Home
Blog
Radio
Missing Persons
Crime
March 28, 2024, 10:05:09 AM
Welcome,
Guest
. Please
login
or
register
.
1 Hour
1 Day
1 Week
1 Month
Forever
Login with username, password and session length
News
:
NEW CHILD BOARD CREATED IN THE POLITICAL SECTION FOR THE 2016 ELECTION
Home
Help
Login
Register
Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum
>
Natalee Holloway
>
LCD Archive
> Topic:
Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru 11/19/08
Pages:
«
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
»
Go Down
« previous
next »
Print
Author
Topic: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru 11/19/08 (Read 259688 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
crazybabyborg
Guest
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
«
Reply #960 on:
November 18, 2008, 11:56:19 PM »
I couldn't help but laugh when Beth said she'd settle for a prison anywhere for Joran!!
I'm with BETH!!!
Logged
SS
Monkey Junky
Offline
Posts: 3216
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
«
Reply #961 on:
November 18, 2008, 11:57:25 PM »
Quote from: 2NJSons_Mom on November 18, 2008, 11:50:09 PM
Quote from: Buckeye on November 18, 2008, 11:45:14 PM
It does appear that we are revisiting 2005. Natalee running off to Venezuela with her black boyfriend....
A couple of old posts:
niki from Curacao (originally posted on FP, in Dutch):
“Joran tells, however, the truth. He has left her behind on the beach. But was not that voluntary. She has been doped (drugged ) outside west left behind on the beach. Joran had to, as it happens, an appointment with Venezuelan drug Lord to supply them a blonde maid to serve as a sex slave in the underground world of Caracas. Joran had, as it happens, the necessary gokschulden and stood deeply in red ochre at the Venezuelan drug gangs. Speedboat, normally use to deliver coke on the island was now used to pick up the doped little girl. Our Natalee are alive but not so well in a sex cellar in caracas. Therefore I would advise the americans to look out there. In Venzuela come but few tourists of blonde type therefore it seem to me a rather simple matter to trace the lady there.”
http://scaredmonkeys.com/2005/06/30/natalee-holloway-june-30-2005/#comment-32353
83. Checkme
Moose, in short, NH, located on beach, is expected by party of people, prepared for her, take her to Colombia, (maybe Venezuela). The connection between AUA and Colombia is obviously what is the “missing link” here. I believe they know about this link but expsing it will ping them and all hope for NH being alive will be lost.
Jun 29, 10:16 PM —
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=3642.msg486335#msg486335
The popular theory at the end of June 2005.
There was also a poster, who's name escapes me, who had the coordinates of where she could be found....map and all....hope I'm not alone in this memory.
I think it was Brian from Brian's Dreams. He says she's in Baranquilla (sp) is a sex den with her son. She has short dark hair and tattoos.
Logged
MuffyBee
Former Moderator
Monkey Mega Star
Offline
Posts: 44737
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
«
Reply #962 on:
November 19, 2008, 12:00:00 AM »
Quote from: CBB on November 18, 2008, 11:56:19 PM
I couldn't help but laugh when Beth said she'd settle for a prison anywhere for Joran!!
I'm with BETH!!!
Logged
" Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Moynihan
2NJSons_Mom
Monkey All Star
Offline
Posts: 11324
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
«
Reply #963 on:
November 19, 2008, 12:00:44 AM »
SS,
I know it wasn't Brian....it was not a common name, and the poster seemed out of the ordinary...to put it nicely.
Logged
R.I.P Dear 2NJ - say hi to Peaches for us!
I expect a miracle _Peaches ~ ~ May She Rest In Peace.
SOMEONE KNOWS THE TRUTH
None of us here just fell off the turnip truck. - Magnolia
crazybabyborg
Guest
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
«
Reply #964 on:
November 19, 2008, 12:00:55 AM »
I just checked You Tube and Greta's show from tonight isn't up. I thought it would be worth a second watch. I'll catch it again in the rerun tonight.
