Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 - 12/6/08

[2NJSons_Mom]

Jan. 7th picture Kyle said: "In case it isn't clear.. notice the blue denim-like fabric”

Kermit, did the crew of Persistence NOT retrieve anything from that cage before the aruban divers came in?  If not WHY?

Kyle said: "The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat."
Kyle said: "They were immediately whisked away by the Aruban police and not seen of again by us on the 7th"

Kyle said: " John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis"
Kyle said: "John definitely believed the Arubans at their every word"
Kyle said: "John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability"
Kyle said: "John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again."

June 10, 2008 = Kyle states: “He's [John Silvetti] seriously making plans to open an Aruba office so he can conduct business easier in S. America and that would allow him to do that."

This post of Kermit doesn't give dates for the quotes attributed to Kyle, except the last one.  Reading the current comments about the dive photos, the one about Tim being a liability stuck out this morning.  Strange considering he'd been instrumental in getting the project started.  Was it because he saw something in that cage, or something other?

(of course the other quotes could be pulled apart, as well, but I just had that 'liability' on my mind)

[Blonde]

Thoughts please
Student News
Congratulations to Weihan Chan, a graduate work-study student in Sybil Seitzinger's lab, for being awarded a Phillip Alampi Scholarship.
Grant Law presented his paper, "Introducing a new spatially discrete resource limited individual-based model," at the inaugural meeting of the Northeast Evolution & Ecology Conference (NEEC) on April 12 - 13, 2003.
Undergraduate Research Fellow Kyle Kingman working with faculty advisor Peter Rona presented a poster on his senior honors thesis, "Cenozoic rates and patterns of deposition on the U.S. Atlantic continental margin in the Hudson Canyon region," at a dinner convened by Vice President for Undergraduate Education Susan Forman on April 23rd.

Congratulations
Thomas "Motz" Grothues and his wife Gabrielle had their second child, a baby girl, born Monday April 7. Nathalie Michelle was 20" and weighed 7 lb. 1 oz. Everyone is well. Older brother Christopher not too sure.



http://64.233.169.132/search?q=cache:e-oTrUmwP7oJ:marine.rutgers.edu/news/04-30-2003.html+Kyle+Kingman+has+a+new+baby+girl&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

[bleachedblack]

Sorry if this is already posted, but I find it very interesting.

++++++++++

Holloway-case messed up by nepotism


4 Dec, 2008, 10:08 (GMT -04:00)
ORANJESTAD -- Jan van der Straten has messed up the investigation in the first ten days after it got out that the American teenager Natalee Holloway had disappeared.  He helped his ‘friend’ Paul van der Sloot to protect his suspected son Joran.

Wait till retirement
“I actually wanted to wait till my retirement next year to bring this into the open”, continues the minister.  “But the time has come to tell the truth.  When the case came to light, I heard Van der Straten say literally:  ‘I can’t let this happen to my friend Paul’.  And then during the first ten days, there were heavy telephone traffic between him and Paul van der Sloot.”

According to Croes, Van der Straten has perhaps consciously deployed the so-called flexiteam after the disappearance of Natalee.  “He said in May 2005: ‘I can solve this with my flexiteam’.  As everybody knows, the flexiteam was a team that was put into action when the regular police team was over-occupied; for example during carnival.
A detective could be included in the team, but it was no police-team that was capable of doing an investigation.  Why didn’t he call in the taya-team (police officers with a lot of expertise and experience – red.)?”

There are more things that went wrong.  “Why was a beach-bum accused at that time, who has been a choller before?  He had supposedly done it, while internally it was known that he hadn’t done it.  Very special is also the fact that the Dutch language was used during Joran’s interrogation, while he is fluent in Papiamento, same as our detective.  Our people could have done their work much better if the conversations were done in their own language.  Why was he so privileged?  Simply because it were ‘Dutch-friends’; all three of them: Joran, Paul, and Jan.  Don’t forget that a Dutch minister had asked me at that time not to mention that Joran is a European Dutch citizen.  I won’t say who this person is, but if by any chance I have to mention his name, I definitely will.  We felt abandoned by the Netherlands when Aruba was so devastated by the case.   I have told this to the Dutch premier Balkenende, state secretary Bijleveld (Kingdom Relations), and minister Hirsch-Ballin (Justice).  But until now, everybody has remained quit and has let the world besmear Aruba’s name.  They abandoned us and let us suffer.”

