Big 3 Auto Bailout

[WhiskeyGirl]

BLOCKED WEBSITE

[WhiskeyGirl]

Ford Offers Employee Pricing, 0% Financing, Cash-Back, on 2009 Models

"Ford is bullish on fuel economy," said Ken Czubay, Ford's vice president of Sales and Marketing. "Each new and significantly freshened vehicle we've brought to market in the past year has the best or among the best fuel economy in its segment, and we want to provide customers an extra reason to drive one of these high-quality, fuel-efficient cars, crossovers and trucks."

Ford is already offering employee pricing on most of its Ford, Lincoln and Mercury lineup to prop-up slow sales, but it apparently hasn't been enough. Now, to promote the company's newfound dedication to fuel-efficiency, it will also offer 0% financing for 36 months on its nine most-fuel-efficient, non-hybrid, 2009 models, the Ford Focus, Ford Fusion, Ford Escape, Ford Flex, Mercury Milan, Mercury Mariner, Lincoln MKZ, Lincoln MKS and the all new Ford F-150...

The promotion will run through January 5, 2009.

http://wot.motortrend.com/6349742/marketing/ford-offers-employee-pricing-0-financing-cash-back-on-2009-models/index.html

Just in time for holiday stocking stuffers.   

[MumInOhio]

Sure…I think under the 2007 UAW Contracts the big three are hiring in at around $10.00 an hour.

At my DH’s plant overtime was cut many months ago, so we now see about half the wages we did then. Of course this means that all that take their bite before he brings home his wages are getting way less as well!

There was something in that 2007 Contract about the UAW and the retiree Healthcare Benefits…just don’t recall how much they were going to cover. Of course if there are no Union Dues…
 
No jobs for the Auto workers…then nothing going into FICA, Federal , State and local taxes…

Just imagine…all those unemployed…with no money for Unemployment Benefits even though the Big 3 well and truly paid their share for their workers…

No SS for those old enough…that’s already been spent…Medicare…forget it…you just let a huge part of your tax base go under…

For the many who not old enough to even qualify, if the money was there for those programs, their “nest eggs” they put away for their retirement went the same way as the Big 3’s Retirement Funds…Check out the NYSE…

Then again if we had one of those $69 an hour jobs you keep referring to, we may have been able to have enough put away under our mattress to cover our medical bills the next time some part of DH’s body breaks again from 33 years of hard physical work, beginning back when these plants didn’t have the automation they have now!
WhiskeyGirl…You really should check you facts…

And I find it totally despicable that you appear to be gloating over this current state of affairs…Wonder where your Social Security Benefits are going to come? Think about it!!!!

BTW…take a look at Holden in Australia lately…go back to the 80’s and see what really happened to the Australian Auto and Steel Industries…
 

[WhiskeyGirl]

Mum,

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to present another side of the coin...

Sure…I think under the 2007 UAW Contracts the big three are hiring in at around $10.00 an hour.

...
BLOCKED WEBSITE

$28/$15 is more than a McJob.   I wonder if they will post these new job openings on Monster or CareerBuilder?  Maybe there will be online job applications too?

I was thinking about pensions this morning.  From my own experience, when 401k's first came out, companies RUSHED to end their unsustainable pension plans (often underfunded, or not funded in reality).  Workers got a check for the present value of the future benefit (disappointing).  They had two choices that I remember--roll it over into the new 401k option or cash the check and pay taxes on the money.  The worker may have decide to add to the new 401k or let the pension money stay there all by itself.  Thus, many early 401ks were "seeded" with rollover money from pension plans that were ended.  Not wealthy people, but average people, with seed money from many years of dedicated hard work...

Why not end the UAW pension plan and rollover all that money?  401k?  GRA?  This seems to have been the pattern for many years (25 years or more).

*It also seems like pension plans are another tax loophole like the 401k and IRAs are now considered.  IIRC, Teresa G. (UAW consultant/employee?), is trying to 'fix' the 401k/IRA loophole with her suggested GRA.  If the 'GRA' is good for 401ks and IRAs, it should be good for everyone, including private pensons, imho.

At my DH’s plant overtime was cut many months ago, so we now see about half the wages we did then. Of course this means that all that take their bite before he brings home his wages are getting way less as well!

