Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 - 12/3/08

[MumInOhio]

Anyone know what exactly Beth is referring to here...1 Hour 20 minutes...TIA

snipped Beth

And it's hard to deny that conversation with his father. And it was definitely a tight window. I know that. I know he had a tight window of that night of what he said he did. And if you have an accident, it sure is hard to think that quick on your feet. An hour and 20 minutes -- what did he have, an hour and 20 minutes?

VAN SUSTEREN: Not much time.

[BUCKSHOT]

In my opinion:

(1) This interview from Joran to Greta was scripted. Joran knew it would be televised; therefore, it was done with a definite purpose. Greta asked him a few questions which may have taken him out of his comfort zone which led to his standing up. "Joran, you said you wanted to get this off of your chest. How are we supposed to believe you if you are being evasive on this question" He may have wanted to tell the real truth (not the sex slave story) but knew better. He was instructed not too. He only finished the interview because he knew he would come off looking like the hot-headed kid that he is. Leopards do not lose their spots. Denying the whole stroy through email was his way of following the trend of discrediting his statements through an admitted habitual lying disorder.

(2) Once Joran knew of tape recording his father with the chip, he probably pulled out his other phone and made his dad (Daury) aware of the plan. It was a great opportunity for both, again, to follow a script of what story they wanted out there in the public. Like someone else said, do you think they would be speaking in English to one another when their language of choice was Papiamento? It was a well devised plan. Paulus had to play his part so as to come off as believable, lending credibility to Joran's fabricated confession of the so-called truth. It was a very transparent and weak effort.

(3) Multiple persons have sat in a room for hours and hours, sifting through information. They are taking known facts (ones that can not be refuted) and incorporating them into this latest concocted and well thought out story. Additionally, they are mixing in aspects that they want everyone to believe. This includes keeping thought off of the real crime scene(s). Additionally, they seek to cover as many bases as possible. They want to stick to parts of the story that people have latched on to (whether truthful or not) and run with those.

(4) Do you think Paulus would really have to pay off his friends. We do not know whose names were bleeped out, but we sure can imagine. Dompig, VanderStraaten, Vocking, Judge_____, Jacobs, Jansen, Mos. These people are Paulus' friends or controlled by Paulus' friends. Why would he have to pay them off? They, too, were involved in the cover-up and would be compelled not to reveal information, concerning their own involvement(s), for fear of global scrutiny and/or corruption charges.

(5) In conjunction with (3), there are laying the foundation for the possibility of the contents of the trap being confirmed as remains of NH. Joran turned her over to someone, who must have murdered and disposed of her body before getting to far from the island. What a waste of $10k...Or better yet, this person brought her back to the location to frame poor old high-rolling sporter Joran. What a joke...

(6) No one can rewind time. Everyone knows how critical the first 48-72 hours are in an investigation. Since the cover-up began immediately, they were buying time from the start. All focus was shifted away from the real evidence and truth so as to allow time for the clean up crew. There were a team of corrupt professionals who did their part in keeping evidence of the crime suppressed. Blood stains were cleaned, rocks were painted, witnesses were interviewed by designated persons (who asked softball questions), car seats were removed, search warrants were blocked, physical evidence was mishandled and/or purposefully lost, witnesses (those not afraid to come forth due to intimidation) were discredited and deported, peripheral participants were re-located or kept unknown, disinformants were hard at work on TV and internet steering the investigation in the wrong direction, and on and on.

(7) I am surprised that names were mentioned by Joran. I can not imagine who devised that part of the plan and how they will deal with that. I suppose they will not have to as they will discredit Joran's whole interview as being a lie. I was still taken back by it, though. Mentioning names of bribed officials by Paulus was divulging a little too much information by the stoner.

( I still wonder, to this day, the role of the Kalpoes. Their role is much more than just being there with Joran. I just can not put my finger on it.

(9) Aruba fought very hard in the beginning to block the role of any other international police role in the investigation on grounds of jurisdiction. Anyone other than them can only act as an advisor. Other agencies can surely test results, at their own expense or billed (doubt it). But, Aruba can send them anything they want to test. (Example: Here..Test this car seat with alleged blood on it. If the international agency is sent a replaced car seat with chocolate and cleaning fluid, what can their finding possibly be besides chocolate and cleaning fluid. Aruba then announces to the world the findings. The chain of command is what is important but never spoken of due to disinformants pushing the agenda of negative reults of the particular tested item). Aruba can make this investigation go however it sees fit. They can allow/disallow witness statements, evidence, etc so as to fit their agenda. Court proceedings may seem to follow normalcy, but the man with the robe knows the role and outcome so desired and has been instructed how to rule so as to fit an agenda.

Just some random thoughts. Does anyone else agree (or disagree)?

[johan555]

Lisa,
Kyle posted here that human remains were found.
Whose do you think they were?
Where are they now?