Logged
2NJSons_Mom
Monkey All Star
Offline
Posts: 11324
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
«
Reply #965 on:
November 19, 2008, 12:02:46 AM »
Quote from: CBB on November 19, 2008, 12:00:55 AM
I just checked You Tube and Greta's show from tonight isn't up. I thought it would be worth a second watch. I'll catch it again in the rerun tonight.
You're a better woman than I.....but I do remember doing that very often in the recent past.
Logged
R.I.P Dear 2NJ - say hi to Peaches for us!
I expect a miracle _Peaches ~ ~ May She Rest In Peace.
SOMEONE KNOWS THE TRUTH
None of us here just fell off the turnip truck. - Magnolia
crazybabyborg
Guest
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
«
Reply #966 on:
November 19, 2008, 12:02:52 AM »
I'm in St Louis, and in a different time zone than what I'm used to, but I know that Greta repeats sometime tonight!
Logged
SS
Monkey Junky
Offline
Posts: 3216
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
«
Reply #967 on:
November 19, 2008, 12:04:01 AM »
Hi Red - I hope you're feeling better.
Logged
2NJSons_Mom
Monkey All Star
Offline
Posts: 11324
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
«
Reply #968 on:
November 19, 2008, 12:04:03 AM »
Hello, Red...thanks for the heads up on Cohen's email.
Logged
R.I.P Dear 2NJ - say hi to Peaches for us!
I expect a miracle _Peaches ~ ~ May She Rest In Peace.
SOMEONE KNOWS THE TRUTH
None of us here just fell off the turnip truck. - Magnolia
Buckeye
Monkey All Star Jr.
Offline
Posts: 5376
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
«
Reply #969 on:
November 19, 2008, 12:04:15 AM »
Quote from: 2NJSons_Mom on November 19, 2008, 12:00:44 AM
SS,
I know it wasn't Brian....it was not a common name, and the poster seemed out of the ordinary...to put it nicely.
I know Rob had looked into it. I remember pictures of the hilly area and mappings (with pings)????
Logged
crazybabyborg
Guest
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
«
Reply #970 on:
November 19, 2008, 12:05:18 AM »
Quote from: 2NJSons_Mom on November 19, 2008, 12:02:46 AM
Quote from: CBB on November 19, 2008, 12:00:55 AM
I just checked You Tube and Greta's show from tonight isn't up. I thought it would be worth a second watch. I'll catch it again in the rerun tonight.
You're a better woman than I.....but I do remember doing that very often in the recent past.
You've got the change, right?
I'll help get you there, ok?
Logged
2NJSons_Mom
Monkey All Star
Offline
Posts: 11324
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
«
Reply #971 on:
November 19, 2008, 12:06:32 AM »
Quote from: Buckeye on November 19, 2008, 12:04:15 AM
Quote from: 2NJSons_Mom on November 19, 2008, 12:00:44 AM
SS,
I know it wasn't Brian....it was not a common name, and the poster seemed out of the ordinary...to put it nicely.
I know Rob had looked into it. I remember pictures of the hilly area and mappings (with pings)????
Yes, thumb tacks, etc.....the route. Thank you.
Logged
R.I.P Dear 2NJ - say hi to Peaches for us!
I expect a miracle _Peaches ~ ~ May She Rest In Peace.
SOMEONE KNOWS THE TRUTH
None of us here just fell off the turnip truck. - Magnolia
crazybabyborg
Guest
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
«
Reply #972 on:
November 19, 2008, 12:06:55 AM »
Quote from: 2NJSons_Mom on November 19, 2008, 12:04:03 AM
Hello, Red...thanks for the heads up on Cohen's email.
Hi Red!
The e-mail was out of the ordinary, right? I mean you guys don't chat often I would imagine......?