Corker's question prompted an odd scene in which Nardelli was forced to explain to Gettelfinger, as both sat at the witness table, that what Corker meant was the following: When Chrysler plants are idled because they are not making vehicles, Chrysler is still required to pay its UAW workers 95 percent of their wages.

Gettelfinger stumbled a bit and offered that those wages are actually the workers's "unemployment."
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/economy-watch/2008/11/corker_uaw_should_not_be_paid.html?hpid=topnews

I don't know anyone who gets 95% of their pay when they are unemployed.  Not an expert, but I expect a miserly fixed amount (with a maximum) from my state unemployment department.  It also runs out after a few months...think of all the extensions for the current umemployed.

In practice IIRC, the benefit of 95% UAW unemployment is for like two or more years.  The company pays into retirement and continues healthcare benefits too.  I don't know anyone (except autoworkers) that get that kind of deal when they are laid off or their jobs go to China or India--forever.

There was something in that 2007 Contract about the UAW and the retiree Healthcare Benefits…just don’t recall how much they were going to cover. Of course if there are no Union Dues…

IIRC, in the past few days, there have been numerous news article that the UAW (Teresa G.) is looking for an additional government bailout to add/fund $25 billion for the UAW healthcare fund of the future--to ensure it is solvent until 2080.  That $25 billion is being funded by taxpayers - many people who work McJobs, are currently unemployed, and who may not have any health or pension benefits.  I have no idea where the funding for my Medicare/Medicaid is coming from.

I've worked hard my whole life too.

No jobs for the Auto workers…then nothing going into FICA, Federal , State and local taxes…

Just imagine…all those unemployed…with no money for Unemployment Benefits even though the Big 3 well and truly paid their share for their workers…

No SS for those old enough…that’s already been spent…Medicare…forget it…you just let a huge part of your tax base go under…

For the many who not old enough to even qualify, if the money was there for those programs, their “nest eggs” they put away for their retirement went the same way as the Big 3’s Retirement Funds…Check out the NYSE…

The nest eggs of many Americans may have been rolled into 401ks and IRAs.  The government seems to be targeting this money, reported to be at least $11 trillion for a new "enhanced" Social Security program/tax.

The reality - people may have worked years for a pension (roll to 401k), then added to that with contributions directly out of their paychecks.  Let's see... 30 years pension + 20 years post pension = 50 years of 401k or IRA money.  Now, the government decides that there is some kind of loophole that needs to be fixed.  ...  

Government wants that money for something...spending?  Coerce ("sweeten the pot" in media speak) people into rolling it over to a new "Government Retirement Account" or GRA.  This would effectively end the employer contribution (loophole in government POV) and end the tax deferred treatment of the 401k/IRA.  Hmmm... taxpayers also expected to fund UAW private pensions...  Something just not right about that...imho.

I think 401ks and IRA have been very successful.  The money is still there for people to enjoy.  Where is the Social Security and Medicare trust fund?  Why is that empty?

Why are pensions underfunded?

It doesn't matter how much you make, it's what you save that matters.  
In the end, that's all you've got.  
Now, the government wants to take that too.

Then again if we had one of those $69 an hour jobs you keep referring to, we may have been able to have enough put away under our mattress to cover our medical bills the next time some part of DH’s body breaks again from 33 years of hard physical work, beginning back when these plants didn’t have the automation they have now!
WhiskeyGirl…You really should check you facts…

A lot of people work hard physical labor--farm workers, road workers, day care workers, nurses...  If not hard physical labor, they stand on their feet all day--waitressess, cashiers, flaggers...    If they sit, their arms, backs, and veins go too--secretaries, bus drivers, truckers...

Individuals NOT having a $69 / hr job with lovely benefits, are expected to save for their own retirement and future healthcare needs--Social Security and Medicare are not expected to be there.

Many people have been paying into Medicare for their entire lives.  Will Medicare be there for them?  Is that fund in a healthy condition?

Despite modest incomes, if someone managed to pay off their house, will they qualify for Medicaid?  Or, will they be expected to sell everything?  Maybe not sell, but will the government put a lein on everything?

I think everyone would like to have their healthcare paid for until they die.  I think everyone would like to have trust funds paid for in advance.  How many Americans have that expectation today?  That luxury?

Now should all the little people, without a generous pension, and a healthy healthcare fund for the future, also be expected to pay (through increased taxes)  to fund private healthcare and pensions for others?  There just seems to be something wrong with that.  