Croes is of the opinion that the solving of the case is with the three Dutchmen Van der Straten and Paul and Joran van der Sloot.  He says that a new investigation team must come that consists of Arubans, Antilleans, and Americans.  “Why did it never occur to them to remove Jan van der Straten from his position after those ten ill-bred days?  In the case of Marlies van der Kouwe in Bonaire, police officers were taken off the case because they have failed.  I challenge Van der Straten and Paul van der Sloot to come up with clarifications, so that Aruba’s name can be cleared from this mess (porkeria).

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_50147.php

[wreck]

Like I have been saying since February that I thought Natalee was found. I also believed at the time our FBI KNEW of everything from Dec. 29th on. For me, this is where it all boils down -- WHEN did the FBI finally gain access (or at least knowledge of) to EVERYTHING in that trap! If it wasn't until March or later -- we have a serious problem.

[AZSunny]

Jan. 7th picture Kyle said: "In case it isn't clear.. notice the blue denim-like fabric”

Kermit, did the crew of Persistence NOT retrieve anything from that cage before the aruban divers came in?  If not WHY?

Kyle said: "The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat."Kyle said: "They were immediately whisked away by the Aruban police and not seen of again by us on the 7th"

Kyle said: " John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis"
Kyle said: "John definitely believed the Arubans at their every word"
Kyle said: "John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability"
Kyle said: "John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again."

June 10, 2008 = Kyle states: “He's [John Silvetti] seriously making plans to open an Aruba office so he can conduct business easier in S. America and that would allow him to do that."

This post of Kermit doesn't give dates for the quotes attributed to Kyle, except the last one.  Reading the current comments about the dive photos, the one about Tim being a liability stuck out this morning.  Strange considering he'd been instrumental in getting the project started.  Was it because he saw something in that cage, or something other?

(of course the other quotes could be pulled apart, as well, but I just had that 'liability' on my mind)

So does the highlighted comment by Kyle say that there was NEVER ANY OF THE RECOVERED EVIDENCE ON THE PERSISTENCE??  If that is the case, where did all of the observations by kyle regarding the fabric come from, just the pictures?? 

[truthseeker2]

I don't know, billb.  The date and time stamps on those monitors are from the ROV, not from Datelines cameras.  That I know.  Are you suggesting that the Persistence was able to control precisely a delayed playback that eliminated that one moment when human remians may have been captured by the ROV?  Why would they do that? And then come back to the ship saying "Nothing"?

Klaas, do you know if their is a link to the Dateline program that shows this sequence?

Good question TS2.
I haven't seen the dateline video.....are they all just screen shots, or a running video projected on the on board monitors?

TS2...
OK, I see we both just watch the dateline video that Klaas so kindly presented....
Based on the video, i stand by my comments......
Dateline got screen shots only and the pics of possible remains were from the ROV cameras directly....
To me, it explains the circumstances and I don't see anything odd about the pics from 15:40 (ROV SHOT) to 15:43 (screen capture)...
I hope that clears up your concerns.

No, actually it solidifies my concerns.  The issue of when or what Dateline showed on their broadcast is meaningless except that we know they were on the boat and looking at the monitors.  That did provide us with a timeline for the dive.  What is at issue, for me, is the 15:40 shot is the one many us of us have believed shows human remains.  The shot taken 60 seconds after a thumbs down on the contents of the trap.  Whether Dateline showed it on TV is of no relevance.  What is important is people on the Persistence HAD to see it.  Tim Miller HAD to see it.  They were still looking at the monitors 3 minutes later.  So...why the thumbs down?  Are we really seeing human remains?  Much like 'zoo keeper' is not the same as 'zoo geeper'???

If what we are seeing is a shot of human remains...any NOBODY acknowledged it at that time...well, you can do the math on that one.

If what we are seeing is not a shot of human remains...but now someone is looking back and trying to make sense out of what they are seeing...well, I can understand the desire to find Natalee could encourage someone to take a closer look.  But is that conclusive?