Logged
2NJSons_Mom
Monkey All Star
Offline
Posts: 11324
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
«
Reply #973 on:
November 19, 2008, 12:07:54 AM »
Quote from: CBB on November 19, 2008, 12:05:18 AM
Quote from: 2NJSons_Mom on November 19, 2008, 12:02:46 AM
Quote from: CBB on November 19, 2008, 12:00:55 AM
I just checked You Tube and Greta's show from tonight isn't up. I thought it would be worth a second watch. I'll catch it again in the rerun tonight.
You're a better woman than I.....but I do remember doing that very often in the recent past.
You've got the change, right?
I'll help get you there, ok?
Yes, I will do it...thank you.
Logged
R.I.P Dear 2NJ - say hi to Peaches for us!
I expect a miracle _Peaches ~ ~ May She Rest In Peace.
SOMEONE KNOWS THE TRUTH
None of us here just fell off the turnip truck. - Magnolia
BUCKSHOT
Monkey Junky
Offline
Posts: 1378
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
«
Reply #974 on:
November 19, 2008, 12:08:42 AM »
Quote from: Keepthefaith on November 18, 2008, 06:22:45 PM
Quote from: Blue Moon of KY on November 18, 2008, 06:15:04 PM
Sorry but I am going to "Negative" on all this hoopla. This is about bringing Joran to Aruba and protecting him from the mess he is in in Thailand. Once he is home with his Pappa and Momma and sits a few days in the prison (where he is protected, has a cell phone and all the comforts of home) he will be released to continue on his path to happiness. Nothing more, nothing less. Mos SUCKS.
I tend to Agree..
Without a doubt...
The plan has been scripted...
Time to execute...
Logged
klaasend
Administrator
Monkey Mega Star
Offline
Posts: 74276
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
«
Reply #975 on:
November 19, 2008, 12:09:34 AM »
Quote from: 2NJSons_Mom on November 18, 2008, 11:50:09 PM
Quote from: Buckeye on November 18, 2008, 11:45:14 PM
It does appear that we are revisiting 2005. Natalee running off to Venezuela with her black boyfriend....
A couple of old posts:
niki from Curacao (originally posted on FP, in Dutch):
“Joran tells, however, the truth. He has left her behind on the beach. But was not that voluntary. She has been doped (drugged ) outside west left behind on the beach. Joran had to, as it happens, an appointment with Venezuelan drug Lord to supply them a blonde maid to serve as a sex slave in the underground world of Caracas. Joran had, as it happens, the necessary gokschulden and stood deeply in red ochre at the Venezuelan drug gangs. Speedboat, normally use to deliver coke on the island was now used to pick up the doped little girl. Our Natalee are alive but not so well in a sex cellar in caracas. Therefore I would advise the americans to look out there. In Venzuela come but few tourists of blonde type therefore it seem to me a rather simple matter to trace the lady there.”
http://scaredmonkeys.com/2005/06/30/natalee-holloway-june-30-2005/#comment-32353
83. Checkme
Moose, in short, NH, located on beach, is expected by party of people, prepared for her, take her to Colombia, (maybe Venezuela). The connection between AUA and Colombia is obviously what is the “missing link” here. I believe they know about this link but expsing it will ping them and all hope for NH being alive will be lost.
Jun 29, 10:16 PM —
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=3642.msg486335#msg486335
The popular theory at the end of June 2005.
There was also a poster, who's name escapes me, who had the coordinates of where she could be found....map and all....hope I'm not alone in this memory.
I believe most of that was posted by a psychic on Brian's Dreams site.
Logged
crazybabyborg
Guest
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
«
Reply #976 on:
November 19, 2008, 12:10:02 AM »
I keep thinking about the publicity around new developments in this case, and I'm also remembering how hard Aruba tried to suppress this story. I'm hoping that the net result of any publicity is a negative on tourism.
Logged
BUCKSHOT
Monkey Junky
Offline
Posts: 1378
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
«
Reply #977 on:
November 19, 2008, 12:11:46 AM »
Quote from: WhiskeyGirl on November 18, 2008, 06:28:00 PM
Quote
"We are hoping to make a decision by the end of this year or early next year as to whether we will re-arrest [the younger] van der Sloot or not," Mos told CNN.
