Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 - 12/6/08

[Tamikosmom]

One more chi ching of 2 cents on this:

BECAUSE of the way this case has been corrupted by all who should have been investigating it, the door has always been wide open to explore any possibilities. In fact, the corruption is so deep, the cover-up so incredulous, the arrogance so blatent, that there just aren't any borders that define what could have happened, even when looked at by very reasonable people.

ITA. Like Beth said CBB, it goes all the way to the Hague!!!

Beth Twitty
On the Record w/ Greta
November 14, 2005

VAN SUSTEREN: : We're saying that even the AG is controlled by The Hague, so they're keeping Karen Janssen on ...

TWITTY: Well Greta, somebody is lobbying for Joran in the Hague in order to protect him ..... it has to be.

[caesu]

Here is his response:

thank you for your email. I am very busy with this case and I agree with your option.
 
gr. Hero Brinkman

I'm pleased that he took the time to write back to me.  However, after reading the interview with Brinkman just posted, I do admit I'm not really onboard with his suggestion that Netherlands cut Aruba loose.  They would essentially be giving the island to Chavez.  Although, I think in more ways than one, the Dutch on Aruba have already made their deal with this devil.  Maybe it would be best to just get it out in the open and the whole thing can be exposed.

i think this is just political tough talk by Brinkman the get the attention.
the Netherlands will never cut Aruba loose. this will be a major embarrassment.
because Chavez will grab the island in no time and get a lot closer to America.
the Dutch government will be blamed for letting that happen.
Aruba also doesn't want this i think. because they won't be independent in Venezuela.

Aruba think it can get away with everything because they know they won't be cut loose.
it is constant blackmail what Aruba does.
same with Plant Hotel, same with moving the Common Court to Aruba.
all under threat of derailing the Round Table Conference 15th December.

here is a debate in the Dutch parliament:
http://static.ikregeer.nl/pdf/KST125229.pdf
it is about the Plant Hotel reveneus.
political parties, left to right accuse Aruba of blackmailing.
als Remkes is especially though - he was Home Affairs Minister in 2005.
maybe Rudy Croes accused him of racism?

[AZLady]

Going by what we know happened in the past 3 1/2 years, it is completely plausible to believe that the coverup continued and extended to the contents of the cage.  In fact, posts made by people like OE support this belief.  If this can be proven with hard evidence (such as the ROV video and pics), then there are many more in addition to Van der Stratten and PVDS who will go down.  Start with the people in those pics--Mos, Eduardo Mansur, et al, and then go back to Janssen, Van der Stratten, Dompig and Croes.  This is really larger than most people have grasped.  How do you prosecute half an island?   

[wreck]

LDSTLOU - in a due respect, we can focus on more than one issue at a time.  The fact the Rudy is calling out Van der Straaten is not lost on any of us.  We have not lost sight nor dismissed the possibility of FINALLY something happening, some kind of justice in Aruba.

That said, it has no bearing on side discussions of how we got to to this point and where Natalee was disposed of/hidden.

I am done. When in the heck did I say NOT to focus on something???!!! Let me reiterate!!!! kermit is saying in one breath the family has Natalee's body and is hiding that fact from the world. In another breath that the ALE has her body and Kyle was complicit in that cover up. I am saying BULLSHIT to both!!!! Why am I saying bullshit? Because I asked Jug and gave you his answer...and you know I asked him Klaas. Now the references that I am a liar...and the family is lying...and I simply STATING!!!! what Jug asked me to convey to you all this morning...to pray and focus on van der straaten!!! I never once said what to discuss or not to discuss...with all due respect!

Lisa, Lisa, Lisa, -- please don't get upset. Did you ever stop to think that maybe Jug is telling you what the family WANTS you to hear??

[2NJSons_Mom]

SS, I had it ready to post, but see that Klaasend beat me to it.  No surprise.

