Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 - 12/3/08

[klaasend]

Morning! IMO the recorded conversation between Joran and his father is the real thing. Joran wanted to tell the truth but Greta screwed up. This open window when Joran was weak is now shut for good.

Martini - I disagree and I agree with the Dutch posters that it was scripted.

[the big hammer]

JQK : Drives a wedge between Aruba and the sloots

JOHN Q. KELLY, ATTORNEY FOR NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S PARENTS: You know, the most logical explanation of how Natalee could disappear, absolutely vanish into air within a half hour of being dropped off at the beach with Joran is consistent with what he said. And all the other evidence points towards it, too, that she was led down to the fisherman's hut, she was led to the shore, you know, alive, well, and led onto a small sports utility vehicle, and you know, very willingly got on board and before she knew what was happening and Joran didn't get on board, you know, the boat took off and she was subdued eventually...And the other thing is -- let me just add, Greta, you know, Aruba is a tourist island. Their commerce -- they can survive if the story is -- you know, is one aberrant act by a young man who got caught up and panicked on an accidental death of a young girl there. That they can live with. But you know, for several young men conspiring and plotting and putting someone into human trafficking, adults covering it up, law enforcement covering it up, government officials looking away, that's something Aruba can't survive.

Short of a devastating hurricane, can one imagine any more conclusive tourism industry death blow than this?

I don't know whether JQK, or any of the informed players, really believes this human trafficking story.  But JQK uses this as a basis to slam Aruba -- big time.

And this is a point where the sloots interests, and the interests of Aruba, diverge significantly.  And Kelly is driving a wedge between the two and separating the competing interests and setting them up in opposition.

The sloots likely springboarded into the trafficking story, as a way to distance themsleves from direct implication in a murder, etc. -- but by taking the path they have chosen (trafficking), they have put Aruba in an even more dangerous place.  Who would consider Aruba as a "family-friendly" tourist destination when young girls are kidnapped off beaches and sold to men in boats -- never to return?

Kelly and the Holloway family want Mos to get off his ass and get this investigation moving -- they are doing so by setting up the sloots and Aruba for a fight.  And the best part is that the sloots handed this to everyone on a silver platter, by "volunteering" the trafficking story, and providing strong corroboration via the goon's recent adventures in the Thai sex slave scene.

.

[MumInOhio]

Thanks 2NJS...I have pretty much discarded a lot of the timeline that deals with the statements and phone calls. JQK said he didn't see those records IIRC. Just trying to figure out what Beth believes to be true.

2.45 to 4.05 = 1 hour and 20 minutes.

Gardener to Pond Witness?

http://www.hollowaycase.com/

These are 'excerpts' from timeline by Shizaru

I am not saying I believe these entries to be true (or false) -- just trying to come up with Beth's 1 hr 20 minutes.


1:00 am: CnCs closes, Joran, Satish, and Natalee leave CnCs together.


2:26-2:34 am: Joran calls Deepak from his cell phone (DZNH)

During the call, Joran talks to Deepak in Papi and Dutch so that Natalee will not understand. Deepak asks what happened and Joran boasts that she had given him a blow job. Deepak says that Joran is a lucky guy, and he will come and pick him up (DZNH).

During the call. Joran tells Deepak he is walking home and is in the vicinity of the McDonalds on Palm Beach. Joran is breathing heavily. He says he is walking home barefoot, because he took his shoes off to go in the water with Natalee and could not find them again. He also says he left Natalee "passed out" on the beach (D 6/11, D 6/16)

Thanks Sharon...I couldn't find an exact time for them leaving C&Cs...They were all ushered outside and I couldn't find a time they saw the other students and Natalee leaned out the window...

David Kock said they made a stop. I think this was a slip, therefore possible.

Then the jogger at 3AM? and also AG's cousin at 2AM? Couldn't find anything that said which way the cousin said they were going on the main road.

[2NJSons_Mom]

Thanks 2NJS...I have pretty much discarded a lot of the timeline that deals with the statements and phone calls. JQK said he didn't see those records IIRC. Just trying to figure out what Beth believes to be true.

