Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 - 11/26/08

[ldstlou]

From Kyle: May 8, 2008: "I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal."

Did you read the email brought over from BFN from OE and can you answer it,as well as bring it and your answer forward??If you care to.Thanx in advance

I did respond to the email at BFN.

BUT in addition to that response there, look at this:

The following events are all recorded on camera during multiple interviews in the following order:
1) Dave Holloway talked to Tim Miller to help him search out at sea for Natalee
2) Tim Miller got together with Louis who has resources and contacts to conduct challenging ocean searches
3) Louis got in touch with John S. who does ocean searches and has the equipment and personnel to do so
4) John contracted Kyle to run the sonar work and over a dozen other good team members to make it all possible (that's a lot of conspirators!)

Not the other way around.

If this was a conspiracy search as Kermit claims, then she is calling Dave Holloway a liar and therefore Dave must be the mastermind behind the conspiracy. Her claims mean that Dave must want this mystical pipeline built that no one has actually ever heard anything about. Perhaps Kermit and others would buy into this nonsense.
 

In KYLES OWN WORDS:
#484 on: March 20, 2008, 05:27:54 PM
First, WOW I haven't heard anything about two ships, or ships of that size being used in the search. I don't know where this information came from.  The Persistence was the right boat for the job.  Let me explain over kill.  Over kill was when we were finished using the capabilities intrinsic to the Persistence.  This includes a geophysical suite, namely side scan sonar, magnetometer, and bathymetric mapping abilities.  Once this portion of the work was complete, we no longer needed these capabilities. The information that came out early on about these tw boats you mentioned... I have not seen... and I was involved in the planning.
There was a re-direct in which ship would be used before the Persistence.  I'm unsure of the boat that was to be used, but it withdrew at the last minute during mobilization if I'm not mistaken.  If memory serves, it was a similar size to the Persistence. I'm sure someone here within minutes of the posting will correct me and post all the information on the boat.  It may have been the Apache.  Not sure.  Either way, the Persistence was just right for the job.  However, it isn't a ROV boat even though we used a small inspection class ROV with it.  It also lacks a dynamic positioning system enabling it to "hover" over a fixed position using bow and stern thrusters.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg367241#msg367241

Kermit, can you tell me why this is crucial? I keep missing the point you are trying to make? Kyle is discussing the preparations before they left. Sounds as though other boats were considered. So bottom line, can you tell me who made the final decision as to what boat would do the search? Wht repeat Kyle's words in a different context?

[Kermit]

Are you sure that Jug has seen the photos posted yesterday,
and he is not thinking of the photos that Robin posted earlier
this year?

And when did Jug start speaking for Beth again   

Jug and Beth do not fight with each. They are still speaking with each other and if most knew the truth they would be very surprised at what the situation is between them at this very moment.  But to each his on in what you wish to believe.  I an through beating this dead horse...let's talk about the Greta stuff now.

All well and good.

But Beth was aware of the photos.

Apparently Jug was not. 

Now, carry on

Sharon I am not understanding what you are trying to say and why you are writing it in red? She was aware of the photos? Does that mean you believe she thinks there was a conspiracy by Kyle to hide evidence? You think that is what Beth believes?

Flag this message
email received
Thursday, July 17, 2008 1:46 PM
From:
"beth (I have edited her email)
To:
kermit ( I have edited my email)

NOTE the date and the response is "EMAILED RECEIVED", Please do no doubt I have the correspondence



Idstlou,
If Beth chose to not share the information with Jug, it's not my call. It is hers.
She HAS the pictures and information. These photos were NOT given to her or Dave by the Persistence crew/owner or FBI.

IF Jug would like to speak to me, please feel free to have him contact me.
I have ALL the documents and Proof of what I have posted as well as ALL of Kyles statements to me. I am more then happy to let Jug see them.
Beth has some of them already through myself as well as through private eye.
 
THIS IS BETHS ANSWER TO MY ASKING FOR PERMISSION TO EXPOSE THE ARUBA COVER-UP
Flag this message
Re: Permission to EXPOSE ARUBA COVER-UP
Monday, September 8, 2008 6:10 PM
From: "Beth
Add sender to Contacts
To: kermit

Sure!
 
