Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 - 12/6/08

[2NJSons_Mom]

I have a question for anyone......If the person in the cage was not Natalee, and her parents are satisfied with that, but yet we still see a skull, I have forgotten where the other blond girl was from.   Was she American???  Can we not pursue her death if she was???? (and Im sorry if this is a stupid question)

Always, it's not a stupid question, but what other blonde girl do you mean?  There is Jalitza, an Aruban resident, who died around the first of June 2005.  There was supposedly a blonde girl on a tape in a jewelry store, but this was not Natalee, as identified by Beth.  I'm not sure the hair color is significant.

The concern, as I see it, is that the FBI may not have been given the evidence collected from the cage, but substitute pieces of fabric that was not tied to Natalee.  Thus, the FBI reported it was not Natalee.  However, I'm not convinced Beth and Dave, or the FBI, had the evidence to draw such a conclusion.  Now, they may have more reason to believe there was a coverup that destroyed that evidence, and they may never be able to be prove who or what was in the cage.  Regardless, I have heard Beth say recently when asked, that she believes Natalee is deceased. 

I was thinking Always meant Amy Bradley....

[AZLady]

Ah, yes.  And remember when Arlene tried to explain to us the intricacies of the separate government entities?  According to her, the Minister of Justice could not tell the police chief or his men what to do and despite his title as Minister of Justice, he had to request information from the Prosecutor who didn't always cooperate with him.  They were described as three separate entities that defended their independence from each other and worked as often against each other as together.  I remember I found this very odd indeed.

Right!!!

It is the most confusing system I have ever encountered.

What's more, as I understand it, The OM, Prosecutor, Hans Mos in this case, does not just represent the victim.  He instead represents JUSTICE.  The victim is supposed to be represented by the LAW and the defendant by his attorney but the prosecutor is supposed to be a NEUTRAL party.

And totally at his discretion, he can chose to prosecute, or not, based on what he believes to be in the "best interest of the public welfare" instead of the letter of the law.

At least, this is how it has been explained to me in the past several times.

So the Prosecutor does not represent the victim at all but JUSTICE and is to remain a neutral party.

How confusing is that?????

Yes.  From what I've read, the Prosecutor represents the good of the society.  He makes decisions on who and what to Prosecute based on what's good for the Aruban society.  Now that's a conundrum in itself.

[AZLady]

I have a question for anyone......If the person in the cage was not Natalee, and her parents are satisfied with that, but yet we still see a skull, I have forgotten where the other blond girl was from.   Was she American???  Can we not pursue her death if she was???? (and Im sorry if this is a stupid question)

Always, it's not a stupid question, but what other blonde girl do you mean?  There is Jalitza, an Aruban resident, who died around the first of June 2005.  There was supposedly a blonde girl on a tape in a jewelry store, but this was not Natalee, as identified by Beth.  I'm not sure the hair color is significant.

The concern, as I see it, is that the FBI may not have been given the evidence collected from the cage, but substitute pieces of fabric that was not tied to Natalee.  Thus, the FBI reported it was not Natalee.  However, I'm not convinced Beth and Dave, or the FBI, had the evidence to draw such a conclusion.  Now, they may have more reason to believe there was a coverup that destroyed that evidence, and they may never be able to be prove who or what was in the cage.  Regardless, I have heard Beth say recently when asked, that she believes Natalee is deceased. 

I was thinking Always meant Amy Bradley....

Okay.     Now I am confused.  Every photo I've seen of Amy Bradley shows a young woman with dark hair.  The most recent I've read about Amy Bradley was that she was spotted more than once and is believed to be alive.  This is just a huge leap from one case to another than I'm befuddled.

[Frank]

Janet,

Why would van der straaten have  to cop to anything? He can say there isn't even a crime? No body, no crime, that's what that phrase is for.

By the theory he gets a slap on the wrist supposes that Aruba will admit in court that a crime actually occurred.

