Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 - 11/26/08

[Tamikosmom]

Well I am going to be off topic as to what is being discussed at the moment.

As I listened to Joran on Greta last night I could tell that most of what he was saying was lies with a little truth thrown in for affect.  I was also thinking he and Casey Anthony would make a perfect pair. They could live in their own little fantasy world but both would have to sleep with both eyes open out of fear from the other one.JMHO

Sam

You are so right Sam.

Casey and Joran are are such good liars.  They never miss a beat.

If their words had never been exposed as lies ... Tamikosmom would be a believer.

 

Janet

[johan555]

The Telegraaf website today > for the lawyers here 

Gielen's crocu

[Keepthefaith]

Sharon I am not understanding what you are trying to say and why you are writing it in red? She was aware of the photos? Does that mean you believe she thinks there was a conspiracy by Kyle to hide evidence? You think that is what Beth believes?

I have not said anything about what I believe 

I believe you posted that you spoke with Jug and that he and Beth were unaware of the 'pictures'.

All I'm pointing out is that BETH was very aware of the pictures -- per the post from Private Eye. At least the picture with the evidence bag.

Just trying to get at the truth.

Or are you saying we should question Private Eye's post?
.

that is the exact opposite of what I wrote. I was asked many times if I spoke to him about those specific photos and every time I answered YES!!
I said they do not believe information was withheld by members of the Persistance as was implied.

In my own opinion.And it's just that!Those photos would have been put out long ago if they where much ado about nothing.If everyone that needs to be in the know has seen these pictures and hasn't revealed them to this date i believe somthing is ado??Correct me if i'm way off base.Just doesn't make sense.Common sense.

People will believe what they believe. I went to the source and the source said it's much ado about nothing.
I think it is a total disservice to Kyle and all the members of the Persistance who stopped their lives and put their hearts and souls into the search for Natalee. jmho

Just tryin to understand ldstlou!So why not say this was what was in the cage,it's been tested and has absolutely nothing to do with the case of Natalee Holloway,as well as release the pictures that were taken!End of story!Welcome home Persistence and good days work!

[ldstlou]

Hiya Monkeys.
Maybe paulypuss & his dirty old mens club will finally get a bit of comeuppance  

Shango..shango..shango...dancing my way to the bar for a drink to celebrate...oh wait it's only noon.  Oh well, it's five o'clock somewhere.

Cha...cha...cha cha cha!   

you are too funny!! I am eating my 2nd piece of pecan pie..just for you!! lol

[BTgirl]

Hiya Monkeys.
Maybe paulypuss & his dirty old mens club will finally get a bit of comeuppance  

Shango..shango..shango...dancing my way to the bar for a drink to celebrate...oh wait it's only noon.  Oh well, it's five o'clock somewhere.

Cha...cha...cha cha cha!   

Shango, Lorenzo, Shango, Lorenzo, Shango, Lorenzo 

The song that always gets Lalas going. 

[Lala'sMom]

Asia in the spring.  I believe I heard Greta say she had been investigating and getting to this interview for 6 months.  She implied if not said that "we have been investigating for six months," when she was stating that she had called Mohs and asked him to meet her halfway, even come to Florida, do whatever it took to get information to him, but he stated he was going on vacation and she then stated, "we have been investigating this six months..." and he does not have a weekend or a day or time that he can give us after we traveled halfway around the world...or something to that effect (this was last week). 

Sometime last week when Greta first broke this story I think she even mentioned June.  Now, Joran is running in Thailand from the authorities.  Sweat alert on Aruba...and the ALE is about to poop their pants.  It's all good if nothing comes of it...just to know they can't get it off their backs until something is done in the way of justice for Natalee.  Beth is the epitome of the Palin pitbull with lipstick.  It's true "hell hath no fury like a woman's scorn".

[Blonde]

Are you sure that Jug has seen the photos posted yesterday,
and he is not thinking of the photos that Robin posted earlier
this year?

And when did Jug start speaking for Beth again   

Jug and Beth do not fight with each. They are still speaking with each other and if most knew the truth they would be very surprised at what the situation is between them at this very moment.  But to each his on in what you wish to believe.  I an through beating this dead horse...let's talk about the Greta stuff now.

All well and good.

But Beth was aware of the photos.

Apparently Jug was not. 