The annual arrest Joran ploy?
Quote
Mos said he is confident that the tape, which he characterizes as a confession, is admissible in court. With the new tips and new witnesses whose testimony impeaches earlier statements by van der Sloot and his father, Mos said he might have enough evidence to solve the mystery of what happened to Holloway.
The elder van der Sloot has told police he was at home, asleep in bed until 7 a.m. on the night in question.
And, Joran van der Sloot has never been able to explain what happened to his tennis shoes, Mos said.
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/18/grace.coldcase.holloway/?imw=Y&iref=mpstoryemail
PVDS, does he know who was in the house that morning? Who he woke for school? Who he got on the bus?
PVDS - The sleep-walker, sleep-driver, sleep-cellphonetalker, sleep-bankwithdrawler.
Basically, a sleep-multi-tasker, if you will...
Logged
2NJSons_Mom
Monkey All Star
Offline
Posts: 11324
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
«
Reply #978 on:
November 19, 2008, 12:11:48 AM »
Quote from: klaasend on November 19, 2008, 12:09:34 AM
Quote from: 2NJSons_Mom on November 18, 2008, 11:50:09 PM
Quote from: Buckeye on November 18, 2008, 11:45:14 PM
It does appear that we are revisiting 2005. Natalee running off to Venezuela with her black boyfriend....
A couple of old posts:
niki from Curacao (originally posted on FP, in Dutch):
“Joran tells, however, the truth. He has left her behind on the beach. But was not that voluntary. She has been doped (drugged ) outside west left behind on the beach. Joran had to, as it happens, an appointment with Venezuelan drug Lord to supply them a blonde maid to serve as a sex slave in the underground world of Caracas. Joran had, as it happens, the necessary gokschulden and stood deeply in red ochre at the Venezuelan drug gangs. Speedboat, normally use to deliver coke on the island was now used to pick up the doped little girl. Our Natalee are alive but not so well in a sex cellar in caracas. Therefore I would advise the americans to look out there. In Venzuela come but few tourists of blonde type therefore it seem to me a rather simple matter to trace the lady there.”
http://scaredmonkeys.com/2005/06/30/natalee-holloway-june-30-2005/#comment-32353
83. Checkme
Moose, in short, NH, located on beach, is expected by party of people, prepared for her, take her to Colombia, (maybe Venezuela). The connection between AUA and Colombia is obviously what is the “missing link” here. I believe they know about this link but expsing it will ping them and all hope for NH being alive will be lost.
Jun 29, 10:16 PM —
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=3642.msg486335#msg486335
The popular theory at the end of June 2005.
There was also a poster, who's name escapes me, who had the coordinates of where she could be found....map and all....hope I'm not alone in this memory.
I believe most of that was posted by a psychic on Brian's Dreams site.
Then I stand corrected....SS posted that and I did not know....or maybe missed the boat on that all together back then.
Logged
R.I.P Dear 2NJ - say hi to Peaches for us!
I expect a miracle _Peaches ~ ~ May She Rest In Peace.
SOMEONE KNOWS THE TRUTH
None of us here just fell off the turnip truck. - Magnolia
crazybabyborg
Guest
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru
«
Reply #979 on:
November 19, 2008, 12:12:07 AM »
Quote from: BUCKSHOT on November 19, 2008, 12:08:42 AM
Quote from: Keepthefaith on November 18, 2008, 06:22:45 PM
Quote from: Blue Moon of KY on November 18, 2008, 06:15:04 PM
Sorry but I am going to "Negative" on all this hoopla. This is about bringing Joran to Aruba and protecting him from the mess he is in in Thailand. Once he is home with his Pappa and Momma and sits a few days in the prison (where he is protected, has a cell phone and all the comforts of home) he will be released to continue on his path to happiness. Nothing more, nothing less. Mos SUCKS.
I tend to Agree..
Without a doubt...
