Natalee Case Discussion #781 12/3/08 - 12/5/08

[Keepthefaith]

No, we couldn't find much about her except that she was married.

They really have a great way of making sure information is very scarce on Aruba..If you don't exist nobody will miss you..Less information the better!I agree with a previous poster.The internet has really been a key to keeping this train movin down the track!Off till the morning...

[SS]

SS, wouldn't that be a lot of trouble for a girl's body that was of no interest to anyone, other than her family?  And, that would presuppose that the crab cage would be found over three years later--not a likely outcome for which to take such preparation.  The concept of burying a body that someone doesn't want found with another body (in the same casket) is fairly well known.  It's been described in stories for a long time. 

We were going on the theory that Natalee had been moved several times, and we don't know the date the whoever was in the fish trap was put there.  If there was a closed casket at Jalitza it would be an easy way to hide Natalee.  It wouldn't have been possible for there to have been an open casket, because Natalee had been dead for several days.  Perhaps Jalitza's death was such that there wouldn't have been an open casket.  Many of the dirty hands are members of the Masonic Lodge and they would have been able to arrange this.  By the time that Jalitza died, the H/Ts were actively searching for Natalee and the pressure was on by Beth.  As Shango said ... hidden in plain sight.

[billb's daughter]

Janssen will be next.

I wonder why an attorney for the security guards wouldn't jump on this and sue for compensation? If Paulus got something, they must be entitled. Unless their black though?

Have you read of the absolute atrocities that have occurred on this tiny island since sweet Natalee disappeared? This is a VERY VERY dangerous place with whatever groups operate there. I am sure that everyone there knows where the line is in the sand. And to step over it... means danger.

Let's see.. NH disappeared. Horrible deaths, beheadings (some called suicides???) one a torture, (hands nailed to a piece of wood and dismemberment and then burned alive near some cave). Many many many...too strange to be a normal homicide rate.

There are many atrocities that have happened on aruba, as well as many other Caribbean islands. While this is true, the fate of Natalee should not be blended into those atrocities, as they are not related in any way.  Natalee was an American teenager celebrating her high school graduation, along with 100 plus classmates, on an island that promotes itself to Americans (their cash cow) as a fun loving and safe environment.  When and if the details surrounding Natalee's disappearance emerge, Aruba and their governing country of Holland will be exposed to the graphic realities of a third world view that women, in particular, are only required to serve at the whim of the male population. In their view, if a problem arises, women are considered disposable. That is what happened to Natalee, and the cover up by aruba and Holland confirms that there is no justice for women/children in their world.
But Aruba/Holland underestimated the will of Natalee's family and the will of Monkeys to expose the cover up. 

[AZLady]

SS, wouldn't that be a lot of trouble for a girl's body that was of no interest to anyone, other than her family?  And, that would presuppose that the crab cage would be found over three years later--not a likely outcome for which to take such preparation.  The concept of burying a body that someone doesn't want found with another body (in the same casket) is fairly well known.  It's been described in stories for a long time. 

We were going on the theory that Natalee had been moved several times, and we don't know the date the whoever was in the fish trap was put there.  If there was a closed casket at Jalitza it would be an easy way to hide Natalee.  It wouldn't have been possible for there to have been an open casket, because Natalee had been dead for several days.  Perhaps Jalitza's death was such that there wouldn't have been an open casket.  Many of the dirty hands are members of the Masonic Lodge and they would have been able to arrange this.  By the time that Jalitza died, the H/Ts were actively searching for Natalee and the pressure was on by Beth.  As Shango said ... hidden in plain sight.

I thought that the theory was that Natalee may have been buried in the same casket as Jalitza.  Even if there was an open casket funeral, Natalee's body may have been placed in the casket after the funeral but before burial.  I've even heard some theorize that caskets might be made with false compartments that could hold another body, but that seems a bit far-fetched to me.  This theory would be difficult to prove as there has to be good reason to exhume a body and permission must be had from the family, if there is not a court order.   Generally, it's not done, so this is considered a likely place to dispose of an unwanted body. 

Personally, and no offense, but I think this theory is a distraction.  There's no evidence or even insinuations of this happening.  It also is an idea that has been featured in crime stories and other literature for many, many years.  This may be where it came from...who knows?

[billb's daughter]

I like KISS...
CAPS theory is based on Natalee's kidnapping and demise. Kermit's theory is on recovery of Natalee. CAPS and Kermit's theories may complement each others...they should not be considered all or nothing...
Greta/JQK firmly put the ball in MOS's/Holland's court! What say you hero B?