[Ono]

DECEMBER 2, 2008

JOHN Q. KELLY, ATTORNEY FOR HOLLOWAY FAMILY

Holloway Attorney: Pleas for Arrest Met With 'Deafening Silence'
Wednesday, December 03, 2008

GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, FOX NEWS HOST: "Arrest them." That's what the lawyer for Natalee Holloway's family told the Aruban prosecutor. Joran van der Sloot told us "On the Record" that he sold Natalee Holloway on a beach in Aruba ...

Transcript:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,460908,00.html


Holloway attorney awaits answer after demanding Joran van der Sloot's arrest

Video:http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=3265793&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/ontherecord/index.html

+++++++++++

DECEMBER 4, 2008

JOHN Q. KELLY, ATTORNEY FOR HOLLOWAY FAMILY
MICHAEL CARDOZA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY
JOSSY MANSUR, DIARIO NEWSPAPER IN ARUBA

Holloway Cover-up By Aruban Law Enforcement?
Friday, December 05, 2008

GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, FOX NEWS HOST: John Q. Kelly, you have a voicemail. Well, the lawyer for Natalee Holloway's family has been trying to get Aruban's chief prosecutor, Hans Mos. Well, Mos finally returned Mr. Kelly's call, and apparently left John Kelly a rather nasty voicemail. John Q. Kelly is with us ...

Transcript:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,462349,00.html


NO CALL WAITING
Aruban prosecutor calls Holloway's attorney

Video:
http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=3265793&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/ontherecord/index.html

Janet:  Your secretarial skills are just invaluable to me !  I want to take this opportunity to thank you as I get caught up with things I've missed because of your dedication !!

Kudos to Greta and JQK !!!

[AZLady]

Here is his response:

thank you for your email. I am very busy with this case and I agree with your option.
 
gr. Hero Brinkman

I'm pleased that he took the time to write back to me.  However, after reading the interview with Brinkman just posted, I do admit I'm not really onboard with his suggestion that Netherlands cut Aruba loose.  They would essentially be giving the island to Chavez.  Although, I think in more ways than one, the Dutch on Aruba have already made their deal with this devil.  Maybe it would be best to just get it out in the open and the whole thing can be exposed.

i think this is just political tough talk by Brinkman the get the attention.
the Netherlands will never cut Aruba loose. this will be a major embarrassment.
because Chavez will grab the island in no time and get a lot closer to America.
the Dutch government will be blamed for letting that happen.
Aruba also doesn't want this i think. because they won't be independent in Venezuela.

Aruba think it can get away with everything because they know they won't be cut loose.
it is constant blackmail what Aruba does.
same with Plant Hotel, same with moving the Common Court to Aruba.
all under threat of derailing the Round Table Conference 15th December.

here is a debate in the Dutch parliament:
http://static.ikregeer.nl/pdf/KST125229.pdf
it is about the Plant Hotel reveneus.
political parties, left to right accuse Aruba of blackmailing.
als Remkes is especially though - he was Home Affairs Minister in 2005.
maybe Rudy Croes accused him of racism?

Yes, I gathered as much.  Even though Aruba talks tough to the motherland, they need the money and know they can't survive independently without being subsumed by Chavez.  The Netherlands knows they can't cut Aruba loose without upsetting the whole Caribbean balance of power, not to mention the US and Mexican reaction to such a deed.  So, they are caught in a checkmate with Netherlands holding the purse strings and threatening, and Aruba shouting back like a belligerant teenager.  Netherlands needs to act like a responsible parent and put some rules into place that they can enforce.  A good place to start would be to eliminate the corrupted behavior and people from the island, and then require more accountability from Aruba.  There are ways to responsibly parent even an unruly teenager, but they are not easy or comfortable for all involved.