Now, carry on

Not true.  He recognized them as soon as they were emailed to him.

HOW DO WE KNOW THIS

[Lala'sMom]

The Telegraaf website today > for the lawyers here 

Gielen's crocu

Heck yeah!  How do you think Condi Rice got involved?  Remember what I said about higher than the FBI? Gielen just can't let it go, can she?

[Lala'sMom]

Are you sure that Jug has seen the photos posted yesterday,
and he is not thinking of the photos that Robin posted earlier
this year?

And when did Jug start speaking for Beth again   

Jug and Beth do not fight with each. They are still speaking with each other and if most knew the truth they would be very surprised at what the situation is between them at this very moment.  But to each his on in what you wish to believe.  I an through beating this dead horse...let's talk about the Greta stuff now.

All well and good.

But Beth was aware of the photos.

Apparently Jug was not. 

Now, carry on

Not true.  He recognized them as soon as they were emailed to him.

HOW DO WE KNOW THIS

Because I am the person that sent them to Jug.

[klaasend]

Here's what I'm gathering so far:

1.  Kermit posted some photos of the dive dated January 7, 2008 that most of us had not seen before.  The photos appear to show more/different items in the cage/trap (how did those items get there? zip loc bags)

LDSTLOU - has spoken with Jug and described the new photos.  Jug has told LDSTLOU that he and Beth WERE aware of those photos.


2.  Kermit implied that the crew of the Persistence (Kyle, Silvette, Schaeffer) may have withheld information from the family and the FBI.

LDSTLOU - spoke to Jug and Jug says that neither Beth nor he feel that the crew of the Persistence have withheld any information about what was found in that cage/trap.



LDSTLOU  - does that sound about right to you?

[ldstlou]

Sharon I am not understanding what you are trying to say and why you are writing it in red? She was aware of the photos? Does that mean you believe she thinks there was a conspiracy by Kyle to hide evidence? You think that is what Beth believes?

I have not said anything about what I believe 

I believe you posted that you spoke with Jug and that he and Beth were unaware of the 'pictures'.

All I'm pointing out is that BETH was very aware of the pictures -- per the post from Private Eye. At least the picture with the evidence bag.

Just trying to get at the truth.

Or are you saying we should question Private Eye's post?
.

that is the exact opposite of what I wrote. I was asked many times if I spoke to him about those specific photos and every time I answered YES!!
I said they do not believe information was withheld by members of the Persistance as was implied.

In my own opinion.And it's just that!Those photos would have been put out long ago if they where much ado about nothing.If everyone that needs to be in the know has seen these pictures and hasn't revealed them to this date i believe somthing is ado??Correct me if i'm way off base.Just doesn't make sense.Common sense.

People will believe what they believe. I went to the source and the source said it's much ado about nothing.
I think it is a total disservice to Kyle and all the members of the Persistance who stopped their lives and put their hearts and souls into the search for Natalee. jmho

Just tryin to understand ldstlou!So why not say this was what was in the cage,it's been tested and has absolutely nothing to do with the case of Natalee Holloway,as well as release the pictures that were taken!End of story!Welcome home Persistence and good days work!

I thought Tim Miller did say that. The man was heartbroken for raising Dave's hopes and then dashing them. Dave has talked about it not being Natalee. I just always believed Dave and Tim when they said it wasn't Natalee. I don't know who else said it wasn't Natalee, maybe someone else does, but that certainly was convincing to me. Dateline did a show, and said it wasn't Natalee. I am not good at the archives but did Dave, Tim and Dateline say what if was? I don't remember.
I just know Jug and Beth do not believe there is any conspiracy involved regarding what was found or not found by the Persostance and Jug thought it was absolutely rediculous that it is being said on the boards. That is enough for me.

[Lala'sMom]

Hiya Monkeys.
Maybe paulypuss & his dirty old mens club will finally get a bit of comeuppance  

Shango..shango..shango...dancing my way to the bar for a drink to celebrate...oh wait it's only noon.  Oh well, it's five o'clock somewhere.

Cha...cha...cha cha cha!   

Shango, Lorenzo, Shango, Lorenzo, Shango, Lorenzo 

The song that always gets Lalas going. 

Do you have any idea how much Shango/Simian/Merian is in this latest revelation? 