If he is ever brought in front of a judge, he will day Natalee who? What crime? She's a girl who disappeared.

Aruba has to tell us she is dead and how they know or what do we have?

[Tamikosmom]

I just replaced color, and that really does look like a skull and shoe, to me anyway.

CBB ... you are amazing!

In the name of justice for Natalee Holloway ... ALL ROV images that escaped destruction at the hands of the ALE should have been immediately turned over to the FBI experts to determine what were the contents of that cage.

However ... it is not too late.

Janet

[SS]

I just replaced color, and that really does look like a skull and shoe, to me anyway.

This is going to be very graphic, but it is one reason why I think that the remains might not have been Natalee, but rather Jalitza or someone else.  Jalitza's body had been prepared for burial which means that she was likely embalmed with her body tissues chemically preserved.  Her body would have been able to be moved, in tact.  Natalee was murdered, possibly dismembered, and reportedly moved several times in the Aruban heat before a final disposal.  Her body would have deteriorated in several days to a point where she would have been difficult to move.  Her body tissue would have started to decay and liquefy.  As with Caylee Anthony, there was certainly insect damage from maggots and beetles.  Insects can devour a human body in just several days.  After just a day or two, it would have been very difficult to move Natalee onboard a boat and then deposit her on the floor of a fish cage unless she was in a closed container.  It would have been like carrying a huge bag of spaghetti.  Her skin would have fallen off with just a touch.  The odor would have been unbearable. It would have been too difficult to put Natalee in that cage unless it was done very shortly after she died.

[AZLady]

I just replaced color, and that really does look like a skull and shoe, to me anyway.

CBB ... you are amazing!

In the name of justice for Natalee Holloway ... ALL ROV images that escaped destruction at the hands of the ALE should have been immediately turned over to the FBI experts to determine what were the contents of that cage.

However ... it is not too late.

Janet

No, it's not too late.  As long as images exist from that exploration, they can be analyzed.

[AZLady]

Yes, time was of the essence.  The Gottenbos's boat was available and I do think the body was disposed of in the cage rather soon after her death. 

[SS]

I have a question for anyone......If the person in the cage was not Natalee, and her parents are satisfied with that, but yet we still see a skull, I have forgotten where the other blond girl was from.   Was she American???  Can we not pursue her death if she was???? (and Im sorry if this is a stupid question)

Always, it's not a stupid question, but what other blonde girl do you mean?  There is Jalitza, an Aruban resident, who died around the first of June 2005.  There was supposedly a blonde girl on a tape in a jewelry store, but this was not Natalee, as identified by Beth.  I'm not sure the hair color is significant.

The concern, as I see it, is that the FBI may not have been given the evidence collected from the cage, but substitute pieces of fabric that was not tied to Natalee.  Thus, the FBI reported it was not Natalee.  However, I'm not convinced Beth and Dave, or the FBI, had the evidence to draw such a conclusion.  Now, they may have more reason to believe there was a coverup that destroyed that evidence, and they may never be able to be prove who or what was in the cage.  Regardless, I have heard Beth say recently when asked, that she believes Natalee is deceased. 

I was thinking Always meant Amy Bradley....

Okay.     Now I am confused.  Every photo I've seen of Amy Bradley shows a young woman with dark hair.  The most recent I've read about Amy Bradley was that she was spotted more than once and is believed to be alive.  This is just a huge leap from one case to another than I'm befuddled.

Amy was reported as seen by an American serviceman in a whore house in Barranquilla.  She spoke to him and gave her name, but he didn't report it because he wasn't supposed to be there on his leave.  There is also a photograph that has surfaced from Venezuela that looks very much like Amy.  I don't think Amy is believed to be in the ocean.  I could be wrong.

[Dayhiker]

Janet, this is the highest profile international missing person/murder case certainly in the last decade. Van der Straten has got to be in his mid-to-late 60s. Do you think he's going to throw whatever legacy of his career he has in the toilet and spend the last few years of his life in KIA for money he can't even spend?

