Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 - 12/6/08

[Magnolia]

(on the boat)

Tim Miller: In my years of searching we have seen several bodies, skeletal remains--I have seen my own daughter's skeletal remains.  I can’t help but believe at this moment that that is human remains in that crab trap.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/




You were correct Tim Miller.  There were human remains in that crab trap and even a bunch of monkeys were able to blow up a few pictures to identify a skull and a pelvic bone.

When Tim Miller talked about the day they found the cage,
with the double rainbows and the dolphins leading the ship
out to sea, it was very touching to me.  There is no way
that man did not believe in what he was doing.

[2NJSons_Mom]

We've already noted that there was no entry for 1/7/08, per Kyle, due to internet problems.  I just noticed, however, that none of the entries really have any inkling of the cage in particular, or any findings, in particular, those from 12/29/07 - 12/31/07....also notice nothing posted on 12/30/07 but combined in the brief 12/31/07 post.  It seems that they were on the boat for long periods each day, but it's hard to tell if they docked every night.  If the ROV is deployed, then they may have had to stay out in the sea.  What if there was more than one trap?  How would Tim know the boat was over the same target on the 30th as they were on the 29th? 

Mon 31-Dec - 1022hrs
The Persistence spent yesterday performing multiple dives with the ROV. The purpose of the dives is for collecting video of each sonar target. Typically, the sonar target is quickly identified and ruled out from the ROV video. The ROV operations lasted until dusk, where we resumed sonar survey operations through the night. Today, we are performing more ROV dives on targets of potential interest.

Sun 29-Dec- 2335 hrs

Dockside, the ROV team went into action this morning on board the Persistence. Before a test dive could be performed, all systems were checked and rechecked. Once the diagnostics were complete, the Persistence and crew went out to a test dive site known to be free of obstructions and major hazards to the ROV. The purpose of testing the ROV was two fold: 1) ensure all systems function perfectly underwater in full operation mode, and 2) prove the Persistence could hold location over the ROV, track the vehicle, and maneuver itself to keep the ROV umbilical cable out of the ship's screws.
During the first test dive, the deployment went smoothly. The ROV motored to the bow of the boat, while the captain kept the stern of the Persistence into the seas. The purpose of this maneuver was to keep the ROV umbilical out of the ship's screws. During this maneuver, the umbilical got temporarily hung up on the ship's hull, but freed itself. The visibility through the water column with the ROV cameras was excellent. When the ROV reached the seafloor we noticed it could not maintain control over it's attitude because of the very strong currents. On the second and third test dive more weight was added to better control the umbilical and ROV. At dusk, the final test was successful and proved we could maintain safe control over both the Persistence and ROV. With a sigh of relief from all, the Persistence and crew resumed survey mode. We will run additional sonar lines into the early morning.

Sat. 29-Dec-1100 hrs
From Tim Miller:

Please allow me to give my sincere appreciation for all the comments supporting our efforts in our search for Natalee. Today is an exciting day as we will now begin working the ROV in hopes of finding a special treasure at the bottom of the sea named Natalee.

Let us keep Natalee, Dave, and Beth in our hearts and prayers. Also, let's not forget all the other families of missing loved ones.

Texas Equusearch has been so very blessed with the support of Underwater Expeditions, the R/V Persistence (Silvetti Group), and their crew - which I think is the best in the world- for all their heartfelt efforts.

May it be His will to bring Natalee home.
-Tim Miller
Texas Equusearch

http://nholloway.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2008-01-17T21%3A29%3A00-05%3A00&max-results=7

[Blue Moon]

I keep going back to the search and OE (Kyle) asked us what we thought they should do if they found Natalee's remains.  I do believe it was overwhelming that everyone said take the remains and LEAVE Aruba immediately.  Why did he ask this rhetorical question of SM and it's members and then not follow the advise given?   Does anyone remember when that conversation occurred here on the board?