[Tamikosmom]

IMO, Kermit and Kyle have both always been honest, decent people whose posts were truthful. This says to me that there is some misunderstanding somewhere between the two of them as to what happened regarding the photos.

I wish they could talk with each other and determine what the source of the misunderstanding is. 

I wish Kyle would respond to the accusations which Kermit made about him attempting to sell the most recently revealed photos prior to sharing them with the FBI or Natalee's family.

From the getgo ... I felt that Kyle's posts implied that he was being deceived by the Arubans into believing that their objective in cooperating with the search effort for Natalee's remains was all about justice for an eighteen year old American citizen.  However ... I never doubted that Kyle's motives were sincere.

Actually ... I have always trusted Kermit's motivations.

This happenings of the past couple of days regarding this topic is so troubling.

Janet

[ldstlou]

Here's what I'm gathering so far:

1.  Kermit posted some photos of the dive dated January 7, 2008 that most of us had not seen before.  The photos appear to show more/different items in the cage/trap (how did those items get there? zip loc bags)

LDSTLOU - has spoken with Jug and described the new photos.  Jug has told LDSTLOU that he and Beth WERE aware of those photos.


2.  Kermit implied that the crew of the Persistence (Kyle, Silvette, Schaeffer) may have withheld information from the family and the FBI.

LDSTLOU - spoke to Jug and Jug says that neither Beth nor he feel that the crew of the Persistence have withheld any information about what was found in that cage/trap.



LDSTLOU  - does that sound about right to you?

yes.

[Blonde]

Are you sure that Jug has seen the photos posted yesterday,
and he is not thinking of the photos that Robin posted earlier
this year?

And when did Jug start speaking for Beth again   

Jug and Beth do not fight with each. They are still speaking with each other and if most knew the truth they would be very surprised at what the situation is between them at this very moment.  But to each his on in what you wish to believe.  I an through beating this dead horse...let's talk about the Greta stuff now.

All well and good.

But Beth was aware of the photos.

Apparently Jug was not. 

Now, carry on

Not true.  He recognized them as soon as they were emailed to him.

HOW DO WE KNOW THIS

Sorry caps lock was on.
He recognized them as soon as they were emailed to him.
Why are we getting two diffrent  Stories now help
 Did they see these pictures before or not. 

[cherjers]

Brought over from the previous thread:

Betcha he's reading here. Joran, you're a moron.

Joran we have perfect girl for you--her name is Casey-you to would be perfect together-

[Lala'sMom]

Did we ever find out the name of the teacher Greta was talking about?  Is it the music teacher at ISA or someone else? 

[johan555]

The Telegraaf website today > for the lawyers here 

Gielen's crocu

Heck yeah!  How do you think Condi Rice got involved?  Remember what I said about higher than the FBI? Gielen just can't let it go, can she?

Gielen is on Aruba's en the vd Sloots payroll 

[BTgirl]

Hiya Monkeys.
Maybe paulypuss & his dirty old mens club will finally get a bit of comeuppance  

Shango..shango..shango...dancing my way to the bar for a drink to celebrate...oh wait it's only noon.  Oh well, it's five o'clock somewhere.

Cha...cha...cha cha cha!   

Shango, Lorenzo, Shango, Lorenzo, Shango, Lorenzo 

The song that always gets Lalas going. 

Do you have any idea how much Shango/Simian/Merian is in this latest revelation? 

Not totally, but if you'll post it, I promise I'll read it.

[Blonde]

IMO, Kermit and Kyle have both always been honest, decent people whose posts were truthful. This says to me that there is some misunderstanding somewhere between the two of them as to what happened regarding the photos.

I wish they could talk with each other and determine what the source of the misunderstanding is. 

I wish Kyle would respond to the accusations which Kermit made about him attempting to sell the most recently revealed photos prior to sharing them with the FBI or Natalee's family.

From the getgo ... I felt that Kyle's posts implied that he was being deceived by the Arubans into believing that their objective in cooperating with the search effort for Natalee's remains was all about justice for an eighteen year old American citizen.  However ... I never doubted that Kyle's motives were sincere.

Actually ... I have always trusted Kermit's motivations.

This happenings of the past couple of days regarding this topic is so troubling.

Janet

I just got this in an email from BFN i don't have a link.

