Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 - 12/6/08

[AZLady]

So, Kyle did communicate his concerns about a coverup and possible destruction of evidence to the family at least before March 20.  At least that's how I interpret this post from Private Eye.

private eye beth's brother  March 20, 2008
Kyle I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made,

Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received. I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made, and reminded her that the press release said that the material did not match her blouse. I also pointed out that in the December 30 photo there appeared to be a skull and in the January 7, it did not look at all like a skull. But I did think I noticed a second object in one of the zip lock bags that could possibly be the object that resembled a skull, possibly. I am a little amazed that the denim looks remarkably NOT deteriorated. Mostly I was trying to pique her interest to get her to contact the appropriate people. I think Dave worked closely with the owner of the boat, so he may well have already done this. But I know Beth appreciates the heads up, as do I. You are a good man. I did tell her my main concern was that you were concerned, and that I respect and trust your judgment enough for her to investigate this. Thanks.

AZ - I could be wrong, but I think this was when Kermit got involved.  Obviously PI didn't know much about denim or he wouldn't have been asking about it on the SM Forum.

No, this appears to be the time that Kyle expressed his concern about a cover up to Private Eye and he passed this along to Beth. 

PI says:
Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received.

I thought Kermit said that she was the one who finally sent the photographs to Beth, because Kyle didn't do it??? 

According to PI, Kyle "communicated" his concerns to him and he passed that to Beth.  PI says nothing about photographs.

[Anna]

You may recall that it was Rudy Croes who replaced Uncle Jan with Dompig.  This is the response from the police union which leads me to believe that it is they who put Uncle Jan back in control:

Investigation of the Police Force is not necessary
by A.M. Digital

Posted: Jul 9, 2005 18:10 UTC

ORANJESTAD - The Natalee Holloway case certainly has Aruba upside down. There is a lot of pressure on the Government and on the investigating team.

According to Eric Zaandam, president of the Police union SPA, it is unfortunate that the case has not yet been solved, but more unfortunate are the negative expressions towards the police force by amongst others the Minister of Justice, Rudy Croes, and by Prime Minister Nelson Oduber.

“This is to regretted because, instead of receiving support our own Government dignitaries express themselves negatively about the police” said Zaandam. “Minister Rudy Croes even mentioned that he will bring in a police team from Curaçao to investigate their colleagues in Aruba.”

Eric Zaandam wishes for the Minister of Justice to understand once and for all that the investigating team is responsible and has to report to the Public Prosecutor, and this happens all the time. The investigating team has no obligation to report to anybody else, including the Minister of Justice. The Minister may well bring any team from abroad but the Aruba Police Force will not report to any team.

Those that wish to have information will have to knock on the door at the Public Prosecutor’s office and not interrogate any member of the investigating team, according to the union leader. Minister Croes should not try to play the police forces of other islands against the Aruba police force.

SPA learned of the intentions of the Aruba Minister of Justice when they were in Surinam to commemorate 100 years of existence of the Surinam police force. Here they advised their colleague from the Netherlands Antilles not to fall in the trap of the Aruba Minister. SPA also contacted the Netherlands Antillean Police Union on the matter.

If the Aruba Minister of Justice wants information, he will have to approach the Public Prosecutor, and not accuse any member of the investigating team of leaking information. The investigating team did not commit any crime and an investigation is not necessary.

“The Aruba Police have already cooperated with all the teams that wished to help with the investigation of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, except Scotland Yard” said Zaandam.

In police circles it is already agreed that they will not collaborate with any team that comes in to investigate the investigating team of the Natalee Holloway case.

http://news.caribseek.com/set-up/exec/view.cgi?archive=72&num=16771

[Dayhiker]

Janet, this is the highest profile international missing person/murder case certainly in the last decade. Van der Straten has got to be in his mid-to-late 60s. Do you think he's going to throw whatever legacy of his career he has in the toilet and spend the last few years of his life in KIA for money he can't even spend?

I don't think any of them including Uncle Jan thinks for a second that there would be actual jail terms involved no matter of what they are accused.

Note we have not seen so much as an interrogation thus far from all of this.  For that matter, he could just leave beyond their reach to somewhere there is not jurisdiction, lol.

I don't believe for one moment any of them including Uncle Jan actually fear spending a night behind bars following a conviction even.

jmo

If this were some kind of set-up where Jan would take the fall but not go to prison that would only create a much larger backlash against Aruba. To verify that corruption did take place on Aruba and then not do anything about it would be suicide. It makes no sense to me that they would bring this out into the open on top of the whole sex slavery controversy.