[SS]

oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #739 3/3 -
« Reply #79 on: March 03, 2008, 05:47:47 PM »

Video 2: Dec 30th - ROV and Diver visual-only inspection of trap.  This is the dive Dateline and Tim Miller witnessed, also the dive footage the screen captures I made came from that were posted by Robin at BNH.  I sent these 6 screen shots to the FBI and the FBI only. I was shocked to see them posted.  I thought we had a security breach on the boat from my workstation or a leak from the FBI.  Turns out the FBI gave them to Dave H. after he couldn't get them from meAfter Tim Miller told Dave that we found her in a trap with 99.9% certainty (this is pre-diver inspection), Dave very reasonably requested them from me.  I badly wanted to send them to him, but couldn't.  Apparently, shortly therafter the FBI send the screen shots to Dave anyway, and therefore Robin had them. 

From what is posted here (in red and bolded)  Dateline was there when the 15:40 shot was taken.  And Tim.  Did  Tim see that shot?  And, did Kyle send the shot captured at 15:40 to the FBI?  If not, why?  If he did are we to assume that the FBI did not agree that this shot is of human remains?

Kyle's statement is wrong.  He sent the FBI the photographs that were taken on 12/29.  Kermit gave the FBI the photographs that were taken on 12/30.  The images that Dave/Robin received and posted were like the ones below.

[truthseeker2]

 Do we know which exact image or information Tim was relying on when he told Dave he was 99.9% certain that had found what they were looking for?

[wreck]

I keep going back to the search and OE (Kyle) asked us what we thought they should do if they found Natalee's remains.  I do believe it was overwhelming that everyone said take the remains and LEAVE Aruba immediately.  Why did he ask this rhetorical question of SM and it's members and then not follow the advise given?   Does anyone remember when that conversation occurred here on the board?

I had given up on any "justice" in the courts for Natalee BEFORE the Persistence search even started. All I ever wanted was to bring her home. To hell with Aruban justice.

[Kat_Gram]

Oh how convenient this all is. Tim Miller who has invested so much time etc before the search by the Persistence is not there when the samples come up and are whisked away by the Arubans. Some person named Marcos just has to come up with a she's alive story right at the same time.
As far as I am concerend, the recovery of the items in the cage was not done in a professional manner, else we would not be having this discussion. Pictures can look like other things. But everything that came out of that cage should not have been handed over to the Arubans. Doesn't matter to me what waters they were in, this should have been worked out before anyone got on the boat.
And furthermore I never ever believed that the search was for Natalee's remains. The mapping of the ocean floor, that information must have been worth alot of money to an oil exploration company. When Silvetti was asking for funds, I do believe I went to OE's blog and told him to get the money from the sale of the GIS mappings.  Now that I hear all of this, I think I was right and I stand with the Frog. 

[texasmom]

I keep going back to the search and OE (Kyle) asked us what we thought they should do if they found Natalee's remains.  I do believe it was overwhelming that everyone said take the remains and LEAVE Aruba immediately.  Why did he ask this rhetorical question of SM and it's members and then not follow the advise given?   Does anyone remember when that conversation occurred here on the board?

I had given up on any "justice" in the courts for Natalee BEFORE the Persistence search even started. All I ever wanted was to bring her home. To hell with Aruban justice.

My sentiments exactly, Wreck.

[Blue Moon]

Here is a post I made concerning Paulus and Anita watching the boat from shore.  Notice the date I made this post:

725       Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #710 1/03       on: January 06, 2008, 09:55:35 PM
Quote from: robots on January 06, 2008, 09:52:10 PM
i hope joran keeps drinking YARD after YARD

loose ugly lips sink Anita  Razz Cool


Have we had any news lately if this "sporter" is back at school or if he moved somewhere else is Holland?  Did you see today it was reported Anita and Paulus were observed on the beach watching the ship? How could they just stand there and not tell where Natalee is?  Disgusting pigs (MO).

[Kat_Gram]

"Aruban Justice " is an oxymoron.

[SS]

I keep going back to the search and OE (Kyle) asked us what we thought they should do if they found Natalee's remains.  I do believe it was overwhelming that everyone said take the remains and LEAVE Aruba immediately.  Why did he ask this rhetorical question of SM and it's members and then not follow the advise given?   Does anyone remember when that conversation occurred here on the board?

