Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 - 12/6/08

[Keepthefaith]

I was watchin' modern marvels on the history channel the other night.. and they had a segment about cremation. I turned it on after the beginning and missed the company they were talking about, but let's face - there are only so many of these companies. Could have been Mathews International for all I know.

Anyway, they have a cremation blast furnace that completely vaporizes a body in only 60 minutes.  That was totally new to me and I thought that the time needed was 3 hours. Not so according to modern marvels.

On another note, who likes to see Paulus' tit in a ringer? Don't all jump at once.  His ass is about to go from the frying pan to the fire. TJ has some info that will be on Girdle's show possible as early as next week. She has the info and is reviewing it. I have not seen it, just know about it and it should be good. TJ and Harold Copus should be on next week sometime. As soon as I find out when and if it's a definite, I'll let everyone know.

Thanx for the posts,as well as your selflessness!We Monkey's do appreciate it..

[Magnolia]

And another thing, there must have been an agreement with Aruba to have that GIS mapping done. Before anyone got in the boat. Another country could not come into Canadian coastal waters and do that ( map the ocean floor ) without the express permission of the Canadian government. Unless it was a Canadian company that
sub contracted the job. And they would still need permission to do the mapping.   

I have a very strong suspicion that there is a very wealthy Aruban partner.  According to Caps, an American can't own a business in Aruba without a partner and as of May, Mr. Silvetti was planning to open an office in Aruba.

I do not think they let Jossy in on the fact of finding the remains.
But then again....his son was one of the divers.  However,
he was not suited up on the Dateline photos when they  show
Tim Traham all suited up to dive.  I am disagreeing with myself.

I think he knows everything, Mags.  Eduardo is the founder of Aruba Search and Rescue.  Even if he wasn't suited up in those pictures, Kermit says he was one of the divers.  Jossy is also good buds with Silvetti.  They are doing all of those witness polygraphs and stuff together.  My question is why is Silvetti so invested in the current witnesses after he handed the cage contents off to ALE?  Silvetti was even part of that meeting in September with Caps, Jossy, the witness, and as one monkey seems to have learned - de Vries.  Unfortunately, Mos wouldn't meet with them, they all went home, and Jossy published his first two Diario articles.  Jossy and Silvetti know each other very well.

I think if we knew the answer to your question, we might have the answer to
a lot of other questions.  I just hate to think that Jossy is involved in deceiving
Natalee's family.  I hate to think it of CAPS too.

[Blue Moon]

Here is another post of OE and my reply to it:

493       Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -       on: March 18, 2008, 12:42:38 PM
Quote from: oceanexploration on March 18, 2008, 12:22:38 PM
On the issue of Trap recovery:

-After the visual inspection on 30-Dec, the initial plan discussed by the project leads and Aruban police was for us (the team on board the Persistence) to be directly involved in the recovery of the trap.  There were talks about getting the proper equipment on board the Persistence such as a suction-recovery system to sift small items from the sand.  The talks continued after Jan-7th when the samples were collected.

-Just after the 30th of Dec we were told it would take about 10-14 days to bring in a Dutch team capable of processing an underwater site.

-Jan 9th through 13th I was off the boat and staying at the Holiday Inn for a much-needed break.  I walked up and down the beach many times a day.  On the 11th and 12th, I noticed the Dutch coast guard vessel at or VERY near the trap site.  I talked to a wind surfer instructor who claims to be at the beach every day for 8 years.  He said the boat always comes up the shore just south of where we were standing, turns away and heads offshore.  He said it never goes where it was and has never seen it stop.
The vessel was on that spot for 42 minutes that day and about the same duration the next day.  I triangulated it's position the best I could using a wrist watch and a few points on land.  It was right on the target location based on the measurements.

-When I returned to the Persistence (14-Jan) there were no more talks about a trap recovery.  When I pressed the issue, I was told "they're no longer interested in the trap or it's recovery".

-I raised the issue again in early February and the response was the same - no interest about the trap and no plans to recover.

I assume one of three scenarios: 1) They genuinely aren't interested in the trap, 2) They are/were interested and will take care of it themselves (or have already done so) and don't want us informed or involved, or 3) They already recovered the trap (or processed the site) and don't want us to know for whatever reason, good or otherwise.

This sums up why WE as monkeys have been very concerned about a recovery operation that did not include the U.S. FBI etc.  No more than we expected and have come to expect from Aruba.  Did you ever go back to the site to see if it was untouched?  Thanks.