[caesu]

Greta just said it best.

Nobody or entity who can or could have, is or has done anything, and even now, nobody remembers what this is all about: Natalee.

Admissions of a cover up, and where are the authorities?

One would think that the Minister of Justice coming out
and saying that Van der Straaten and Paulus were guilty
of a cover-up would call for an immediate arrest of those
two at least.

You would think, but they tell us Natalee is dead, but call her a "disapperence" and don't tell us how they know? Yes, she is dead, but we don't have proof? Huh?

That is a cover up. Janssen and van der straaten have both declared Natalee dead.
And nobody is in jail, nobody.

Yes, one would think that the Minister of Justice coming out and saying that Van der Straaten and Paulus were guilty of a cover-up would call for an immediate arrest of those
two at least.  After all, they arrest in Aruba on mere suspicion and then sort it out when everyone is in jail.  So, why haven't they arrested these two, and more? 

Rudy Croes made these statements about Van der Straaten as a political response to Van der Straaten calling Aruban cops crooked.  I get the impression that Aruba sees these comments as political name-calling and posturing.  Where do these people draw the line?  I next expect Croes to backstep and say he didn't really mean it but was just trying to counter Van der Straaten's slander of his Aruban police.  This wouldn't surprise me a bit. 

Whether or not Aruba sees these comments as political name-calling and posturing....Greta and JQK are directing comments directly to Holland...Is there someone in Holland justice branch that will get off their a$$ and investigate? Hero B...where r u!

Hero Brinkman is doing all he can. but his party is only small in parlaiment.
so he can't force anything through if he doesn't get a majority.

today he was on a Dutch talkshow:
http://dewerelddraaitdoor.vara.nl/gezienindwdd.php?id=561

The Dutch police force commissioner Jan van der Straten has seriously obstructed the investigation into the disappearance of Natalee Holloway at the beginning stage. He did this to help the father of Joran with protecting his son, so explained the minister of justice of Aruba. According to PVV-er Hero Brinkman this shows again to how corrupt the Antilles are. He will ask for a parliamentary enquiry.

interesting coincidence is that Jan van der Straten wanted Hero Brinkman arrested for calling the island corrupt.

e-mail him, try to get him on American news shows.
just him being on American TV will generate more media attention in Aruba and The Netherlands too.
http://www.pvv.nl/index.php?option=com_facileforms&Itemid=114

i emailed Greta.

there is a window of opportunity this month to create a media hype.
there are a few factors that can fire the flames up and maybe get thing on collision course like a posted i few pages back.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4186.msg567171#msg567171

[AZLady]

Yes, billb.  And, everyone's theories have value as they give us food for thought.  I personally subscribe to the KISS theory, placing Joran and the 2K's squarely responsible with PVDS and others assisting in body disposal and coverup.  However, all the theories have helped us become better critical thinkers and gather information. 

[AZLady]

Caesu, would Hero Brinkman call for Interpol or another international force to investigate the corruption on Aruba? 

[billb's daughter]

Greta just said it best.

Nobody or entity who can or could have, is or has done anything, and even now, nobody remembers what this is all about: Natalee.

Admissions of a cover up, and where are the authorities?

One would think that the Minister of Justice coming out
and saying that Van der Straaten and Paulus were guilty
of a cover-up would call for an immediate arrest of those
two at least.

You would think, but they tell us Natalee is dead, but call her a "disapperence" and don't tell us how they know? Yes, she is dead, but we don't have proof? Huh?

That is a cover up. Janssen and van der straaten have both declared Natalee dead.
And nobody is in jail, nobody.

Yes, one would think that the Minister of Justice coming out and saying that Van der Straaten and Paulus were guilty of a cover-up would call for an immediate arrest of those
two at least.  After all, they arrest in Aruba on mere suspicion and then sort it out when everyone is in jail.  So, why haven't they arrested these two, and more? 

Rudy Croes made these statements about Van der Straaten as a political response to Van der Straaten calling Aruban cops crooked.  I get the impression that Aruba sees these comments as political name-calling and posturing.  Where do these people draw the line?  I next expect Croes to backstep and say he didn't really mean it but was just trying to counter Van der Straaten's slander of his Aruban police.  This wouldn't surprise me a bit. 

Whether or not Aruba sees these comments as political name-calling and posturing....Greta and JQK are directing comments directly to Holland...Is there someone in Holland justice branch that will get off their a$$ and investigate? Hero B...where r u!

