Natalee Case Discussion #781 12/3/08 - 12/5/08

[wreck]

So is there a consensus that Natalee's remains were in that cage?  If so, Joran contacting Greta and implicating his father in the human trafficking scenario, knowing that Aruba had already taken care of the evidence, only makes sense if Joran was just looking for money.  Or, if Joran was setting up an alibi for not knowing that Natalee was dumped in the ocean. Which makes no sense for him to tell Greta eight hours after the interview that his new story was a lie.

If Greta was right in asking Joran if the 'recorded calls between him and his father' occurred in January, that time frame would match up with the activities surrounding the cleaning of the cage.  Was that a guess by Greta, or is that what Joran told her before the sitdown interview?  Seems like an odd coincidence to me.

Oh, OK. I can't take it anymore, so I'll just ask. Please be gentle with the stupid mod that hasn't properly kept up.........

If Natalee's remains were in the cage, why didn't they bring them up and announce to the world, "WE FOUND HER!"

Tim was there when they found the cage. I saw him. Didn't I?

Remember now.................be kind to animals and fools! Thank you very much, loyal monkeys. 

OK CBB and it's because you makes us such beautiful avitars.   

1.  Silvetti's businesses were in trouble.  He wanted to start new businesses with oil and an oil pipeline from Aruba to Chavez in Colombia.  He needed money.
2.  He illegally sold off his shares of stock and that is why the SEC is after him.
3.  Before he started his new oil business, he needed to have a geological scan of the ocean floor.  Doing those scans costs lots of money.
4.  He agreed to volunteer his ship, crew, and equipment to search for a missing American woman in the same area.  He scans the ocean floor looking for Natalee, but really he's doing oil work.
5.  Most of his expenses for the Persistence search were written off on his corporate tax returns because it was charity work and a donation that he was doing.  By looking for Natalee, he was able to map the ocean for free.
6.  Natalee was found in the end of December.  Oh no, what can he do?  He can't keep mapping the ocean floor for free because he just found the missing American woman.  So, the trap contents were turned over to ALE, nothing was ever in that trap. and he continued to search for Natalee and map for oil for another 6 to 8 weeks -at very little expense to himself.

That sounds perfect,  but where are the remains now????

with ALE 

[crazybabyborg]

OMG!!!

I'm speechless!!!

OMG!!!

Thank you, SS, Magnolia, and keepthefaith, and all who put it in a nutshell for me.

OMG!!!

 

[SS]

From Janet:

I can only assume that the Persistence undertaking was exactly what Private Eye claimed ... a joint endeavor with ALE to locate evidence to allow it to be destroyed.  The game was fixed but Tim Miller and ... in the beginning ... Kyle were pawns in that game.

******************

Janet - I think you are absolutely correct.  Remember Kermit told us that Kyle first came to Kermit with all of the information and photographs last Spring because he wanted Beth and the FBI to know what was found in the fish cage. Then, Kyle made a really bad choice and never went to Beth or the FBI.  He chose to play the other game instead.  It's all about character and integrity.

[Keepthefaith]

OK...I'll try this one.
They were not really there to look for Natalee, but to map
the ocean between Aruba and Venezuela.
They found the cage early Christmas morning.  Tim Miller
and ABC were on the boat at the time.
They sent Tim and Dave on the false lead to Costa Rica to
get Tim off the boat.  ABC went home.
They say that they did not dive on the cage until Jan7th
when the Aruban divers went down from their boat and
retrieved all the evidence to their boat.  Nobody objected.
There are pictures here of all the evidence in plastic bags.
Silvetti and Scheafer didn't want the contents of the trap known
because they wanted to continue with their mapping project
under the guise of hunting for Natalee.

So do we know that ALE even has the evidence or does one of the grave robbers potentially have the contents???Just a thought...

[Lifesong]

I think its safe to say that the evidence from the cage has been destroyed.  I don't imagine it'll ever turn up.  All that's left of it now are the pictures.

Can't the FBI supoena the rover's videotape of the evidence recovery dive from Silvetti?

[wreck]

OK...I'll try this one.
They were not really there to look for Natalee, but to map
the ocean between Aruba and Venezuela.
They found the cage early Christmas morning.  Tim Miller
and ABC were on the boat at the time.
They sent Tim and Dave on the false lead to Costa Rica to
get Tim off the boat.  ABC went home.
They say that they did not dive on the cage until Jan7th
when the Aruban divers went down from their boat and
retrieved all the evidence to their boat.  Nobody objected.
There are pictures here of all the evidence in plastic bags.
Silvetti and Scheafer didn't want the contents of the trap known
because they wanted to continue with their mapping project
under the guise of hunting for Natalee.