2.45 to 4.05 = 1 hour and 20 minutes.

Gardener to Pond Witness?

http://www.hollowaycase.com/

These are 'excerpts' from timeline by Shizaru

I am not saying I believe these entries to be true (or false) -- just trying to come up with Beth's 1 hr 20 minutes.


1:00 am: CnCs closes, Joran, Satish, and Natalee leave CnCs together.


2:26-2:34 am: Joran calls Deepak from his cell phone (DZNH)

During the call, Joran talks to Deepak in Papi and Dutch so that Natalee will not understand. Deepak asks what happened and Joran boasts that she had given him a blow job. Deepak says that Joran is a lucky guy, and he will come and pick him up (DZNH).

During the call. Joran tells Deepak he is walking home and is in the vicinity of the McDonalds on Palm Beach. Joran is breathing heavily. He says he is walking home barefoot, because he took his shoes off to go in the water with Natalee and could not find them again. He also says he left Natalee "passed out" on the beach (D 6/11, D 6/16)

Thanks, Sharon....I agree that there are a lot of things in this timeline (which looked at also) that are questionable.  It also could be 1:40 at Sloot home to 3:00am (ish) Joran telling Deepak he's home, or 2:30 Gardener to 4am pick up (not on timeline) or...........it made me dizzy so that's why I hadn't responded..

[texasmom]

I hope this works, it is a portion of the speech that Beth made on July 4, 2005 that some in Aruba said she needed to apologize for.   

I still can't watch it without crying.  That last sentence....heartbreaking.   

[MumInOhio]

TM...do your recall when and where that was...any chance the HI on June 10th? TIA

Sorry mum, I'm not sure.  But I think if you're not right, you're very close.

Thanks...I remember reading about a reporter being there at around 10.30PM.

[BUCKSHOT]

In my opinion:

(1) This interview from Joran to Greta was scripted. Joran knew it would be televised; therefore, it was done with a definite purpose. Greta asked him a few questions which may have taken him out of his comfort zone which led to his standing up. "Joran, you said you wanted to get this off of your chest. How are we supposed to believe you if you are being evasive on this question" He may have wanted to tell the real truth (not the sex slave story) but knew better. He was instructed not too. He only finished the interview because he knew he would come off looking like the hot-headed kid that he is. Leopards do not lose their spots. Denying the whole stroy through email was his way of following the trend of discrediting his statements through an admitted habitual lying disorder.

(2) Once Joran knew of tape recording his father with the chip, he probably pulled out his other phone and made his dad (Daury) aware of the plan. It was a great opportunity for both, again, to follow a script of what story they wanted out there in the public. Like someone else said, do you think they would be speaking in English to one another when their language of choice was Papiamento? It was a well devised plan. Paulus had to play his part so as to come off as believable, lending credibility to Joran's fabricated confession of the so-called truth. It was a very transparent and weak effort.

(3) Multiple persons have sat in a room for hours and hours, sifting through information. They are taking known facts (ones that can not be refuted) and incorporating them into this latest concocted and well thought out story. Additionally, they are mixing in aspects that they want everyone to believe. This includes keeping thought off of the real crime scene(s). Additionally, they seek to cover as many bases as possible. They want to stick to parts of the story that people have latched on to (whether truthful or not) and run with those.

(4) Do you think Paulus would really have to pay off his friends. We do not know whose names were bleeped out, but we sure can imagine. Dompig, VanderStraaten, Vocking, Judge_____, Jacobs, Jansen, Mos. These people are Paulus' friends or controlled by Paulus' friends. Why would he have to pay them off? They, too, were involved in the cover-up and would be compelled not to reveal information, concerning their own involvement(s), for fear of global scrutiny and/or corruption charges.

(5) In conjunction with (3), there are laying the foundation for the possibility of the contents of the trap being confirmed as remains of NH. Joran turned her over to someone, who must have murdered and disposed of her body before getting to far from the island. What a waste of $10k...Or better yet, this person brought her back to the location to frame poor old high-rolling sporter Joran. What a joke...