And I find it totally despicable that you appear to be gloating over this current state of affairs…Wonder where your Social Security Benefits are going to come? Think about it!!!!

BTW…take a look at Holden in Australia lately…go back to the 80’s and see what really happened to the Australian Auto and Steel Industries…

Gloating?  I have a 401k and it is appalling to me that the government is EVEN thinking about taking that away.  And, I will be expected through taxes to pay for private benefits (healthcare / pensions) for others.

Why not treat everyone the same?  Roll the healthcare / pensions for members of Congress, Medicare, UAW and other private plans into the new Obama plan(s).  Is something wrong with everyone getting on board the same motor coach?

I don't make anywhere near $69/hr.  I'm already tapped out paying for federal/state/local taxes, FICA, Medicare, health insurance premiums, 401k contributions, life insurance, disability insurance, etc.  


There's something wrong with all these bailouts!  


Will Congress, the president, and  president-elect, be ashamed of themselves?

I have a sneaky suspicion that SS won't be there when I retire, and my 401k won't either.  I won't have Social Security, Medicare, a private pension, or private healthcare fund to rely on--those things are gone forever.

[MumInOhio]

Not going to get into a slogging match with you...Just know where we are now and how it is...53 years of age...little chance of finding further employment...terrible health from multiple surgeries, back, knees that have to be redone...Lot of that came from being required to work 72 hours a week for extended periods of time...and boy did the Feds love us then!

Our retirement funds has not been matched like many others are. That was all our own money.

The Auto Makers pay into States Unemployment Funds and those contributions have hardly been used since the 80's until recently...the rest of the 95% comes from OUR Union dues we pay every month!

Funny they want to bail out people that didn't want to read their Mortgage contracts...or thought they were so clever with variable interest only mortgages, but don't want to help a major part of the nation's economy!

Without a tax base NONE of these Federal programs can survive!





 

[WhiskeyGirl]

I do not believe this is a slogging match, it is the opportunity to present differing points of view.  Help us understand where everyone is coming from - discussion.  Not many participating...

thank you for input

If I were to sum up my previous post in fewer words -

Wall Street bailout recipients seem to represent the 'elite' of the financial workforce--the fat cats.   Autoworkers seem to be among the 'elite' of American labor--the fat cats. 

Not many workers have a tidy wages and benefit package like Wall Street or the autoworkers (management and labor).  If they did, it's gone forever. 

How many green jobs or infrastructure jobs could be funded with all that money (the $350 billion balance left for Obama, or the automaker bailout legislation)?

If taxpayers can bailout the pension and health funds of the automakers, can they also restore and fund the pensions and health plans of millions of Americans that have ended over the years?  Why not?

People who worked for the Enron's of this world (many that did not make the news), that went belly-up a  few years ago (or the past 40 years) lost their pensions, 401k money, and healthcare...no government bailout.

Why isn't Washington doing ANYTHING to make Social Security sound for future generations of retirees?  Medicare?


Where is the bailout for Main Street?  The people who make 'everyday money' and have to save for their own retirement and future healthcare?


  Is my billion dollar bailout check in the mail?

That's what I call a stimulus package.    

  I'd buy that for a dollar...

(or the payment of union dues)

   


================

A union-run health care trust known as a voluntary employee benefit association, or VEBA, was supposed to help the automakers escape bankruptcy by capping the amount they would pay for retiree health care expenses. ...the VEBA was described as insurance against losing retiree health care benefits should the automakers file for bankruptcy. ...

But in July, GM deferred paying $1.7 billion into the VEBA, angering GM retirees.

The total value of the health care trust is to be about $60 billion, with GM providing around $33 billion, Ford roughly $15 billion and Chrysler about $9 billion. Each company will fund and manage the VEBA separately until 2010, after which the UAW will keep the funds for each company’s retirees separate.

Part of the VEBA is to be funded by the deferral of a 3 percent wage increase for current UAW workers...

“If we get the money [for the VEBA], we’ll be OK,” Ghilarducci says. “If the companies go bankrupt, then we’ll stand in line with all the other creditors.”

http://www.workforce.com/section/00/article/25/94/05.php

Will the U.S. Treasury put up the $58 billion that the companies must pay the UAW to support a trust fund for retiree health care?

http://socialistworker.org/2008/11/10/bailout-for-auto

GM delayed a $1.7 billion.  Other sources suggest a $25 billion dollar bailout, it seems to have increased to $58 billion somewhere along the line.