[MumInOhio]

Going by what we know happened in the past 3 1/2 years, it is completely plausible to believe that the coverup continued and extended to the contents of the cage.  In fact, posts made by people like OE support this belief.  If this can be proven with hard evidence (such as the ROV video and pics), then there are many more in addition to Van der Stratten and PVDS who will go down.  Start with the people in those pics--Mos, Eduardo Mansur, et al, and then go back to Janssen, Van der Stratten, Dompig and Croes.  This is really larger than most people have grasped.  How do you prosecute half an island?   

Wasn't the dive on January 7th. from another boat? I don't think Kyle identified those divers, or us.

Who told Kyle they didn't have dive capabilities? TIA

[blah]

Buckshot,

Good advice. While I think the cage story is important, it's more important to go back to the beginning.

In fact, I think more focus should be on the van der sloot house.

Jan van der straaten "saw" the evidence, meaning, I believe, that he saw Natalee.

Karin Janssen and Jan van der straaten gave Paulus 10 days. This alone is so incredibly sickening.

IMO Frank they've got enough to arrest Van der Straten RIGHT NOW for obstruction of justice. There are two eye witness accounts of Jan saying he couldn't arrest his best friend's son. They need to haul Straten in and let him start spilling the beans and then the house of cards will start to crumble.

You have both been around since very early.  Do you recall that the first translation of what vd Straten actually said was "Because I have seen the evidence and you haven't!" 

Then later it got changed, as did so many things, to having seen the investigative evidence or investigation.  But originally it was translated as though he meant he had seen the proof that Natalee was dead.

Same as no corpse, no case morphed into no body, no case as it just sounds so much nicer than what was actually said.

MO

I know you werent asking me, but I remember

[SS]

Thank you Klass (and your efforts, too, 2NJ).  That is exactly the photograph that I was looking for.  I ask the question again - why is there only one sneaker in the cage?  Didn't Caps say that a sneaker was recovered when Manserat was drained this past Spring?   1+1=2.

[AZLady]

Well, SS, this is confusing, isn't it?  Joran's one bloody sneaker was in his room.  However, the second sneaker can't be both in the cage and in the pond.  I do see the picture of a similar sneaker in the cage, but I have not seen a picture of the sneaker that was supposed to be recovered from the pond.  So, if I have to choose, I believe what I see in the picture of the cage.  If other evidence is provided, then I might change my mind, but this is what I see now.

[blah]

Just remembered the day Sharon noticed a post in the Jan Van der Straten thread.....now wonder if something was brewing a couple of weeks ago, before Rudy spoke up...or not...another coincidental post?  Hmmmmm

i would like to ask people to stop speculating my uncle's involvement. I find it awful to read how people disregard him. If you have any questions regarding him, please PM me, private.

Thank you.

Marieke

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=3028.20

Ah, good point.  I had forgotten about this post. 

Has anyone PM'ed her yet to find out reactions to the latest news?

[AZLady]

Going by what we know happened in the past 3 1/2 years, it is completely plausible to believe that the coverup continued and extended to the contents of the cage.  In fact, posts made by people like OE support this belief.  If this can be proven with hard evidence (such as the ROV video and pics), then there are many more in addition to Van der Stratten and PVDS who will go down.  Start with the people in those pics--Mos, Eduardo Mansur, et al, and then go back to Janssen, Van der Stratten, Dompig and Croes.  This is really larger than most people have grasped.  How do you prosecute half an island?   

Wasn't the dive on January 7th. from another boat? I don't think Kyle identified those divers, or us.

Who told Kyle they didn't have dive capabilities? TIA

Yes.  Kyle said that the Arubans dove from their own boat and returned to their own boat.  Tim Miller was not present at this time.

[SS]

Going by what we know happened in the past 3 1/2 years, it is completely plausible to believe that the coverup continued and extended to the contents of the cage.  In fact, posts made by people like OE support this belief.  If this can be proven with hard evidence (such as the ROV video and pics), then there are many more in addition to Van der Stratten and PVDS who will go down.  Start with the people in those pics--Mos, Eduardo Mansur, et al, and then go back to Janssen, Van der Stratten, Dompig and Croes.  This is really larger than most people have grasped.  How do you prosecute half an island?   

