Natalee Case Discussion #781 12/3/08 - 12/5/08

[SS]

There are pictures of this stuff.  You have to look at the dates in the upper right corner.

December 29th - the original photographs of the trap were taken.  They are the ones with the skull and contents at a distance.

January 7th - the date Eduardo and the divers put everything in bags and took it back to ALE.  Those are the up-close pictures of the contents.

Kermit has more pictures than we have seen.  Kermit posted one with some ALE divers next to the trap just the other day, but I have no idea where it is.

We don't have pictures of Coast Guard Panter on January 11th and 12th.  We thought the ship was there to lift the cage, but Caps says the cage is still there.  Who knows what the Dutch were doing out there????

[Tamikosmom]

Copied from Tamikosmom's post a couple of pages back:

Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #897 on: Today at 03:02:28 AM »

Kyle: “I did not feel the same and we had a major difference in opinion. He [John Silvetti] was the one who never pressed ALE to be completely open with us with the trap evidence. I would have forced them to. However, John was the one paying my invoices so I was forced to sit back and hope for the best.”

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564753;topicseen#msg564753

So..we now know that Kyle was NOT a volunteer.  Am I the only one that thought he was?  Was Silvetti paid by TES?  Has that ever even been asked?

Non-profit does not imply that wages are not paid.  Non-profit just means that all funds stay within that charity/ministry to support its objective.

Kyle is a professional in his field of expertise.  I believe it makes sense that he would be paid.

The ministries within our church have many wonderful volunteers but ... the turnover of volunteers are very high.  Therefore ... many workers are paid ... paid for their on-going committment and ... for their professional expertise.  Potential donors to our church ministers are afforded a financial statement upon request.

Janet

[cajun miracle]

No pics of the items being bagged....no pictures of the items being brought up......

NO pictures that we know of, yet.

[wreck]

I can buy into Silvetti's desire to map for oil scenario.  The thing i don't understand is why would they take those pictures of the evidence that they knew they wanted to destroy.  Who really took those pics of the evidence bags and where were the Aruban divers when those were taken?

If Kyle was still a "pawn" at that time, they would have to go through the motions of "making a concerted effort". Kyle said that Silvetti destroyed "everything Natalee" from the Persistence when he arrived home.

[2NJSons_Mom]

OK...I'll try this one.
They were not really there to look for Natalee, but to map
the ocean between Aruba and Venezuela.
They found the cage early Christmas morning.  Tim Miller
and ABC were on the boat at the time.
They sent Tim and Dave on the false lead to Costa Rica to
get Tim off the boat.  ABC went home.
They say that they did not dive on the cage until Jan7th
when the Aruban divers went down from their boat and
retrieved all the evidence to their boat.  Nobody objected.
There are pictures here of all the evidence in plastic bags.
Silvetti and Scheafer didn't want the contents of the trap known
because they wanted to continue with their mapping project
under the guise of hunting for Natalee.

So do we know that ALE even has the evidence or does one of the grave robbers potentially have the contents???Just a thought...

Well, isn't the date of the ROV pics of the cage with "bagged" evidence dated on Jan. 7th? That was when ALE collected the evidence. I would assume ALE has it all -- but who knows for sure????

Pics of bags with evidence dated 1/7/08....we haven't seen divers photographed on that date, have we??  If the ROV was taking video or pics, there should be more, imo.... OE mentioned the boat on the trap site on 1/11 & 1/12.....am I over thinking?

At what time were the pictures taken??What time did the ALE dive??May be over thinking as well...Is it possible the grave robbers were going to use the pictures in the future for leverage???Just brainstorming.KERMIT...HELP....

The pics from 1/7/08 that we've seen are from around 3:30pm to 3:40pm....nothing before or after, as far as I know.   If Kermit thinks that they didn't know the camera was on....then maybe someone has the footage/prints....someone on the boat....

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4173.400

[Keepthefaith]

There are pictures of this stuff.  You have to look at the dates in the upper right corner.

December 29th - the original photographs of the trap were taken.  They are the ones with the skull and contents at a distance.

January 7th - the date Eduardo and the divers put everything in bags and took it back to ALE.  Those are the up-close pictures of the contents.

Kermit has more pictures than we have seen.  Kermit posted one with some ALE divers next to the trap just the other day, but I have no idea where it is.

We don't have pictures of Coast Guard Panter on January 11th and 12th.  We thought the ship was there to lift the cage, but Caps says the cage is still there.  Who knows what the Dutch were doing out there????

So it is clear that Eduardo and the ALE divers bagged and took the evidence??Correct SS..Just seems weird that such great pictures with no divers in the picture.Thanx for bringin it forward!

