Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08

Fallout from Joran van der Sloot's 'On the Record' Interview

Wednesday, November 26, 2008

This is a rush transcript from "On the Record ," November 25, 2008. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, FOX NEWS HOST: You heard Joran van der Sloot say on tape that he sold Natalee Holloway and that he told his father about it. Now, according to Joran, there is a recording of Joran and his father talking about it. Now, we have that recording. You will hear that recording shortly.

But first, what did Joran's father, Paulus, say? Did Joran really tell his father about this? We contacted Paulus van der Sloot multiple times, but he would not respond. We went down to Aruba with former prosecutor Jim Hammer to confront Paulus van der Sloot with this new information. We approached Paulus at his office, asking him to react to what Joran told us. How did Paulus react?

Jim Hammer joins us live. All right, Jim, what happened?

JIM HAMMER, FORMER ASSISTANT SAN FRANCISCO DA: Well, Greta, first of all finding Paulus is not the easiest thing. There was a lot of staking out that happens, and that tends to be just like watching the clock pass by. We went by his house, went by his office. Finally, after staking his office out one morning, there he came. I ran out to the front of his office and confronted him there. And he wanted to slip away right way, but then I said, I've got some tapes here. Joran says he's been talking to you about Natalee Holloway. That got him stopped him in his tracks, Greta.
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At that point -- and they can see it in the tape there -- I hold the transcript of the actual recordings up to him and I start reading to him. They say -- he says, "But if I come forward" -- this is Joran -- "I can end all of this." His father's listening at that point. And then his father says this. And I'll tell you, to this day, it really troubles me. His father says, "But what you've done is pretty bad. Human trafficking is a serious crime."

I mean, I'm still left with shivers when I hear that. He read it along with me, asked for a copy of it, walked to his office. And I said, you know, Will you help us? Joran says that she still could be alive. At that point, he went in. I knocked on the door for a bit longer. When he came out, I said, Listen, Joran says she may still be alive. Will you help us find her? And he closed the door on my face.

VAN SUSTEREN: How was his English? Because one of the things is that, you know, we've had a hard time communicating with him. He says he can't speak English. Did you have a hard time speaking with him?

HAMMER: He spoke fine English. And again, if he had any problems speaking English, he wouldn't have been reading the transcript along with me. And I read him piece by piece, the part where he says, "Human trafficking is a serious crime," where Joran says, "You know, I could be -- let go of this whole thing if they find her alive." He paid very close attention to what I was saying, and in perfect English said, May I have a copy of that, please?

At that point, I said, I want to talk to you more about it and he went into his office. Not one time, Greta, did he have any problem understanding what we were talking about.

VAN SUSTEREN: Did he deny that he had spoken to his son and that that was a transcript of a conversation?

HAMMER: Not once. And again, it strikes me that if this were a complete fabrication or a complete off (ph), he had an opportunity to say, That's ridiculous, that never happened. He read along with me with very rapt attention, and I can't read his mind, but seemed somewhat startled by this whole thing and very intent on what I was showing him that day.

VAN SUSTEREN: Did he act confused at all, like he didn't understand what you were showing him?

HAMMER: Not once, never asked me to repeat it. He didn't interrupt me. I read these key passages to him. And again, he read along with me, Greta, as though he could understand exactly what was happening, and then in perfect English said, May I have a copy of that? I handed it him and then started to follow him in. But again, no sense whatsoever, Greta, that he -- he either disagreed with this and/or didn't understand what I was talking with him about.

VAN SUSTEREN: Did you get the copy back?

HAMMER: I didn't. I did after he made a photocopy inside the office. I left him the number where we were staying. I asked him to please call. We also talked to his law partner, who I think has represented the Kalpoe brothers, again, trying to get some verification a number of times. And polite secretaries but no phone call back.

VAN SUSTEREN: Jim, thank you. And always nice to see you.

HAMMER: Thanks, Greta. You, too.

VAN SUSTEREN: Coming up: Will this new development push the Aruban authorities into action? John Q. Kelly, the lawyer for Natalee's parents, joins us live. And later, you'll hear from Natalee's mother.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VAN SUSTEREN: More than three years after Natalee Holloway vanished on the island of Aruba, Joran Van Der Sloot has come forward to tell us that he sold Natalee Holloway for a bag full of cash to a mystery man on the beach. Then he contacted me to say it was all a lie.