Wasn't the dive on January 7th. from another boat? I don't think Kyle identified those divers, or us.

Who told Kyle they didn't have dive capabilities? TIA

Mum - according to Kyle the divers dove from their own boat on January 7th and weren't onboard the Persistence.  The specific divers haven't been identified, but I think an assumption was made that it was someone involved with Aruba Search and Rescue because that same individual was photographed the prior week omboard the Peristence.  Kyle refused to identify the diver in the photograph.  The quote from Kyle about dive capabilities was in reference to the Panter a week later, on January 11th and 12th when he watched th ship from the beach.  Kermit did post a photograph with two or three divers under water and next to the cage, but I don't know where that photograph is now and I don't recall that the divers were identified.

[MumInOhio]

Well, SS, this is confusing, isn't it?  Joran's one bloody sneaker was in his room.  However, the second sneaker can't be both in the cage and in the pond.  I do see the picture of a similar sneaker in the cage, but I have not seen a picture of the sneaker that was supposed to be recovered from the pond.  So, if I have to choose, I believe what I see in the picture of the cage.  If other evidence is provided, then I might change my mind, but this is what I see now.

Yes...there appears to be 3 sneakers.

Can't remember what happened with the previous discussions on this. Can't find anything on the search either! SS...do you remember? Thanks!

[Magnolia]

Going by what we know happened in the past 3 1/2 years, it is completely plausible to believe that the coverup continued and extended to the contents of the cage.  In fact, posts made by people like OE support this belief.  If this can be proven with hard evidence (such as the ROV video and pics), then there are many more in addition to Van der Stratten and PVDS who will go down.  Start with the people in those pics--Mos, Eduardo Mansur, et al, and then go back to Janssen, Van der Stratten, Dompig and Croes.  This is really larger than most people have grasped.  How do you prosecute half an island?   

Wasn't the dive on January 7th. from another boat? I don't think Kyle identified those divers, or us.

Who told Kyle they didn't have dive capabilities? TIA

Yes.  Kyle said that the Arubans dove from their own boat and returned to their own boat.  Tim Miller was not present at this time.

I believe that it was the Panter Coast Guard boat that said it
had no dive capabilities.

[2NJSons_Mom]

Going by what we know happened in the past 3 1/2 years, it is completely plausible to believe that the coverup continued and extended to the contents of the cage.  In fact, posts made by people like OE support this belief.  If this can be proven with hard evidence (such as the ROV video and pics), then there are many more in addition to Van der Stratten and PVDS who will go down.  Start with the people in those pics--Mos, Eduardo Mansur, et al, and then go back to Janssen, Van der Stratten, Dompig and Croes.  This is really larger than most people have grasped.  How do you prosecute half an island?   

Wasn't the dive on January 7th. from another boat? I don't think Kyle identified those divers, or us.

Who told Kyle they didn't have dive capabilities? TIA

Mum - according to Kyle the divers dove from their own boat on January 7th and weren't onboard the Persistence.  The specific divers haven't been identified, but I think an assumption was made that it was someone involved with Aruba Search and Rescue because that same individual was photographed the prior week omboard the Peristence.  Kyle refused to identify the diver in the photograph.  The quote from Kyle about dive capabilities was in reference to the Panter a week later, on January 11th and 12th when he watched th ship from the beach.  Kermit did post a photograph with two or three divers under water and next to the cage, but I don't know where that photograph is now and I don't recall that the divers were identified.

Blonde's thread, The Search for Natalee Holloway has most of the pictures.  I think these screen shots of divers may be what you are thinking of.

Note date on  screenshots and with 3 divers

[Tamikosmom]

Buckshot,

Good advice. While I think the cage story is important, it's more important to go back to the beginning.

In fact, I think more focus should be on the van der sloot house.

Jan van der straaten "saw" the evidence, meaning, I believe, that he saw Natalee.