Also, back to the 'sale' of the images to networks...has anyone asked Dateline to go back and look at their raw footage from that show to see if that shot ever appeared on the monitors that day?

[Tamikosmom]

Good Morning Monkeys

Did Kermit ever reveal who the "experts" are?

Janet
______

Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #781 12/3/08 -
« Reply #664 on: December 04, 2008, 09:57:40 PM »

According to the experts, YES she was in the cage.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4186.msg566860#msg566860

[2NJSons_Mom]

Thoughts please
Student News
Congratulations to Weihan Chan, a graduate work-study student in Sybil Seitzinger's lab, for being awarded a Phillip Alampi Scholarship.
Grant Law presented his paper, "Introducing a new spatially discrete resource limited individual-based model," at the inaugural meeting of the Northeast Evolution & Ecology Conference (NEEC) on April 12 - 13, 2003.
Undergraduate Research Fellow Kyle Kingman working with faculty advisor Peter Rona presented a poster on his senior honors thesis, "Cenozoic rates and patterns of deposition on the U.S. Atlantic continental margin in the Hudson Canyon region," at a dinner convened by Vice President for Undergraduate Education Susan Forman on April 23rd.

Congratulations
Thomas "Motz" Grothues and his wife Gabrielle had their second child, a baby girl, born Monday April 7. Nathalie Michelle was 20" and weighed 7 lb. 1 oz. Everyone is well. Older brother Christopher not too sure.



http://64.233.169.132/search?q=cache:e-oTrUmwP7oJ:marine.rutgers.edu/news/04-30-2003.html+Kyle+Kingman+has+a+new+baby+girl&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

This article you found is from 2003...how about this one, which was prior to Kyle annoucing the birth of his daughter:

http://liquidchurch.typepad.com/big_hair_preacher/2008/01/baby-boom-at-li.html
(snipped)
Here are some expecting couples I'm praying for:

- Tim & Alex Purnell (Tim's one of the drummers in our Worship Band)
- Gerry & Sandi Piazza (Gerry runs Security & Sandi is part of our staff)
- Steve & Susan Yarad (Our Aussie friends... www.steveandsusan.blogspot.com)
- Jake & Emily Schlenker (fellow Devils fans!)
- John & Jess Maravich (Life Group leaders)
- Kyle & Gail Kingman (Kyle's an oceanographer and this is baby #2 for them)
- Pete & Rebekah Goode (NC Liquidites)
- Elise & Peter Klimchuk  (prayers for Elise on bed rest)
- Brian & Karin Capra (in the Gregory's Life Group)

Brace yourselves, Lil' Liquid nursery workers!  I'm sure there are more (these are literally just the few that came to mind as a I write).  Please join me in praying for each family-- for health, safety, & peace of mind as they prepare to have their worlds rocked.

[SS]

Like I have been saying since February that I thought Natalee was found. I also believed at the time our FBI KNEW of everything from Dec. 29th on. For me, this is where it all boils down -- WHEN did the FBI finally gain access (or at least knowledge of) to EVERYTHING in that trap! If it wasn't until March or later -- we have a serious problem.

Kermit can probably answer that, because I understood that Kermit was the one who turned Kyle's photographs over to Beth and the FBI.  I think the FBI did have the photographs of the trap from a distance, that were taken on 12/29, because these were the ones that were released to Dave and Robin.  It is my understanding that Kyle did not give the 12/30 detailed photographs to the FBI.

[2NJSons_Mom]

Jan. 7th picture Kyle said: "In case it isn't clear.. notice the blue denim-like fabric”

Kermit, did the crew of Persistence NOT retrieve anything from that cage before the aruban divers came in?  If not WHY?

Kyle said: "The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat."Kyle said: "They were immediately whisked away by the Aruban police and not seen of again by us on the 7th"

Kyle said: " John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis"
Kyle said: "John definitely believed the Arubans at their every word"
Kyle said: "John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability"
Kyle said: "John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again."

June 10, 2008 = Kyle states: “He's [John Silvetti] seriously making plans to open an Aruba office so he can conduct business easier in S. America and that would allow him to do that."

This post of Kermit doesn't give dates for the quotes attributed to Kyle, except the last one.  Reading the current comments about the dive photos, the one about Tim being a liability stuck out this morning.  Strange considering he'd been instrumental in getting the project started.  Was it because he saw something in that cage, or something other?