(6) No one can rewind time. Everyone knows how critical the first 48-72 hours are in an investigation. Since the cover-up began immediately, they were buying time from the start. All focus was shifted away from the real evidence and truth so as to allow time for the clean up crew. There were a team of corrupt professionals who did their part in keeping evidence of the crime suppressed. Blood stains were cleaned, rocks were painted, witnesses were interviewed by designated persons (who asked softball questions), car seats were removed, search warrants were blocked, physical evidence was mishandled and/or purposefully lost, witnesses (those not afraid to come forth due to intimidation) were discredited and deported, peripheral participants were re-located or kept unknown, disinformants were hard at work on TV and internet steering the investigation in the wrong direction, and on and on.

(7) I am surprised that names were mentioned by Joran. I can not imagine who devised that part of the plan and how they will deal with that. I suppose they will not have to as they will discredit Joran's whole interview as being a lie. I was still taken back by it, though. Mentioning names of bribed officials by Paulus was divulging a little too much information by the stoner.

( I still wonder, to this day, the role of the Kalpoes. Their role is much more than just being there with Joran. I just can not put my finger on it.

(9) Aruba fought very hard in the beginning to block the role of any other international police role in the investigation on grounds of jurisdiction. Anyone other than them can only act as an advisor. Other agencies can surely test results, at their own expense or billed (doubt it). But, Aruba can send them anything they want to test. (Example: Here..Test this car seat with alleged blood on it. If the international agency is sent a replaced car seat with chocolate and cleaning fluid, what can their finding possibly be besides chocolate and cleaning fluid. Aruba then announces to the world the findings. The chain of command is what is important but never spoken of due to disinformants pushing the agenda of negative reults of the particular tested item). Aruba can make this investigation go however it sees fit. They can allow/disallow witness statements, evidence, etc so as to fit their agenda. Court proceedings may seem to follow normalcy, but the man with the robe knows the role and outcome so desired and has been instructed how to rule so as to fit an agenda.

Just some random thoughts. Does anyone else agree (or disagree)?

Revised (2). I hadn't seen the tapes.

[MumInOhio]

JQK : Drives a wedge between Aruba and the sloots

JOHN Q. KELLY, ATTORNEY FOR NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S PARENTS: You know, the most logical explanation of how Natalee could disappear, absolutely vanish into air within a half hour of being dropped off at the beach with Joran is consistent with what he said. And all the other evidence points towards it, too, that she was led down to the fisherman's hut, she was led to the shore, you know, alive, well, and led onto a small sports utility vehicle, and you know, very willingly got on board and before she knew what was happening and Joran didn't get on board, you know, the boat took off and she was subdued eventually...And the other thing is -- let me just add, Greta, you know, Aruba is a tourist island. Their commerce -- they can survive if the story is -- you know, is one aberrant act by a young man who got caught up and panicked on an accidental death of a young girl there. That they can live with. But you know, for several young men conspiring and plotting and putting someone into human trafficking, adults covering it up, law enforcement covering it up, government officials looking away, that's something Aruba can't survive.

Short of a devastating hurricane, can one imagine any more conclusive tourism industry death blow than this?

I don't know whether JQK, or any of the informed players, really believes this human trafficking story.  But JQK uses this as a basis to slam Aruba -- big time.

And this is a point where the sloots interests, and the interests of Aruba, diverge significantly.  And Kelly is driving a wedge between the two and separating the competing interests and setting them up in opposition.

The sloots likely springboarded into the trafficking story, as a way to distance themsleves from direct implication in a murder, etc. -- but by taking the path they have chosen (trafficking), they have put Aruba in an even more dangerous place.  Who would consider Aruba as a "family-friendly" tourist destination when young girls are kidnapped off beaches and sold to men in boats -- never to return?

