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Author Topic: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 - 12/6/08  (Read 275546 times)
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wreck
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« Reply #660 on: December 06, 2008, 08:42:21 AM »

texasmom,

does that say what I think it says? That van der straaten knew where she was buried and moved?

I think so Frank, and also at what house she was "scondi" whatever that means.   

I think this guy could be full of crap, and a relative of the Kalpoes too.  JMO
escondi = abscond ??????
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MumInOhio
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« Reply #661 on: December 06, 2008, 08:48:19 AM »

WhiskeyGirl…where are you?

Were both dives the same time length?  Do we even know this?  How deep were they diving? How long would their tanks last? How long did it take for them to get down to the cage? How long to get back? Who watches the clock, the divers or some-one on board? What is the signal to come up?

BTW...Good Morning!
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« Reply #662 on: December 06, 2008, 08:49:30 AM »

In my opinion Tim says Bullshit this is the shit part I screen captured
 So  was he dissapointed OR he doesn't believe them. 


I opined last night that "Bull S_ _ _" usually means you don't BELIEVE the person.
Plain "S_ _ _" or "F_ _ _" means you are disappointed.
He clearly mouthed "Bull S _  _ _ ".



{{edit for spelling I was still sleeping}}
« Last Edit: December 06, 2008, 10:21:37 AM by Blonde » Logged

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« Reply #663 on: December 06, 2008, 09:00:35 AM »

In my opinion Tim says Bullshit this is the shit part I screen captured
 So  was he dissapointed OR he donen't believe them. 


I opined last night that "Bull S_ _ _" usually means you don't BELIEVE the person.
Plain "S_ _ _" or "F_ _ _" means you are disappointed.
He clearly mouthed "Bull S _  _ _ ".

I agree Wreck,  and then they made sure he was off the ship for the retriveal dive.  Something is just not right here. 
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« Reply #664 on: December 06, 2008, 09:25:01 AM »

Who did "Dateline" pay the rights fee to accompany the Persistence? How much did they pay?
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« Reply #665 on: December 06, 2008, 09:27:54 AM »

Obviously, one camera was filming the dive sequence on the 30th while a second camera, or the ROV, was filming the contents of the trap.  In the dive sequence, the divers are giving a thumbs down.  Tim Miller is onboard saying Bull$hit, and another camera is filming the actual contents within two minutes of the divers giving a thumbs down.  Whoever was operating the camera for the dive sequence, directed the focus away from the left side of the cage where there were obviously human remains, a skirt, and a sneaker.  On the 29th the day before, the cage contents had also been filmed and it appeared that there was a skull and other objects in the photographs.  Whoever was operating the dive sequence on the 30th knew exactly what to avoid filming.  Images from the 30th were later mathematically evaluated by Kyle with an overlay of Natalee's body.  The findings were accurate to within one inch.  Meanwhile, Tim miller had been told that there was no evidence in the trap.  Tim was then considered a "liability".

I am just sick about all of this.  I have never even been a supporter of Natalee being in the ocean, but Kyle's overlay and mathematical calculations are pretty convincing.
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« Reply #666 on: December 06, 2008, 09:44:09 AM »

On the 30th, Tim Miller and Dateline were told that there was nothing in the trap.  However, the ROV of another camera were filming the trap contents at the same time the dive sequence was being filmed.  Based on the photographs that were taken within minutes of the thumbs down signal, Kyle constructed a set of mathematical calculations on the remains in the trap.  Using an overlay of Natalee's from a photograph taken the day she disappeared, he came up with the conclusions below.

****
Quote from Kermit:

Kyle said: "
Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

- I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs.
- I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location.
- Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle said: “- I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head,

to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed.

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items

The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.”
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klaasend
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« Reply #667 on: December 06, 2008, 09:49:44 AM »