John Q. Kelly, the lawyer for Natalee's parents, joins us live. John, just in talking to Jim Hammer, just as an aside, it occurred to me that assuming this conversation with his father was legitimate -- and we heard what John -- what Jim said about it -- this occurred in January of '08 that they're talking about trafficking. We did our interview about six months later in June, and he's talking about human trafficking. So there's a sense that that somehow -- you know, at least it's not a new story in June, if it's a lie.

Anyway, what's your thought on all this?

JOHN Q. KELLY, ATTORNEY FOR NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S PARENTS: You know, the most logical explanation of how Natalee could disappear, absolutely vanish into air within a half hour of being dropped off at the beach with Joran is consistent with what he said. And all the other evidence points towards it, too, that she was led down to the fisherman's hut, she was led to the shore, you know, alive, well, and led onto a small sports utility vehicle, and you know, very willingly got on board and before she knew what was happening and Joran didn't get on board, you know, the boat took off and she was subdued eventually.

VAN SUSTEREN: Now, there is absolutely no forensic evidence of a homicide, and I mean, which is unusual...

KELLY: Right.

VAN SUSTEREN: ... Not necessarily dispositive of what happened. But that's -- I mean, for someone who's inexperienced to commit a murder and not leave a hair, a blood, or anything anyplace is extremely significant. Now, let me ask you this.

KELLY: Sure.

VAN SUSTEREN: Has the prosecutor followed up on everything? Because it's the prosecutor's job to prove or disprove. And I've got a real beef with this prosecutor. He won't look at this tape. But has he satisfied you that he's chased down every lead?

KELLY: Well, not at all, Greta. I mean, there are really simple things. I mean, there was the big issue about where are Joran's size 14 Swiss K shoes? I mean, if he led her down to the beach and she and Natalee -- he and Natalee were carrying their shoes, he would have helped her on, she'd put her sandals on, and if he just threw on his shoes but instead of getting on just pushed the boat off, you know, his shoes would be gone with Natalee and her sandals.

I mean, there have been all kinds of things. There are phone logs there. I've asked for the surveillance tapes from the casinos. I haven't gotten them. I've asked him to review them. He hasn't gotten back to me on those. I've asked for phone records. I haven't gotten those. I've asked for backup on witness interviews. I haven't gotten those.

And Greta, it's just -- it's almost too simple, when you step back and look at it, what probably happened that night. It's really scary.

VAN SUSTEREN: All right, now, I would -- if I were the prosecutor, I'd want to look at wire transfers, both the ones -- we have a number of a wire transfer that he should investigate from January, but even to see whether or not -- Joran says there was a payoff of some police -- whether or not there was cash drawn down from Paulus van der Sloot's account. I'd get a subpoena on that. I'd get a subpoena on all his relatives to see if any money was (INAUDIBLE)

KELLY: Sure.

VAN SUSTEREN: Anything to sort of piece together to see whether or not this is true or not, the surveillance video -- what surveillance video do you want him to look at?

KELLY: Well, for starters, if you recall -- and it was sort of pushed aside by the law enforcement also, when Joran is sitting in the Excelsior casino with Natalee and her friends, there's a middle-aged Caucasian gentlemen sitting there who actually speaks to Natalee and the other girls. And I just want to know -- you know, he absolutely fits the description of the man Joran describes. He actually looks a lot like Paulus, too.

And I just want to see whether he had talked to that man before the girls arrived, whether he talked to that man after the girls left. And quite remarkably, Hans Mos told me they've never even identified who that man is to this day.

VAN SUSTEREN: Does Hans Mos want to help investigate Deepak and Satish and Paulus or not?

KELLY: No. In fact, the first call I made to him, he said -- he asked if this had anything to do with the Dr. Phil litigation, and if it did, he would not help me because he totally supports Satish and Deepak.