This has got to be killing Aruba. If Rudy wanted to cover it up he would have kept his mouth shut. If he were concerned about the Aruban economy he would have kept his mouth shut. This leads me to believe there are other motives at work here.

[SS]

I am so upset about all of these cage findings.  So many of us have given our time, hearts, and souls in an attempt to find justice for Natalee.  This cage just keeps growing and the web is just getting bigger.  It's not just ALE now, it's coming from within.  Is this just the tip of an iceburg?  Kermit just posted that there's more to come.  Where will it end?  I am personally just devastated by all of this.  Bring it on Kermit, there's no reason to hold it back at this point.

[crazybabyborg]

I just replaced color, and that really does look like a skull and shoe, to me anyway.

[Anna]

I just replaced color, and that really does look like a skull and shoe, to me anyway.

A pair of shoes and a skull.

Again I ask who were the experts who said that the remains in the trap belonged to Natalee?

Maybe they didn't and belonged instead to someone with a service cap.
We seem to know less with each passing day.  Oddly enough.

[AZLady]

Janet, I agree.  I do believe Kyle was naive and trusting, as his youth would indicate.  I also understand his position as a junior member of the crew and an employee of Silvetti.  He does state that Silvetti told him never to mention the cage again.  This implies to me that Kyle may have voiced his concerns about the cage and its contents, after which Silvetti told him to shut up.  Kyle is in the position of very young junior employee on a relatively small boat who cannot, realistically, do what his employer has specifically told him not to do.  However, when did the Persistence arrive back in the US and end its trip?  This would have been when Kyle would no longer be employed by Silvetti or under his orders.  Is this about when Kyle decided he had to speak to PI?  He still should have gone to Beth and the FBI, not PI.

[caesu]

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_50164.php

this is an interesting article. i hope it appears tomorrow in English.

it says on Tuesday there was a uncomfortable debate in the Kingdom cabinet about the location of the Common Court.
Rudy Croes wants this to be moved to Aruba.

Prime Minister Balkenende had to step in and had a teleconference with Oduber on Aruba.
but Oduber also said he wanted the Common Court in Aruba.

the Kingdom Cabinet even gave Aruba a ultimatum. Aruba had to back down before 12:00 Thursday.
but Aruba didn't.

also Rudy Croes is accusing the AVP (opposition party) of making deals with the CDA.
the CDA is the governing party of Balkenende, Hirsch Ballin, Bijleveld.

this explains to me why Rudy Croes made this statement yesterday, acussing a Dutch minister of racism.
and outing Jan van der Straten.

and very important bit is that the Dutch are contemplating to use Kingdom Law 14 on Aruba.
this is about legal certainty. in fact saying the justice system of Aruba is not working properly.
so of course the Dutch don't want that Common Court on Aruba.
(i am going to read what this Kingdom Law 14 exactly can do)

there is a lot going on behind the scenes. to be continued in the coming weeks before the Christmass recess.

[Dayhiker]

Rudy Croes Is A Buffoon

Croes is of the opinion that the solving of the case is with the three Dutchmen Van der Straten and Paul and Joran van der Sloot. He says that a new investigation team must come that consists of Arubans, Antilleans, and Americans. "Why did it never occur to them to remove Jan van der Straten from his position after those ten ill-bred days?

Who is "them", Rudy? 

Who are "they"?

"They" are YOU.

You are the MINISTER OF JUSTICE.  You have the power to order an investigation.  Make it so.  Order it.  Get on the phone and call John Kelly and request a reccomendation for an independent and objective investigative force composed of AMERICAN law enforcement personnnel.  Do it.  Do it now.

Who are you trying to shift blame to?

Who is "them"?

.

I think that they did remove Van der Straaten from the case early on
and put Dompig in charge.
Van der Straaten sued to get his position back as head of the investigation
One of Paulus' judge buddies put Van der Straaten back in charge of the case.

The Police union, which was already threatening to strike when Natalee disappeared, are the ones who put vd Straten back in charge and say they will NEVER cooperate with any investigation of ALE.

IIRC both Rudy and Oduber tried to remove Van der Straten, Oduber at least expressed concern about him. Straten was removed for three days around the time Dompig made that "hold your breath for 24 hours" remark, about the same time Joran was leading them to the body, and a day or so later Van der Straten was reinstated. This was around June 10-12 I think. That alone is suspicious in itself. They found her, then they didn't find her.