The plan has been scripted...
Time to execute...
So you think that Greta was duped into participating in this plan to get Joran home?
Logged
Pages:
«
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
»
Go Up
Print
Scared Monkeys Discussion Forum
>
Natalee Holloway
>
LCD Archive
> Topic:
Natalee Case Discussion #775 11/16/08 thru 11/19/08
« previous
next »
Jump to:
Please select a destination:
-----------------------------
FORUM RULES
-----------------------------
=> Forum Rules and Tips
-----------------------------
Polls, Polls and more Polls
-----------------------------
=> Missing Persons Polls
=> Current Events/News Polls
=> Crime and Trial Polls
=> Just For Fun Polls
-----------------------------
Missing Persons - High Profile
-----------------------------
=> Missing Persons High Profile
===> Dylan Redwine, 13yrs old, last seen 11/19/12, Vallecito, CO
===> Kyron Horman - Portland Oregon
===> Caylee Marie Anthony - Florida (BODY FOUND)
=====> Caylee's Law - by State
=======> Caylee's Law - text
=======> ALABAMA
=======> ALASKA
=======> ARIZONA
=======> ARKANSAS
=======> CALIFORNIA
=======> COLORADO
=======> CONNECTICUT
=======> DELAWARE
=======> DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
=======> FLORIDA
=======> GEORGIA
=======> HAWAII
=======> IDAHO
=======> ILLINOIS
=======> INDIANA
=======> IOWA
=======> KANSAS
=======> KENTUCKY
=======> LOUISIANA
=======> MAINE
=======> MARYLAND
=======> MASSACHUSETTS
=======> MICHIGAN
=======> MINNESOTA
=======> MISSISSIPPI
=======> MISSOURI
=======> MONTANA
=======> NEBRASKA
=======> NEVADA
=======> NEW HAMPSHIRE
=======> NEW JERSEY
=======> NEW MEXICO
=======> NEW YORK
=======> NORTH CAROLINA
=======> NORTH DAKOTA
=======> OHIO
=======> OKLAHOMA
=======> OREGON
=======> PENNSYLVANIA
=======> PUERTO RICO
=======> RHODE ISLAND
=======> SOUTH CAROLINA
=======> SOUTH DAKOTA
=======> TENNESSEE
=======> TEXAS
=======> UTAH
=======> VERMONT
=======> VIRGINIA
=======> WASHINGTON
=======> WEST VIRGINIA
=======> WISCONSIN
=======> WYOMING
=====> Caylee Marie Anthony Murder Trial Archives
===> Sierra Lamar, 15yrs old, Morgan Hill, CA Missing Since March 16, 2012
===> JO ANN (JODIE) BAIN AND 3 DAUGHTERS MISSING 4/27/2012(2 murdered 2 safe)
===> Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6 yrs old missing 4/21/12 Tucson, AZ (Body Found)
===> Jennifer Kesse - Orlando/Ocoee, Florida
===> Susan Powell 28yrs old, missing 12/6/09 West Valley City, Utah
===> Michelle Loree Parker, Last Seen 11/17/11, Orlando, FL
===> Celina Cass, 11yrs old missing 7/25/11 New Hampshire
===> Aliayah Lunsford, 3yrs old, Weston, West VA, missing since 9/24/2011
===> Lisa Irwin, 10mo old missing since 10/4/2011 KC, MO
===> Robyn Gardner missing in Aruba August 2, 2011
=> Missing Persons - High Profile - Archives
-----------------------------
Virginia Area Missing and Murdered - possible connections
-----------------------------
=> Morgan Dana Harrington, 20yrs missing VA Tech 10/17/09(BODY FOUND)
=> Hannah Elizabeth Graham missing since 9/13/14 Charlottesville, VA
=> Alexis Murphy, missing since 8/3/13 Charlottesville, VA
=> Samantha Ann Clarke 19yrs. old Orange Va. Last seen 09/13/10
=> Dashad Sage Smith missing since 11/20/12 Charlottesville, VA
=> Cassandra Morton 23, Lynchburg, missing 10/10/09 body found 11/29/09