And the other thing is -- let me just add, Greta, you know, Aruba is a tourist island. Their commerce -- they can survive if the story is -- you know, is one aberrant act by a young man who got caught up and panicked on an accidental death of a young girl there. That they can live with. But you know, for several young men conspiring and plotting and putting someone into human trafficking, adults covering it up, law enforcement covering it up, government officials looking away, that's something Aruba can't survive.

And I think that's why when you go down there and you present them with things or ask them questions, they want to disprove everything you say or not listen to it, rather than go after it.

VAN SUSTEREN: Well, that's my rub, is they won't even investigate, you know, any of this that we have.

KELLY: Sure.

VAN SUSTEREN: You know, just investigate it. Prove it or disprove it, one or the other. John, thank you.

KELLY: Sure, Greta.

VAN SUSTEREN: Coming up: You heard Joran van der Sloot in an interview done in Thailand say he sold Natalee, but eight hours later, before we had even gotten out of Thailand, an e-mail flashed across my BlackBerry. Joran said he lied to us. Did Joran lie to us? And if so, when? When he said he sold Natalee or eight hours later, when he said it was not true? Joran's lawyer, Joe Tacopina, joins us next.

Plus, you will hear an audio recording. Joran says it is a conversation between his father and him. And two of the words mentioned on the recording that you need to pay close attention to are human trafficking. You have to hear this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VAN SUSTEREN: Joran van der Sloot says he told his father Paulus that he sold Natalee Holloway to a man in Aruba. Joran says he recorded conversations between his father an him that refer to this sale and could possibly corroborate what he told us on tape.

In a moment you will hear one of those recordings that Joran says took place early in 2008. Now, we have repeatedly reached out to Joran's van der Sloot's father Paulus, but he has refused to respond.

We cannot verify whether if the voices on the tape are Joran and his father. The prosecutor in Aruba could do this with his subpoena power. And note, Joran says this is his father on the recording.

We had two different experts analyze if the recording was altered. One expert is confident it is not altered, while the other expert has concerns that the recording may have been modified. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J. VAN DER SLOOT: Hi, dad, how are you?

P. VAN DER SLOOT: I'm all right, you?

J. VAN DER SLOOT: I'm sort of fed up. I can't stand it any longer.

P. VAN DER SLOOT: Joran, hang in there a bit longer. You must keep tough.

J. VAN DER SLOOT: I just want it to be over. I don't care what will happen to me.

P. VAN DER SLOOT: I understand, but too much has happened. You have to be strong.

J. VAN DER SLOOT: I do my best, but I really don't know. I feel rotten.

P. VAN DER SLOOT: Joran, you have no choice.

J. VAN DER SLOOT: Yes, I can come forward and end this.

P. VAN DER SLOOT: Yeah, not a good idea, I think. You have to think about us too.

J. VAN DER SLOOT: Yes, I will do that, but if they find the girl, there is at least proof I didn't hurt anybody.

P. VAN DER SLOOT: But what you have done is pretty bad. Human trafficking is a serious crime.

J. VAN DER SLOOT: I know, but how could I know where all this would lead to?

P. VAN DER SLOOT: Joran, it's a shame you made certain choices, but there has to be a moment it will stop. Okay? You cannot talk with anyone about this, do you understand?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAN SUSTEREN: Joran van der Sloot's lawyer, Joe Tacopina, joins us live. Joe, am I right, you still do represent Joran?

JOE TACOPINA, ATTORNEY FOR JORAN VAN DER SLOOT: I represent him, Greta, for the purpose of the Aruba investigation, which for all intents and purposes is over.

Quite frankly, when you asked me to come on last week or a few weeks ago, I hadn't seen this tape. Had I seen this first, I probably would have declined your invitation, Greta, because I just - we could do this - and look, obviously you paid him some money to either give him a tape recording or have him give you tapes or to submit to an interview.

VAN SUSTEREN: Stop there. Let me explain something.

TACOPINA: Please.

VAN SUSTEREN: Just so you get it right. He contacted us. He said he had a tape.

TACOPINA: Yes.

VAN SUSTEREN: I said we couldn't buy it, but we could license it. That's what the media does. You license photos, you license recordings, you license tape.

He gave us the tape. We've had it sent to someone to have it checked out if there were problems with it. I went to Thailand to find out what the story was on the tape to fill in the blanks to corroborate it.