[Dayhiker]

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_50164.php

this is an interesting article. i hope it appears tomorrow in English.

it says on Tuesday there was a uncomfortable debate in the Kingdom cabinet about the location of the Common Court.
Rudy Croes wants this to be moved to Aruba.

Prime Minister Balkenende had to step in and had a teleconference with Oduber on Aruba.
but Oduber also said he wanted the Common Court in Aruba.

the Kingdom Cabinet even gave Aruba a ultimatum. Aruba had to back down before 12:00 Thursday.
but Aruba didn't.

also Rudy Croes is accusing the AVP (opposition party) of making deals with the CDA.
the CDA is the governing party of Balkenende, Hirsch Ballin, Bijleveld.

this explains to me why Rudy Croes made this statement yesterday, acussing a Dutch minister of racism.
and outing Jan van der Straten.

and very important bit is that the Dutch are contemplating to use Kingdom Law 14 on Aruba.
this is about legal certainty. in fact saying the justice system of Aruba is not working properly.
so of course the Dutch don't want that Common Court on Aruba.
(i am going to read what this Kingdom Law 14 exactly can do)

there is a lot going on behind the scenes. to be continued in the coming weeks before the Christmass recess.

Thanks Caesu! I hope they keep talking, this is getting very interesting.

[Frank]

Jan van der straaten will get another chance. All he has to leverage now is the truth, it has value to him.

I would be okay with  him exchanging that truth with leniency. The shame will be enough punishment.

But he will bring down the van der sloots and Dennis Jacobs and Karin Janssen. I don't believe van der straaten's crime started until he got a call from Paulus.

I would trade jail time for Jan in exchange for the truth. How did Natalee die Jan? And what did Paulus say when he called you?

Over.

[SS]

I just replaced color, and that really does look like a skull and shoe, to me anyway.

Great photography work, CBB!!!  If we could prove that the white shoe with blue stripes is the same shoe that Urine was wearing when seen by the witness, we could prove a cover up and we could very likely send Urine to jail.  Sadly, that evidence disappeared on January 7th under the watch of the Americans for whom we were cheering.

[AZLady]

You may recall that it was Rudy Croes who replaced Uncle Jan with Dompig.  This is the response from the police union which leads me to believe that it is they who put Uncle Jan back in control:

Investigation of the Police Force is not necessary
by A.M. Digital

Posted: Jul 9, 2005 18:10 UTC

ORANJESTAD - The Natalee Holloway case certainly has Aruba upside down. There is a lot of pressure on the Government and on the investigating team.

According to Eric Zaandam, president of the Police union SPA, it is unfortunate that the case has not yet been solved, but more unfortunate are the negative expressions towards the police force by amongst others the Minister of Justice, Rudy Croes, and by Prime Minister Nelson Oduber.

“This is to regretted because, instead of receiving support our own Government dignitaries express themselves negatively about the police” said Zaandam. “Minister Rudy Croes even mentioned that he will bring in a police team from Curaçao to investigate their colleagues in Aruba.”

Eric Zaandam wishes for the Minister of Justice to understand once and for all that the investigating team is responsible and has to report to the Public Prosecutor, and this happens all the time. The investigating team has no obligation to report to anybody else, including the Minister of Justice. The Minister may well bring any team from abroad but the Aruba Police Force will not report to any team.

Those that wish to have information will have to knock on the door at the Public Prosecutor’s office and not interrogate any member of the investigating team, according to the union leader. Minister Croes should not try to play the police forces of other islands against the Aruba police force.

SPA learned of the intentions of the Aruba Minister of Justice when they were in Surinam to commemorate 100 years of existence of the Surinam police force. Here they advised their colleague from the Netherlands Antilles not to fall in the trap of the Aruba Minister. SPA also contacted the Netherlands Antillean Police Union on the matter.

If the Aruba Minister of Justice wants information, he will have to approach the Public Prosecutor, and not accuse any member of the investigating team of leaking information. The investigating team did not commit any crime and an investigation is not necessary.

“The Aruba Police have already cooperated with all the teams that wished to help with the investigation of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, except Scotland Yard” said Zaandam.

In police circles it is already agreed that they will not collaborate with any team that comes in to investigate the investigating team of the Natalee Holloway case.

http://news.caribseek.com/set-up/exec/view.cgi?archive=72&num=16771

Ah, yes.  And remember when Arlene tried to explain to us the intricacies of the separate government entities?  According to her, the Minister of Justice could not tell the police chief or his men what to do and despite his title as Minister of Justice, he had to request information from the Prosecutor who didn't always cooperate with him.  They were described as three separate entities that defended their independence from each other and worked as often against each other as together.  I remember I found this very odd indeed.