Blue Moon - let's hypothetically assume that they found a cage and there were no human remains in it, but there was a sneaker.  Or, maybe closer investigation of the cage showed just a denim skirt and a sneaker.  A missing sneaker has been a key piece of the Natatlee case since the very beginning.  Natalee was wearing a denim skirt when she disappeared.  Those two items by themselves should have indicated to the Persistence crew that they had found a possible crime scene.

[truthseeker2]

oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #739 3/3 -
« Reply #79 on: March 03, 2008, 05:47:47 PM »

Video 2: Dec 30th - ROV and Diver visual-only inspection of trap.  This is the dive Dateline and Tim Miller witnessed, also the dive footage the screen captures I made came from that were posted by Robin at BNH.  I sent these 6 screen shots to the FBI and the FBI only. I was shocked to see them posted.  I thought we had a security breach on the boat from my workstation or a leak from the FBI.  Turns out the FBI gave them to Dave H. after he couldn't get them from meAfter Tim Miller told Dave that we found her in a trap with 99.9% certainty (this is pre-diver inspection), Dave very reasonably requested them from me.  I badly wanted to send them to him, but couldn't.  Apparently, shortly therafter the FBI send the screen shots to Dave anyway, and therefore Robin had them. 

From what is posted here (in red and bolded)  Dateline was there when the 15:40 shot was taken.  And Tim.  Did  Tim see that shot?  And, did Kyle send the shot captured at 15:40 to the FBI?  If not, why?  If he did are we to assume that the FBI did not agree that this shot is of human remains?

Kyle's statement is wrong.  He sent the FBI the photographs that were taken on 12/29.  Kermit gave the FBI the photographs that were taken on 12/30.  The images that Dave/Robin received and posted were like the ones below.

In light of some of the discussions last night I find this pic a bit interesting.

The discussion that comes to mind was related to were the thumbs down signal was given from.  Some surmised that the ROV did not swing around towards the left, which is where they believed the human remains to be.  If you look at the pic you have posted here doesn't it look as though the opening is on the side of the trap at the far end? Not on the end, the short end of the trap?  And the shot itself is a 'straight on' shot of what may or may not be human remains as though the opening is on the end of the trap...not on the side of it.  So if I am seeing this correctly, the divers were in the right position to see what could be human remains, yet gave a thumbs down signal.

Do you see what I mean?

[truthseeker2]

"Aruban Justice " is an oxymoron.

LOL. True.  And those in charge of justice in Aruba are just simply morons!

[Kat_Gram]

And another thing, there must have been an agreement with Aruba to have that GIS mapping done. Before anyone got in the boat. Another country could not come into Canadian coastal waters and do that ( map the ocean floor ) without the express permission of the Canadian government. Unless it was a Canadian company that
sub contracted the job. And they would still need permission to do the mapping.   

[wreck]

And another thing, there must have been an agreement with Aruba to have that GIS mapping done. Before anyone got in the boat. Another country could not come into Canadian coastal waters and do that ( map the ocean floor ) without the express permission of the Canadian government. Unless it was a Canadian company that
sub contracted the job. And they would still need permission to do the mapping.   

Aruba is not on the "up and up" like Canada. Kermit hints at a business relationship with Silvetti and Jossy, though. (sorry to ruffle feathers)

[SS]

Do we know which exact image or information Tim was relying on when he told Dave he was 99.9% certain that had found what they were looking for?

We don't have that image and I don't know if one exists unless it's on the ROV footage.  Kyle discovered the cage very early on Christmas morning.  According to Kye, they did some claculations, etc.  Tim then contacted Dave.  Somewhere, in this thread or the last thread Kyle explains what he and Tim did.  I have never seen a photograph, though.  The photographs that were taken on 12/29 were four days after the cage was found.  I don't know how long it took them to send the ROV down for closeups or if the ROV had already been launched.  I don't know if once they launched the ROV it stayed in the water or if they had to relaunch it every day.  It could be possible that the ROV was in the water on 12/25 or maybe Kyle was just reviewing some ROV footage on 12/25.  It could very well be that the photographs on 12/29 were the first ones.


