. I imagine there is a great difference between Los Angeles and smaller cities. But by the time our kids are teenagers, it's a bit late to try to take more responsibility. That can only be done in the formative years.

[Carnut]

Hey Louise,

would you believe I've always considered the flower power generation to be our 'Maoist Cultural Revolution' and almost as bad.

[LouiseVargas]

Nice response, Carnut. Very sensitive and generous of you to say that to me after I've said I made a mistake that had catastrophic results but I had good intentions.

[Carnut]

Nice response, Carnut. Very sensitive and generous of you to say that to me after I've said I made a mistake that had catastrophic results but I had good intentions.

I'm sorry Louise, no one has ever accused me of being sensitive.

[mrs. red]

No Carnut, I wouldn't accuse you of being sensitive....  

LV,
I think that the world is a much smaller place now  - I have been to LA and lived in Atlanta, Boston, and smaller areas as well.  Kids have the same issues and stresses in Atlanta that they do in LA... including the whole gangsta thing...

I do know several young men who are very aware of the abortion issue, they are vehemetly opposed.  They feel that they should be part of the decision because they have a hand in the baby's life, so to speak.  I am speaking of young "men" I know that are between 25-17.  Perhaps it is the teaching of their mothers?   Believe it or not, there was a study just done from UCLA where entering freshman men and women were not in favor of abortion. A lot of young girls as early at 12 and 13 - Jr. High age are having oral sex because they don't think it is really sex.... so in one respect you are correct that they aren't old or mature enough to "get it" but the problem I see is that the babies are starting and by the time they are 16 of 17 they have matured in ways that we never dreamt of...

my generation is the rock and hard place generation... although by year I fit into the "boomer category" I by mindset have more of a "gen x" menatlity... I think the last few years of boomer and the earliest gen xers are more "my generation"... we see the world in a very different way I think... we have the older sibliings that did go to Woodstock, etc. and we are the first generation that really dealt with divorces... I think it colors the way we have raised our kids - I know my friends and family don't have the theory of standing by and not overseeing what their kids do... MTV is not allowed in any one's house, which movies the kids are allowed to watch is closely guarded as are the friends who the kids spend time with on and on...

however, no matter how hard one tries the message that society and marketing sends to kids is not a positive or a good one.  They exalt Paris Hilton, who even the most sheltered kid knows - they do go to school where kids do influence each other... the video games are violent for the most part and Grand Theft Auto not only has the steal the car component, it has a part that is how many hookers can you rape, then rob  and ultimately kill.... oh that's a message for kids... and I include college age kids here.. in some ways kids are so much more mature and yet so much younger than previous generations....

look at the plethora of drugs available... that are now "designer" drugs... we have in addition to what there was the abuse of legal narotics.. I mean kids as young as 20 abuse Viagra.....

It's all well and good to say that parents have to watch every move and be vigilent and I agree but there are times when it's not possible unless you are going to homeschool your kids, turn t.v. off completely, and put them in a vaccum...

and then there is the parents that do all of that and they have kids that can't function..... there is a huge gap in who is employable these days... women my age have become a desired commodity because we "are the last generation that knows how to work"... that quote is from the VP of one of the top Fortune 500 companies....

and what are kids seeing from there... ENRON etc.? it's ok to lie cheat and steal as long as you dont' get caught?  they expect to come out of college and have the corner office paying mid to high 6 figures... they no longer understand the concept of working your way up....

I don't know, but I do know that a lot of this  does have to do with what we are hammering into kid's heads... it's not good and we are losing the most precious thing we have...

[nonesuche]

Mrs Red-

I have to vote with you on this issue, I agree that the boomers <I am a tail-end boomer> did a better job of spending dollars on our offspring collectively than giving them our time and attention - and I think a multitude of other factors excaberbated that. Like you, I cannot abide the violence in the video games and for those not aware of it - those games became babysitting for many kids at a very early age. Grand Theft Auto is enough to put women's rights back 50 years alone, if every teen that played that game internalized it's messages. MTV has seized on many low-morality trends and made those into TV shows, shows that our kids watch and might even think or believe that is respectable?

As for abortion, the fear of being in that situation kept me from having sex, now if STD's and the threat of AIDS does not <and I don't think either influence kids now as they did in the past>, then kids have rocks in their heads for having unprotected sex. Still many of them do and we glorify so much now, as if Paris and her sex tape was something to admire? I must be in the minority here.

GenXer's were also the first generation to watch large mainstay sustainable companies cut loose aging workers after 20+ years of service, cutting workforce is now the standard way many C-level execs meet their numbers for big bonus options. We remain in an economy currently that is an employer's market, yet employers complain workers worry more about themselves than their corporation?

I would also argue that some of Bush's policies and decisions have increased the great divide immensely, between the rich and the poor in this country. I also think there are other areas like national security which needed Bush. I vote as an independent now, it dilutes my former party which I regret, but I also think the lines are so blurred now between our remaining two parties - it's a wash sadly IMO.

Our youth <at least the ones I just spent last weekend with>, have a much more laisez faire approach to our world and to expecting we adults in charge choosing to do the right thing.

I have to say I do think we've let them down and unless we make changes, I think apathy may well rule quite soon.

[Carnut]

Yeah, I think history has shown that 'Apathy' has contributed to the ruin of many great empires in the past.

[nonesuche]

Yeah, I think history has shown that 'Apathy' has contributed to the ruin of many great empires in the past.

car-

I suspicion you is picking on me  

[Carnut]

Nope, I really do think the downfall of many empires has been the apathy of the haves/middle/ruling class and them not wanting to confront the hard choices necessary in real life.