Hero Brinkman is doing all he can. but his party is only small in parlaiment.
so he can't force anything through if he doesn't get a majority.

today he was on a Dutch talkshow:
http://dewerelddraaitdoor.vara.nl/gezienindwdd.php?id=561

The Dutch police force commissioner Jan van der Straten has seriously obstructed the investigation into the disappearance of Natalee Holloway at the beginning stage. He did this to help the father of Joran with protecting his son, so explained the minister of justice of Aruba. According to PVV-er Hero Brinkman this shows again to how corrupt the Antilles are. He will ask for a parliamentary enquiry.

interesting coincidence is that Jan van der Straten wanted Hero Brinkman arrested for calling the island corrupt.

e-mail him, try to get him on American news shows.
just him being on American TV will generate more media attention in Aruba and The Netherlands too.
http://www.pvv.nl/index.php?option=com_facileforms&Itemid=114

i emailed Greta.

there is a window of opportunity this month to create a media hype.
there are a few factors that can fire the flames up and maybe get thing on collision course like a posted i few pages back.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4186.msg567171#msg567171

Thanks Caesu.....Game plan for all those seeking Justice For Natalee...hold those empowered to investigate accountable by emailing/letter writing/phone call/messages by carrier pigeons....name calling/curses/rituals/wishing bad karma..... ok, I should have stopped at phone calls..

[AZLady]

I just emailed Hero Brinkman, as caesu suggested.  I asked him to call for a parliamentary inquiry and to consider involving Interpol in investigating this corruption.

[AZLady]

I wrote the email in English.  I hope he is either bilingual or has translators!   

[billb's daughter]

Yes, billb.  And, everyone's theories have value as they give us food for thought.  I personally subscribe to the KISS theory, placing Joran and the 2K's squarely responsible with PVDS and others assisting in body disposal and coverup.  However, all the theories have helped us become better critical thinkers and gather information. 

AZLady,
I am not discounting what you say...it may be right....I'm more cynical though, as Minnesota Dad says.. PAULASS is your perp, and his gang of judges...I think urine and the pimps are amply named...they procured Natalee for a late night party for his dad and accomplices at VDS home..anita was away...

[AZLady]

Yes, billb.  And, everyone's theories have value as they give us food for thought.  I personally subscribe to the KISS theory, placing Joran and the 2K's squarely responsible with PVDS and others assisting in body disposal and coverup.  However, all the theories have helped us become better critical thinkers and gather information. 

AZLady,
I am not discounting what you say...it may be right....I'm more cynical though, as Minnesota Dad says.. PAULASS is your perp, and his gang of judges...I think urine and the pimps are amply named...they procured Natalee for a late night party for his dad and accomplices at VDS home..anita was away...

billb, I agree.  I've vacillated between the party being all teenagers to it being elders and teens.  I've considered both and really haven't read any evidence that leans me one way or the other.  I do think the crime scene was the VDS home.  Why else obstruct a search?  If the crime scene where anywhere else, PVDS would have allowed a thorough search for vindication.  Natalee was there; Beth told us that when she entered that gate with Greta and I believe her.

[caesu]

Caesu, would Hero Brinkman call for Interpol or another international force to investigate the corruption on Aruba? 

i don't think that is going to happen. and i don't think Brinkman is going to ask for that.
because letting a international force investigate is in effect saying that the domestic police force isn't capable enough.
a sovereign country is just not going to do that. they might however ask for assistance from the FBI.
but i don't think Interpol is the organisation for that.

however Brinkman did yesterday ask for the Rijksrecherche to investigate the Aruba Police Force.
the Rijksrecherche has the task of investigating corruption in the police force.

(The National Police Internal Investigations Department or rijksrecherche)

Deployment of the rijksrecherche

Rijksrecherche investigations primarily focus on investigations against (semi) government officials (civil servants) who are suspected of punishable acts (criminal offences), whereby the integrity of justice and/or that of the public administration (the government) is at issue. On the basis of its independent position towards the various police forces, the rijksrecherche may also conduct investigations into the actions of police officers who in the performance of their duties used violence or were in default, as a result of which injuries occurred. The rijksrecherche therefore contributes to the monitoring and upholding of an incorruptible government. Our rule of law, each party involved, each citizen, but also the government itself, has a right thereto and has an enormous interest in that.

http://www.om.nl/vast_menu_blok/english/the_national_police/
(interesting read if you want to know how they work)

again, the problem is Brinkman's political party is small.
but lately he has gotten more support from other parties.

The Dutch Minister of Justice Ernst Hirsch Ballin (CDA) has expressed his concern about government corruption during talks with Prime Minister Nelson Oduber (MEP).