Why shouldn't all workers expect a bail out?  The same fair treatment by government? 


It is very disturbing to me as a taxpayer, that bankruptcy for the Big 3, from what I've been reading, seems to be in the bag (not something that may be preventable at this point in time).  And yet, they continue to lobby for all this money...

A billion dollar bailout for every taxpayer would go a long way to ensuring my personal retirement and future healthcare.     


Who is representing people at Walmart, McDonalds, or the self-employed?  Congress?  The UAW?  President?  President-elect? 

I don't see anyone looking out for people who make 'everyday' money...

[WhiskeyGirl]

This article has several charts with greater details -

November 19, 2008
Auto Bailout Ignores Excessive Labor Costs
by James Sherk

Without government intervention, one or more of the Big Three automobile manufacturers--General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler--faces restructuring in bankruptcy. Bankruptcy would not be the end of the Big Three but a new beginning.  ...the automakers would start fresh, free of the contractual obligations that have kept them uncompetitive...

The average private sector worker earned $25.36 an hour in 2006--$17.91 an hour in cash wages and $7.45 an hour in benefits such as pensions, paid time off, and health insurance.[1] Autoworkers at Japanese plants located in the United States earn substantially more than this: between $42 and $48 an hour in wages and benefits, which amounts to over $80,000 a year in total compensation...[2]

The typical UAW worker at the Big Three earned between $71 and $76 an hour in 2006.... The average unionized worker at the Big Three earns over $130,000 a year in wages and benefits.[3]

Average people who make 'everyday' money would have to work three or four full time jobs a week to make $130,000.  Jobs that pay 'everyday' money are hard to find in this economy.

Gold Plated Health Care ...GM workers and retirees must pay monthly premiums of $10 for an individual and $21 for families.

In my circle of family and friends--people may pay hundreds of dollars each month in premiums for employer sponsored healthcare.  On top of this, they must pay deductibles and copayments.  Drug copayments may be like $80 for a 90 day supply.  Some, cannot afford private insurance and remain uninsured.

Seven weeks vacation. A Chrysler worker with 15 years' tenure was entitled to 34.5 paid holidays and vacation days in 2006--seven weeks in paid time off.[7] This is three weeks more paid vacation than the average private sector worker with similar tenure.

I don't know many that are able to work at one place for 15 years anymore...

Taxpayers Should Not Bailout the UAW

...the UAW, along with the Detroit automakers, are asking taxpayers to help keep UAW earnings at $75 an hour when the typical American takes home a third that much. The Big Three also want Congress to use taxpayers' money to pay billions of dollars into the new health care VEBA, thereby funding health care benefits for UAW retirees that are far more generous than those provided by an already under-funded Medicare system.

UAW workers understandably want to preserve the standard of living to which they have become accustomed, but that standard is not sustainable in a competitive economy. Congress should not tax all Americans in order to maintain UAW workers' affluent lifestyles.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Economy/wm2135.cfm

[WhiskeyGirl]

United Airlines and CNW employees (union and non-union) went the route of employee ownership.  Why isn't this an option for the autoworkers?

[vms]

If the "Big 3" fail, how many other industry related jobs will go down with them?

[WhiskeyGirl]

... As consumers find vehicles made by Japanese and other transplants more attractive, like those imported from Korea and eventually from China, the Detroit Three will cede market share of one or a few percentage points each year.

If Chapter 11 is put off, the successors to GM, Ford and Chrysler that emerge from a bankruptcy reorganization process will be smaller and support fewer jobs than if these companies endure this difficult transition in 2009.

More jobs can be saved among GM, Ford and Chrysler and their suppliers if bankruptcy reorganization is endured now than in the future.

When Americans buy automobiles from the Detroit Three, more is contributed to the vitality of the U.S. economy than when Americans buy vehicles assembled here by transplants or imports. These vehicles have more U.S. content in terms of jobs, engineering and profits than do foreign nameplate vehicles.