[Anna]

Rudy Croes Is A Buffoon

Croes is of the opinion that the solving of the case is with the three Dutchmen Van der Straten and Paul and Joran van der Sloot. He says that a new investigation team must come that consists of Arubans, Antilleans, and Americans. "Why did it never occur to them to remove Jan van der Straten from his position after those ten ill-bred days?

Who is "them", Rudy? 

Who are "they"?

"They" are YOU.

You are the MINISTER OF JUSTICE.  You have the power to order an investigation.  Make it so.  Order it.  Get on the phone and call John Kelly and request a recommendation for an independent and objective investigative force composed of AMERICAN law enforcement personnel.  Do it.  Do it now.

Who are you trying to shift blame to?

Who is "them"?

.

I think that they did remove Van der Straaten from the case early on
and put Dompig in charge.
Van der Straaten sued to get his position back as head of the investigation
One of Paulus' judge buddies put Van der Straaten back in charge of the case.

The Police union, which was already threatening to strike when Natalee disappeared, are the ones who put vd Straten back in charge and say they will NEVER cooperate with any investigation of ALE.

IIRC both Rudy and Oduber tried to remove Van der Straten, Oduber at least expressed concern about him. Straten was removed for three days around the time Dompig made that "hold your breath for 24 hours" remark, about the same time Joran was leading them to the body, and a day or so later Van der Straten was reinstated. This was around June 10-12 I think. That alone is suspicious in itself. They found her, then they didn't find her.

Exactly!  This is what I keep squawking about! 

For the brief time Dompig was in charge, there was a confession and we were being led to the body.

Then poof!  Dompig out and Uncle Jan back in and nothing!

Who put Uncle Jan back in?  I think the police union which is the AVP party supporters.

And do recall that Jossy has supported vd Straten as well in the past along with Karin Jansen whom he named woman of the year for some unknown reason.  He was convinced they were trying to do the right thing.

[always 1]

I have a question for anyone......If the person in the cage was not Natalee, and her parents are satisfied with that, but yet we still see a skull, I have forgotten where the other blond girl was from.   Was she American???  Can we not pursue her death if she was???? (and Im sorry if this is a stupid question)

[klaasend]

You may recall that it was Rudy Croes who replaced Uncle Jan with Dompig.  This is the response from the police union which leads me to believe that it is they who put Uncle Jan back in control:

Investigation of the Police Force is not necessary
by A.M. Digital

Posted: Jul 9, 2005 18:10 UTC

ORANJESTAD - The Natalee Holloway case certainly has Aruba upside down. There is a lot of pressure on the Government and on the investigating team.

According to Eric Zaandam, president of the Police union SPA, it is unfortunate that the case has not yet been solved, but more unfortunate are the negative expressions towards the police force by amongst others the Minister of Justice, Rudy Croes, and by Prime Minister Nelson Oduber.

“This is to regretted because, instead of receiving support our own Government dignitaries express themselves negatively about the police” said Zaandam. “Minister Rudy Croes even mentioned that he will bring in a police team from Curaçao to investigate their colleagues in Aruba.”

Eric Zaandam wishes for the Minister of Justice to understand once and for all that the investigating team is responsible and has to report to the Public Prosecutor, and this happens all the time. The investigating team has no obligation to report to anybody else, including the Minister of Justice. The Minister may well bring any team from abroad but the Aruba Police Force will not report to any team.

Those that wish to have information will have to knock on the door at the Public Prosecutor’s office and not interrogate any member of the investigating team, according to the union leader. Minister Croes should not try to play the police forces of other islands against the Aruba police force.

SPA learned of the intentions of the Aruba Minister of Justice when they were in Surinam to commemorate 100 years of existence of the Surinam police force. Here they advised their colleague from the Netherlands Antilles not to fall in the trap of the Aruba Minister. SPA also contacted the Netherlands Antillean Police Union on the matter.

If the Aruba Minister of Justice wants information, he will have to approach the Public Prosecutor, and not accuse any member of the investigating team of leaking information. The investigating team did not commit any crime and an investigation is not necessary.

“The Aruba Police have already cooperated with all the teams that wished to help with the investigation of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, except Scotland Yard” said Zaandam.

In police circles it is already agreed that they will not collaborate with any team that comes in to investigate the investigating team of the Natalee Holloway case.

http://news.caribseek.com/set-up/exec/view.cgi?archive=72&num=16771

Anna - refresh my memory.  Stanley Zandaam is the one who has written the book and also the one who came out and said Natalee's body may have been found early in the case?  Do I have my Zandaam's mixed up or correct?