All the best to everyone~




CORRESPONDENCE WITH KYLE ABOUT RED
From Kyle: march 18, 2008:
If you want, you can get Red from SM off my back. I really don't like that guy. He thinks he knows what's going on but doesn't have a clue. I first saw the pics on the SM home page and fired off an email to Red believing that he would be understanding and help provide answers. I quickly found out what happened on my own and dealt with it. I could not believe his response.
~Kyle

DID KYLE TURN OVER EVERYTHING TO THE FBI?
From Kyle: I have not given anything to the FBI since the pictures and statements from Dec 29th

From Kyle: None of us gave any statements to the authorities after the 29th. It's possible John Silvetti did, because he was the only one conversing with them after Jan 7th. I[/b]


KYLE RETURNED TO THE U.S. AND TRIED TO SELL THE PHOTOS THAT WERE POSTED HERE YESTERDAY
From Kyle: May 8, 2008: "I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal."[/b]


As I stated before, if Jug wants to contact me and wants to have the copies of what I know, PLEASE tell him to do so. I would be VERY HAPPY LIL FROG TO DO SO

ribbit

Very interesting!Thanx again Kermit!

Kermit, I still don't get your point and there is nothing new to pass on to Jug.

Once again...what I spoke to Jug about was: there is a reporter from California who is saying that photos there is a sort of "conspiracy" with members of the Persistence and she believes there was information and evidence gathered that has been with held from the family.

You say Beth saw them...I certainly believe that Beth saw them-no argument.

I believe the inferences are that members of the Persistence have evidence, including Natalee's body, and it was kept from the family or that the family knows and don't want to tell at the moment. That is the part that is in my mind absolutely rediculous and Jug confirmed. I don't know what the rest of the mumbo jumbo proves?
What is the point if there are photos Kyle kept???!! That means conspiracy?? thats just crazy to me. Sounds like renho baloney to me.

so many rumors and conspiracies floating around, I just try and get down to the facts. One such rumor is that kermit is writing a book. Probably another rediculous statement, I take them all with a grain of salt. But the rumors and innuendo in regards to Tim Miller and members of the Persistence are just hurtful imho. Those people stopped their lives and busted their azzes looking for Natalee, and I believe that is the position Natalee's family takes.

No I am not writing a book. Again, your sources are misinformed.
I agree that it is despicable to lie to the public in order to get more money, to attempt to "strike deals" with producers to get money rather then do the right thing.

Believe me. I agonized over what I sent to show Beth. It was very hard for even me to look at the photo overlay of how Natalee was inside that cage and I told Beth, send it to Jug, let him tell you. I was and have tried to protect the family at every turn in the case. TRUST THAT. I have.

[Edward]

THIS IS BETHS ANSWER TO MY ASKING FOR PERMISSION TO EXPOSE THE ARUBA COVER-UP
Flag this message
Re: Permission to EXPOSE ARUBA COVER-UP
Monday, September 8, 2008 6:10 PM
From: "Beth
Add sender to Contacts
To: kermit

Sure!
 
All the best to everyone~
 

you're kidding right?

yes

[Tylergal]

It just seems like the main thing here should be Natalee and not who told whom what and who made money or expects to make money off the backs of Natalee, Beth and Dave but those who have worked hard to gather data and worked physically finding Natalee in earnest, if they want to sell pictures, by golly, you gots to make some money someway, somehow, and even the sleaze bag journalists and lawyers deserve money along the way if they work for it (well, maybe not them but..)

[ldstlou]

Personally, I would like to see Kermit and OE come together on this board for the most important reason, Natalee.

Can you comprehend putting all out there for her and stop the courtroom drama. Who cares who did what at this point, let's just bring Natalee home, please?

Can we be honest for the sake of Natalee?

Wouldn't that make your big meal on Thursday taste just a little better?

I offered to allow him to do so. Everyone here saw that.
He is busy emailing other forums with information that is false.
Just like when Red confronted him, he wanted someone to help him "get Red off his back".

I thought of something funny to say, but I better not. Mrs Red might shoot me.

 

I don't see anything funny.
He minced words with Red. They had a disagreement, it was very public, nothing hidden there.
He minced words with many of us through out the trip. He had theories, and sometimes his theories changed. We all did. Why the attack on Kyle. He missed his wife's pregnancy to look for Natalee. He missed Holidays with his family. He worked long hard frustrating hours. He named his daughter after Natalee. He kept us posted, answered all of our questions, took some heat when we disagreed but he has always hung in there for the Monkeys, and for Natalee. So why the attack on him now?