Email from Oceanexploration:

Good morning Debbie,

If you can, could you put out this gentle reminder of the order of events surrounding the Persistence search? I think it would help debunk some theories and remind people of the order of events and facts and that we weren't part of some grand conspiracy for some pipeline as whoever claims. Thanks!

The following events are all recorded on camera during multiple interviews in the following order:
1) Dave Holloway talked to Tim Miller to help him search out at sea for Natalee
2) Tim Miller got together with Louis who has resources and contacts to conduct challenging ocean searches
3) Louis got in touch with John S. who does ocean searches and has the equipment and personnel to do so
4) John contracted Kyle to run the sonar work and over a dozen other good team members to make it all possible (that's a lot of conspirators!)

Not the other way around.

If this was a conspiracy search as Kermit claims, then she is calling Dave Holloway a liar and therefore Dave must be the mastermind behind the conspiracy. Her claims mean that Dave must want this mystical pipeline built that no one has actually ever heard anything about. Perhaps Kermit and others would buy into this nonsense.

Let's elaborate on this:

-If any company wanted a pipeline built, they would first get approval to construct such a project, which is public information. None exists to my knowledge. Pipeline construction goes on every day around the world and it is not some covert operation. It's like building a bridge.

-If an Aruban or Venezuelan company got approval to build such mystical pipeline, then the owner of said proposed pipeline would have sent out a request for proposals (RFP) for multiple companies to bid on the construction. None exist to my knowledge.

-Let's say said pipeline contract got awarded to a survey company such as J. Silvetti's Marine Surveys. Silvetti's company would proceed with a pipeline route survey, not a grid search! Pipeline route surveys are designed to provide information to pipeline engineers on how to lay the pipe. This requires survey data to be aligned along a proposed route corridor from the start of the pipeline to the end. Also, this requires information about sediment types and shallow subbottom profiling. No sediment sampling or subbottom profiling equipment was on board the Persistence during the Holloway search.

-Pipelines go from point A to point B. As Kermit claims, said mystical pipeline is(?)/will(?) run from Aruba to Venezuela. If true, then the pipeline route survey would also go from Aruba to Venezuela. More specifically, it would go from where the pipeline came to shore on land, which in this case would be near the refinery. The Persistence never went near Venezuelan waters or near the refinery.

-Unfortunately for Kermit, she doesn't know because she wasn't involved with this search or case in any capacity, but the search for Natalee wasn't conducted anywhere near any energy facility where such a pipeline would come to shore. It was conducted offshore the High-rise hotels - which is certainly NOT a likely spot for a pipeline or approved oil exploration for obvious reasons - Aruba survives on tourism and this is where it's centered. Further, the survey was conducted in a tight polygonal grid pattern, which anyone who has ever conducted ocean searches before knows is designed to find a discrete object within a given area within the time budget you have allowed. In this case, a container possibly containing the remains or evidence of a lost American girl was the object of the search.

- I think the reason people have a hard time accepting all this is simple. It shows that good people (even business people and people with money and energy ties) still go out of their way to help others in times of need. Generally, it is the people who don't have a good bone in their body that have the hardest time understanding this concept of selflessness and giving. It just simply isn't what they would do.

- As for the allegations of a search effort cover up, it's true. Not all that went on during the search effort was posted on the Internet or broadcasted on TV. This is a very good thing. Let's remember this is a murder investigation. How many murder investigations have we heard of in history where you know every move made by the investigators? Does the public get to see the evidence sprawled out on the sidewalk? The answer is simply "No". Doing so hinders and may compromise the investigation. Further, the less the suspects or perpetrators know prior to their arrest, the better. It gives them time to plan, cover their tracks, make up convincing stories, run, etc.

- Emotion with time is savage to human reason. Let's not let our emotions interfere with what we know to be true. Keep what is provable and factual in the order which it occurred and view it in it's proper context.

- Don't ignore facts which do not align with a convincing theory. If that which is provable does not fit in with a theory, do not change the facts, rework the theory.


I apologize to those who are able to understand these simple truths. This message wasn't for you. This has been a very difficult case which is made harder by the flow of misinformation and time.

My thoughts and prayers go out to the Holloway family and all those who have poured out their hearts, effort, and time into this case over the past few years genuinely seeking the truth. May God bless you all and bring a peace that surpasses all understanding. Happy Thanksgiving.