This is evident from his answer to Chamber questions which PVV Member of Parliament Hero Brinkman asked the Minister and the Secretary of State Ank Bijleveld-Schouten (CDA) on the 26th of June.

http://www.sxmislandtime.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2258:the-netherlands-worried-about-corruption-aruba&catid=31:general&Itemid=76

and now with Rudy Croes admitting to a cover up.
i believe there is a possibility for the sh*t hitting the fan.
i am only trying to think of ways to push the fan closer to hitting it. 

[AZLady]

The National Police Internal Investigations Department or rijksrecherche would be a good start.  However, wasn't there a special investigation unit sent from Holland to investigate the investigation of this case some time ago?  I remember press about a special group of investigators from Holland who set up an independent office on Aruba specifically to investigate this case. 

[caesu]

The National Police Internal Investigations Department or rijksrecherche would be a good start.  However, wasn't there a special investigation unit sent from Holland to investigate the investigation of this case some time ago?  I remember press about a special group of investigators from Holland who set up an independent office on Aruba specifically to investigate this case. 

i think that was the KLPD.
http://www.ad.nl/binnenland/article231050.ece?pageNumber=1

The Dutch police consists of 25 regional police forces and the National Police Services Agency (KLPD).

http://www.politie.nl/English/

[AZLady]

Yes, the KLPD.  Thank you for the reminder.  I suppose if the corrupt Arubans destroyed evidence as they came across it, there would be little for the KLPD to assess.

[billb's daughter]

Yes, billb.  And, everyone's theories have value as they give us food for thought.  I personally subscribe to the KISS theory, placing Joran and the 2K's squarely responsible with PVDS and others assisting in body disposal and coverup.  However, all the theories have helped us become better critical thinkers and gather information. 

AZLady,
I am not discounting what you say...it may be right....I'm more cynical though, as Minnesota Dad says.. PAULASS is your perp, and his gang of judges...I think urine and the pimps are amply named...they procured Natalee for a late night party for his dad and accomplices at VDS home..anita was away...

billb, I agree.  I've vacillated between the party being all teenagers to it being elders and teens.  I've considered both and really haven't read any evidence that leans me one way or the other.  I do think the crime scene was the VDS home.  Why else obstruct a search?  If the crime scene where anywhere else, PVDS would have allowed a thorough search for vindication.  Natalee was there; Beth told us that when she entered that gate with Greta and I believe her.

Yep..if it was only the pimps....Aruba could apologize, arrest urine until he was 18 - 21...return Natalee to her family.
The evidence would have shown a much more sinister plot by adults....had to be covered up..no body, no case.....

[AZLady]

Or, the evidence may show a notably violent attack on Natalee that PVDS felt a need to coverup so his son wouldn't spend more time in prison.  But, even in this case, with the help of Aruban judges, they could have claimed Joran was mentally ill, and given him time served with some counseling or treatment.  I wonder sometimes how much of this coverup became a self-perpetuating thing that, once set into motion, couldn't be stopped or altered.

[Buckeye]

Dr. Phil/K2 update:

 12/04/2008 at 08:30 am in Department 69, Edward A. Ferns, Presiding
Motion to Compel (Further Interrogatory Responsesand Production of Documents (4);2) Second Motion to Dismiss andRequest for Terminating Sanctions3) Case Management Conference4) Re Counsel Pro Hac Vice) - Matter continued

Future Hearings

01/26/2009 at 08:30 am in department 69 at 111 North Hill Street, Los Angeles, CA 90012
Motion to Compel (Further Interrogatory Responsesand Production of Documents (4);2) Second Motion to Dismiss andRequest for Terminating Sanctions3) Case Management Conference)



12/03/2008 Order (ORDER RE STIPULATION OF THE PARTIES TO CONTINUE THE RULING ON DEFENDANT'S MOTION TO STRIKE COMPLAINT, DEFENDANTS' SECOND MOTION TO DISMISS, PLAINTIFF'S MOTIONS TO COMPEL THE PRO HAC VICE)
Filed by Attorney for Defendant/Respondent

12/03/2008 Stipulation (STIPULATION OF THE PARTIES TO CONTINUE THE RULING ON DEFENDANTS' SPECIAL MOTION TO STRIKE COMPLAINT DEFENDANTS' SECOND MOTION TO DISMISS, PLAINTIFF'S MOTIONS TO COMPEL THE PRO HAC VICE APPLICATIN)
Filed by Attorney for Defendant/Respondent

http://www.lasuperiorcourt.org/civilCaseSummary/index.asp?CaseType=Civil

Case # BC363201