Natalee Case Discussion #774 11/14/08 thru 11/16/08

[Magnolia]

FWIW

Aired June 5, 2005 - 18:00   ET
<snipped>

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): It certainly does look like a major break, Carol. These are the first two arrests that have been made in the case.

These two suspects were pulled in at around 7:00 a.m. local time in raids on two homes on the eastern edge of the island. Police are describing the two men as aged 28 and 30. Both of them, police say, were security guards at the hotel near the Holiday Inn -- that's the hotel where Natalee Holloway was staying.

The frustrating part, though, Carol, is that so far, still no sign of Natalee Holloway's whereabouts. In the raids on the two homes, three cars were seized, bags full of possessions were also seized from those homes. But in an afternoon press conference Aruba's general prosecutor has said that nothing belonging to Natalee, no item or clothing, no other possession of hers has been found in any of those the raids.

The good news is, though, that these two arrestees will still be detained for at least another 48 hours. They are undergoing interrogation as we speak to see what more information police and investigators can glean from them.

In the course of the afternoon as well, I'm not sure whether this was linked directly but Dutch marines were combing a wind-swept eastern beach in Aruba looking for signs of Natalee's whereabouts. They turned up a mattress stained with blood. There was speculation that this could be linked to the case for a short while, but FBI agents that carried out tests on that blood and ruled it out of the investigation. They say that blood was, in fact dog blood, not human blood at all.
http://www.studentnews.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0506/05/sun.04.html




Monday, June 6, 2005
<snipped>

At a Sunday news conference, van Strantan said police and the FBI determined that bloodstains on a mattress found earlier Sunday were from a dog.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/06/05/missing.teen/index.html

I thinkit was later determined that the FBI did not do those test on the mattress.
It was discussed that ALE did that and did not even use luminol.

[Lala'sMom]

Lala's - did Jossy hire EcoTech?

I have no idea.  I thought John Silvetti was going to do the draining...so maybe it's true that he and John hired them.  So where is the stuff drained from the pond and why did no one know about it when it happened?  Even Julia found it already drained. 

[MumInOhio]

Magnolia...OT at the moment, but a while back, before I joined SM there were extensive discussions about the blood on the mattress.

It was determined with much research that ALE could not have distinguished between Human and dog blood without testing.

They could not have known when they found the mattress that it was dog's blood.

Do you recall any of these discussions?  TIA

What I recall is that they never tested the blood at all.  They just
saw the dead dog nearby and assumed.

Isn't there a statement somewhere in S?S that we need to learn why he put the dead dogs there?  Were the dead dogs or dog put there as a distraction for why the blood was really on the mattress?

I think that was referring to the dead dogs in the Moko pond,
but your theory could be correct.

I recall posts about the mattress possibly coming from the HI...white truck seen at the HI.

Also recall posts about a room being totally renovated at the HI.

Mattress found later in the day of June 5th, the day the SGs were arrested.

Recalling Hammer's American Pie post from the other day...MJ?

[MumInOhio]

FWIW

Aired June 5, 2005 - 18:00   ET
<snipped>

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): It certainly does look like a major break, Carol. These are the first two arrests that have been made in the case.

These two suspects were pulled in at around 7:00 a.m. local time in raids on two homes on the eastern edge of the island. Police are describing the two men as aged 28 and 30. Both of them, police say, were security guards at the hotel near the Holiday Inn -- that's the hotel where Natalee Holloway was staying.

The frustrating part, though, Carol, is that so far, still no sign of Natalee Holloway's whereabouts. In the raids on the two homes, three cars were seized, bags full of possessions were also seized from those homes. But in an afternoon press conference Aruba's general prosecutor has said that nothing belonging to Natalee, no item or clothing, no other possession of hers has been found in any of those the raids.

The good news is, though, that these two arrestees will still be detained for at least another 48 hours. They are undergoing interrogation as we speak to see what more information police and investigators can glean from them.

In the course of the afternoon as well, I'm not sure whether this was linked directly but Dutch marines were combing a wind-swept eastern beach in Aruba looking for signs of Natalee's whereabouts. They turned up a mattress stained with blood. There was speculation that this could be linked to the case for a short while, but FBI agents that carried out tests on that blood and ruled it out of the investigation. They say that blood was, in fact dog blood, not human blood at all.
http://www.studentnews.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0506/05/sun.04.html




Monday, June 6, 2005
<snipped>

At a Sunday news conference, van Strantan said police and the FBI determined that bloodstains on a mattress found earlier Sunday were from a dog.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/06/05/missing.teen/index.html

Thanks vms...