...improve the attractiveness of making cars and parts in the United States by improving the public policy environment. This would include finally addressing, directly and forthrightly, undervalued currencies in Asia—currencies kept cheap by intervention by foreign monetary authorities in China and elsewhere. ...offer an incentive for car buyers to trade in their gas guzzlers—the newer and the bigger the clunker, the more the car buyer would receive under the condition the vehicle is destroyed. This would raise the price carmakers receive from selling smaller vehicles.

Congress could provide substantial product development assistance to U.S.-based automakers and suppliers. The latter includes Toyota, Nissan and Honda, as well as the Detroit Three, battery makers and other suppliers to accelerate the production of innovative, high-mileage cars.

The condition for assistance would be that beneficiaries do their R&D and first large production runs in the United States, and share their patents at reasonable costs with other companies manufacturing in the United States. The huge U.S. market would help attract producers from around the world and rejuvenate the U.S. auto supply chain.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1015302.shtml

Not sure I agree with everything, but there are some ideas here.

[WhiskeyGirl]

If the "Big 3" fail, how many other industry related jobs will go down with them?

Why would the "Big 3" fail?

The "Big 3" don't have to fail, imho, they need to change. 

Rebirth...a new Phoenix...

Changing instead of failing, would save jobs for a lot of people, including those in industry related jobs. 

Jobs that may still be there to provide opportunities for the children of those same workers.  Jobs that may provide opportunity for thousands that have been laid off over time, and in other industries.

Autoworkers like many, have a death grip on the past, when the present is screaming for CHANGE.  The future is forfeit.

Unlike other workers, those in the auto industry have the ear of Congress.  They have the opportunity to make things better, and possibly the funding.  It's up to them.

I believe there are many people would would welcome those post-bankruptcy jobs with their reduced wages and benefits. 

The alternative?  Hoping that unemployment benefits are extended yet again by Congress...and worrying about your family going without insurance.


One man's bitter apple, is another man's  French toast...


(or in the words of another..."I see opportunity")


Just my humble opinions.

[WhiskeyGirl]

Who cries for the steel worker?

[WhiskeyGirl]

Who will cry for the coal workers?  There is STILL the opportunity to fix the coal industry, make it cleaner.  Is anyone in Washington listening to the coal workers?  not

[MumInOhio]

The elite of the Workforce! You are talking regular Blue collar workers here. We are Main Street America! Mailmen make as much an hour as my husband does, and don't tell me they don't have a good benefit package.

As I posted earlier...The auto Industry is encouraging their older workers to retire so that they will be hiring all new staff at the lower rates. This has already been happening. Certain sections of plants have already been sub-contracted out and as I understand it from the horse's mouth, these people are paid $10 an hour and do not receive any benefits from the auto makers.

From what I have heard and read about the bailout for Retiree's Health Insurance it is to cover until the economy picks up, the credit squeeze is over. If they had been able to borrow this money they would already have done it!

Who is going to buy a car from a Bankrupt company? We purchased DD a new GM in February...she chose it, she loves it. Much better, she thought to any else on the market at the time other than a Mustang, which was totally out of the question! She compared Hondas, Fords, everything she could. She made an intelligent decision.

I have been hearing for over a week now that the vehicles the big 3 produce are not inferior to their Japanese counterparts, just the public's perception. The Big Three have been trying to change that perception. Many consumers don't do research before purchasing, somewhere along the line they heard that Japanese cars where better so that it is where they go.

Think we are around 120,000 miles on our Taurus...basically has cost us nothing, but tires, oil changes etc...and our vehicle is a 1996...Ford of course.

If you let this Industry go under, then all the other by products of that industry go under. In two weeks or less, the States and Federal government will have lost such an enormous part of their revenue, that I believe it will be devasting to this country's economy.

[MumInOhio]

Oops! Consider us everyday people...Making everyday money...Trying as hard as we can to plan or our own future, and done a heck of a lot to support the economy over the 33 years my DH has labored away in the Auto Industry...and I can tell you it is not a labor of Love!

I believe those $60 to $70 an hour figures you keep posting may include our pension, which saves the government on paying us Social Security. We don't get both...but we sure pay a heap into FICA.

Totally at a loss as to what all these benefits actually entail...we have co-pays for Dr.s visits, and hospital stays...we get an eye exam, pay for our lenses and some of our frames, Hubby gets some on his mandated safety glasses, we pay most. Cap on Dental. Actually all our co-pays went up under the new contracts, part of a way to save the Company money.