I don't think so Magnolia.  I could be wrong but according to Kyle's words in the following post ...


oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -
« Reply #363 on: March 20, 2008, 02:36:39 AM »

The samples were recovered by Aruban divers on the 7th of Jan.  These samples include a fabric found inside the trap which was sent for a comparative analysis to the FBI.  However, the samples were also reportedly DNA tested. I heard there were remains from a source, who likely referred to DNA as remains, as he said there was DNA found.  However, it's rather ambiguous to me, but the take home message from the FBI is simply: they're not commenting on the case and the fabric wasn't Natalee's blouse.  I'm unaware of any bone found.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg367044;topicseen#msg367044

Looks like bone to me /@400% .

Blonde, there is a post by Kyle where he definately says that
human remains were found.  I just didn't feel like contesting the
point last night.  After a long period in sea water, I don't know what
would remain other than bones.

whow !!

[2NJSons_Mom]

Anyone know what exactly Beth is referring to here...1 Hour 20 minutes...TIA

snipped Beth

And it's hard to deny that conversation with his father. And it was definitely a tight window. I know that. I know he had a tight window of that night of what he said he did. And if you have an accident, it sure is hard to think that quick on your feet. An hour and 20 minutes -- what did he have, an hour and 20 minutes?

VAN SUSTEREN: Not much time.

I don't have the timeline in front of me, and my memory may not serve me as well as I would like at times, but off the top of my head, I think Beth is referring to the time when 'something bad happened' and the 4am pick up.  Now, I'll have to go look at a timeline to see.

[Frank]

Buckshot,

I would add why would Paulus do "anything" to protect his son? Why would he go to these lengths if he wasn't involved from the beginning, for a minor no less?

He remains the only one arrested for premeditated murder. I believe they had done this 20 times before and nothing happened (death) and yet, "something bad happened."

As JQK said, if this was a singular incident by Joran, Aruba could survive, but it wasn't and Paulus had to be guilty of crimes BEFORE Natalee was killed.

[BUCKSHOT]

(3) Multiple persons have sat in a room for hours and hours, sifting through information. They are taking known facts (ones that can not be refuted) and incorporating them into this latest concocted and well thought out story. Additionally, they are mixing in aspects that they want everyone to believe. This includes keeping thought off of the real crime scene(s). Additionally, they seek to cover as many bases as possible. They want to stick to parts of the story that people have latched on to (whether truthful or not) and run with those.

I'm sure this is going on today, as we speak.

The media, including the internet, serve as testing grounds for new concocted stories. If people latch on to them as being possible, they run with them. If people unanimously reject them, they discredit, change topics, infuse distractions, and disinform.

It is such a predictable and transparent pattern by Aruba.

[Poochy]

Hi Poochy,

I think one reason Beth was pretty sure early on that Natalee had died was because she was told that Natalee probably was, based on the amount of blood in the Kalpoes' car. You know - the blood that miraculously turned to chocolate later on. 

Didn't vanderStrateen say that she was dead, he knew it because "I have seen..."  blah, blah, blah.

He said something around June 5th. or 6th...not sure if it was that one or something else.  I looked for it a couple of weeks back and couldn't come up with the one for that date. We were discussing the mattress at that time, I think.

What Does van der Straten Know About Natalee Holloway?
h/t to Hasibokus - read more there.

In a Dutch interview Aruban Police Superintendent Jan van der Straten told the reporter that he doesn’t believe that Natalee is still alive.

With regard to Natalee’s status, van der Straaten gave the following statement to a Dutch reporter:

Translation:

Rep: Any hopes for a positive outcome?

Jan: You always have to be hopeful, but I don’t believe anymore that we will find Natalee alive.

Rep: Why not?

Jan: Because I know the details of the investigation and you don't!

Update: Apparently the translation was first provided by reader repo.

Update2 from a reader:

The correct translation of what Mr. Van der Straten said, i.e., Omdat ik het
onderzoek ken en u niet, is: "Because I am an investigator (a policeman) and you
are not." 

It is not, as earlier reported, "Because I know the details and you don't."

Friday, July 01, 2005 at 03:09 PM in Natalee Holloway | Permalink
http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2005/07/what_does_van_d.html

Looks like the date published for Hasibokus was June 11 so somewhere around there...



Mum, You and Tyler gave me the idea to do a GRITS avatar, Girls raised in the South, but I can never make them fit right... 

Thanks everybody - I guess Beth found something out the day of the pic of her collapsing in the arms of the two ALE guys (I think that's who they were) - she had a blue top/white pants I think in that pic. I don't have that pic, but I think everybody has seen it - who can't forget the anguish on her face in that pic.

[Tylergal]

It was not $10,000.  It was $400.  Who owed that amount in gambling debts and what amount did Paulus withdraw?