Kelly and the Holloway family want Mos to get off his ass and get this investigation moving -- they are doing so by setting up the sloots and Aruba for a fight.  And the best part is that the sloots handed this to everyone on a silver platter, by "volunteering" the trafficking story, and providing strong corroboration via the goon's recent adventures in the Thai sex slave scene.

.

Great observations Hammer...I was going "What!" reading JQK's words in the transcript this morning!

Thanks!

[Tamikosmom]

TM...do your recall when and where that was...any chance the HI on June 10th? TIA

Sorry mum, I'm not sure.  But I think if you're not right, you're very close.

The first time this image appeared ... five days following Natalee's disappearance ... it was associated with the following article.  The photo no longer appears on the page.

This photo was my mainstay when the trolls who posted on the forum at CourtTV ... the trolls who later broke away and formed RU ... implied that Beth was not acting like a grieving mother.

Janet

_________


Three Probed in Missing Teen Case
Saturday, June 04, 2005

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,158598,00.html

[Frank]

Hammer,

You're right on. Kelly may or may not believe the trafficking story, but it's perfect to go with it for the sake of pressure.

I hope he lobbies our government to use this information to put a ban on travel to Aruba.

Aruba needs to prove how they know Natalee's dead.

Where's Jossy? He was the one who had a reporter chasing what they thought was Natalee in Venezuela in the first weeks.

[MumInOhio]

Thanks 2NJS...I have pretty much discarded a lot of the timeline that deals with the statements and phone calls. JQK said he didn't see those records IIRC. Just trying to figure out what Beth believes to be true.

2.45 to 4.05 = 1 hour and 20 minutes.

Gardener to Pond Witness?

http://www.hollowaycase.com/

These are 'excerpts' from timeline by Shizaru

I am not saying I believe these entries to be true (or false) -- just trying to come up with Beth's 1 hr 20 minutes.


1:00 am: CnCs closes, Joran, Satish, and Natalee leave CnCs together.


2:26-2:34 am: Joran calls Deepak from his cell phone (DZNH)

During the call, Joran talks to Deepak in Papi and Dutch so that Natalee will not understand. Deepak asks what happened and Joran boasts that she had given him a blow job. Deepak says that Joran is a lucky guy, and he will come and pick him up (DZNH).

During the call. Joran tells Deepak he is walking home and is in the vicinity of the McDonalds on Palm Beach. Joran is breathing heavily. He says he is walking home barefoot, because he took his shoes off to go in the water with Natalee and could not find them again. He also says he left Natalee "passed out" on the beach (D 6/11, D 6/16)

Thanks, Sharon....I agree that there are a lot of things in this timeline (which looked at also) that are questionable.  It also could be 1:40 at Sloot home to 3:00am (ish) Joran telling Deepak he's home, or 2:30 Gardener to 4am pick up (not on timeline) or...........it made me dizzy so that's why I hadn't responded..

The 1.40 at the Sloot's house came from a statement, so I just tried to ignore. But believes Natalee was there, and so do I...From 2 until the gardener saw them?

Seems Beth knows how much time when she asks Greta...It will bother me now!

[Poochy]

It was not $10,000.  It was $400.  Who owed that amount in gambling debts and what amount did Paulus withdraw?

Dont' know what Paulus withdrew but I thought he was depositing what Joran won for him while sitting in his spot at the ca$ino. But now that you mention it - both Joran and Paulus seemed the need to account for a couple hundred dollars put into a bank account...

A few things came to mind when I read your post:

1) Was it Ruth who lost over $300 of her 'daddy's money' and Joran helped win about $100 back, then told her to stop gambling?

2) Supposedly a Natalee look-a-like was staying in the same H.I room as Natalee's earlier in the week w/a dude. The dude bought drugs, but also owed one of the two security guards arrested in Nat's case some $drug. The dude told the sec guard that the look-a-like would pay up and then the dude left the island. The look-a-like was threatened by the sec guard. When the look-a-like came back to the states, she called the FBI when she recognized one of the arrested sec guards as the one who threatened her. (I have always wondered why the 2 sec guards haven't sued like Paulus did....)