TACOPINA: OK. So whatever I have - I mean, an email from one of your producers, Steph Watts, you know, to Joran, talking about the Western Union transaction. Greta, look --

VAN SUSTEREN: That is how the money is transferred. There's no secret. There's no secret.

TACOPINA: You paid him for a tape that he made and wound up getting an hour interview with him. And so be it, Greta. Great TV, great ratings- -

VAN SUSTEREN: Do you have a problem with that?

TACOPINA: Yes, I do have a problem with it, Greta, because if you offered Joran $10,000 tomorrow and ask him to tell you a fifth story, he would do it.

Clearly, he's a sick kid. Clearly, I have nothing to say in defense of his actions, Greta. OK?

VAN SUSTEREN: Do you deny...?

TACOPINA: But I still tell you, and I stand by the notion that the investigation regarding the disappearance of Natalee Holloway has not led to Joran. That's the bottom line.

No one expects anyone to believe anything this kid has to say anymore. Quite frankly, he's on the verge of sociopath and despicable, but--

VAN SUSTEREN: Explain something to me, Joe.

TACOPINA: Please.

VAN SUSTEREN: According to the timeline --I'm trying to figure this out, because I really want this investigated. That's why we're bringing this information in.

TACOPINA: Really?

VAN SUSTEREN: Now stop. There's has been resistance from Aruba. There has been resistance from you, which, of course, that's your job as the lawyer. I understand that and I have an appreciation for a defense lawyer.

TACOPINA: I know you do.

VAN SUSTEREN: But when he comes to us and says look, I have my father on tape saying about the human trafficking, this explains what happened. I'd like to find her alive is what he told us.

Of course, I didn't believe that it was true, that she could possibly be alive. But he said that he sold her.

So I said "What do you have?" And he came to us. We didn't go after him.

TACOPINA: Greta, that's fine. But look at the source. He's told so many different versions.

VAN SUSTEREN: All right, but what about his father in - what - how do you justify what his father said on this tape? Is his father also telling us different versions?

TACOPINA: Oh, that tape--

VAN SUSTEREN: Skip Joran. What -- Is the tape made up?

TACOPINA: I spoke to Paulus last night as this was going on. I mean, talk about a guy-- you don't know Paulus. I do. Paulus is a simpleton.

VAN SUSTEREN: Is this tape made up? Is this tape just crazy?

TACOPINA: He absolutely denies ever having that conversation, ever. So yes, I believe that tape's false.

Think about it for a second--

(CROSSTALK)

VAN SUSTEREN: So we can do a comparison, so we can check it out? I'm willing to check it out.

TACOPINA: Listen, Greta, Greta, just hold on a second. Think about the logic of this. Joran calls you and tape-recorded an incriminating conversation with his father. Why? For what purpose? So he could sell it to you? I mean, why would he have an incriminating tape recording of himself and his father?

VAN SUSTEREN: All I'm trying to do, Joe, all I want to do, Joe, is try to find out - stop.

(CROSSTALK)

TACOPINA: If that's the case, why in July did you have this interview, and why hasn't it not been turned over - why didn't you just send it to the authorities? How about the FBI? Did they get a copy of this?

VAN SUSTEREN: Because if you want to know the practical matter, no sooner than we had it done, we needed to corroborate it to make sure it wasn't lies, because he named a lot of people. In fact, if you notice, we bleeped out some names as we're trying to investigate.

Then we went into what you may have noticed was a presidential election. So we've been busy doing that.

TACOPINA: Oh, but you don't have to do this investigation, Greta. Give the tape to the FBI. They're not involved in the presidential election.

VAN SUSTEREN: The FBI has no jurisdiction, for god's sakes. You know that.

TACOPINA: Oh, they can't investigate? You know they investigated this case!

VAN SUSTEREN: Joe, let me find out one thing--if this is a made-up tape, give me a voice sampling from Paulus van der Sloot so that I can do a voice comparison analysis. There is a forensic way to do that. Get that for me, and if this turns out to be a lie, I'll say this tape is a lie.

TACOPINA: FOX News does not - as much as I respect you and this network, FOX News is not the end-all, be-all for investigative services. There is a law enforcement agency involved. So you don't just say, give you the power of attorney. Or give you a voice sample.