[SS]

I can buy into Silvetti's desire to map for oil scenario.  The thing i don't understand is why would they take those pictures of the evidence that they knew they wanted to destroy.  Who really took those pics of the evidence bags and where were the Aruban divers when those were taken?

According to Kermit, Louis Schafer later sold the photographs to someone who is making a documentary film.  According to Kermit, Kyle attempted to sell them to a few networks and Peter de Vries.  They were not turned over to the FBI or Beth by the Persistence crew.

The pictures of the evidence in the large bag were taken by the ROV.  The ROV has bright lights and also does filming.  The ROV was down ther with the ALE divers, but they didn't know that it was filming the cage contents in the bags.  I am sure that there are hours of film from the ROV.  We have only seen a few pictires.

[cajun miracle]

OK...I'll try this one.
They were not really there to look for Natalee, but to map
the ocean between Aruba and Venezuela.
They found the cage early Christmas morning.  Tim Miller
and ABC were on the boat at the time.
They sent Tim and Dave on the false lead to Costa Rica to
get Tim off the boat.  ABC went home.
They say that they did not dive on the cage until Jan7th
when the Aruban divers went down from their boat and
retrieved all the evidence to their boat.  Nobody objected.
There are pictures here of all the evidence in plastic bags.
Silvetti and Scheafer didn't want the contents of the trap known
because they wanted to continue with their mapping project
under the guise of hunting for Natalee.

So do we know that ALE even has the evidence or does one of the grave robbers potentially have the contents???Just a thought...

Well, isn't the date of the ROV pics of the cage with "bagged" evidence dated on Jan. 7th? That was when ALE collected the evidence. I would assume ALE has it all -- but who knows for sure????

Pics of bags with evidence dated 1/7/08....we haven't seen divers photographed on that date, have we??  If the ROV was taking video or pics, there should be more, imo.... OE mentioned the boat on the trap site on 1/11 & 1/12.....am I over thinking?

At what time were the pictures taken??What time did the ALE dive??May be over thinking as well...Is it possible the grave robbers were going to use the pictures in the future for leverage???Just brainstorming.KERMIT...HELP....

The pics from 1/7/08 that we've seen are from around 3:30pm to 3:40pm....nothing before or after, as far as I know.   If Kermit thinks that they didn't know the camera was on....then maybe someone has the footage/prints....someone on the boat....

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4173.400

I think that there are other pictures but who has them????

[Tamikosmom]

There are pictures of this stuff.  You have to look at the dates in the upper right corner.

December 29th - the original photographs of the trap were taken.  They are the ones with the skull and contents at a distance.

January 7th - the date Eduardo and the divers put everything in bags and took it back to ALE.  Those are the up-close pictures of the contents.

Kermit has more pictures than we have seen.  Kermit posted one with some ALE divers next to the trap just the other day, but I have no idea where it is.

We don't have pictures of Coast Guard Panter on January 11th and 12th.  We thought the ship was there to lift the cage, but Caps says the cage is still there.  Who knows what the Dutch were doing out there????

So it is clear that Eduardo and the ALE divers bagged and took the evidence??Correct SS..Just seems weird that such great pictures with no divers in the picture.Thanx for bringin it forward!

 

A picture is beginning to emerge regarding the players in "fixed game" and ... I do not like it.

Janet

[Keepthefaith]

I can buy into Silvetti's desire to map for oil scenario.  The thing i don't understand is why would they take those pictures of the evidence that they knew they wanted to destroy.  Who really took those pics of the evidence bags and where were the Aruban divers when those were taken?

According to Kermit, Louis Schafer later sold the photographs to someone who is making a documentary film.  According to Kermit, Kyle attempted to sell them to a few networks and Peter de Vries.  They were not turned over to the FBI or Beth by the Persistence crew.

The pictures of the evidence in the large bag were taken by the ROV.  The ROV has bright lights and also does filming.  The ROV was down ther with the ALE divers, but they didn't know that it was filming the cage contents in the bags.  I am sure that there are hours of film from the ROV.  We have only seen a few pictires.

Bring this forward for ya Cajun..

[cajun miracle]

I can buy into Silvetti's desire to map for oil scenario.  The thing i don't understand is why would they take those pictures of the evidence that they knew they wanted to destroy.  Who really took those pics of the evidence bags and where were the Aruban divers when those were taken?

According to Kermit, Louis Schafer later sold the photographs to someone who is making a documentary film.  According to Kermit, Kyle attempted to sell them to a few networks and Peter de Vries.  They were not turned over to the FBI or Beth by the Persistence crew.

The pictures of the evidence in the large bag were taken by the ROV.  The ROV has bright lights and also does filming.  The ROV was down ther with the ALE divers, but they didn't know that it was filming the cage contents in the bags.  I am sure that there are hours of film from the ROV.  We have only seen a few pictires.