[WhiskeyGirl]

I think Americans make a lot of good cars.  I have an old Ford.  Often, it's  the only vehicle in my extended family that starts up on the coldest days of winter.  It may not be pretty to look at, but the air conditioning works better in the old Ford as well--never needed any maintenance.

An $8 - $10 McJob with few if any benefits is at the opposite end of the wage spectrum.   In my area, the McJobs are hard to find these days. 

[crazybabyborg]

Just my opinion:

IMO, the prime group that should be the object of government intervention are the individuals who have planned for and those who are living on their retirements depending on their pensions, IRA's etc. Those people should have been the recipients of bailout money to restore what they lost and a cushion to help maintain them while they regroup.

The Auto industry is a business that is a victim of their business decisions. When CEO's bring down a 28 million annual salary and deboard one of their fleet of 8 private jets to carry their tin cup to congress, something's terribly wrong. When congress even has to debate taking money earned from the average American wage earner making $18.50 an hour to secure the wages of other workers making 2-5 times that, something is terribly wrong.

The mortgage mess that bears a huge brunt of responsibility for this crisis could have been avoided, and congress and corruption laid out the red carpet for this economic crisis to be ushered in. There's a lot of people who lived and are living beyond their means because of what congress set up and perpetuated. I don't view the sub-prime homeowner as the same ilk of victim as I do those who have lost what they have set back for their future and have lost because our government set them up for sacrifice. They should not have to pay the price for that anymore than the average wage earner should have to pay the price for what the big 3 negotiated with their Unions. At some point, people have to take responsibility for their decisions, and if you sign a contract, you should have known what it said.

"Industry" is not the victim, people within that industry are. Help the workers, but keep in mind that other industries have filed Chapter 11 and have continued to operate and emerged stronger after reconstruction. I'm not at all worried about people's reluctance to purchase American made cars when made under bankruptcy. Don't underestimate free markets. If there is a need for parts that isn't being met, someone will recognize that opportunity and fill the hole. That's just good business opportunity, and as long as "government" doesn't own every business and free markets exist, workers will be needed to man the entrapeuners who seize opportunities.

Something's terribly wrong. CEO's of Fannie and Freddy making millions a year and leaving with multimillion parachutes, members of congress sitting on regulatory committees lining their pockets with Fannie money and utterly rejecting hard evidence of corruption within Fannie and Freddy, Auto Industry Fat cats with fleets of jets making almost 30 million a year, unions throwing the dice to maintain their deals while their members twist in the wind with depleted retirements and are vulnerable to land without a job at all and broke. They should start up a big ball manufacturing industry, because they sure enough have them to be able to even form the words that indicate they give a damn about their workers. Folks living in homes way above their means and smiling while congress contorts themselves to "help" them, while the average wage earner struggles with the mortgage they read for the only house they could afford and keeps looking at their dwindling checks and praying their government won't take away the 60% they are allowed to keep. Who speaks for them?

And Politicians make speeches and ooze the words, "I care". Bull Chit. It comes down to who they owe for helping them obtain the power they crave. Who put them there and who is likely to keep them there? Help the PEOPLE. Most of them are smart enough and ethical enough to make their lives work if Government will just stop rearranging the playing field.

Auto Management, Unions, and Congress do not care or feel responsible for average Americans. They ALL have and have had the power to protect the workers and have methodically chosen to stick it to them at every opportunity. When the Auto CEO's sell the jets, lower their salaries, and use the savings to restore worker's lost benefits and retirements, and when unions come to the table and say "what can we do to keep our workers in a job", and congress stops spending and committing other people's money and begins protecting the American people instead of deal making and pursuing power for themselves, then we can all take an attitude that we are in this together.

Now THAT would be change.

[GreatOwl]

I do not often get into these discussions, however, I do note one questions by Whiskey Girl that I need to respond to.

It was that of "Why not be employee owned?"

I really do not know about the others, but Chrysler seems to not care to sell any of its rights to subsidiaries.  The goes much further that just the autoworkers.  Chrysler is the parent company of a paper making company by the name of New Page.  The plant in our area has just been shut down.  It has left hundreds of workers out of jobs.  It has had a huge impact on a small community which has always had the paper mill.  The name of the town is Kimberley.  This was the origin of Kimberley Clark many decades ago and then they up and moving corporate to Atlanta.  This mill has been around as long as I can remember and workers have lived and died with each sale.