So do we know that ALE even has the evidence or does one of the grave robbers potentially have the contents???Just a thought...

Well, isn't the date of the ROV pics of the cage with "bagged" evidence dated on Jan. 7th? That was when ALE collected the evidence. I would assume ALE has it all -- but who knows for sure????

[crazybabyborg]

We do have pictures. I clearly remember a video of Tim looking at the cage and divers going down to have a closer look. They indicated it wasn't Natalee. I know I saw that! Does anyone else remember it?

[2NJSons_Mom]

OK...I'll try this one.
They were not really there to look for Natalee, but to map
the ocean between Aruba and Venezuela.
They found the cage early Christmas morning.  Tim Miller
and ABC were on the boat at the time.
They sent Tim and Dave on the false lead to Costa Rica to
get Tim off the boat.  ABC went home.
They say that they did not dive on the cage until Jan7th
when the Aruban divers went down from their boat and
retrieved all the evidence to their boat.  Nobody objected.
There are pictures here of all the evidence in plastic bags.
Silvetti and Scheafer didn't want the contents of the trap known
because they wanted to continue with their mapping project
under the guise of hunting for Natalee.

So do we know that ALE even has the evidence or does one of the grave robbers potentially have the contents???Just a thought...

Well, isn't the date of the ROV pics of the cage with "bagged" evidence dated on Jan. 7th? That was when ALE collected the evidence. I would assume ALE has it all -- but who knows for sure????

Pics of bags with evidence dated 1/7/08....we haven't seen divers photographed on that date, have we??  If the ROV was taking video or pics, there should be more, imo.... OE mentioned the boat on the trap site on 1/11 & 1/12.....am I over thinking?

[Keepthefaith]

OK...I'll try this one.
They were not really there to look for Natalee, but to map
the ocean between Aruba and Venezuela.
They found the cage early Christmas morning.  Tim Miller
and ABC were on the boat at the time.
They sent Tim and Dave on the false lead to Costa Rica to
get Tim off the boat.  ABC went home.
They say that they did not dive on the cage until Jan7th
when the Aruban divers went down from their boat and
retrieved all the evidence to their boat.  Nobody objected.
There are pictures here of all the evidence in plastic bags.
Silvetti and Scheafer didn't want the contents of the trap known
because they wanted to continue with their mapping project
under the guise of hunting for Natalee.

So do we know that ALE even has the evidence or does one of the grave robbers potentially have the contents???Just a thought...

Well, isn't the date of the ROV pics of the cage with "bagged" evidence dated on Jan. 7th? That was when ALE collected the evidence. I would assume ALE has it all -- but who knows for sure????

Appreciate the clarifications Wreck.My brain is spinnin.Slow down.LOL

[SS]

OK...I'll try this one.
They were not really there to look for Natalee, but to map
the ocean between Aruba and Venezuela.
They found the cage early Christmas morning.  Tim Miller
and ABC were on the boat at the time.
They sent Tim and Dave on the false lead to Costa Rica to
get Tim off the boat.  ABC went home.
They say that they did not dive on the cage until Jan7th
when the Aruban divers went down from their boat and
retrieved all the evidence to their boat.  Nobody objected.
There are pictures here of all the evidence in plastic bags.
Silvetti and Scheafer didn't want the contents of the trap known
because they wanted to continue with their mapping project
under the guise of hunting for Natalee.

You got it Mags!!!

There are a few things... ABC didn't do their filming until later in January.  By the time they arrived there was an empty cage, if it was even the same cage.  Nobody was there on Christmas morning except the crew.  Also, ALE did not know that Eduardo Mansur and the other divers were being filmed.  The ROV went down with them, but the divers didn't realize that the video was turned on.  ALE didn't know about these photograph, either.  I'll bet Mos just soiled his undergarments.


Now, let's complicate things even more.  What if the theory by Caps that Natalee is in the Masonic cemetery is true.  Carpe figured out that if Natalee is in the cemetery, she is probably in the crypt of a woman named Jalitza Wever.  Jalitza looks like Natalee.  Is it possible that Jalitza Wever is in the cage and Natalee is in the crypt?  How will we know since the Persisitence crew gave the contents of the trap to ALE?

[Lifesong]

Copied from Tamikosmom's post a couple of pages back:

Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #897 on: Today at 03:02:28 AM »

Kyle: “I did not feel the same and we had a major difference in opinion. He [John Silvetti] was the one who never pressed ALE to be completely open with us with the trap evidence. I would have forced them to. However, John was the one paying my invoices so I was forced to sit back and hope for the best.”