VAN SUSTEREN: If you're saying this tape is a fraud, I'm willing to investigate it, and I'm willing to say if it is a fraud, I'll say on the air we did this analysis of Paulus Van Der Sloot's voice to the tape, and it's wrong. I'm willing to do that. But if you come on and tell me it's not true, at least give me the ability to prove or disprove it.

TACOPINA: Let me just say this, let me say this -- I'm not saying it's true or not. I'm telling you what Paulus said. I wasn't there. I wasn't a witness to any of this.

VAN SUSTEREN: Call Paulus up right now and we'll go into the green room and say, Paulus, give them a voice sample, if this is a fraud.

TACOPINA: Greta, why was this tape not sent to the authorities, then? Why hold it until like November if you did this in July if you really think - because you said on the interview last night, you said to Joran when you were trying to get him to speak, you said what if she's still alive, Joran? I still think there is a chance Natalee could still be alive. Time is of the essence. Why? Because of the elections?

VAN SUSTEREN: Joe, because you know what, unlike you and the others, I've been spending my weekends actually working on this case. Do not criticize me for not working it. It's 2008.

TACOPINA: Don't be defensive, please, Greta. I'm not criticizing you for working. But send the tape to an authority. Send the tape to an authority. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying you're not working on it.

VAN SUSTEREN: If they're willing to use their police powers, subpoena power to subpoena a voice exemplar from Joran van der Sloot, and our FBI doesn't have the authority, but the Aruban prosecutor does, he's got it. He can have it.

TACOPINA: So you have conditions on giving over possibly incriminating evidence?

VAN SUSTEREN: No.

TACOPINA: You have the tape, send them the tape right now.

VAN SUSTEREN: Do something, not sit on it. Not to just sit on it.

TACOPINA: I have no control over that, Greta. You know that. Ok? You know I have no control over it.

VAN SUSTEREN: You do have control over getting a voice sample from your client. Get it and you and I can both go to the forensic expert together. I'll go with you.

TACOPINA: Greta, I know for a fact, because you said it many times, "That doesn't make sense, Joran." That doesn't make sense. You don't believe a word he was saying on that interview last night, do you?

VAN SUSTEREN: You're dodging. You're dodging. Get me the voice sample.

(CROSSTALK)

TACOPINA: Listen, it's not my voice, OK!

VAN SUSTEREN: Get me the voice sample and you ... Joe, I got to go.

TACOPINA: Greta, send the tape to the investigators and I'll give you a voice sample. How about that?

VAN SUSTEREN: Right. They're real busy investigating. Joe, thank you.

TACOPINA: Bye.

VAN SUSTEREN: Joran says he traded Natalee Holloway for $10,000 but got shorted $400. Joran said he handed her off to a mystery man who took her on a boat.

This is completely different from what he was caught on tape in Holland saying earlier this year. And does she think Natalee is still alive? You will hear from Natalee Holloway's mother Beth, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

VAN SUSTEREN: Eighteen-year-old Natalee Holloway disappeared in Aruba on May 30, 2005. Joran van der Sloot has been arrested twice but never charged with a crime.

In 2006 Joran went "On the Record" saying he left her on the beach.

But then in February, '08, a hidden camera in Holland caught Joran saying that she had passed out and he had disposed of her body. And now Joran says he sold Natalee for thousands of dollars to a man who wanted a blonde girl.

Joran says Natalee was taken away onto a boat with this mystery man, and that she did not struggle. He then says he was lying.

And we spoke with Natalee Holloway's mother, Beth.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VAN SUSTEREN: What's sort of racing through your mind, your thoughts? We've obviously dropped a sort of 10-pound balloon on your head. I don't know whether it's true or it's not. We dragged you up here to New York, so you knew something was up. What are you thinking about?

BETH HOLLOWAY, NATALEE'S HOLLOWAY'S MOTHER: The main thing I go back to, I think about Joran in the car with Patrick. I can't -- it's hard for me to just discount that.

I feel like I'm trying to balance both, OK? So we've got two latest scenarios within `08, basically, coming out in 2008.

