Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 - 11/26/08

[Keepthefaith]

I don't care what the reason is, if Kyle was trying to sell photos for money that is wrong! Anybody making money off this tragedy for any reason is wrong!

Why not give them to PDV or any other network for free? With the families approval of course. It would still keep it in the news.

My question is.Why would you buy any photos if they had nothing to do with Natalee's case!I wouldn't if i was a TV Executive.Maybe that's why i'm not.LOL!!

[Altruist]

thanks Johan.

So FBI did have access to all the evidence correct?

There were some photos that were kept back to sell to networks, but they took the photos, had the copy right to them, and I just don't see what is wrong with selling some one the photos?

The photos eventually became public, so they weren't trying to keep them a big secret or hide what was in them correct?

So why the big deal if the evidence was collected by ALE and most photos turned over to family and FBI, certainly enough to document what was in the cage, but some were held back to sell?

Laying out a photo of Natalee in the cage, over blurry photos, is not merely complaining that Kyle was trying to profit, in my mind it is making insinuations as to whether Natalee's body was found and that fact covered up and I am telling you all that Jug says no way do they believe that.

So any evidence collected Jug, Beth & Dave, Robin have full faith & belief that the OM/ALE forwarded samples of all collected, shared with FBI & that the analysis is correct????????

[Patriot]

was this about the same cage ?

Fabric Found in Aruba Crab Trap Not Holloway's
Associated Press
10:59 PM CST, February 26, 2008

An FBI analysis of fabric collected from a crab trap off Aruba showed the material did not match clothing worn by missing American Natalee Holloway, prosecutors said Tuesday.

The fabric was recovered in January by divers in about 90 feet of water as they searched for the body of the missing woman, the Aruban public prosecutor's office said in a statement.

The FBI compared the material to a blouse worn by Holloway, who was 18 when she disappeared on the final night of a high school graduation trip to the Dutch Caribbean island in May 2005. The results "showed that the two materials were not a match," the statement said.

Special Agent Ann Todd, a spokeswoman for the FBI Laboratory in Quantico, Va., said the lab could not comment on the case.

thanks Johan.

So FBI did have access to all the evidence correct?

There were some photos that were kept back to sell to networks, but they took the photos, had the copy right to them, and I just don't see what is wrong with selling some one the photos?

The photos eventually became public, so they weren't trying to keep them a big secret or hide what was in them correct?

So why the big deal if the evidence was collected by ALE and most photos turned over to family and FBI, certainly enough to document what was in the cage, but some were held back to sell?

Laying out a photo of Natalee in the cage, over blurry photos, is not merely complaining that Kyle was trying to profit, in my mind it is making insinuations as to whether Natalee's body was found and that fact covered up and I am telling you all that Jug says no way do they believe that.

Are you serious? You don't see anything wrong with selling these photos?

[Blue Moon]

was this about the same cage ?

Fabric Found in Aruba Crab Trap Not Holloway's
Associated Press
10:59 PM CST, February 26, 2008

An FBI analysis of fabric collected from a crab trap off Aruba showed the material did not match clothing worn by missing American Natalee Holloway, prosecutors said Tuesday.

The fabric was recovered in January by divers in about 90 feet of water as they searched for the body of the missing woman, the Aruban public prosecutor's office said in a statement.

The FBI compared the material to a blouse worn by Holloway, who was 18 when she disappeared on the final night of a high school graduation trip to the Dutch Caribbean island in May 2005. The results "showed that the two materials were not a match," the statement said.

Special Agent Ann Todd, a spokeswoman for the FBI Laboratory in Quantico, Va., said the lab could not comment on the case.

I don't know where the Associated Press got their statement but if you notice the FBI refused to comment.  So who knows.

[Blue Moon]

sorry. no edit here. ... hit her head ON ROCKS and drowned ...

I think the first reports were probably as near the truth as you will get out of Joran.  It was either hit her head on the rocks (running from them-mo) or she was hit with a bat as stated by VietVet.

[Kermit]

From Kyle: May 8, 2008: "I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal."

Did you read the email brought over from BFN from OE and can you answer it,as well as bring it and your answer forward??If you care to.Thanx in advance

I did respond to the email at BFN.