The MBers said a sec guard tried to break into Natalee's room.

Natalee was seen talking to someone for 30 min. earlier that night.

(Reminds me of the codetalker 'Why did the girl owe money' and 'what did the girl do earlier in the week' -earlier in the week Natalee wasn't in Aruba...the look-a-like was).

[klaasend]

JQK : Drives a wedge between Aruba and the sloots

JOHN Q. KELLY, ATTORNEY FOR NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S PARENTS: You know, the most logical explanation of how Natalee could disappear, absolutely vanish into air within a half hour of being dropped off at the beach with Joran is consistent with what he said. And all the other evidence points towards it, too, that she was led down to the fisherman's hut, she was led to the shore, you know, alive, well, and led onto a small sports utility vehicle, and you know, very willingly got on board and before she knew what was happening and Joran didn't get on board, you know, the boat took off and she was subdued eventually...And the other thing is -- let me just add, Greta, you know, Aruba is a tourist island. Their commerce -- they can survive if the story is -- you know, is one aberrant act by a young man who got caught up and panicked on an accidental death of a young girl there. That they can live with. But you know, for several young men conspiring and plotting and putting someone into human trafficking, adults covering it up, law enforcement covering it up, government officials looking away, that's something Aruba can't survive.

Short of a devastating hurricane, can one imagine any more conclusive tourism industry death blow than this?

I don't know whether JQK, or any of the informed players, really believes this human trafficking story.  But JQK uses this as a basis to slam Aruba -- big time.

And this is a point where the sloots interests, and the interests of Aruba, diverge significantly.  And Kelly is driving a wedge between the two and separating the competing interests and setting them up in opposition.

The sloots likely springboarded into the trafficking story, as a way to distance themsleves from direct implication in a murder, etc. -- but by taking the path they have chosen (trafficking), they have put Aruba in an even more dangerous place.  Who would consider Aruba as a "family-friendly" tourist destination when young girls are kidnapped off beaches and sold to men in boats -- never to return?

Kelly and the Holloway family want Mos to get off his ass and get this investigation moving -- they are doing so by setting up the sloots and Aruba for a fight.  And the best part is that the sloots handed this to everyone on a silver platter, by "volunteering" the trafficking story, and providing strong corroboration via the goon's recent adventures in the Thai sex slave scene.

.

Hammer - I referred to it last night as a chess game. 

[vms]

TM...do your recall when and where that was...any chance the HI on June 10th? TIA

Sorry mum, I'm not sure.  But I think if you're not right, you're very close.

The first time this image appeared ... five days following Natalee's disappearance ... it was associated with the following article.  The photo no longer appears on the page.

This photo was my mainstay when the trolls who posted on the forum at CourtTV ... the trolls who later broke away and formed RU ... implied that Beth was not acting like a grieving mother.

Janet

_________


Three Probed in Missing Teen Case
Saturday, June 04, 2005

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,158598,00.html

Image #77
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/caribbean/sfl-missinginaruba.gallery,0,4839897.photogallery

[MumInOhio]

TM...do your recall when and where that was...any chance the HI on June 10th? TIA

Sorry mum, I'm not sure.  But I think if you're not right, you're very close.

The first time this image appeared ... five days following Natalee's disappearance ... it was associated with the following article.  The photo no longer appears on the page.

This photo was my mainstay when the trolls who posted on the forum at CourtTV ... the trolls who later broke away and formed RU ... implied that Beth was not acting like a grieving mother.

Janet

_________


Three Probed in Missing Teen Case
Saturday, June 04, 2005

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,158598,00.html

Thanks Janet...That early!!!

[texasmom]

TM...do your recall when and where that was...any chance the HI on June 10th? TIA

Sorry mum, I'm not sure.  But I think if you're not right, you're very close.

The first time this image appeared ... five days following Natalee's disappearance ... it was associated with the following article.  The photo no longer appears on the page.