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564753;topicseen#msg564753

So..we now know that Kyle was NOT a volunteer.  Am I the only one that thought he was?  Was Silvetti paid by TES?  Has that ever even been asked?

[Magnolia]

OK...I'll try this one.
They were not really there to look for Natalee, but to map
the ocean between Aruba and Venezuela.
They found the cage early Christmas morning.  Tim Miller
and ABC were on the boat at the time.
They sent Tim and Dave on the false lead to Costa Rica to
get Tim off the boat.  ABC went home.
They say that they did not dive on the cage until Jan7th
when the Aruban divers went down from their boat and
retrieved all the evidence to their boat.  Nobody objected.
There are pictures here of all the evidence in plastic bags.
Silvetti and Scheafer didn't want the contents of the trap known
because they wanted to continue with their mapping project
under the guise of hunting for Natalee.

So do we know that ALE even has the evidence or does one of the grave robbers potentially have the contents???Just a thought...

I have had the same thoughts.  Maybe ALE didn't get the right
evidence.  Those bags do not look like REAL evidence bags
There are no imprinted labels on the side of them.

[billb's daughter]

So is there a consensus that Natalee's remains were in that cage?  If so, Joran contacting Greta and implicating his father in the human trafficking scenario, knowing that Aruba had already taken care of the evidence, only makes sense if Joran was just looking for money.  Or, if Joran was setting up an alibi for not knowing that Natalee was dumped in the ocean. Which makes no sense for him to tell Greta eight hours after the interview that his new story was a lie.

If Greta was right in asking Joran if the 'recorded calls between him and his father' occurred in January, that time frame would match up with the activities surrounding the cleaning of the cage.  Was that a guess by Greta, or is that what Joran told her before the sitdown interview?  Seems like an odd coincidence to me.

Oh, OK. I can't take it anymore, so I'll just ask. Please be gentle with the stupid mod that hasn't properly kept up.........

If Natalee's remains were in the cage, why didn't they bring them up and announce to the world, "WE FOUND HER!"

Tim was there when they found the cage. I saw him. Didn't I?

Remember now.................be kind to animals and fools! Thank you very much, loyal monkeys. 

OK CBB and it's because you makes us such beautiful avitars.   

1.  Silvetti's businesses were in trouble.  He wanted to start new businesses with oil and an oil pipeline from Aruba to Chavez in Colombia.  He needed money.
2.  He illegally sold off his shares of stock and that is why the SEC is after him.
3.  Before he started his new oil business, he needed to have a geological scan of the ocean floor.  Doing those scans costs lots of money.
4.  He agreed to volunteer his ship, crew, and equipment to search for a missing American woman in the same area.  He scans the ocean floor looking for Natalee, but really he's doing oil work.
5.  Most of his expenses for the Persistence search were written off on his corporate tax returns because it was charity work and a donation that he was doing.  By looking for Natalee, he was able to map the ocean for free.
6.  Natalee was found in the end of December.  Oh no, what can he do?  He can't keep mapping the ocean floor for free because he just found the missing American woman.  So, the trap contents were turned over to ALE, nothing was ever in that trap. and he continued to search for Natalee and map for oil for another 6 to 8 weeks -at very little expense to himself.

I'm always impressed with the depth of experience/investigating skills/understanding/dedication that Monkeys bring in seeking the truth for Natalee and her family!
This pretty much sums up the last few weeks of postings by keeping the KISS principle forefront in analytical processing.
There are some serious implications in the calling out of Persistence/OE and CAPS and Hotshot (and others) if you believe Kermit has the big picture truth (I do), but at any rate....the point is still to find out the  truth surrounding the disappearance of Natalee. Keep charging Monkeys! V/r,billb

[wreck]

OK...I'll try this one.
They were not really there to look for Natalee, but to map
the ocean between Aruba and Venezuela.
They found the cage early Christmas morning.  Tim Miller
and ABC were on the boat at the time.
They sent Tim and Dave on the false lead to Costa Rica to
get Tim off the boat.  ABC went home.
They say that they did not dive on the cage until Jan7th
when the Aruban divers went down from their boat and
retrieved all the evidence to their boat.  Nobody objected.
There are pictures here of all the evidence in plastic bags.
Silvetti and Scheafer didn't want the contents of the trap known
because they wanted to continue with their mapping project
under the guise of hunting for Natalee.

So do we know that ALE even has the evidence or does one of the grave robbers potentially have the contents???Just a thought...

Well, isn't the date of the ROV pics of the cage with "bagged" evidence dated on Jan. 7th? That was when ALE collected the evidence. I would assume ALE has it all -- but who knows for sure????