BUT in addition to that response there, look at this:

The following events are all recorded on camera during multiple interviews in the following order:
1) Dave Holloway talked to Tim Miller to help him search out at sea for Natalee
2) Tim Miller got together with Louis who has resources and contacts to conduct challenging ocean searches
3) Louis got in touch with John S. who does ocean searches and has the equipment and personnel to do so
4) John contracted Kyle to run the sonar work and over a dozen other good team members to make it all possible (that's a lot of conspirators!)

Not the other way around.

If this was a conspiracy search as Kermit claims, then she is calling Dave Holloway a liar and therefore Dave must be the mastermind behind the conspiracy. Her claims mean that Dave must want this mystical pipeline built that no one has actually ever heard anything about. Perhaps Kermit and others would buy into this nonsense.
 

In KYLES OWN WORDS:
#484 on: March 20, 2008, 05:27:54 PM
First, WOW I haven't heard anything about two ships, or ships of that size being used in the search. I don't know where this information came from.  The Persistence was the right boat for the job.  Let me explain over kill.  Over kill was when we were finished using the capabilities intrinsic to the Persistence.  This includes a geophysical suite, namely side scan sonar, magnetometer, and bathymetric mapping abilities.  Once this portion of the work was complete, we no longer needed these capabilities. The information that came out early on about these tw boats you mentioned... I have not seen... and I was involved in the planning.
There was a re-direct in which ship would be used before the Persistence.  I'm unsure of the boat that was to be used, but it withdrew at the last minute during mobilization if I'm not mistaken.  If memory serves, it was a similar size to the Persistence. I'm sure someone here within minutes of the posting will correct me and post all the information on the boat.  It may have been the Apache.  Not sure.  Either way, the Persistence was just right for the job.  However, it isn't a ROV boat even though we used a small inspection class ROV with it.  It also lacks a dynamic positioning system enabling it to "hover" over a fixed position using bow and stern thrusters.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg367241#msg367241

[Scandi]

Hi,

Something is screwy with that FBI report IMO.

Natalee was wearing a denim skirt, not a denim blouse.  Her blouse was that cotton multi-colored affair.

Of course the article doesn't say it was denim they tested.  Where did that come from?

Remember there was that piece of fabric found that looked exactly like her blouse fabric.  Maybe this is creative journalism as they don't want to let out anything pertinent to the public.

[johan555]

was this about the same cage ?

Fabric Found in Aruba Crab Trap Not Holloway's
Associated Press
10:59 PM CST, February 26, 2008

An FBI analysis of fabric collected from a crab trap off Aruba showed the material did not match clothing worn by missing American Natalee Holloway, prosecutors said Tuesday.

The fabric was recovered in January by divers in about 90 feet of water as they searched for the body of the missing woman, the Aruban public prosecutor's office said in a statement.

The FBI compared the material to a blouse worn by Holloway, who was 18 when she disappeared on the final night of a high school graduation trip to the Dutch Caribbean island in May 2005. The results "showed that the two materials were not a match," the statement said.

Special Agent Ann Todd, a spokeswoman for the FBI Laboratory in Quantico, Va., said the lab could not comment on the case.

thanks Johan.

So FBI did have access to all the evidence correct?

There were some photos that were kept back to sell to networks, but they took the photos, had the copy right to them, and I just don't see what is wrong with selling some one the photos?

The photos eventually became public, so they weren't trying to keep them a big secret or hide what was in them correct?

So why the big deal if the evidence was collected by ALE and most photos turned over to family and FBI, certainly enough to document what was in the cage, but some were held back to sell?

Laying out a photo of Natalee in the cage, over blurry photos, is not merely complaining that Kyle was trying to profit, in my mind it is making insinuations as to whether Natalee's body was found and that fact covered up and I am telling you all that Jug says no way do they believe that.

but the same pics were here on SM on  February 27, 2008 by Scared Monkeys ( but smaller)

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2008/02/27/natalee-holloway-tim-miller-of-texas-equusearch-discusses-crab-trap-clothing-and-dna-found-in-waters-of-aruba/








and i blow this one up a bit

[Kermit]

From Kyle: May 8, 2008: "I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal."

I believe the frog.

Thank you Magnolia. I know you had a hard time before. And understandably.

[vms]

vms

I think your picture also looks like the guy in the first pic of Joran in Thailand.

Do you have a pic of Olindo Koolman (looks like Silvetti)?

Got to go out awhile.

Hi Buckeye,

I think bastibro posted the Thailand pic for me the other day. I'll try to look for it again.