(of course the other quotes could be pulled apart, as well, but I just had that 'liability' on my mind)

So does the highlighted comment by Kyle say that there was NEVER ANY OF THE RECOVERED EVIDENCE ON THE PERSISTENCE??  If that is the case, where did all of the observations by kyle regarding the fabric come from, just the pictures?? 

Guess that's exactly why Tim's liability was on my mind.  All of these quotes can be    I can't answer your question, AZSunny. 

[SS]

Jan. 7th picture Kyle said: "In case it isn't clear.. notice the blue denim-like fabric”

Kermit, did the crew of Persistence NOT retrieve anything from that cage before the aruban divers came in?  If not WHY?

Kyle said: "The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat."Kyle said: "They were immediately whisked away by the Aruban police and not seen of again by us on the 7th"

Kyle said: " John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis"
Kyle said: "John definitely believed the Arubans at their every word"
Kyle said: "John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability"
Kyle said: "John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again."

June 10, 2008 = Kyle states: “He's [John Silvetti] seriously making plans to open an Aruba office so he can conduct business easier in S. America and that would allow him to do that."

This post of Kermit doesn't give dates for the quotes attributed to Kyle, except the last one.  Reading the current comments about the dive photos, the one about Tim being a liability stuck out this morning.  Strange considering he'd been instrumental in getting the project started.  Was it because he saw something in that cage, or something other?

(of course the other quotes could be pulled apart, as well, but I just had that 'liability' on my mind)

So does the highlighted comment by Kyle say that there was NEVER ANY OF THE RECOVERED EVIDENCE ON THE PERSISTENCE??  If that is the case, where did all of the observations by kyle regarding the fabric come from, just the pictures?? 

AZSunny - this is exactly what I was saying one page back.  I don't see who he could have identified a denim skirt and the stain without seeing the skirt.  It had been buried under sand and then bunched up in a bag.

[SS]

Good Morning Monkeys

Did Kermit ever reveal who the "experts" are?

Janet
______

Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #781 12/3/08 -
« Reply #664 on: December 04, 2008, 09:57:40 PM »

According to the experts, YES she was in the cage.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4186.msg566860#msg566860

Janet, I think Kermit was referring to Kyle, himself, as at least one expert.


From Kermit

Kyle said: “The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

Kyle said: "
Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.

- I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs.
- I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location.
- Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle said: “- I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head,

to shoulder, to skirt line. Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed.

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items

The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.”

[Blue Moon]

Thanks Klaas - you are good!!

*************

Kyle said: “The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

******************

In my opinion, it would be unlikely that Kyle could determine this from just a photograph.  If the skirt had been under sand, as he had described, how would he know that the stain was located at the bottom of the skirt?  This wouldn't have been evident once it was bunched up in the evidence bag, either.  I think he did sample the items from the cage.  ALE might have them now, but I feel pretty confident that the Persistence crew examined the objects from the cage.  I am also highly doubtful that three Aruban divers appeared alone in a dive boat to remove the possible evidence of a high profile International murder case.  The Persistence was probably crawling with ALE while that evidence was collected on January 7th, if for no other reason than to make sure nothing disappeared.  I wouldn't be surprised if Mos, himself, was onboard, and no doubt Richardson was there because he's in charge of the case.  I do think that we've been duped once more.

So where does that leave us?   

Remember the interview on Greta with John Q. Kelly when the statement of the FBI was released on the fabric testing?  John Q. was very disheartened and he said at that time that Natalee's remains were NO longer recoverable.  Guess he knew then that everything went to the ALE and it would never be seen again.

[Tamikosmom]

The following is the third updated compilation of quotes derived from emails communication between Kermit and Kyle.

Janet
________


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 -
« Reply #532 on: November 25, 2008, 07:06:45 PM »

From Kyle: march 18, 2008: If you want, you can get Red from SM off my back. I really don't like that guy. He thinks he knows what's going on but doesn't have a clue. I first saw the pics on the SM home page and fired off an email to Red believing that he would be understanding and help provide answers. I quickly found out what happened on my own and dealt with it. I could not believe his response.