Pics of bags with evidence dated 1/7/08....we haven't seen divers photographed on that date, have we??  If the ROV was taking video or pics, there should be more, imo.... OE mentioned the boat on the trap site on 1/11 & 1/12.....am I over thinking?

Not at all -- I forgot the "Panter" was there on the 11th and 12th. Anything could have happened between 1/7 and 1/12!

[2NJSons_Mom]

No pics of the items being bagged....no pictures of the items being brought up......

[Tamikosmom]

So is there a consensus that Natalee's remains were in that cage?  If so, Joran contacting Greta and implicating his father in the human trafficking scenario, knowing that Aruba had already taken care of the evidence, only makes sense if Joran was just looking for money.  Or, if Joran was setting up an alibi for not knowing that Natalee was dumped in the ocean. Which makes no sense for him to tell Greta eight hours after the interview that his new story was a lie.

If Greta was right in asking Joran if the 'recorded calls between him and his father' occurred in January, that time frame would match up with the activities surrounding the cleaning of the cage.  Was that a guess by Greta, or is that what Joran told her before the sitdown interview?  Seems like an odd coincidence to me.

Oh, OK. I can't take it anymore, so I'll just ask. Please be gentle with the stupid mod that hasn't properly kept up.........

If Natalee's remains were in the cage, why didn't they bring them up and announce to the world, "WE FOUND HER!"

Tim was there when they found the cage. I saw him. Didn't I?

Remember now.................be kind to animals and fools! Thank you very much, loyal monkeys. 

OK CBB and it's because you makes us such beautiful avitars.   

1.  Silvetti's businesses were in trouble.  He wanted to start new businesses with oil and an oil pipeline from Aruba to Chavez in Colombia.  He needed money.
2.  He illegally sold off his shares of stock and that is why the SEC is after him.
3.  Before he started his new oil business, he needed to have a geological scan of the ocean floor.  Doing those scans costs lots of money.
4.  He agreed to volunteer his ship, crew, and equipment to search for a missing American woman in the same area.  He scans the ocean floor looking for Natalee, but really he's doing oil work.
5.  Most of his expenses for the Persistence search were written off on his corporate tax returns because it was charity work and a donation that he was doing.  By looking for Natalee, he was able to map the ocean for free.
6.  Natalee was found in the end of December.  Oh no, what can he do?  He can't keep mapping the ocean floor for free because he just found the missing American woman.  So, the trap contents were turned over to ALE, nothing was ever in that trap. and he continued to search for Natalee and map for oil for another 6 to 8 weeks -at very little expense to himself.

That sounds perfect,  but where are the remains now????

In that bottomless drawer in the Aruban Prosecutor's office where all the other Natalee Holloway evidence and witness statements are filed.

Janet

[WhiskeyGirl]

So is there a consensus that Natalee's remains were in that cage?  If so, Joran contacting Greta and implicating his father in the human trafficking scenario, knowing that Aruba had already taken care of the evidence, only makes sense if Joran was just looking for money.  Or, if Joran was setting up an alibi for not knowing that Natalee was dumped in the ocean. Which makes no sense for him to tell Greta eight hours after the interview that his new story was a lie.

If Greta was right in asking Joran if the 'recorded calls between him and his father' occurred in January, that time frame would match up with the activities surrounding the cleaning of the cage.  Was that a guess by Greta, or is that what Joran told her before the sitdown interview?  Seems like an odd coincidence to me.

I tend to focus on what the stories do for Joran.  IMHO they ensure that HE is not the last person known to be with a person that turns up dead.  


Dropped her at the HI, not dead yet.  Security guard witness.

Left her on the beach, not dead yet.  Black couple witnesses, other couples.

She was shaking, it didn't look good, not dead yet.  So, I called a friend with a boat instead of 911.

She was drunk, I sold her for some pizza and beer money, maybe like $10,000 and watched her go away on a boat, not dead yet.  She was making noises when she left, not dead yet.


Maybe JVDS didn't realize that human trafficking is a bad thing?  Maybe he grew up in a place where this deception/practice is common?

From the Aruba perspective, who could be in that trap?  Amy Bradley?  Max DeVries?  Missing prision guard?  Natalee Holloway?  Some unknown unfortunate?

Who is Joran selling these girls to?  

How long has it taken to get DNA or any lab results back from the NFI in this case?  IIRC, I read that the NFI has long waiting lists for any case.  I seem to remember some posters suggesting/asking to know why Natalee should receive special attention and move to the beginning of the NFI line.  Sometimes, I think, one might wait forever.  