[Kermit]

THIS IS BETHS ANSWER TO MY ASKING FOR PERMISSION TO EXPOSE THE ARUBA COVER-UP
Flag this message
Re: Permission to EXPOSE ARUBA COVER-UP
Monday, September 8, 2008 6:10 PM
From: "Beth
Add sender to Contacts
To: kermit

Sure!
 
All the best to everyone~
 

you're kidding right?

NO. You think I am, um, what would be a good word that you might be thinking, dumb? Stupid? I just don't have the emails or back ups of evidence? PLEASE Idstlou, think about it. I would not have exposed this if I didn't have the evidence.

[Blue Moon]

I don't care what the reason is, if Kyle was trying to sell photos for money that is wrong! Anybody making money off this tragedy for any reason is wrong!

Why not give them to PDV or any other network for free? With the families approval of course. It would still keep it in the news.

why is it wrong? Was it wrong to have dateline on the ship? I am sure they paid. I mean this trip came to them at a great cost, they had every right to do what they wanted with the photos. They eliminated the trap as a place where Natalee was, turned over photos showing the evidence, they most certainly did have every right to do what they wanted with the rest.

Yes but when you find evidence or a body it is a diffrent story !

THAT is the whole point.  The entire contents was taken by the Aruban divers and the denim cloth was not sent to FBI for testing.  They only tested for the blouse.  We (or I can) see the material in the bags of evidence.

[johan555]

klaas said

Not exactly.  The photos were forced into the public yesterday, prior to that they had been seen by very few people.  Also, it's my understanding according to Kermit the "laying out" (overlay of Natalee) was done by Kyle.  Maybe Kermit can verifiy that's what they said?


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

But did you post them yesterday  because i post this one Kermit ?

[Keepthefaith]

Personally, I would like to see Kermit and OE come together on this board for the most important reason, Natalee.

Can you comprehend putting all out there for her and stop the courtroom drama. Who cares who did what at this point, let's just bring Natalee home, please?

Can we be honest for the sake of Natalee?

Wouldn't that make your big meal on Thursday taste just a little better?

I offered to allow him to do so. Everyone here saw that.
He is busy emailing other forums with information that is false.
Just like when Red confronted him, he wanted someone to help him "get Red off his back".

I thought of something funny to say, but I better not. Mrs Red might shoot me.

 

I don't see anything funny.
He minced words with Red. They had a disagreement, it was very public, nothing hidden there.
He minced words with many of us through out the trip. He had theories, and sometimes his theories changed. We all did. Why the attack on Kyle. He missed his wife's pregnancy to look for Natalee. He missed Holidays with his family. He worked long hard frustrating hours. He named his daughter after Natalee. He kept us posted, answered all of our questions, took some heat when we disagreed but he has always hung in there for the Monkeys, and for Natalee. So why the attack on him now?

I would be the first to listen to what OE has to say as an outsider looking in.From being on here for the past few days and watching the correspondence OE has chosen so far not to repost at SM.I for one would like kyle to return and give his side to the Monkey's.JMOO.

[Kermit]

sorry. no edit here. ... hit her head ON ROCKS and drowned ...

Yes, and that is what some friend of Paulus who was a clerk in some store on the southeast coast told some guy who was in her checkout line in the early days after natalee disappeared, that she was a former aruban citizen, close friend of the lurch family and that lurch personally had called her and told her that natalee hit her head on some rocks swimming and drowned.

Was their names Dooley? I think they went to the FBI & made a statement.

[WhiskeyGirl]

And why exactly did Joran contact Greta?

I find this the most interesting. Maybe money is drying up. Paulus is no big fish as some say, and while he may have coached his son before, this seemed to be the real Joran, the one with a personality disorder, speaking in codes.

I also think that Hitler story is interesting now. It immediately conjures up and image when you use the word "Hitler."

But so does a perverted Dutch Old man wanting to procure a blond.

Joran did not seem smug to me, but at the end of his rope. He lashed out at all the players, the police, the kalpoe's and the man that got him in this mess, his father.

Remember, he thinks he is a victim.

I'm wondering if he received compensation from somewhere to keep quiet.  Maybe it was a lump sum, or perhaps on an installement basis.  Since he keeps talking (to everyone and his brother), maybe he was cut off.   If he received some kind of lump sum, may he has blown through that prematurely.  

What happened to the villa in Spain?  How much does a villa in Thailand cost?  Party lifestyle?  

Joran seems to live the high life, and it doesn't come from Miller.