 

Dayhiker ... it will never happened.  I contend the consequences have already been negotiated and ... jail time is not on the table.

Tamikosmom had a vision.  It is getting clearer.  Now I see it!!

From a legal perspective Jan van der Straaten pleads "not guilty" to a conflict of interest but ... will concedes that he did botched the investigation within the first ten day ... made the wrong decisions.  The judge will rule in his favor and ... he will walk.

Aruba will attempt to pacify Natalee's familly by apologizing for the incompentence of one of their own who prevented justice from prevailing and ... will assure the family that Jan van der Straaten will never again work in law enforcement again.

Jan van der Straaten with a fatten bank account fades from the Aruban scene.

Case Closed!


Dayhiker ... think about it.  Wrong decisions are made every day by LE that compromise investigations.  Heads may roll but ... there are no legal consequences.

Janet

Janet, I don't disagree that could happen, but why even bring it up? They were ready to close the case, why create a fiasco? That makes zero sense to me.

[AZLady]

Here's a blast from the past.  Anyone else remember this? 

http://www.aruba-bb.com/viewtopic.php?t=20296&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
bakablGuest Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:00 am Post subject: Natalee Holloway Questions to be asked of the Two Men

bakabl wrote:Frist Im vary sorry to hear of the vary sad case of Natalee Holloway in such a wonderful place like Aruba but it could happen anywere at any time. There are a few questions that need to be asked of the two men that the FBI are questioning - 1st ask them about the drink that was given to Natalee around 3:15am Aruba Time the morring Natalee never retyrn to her hotel and ask them about what the drug was in the drink that Natalee drunk without her knowing. 2nd ask them about the boat and the 2-1/2 mile trip they took.

They should break dowm and tell the truth about are were Natalee can be found.

[Anna]

Anna - refresh my memory.  Stanley Zandaam is the one who has written the book and also the one who came out and said Natalee's body may have been found early in the case?  Do I have my Zandaam's mixed up or correct?

Yes, that's correct, Klaas.  Stanley was the one who seemed to know that Natalee's remains were found almost immediately.

Eric is the one who is president of the police union or was at the time this article was written.

Two very different points of view.

[Dayhiker]

Janet,

Why would van der straaten have  to cop to anything? He can say there isn't even a crime? No body, no crime, that's what that phrase is for.

By the theory he gets a slap on the wrist supposes that Aruba will admit in court that a crime actually occurred.

If he is ever brought in front of a judge, he will day Natalee who? What crime? She's a girl who disappeared.

Aruba has to tell us she is dead and how they know or what do we have?

Has Rudy told us WHAT Jan was covering up yet, Frank? Was it rape and murder, was it sex slavery, was it the elders having a gangbang? Surely he knows.

[MuffyBee]

What has changed?

Hey ya'll.

Gun

Hey gunslinger 

[Tamikosmom]

Janet,

Why would van der straaten have  to cop to anything? He can say there isn't even a crime? No body, no crime, that's what that phrase is for.

By the theory he gets a slap on the wrist supposes that Aruba will admit in court that a crime actually occurred.

If he is ever brought in front of a judge, he will day Natalee who? What crime? She's a girl who disappeared.

Aruba has to tell us she is dead and how they know or what do we have?

Aruba wants closure.  Keep it simple ... uncomplicated.  One person takes the fall for obstructing an investigation within the first ten day and ... allowing crucial evidence ... required for justice to prevail ... to be destroyed.  In other words ... too late to turn back the hands of time.

I believe the truth will never be revealed unless one person who has knowledge regarding the happenings of that fateful morning grows a conscience and ... reveals all to Natalee's family ... a family who has been denied closure by a corrupt Aruban investigation since May 30, 2005.