Like you said, keeping a lot of the elements are the same, a lot of the elements of the story are the same. Just changing, he just keeps changing some of the -- now he's saying, you know, she's alive, versus, you know, not alive.

It's a transaction versus, you know, a panic mode, because this was all evidently well thought out, planned, executed. He had to line it up, he had to grab a girl. I don't think it was Natalee in particular, I think it's just whoever he could get for that, whoever he could get. I think that's how it went down.

Natalee I think just happened to be the one he happened to get, not that she was sought out, picked out. I don't think that. He just got one.

But -- so it's changing quite a bit of elements from fully executed and planned to an accident. So it's just hard, you know, it's just hard with him, because he, boy, he can go off in some different directions pretty quickly.

And it's hard to deny that conversation with his father. And it was definitely a tight window. I know that. I know he had a tight window of that night of what he said he did. And if you have an accident, it sure is hard to think that quick on your feet. An hour and 20 minutes -- what did he have, an hour and 20 minutes?

VAN SUSTEREN: Not much time.

HOLLOWAY: It's pretty hard to think that quick on your feet in panic mode. You think that quick on your feet if you have something fully planned.

VAN SUSTEREN: Is this what you expected when I told you to come up here?

HOLLOWAY: No.

VAN SUSTEREN: What did you expect?

HOLLOWAY: What did I expect? I just wait until it unfolds. I try not to go there anymore. I just wait until I hear it, because you just got to think, I mean, I just want to be so careful and not--before we make a move, because, I mean you're the one who taught me once you go down a road, once you knock down that wall, you can't go back.

So I realize every step that's made we can't turn around and go back.

VAN SUSTEREN: Do you think she's alive?

HOLLOWAY: I don't. I mean I'd love to be proven wrong, but no, I don't.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAN SUSTEREN: Coming up, Joran van der Sloot says the first person he told about selling Natalee Holloway was his teacher, a teacher he was close with. Is that the real story? We searched for Joran's teacher. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VAN SUSTEREN: Joran says the first person he confided in about selling Natalee was one of his high school teachers. Joran says he and the teacher were close and the teacher told him to tell the truth. We promised you we will keep investigating, so we flew across America and tracked down one of Joran's teachers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VAN SUSTEREN: Steve, first of all, I guess there's no secret that we sort of just showed up on your doorstep.

STEVE SCHMUTZ: Yes.

VAN SUSTEREN: And you're being a good sport about this. You know Joran van der Sloot?

SCHMUTZ: Yes.

VAN SUSTEREN: How did you meet him?

SCHMUTZ: I had him in class at the International School of Aruba.

VAN SUSTEREN: How long did you teach there?

SCHMUTZ: I taught there for two years, and I had him for one year as a student.

VAN SUSTEREN: The two years that you taught there, was that his junior and senior year, or was that his senior year and then the year since then?

SCHMUTZ: His senior year and the first year he was in college.

VAN SUSTEREN: I take it you've heard about Natalee Holloway.

SCHMUTZ: Yes.

VAN SUSTEREN: When did you first hear Natalee disappeared?

SCHMUTZ: Either Monday after school or Tuesday at school. I can't remember if it was Monday after school or if it was Tuesday at school. I'm not sure.

VAN SUSTEREN: When was the first time you saw Joran after hearing that information?

SCHMUTZ: I don't remember if it was at school on Tuesday, but either Tuesday or Wednesday after school at a health club was the first time I spoke with him.

VAN SUSTEREN: Did he come over to you or did you call him over? Or did he call you over?

SCHMUTZ: He came over and spoke with me. I was exercising at the time, and he came into the room and came over and told me what had happened.

VAN SUSTEREN: How do you characterize your relationship at that point? Were you a teacher who was close to him leading up to that, or he was just one of nine or 10 students?

SCHMUTZ: No. We got along well. I would say in the class, I got along well with all of the seniors. It was a pretty close group, close-knit group.

VAN SUSTEREN: When he told you what happened, what, to the best of your recollection, and I realize it's been three years, but what do you remember he told you when you talked to him at the health club?

SCHMUTZ: He told me a similar story to the one that he originally told the authorities, and that was he left Carlos and Charlie's with the Kalpoes and Natalee, and that they went to, as he said, see the sharks, that she wanted to see the sharks, and that he later dropped her off at her hotel.