[SS]

Here is another post of OE and my reply to it:

493       Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -       on: March 18, 2008, 12:42:38 PM
Quote from: oceanexploration on March 18, 2008, 12:22:38 PM
On the issue of Trap recovery:

-After the visual inspection on 30-Dec, the initial plan discussed by the project leads and Aruban police was for us (the team on board the Persistence) to be directly involved in the recovery of the trap.  There were talks about getting the proper equipment on board the Persistence such as a suction-recovery system to sift small items from the sand.  The talks continued after Jan-7th when the samples were collected.

-Just after the 30th of Dec we were told it would take about 10-14 days to bring in a Dutch team capable of processing an underwater site.

-Jan 9th through 13th I was off the boat and staying at the Holiday Inn for a much-needed break.  I walked up and down the beach many times a day.  On the 11th and 12th, I noticed the Dutch coast guard vessel at or VERY near the trap site.  I talked to a wind surfer instructor who claims to be at the beach every day for 8 years.  He said the boat always comes up the shore just south of where we were standing, turns away and heads offshore.  He said it never goes where it was and has never seen it stop.
The vessel was on that spot for 42 minutes that day and about the same duration the next day.  I triangulated it's position the best I could using a wrist watch and a few points on land.  It was right on the target location based on the measurements.

-When I returned to the Persistence (14-Jan) there were no more talks about a trap recovery.  When I pressed the issue, I was told "they're no longer interested in the trap or it's recovery".
-I raised the issue again in early February and the response was the same - no interest about the trap and no plans to recover.
I assume one of three scenarios: 1) They genuinely aren't interested in the trap, 2) They are/were interested and will take care of it themselves (or have already done so) and don't want us informed or involved, or 3) They already recovered the trap (or processed the site) and don't want us to know for whatever reason, good or otherwise.
This sums up why WE as monkeys have been very concerned about a recovery operation that did not include the U.S. FBI etc.  No more than we expected and have come to expect from Aruba.  Did you ever go back to the site to see if it was untouched?  Thanks.

Blue Moon - I'm so glad that you posted this.  Knowing what we know now, this is such a crock.  How can he be posting this nonsense when he knows exactly what happened with the trap.  He gave the contents to ALE after "supervising the sampling from the trap".  According to Caps, the trap itself is still there eleven months later.  Why pull it up now - it's empty.

[texasmom]

Where did Kermit say that Eduardo Mansur was one of the divers?  I would like to read that again if anyone has a link.  TIA

[Blonde]

Thoughts please
Student News
Congratulations to Weihan Chan, a graduate work-study student in Sybil Seitzinger's lab, for being awarded a Phillip Alampi Scholarship.
Grant Law presented his paper, "Introducing a new spatially discrete resource limited individual-based model," at the inaugural meeting of the Northeast Evolution & Ecology Conference (NEEC) on April 12 - 13, 2003.
Undergraduate Research Fellow Kyle Kingman working with faculty advisor Peter Rona presented a poster on his senior honors thesis, "Cenozoic rates and patterns of deposition on the U.S. Atlantic continental margin in the Hudson Canyon region," at a dinner convened by Vice President for Undergraduate Education Susan Forman on April 23rd.

Congratulations
Thomas "Motz" Grothues and his wife Gabrielle had their second child, a baby girl, born Monday April 7. Nathalie Michelle was 20" and weighed 7 lb. 1 oz. Everyone is well. Older brother Christopher not too sure.



http://64.233.169.132/search?q=cache:e-oTrUmwP7oJ:marine.rutgers.edu/news/04-30-2003.html+Kyle+Kingman+has+a+new+baby+girl&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

This article you found is from 2003...how about this one, which was prior to Kyle annoucing the birth of his daughter:

http://liquidchurch.typepad.com/big_hair_preacher/2008/01/baby-boom-at-li.html
(snipped)
Here are some expecting couples I'm praying for:

- Tim & Alex Purnell (Tim's one of the drummers in our Worship Band)
- Gerry & Sandi Piazza (Gerry runs Security & Sandi is part of our staff)
- Steve & Susan Yarad (Our Aussie friends... www.steveandsusan.blogspot.com)
- Jake & Emily Schlenker (fellow Devils fans!)
- John & Jess Maravich (Life Group leaders)
- Kyle & Gail Kingman (Kyle's an oceanographer and this is baby #2 for them)
- Pete & Rebekah Goode (NC Liquidites)
- Elise & Peter Klimchuk  (prayers for Elise on bed rest)
- Brian & Karin Capra (in the Gregory's Life Group)

Brace yourselves, Lil' Liquid nursery workers!  I'm sure there are more (these are literally just the few that came to mind as a I write).  Please join me in praying for each family-- for health, safety, & peace of mind as they prepare to have their worlds rocked.