Bring this forward for ya Cajun..

Do we know who is making this documentary?

[Tamikosmom]

I can buy into Silvetti's desire to map for oil scenario.  The thing i don't understand is why would they take those pictures of the evidence that they knew they wanted to destroy.  Who really took those pics of the evidence bags and where were the Aruban divers when those were taken?

According to Kermit, Louis Schafer later sold the photographs to someone who is making a documentary film.  According to Kermit, Kyle attempted to sell them to a few networks and Peter de Vries.  They were not turned over to the FBI or Beth by the Persistence crew.

The pictures of the evidence in the large bag were taken by the ROV.  The ROV has bright lights and also does filming.  The ROV was down ther with the ALE divers, but they didn't know that it was filming the cage contents in the bags.  I am sure that there are hours of film from the ROV.  We have only seen a few pictires.

Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #882 on: Today at 02:36:28 AM »

Kyle said: "Louis is currently working with someone who I do not know to put together some documentary on the case, the way it was handled, and what happened during the search. I learned this from Tim T. yesterday. Louis was sold on the idea that it will make him a lot of money.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564701;topicseen#msg564701


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 -
« Reply #532 on: November 25, 2008, 07:06:45 PM »

From Kyle: May 8, 2008: "I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557660#msg557660

[WhiskeyGirl]

My comments in blue below -

1.  Silvetti's businesses were in trouble.  He wanted to start new businesses with oil and an oil pipeline from Aruba to Chavez in Colombia.  He needed money.

What business?  I have only seen one discussed, "J.D. Silvetti Group".  What are these other businesses?

2.  He illegally sold off his shares of stock and that is why the SEC is after him.

Who is "He"?  John Silvetti?  What stock is that?  What company?  I haven't seen this documented in the forum at SM or anywhere.  Where is it shown that the SEC is after him?

3.  Before he started his new oil business, he needed to have a geological scan of the ocean floor.  Doing those scans costs lots of money.

Didn't Kyle explain the difference between the scan Persistence did and the one needed for a pipeline or oil drilling?  It wouldn't make sense to scan around the hotels on the NW side of the island.  Valero is on the SE corner of the island.

Where does this come from?  This doesn't make sense to me.

4.  He agreed to volunteer his ship, crew, and equipment to search for a missing American woman in the same area.  He scans the ocean floor looking for Natalee, but really he's doing oil work.

Aruba is planning to put up oil rigs and pipe oil through the beaches?  Would this have a negative effect on the tourism business?

It is difficult for me to believe that oil will replace tourism.  Also, that someone, either Aruba, Hugo, or Valero has not already scanned for oil in the past.  Doesn't Aruba have a proactive environmental attitude? 

5.  Most of his expenses for the Persistence search were written off on his corporate tax returns because it was charity work and a donation that he was doing.  By looking for Natalee, he was able to map the ocean for free.

Did he file taxes for 2008 already?  Did you do some kind of FOI for the J.D. Silvetti Group?  In order to 'write-off' does he actually have to make a profit?  If he is making a profit, how much financial problem could the company have?  Which companies?

Who are the officers of this company?  Who's on the board?  How much does their stock trade for?  Lots of sales lately?

6.  Natalee was found in the end of December.  Oh no, what can he do?  He can't keep mapping the ocean floor for free because he just found the missing American woman.  So, the trap contents were turned over to ALE, nothing was ever in that trap. and he continued to search for Natalee and map for oil for another 6 to 8 weeks -at very little expense to himself.

Did he have an instant DNA test to know for sure that was Natalee?  Maybe he could see a drivers license with the ROV data?  The great unanswered question - HOW DID HE KNOW FOR SURE IF THAT WAS NATALEE AND NOT SOMEONE ELSE?

It seems to me that if he wanted to map the ocean for free, they would not have constructed a cage/trap based on descriptions given by the fishermen.  The trap enabled them to select better targets, or so I read.

SS ... your overview of the probable scenario is concise but ... says it all.

Thanks

Janet

To many unanswered questions, nothing at the Natalee Freebird site and no corroborating links for most of the John Silvetti stuff.  A sentence here or there from various posters.  No supporting documentation.

jmho

[billb's daughter]

I can buy into Silvetti's desire to map for oil scenario.  The thing i don't understand is why would they take those pictures of the evidence that they knew they wanted to destroy.  Who really took those pics of the evidence bags and where were the Aruban divers when those were taken?

If we buy into the idea that John S. was always or sometime during the search turned toward greed, and allow that the pics were taken unknowingly (not likely though-someone knew) and only were known to John S after the fact...AND, John S. was able to suppress his immediate crew from exposing the pics - then he alone struck a deal with ALE to  do whatever with the salvaged evidence. If greed was the goal, John S. would be better served if the contents disappeared. Seems like kyle knew ( was he running ROV or first to see ROV pics?). Maybe someone had the ROV camera running to have leverage on ALE?
John S. ALE struck a deal? Kyle a player trying his scheme? Kermit exposure?