~Kyle

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557660#msg557660


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 -
« Reply #532 on: November 25, 2008, 07:06:45 PM »

From Kyle: I have not given anything to the FBI since the pictures and statements from Dec 29th

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557660#msg557660


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 -
« Reply #532 on: November 25, 2008, 07:06:45 PM »

From Kyle: None of us gave any statements to the authorities after the 29th. It's possible John Silvetti did, because he was the only one conversing with them after Jan 7th.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557660#msg557660


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 -
« Reply #532 on: November 25, 2008, 07:06:45 PM »

From Kyle: May 8, 2008: "I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557660#msg557660


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #888 on: Today at 02:43:35 AM »

Jan. 7th picture Kyle said: "In case it isn't clear.. notice the blue denim-like fabric”

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564718#msg564718


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #902 on: Today at 03:09:00 AM »

Kyle said: "The Aruban divers were on the police boat, dove from their boat, and returned to their boat."

Kyle said: "They were immediately whisked away by the Aruban police and not seen of again by us on the 7th"

Kyle said: " John stood back and waited and worked with the Aruban Polis"

Kyle said: "John definitely believed the Arubans at their every word"

Kyle said: "John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability"

Kyle said: "John told me then he didn't want to hear me ever mention the trap again."

June 10, 2008 = Kyle states: “He's [John Silvetti] seriously making plans to open an Aruba office so he can conduct business easier in S. America and that would allow him to do that."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564763#msg564763


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #903 on: Today at 03:12:23 AM »

Kyle said: "Schafer is sue crazy."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564766;topicseen#msg564766


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #897 on: Today at 03:02:28 AM »

Kyle: “I did not feel the same and we had a major difference in opinion. He [John Silvetti] was the one who never pressed ALE to be completely open with us with the trap evidence. I would have forced them to. However, John was the one paying my invoices so I was forced to sit back and hope for the best.”

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564753;topicseen#msg564753


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #883 on: Today at 02:39:52 AM »

Kyle said: " We all know it wasn't a blouse, but I believe they were sent some piece of fabric other than the fabric found inside the trap.”

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564707#msg564707


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #896 on: Today at 03:00:21 AM »

Kyle said: "The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.”

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564748;topicseen#msg564748


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #896 on: Today at 03:00:21 AM »

Kyle said: "We're being fed misinformation to keep us searching and out of their way while they cover their asses, destroy evidence, cover their tracks, and keep us out at sea and away from the trap."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564748;topicseen#msg564748


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #888 on: Today at 02:43:35 AM »

Jan. 7th picture Kyle said: "In case it isn't clear.. notice the blue denim-like fabric”

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564718#msg564718


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 -
« Reply #532 on: Today at 07:06:45 PM »

From Kyle: May 8, 2008: "I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557660#msg557660


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #882 on: Today at 02:36:28 AM »

Kyle said: "Louis is currently working with someone who I do not know to put together some documentary on the case, the way it was handled, and what happened during the search. I learned this from Tim T. yesterday. Louis was sold on the idea that it will make him a lot of money.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564701;topicseen#msg564701


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #802 on: December 02, 2008, 05:16:26 PM »

Kyle said: “The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564125;topicseen#msg564125


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 -
« Reply #642 on: November 25, 2008, 10:12:27 PM »

May 8, 2008 = from Kyle: John Silvetti told me today that he may be returning to Aruba very soon for a few days.

May 19, 2008 = from Kyle:
"I couldn't get the logs from the Persistence. All things "Holloway" were stripped from the boat once it got back to Louisiana

JUNE 10, 2008 = from Kyle:
He's [John Silvetti] seriously making plans to open an Aruba office so he can conduct business easier in S. America and that would allow him to do that.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557914;topicseen#msg557914


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #779 11/24/08 -
« Reply #635 on: November 25, 2008, 10:06:58 PM »

from Kyle: "It was confirmed by the FBI that they received a fabric sample send by Richardson and that it wasn't a match to Natalee's blouse. I think the video can prove or disprove whatever the FBI was sent was the same object or not. I strongly believe it's blue denim. Everyone I show thinks the same thing without being prompted (including senior ABC execs).