VAN SUSTEREN: And that was the sum total? There was never any discussion about drugs, alcohol, anything like that?

SCHMUTZ: Not to my recollection. He might have said something that she was drunk or that she'd been drinking. Nothing that really stuck in my mind.

VAN SUSTEREN: Did you know who the Kalpoes were?

SCHMUTZ: No. Never knew who they were.

VAN SUSTEREN: Do you remember if he used their names?

SCHMUTZ: I think he might have said they're friends. Of course, it came up in the news right away, so we knew who they were by virtue of the media. But I had never come across them before.

VAN SUSTEREN: Have you ever met the Kalpoes?

SCHMUTZ: No.

VAN SUSTEREN: Did he ever mention anything about selling her?

SCHMUTZ: No.

VAN SUSTEREN: And is that something that would probably stand out in your mind?

SCHMUTZ: Oh, yes. And it's something that I probably would have mentioned to other people around that time, friends of mine that I worked with. We were talking about the story, we were following it on the news. We couldn't get away from it.

VAN SUSTEREN: Between the time that he was arrested on June 9th, his graduation day, and March, when I came to Aruba and had an interview with Joran and met you for the first time, did you have any communication with Joran at all?

SCHMUTZ: Not that I can recall, and I'm not even sure if, because he was a graduating senior, they took their finals early, if they were even in school that second week during the investigation. So I don't even know if I saw him.

VAN SUSTEREN: Was there talk at all at the school--have you ever heard any talk anywhere, including any rumors, about Natalee being sold? Has that ever crossed your radar screen?

SCHMUTZ: No. We basically followed the story through the media. Most of our information -- we didn't know anything that the media already knew or was telling us. So we didn't know anything unique.

VAN SUSTEREN: So people weren't -- you didn't have your ear to the ground and hear different things about it?

SCHMUTZ: Well, we went home for the summer right after his arrest. We left I think three days later. So I followed the story through your coverage.

VAN SUSTEREN: And then you went back in the fall?

SCHMUTZ: Then we went back in the fall. And within I don't know, a few weeks after our return, he was released. And then he went over to Holland to go to school.

And at that point, the story kind of slowed down. There were moments when it came back up again in the media, but we didn't talk about it, really.

VAN SUSTEREN: So his statement to us that he told you in the days after Natalee disappeared, that he sold Natalee, that's a lie?

SCHMUTZ: That's a conversation that I don't recall ever having with him. And whether it's a lie or he's associating me with somebody else that he had that conversation with, I don't know. I can't speak for Joran. But I never had that conversation with him.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAN SUSTEREN: Now the catch. Could it have been a different teacher who Joran confided in and Joran tried to throw us off by pointing us to this teacher?

We have brand new information that it could be a different teacher. We will have that information for you on Monday.

And still ahead, what does the Aruban prosecutor Hans Mos say about what we have uncovered? We offered to fly and meet him to show him this tape. Does he think this tape is important and worth investigating? And what is next in the investigation? Stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VAN SUSTEREN: More than three years after 18-year-old Natalee Holloway disappeared from Aruba, we have brand new information.

Joran van der Sloot, one of the last people spotted with Natalee Holloway on May 30, 2005, has come forward saying he sold Natalee for about $10,000. Joran says he took the cash and walked Natalee onto a mystery man's boat. We offered to meet with the Aruban prosecutor Hans Mos to show him the tapes of Joran's latest interview with us before we aired it. But the prosecutor declined our offer and said he does not feel the contents of the tape has any value as evidence.

But we urged Holland and the Aruban authorities to look into this latest information. Could Natalee Holloway still be alive? Could she really be in Venezuela? If there is even the smallest possibility, we urge the Aruban authorities to investigate.

Though Joran told us by email eight hours after our interview in Thailand that he was lying, we don't know if he was lying or telling the truth and later got cold feet. We do know there are significant clues the Aruban prosecutor can and should follow up upon.

If Aruba, with its subpoena and police power refuses to investigate, we'll do our best to keep investigating.

Thank you for being with us tonight. Good night.
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