[MumInOhio]

Actually, I don't have dates for those pics.  I can only say that I know I received them not more than 3 days after Julia reported the pond as being dry.  Caps would have to answer that question.  I uploaded them to my computer but I have no idea how to find out what that date was...you know how dumb I am on that kind of thing. 

The pond would have been drained within a week of the strike ending.  I know Caps was waiting for it to be drained and then all of a sudden the pond is dry.  Maybe Caps can clear up that timeline for us.

Mum, I think maybe there was a period of time between when the pond was actually drained and when we saw the pictures.  Rob discovered all of them on a website, but once that was found the photographs there disappeared.

Wish Rob would pop in with the pic of the outline of a body in the empty pond!

[MumInOhio]

FWIW

Aired June 5, 2005 - 18:00   ET
<snipped>

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): It certainly does look like a major break, Carol. These are the first two arrests that have been made in the case.

These two suspects were pulled in at around 7:00 a.m. local time in raids on two homes on the eastern edge of the island. Police are describing the two men as aged 28 and 30. Both of them, police say, were security guards at the hotel near the Holiday Inn -- that's the hotel where Natalee Holloway was staying.

The frustrating part, though, Carol, is that so far, still no sign of Natalee Holloway's whereabouts. In the raids on the two homes, three cars were seized, bags full of possessions were also seized from those homes. But in an afternoon press conference Aruba's general prosecutor has said that nothing belonging to Natalee, no item or clothing, no other possession of hers has been found in any of those the raids.

The good news is, though, that these two arrestees will still be detained for at least another 48 hours. They are undergoing interrogation as we speak to see what more information police and investigators can glean from them.

In the course of the afternoon as well, I'm not sure whether this was linked directly but Dutch marines were combing a wind-swept eastern beach in Aruba looking for signs of Natalee's whereabouts. They turned up a mattress stained with blood. There was speculation that this could be linked to the case for a short while, but FBI agents that carried out tests on that blood and ruled it out of the investigation. They say that blood was, in fact dog blood, not human blood at all.
http://www.studentnews.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0506/05/sun.04.html




Monday, June 6, 2005
<snipped>

At a Sunday news conference, van Strantan said police and the FBI determined that bloodstains on a mattress found earlier Sunday were from a dog.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/06/05/missing.teen/index.html

I thinkit was later determined that the FBI did not do those test on the mattress.
It was discussed that ALE did that and did not even use luminol.

 

[SS]

none of it.

Well, in general I tend to be critical too, but I'm not totally sceptical Even the police has stated that these guys have (drug-)raped girls before. And these days it's very easy to make a 'pornvid' on your cellphone. So some of the story could very well be true. But on the other hand it's well known that a chain of 'hear-say' often let's the facts grow bigger and bigger... So the question than of course is how far or deep did this go?

EURobert - we are pretty certain about the porn video involvement.  The US connection was Mr. Pink in Florida, who Johan posted the information about yesterday.  Urine and his friends were into watching porn videos and making them.  Freddy has been identified as the cameraman and he was actually arrested at one point for taping young girls.  We were given information that JR was involved with the equipment because she owns/owned a photography business and does the photography for an Aruban newspaper.  She has also been identified as a madame and we have seen photographs of Urine and his male and female friends at a location known for prostitution.  One of these girls is reportedly still an escort.  The porn information appears to be very accurate.

[Magnolia]

Magnolia...OT at the moment, but a while back, before I joined SM there were extensive discussions about the blood on the mattress.

It was determined with much research that ALE could not have distinguished between Human and dog blood without testing.

They could not have known when they found the mattress that it was dog's blood.

Do you recall any of these discussions?  TIA

What I recall is that they never tested the blood at all.  They just
saw the dead dog nearby and assumed.

It was Aruba Girl that told the story about Joran killing his own dog
and throwing it in the Moko Pond.  I think he killed it with a paint ball gun.



Isn't there a statement somewhere in S?S that we need to learn why he put the dead dogs there?  Were the dead dogs or dog put there as a distraction for why the blood was really on the mattress?

I think that was referring to the dead dogs in the Moko pond,
but your theory could be correct.