There is a huge pic of a painting of Koolman here: http://www.gustavenouel.com/GovernorKoolman.html

[ldstlou]

I don't care what the reason is, if Kyle was trying to sell photos for money that is wrong! Anybody making money off this tragedy for any reason is wrong!

Why not give them to PDV or any other network for free? With the families approval of course. It would still keep it in the news.

why is it wrong? Was it wrong to have dateline on the ship? I am sure they paid. I mean this trip came to them at a great cost, they had every right to do what they wanted with the photos. They eliminated the trap as a place where Natalee was, turned over photos showing the evidence, they most certainly did have every right to do what they wanted with the rest.

[blah]

From Kyle: May 8, 2008: "I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal."

I believe the frog.

How can you not???

PLEASE someone explain this  to me???!!!
Kyle kept some pics and was going to sell them? Is that the point? What is the point? I want it in black and white, what is the point?

Is the point Natalee's body was recovered from that cage, and either was hidden from the family or the family knows and is not telling? Is that the bottom line? If not, who cares what Kyle did with some photos. If it is the point, then Kermit, take THAT point to Beth like I did to Jug and then show me the e-mail where she agrees.

I want to see the e-mail that says Beth believes Natalee was in that cage and recovered!!! That is what I took to Jug and Jug said NO WAY does he and Beth believe that.

State your point? If it's that Kyle tried to sell some pictures, who cares?

I really dont get what the BFD is.  I cant believe the way OceanExplorer was treated.

[johan555]

Hi,

Something is screwy with that FBI report IMO.

Natalee was wearing a denim skirt, not a denim blouse.  Her blouse was that cotton multi-colored affair.

Of course the article doesn't say it was denim they tested.  Where did that come from?

Remember there was that piece of fabric found that looked exactly like her blouse fabric.  Maybe this is creative journalism as they don't want to let out anything pertinent to the public.

there was not only  a denim skirt in that cage 

[Keepthefaith]

From Kyle: May 8, 2008: "I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal."

Did you read the email brought over from BFN from OE and can you answer it,as well as bring it and your answer forward??If you care to.Thanx in advance

I did respond to the email at BFN.

BUT in addition to that response there, look at this:

The following events are all recorded on camera during multiple interviews in the following order:
1) Dave Holloway talked to Tim Miller to help him search out at sea for Natalee
2) Tim Miller got together with Louis who has resources and contacts to conduct challenging ocean searches
3) Louis got in touch with John S. who does ocean searches and has the equipment and personnel to do so
4) John contracted Kyle to run the sonar work and over a dozen other good team members to make it all possible (that's a lot of conspirators!)

Not the other way around.

If this was a conspiracy search as Kermit claims, then she is calling Dave Holloway a liar and therefore Dave must be the mastermind behind the conspiracy. Her claims mean that Dave must want this mystical pipeline built that no one has actually ever heard anything about. Perhaps Kermit and others would buy into this nonsense.
 

In KYLES OWN WORDS:
#484 on: March 20, 2008, 05:27:54 PM
First, WOW I haven't heard anything about two ships, or ships of that size being used in the search. I don't know where this information came from.  The Persistence was the right boat for the job.  Let me explain over kill.  Over kill was when we were finished using the capabilities intrinsic to the Persistence.  This includes a geophysical suite, namely side scan sonar, magnetometer, and bathymetric mapping abilities.  Once this portion of the work was complete, we no longer needed these capabilities. The information that came out early on about these tw boats you mentioned... I have not seen... and I was involved in the planning.
There was a re-direct in which ship would be used before the Persistence.  I'm unsure of the boat that was to be used, but it withdrew at the last minute during mobilization if I'm not mistaken.  If memory serves, it was a similar size to the Persistence. I'm sure someone here within minutes of the posting will correct me and post all the information on the boat.  It may have been the Apache.  Not sure.  Either way, the Persistence was just right for the job.  However, it isn't a ROV boat even though we used a small inspection class ROV with it.  It also lacks a dynamic positioning system enabling it to "hover" over a fixed position using bow and stern thrusters.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg367241#msg367241

Break it down into laymen terms for me Kermit??Not understanding what your saying with the RED area???

[Kermit]

Are you sure that Jug has seen the photos posted yesterday,
and he is not thinking of the photos that Robin posted earlier
this year?

And when did Jug start speaking for Beth again   

Jug and Beth do not fight with each. They are still speaking with each other and if most knew the truth they would be very surprised at what the situation is between them at this very moment.  But to each his on in what you wish to believe.  I an through beating this dead horse...let's talk about the Greta stuff now.