[Magnolia]

I have a feeling that Kyle was peddling more than just the
few pictures that we have seen.  Those few would not
be worth showing to the people he said he spoke with.

[truthseeker2]

So is there a consensus that Natalee's remains were in that cage?  If so, Joran contacting Greta and implicating his father in the human trafficking scenario, knowing that Aruba had already taken care of the evidence, only makes sense if Joran was just looking for money.  Or, if Joran was setting up an alibi for not knowing that Natalee was dumped in the ocean. Which makes no sense for him to tell Greta eight hours after the interview that his new story was a lie.

If Greta was right in asking Joran if the 'recorded calls between him and his father' occurred in January, that time frame would match up with the activities surrounding the cleaning of the cage.  Was that a guess by Greta, or is that what Joran told her before the sitdown interview?  Seems like an odd coincidence to me.

I tend to focus on what the stories do for Joran.  IMHO they ensure that HE is not the last person known to be with a person that turns up dead.  


Dropped her at the HI, not dead yet.  Security guard witness.

Left her on the beach, not dead yet.  Black couple witnesses, other couples.

She was shaking, it didn't look good, not dead yet.  So, I called a friend with a boat instead of 911.

She was drunk, I sold her for some pizza and beer money, maybe like $10,000 and watched her go away on a boat, not dead yet.  She was making noises when she left, not dead yet.


Maybe JVDS didn't realize that human trafficking is a bad thing?  Maybe he grew up in a place where this deception/practice is common?

From the Aruba perspective, who could be in that trap?  Amy Bradley?  Max DeVries?  Missing prision guard?  Natalee Holloway?  Some unknown unfortunate?

Who is Joran selling these girls to?  

How long has it taken to get DNA or any lab results back from the NFI in this case?  IIRC, I read that the NFI has long waiting lists for any case.  I seem to remember some posters suggesting/asking to know why Natalee should receive special attention and move to the beginning of the NFI line.  Sometimes, I think, one might wait forever.  

If someone had limited time/money and two choices, what would they choose to do?  Let the money run out while waiting for results from the NFI, and make no additional progress?  Or, spend the remaining funds searching for a missing person?  

A third factor is the weather.  IIRC, the weather had started to change and made searching more difficult.  

It's hard for me to believe Joran did not know what was going on while the Persistance was in Aruba.  If that was Natalee and nothing was being done to arrest him by the summer he had to believe the coast was clear.  Why contact Greta?  I agree.  I to am trying to decide how that helped him in anyway.

[Hotshot]

Do ya'll reckon that Schaefer and Silvetti might be doing
a little offshore banking to hide some funds from that
SEC investigation?  That is a specialty of Croes and Tchong.

Interesting Magnolia!AS Kermit says...Follow the money.We shall follow the money no matter who it pertains to in this case.Paulus,Joran,Silvetti,Schaeffer,etc,etc..Whomever is a part of this case is a open book.JMOO

First of all "follow the money" was wayyyy in the beginning, and Silvetti was NOT even known yet.  You monkeys have to think about who is trying to con you, and why.  I guess you'll all see in the end....... 

[truthseeker2]

I can buy into Silvetti's desire to map for oil scenario.  The thing i don't understand is why would they take those pictures of the evidence that they knew they wanted to destroy.  Who really took those pics of the evidence bags and where were the Aruban divers when those were taken?

If Kyle was still a "pawn" at that time, they would have to go through the motions of "making a concerted effort". Kyle said that Silvetti destroyed "everything Natalee" from the Persistence when he arrived home.

Hmm.  That does make sense.

[billb's daughter]

There are pictures of this stuff.  You have to look at the dates in the upper right corner.

December 29th - the original photographs of the trap were taken.  They are the ones with the skull and contents at a distance.

January 7th - the date Eduardo and the divers put everything in bags and took it back to ALE.  Those are the up-close pictures of the contents.

Kermit has more pictures than we have seen.  Kermit posted one with some ALE divers next to the trap just the other day, but I have no idea where it is.
Does seem staged. But for what purpose?

We don't have pictures of Coast Guard Panter on January 11th and 12th.  We thought the ship was there to lift the cage, but Caps says the cage is still there.  Who knows what the Dutch were doing out there????

So it is clear that Eduardo and the ALE divers bagged and took the evidence??Correct SS..Just seems weird that such great pictures with no divers in the picture.Thanx for bringin it forward!

[crazybabyborg]

Kyle has videos on YouTube of the search. I just watched 2 of them, but there are more................

Before I go through them all, has anybody else done this?