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4179.msg557906;topicseen#msg557906


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #781 12/3/08 -
« Reply #663 on: Today at 09:55:44 PM »

Kyle stated: "John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4186.msg566856;topicseen#msg566856


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #137 on: Today at 04:07:13 PM »

Klye stated: " We're being fed misinformation to keep us searching and out of their way while they cover their asses, destroy evidence, cover their tracks, and keep us out at sea and away from the trap."

Kyle stated: "neither Dave, Robin, or Beth has seen any of the ROV footage aside from what was broadcasted on Dateline or the pictures leaked from the FBI to Dave (and Robin H.). Beth has seen nothing in my knowledge."

Kyle stated: "John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.120


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #275 on: December 05, 2008, 07:05:44 PM »

Kyle said: "Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.
- I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs.
- I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location.
- Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle said: “- I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line.

Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed.

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items

The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.”

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg568246;topicseen#msg568246


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #524 on: December 05, 2008, 11:59:23 PM

kyle stated: "Richardson was onboard the Persistence several times and attended the meetings on the boat. You may see a glimpse of him on the Dateline video in the survey room along with Mos standing over my shoulder.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg568677;topicseen#msg568677

[truthseeker2]

Well, I'm a part-time monkey poster (I lurk more often than I post) and this time sequence seems more questionable than many things that have garnered pages of monkey posts.

How was that time sequence possible?  When you compare the quality of the 15:40 pic with the others it seems as though the others were from a video image and the 15:40 was from a camera.  Who would have been using a camera down there at that time?  Or, were there two ROV's?

I think there was only one ROV onboard, so what you are saying would probably indicate a fourth diver or photographer.  I am not knowledgeable about cameras.  What is really important are the timestamps on those photographs because it places everyone both on the ship and in the ocean at strategic places.

So do we really know how many ROV's were operating during that dive?

[2NJSons_Mom]

Thanks Klaas - you are good!!

*************

Kyle said: “The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

******************

In my opinion, it would be unlikely that Kyle could determine this from just a photograph.  If the skirt had been under sand, as he had described, how would he know that the stain was located at the bottom of the skirt?  This wouldn't have been evident once it was bunched up in the evidence bag, either.  I think he did sample the items from the cage.  ALE might have them now, but I feel pretty confident that the Persistence crew examined the objects from the cage.  I am also highly doubtful that three Aruban divers appeared alone in a dive boat to remove the possible evidence of a high profile International murder case.  The Persistence was probably crawling with ALE while that evidence was collected on January 7th, if for no other reason than to make sure nothing disappeared.  I wouldn't be surprised if Mos, himself, was onboard, and no doubt Richardson was there because he's in charge of the case.  I do think that we've been duped once more.

So where does that leave us?   

Remember the interview on Greta with John Q. Kelly when the statement of the FBI was released on the fabric testing?  John Q. was very disheartened and he said at that time that Natalee's remains were NO longer recoverable.  Guess he knew then that everything went to the ALE and it would never be seen again.

Good point...I had forgotten about that JQK comment.  It's maddening.   

Also, BlueMoonofKY....Leona Helmsley (sp?) left her $ to her cat.   

[Blue Moon]

Thanks Klaas - you are good!!

*************

Kyle said: “The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

******************

In my opinion, it would be unlikely that Kyle could determine this from just a photograph.  If the skirt had been under sand, as he had described, how would he know that the stain was located at the bottom of the skirt?  This wouldn't have been evident once it was bunched up in the evidence bag, either.  I think he did sample the items from the cage.  ALE might have them now, but I feel pretty confident that the Persistence crew examined the objects from the cage.  I am also highly doubtful that three Aruban divers appeared alone in a dive boat to remove the possible evidence of a high profile International murder case.  The Persistence was probably crawling with ALE while that evidence was collected on January 7th, if for no other reason than to make sure nothing disappeared.  I wouldn't be surprised if Mos, himself, was onboard, and no doubt Richardson was there because he's in charge of the case.  I do think that we've been duped once more.

So where does that leave us?   

Remember the interview on Greta with John Q. Kelly when the statement of the FBI was released on the fabric testing?  John Q. was very disheartened and he said at that time that Natalee's remains were NO longer recoverable.  Guess he knew then that everything went to the ALE and it would never be seen again.