[BUCKSHOT]

Thanks everybody - I guess Beth found something out the day of the pic of her collapsing in the arms of the two ALE guys (I think that's who they were) - she had a blue top/white pants I think in that pic. I don't have that pic, but I think everybody has seen it - who can't forget the anguish on her face in that pic.

Was that before or after the day she was forced to go on national televion to apologize to those involved for unsubstantiated accusations in their collective directions?

 

[Poochy]

In my opinion:

<snippet>
(4) Do you think Paulus would really have to pay off his friends. We do not know whose names were bleeped out, but we sure can imagine. Dompig, VanderStraaten, Vocking, Judge_____, Jacobs, Jansen, Mos. These people are Paulus' friends or controlled by Paulus' friends. Why would he have to pay them off? They, too, were involved in the cover-up and would be compelled not to reveal information, concerning their own involvement(s), for fear of global scrutiny and/or corruption charges.

Sure - it's Aruba. They pull out their tin cup/dark shade routine whenever they're asked to do something.

Even Dave claims the lead investigator, Dennis Jacobs, asked Dave how much money he had

[BUCKSHOT]

Any guesses on the amount of people
(a) invoved in the crime(s)?
(b) involved in the cover-up?

I guess:
(a) 7 people - Joran, Satish, Deepak, Paulus, Freddy, 2 other friends
and (b) 8 people - Dompig, Jansen, VanderSraaten, Jacobs, Vocking, a judge or 2, and another person.

[BUCKSHOT]

Any guesses on the amount of people
(a) invoved in the crime(s)?
(b) involved in the cover-up?

I guess:
(a) 7 people - Joran, Satish, Deepak, Paulus, Freddy, 2 other friends
and (b) 10 people - Dompig, Jansen, VanderSraaten, Jacobs, Vocking, a judge or 2, and 3 other people.

I revised my answer. Subject to further revision...

[MumInOhio]

Anyone know what exactly Beth is referring to here...1 Hour 20 minutes...TIA

snipped Beth

And it's hard to deny that conversation with his father. And it was definitely a tight window. I know that. I know he had a tight window of that night of what he said he did. And if you have an accident, it sure is hard to think that quick on your feet. An hour and 20 minutes -- what did he have, an hour and 20 minutes?

VAN SUSTEREN: Not much time.

I don't have the timeline in front of me, and my memory may not serve me as well as I would like at times, but off the top of my head, I think Beth is referring to the time when 'something bad happened' and the 4am pick up.  Now, I'll have to go look at a timeline to see.

Thanks 2NJS...I have pretty much discarded a lot of the timeline that deals with the statements and phone calls. JQK said he didn't see those records IIRC. Just trying to figure out what Beth believes to be true.

2.45 to 4.05 = 1 hour and 20 minutes.

Gardener to Pond Witness?

[martini]

Morning! IMO the recorded conversation between Joran and his father is the real thing. Joran wanted to tell the truth but Greta screwed up. This open window when Joran was weak is now shut for good.

[Tamikosmom]

In my opinion:

(1) This interview from Joran to Greta was scripted. Joran knew it would be televised; therefore, it was done with a definite purpose. Greta asked him a few questions which may have taken him out of his comfort zone which led to his standing up. "Joran, you said you wanted to get this off of your chest. How are we supposed to believe you if you are being evasive on this question" He may have wanted to tell the real truth (not the sex slave story) but knew better. He was instructed not too. He only finished the interview because he knew he would come off looking like the hot-headed kid that he is. Leopards do not lose their spots. Denying the whole stroy through email was his way of following the trend of discrediting his statements through an admitted habitual lying disorder.

(2) Once Joran knew of tape recording his father with the chip, he probably pulled out his other phone and made his dad (Daury) aware of the plan. It was a great opportunity for both, again, to follow a script of what story they wanted out there in the public. Like someone else said, do you think they would be speaking in English to one another when their language of choice was Papiamento? It was a well devised plan. Paulus had to play his part so as to come off as believable, lending credibility to Joran's fabricated confession of the so-called truth. It was a very transparent and weak effort.

(3) Multiple persons have sat in a room for hours and hours, sifting through information. They are taking known facts (ones that can not be refuted) and incorporating them into this latest concocted and well thought out story. Additionally, they are mixing in aspects that they want everyone to believe. This includes keeping thought off of the real crime scene(s). Additionally, they seek to cover as many bases as possible. They want to stick to parts of the story that people have latched on to (whether truthful or not) and run with those.

(4) Do you think Paulus would really have to pay off his friends. We do not know whose names were bleeped out, but we sure can imagine. Dompig, VanderStraaten, Vocking, Judge_____, Jacobs, Jansen, Mos. These people are Paulus' friends or controlled by Paulus' friends. Why would he have to pay them off? They, too, were involved in the cover-up and would be compelled not to reveal information, concerning their own involvement(s), for fear of global scrutiny and/or corruption charges.