What I was looking for, is to see if he really named his new little girl Natalee or was that a lie too.

[Blue Moon]

Here is another post of OE and my reply to it:

493       Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -       on: March 18, 2008, 12:42:38 PM
Quote from: oceanexploration on March 18, 2008, 12:22:38 PM
On the issue of Trap recovery:

-After the visual inspection on 30-Dec, the initial plan discussed by the project leads and Aruban police was for us (the team on board the Persistence) to be directly involved in the recovery of the trap.  There were talks about getting the proper equipment on board the Persistence such as a suction-recovery system to sift small items from the sand.  The talks continued after Jan-7th when the samples were collected.

-Just after the 30th of Dec we were told it would take about 10-14 days to bring in a Dutch team capable of processing an underwater site.

-Jan 9th through 13th I was off the boat and staying at the Holiday Inn for a much-needed break.  I walked up and down the beach many times a day.  On the 11th and 12th, I noticed the Dutch coast guard vessel at or VERY near the trap site.  I talked to a wind surfer instructor who claims to be at the beach every day for 8 years.  He said the boat always comes up the shore just south of where we were standing, turns away and heads offshore.  He said it never goes where it was and has never seen it stop.
The vessel was on that spot for 42 minutes that day and about the same duration the next day.  I triangulated it's position the best I could using a wrist watch and a few points on land.  It was right on the target location based on the measurements.

-When I returned to the Persistence (14-Jan) there were no more talks about a trap recovery.  When I pressed the issue, I was told "they're no longer interested in the trap or it's recovery".
-I raised the issue again in early February and the response was the same - no interest about the trap and no plans to recover.
I assume one of three scenarios: 1) They genuinely aren't interested in the trap, 2) They are/were interested and will take care of it themselves (or have already done so) and don't want us informed or involved, or 3) They already recovered the trap (or processed the site) and don't want us to know for whatever reason, good or otherwise.
This sums up why WE as monkeys have been very concerned about a recovery operation that did not include the U.S. FBI etc.  No more than we expected and have come to expect from Aruba.  Did you ever go back to the site to see if it was untouched?  Thanks.

Blue Moon - I'm so glad that you posted this.  Knowing what we know now, this is such a crock.  How can he be posting this nonsense when he knows exactly what happened with the trap.  He gave the contents to ALE after "supervising the sampling from the trap".  According to Caps, the trap itself is still there eleven months later.  Why pull it up now - it's empty.

So samples only were collected on the 7th of Jan., the Dutch ship retrieved the contents of the cage on the 11th and 12th (spending 42 minutes each day).  Was the 11th and 12th retrieval filmed by anyone on the Persistence?  Just the collection of samples were filmed on the 7th?  This sucks.

[SS]

Where did Kermit say that Eduardo Mansur was one of the divers?  I would like to read that again if anyone has a link.  TIA

TM - if I recall it went like this.....
Kyle wouldn't identify the diver as Eduardo
We compared pictures of Eduardo onboard with the life vest and from the family wedding
I finally asked Kermit if it was Eduardo
I can't remember where it is right now
The same thing happened with identifying John Silvetti
Kyle said he came onboard with the Arubans
We continued to compared photographs
I asked Kermit and Kermit said Yes

[SS]

Here is another post of OE and my reply to it:

493       Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #743 3/14 -       on: March 18, 2008, 12:42:38 PM
Quote from: oceanexploration on March 18, 2008, 12:22:38 PM
On the issue of Trap recovery:

-After the visual inspection on 30-Dec, the initial plan discussed by the project leads and Aruban police was for us (the team on board the Persistence) to be directly involved in the recovery of the trap.  There were talks about getting the proper equipment on board the Persistence such as a suction-recovery system to sift small items from the sand.  The talks continued after Jan-7th when the samples were collected.

-Just after the 30th of Dec we were told it would take about 10-14 days to bring in a Dutch team capable of processing an underwater site.

-Jan 9th through 13th I was off the boat and staying at the Holiday Inn for a much-needed break.  I walked up and down the beach many times a day.  On the 11th and 12th, I noticed the Dutch coast guard vessel at or VERY near the trap site.  I talked to a wind surfer instructor who claims to be at the beach every day for 8 years.  He said the boat always comes up the shore just south of where we were standing, turns away and heads offshore.  He said it never goes where it was and has never seen it stop.
The vessel was on that spot for 42 minutes that day and about the same duration the next day.  I triangulated it's position the best I could using a wrist watch and a few points on land.  It was right on the target location based on the measurements.