I recall posts about the mattress possibly coming from the HI...white truck seen at the HI.

Also recall posts about a room being totally renovated at the HI.

Mattress found later in the day of June 5th, the day the SGs were arrested.

Recalling Hammer's American Pie post from the other day...MJ?

It was Aruba Girl that told the story about Joran killing his own dog
and throwing it in the Moko Pond.  I think he killed it with a paint ball gun.

[EURobert]

I suppose we should be in Shango talking about this, but don't tell Klaas and she will never know.


Shango says they never took Natalee to the beach.  That is beginning to look more plausible with each new clue.

Shango says that Joran was a scapegoat.  That may ultimately prove to be correct given Paulus' involvement.

Shango says there is some kind of underground maze type situation that we can't figure out. It appears that could be true, given the other people that have told us about the Matty apts and the Lion Den and the now knowing about Joran and his proclivities to engage innocent women into sex slavery.

So there is a little truth in each of the cryptic posters messages.  Just because it does not make sense to one of us does not mean another of us won't see it for what it is. 

I was watching a television show last night that made me think of dirty hand...there was this madam in it that held all the keys to all the doors at her brothel and she chose who to let in and who to exclude.  I thought...dirty hand...walks among them, but not to satiate desire.  I really need a vacation.

I don't think Klaas will mind as long as we stick to a few summaries of the Shango-thread...

[Edward]

none of it.

Well, in general I tend to be critical too, but I'm not totally sceptical Even the police has stated that these guys have (drug-)raped girls before. And these days it's very easy to make a 'pornvid' on your cellphone. So some of the story could very well be true. But on the other hand it's well known that a chain of 'hear-say' often let's the facts grow bigger and bigger... So the question than of course is how far or deep did this go?

It is a tale of every community small and large around the world. There are always the elite and there bad habits.
It is a generalization. It is not a specific accusation against any one person and is not a location of a body.
It had an intent. To derail people minds and it is a professional placed piece of "Propaganda".
We worked this Shango thing over, line by line from the beginning of the Shango religion in Nigeria to the island of Aruba and we looked down every yellow brick road ............... It is Bull Carp.
mo.

The reason we have not solved anything is the tremendous amount of disinformation people are willing to Focus on.
But you are more then welcome to follow that road all over again..
jmho

[SS]

Lala's - did Jossy hire EcoTech?

I have no idea.  I thought John Silvetti was going to do the draining...so maybe it's true that he and John hired them.  So where is the stuff drained from the pond and why did no one know about it when it happened?  Even Julia found it already drained. 

Why am I not surprised?

[MumInOhio]

Lala's - did Jossy hire EcoTech?

I have no idea.  I thought John Silvetti was going to do the draining...so maybe it's true that he and John hired them.  So where is the stuff drained from the pond and why did no one know about it when it happened?  Even Julia found it already drained. 

It was done at night...the lights for the soccer field were on, remember.

The stuff was shipped to SA in a container, or most of it was?

[Lala'sMom]

If you recovered Natalee's body in the pond...why would you keep it a secret and let this entire case fall by the wayside?  What purpose?  To have that knowledge and not use it to resolve this case is utterly stupid given the current economic situation of the tourist trade in Aruba.   Just think what kind of good press a discovery of Natalee's body and a resulting conviction could bring to Aruba. 

[Helen Back]

Actually, I don't have dates for those pics.  I can only say that I know I received them not more than 3 days after Julia reported the pond as being dry.  Caps would have to answer that question.  I uploaded them to my computer but I have no idea how to find out what that date was...you know how dumb I am on that kind of thing. 

The pond would have been drained within a week of the strike ending.  I know Caps was waiting for it to be drained and then all of a sudden the pond is dry.  Maybe Caps can clear up that timeline for us.

Mum, I think maybe there was a period of time between when the pond was actually drained and when we saw the pictures.  Rob discovered all of them on a website, but once that was found the photographs there disappeared.

Wish Rob would pop in with the pic of the outline of a body in the empty pond!

That has stuck with me.  All we saw was an apparent excavation site of the mud in the drained pond (in the shape of a body) with a bucket nearby.

But if you were going to surreptitiously remove material from a pond, would you leave such an obvious trail of removal?  Why leave a bucket?  Why leave that shape?  Why not create other sites of disturbance?