[ala_gunslinger]

What has changed?

Hey ya'll.

Gun

[Tamikosmom]

I believe Van der Straten will not go down without a fight, Janet, and he'll drag anybody he can down with him. That opens up a big ole can of worms for a lot of people on Aruba and others like Jannsen who have fled the island.

If the Dutch investigate, which I believe they will be forced to do, Jan will not be the only one that gets looked at. Ben Vocking, Jannsen, Jacobs, the Dutch judges, all need to be looked at.

Holland and Hans are getting smeared big time in the international media. There are so many corruption angles Aruba is getting hit by right now it boggles the mind. Hans' pathethetic strategy to once again closed the case is, once again, being derailed.

The beauty of all this is barrage is: how can they even think about closing the case now?

I agree and ... that is why I suspect that Jan van der Straaten is on board with the Aruban agenda.  Obviously ... he has been compensated to take the fall.  Obviously ... the consequences he will receive for obstructing the investigation has been negotiated.

Think about it Dayhiker.  Do you honestly believe that Rudy Croes would implicate Jan van der Straaten if he thought for one minute that there would be a domino effect?  Hey ... Rudy Croes himself would most likely be one of the dominos in that long line that would fall when the first domino ... the Jan van der Straaten domino is pushed.

IMO

Janet

Janet, this is the highest profile international missing person/murder case certainly in the last decade. Van der Straten has got to be in his mid-to-late 60s. Do you think he's going to throw whatever legacy of his career he has in the toilet and spend the last few years of his life in KIA for money he can't even spend?

 

Dayhiker ... it will never happened.  I contend the consequences have already been negotiated and ... jail time is not on the table.

Tamikosmom had a vision.  It is getting clearer.  Now I see it!!

From a legal perspective Jan van der Straaten pleads "not guilty" to a conflict of interest but ... will concedes that he did botched the investigation within the first ten day ... made the wrong decisions.  The judge will rule in his favor and ... he will walk.

Aruba will attempt to pacify Natalee's familly by apologizing for the incompentence of one of their own who prevented justice from prevailing and ... will assure the family that Jan van der Straaten will never again work in law enforcement again.

Jan van der Straaten with a fatten bank account fades from the Aruban scene.

Case Closed!


Dayhiker ... think about it.  Wrong decisions are made every day by LE that compromise investigations.  Heads may roll but ... there are no legal consequences.

Janet

[Anna]

Ah, yes.  And remember when Arlene tried to explain to us the intricacies of the separate government entities?  According to her, the Minister of Justice could not tell the police chief or his men what to do and despite his title as Minister of Justice, he had to request information from the Prosecutor who didn't always cooperate with him.  They were described as three separate entities that defended their independence from each other and worked as often against each other as together.  I remember I found this very odd indeed.

Right!!!

It is the most confusing system I have ever encountered.

What's more, as I understand it, The OM, Prosecutor, Hans Mos in this case, does not just represent the victim.  He instead represents JUSTICE.  The victim is supposed to be represented by the LAW and the defendant by his attorney but the prosecutor is supposed to be a NEUTRAL party.

And totally at his discretion, he can chose to prosecute, or not, based on what he believes to be in the "best interest of the public welfare" instead of the letter of the law.

At least, this is how it has been explained to me in the past several times.

So the Prosecutor does not represent the victim at all but JUSTICE and is to remain a neutral party.

How confusing is that?????

[AZLady]

I have a question for anyone......If the person in the cage was not Natalee, and her parents are satisfied with that, but yet we still see a skull, I have forgotten where the other blond girl was from.   Was she American???  Can we not pursue her death if she was???? (and Im sorry if this is a stupid question)

Always, it's not a stupid question, but what other blonde girl do you mean?  There is Jalitza, an Aruban resident, who died around the first of June 2005.  There was supposedly a blonde girl on a tape in a jewelry store, but this was not Natalee, as identified by Beth.  I'm not sure the hair color is significant.

The concern, as I see it, is that the FBI may not have been given the evidence collected from the cage, but substitute pieces of fabric that was not tied to Natalee.  Thus, the FBI reported it was not Natalee.  However, I'm not convinced Beth and Dave, or the FBI, had the evidence to draw such a conclusion.  Now, they may have more reason to believe there was a coverup that destroyed that evidence, and they may never be able to be prove who or what was in the cage.  Regardless, I have heard Beth say recently when asked, that she believes Natalee is deceased.