This photo was my mainstay when the trolls who posted on the forum at CourtTV ... the trolls who later broke away and formed RU ... implied that Beth was not acting like a grieving mother.

Janet

_________


Three Probed in Missing Teen Case
Saturday, June 04, 2005

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,158598,00.html

Image #77
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/caribbean/sfl-missinginaruba.gallery,0,4839897.photogallery

Thanks vms!   

[beachwego]

I was wondering..if perhaps...with Greta's show & JQK's statment (also Pdv Thailand sting) regarding human trafficking....if this would permit the FBI or some type of International Court to intervene & take over the investigation?   Perhaps this is all intentional!  We can only hope!!

[MumInOhio]

Thanks vms...Hmmmm!!!

Before the mattress...Before the Security Guards!

[BUCKSHOT]

Glenda Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:08 am @ RU

Obviously, I don't know what Mos told JQK. I do know that JQK did his best to get a copy of that Casino Tape and other tapes from other casinos where the man seen talking to Natalee might be playing at the same tables as Joran.

I was told in 2005 by one of the leads on the case that the Man was 100% not PvdS and they identified him as a guest of the resort and not a chaperone. 

Ok. It must be a fact..
 

[Tamikosmom]

Maybe Beth Holloway's timeline is based on the Gardener's testimony.  Carlos Ramos' observation took place at 2:30 AM on the morning of May 30, 2005 and ... would appear that Natalee had already met her demise.

Janet
__________

THE GARDENER

Carlos Ramos - Gardener
Court Hearing
August 15, 2005

I have seen the car in the morning of 30 May of Sunday on Monday. I went to Lorena on Monday night, then I went to work, told that I saw a car standing along the way when I drove along there. I cannot remember on which day I saw the photograph of the persons in the newspaper. The photograph, which the police force showed me, is the same photograph as the photograph that appeared in the Diario. You ask me how can I know or recognize the persons from the photograph in the newspaper or that I had seen that night. The first time then I saw the photograph in the Diario I had been astonished and I said that to colleagues. You represent me that I have explained that I have recognized the persons from their construction and mail hour. You ask me if I could see from my position in the car. My position was a bit is higher, in the turning I had drive concerning a sand hill as a result of which my position was a bit slanted. As a result, I could look at in the car. I have recognized the car from the rims. Also to the color and the transparent squares. You ask me if I can designate the persons, which sat in the car. Yes.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=271.msg41646;topicseen#msg41646


Gardener - Carlos Alberto Penata Ramos
Court Testimony
August 15, 2005

I looked and saw that on my watch it was at 02:30. For 03.00 I was at my work. I’m not sure exactly how precise it is. When I encountered the car in question, it was on that dirt road. I had slowed down to drive past there. The lights of my car "from" shining on that car. The person beside the driver, kept its hand for its head and face. I saw that the driver slid a bit to the back.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=271.msg41646;topicseen#msg41646


JOSSY MANSUR

NANCY GRACE
Nancy Grace for July 26, 2005, CNNHN
Aired July 26, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET

MANSUR: Because they were trying to hide their faces at that the hour, because we have to remember that the two Kalpoe brothers and Joran held on to the statement that they dropped Joran off at the beach and then went home. But here we have someone that says categorically that they did not go home, they were in the car with Joran. Joran was sitting in the driver`s seat.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/26/ng.01.html


BETH HOLLOWAY

CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Update on Natalee Holloway Investigation
Aired February 23, 2006 - 21:00   ET

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY: ... Deepak panicked. He panicked when the gardener gave that testimony. That very afternoon, he called an Aruban girl to help him establish an alibi. She, in turn, panicked. She called FBI. She dialed the 1-877-NATALEE number and told them that she did not want to be involved in this.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0602/23/lkl.01.html


DAVE HOLLOWAY

Hannity & Colmes
August 10, 2005

HOLLOWAY: Seems like every time someone speaks out or comes forward. Just like the gardener, he is supposed to appear in court Thursday then be immediately deported. That is the work of the defense of course. Some witnesses may be scared to come forward for fear of repercussions.