(5) In conjunction with (3), there are laying the foundation for the possibility of the contents of the trap being confirmed as remains of NH. Joran turned her over to someone, who must have murdered and disposed of her body before getting to far from the island. What a waste of $10k...Or better yet, this person brought her back to the location to frame poor old high-rolling sporter Joran. What a joke...

(6) No one can rewind time. Everyone knows how critical the first 48-72 hours are in an investigation. Since the cover-up began immediately, they were buying time from the start. All focus was shifted away from the real evidence and truth so as to allow time for the clean up crew. There were a team of corrupt professionals who did their part in keeping evidence of the crime suppressed. Blood stains were cleaned, rocks were painted, witnesses were interviewed by designated persons (who asked softball questions), car seats were removed, search warrants were blocked, physical evidence was mishandled and/or purposefully lost, witnesses (those not afraid to come forth due to intimidation) were discredited and deported, peripheral participants were re-located or kept unknown, disinformants were hard at work on TV and internet steering the investigation in the wrong direction, and on and on.

(7) I am surprised that names were mentioned by Joran. I can not imagine who devised that part of the plan and how they will deal with that. I suppose they will not have to as they will discredit Joran's whole interview as being a lie. I was still taken back by it, though. Mentioning names of bribed officials by Paulus was divulging a little too much information by the stoner.

( I still wonder, to this day, the role of the Kalpoes. Their role is much more than just being there with Joran. I just can not put my finger on it.

(9) Aruba fought very hard in the beginning to block the role of any other international police role in the investigation on grounds of jurisdiction. Anyone other than them can only act as an advisor. Other agencies can surely test results, at their own expense or billed (doubt it). But, Aruba can send them anything they want to test. (Example: Here..Test this car seat with alleged blood on it. If the international agency is sent a replaced car seat with chocolate and cleaning fluid, what can their finding possibly be besides chocolate and cleaning fluid. Aruba then announces to the world the findings. The chain of command is what is important but never spoken of due to disinformants pushing the agenda of negative reults of the particular tested item). Aruba can make this investigation go however it sees fit. They can allow/disallow witness statements, evidence, etc so as to fit their agenda. Court proceedings may seem to follow normalcy, but the man with the robe knows the role and outcome so desired and has been instructed how to rule so as to fit an agenda.

Just some random thoughts. Does anyone else agree (or disagree)?

For the most part ... I am one with ya BUCKSHOT!!!

Thanks

Janet

[texasmom]

[sharon]

Thanks 2NJS...I have pretty much discarded a lot of the timeline that deals with the statements and phone calls. JQK said he didn't see those records IIRC. Just trying to figure out what Beth believes to be true.

2.45 to 4.05 = 1 hour and 20 minutes.

Gardener to Pond Witness?

http://www.hollowaycase.com/

These are 'excerpts' from timeline by Shizaru

I am not saying I believe these entries to be true (or false) -- just trying to come up with Beth's 1 hr 20 minutes.


1:00 am: CnCs closes, Joran, Satish, and Natalee leave CnCs together.


2:26-2:34 am: Joran calls Deepak from his cell phone (DZNH)

During the call, Joran talks to Deepak in Papi and Dutch so that Natalee will not understand. Deepak asks what happened and Joran boasts that she had given him a blow job. Deepak says that Joran is a lucky guy, and he will come and pick him up (DZNH).

During the call. Joran tells Deepak he is walking home and is in the vicinity of the McDonalds on Palm Beach. Joran is breathing heavily. He says he is walking home barefoot, because he took his shoes off to go in the water with Natalee and could not find them again. He also says he left Natalee "passed out" on the beach (D 6/11, D 6/16)

[MumInOhio]

TM...do your recall when and where that was...any chance the HI on June 10th? TIA

[texasmom]

TM...do your recall when and where that was...any chance the HI on June 10th? TIA

Sorry mum, I'm not sure.  But I think if you're not right, you're very close.

[Tamikosmom]

On the Record w/Greta

http://www.foxnews.com/ontherecord/index.html


VIDEOS:

November 25, 2008

Why Believe Joran?
Van der Sloots Lawyer on OTR Interview

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=3223105&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/ontherecord/index.html


Confronting Joran's Dad
Holloway Suspect's Dad Confronted

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=3223069&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/ontherecord/index.html


In Need of Closure
Holloway's Mom on Joran's New Story

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=3223100&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/ontherecord/index.html


++++++++

TRANSCRIPT:

JOE TACOPINA
JOHN Q. KELLY
PAULUS VAN DER SLOOT
BETH HOLLOWAY
JORAN'S TEACHER

On the Record w/ Greta
Fallout From Joran van der Sloot's 'On the Record' Interview
Wednesday, November 26, 2008

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,457715,00.html