All well and good.

But Beth was aware of the photos.

Apparently Jug was not. 

Now, carry on

Sharon I am not understanding what you are trying to say and why you are writing it in red? She was aware of the photos? Does that mean you believe she thinks there was a conspiracy by Kyle to hide evidence? You think that is what Beth believes?

Flag this message
email received
Thursday, July 17, 2008 1:46 PM
From:
"beth (I have edited her email)
To:
kermit ( I have edited my email)

NOTE the date and the response is "EMAILED RECEIVED", Please do no doubt I have the correspondence



Idstlou,
If Beth chose to not share the information with Jug, it's not my call. It is hers.
She HAS the pictures and information. These photos were NOT given to her or Dave by the Persistence crew/owner or FBI.

IF Jug would like to speak to me, please feel free to have him contact me.
I have ALL the documents and Proof of what I have posted as well as ALL of Kyles statements to me. I am more then happy to let Jug see them.
Beth has some of them already through myself as well as through private eye.
 
THIS IS BETHS ANSWER TO MY ASKING FOR PERMISSION TO EXPOSE THE ARUBA COVER-UP
Flag this message
Re: Permission to EXPOSE ARUBA COVER-UP
Monday, September 8, 2008 6:10 PM
From: "Beth
Add sender to Contacts
To: kermit

Sure!
 
All the best to everyone~




CORRESPONDENCE WITH KYLE ABOUT RED
From Kyle: march 18, 2008:
If you want, you can get Red from SM off my back. I really don't like that guy. He thinks he knows what's going on but doesn't have a clue. I first saw the pics on the SM home page and fired off an email to Red believing that he would be understanding and help provide answers. I quickly found out what happened on my own and dealt with it. I could not believe his response.
~Kyle

DID KYLE TURN OVER EVERYTHING TO THE FBI?
From Kyle: I have not given anything to the FBI since the pictures and statements from Dec 29th

From Kyle: None of us gave any statements to the authorities after the 29th. It's possible John Silvetti did, because he was the only one conversing with them after Jan 7th. I[/b]


KYLE RETURNED TO THE U.S. AND TRIED TO SELL THE PHOTOS THAT WERE POSTED HERE YESTERDAY
From Kyle: May 8, 2008: "I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal."[/b]


As I stated before, if Jug wants to contact me and wants to have the copies of what I know, PLEASE tell him to do so. I would be VERY HAPPY LIL FROG TO DO SO

ribbit

Very interesting!Thanx again Kermit!

Kermit, I still don't get your point and there is nothing new to pass on to Jug.

Once again...what I spoke to Jug about was: there is a reporter from California who is saying that photos there is a sort of "conspiracy" with members of the Persistence and she believes there was information and evidence gathered that has been with held from the family.

You say Beth saw them...I certainly believe that Beth saw them-no argument.

I believe the inferences are that members of the Persistence have evidence, including Natalee's body, and it was kept from the family or that the family knows and don't want to tell at the moment. That is the part that is in my mind absolutely rediculous and Jug confirmed. I don't know what the rest of the mumbo jumbo proves?
What is the point if there are photos Kyle kept???!! That means conspiracy?? thats just crazy to me. Sounds like renho baloney to me.

I have no idea why you would say "a reporter from California". If you are implying that is me, you are misinformed by your sources. You are also mis-informed about my not having contacted Beth.

Perhaps someone here can explain the importance of the evidence not being turned over to the FBI, the crew trying to "strike deals" to sell the photos, ONLY Aruban divers obtaining the evidence on Jan. 7th better then I can. 


Ask Jug to contact me through Klassend.

[Kermit]

From Kyle: May 8, 2008: "I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal."

 

This is all so troubling.

Janet
______

Quote from: Kermit on November 24, 2008, 06:11:09 PM

Kyle sent those 6 pictures to the FBI, Dave asked him for them. He didn't give them to him. The FBI did, then Robin posted them on her webiste and then Kyle accused Red of posting them on SM and they had an argument.

1 - Shaefer sold the rights to these images for BIG BUCKS
 
2 - Kyle tried to sell the rights to those images to major US networks in Feb 2008
 
3 - John Silvetti had plans to open an office on Aruba this past spring.
 
4 - John Silvetti  discounted anything and everything about that fish trap - before anyone even dove on it.
 