sta. cruz -- cierto sir van der straten, ex -alto comisario of police anteriormente owing to declara: “ik zal deze zaak eventjes oplossen met de flexie team” y “dit kan ik mijn vriend paul van der sloot niet aandoen”. one person dutch owing to try torpedea one investigacion cu have to did take lugar the first dianan of the suceso fateful here. but for motibo of ‘vriendjes-politiek’ owing to last 10 day first cu owing to detene the sospechoso principal, joran van der sloot. at bonaire two cabez of police owing to cay at instant cu they not owing to atende the caso of marilies van der kouwe the first two dianan. here at aruba we was have one such van der straten, cu owing to fracasa, owing to torpedea y owing to hinca aruba in one bad mal spot, for his incompetencia y owing to proposito. karam misier owing to tell cu at november the will come saca the wesonan of the child muher natalee holloway. according karam the know good where nh is bury y the know also at home of that natalee was scondi. also the know where el’a die y kendenan owing to mutila his curpa for so deshaci of the curpa y bury partinan of his curpa. same also the caso here will trece one solucion cu the desaparicion of the young vicencio tromp. according another version, vicencio tromp wanted owing to talk y owing to become one menaza for her ‘macamba conexion’. same the caso of pitbull cu also owing to achieve one vuelta because the also wanted owing to talk. the ‘dutch conection at aruba is pior cu cualkier organizacion of hitman sicario at world. ex –comisario van der straten together cu his amigo paul van der sloot have cu bay talk at instant cu saca the curpa of natalee. karam misier already is one paar of day overdue.


Gee, wonder if Kawish told him.   
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« Reply #668 on: December 06, 2008, 09:58:57 AM »

I have just noticed something else.  Kyle has admitted that he was aware that a skirt was located in the cage and was sampled.  We have been led to believe that the contents of the cage were bagged and removed by ALE who came and left in their own dive boat.  How could Kyle have sampled the contents of the cage and the skirt, if ALE confiscated them and took them away without the involvement of the Americans?  This horrific story just keeps getting worse.

*******************
From Kermit:

Kyle said: "
Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

- I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs.
- I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location.
- Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle said: “- I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head,

to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed.

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items

The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.”
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« Reply #669 on: December 06, 2008, 10:01:03 AM »

On the 30th, Tim Miller and Dateline were told that there was nothing in the trap.  However, the ROV of another camera were filming the trap contents at the same time the dive sequence was being filmed.  Based on the photographs that were taken within minutes of the thumbs down signal, Kyle constructed a set of mathematical calculations on the remains in the trap.  Using an overlay of Natalee's from a photograph taken the day she disappeared, he came up with the conclusions below.

****
Quote from Kermit:

Kyle said: "
Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

- I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs.
- I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location.
- Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle said: “- I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head,

to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed.

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items

The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.”

This is what loses me:

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items


1.  Who is we?  Did anyone from the Persistence gather the items on January 7th or was it just the ALE team?

2.  If someone on the Persistence did gather a sample of the skirt - what happened to that sample?

3.  Or was Kyle BSing here saying WE gathered when it was really only ALE divers that gathered ANYTHING on Jan 7.
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« Reply #670 on: December 06, 2008, 10:04:18 AM »

Who did "Dateline" pay the rights fee to accompany the Persistence? How much did they pay?




Good question Wreck, and I'll bet it was big bucks. 
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« Reply #671 on: December 06, 2008, 10:19:50 AM »

On the 30th, Tim Miller and Dateline were told that there was nothing in the trap.  However, the ROV of another camera were filming the trap contents at the same time the dive sequence was being filmed.  Based on the photographs that were taken within minutes of the thumbs down signal, Kyle constructed a set of mathematical calculations on the remains in the trap.  Using an overlay of Natalee's from a photograph taken the day she disappeared, he came up with the conclusions below.

****
Quote from Kermit:

Kyle said: "
Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

- I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs.
- I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location.
- Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle said: “- I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head,

to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed.

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items

The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.”

This is what loses me:

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items


1.  Who is we?  Did anyone from the Persistence gather the items on January 7th or was it just the ALE team?

2.  If someone on the Persistence did gather a sample of the skirt - what happened to that sample?

3.  Or was Kyle BSing here saying WE gathered when it was really only ALE divers that gathered ANYTHING on Jan 7.




Klaas - these are my exact questions.  We have been told that ALE were the bad guys who confiscated everything and took it away.  They obviously bagged everything in order to bring it all to the surface because we can see the bags in the photographs.  What happened to it after that?  Did the Persistence crew actually take part in examining the cage contents?  Kyle's statement leads me to believe that they did sample the items from the cage.  These are Kyle's own words and not someone's supposition.  Kyle has stated it was a denim skirt.  Did he actually see the skirt?  It would be difficult to identify blue fabric as being denim just from a photograph.  It would also be difficult to identify a piece of fabric as a skirt if it had been buried under the sand as Kyle described or as it was in the bag.  Monkeys looking at the fabric in the bag couldn't idenitfy it and actually thought it was a hat.  My interpretation is that Kyle did see and sample the items after they were brought to the surface, based on his own statements.
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« Reply #672 on: December 06, 2008, 10:24:30 AM »

Klaas - Kyle also told Kermit that the light color on the blue fabric (evident in the evidence bags) was discoloration due to decay or decomposition.  I am now wondering how he knew this, if he hadn't examined the fabric himself.  Can you find that post from Kermit where Kyle discussed the discoloration on the skirt?  I have no idea where it is.
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« Reply #673 on: December 06, 2008, 10:27:34 AM »

Klaas - Kyle also told Kermit that the light color on the blue fabric (evident in the evidence bags) was discoloration due to decay or decomposition.  I am now wondering how he knew this, if he hadn't examined the fabric himself.  Can you find that post from Kermit where Kyle discussed the discoloration on the skirt?  I have no idea where it is.