Does anyone have Kyle's description of Tim and him examining the cage for the first time?

[snoopy]

I find it difficult to read Kyle's statement, knowing what I now know.  He does implicate himself, though, because he very clearly states that they supervised the sampling of the trap.  He certainly didn't keep Beth informed, either, because it was Kermit who finally gave Beth the 12/30 photographs.

***********************

oceanexploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #736 2/27 -
« Reply #525 on: February 29, 2008, 02:58:40 AM »

I really didn't want to respond to all this but I feel I must. 

Please stop...and carefully think things through here.  You know who I mean.

WHAT do you think you are doing?  What do you seriously think you are going to accomplish with the pics?  Don't you even think to consider for a second that we the search team, who found the trap, supervised it's sampling, recorded that video and others... are ensuring the situation is in proper hands and being taken care of appropriately and completely?  

You are not helping anything by interfering with what you do not fully understand.  Please let the authorities do their jobs without interference.  

Robin should never have posted those pics because of the stir they would cause.  She trusted (mistakenly) people's ethics on a private forum.  One of the reasons (among many) that this case has taken so long to solve is because of the Internet, media, and well intended partially-informed people's ambitions and agendas.  Stay out of business you don't belong in.  You all know I am an ally both in the field and on the net. I have done my best to both bring success to this case and to keep people informed and updated with what information should be provided.  We the search team have worked extremely hard over a long time.  Many of you have as well.  Let's not let our frustrations get the best of us.  Let us not let our emotions interfere with what we know to be true, and let us not forget who we are and what jobs we have to do.  Let those who are responsible do their jobs.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2654.msg357200#msg357200

So they supervised the collection, but never had possession of evidence ?  Have I got that right?  WTH

Did anyone from the Persistence actually physically see/touch the evidence or was it all from viewing the monitor as the Aruban divers collected it?  This is not clear to me.

For crying out loud!!  Why in the world was the Aruban authorities completely trusted with this?  WTH 

[texasmom]

(on the boat)

Tim Miller: In my years of searching we have seen several bodies, skeletal remains--I have seen my own daughter's skeletal remains.  I can’t help but believe at this moment that that is human remains in that crab trap.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/4/




You were correct Tim Miller.  There were human remains in that crab trap and even a bunch of monkeys were able to blow up a few pictures to identify a skull and a pelvic bone.

When Tim Miller talked about the day they found the cage,
with the double rainbows and the dolphins leading the ship
out to sea, it was very touching to me.  There is no way
that man did not believe in what he was doing.

I agree with you Magnolia.  I've thought about that double rainbow, and those dolphins so many times.  Maybe it was all just for show, and never happened at all.  But if it wasn't, and it did; I can't help but think that Natalee had something to do with it.  I believe that Tim Miller's heart is as big as Texas, and he's walked in the shoes that Natalee's parents have; he has known that pain himself.  I think quite possibly those things, and how they help form his opinion on matters could very well be why he was considered a liability on that boat.  JMO  

[SS]

Here is a post I made concerning Paulus and Anita watching the boat from shore.  Notice the date I made this post:

725       Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #710 1/03       on: January 06, 2008, 09:55:35 PM
Quote from: robots on January 06, 2008, 09:52:10 PM
i hope joran keeps drinking YARD after YARD

loose ugly lips sink Anita  Razz Cool


Have we had any news lately if this "sporter" is back at school or if he moved somewhere else is Holland?  Did you see today it was reported Anita and Paulus were observed on the beach watching the ship? How could they just stand there and not tell where Natalee is?  Disgusting pigs (MO).

Blue Moon - didn't we have a photograph of the two of them standing on the beach watching Perisitence?  I would love to see that picture again.

[snoopy]

I keep going back to the search and OE (Kyle) asked us what we thought they should do if they found Natalee's remains.  I do believe it was overwhelming that everyone said take the remains and LEAVE Aruba immediately.  Why did he ask this rhetorical question of SM and it's members and then not follow the advise given?   Does anyone remember when that conversation occurred here on the board?

I remember that.  We told him to get her and get the heck outta there.  Raise that flag and bring her home.  Damn it.