From an early National Enquirer article (09-2005) with Kristina, I remember something about him receiving like $26K.   He also reports the book deal.  Later, the family received some compensation from Aruba, which was a reduction from their initial request.  Still later, someone comments (don't remember where) that Joran reports his father has dedicated the rest of his life to filing compensation claims against the government of Aruba.  Maybe all these VDS revenue streams have come to an end.

How much did they get in all?

just my humble opinions

[Keepthefaith]

sorry. no edit here. ... hit her head ON ROCKS and drowned ...

Yes, and that is what some friend of Paulus who was a clerk in some store on the southeast coast told some guy who was in her checkout line in the early days after natalee disappeared, that she was a former aruban citizen, close friend of the lurch family and that lurch personally had called her and told her that natalee hit her head on some rocks swimming and drowned.

Was their names Dooley? I think they went to the FBI & made a statement.

As an outsider concerned with one day knowing the truth.I for one appreciate the continued posting from Kermit.I speak for myself!

[always 1]

Was that blouse fabric easy to come by in Aruba???  Because I shop more than anyone and I have never seen one like it.  Turquoise, with stripes and polka dots???  Anyone.

[Blue Moon]

Was that blouse fabric easy to come by in Aruba???  Because I shop more than anyone and I have never seen one like it.  Turquoise, with stripes and polka dots???  Anyone.

I really don't know if it came from Aruba but Beth was able to get an exact blouse so it could be used by the FBI.

[always 1]

Was that blouse fabric easy to come by in Aruba???  Because I shop more than anyone and I have never seen one like it.  Turquoise, with stripes and polka dots???  Anyone.

I really don't know if it came from Aruba but Beth was able to get an exact blouse so it could be used by the FBI.

Thank you.

[ldstlou]

THIS IS BETHS ANSWER TO MY ASKING FOR PERMISSION TO EXPOSE THE ARUBA COVER-UP
Flag this message
Re: Permission to EXPOSE ARUBA COVER-UP
Monday, September 8, 2008 6:10 PM
From: "Beth
Add sender to Contacts
To: kermit

Sure!
 
All the best to everyone~
 

you're kidding right?

NO. You think I am, um, what would be a good word that you might be thinking, dumb? Stupid? I just don't have the emails or back ups of evidence? PLEASE Idstlou, think about it. I would not have exposed this if I didn't have the evidence.

I still don't see what you are trying to expose. What is the bottom line?

[Kermit]

From Kyle: May 8, 2008: "I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal."

Did you read the email brought over from BFN from OE and can you answer it,as well as bring it and your answer forward??If you care to.Thanx in advance

I did respond to the email at BFN.

BUT in addition to that response there, look at this:

The following events are all recorded on camera during multiple interviews in the following order:
1) Dave Holloway talked to Tim Miller to help him search out at sea for Natalee
2) Tim Miller got together with Louis who has resources and contacts to conduct challenging ocean searches
3) Louis got in touch with John S. who does ocean searches and has the equipment and personnel to do so
4) John contracted Kyle to run the sonar work and over a dozen other good team members to make it all possible (that's a lot of conspirators!)

Not the other way around.

If this was a conspiracy search as Kermit claims, then she is calling Dave Holloway a liar and therefore Dave must be the mastermind behind the conspiracy. Her claims mean that Dave must want this mystical pipeline built that no one has actually ever heard anything about. Perhaps Kermit and others would buy into this nonsense.
 

In KYLES OWN WORDS:
#484 on: March 20, 2008, 05:27:54 PM
First, WOW I haven't heard anything about two ships, or ships of that size being used in the search. I don't know where this information came from.  The Persistence was the right boat for the job.  Let me explain over kill.  Over kill was when we were finished using the capabilities intrinsic to the Persistence.  This includes a geophysical suite, namely side scan sonar, magnetometer, and bathymetric mapping abilities.  Once this portion of the work was complete, we no longer needed these capabilities. The information that came out early on about these tw boats you mentioned... I have not seen... and I was involved in the planning.
There was a re-direct in which ship would be used before the Persistence.  I'm unsure of the boat that was to be used, but it withdrew at the last minute during mobilization if I'm not mistaken.  If memory serves, it was a similar size to the Persistence. I'm sure someone here within minutes of the posting will correct me and post all the information on the boat.  It may have been the Apache.  Not sure.  Either way, the Persistence was just right for the job.  However, it isn't a ROV boat even though we used a small inspection class ROV with it.  It also lacks a dynamic positioning system enabling it to "hover" over a fixed position using bow and stern thrusters.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg367241#msg367241

Break it down into laymen terms for me Kermit??Not understanding what your saying with the RED area???