Now it has closed.....  The signs around the yards all over my area say, "run it or sell it."  They refuse to sell even to those that have proposed making it a employee owned operation.  Just proposing that a company go this route is not the answer.  The owners have to be willing to sell.  Chrysler is not!!!  I am not sure if it is a matter of taking a "tax loss" or they are afraid of competition with the mills that still remain open?

In any case, while I do believe that we need to retain our American identity in the auto industry and in other ventures, it is not as simple as what we perceive on the surface.  These huge companies need to make concessions if they want to be bailed out.  I do support the legislators in my area that are holding firm in opposing a bailout until Chrysler agrees to either sell or reopen the paper mill as a part of their condition for bailout.

I has never been able losing money because of a lack of being competitive.  It has been strictly about turning a larger profit.

[GreatOwl]

I do not often get into these discussions, however, I do note one questions by Whiskey Girl that I need to respond to.

It was that of "Why not be employee owned?"  It can not be employee owned if a company refuses to sell.

I really do not know about the others, but Chrysler seems to not care to sell any of its rights to subsidiaries.  This goes much further than just the autoworkers.  Chrysler is the parent company of a paper making company by the name of New Page.  The plant in our area has just been shut down.  It has left hundreds of workers out of jobs.  It has had a huge impact on a small community which has always had the paper mill.  The name of the town is Kimberley.  This was the origin of Kimberley Clark many decades ago and then they up and moved corporate to Atlanta.  This mill has been around as long as I can remember and workers have lived and died with each sale.

Now it has closed.....  The signs around the yards all over my area say, "run it or sell it."  They refuse to sell even to those that have proposed making it an employee owned operation.  Just proposing that a company go this route is not the answer.  The owners have to be willing to sell.  Chrysler is not!!!  I am not sure if it is a matter of taking a "tax loss" or they are afraid of competition with the mills that still remain open?

In any case, while I do believe that we need to retain our American identity in the auto industry and in other ventures, it is not as simple as what we perceive on the surface.  These huge companies need to make concessions if they want to be bailed out.  I do support the legislators in my area that are holding firm in opposing a bailout until Chrysler agrees to either sell or reopen the paper mill as a part of their condition for bailout.

I has never been able losing money because of a lack of being competitive.  It has been strictly about turning a larger profit.  My own opinion is that too many companies tend to buy up far more than they can afford to in times of prosperity and then when times are difficult they dump what was once a profitable venture before their own take over.

edited because my brain doesn't function at 5:00 am.....  please ignore that mess I originally posted.   I hope this is better.

[WhiskeyGirl]

The skeptic in me thinks that some just want enough money to float the company until year end to pay corporate management bonus and other compensation. 

IMHO, good fuel economy is 50 plus MPG.  It's what sells all those Prius, SmartCars, and others.  They don't get 50, but they get much better than say 24.  People are on waiting lists for SmartCars for years.  Prius is a little better.

I'd like a car that gets 50 plus MPG or electric, seats four and has room for stuff, and I can put my dog in there and take it on vacation.  I like to carpool.

I don't know why they wouldn't want to make themselves smaller.  They've already (from news reports) laid off so many people, I don't think it is even realistic to say they will have a lower pay rate for 'new' employees.  I would imagine they need to get all the inactive ones active again.  So, the 'new' employee pay and benefit program is a straw man or red herring at this point in time.

I don't think bigger is always better, just like in banking.  I think "to big to fail" will turn out to be a bad idea.  Maybe some are too big already, and are dangerous to the general welfare of this nation.

Is it better to lose 100% of a sector, or perhaps 10%?

Why lose employment for 100% of your employees, if you could save some of the business and maybe keep 60%?

I have to believe they have smart people working for those companies, creative people that would have done a lot to improve fuel economy over the year.  Where did all the R&D money go?  Compensation?  Bonuses?  How does the R&D budget compare to employee bonuses?

If the Big 3 fail, that will mean consumers will buy other vehicles, and I would imagine that someone will take up those sales and job opportunities that come with them.

I do think that corporate America (and other countries) do not run companies with the idea that the company will exist in the future, or that it has a place to provide future jobs.  It all seems to be about 'gutting the pig' and taking what you can, regardless of the job loss.  There is no future.

jmho