[Lala'sMom]

Edward
So what happened?  The pond is not a Shango thing at all.  That has nothing at all to do with anything Shango related.  I can make it, if you want, because I can make anything fit Shango.

[Lala'sMom]

Actually, I don't have dates for those pics.  I can only say that I know I received them not more than 3 days after Julia reported the pond as being dry.  Caps would have to answer that question.  I uploaded them to my computer but I have no idea how to find out what that date was...you know how dumb I am on that kind of thing. 

The pond would have been drained within a week of the strike ending.  I know Caps was waiting for it to be drained and then all of a sudden the pond is dry.  Maybe Caps can clear up that timeline for us.

Mum, I think maybe there was a period of time between when the pond was actually drained and when we saw the pictures.  Rob discovered all of them on a website, but once that was found the photographs there disappeared.

Wish Rob would pop in with the pic of the outline of a body in the empty pond!

That has stuck with me.  All we saw was an apparent excavation site of the mud in the drained pond (in the shape of a body) with a bucket nearby.

But if you were going to surreptitiously remove material from a pond, would you leave such an obvious trail of removal?  Why leave a bucket?  Why leave that shape?  Why not create other sites of disturbance?

You sound like me now.

[MumInOhio]

none of it.

Well, in general I tend to be critical too, but I'm not totally sceptical Even the police has stated that these guys have (drug-)raped girls before. And these days it's very easy to make a 'pornvid' on your cellphone. So some of the story could very well be true. But on the other hand it's well known that a chain of 'hear-say' often let's the facts grow bigger and bigger... So the question than of course is how far or deep did this go?

It is a tale of every community small and large around the world. There are always the elite and there bad habits.
It is a generalization. It is not a specific accusation against any one person and is not a location of a body.
It had an intent. To derail people minds and it is a professional placed piece of "Propaganda".
We worked this Shango thing over, line by line from the beginning of the Shango religion in Nigeria to the island of Aruba and we looked down every yellow brick road ............... It is Bull Carp.
mo.

The reason we have not solved anything is the tremendous amount of disinformation people are willing to Focus on.
But you are more then welcome to follow that road all over again..
jmho

In the words of an Aruba Expert..."It was not about NH"...

But I believe the posters identities tell us a lot about what happened to Natalee...Maybe not the actual crime, but the cover-up and the events immediately following Natalee's disappearance...JMO

[Lala'sMom]

Lala's - did Jossy hire EcoTech?

I have no idea.  I thought John Silvetti was going to do the draining...so maybe it's true that he and John hired them.  So where is the stuff drained from the pond and why did no one know about it when it happened?  Even Julia found it already drained. 

It was done at night...the lights for the soccer field were on, remember.

The stuff was shipped to SA in a container, or most of it was?

Who told us it was shipped to SA? 

[MumInOhio]

Actually, I don't have dates for those pics.  I can only say that I know I received them not more than 3 days after Julia reported the pond as being dry.  Caps would have to answer that question.  I uploaded them to my computer but I have no idea how to find out what that date was...you know how dumb I am on that kind of thing. 

The pond would have been drained within a week of the strike ending.  I know Caps was waiting for it to be drained and then all of a sudden the pond is dry.  Maybe Caps can clear up that timeline for us.

Mum, I think maybe there was a period of time between when the pond was actually drained and when we saw the pictures.  Rob discovered all of them on a website, but once that was found the photographs there disappeared.

Wish Rob would pop in with the pic of the outline of a body in the empty pond!

That has stuck with me.  All we saw was an apparent excavation site of the mud in the drained pond (in the shape of a body) with a bucket nearby.

But if you were going to surreptitiously remove material from a pond, would you leave such an obvious trail of removal?  Why leave a bucket?  Why leave that shape?  Why not create other sites of disturbance?

You sound like me now.

And I am totally confused...LOL

Why did Jossy post a pic in his paper of a pair of shoes for no reason? Heck maybe it was just one...

[MumInOhio]

Lala's - did Jossy hire EcoTech?

I have no idea.  I thought John Silvetti was going to do the draining...so maybe it's true that he and John hired them.  So where is the stuff drained from the pond and why did no one know about it when it happened?  Even Julia found it already drained. 

It was done at night...the lights for the soccer field were on, remember.

The stuff was shipped to SA in a container, or most of it was?

Who told us it was shipped to SA? 

I did...that is where  they ship trash in containers to.  I found it in an article about EcoTech