He said he was hired by John Silvetti to do sonar work.
In his post at SM he said he was the one in charge of planning. Sounds like Kyle is trying to diminish his role now in that email.

He is asserting that any alluding to John Silvetti or Louis Schafer's interest in the oil pipeline is not true.
Although, Kyle said that John went back to Aruba to set up an office so he could do business with South America.

[Tamikosmom]

TWO SHIPS???

Initially Tim Miller led us to believe that there would be two ships search the Aruban waters for Natalee Holloway's remains.

Janet
_____

FOX ONLINE - JAMIE COLBY
July 15, 2007

COLBY:  Tim, why are they (Arubans) standing in your way?

MILLER: I don't think they can stand in our way. With the equipment we got and if we have to go in off of Venezuela. Whereever we need to go into, we've got the equipment. In fact they are more than welcome to be on the ship with us. The ships that we are taking over are a 265 foot ship and a 340 foot ship which have all the latest technology on it. In fact the owner of this company, Louis Shaeffer of Superior Offshore International, Louis called Dave Holloway up about two months ago when I was at Louis' house. He said "Mr Holloway, I'm going to promise you something, if your daughter is in a metal container out there in that water, we are going to bring her home."


DANA PRETZER
June 8, 2007

MILLER:  How can you put a timeline on it but you know with the size of these ships, the technology that we're going over there with, we're optimistic. These ships are actually equipped (inaudible) incredible company that's offering these services and again we're going to be interviewing them next week and it's something we've been wanting to make happen, for somebody to step forward. I've been talking to them since December ....

http://scaredmonkeysradio.com/2007/06/08/the-dana-pretzer-show-friday-june-8th-2007-special-guests-tim-miller-robert-peters-janice-smolinski/


FOX ONLINE - JAMIE COLBY
July 15, 2007

MILLER: ... Gerold Dompig actually told us when Dave and I was over there; that he felt that Natalee was out in the water, that the night the fishermen's hut was broken into, a knife was stolen, a rope was stolen and a large crab trap was stolen.

Gerold Dompig's words were "Natalee was put in that crab trap, they put rocks in it and they took her out 3 to 5 miles and she's 800 to 1,000 feet deep" and we always thought about the water anyhow.

When Dave and I were over there we actually found the boat we truly feel took Natalee out to sea ...

[Kermit]

was this about the same cage ?

Fabric Found in Aruba Crab Trap Not Holloway's
Associated Press
10:59 PM CST, February 26, 2008

An FBI analysis of fabric collected from a crab trap off Aruba showed the material did not match clothing worn by missing American Natalee Holloway, prosecutors said Tuesday.

The fabric was recovered in January by divers in about 90 feet of water as they searched for the body of the missing woman, the Aruban public prosecutor's office said in a statement.

The FBI compared the material to a blouse worn by Holloway, who was 18 when she disappeared on the final night of a high school graduation trip to the Dutch Caribbean island in May 2005. The results "showed that the two materials were not a match," the statement said.

Special Agent Ann Todd, a spokeswoman for the FBI Laboratory in Quantico, Va., said the lab could not comment on the case.

thanks Johan.

So FBI did have access to all the evidence correct?

There were some photos that were kept back to sell to networks, but they took the photos, had the copy right to them, and I just don't see what is wrong with selling some one the photos?

The photos eventually became public, so they weren't trying to keep them a big secret or hide what was in them correct?

So why the big deal if the evidence was collected by ALE and most photos turned over to family and FBI, certainly enough to document what was in the cage, but some were held back to sell?

Laying out a photo of Natalee in the cage, over blurry photos, is not merely complaining that Kyle was trying to profit, in my mind it is making insinuations as to whether Natalee's body was found and that fact covered up and I am telling you all that Jug says no way do they believe that.

Not exactly.  The photos were forced into the public yesterday, prior to that they had been seen by very few people.  Also, it's my understanding according to Kermit the "laying out" (overlay of Natalee) was done by Kyle.  Maybe Kermit can verifiy that's what they said?

Yes that is correct.

[BTgirl]

Was that blouse fabric easy to come by in Aruba???  Because I shop more than anyone and I have never seen one like it.  Turquoise, with stripes and polka dots???  Anyone.

I really don't know if it came from Aruba but Beth was able to get an exact blouse so it could be used by the FBI.

Thank you.

Always, I don't think it was purchased in Aruba. Natalee took it with her on her trip.