Janet

______

ART WOOD, FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT

'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for December 1
updated 7:37 a.m. PT, Fri., Dec. 2, 2005

WOOD: ... The reason this case could still be solved is because there are so many people involved in Natalee's disappearance and in the disposal of her body. When somebody talks, they're going to all go down. This is like a house of cards.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10295536/

[Anna]

Janet, this is the highest profile international missing person/murder case certainly in the last decade. Van der Straten has got to be in his mid-to-late 60s. Do you think he's going to throw whatever legacy of his career he has in the toilet and spend the last few years of his life in KIA for money he can't even spend?

 

Dayhiker ... it will never happened.  I contend the consequences have already been negotiated and ... jail time is not on the table.

Tamikosmom had a vision.  It is getting clearer.  Now I see it!!

From a legal perspective Jan van der Straaten pleads "not guilty" to a conflict of interest but ... will concedes that he did botched the investigation within the first ten day ... made the wrong decisions.  The judge will rule in his favor and ... he will walk.

Aruba will attempt to pacify Natalee's family by apologizing for the incompetence of one of their own who prevented justice from prevailing and ... will assure the family that Jan van der Straaten will never again work in law enforcement again.

Jan van der Straaten with a fatten bank account fades from the Aruban scene.

Case Closed!


Dayhiker ... think about it.  Wrong decisions are made every day by LE that compromise investigations.  Heads may roll but ... there are no legal consequences.

Janet

Janet, I don't disagree that could happen, but why even bring it up? They were ready to close the case, why create a fiasco? That makes zero sense to me.

To say THE DUTCH are the sole reason the Aruban judicial system doesn't work.  That's why he is now saying he was told to down play the fact that Joran is European and not native Aruban as was portrayed in the re-enactment.

He is saying that if not for the DUTCH, Aruban justice would work just fine and therefore the Caribbean Court of Justice should be located in Aruba just as he and Oduber have wanted for some time.

You yourself, Dayhiker, has alluded to this many times.  Rudy agrees and says if not for the Dutch, the Aruban system would be the model for the region, etc.

For big meeting Dec 15 concerning location of the larger Court of Justice for the region.

[Blonde]

One thought I have on this gal Jalitza
Is the Holiday Inn video showing a gal who looked like Natalee. Beth took a look at the video and discounted it as NOT Natalee..
Was it actually Jalitza on that video ?
Part of an early plan to deceive and then eliminated..
Just a thought.

Edward, I believe the video Beth said was not Natalee was taken in a jewelry store (maybe in a hotel lobby, if I recall).  The video in the Holiday Inn casino of Natalee at the Blackjack table was identified as Natalee, as were videos of her walking into the casino.  Now, which video are you referencing?

The hotel lobby is the video I am referring to. thank you

The way I remember it, Beth said that was NOT Natalee in the Hotel lobby Video.

[Kermit]

private eye March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.440


Kyle said: I strongly believe it's blue denim. Everyone I show thinks the same thing without being prompted (including senior ABC execs).

[wreck]

Janet, I agree.  I do believe Kyle was naive and trusting, as his youth would indicate.  I also understand his position as a junior member of the crew and an employee of Silvetti.  He does state that Silvetti told him never to mention the cage again.  This implies to me that Kyle may have voiced his concerns about the cage and its contents, after which Silvetti told him to shut up.  Kyle is in the position of very young junior employee on a relatively small boat who cannot, realistically, do what his employer has specifically told him not to do.  However, when did the Persistence arrive back in the US and end its trip?  This would have been when Kyle would no longer be employed by Silvetti or under his orders.  Is this about when Kyle decided he had to speak to PI?  He still should have gone to Beth and the FBI, not PI.

I agree wholeheartedly - but it isn't like PI does not have "family" connections.

[AZLady]

private eye March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.440


Kyle said: I strongly believe it's blue denim. Everyone I show thinks the same thing without being prompted (including senior ABC execs).

And from what I gather, the FBI did not receive a blue denim sample to test.  They received a sample of a fabric similar to Natalee's blouse, correct?