I am not an expert, but looking at the center top of each picture we've seen there is a number 93.6 f, for example, which is probably the depth the ROV took the image....I just checked Blonde's thread 'The Search for Natalee' and especially on page 2, can see dive photos with the same depth stamp.  If so, the cage was not bone dry, and the zip lock bags were in the cage at that depth, imo.




Bag at 300%


To me it also looks like a cap police or military. I see also a star but could be a badge. The trouble with analyzing these they remind me of someones post on the plastic bags where you can see a face and a body. In these just below the cap I also see a face. A sweet face. Not a face that has been in the water for 3 years.
I see optical illusions everywhere though.

Hey San , Thanks for telling Klaas about my post. Looks like she fixed it for me.

Sam


Kyle said: “The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.



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« Reply #674 on: December 06, 2008, 10:46:44 AM »

On the 30th, Tim Miller and Dateline were told that there was nothing in the trap.  However, the ROV of another camera were filming the trap contents at the same time the dive sequence was being filmed.  Based on the photographs that were taken within minutes of the thumbs down signal, Kyle constructed a set of mathematical calculations on the remains in the trap.  Using an overlay of Natalee's from a photograph taken the day she disappeared, he came up with the conclusions below.

****
Quote from Kermit:

Kyle said: "
Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

- I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs.
- I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location.
- Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle said: “- I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head,

to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed.

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items

The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.”

This is what loses me:

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items


1.  Who is we?  Did anyone from the Persistence gather the items on January 7th or was it just the ALE team?

2.  If someone on the Persistence did gather a sample of the skirt - what happened to that sample?

3.  Or was Kyle BSing here saying WE gathered when it was really only ALE divers that gathered ANYTHING on Jan 7.




Klaas - these are my exact questions.  We have been told that ALE were the bad guys who confiscated everything and took it away.  They obviously bagged everything in order to bring it all to the surface because we can see the bags in the photographs.  What happened to it after that?  Did the Persistence crew actually take part in examining the cage contents?  Kyle's statement leads me to believe that they did sample the items from the cage.  These are Kyle's own words and not someone's supposition.  Kyle has stated it was a denim skirt.  Did he actually see the skirt?  It would be difficult to identify blue fabric as being denim just from a photograph.  It would also be difficult to identify a piece of fabric as a skirt if it had been buried under the sand as Kyle described or as it was in the bag.  Monkeys looking at the fabric in the bag couldn't idenitfy it and actually thought it was a hat.  My interpretation is that Kyle did see and sample the items after they were brought to the surface, based on his own statements.

Kyle's statement leads me to believe that they did sample the items from the cage. 
Just maybe he kept a peice
.
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« Reply #675 on: December 06, 2008, 10:48:12 AM »

Thanks Klaas - you are good!!

*************

Kyle said: “The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

******************

In my opinion, it would be unlikely that Kyle could determine this from just a photograph.  If the skirt had been under sand, as he had described, how would he know that the stain was located at the bottom of the skirt?  This wouldn't have been evident once it was bunched up in the evidence bag, either.  I think he did sample the items from the cage.  ALE might have them now, but I feel pretty confident that the Persistence crew examined the objects from the cage.  I am also highly doubtful that three Aruban divers appeared alone in a dive boat to remove the possible evidence of a high profile International murder case.  The Persistence was probably crawling with ALE while that evidence was collected on January 7th, if for no other reason than to make sure nothing disappeared.  I wouldn't be surprised if Mos, himself, was onboard, and no doubt Richardson was there because he's in charge of the case.  I do think that we've been duped once more.
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« Reply #676 on: December 06, 2008, 10:49:18 AM »

Blonde - either that or at the time Kyle didn't want it known that they didn't actually gather anything, that it was only ALE.  Maybe Kermit or Kyle can clarify?
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« Reply #677 on: December 06, 2008, 10:51:10 AM »

Thanks Klaas - you are good!!