Good point...I had forgotten about that JQK comment.  It's maddening.   

Also, BlueMoonofKY....Leona Helmsley (sp?) left her $ to her cat.   

Didn't forget about that did you?

[SS]

Thanks Klaas - you are good!!

*************

Kyle said: “The portion of the discolored blue fabric was presumably on the bottom of the fabric. In my opinion this discoloration is not another type of fabric, but rather biological staining or discoloration from biological growth caused from a high organic carbon content and decay. Basically, during decay a biological mat will form around the organics from remains. This is what I believe it is on the bottom of the fabric.

******************

In my opinion, it would be unlikely that Kyle could determine this from just a photograph.  If the skirt had been under sand, as he had described, how would he know that the stain was located at the bottom of the skirt?  This wouldn't have been evident once it was bunched up in the evidence bag, either.  I think he did sample the items from the cage.  ALE might have them now, but I feel pretty confident that the Persistence crew examined the objects from the cage.  I am also highly doubtful that three Aruban divers appeared alone in a dive boat to remove the possible evidence of a high profile International murder case.  The Persistence was probably crawling with ALE while that evidence was collected on January 7th, if for no other reason than to make sure nothing disappeared.  I wouldn't be surprised if Mos, himself, was onboard, and no doubt Richardson was there because he's in charge of the case.  I do think that we've been duped once more.

So where does that leave us?   

Remember the interview on Greta with John Q. Kelly when the statement of the FBI was released on the fabric testing?  John Q. was very disheartened and he said at that time that Natalee's remains were NO longer recoverable.  Guess he knew then that everything went to the ALE and it would never be seen again.

Blue Moon - great reference!  I have pretty much been a believer that Natalee was buried on land, but after Kyle's calculations, I don't think so anymore.  Kyle is a trained oceanographer and he has been taught how to make those calculations of objects on the ocean floor.  Kyle's calculations are actually the first piece of scientific data that we have after three and a half years.  I wonder if it would be too much of a stretch to hope that the release of the cage photographs somehow has forced Rudy's hand???  They can't deny any longer that something was in the cage.  There are photographs to prove the lie.  Whether or not they have destroyed the actual cage contents remains to be seen.  If the evidence has been destroyed, Richardson and Mos could also be in trouble along with Paulass and Uncle Jan.

[Keepthefaith]

Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #524 on: December 05, 2008, 11:59:23 PM

kyle stated: "Richardson was onboard the Persistence several times and attended the meetings on the boat. You may see a glimpse of him on the Dateline video in the survey room along with Mos standing over my shoulder.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg568677;topicseen#msg568677

"The effort was superb,but the game was fixed"

After all this time.Why the F@#K would you allow these SINISTER people in on your meetings?????????????

[johan555]

"Natalee is below the sands of Aruba '

ENSCHEDE / ARUBA - Normally he drives from ghosts in cer-Dutch houses, but in recent months have psychic Muijtstege Bert and his' medium-girlfriend 'seized by a relentless search for Natalee Holloway.
 
The beach in Aruba.

,, I see the shape of her body under the sand of the beach in Aruba.''

Since last Friday digs the girlfriend of the Enschede (Meium)psychic with a small team on the tropical beach. With borrowed shovels, they come to one meter depth on the spot Muijtstege appointed. ,, I saw the print of her body in a photo with palm trees near a hotel in Aruba.''

Muijtstege examine their own words' from early morning until late into the night 'the material that he has a photographer from Curacao to shoot on the island. Then after "thorough analysis certainty" about the place where Natalee he is, he hesitated a moment and organized an expedition. With his own money. 'My girlfriend has three locations examined. By 'commuting' with the help of a mountain chain with crystal on the beach, it provides the place and they go digging.''

Despite the optimism of Muijtstege is Natalee after a week of digging still not above water. , "We are not deep enough. By police and obstruction of justice in Aruba. We were not even marketing ribbons.''

You would be despondent. ,, We have a lot of costs, I estimate around 60,000 euros. My friend is dead unfortunate, but they must return to the Netherlands.''That does not mean the end of his emotional quest. ,, It is a temporary interruption. In the spring we go back and then we find her.''Justice in Aruba does not respond.