If someone had limited time/money and two choices, what would they choose to do?  Let the money run out while waiting for results from the NFI, and make no additional progress?  Or, spend the remaining funds searching for a missing person?  

A third factor is the weather.  IIRC, the weather had started to change and made searching more difficult.  

[Keepthefaith]

OK...I'll try this one.
They were not really there to look for Natalee, but to map
the ocean between Aruba and Venezuela.
They found the cage early Christmas morning.  Tim Miller
and ABC were on the boat at the time.
They sent Tim and Dave on the false lead to Costa Rica to
get Tim off the boat.  ABC went home.
They say that they did not dive on the cage until Jan7th
when the Aruban divers went down from their boat and
retrieved all the evidence to their boat.  Nobody objected.
There are pictures here of all the evidence in plastic bags.
Silvetti and Scheafer didn't want the contents of the trap known
because they wanted to continue with their mapping project
under the guise of hunting for Natalee.

So do we know that ALE even has the evidence or does one of the grave robbers potentially have the contents???Just a thought...

Well, isn't the date of the ROV pics of the cage with "bagged" evidence dated on Jan. 7th? That was when ALE collected the evidence. I would assume ALE has it all -- but who knows for sure????

Pics of bags with evidence dated 1/7/08....we haven't seen divers photographed on that date, have we??  If the ROV was taking video or pics, there should be more, imo.... OE mentioned the boat on the trap site on 1/11 & 1/12.....am I over thinking?

At what time were the pictures taken??What time did the ALE dive??May be over thinking as well...Is it possible the grave robbers were going to use the pictures in the future for leverage???Just brainstorming.KERMIT...HELP....

[Keepthefaith]

So is there a consensus that Natalee's remains were in that cage?  If so, Joran contacting Greta and implicating his father in the human trafficking scenario, knowing that Aruba had already taken care of the evidence, only makes sense if Joran was just looking for money.  Or, if Joran was setting up an alibi for not knowing that Natalee was dumped in the ocean. Which makes no sense for him to tell Greta eight hours after the interview that his new story was a lie.

If Greta was right in asking Joran if the 'recorded calls between him and his father' occurred in January, that time frame would match up with the activities surrounding the cleaning of the cage.  Was that a guess by Greta, or is that what Joran told her before the sitdown interview?  Seems like an odd coincidence to me.

Oh, OK. I can't take it anymore, so I'll just ask. Please be gentle with the stupid mod that hasn't properly kept up.........

If Natalee's remains were in the cage, why didn't they bring them up and announce to the world, "WE FOUND HER!"

Tim was there when they found the cage. I saw him. Didn't I?

Remember now.................be kind to animals and fools! Thank you very much, loyal monkeys. 

OK CBB and it's because you makes us such beautiful avitars.   

1.  Silvetti's businesses were in trouble.  He wanted to start new businesses with oil and an oil pipeline from Aruba to Chavez in Colombia.  He needed money.
2.  He illegally sold off his shares of stock and that is why the SEC is after him.
3.  Before he started his new oil business, he needed to have a geological scan of the ocean floor.  Doing those scans costs lots of money.
4.  He agreed to volunteer his ship, crew, and equipment to search for a missing American woman in the same area.  He scans the ocean floor looking for Natalee, but really he's doing oil work.
5.  Most of his expenses for the Persistence search were written off on his corporate tax returns because it was charity work and a donation that he was doing.  By looking for Natalee, he was able to map the ocean for free.
6.  Natalee was found in the end of December.  Oh no, what can he do?  He can't keep mapping the ocean floor for free because he just found the missing American woman.  So, the trap contents were turned over to ALE, nothing was ever in that trap. and he continued to search for Natalee and map for oil for another 6 to 8 weeks -at very little expense to himself.

I'm always impressed with the depth of experience/investigating skills/understanding/dedication that Monkeys bring in seeking the truth for Natalee and her family!
This pretty much sums up the last few weeks of postings by keeping the KISS principle forefront in analytical processing.
There are some serious implications in the calling out of Persistence/OE and CAPS and Hotshot (and others) if you believe Kermit has the big picture truth (I do), but at any rate....the point is still to find out the  truth surrounding the disappearance of Natalee. Keep charging Monkeys! V/r,billb

This is all about the TRUTH.Nothing more or nothing less.Whoever get's there first,if at all,God Bless their SOUL...

[truthseeker2]

I can buy into Silvetti's desire to map for oil scenario.  The thing i don't understand is why would they take those pictures of the evidence that they knew they wanted to destroy.  Who really took those pics of the evidence bags and where were the Aruban divers when those were taken?