*************

Kyle said: “The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

******************

In my opinion, it would be unlikely that Kyle could determine this from just a photograph.  If the skirt had been under sand, as he had described, how would he know that the stain was located at the bottom of the skirt?  This wouldn't have been evident once it was bunched up in the evidence bag, either.  I think he did sample the items from the cage.  ALE might have them now, but I feel pretty confident that the Persistence crew examined the objects from the cage.  I am also highly doubtful that three Aruban divers appeared alone in a dive boat to remove the possible evidence of a high profile International murder case.  The Persistence was probably crawling with ALE while that evidence was collected on January 7th, if for no other reason than to make sure nothing disappeared.  I wouldn't be surprised if Mos, himself, was onboard, and no doubt Richardson was there because he's in charge of the case.  I do think that we've been duped once more.

So where does that leave us?   
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« Reply #678 on: December 06, 2008, 10:52:46 AM »

On the 30th, Tim Miller and Dateline were told that there was nothing in the trap.  However, the ROV of another camera were filming the trap contents at the same time the dive sequence was being filmed.  Based on the photographs that were taken within minutes of the thumbs down signal, Kyle constructed a set of mathematical calculations on the remains in the trap.  Using an overlay of Natalee's from a photograph taken the day she disappeared, he came up with the conclusions below.

****
Quote from Kermit:

Kyle said: "
Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

- I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs.
- I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location.
- Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle said: “- I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head,

to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed.

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items

The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.”

This is what loses me:

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items


1.  Who is we?  Did anyone from the Persistence gather the items on January 7th or was it just the ALE team?

2.  If someone on the Persistence did gather a sample of the skirt - what happened to that sample?

3.  Or was Kyle BSing here saying WE gathered when it was really only ALE divers that gathered ANYTHING on Jan 7.




Klaas - these are my exact questions.  We have been told that ALE were the bad guys who confiscated everything and took it away.  They obviously bagged everything in order to bring it all to the surface because we can see the bags in the photographs.  What happened to it after that?  Did the Persistence crew actually take part in examining the cage contents?  Kyle's statement leads me to believe that they did sample the items from the cage.  These are Kyle's own words and not someone's supposition.  Kyle has stated it was a denim skirt.  Did he actually see the skirt?  It would be difficult to identify blue fabric as being denim just from a photograph.  It would also be difficult to identify a piece of fabric as a skirt if it had been buried under the sand as Kyle described or as it was in the bag.  Monkeys looking at the fabric in the bag couldn't idenitfy it and actually thought it was a hat.  My interpretation is that Kyle did see and sample the items after they were brought to the surface, based on his own statements.

Kyle's statement leads me to believe that they did sample the items from the cage. 
Just maybe he kept a peice
.




I don't think anything would surprise me at this point.  This story is getting sicker by the day.  How could they just hand all of that evidence over to ALE and deny that they had found anything???  And, sit silently by when our FBI was sent a piece of nothing?   
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« Reply #679 on: December 06, 2008, 11:07:22 AM »

Thanks Klaas - you are good!!

*************

Kyle said: “The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

******************

In my opinion, it would be unlikely that Kyle could determine this from just a photograph.  If the skirt had been under sand, as he had described, how would he know that the stain was located at the bottom of the skirt?  This wouldn't have been evident once it was bunched up in the evidence bag, either.  I think he did sample the items from the cage.  ALE might have them now, but I feel pretty confident that the Persistence crew examined the objects from the cage.  I am also highly doubtful that three Aruban divers appeared alone in a dive boat to remove the possible evidence of a high profile International murder case.  The Persistence was probably crawling with ALE while that evidence was collected on January 7th, if for no other reason than to make sure nothing disappeared.  I wouldn't be surprised if Mos, himself, was onboard, and no doubt Richardson was there because he's in charge of the case.  I do think that we've been duped once more.

So where does that leave us?   




I don't know Klaas.  I'm starting to be concerned about legal ramifications.  Is Natalee's disappearance an official FBI investigation?  Did the crew of Persistence interfere with an FBI investigation?  Is NBC complicit in any of this?  Did they or didn't they know what was in the left side of the cage?  They must have known at least by February when Kyle admittedly attempted to broker photographs of a crime scene.  The remains may have been located in Aruban waters, but it's becoming pretty obvious that the remains were those of an American citizen, the cage was a crime scene, and Persistence was an American vessel.  Obviously, the FBI has this information now, but I have no idea where the implications from all of this could lead.
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