Karin Janssen and Jan van der straaten gave Paulus 10 days. This alone is so incredibly sickening.

IMO Frank they've got enough to arrest Van der Straten RIGHT NOW for obstruction of justice. There are two eye witness accounts of Jan saying he couldn't arrest his best friend's son. They need to haul Straten in and let him start spilling the beans and then the house of cards will start to crumble.

You have both been around since very early.  Do you recall that the first translation of what vd Straten actually said was "Because I have seen the evidence and you haven't!" 

Then later it got changed, as did so many things, to having seen the investigative evidence or investigation.  But originally it was translated as though he meant he had seen the proof that Natalee was dead.

Same as no corpse, no case morphed into no body, no case as it just sounds so much nicer than what was actually said.

MO

ATA/AHATA and their internet and media trolls twisted everything from Dutch law to transcripts to evidence. Now that we know that ATA/AHATA was running the investigation with Joran's lawyer, Paulus' business partner, Antonio Carlo sitting on the board they need to bust them along with Vander Straten and Karin Jannsen. They need to bring the whole damned house down, and drag Cohen, Vilella, Pauley and all the other traitorous Americans down with them.

Dayhiker

It is not going to happen!!

I contend that "throwing Jan van Straaten under the bus" is a well thought out Aruban plan to bring closure to the Natalee Holloway case and ... Jan van Straaten has been provided with either threats or incentives to cooperate.  In other words ... Straaten has agreed to be the sacrificial lamb.  He has agreed to take the slap on the wrist as a consequence for obstructing the investigation in the first ten days and ... allowing all crucial evidence required to bring the suspects to justice to be destroyed.

Otherwise ... there would be a domino affect that would be very far reaching in regards to all who were involved in the happenings of the morning of May 30, 2005 ... all who where  involved in the events that led up to the happenings  of the morning of May 30, 200t and ... all those within the Dutch/Aruba administration who are involved in the coverup that has denied Natalee Holloway justice and ... put her family through a H--- on Earth for 3 1/2 years.

To make this case go away ... Rudy Croes may concede to a botched investigation caused by one of Aruba's own but ... he is not about to flush Aruba down the toilet.

Janet

[MumInOhio]

Going by what we know happened in the past 3 1/2 years, it is completely plausible to believe that the coverup continued and extended to the contents of the cage.  In fact, posts made by people like OE support this belief.  If this can be proven with hard evidence (such as the ROV video and pics), then there are many more in addition to Van der Stratten and PVDS who will go down.  Start with the people in those pics--Mos, Eduardo Mansur, et al, and then go back to Janssen, Van der Stratten, Dompig and Croes.  This is really larger than most people have grasped.  How do you prosecute half an island?   

Wasn't the dive on January 7th. from another boat? I don't think Kyle identified those divers, or us.

Who told Kyle they didn't have dive capabilities? TIA

Mum - according to Kyle the divers dove from their own boat on January 7th and weren't onboard the Persistence.  The specific divers haven't been identified, but I think an assumption was made that it was someone involved with Aruba Search and Rescue because that same individual was photographed the prior week omboard the Peristence.  Kyle refused to identify the diver in the photograph.  The quote from Kyle about dive capabilities was in reference to the Panter a week later, on January 11th and 12th when he watched th ship from the beach.  Kermit did post a photograph with two or three divers under water and next to the cage, but I don't know where that photograph is now and I don't recall that the divers were identified.

OK...Thanks...Recall something on December 30th. about equiptment taking 10 to 14 days to get in. I "thought" this was do do with sifting the sand. Will go back and check if that was what was said as well.

Panter was there 11th. and 12th....42 minutes each time.

[AZLady]

Dive capabilities?  What's that mean?  People dive off of sailboats, catamarans, and many other types of boats.  I didn't know a boat had to have "dive capabilities."  That makes it sound like a submarine or something, and not a boat from which people could deep sea dive.  Is this obfuscation or am I just not getting it?