-----------------------------
High Profile Crimes and Trials (not missing persons)
-----------------------------
=> Jodi Arias trial - for the murder of Travis Alexander
=> Trial of George Zimmerman - 2nd Degree Murder of 17yr old Trayvon Martin
=> Scott Peterson Appeal of Murder Conviction
-----------------------------
Missing, Exploited and True Crime
-----------------------------
=> Missing Exploited and True Crime
===> Missing Persons Forum
=====> Missing Found or Presumed Deceased
=====> Missing Found Safe
=====> Missing Endangered Runaways
=====> Resourses, Search Groups and Fundraisers
===> Crimes Against Children, Elderly and the Disabled
===> Crimes of Passion/Anger
===> Serial Killers and Their Possible Victims
===> Unsolved Crimes
=====> Finally Solved
===> Haleigh Marie Cummings - Florida
===> Adji Desir - Florida
===> Somer Renee Thompson 7 yo, Orange Park FL 10/19/09(BODY FOUND)
===> Tracy Ocasio - Orlando/Ocoee, Florida
===> Shaniya Nicole Davis, 5 Fayetteville, NC Missing 11/10/09(BODY FOUND)
===> Holly Bobo, 20yrs old missing Parsons, TN 4/13/11
===> Hailey Dunn - 13yrs old - Colorado City, TX missing 12/27/10 (Body Found)
===> Elizabeth Olten - 9yrs, Jefferson City, MO missing 10/21/09 (BODY FOUND)
===> Lindsey Baum - McCleary, WA 6/26/09
===> Amber Leeanne Dubois 14yrs old - Escondido, CA(BODY FOUND)
===> Chelsea King, 17, Missing 2-25-2010 Rancho Bernadino CA (BODY FOUND)
===> Sandra Cantu, 8 years old - Tracy, CA(BODY FOUND)
===> Madeleine McCann - Portugal
===> Christine Marie Sheddy - missing since 11/13/2007 - Maryland(BODY FOUND)
===> Nevaeh Amyah Buchanan 5yr Monroe Michigan(BODY FOUND)
===> Gabriel Johnson 8 mo., last seen 12/26/09 Tempe AZ-San Antonio TX
===> Stacy Ann Peterson missing & Kathleen Savio murdered - Illinois
===> Zahra Clare Baker - 10yrs old Hickory, NC (Body Found)
-----------------------------
Natalee Holloway
-----------------------------
=> Natalee Holloway
=> Important Case Documents
===> Joran Statements/PV's
===> Paulus Statements/PV's
===> Deepak Statements/PV's
===> Satish Statements/PV's
===> Misc Statements/PV's
=> LCD Archive
=> Shango/Simian and other Codetalkers
-----------------------------
Current Events and Musings
-----------------------------
=> Monkey Musings / Open Discussion
=> Pop Culture Main
===> Hugely Popular TV Shows
===> Movies and Television
===> Social Media
===> Music
===> Books
===> Scared Monkeys Radio with Dana Pretzer
=> Health and Medical Issues
=> Food and Product Recalls
=> News of the Day
=> Business News
=> Sports
=> Political Forum
=> Religion (discussion and debate)
-----------------------------
The Monkey Lounge
-----------------------------
=> The Monkey Lounge
===> Fashion & Decorating
===> What's Cooking? Recipes
===> Games
=> Inspirational
===> Memorial - Gone but Never Forgotten
===> Gratefulness - Light a Candle in Prayer
===> Inspirational scriptures, songs, stories and prayers
-----------------------------
Natalee Discussions (2005 ARCHIVE)
-----------------------------
=> Natalee Holloway
=> Theory and Speculation
=> Links and References Only
=> Natalee Breaking News Archive
-----------------------------
General Discussions (2005 ARCHIVE)
-----------------------------
=> News Issues
=> Chit Chat
Loading...