5 - Louis Shaefer reorganized his company in JANUARY 2008 - coincidental timing?  Doubtful.
 
6 - Kyle wanted help to get this info to Beth and to the public.  Then he stalled, lied, threatened, to stop that from happening.
 
7 - This information was sent to:  Beth, JQK and the FBI by NO ONE connected to the Persistence search.  EVER.
 
THEY ALL KEPT THIS INFORMATION FROM NATALEE'S FAMILY, AND FROM THE FBI
 
WHY?

YES they did and they were trying to sell the photos.
In addition, Louis Schafer has made a deal for a documentary for money.
Is it right or wrong, you be the judge.

[johan555]

I don't care what the reason is, if Kyle was trying to sell photos for money that is wrong! Anybody making money off this tragedy for any reason is wrong!

Why not give them to PDV or any other network for free? With the families approval of course. It would still keep it in the news.

why is it wrong? Was it wrong to have dateline on the ship? I am sure they paid. I mean this trip came to them at a great cost, they had every right to do what they wanted with the photos. They eliminated the trap as a place where Natalee was, turned over photos showing the evidence, they most certainly did have every right to do what they wanted with the rest.

Yes but when you find evidence or a body it is a diffrent story !

[klaasend]

was this about the same cage ?

Fabric Found in Aruba Crab Trap Not Holloway's
Associated Press
10:59 PM CST, February 26, 2008

An FBI analysis of fabric collected from a crab trap off Aruba showed the material did not match clothing worn by missing American Natalee Holloway, prosecutors said Tuesday.

The fabric was recovered in January by divers in about 90 feet of water as they searched for the body of the missing woman, the Aruban public prosecutor's office said in a statement.

The FBI compared the material to a blouse worn by Holloway, who was 18 when she disappeared on the final night of a high school graduation trip to the Dutch Caribbean island in May 2005. The results "showed that the two materials were not a match," the statement said.

Special Agent Ann Todd, a spokeswoman for the FBI Laboratory in Quantico, Va., said the lab could not comment on the case.

thanks Johan.

So FBI did have access to all the evidence correct?

There were some photos that were kept back to sell to networks, but they took the photos, had the copy right to them, and I just don't see what is wrong with selling some one the photos?

The photos eventually became public, so they weren't trying to keep them a big secret or hide what was in them correct?

So why the big deal if the evidence was collected by ALE and most photos turned over to family and FBI, certainly enough to document what was in the cage, but some were held back to sell?

Laying out a photo of Natalee in the cage, over blurry photos, is not merely complaining that Kyle was trying to profit, in my mind it is making insinuations as to whether Natalee's body was found and that fact covered up and I am telling you all that Jug says no way do they believe that.

Not exactly.  The photos were forced into the public yesterday, prior to that they had been seen by very few people.  Also, it's my understanding according to Kermit the "laying out" (overlay of Natalee) was done by Kyle.  Maybe Kermit can verifiy that's what they said?

[Ree]

I don't care what the reason is, if Kyle was trying to sell photos for money that is wrong! Anybody making money off this tragedy for any reason is wrong!

Why not give them to PDV or any other network for free? With the families approval of course. It would still keep it in the news.

why is it wrong? Was it wrong to have dateline on the ship? I am sure they paid. I mean this trip came to them at a great cost, they had every right to do what they wanted with the photos. They eliminated the trap as a place where Natalee was, turned over photos showing the evidence, they most certainly did have every right to do what they wanted with the rest.

Nobody on that ship had the ability to eliminate the trap as possible evidence related to Natalee until after the forensics were done.  Therefore everything they had (photos)should have been turned over to LE.  I see no reason they couldn't seel them, provided they made LE aware of them first.  I believe that is the issue.  Those photos are somewhat different than what we saw and the accusation is that they were not given to LE.

[Kermit]

Personally, I would like to see Kermit and OE come together on this board for the most important reason, Natalee.

Can you comprehend putting all out there for her and stop the courtroom drama. Who cares who did what at this point, let's just bring Natalee home, please?

Can we be honest for the sake of Natalee?

Wouldn't that make your big meal on Thursday taste just a little better?

I offered to allow him to do so. Everyone here saw that.
He is busy emailing other forums with information that is false.
Just like when Red confronted him, he wanted someone to help him "get Red off his back".

I thought of something funny to say, but I better not. Mrs Red might shoot me.