-When I returned to the Persistence (14-Jan) there were no more talks about a trap recovery.  When I pressed the issue, I was told "they're no longer interested in the trap or it's recovery".
-I raised the issue again in early February and the response was the same - no interest about the trap and no plans to recover.
I assume one of three scenarios: 1) They genuinely aren't interested in the trap, 2) They are/were interested and will take care of it themselves (or have already done so) and don't want us informed or involved, or 3) They already recovered the trap (or processed the site) and don't want us to know for whatever reason, good or otherwise.
This sums up why WE as monkeys have been very concerned about a recovery operation that did not include the U.S. FBI etc.  No more than we expected and have come to expect from Aruba.  Did you ever go back to the site to see if it was untouched?  Thanks.

Blue Moon - I'm so glad that you posted this.  Knowing what we know now, this is such a crock.  How can he be posting this nonsense when he knows exactly what happened with the trap.  He gave the contents to ALE after "supervising the sampling from the trap".  According to Caps, the trap itself is still there eleven months later.  Why pull it up now - it's empty.

So samples only were collected on the 7th of Jan., the Dutch ship retrieved the contents of the cage on the 11th and 12th (spending 42 minutes each day).  Was the 11th and 12th retrieval filmed by anyone on the Persistence?  Just the collection of samples were filmed on the 7th?  This sucks.

The Dutch didn't retrieve anything on the 11th and 12th.  We don't know why they were there.  The cage was cleaned on January 7th.  Everything was put in those bags.

[texasmom]

I've been questioning to myself why the same Dutch team that searched the Vandersloot property in 2007 wouldn't have been involved in the collection of evidence from Persistence?  Why ALE at that time, when from my understanding Aruba had requested the assistance from the Dutch in September 2006?  Maybe the ship on the 11th & 12th was part of the Dutch team, but why weren't they involved on the 7th?  I think I may already know the answer to that one? But I don't like that answer.   

 

[texasmom]

I remember equipment that could vacuum the ocean floor around the cage was discussed at one point; I thought that was what the delay was in recovering the evidence in the cage.  Perhaps that is what was going on during the 11th and 12th, maybe the Dutch ship had that equipment? 

[ospainter]

Hi Everyone,

Does anyone believe that Natalee was placed in a cage different than the one that was

described by the fisherman as missing in June 05 and in this different cage it is possible

that her remains stayed in the exact same place for 3 yrs, so much so that a pic of her

standing on the beach could be placed over cage remains and be exact fit?

Does anyone believe that divers/law enforcement would take ordinary

unmarked/unlabeled ziplock bags into the cage, gather evidence, move away from

evidence long enough for pic to be taken? And I notice in gathering evidence the

pics are crystal clear, amazing to me no sediment was disturbed, NONE..

Does anyone believe that OE/Kyle tried to sell the "legitimate" pics to news organizations and not one was interested in doing a story on "how the remains of Natalee

were found and Aruba is concealing it?"

If you do believe any of this, please help me understand how this happened, I am not getting it.

Maybe I just don't understand what all this is about, looks to me like "someone" was trying to scam for money, who? Could be several but Natalee's family is not part of

it that much I am certain of.

Thank you,

OS

[SS]

I've been questioning to myself why the same Dutch team that searched the Vandersloot property in 2007 wouldn't have been involved in the collection of evidence from Persistence?  Why ALE at that time, when from my understanding Aruba had requested the assistance from the Dutch in September 2006?  Maybe the ship on the 11th & 12th was part of the Dutch team, but why weren't they involved on the 7th?  I think I may already know the answer to that one? But I don't like that answer.   

 

I think you answered your own question.   We had all thought that the Panter was there on the 11th and 12th to lift the cage with a crane.  Caps told us last week, though, that he and some friends did a dive recently and the cage is still there.  I have no idea now what Panter was doing on the 11th and 12th.

[SS]

I remember equipment that could vacuum the ocean floor around the cage was discussed at one point; I thought that was what the delay was in recovering the evidence in the cage.  Perhaps that is what was going on during the 11th and 12th, maybe the Dutch ship had that equipment? 

Kyle told Kermit that the cage was processed on the 7th.  That's when everything was put in the bags.  Kyle also said that the Panter didn't have dive capabilities on the 11th and 12th and they were only there for 42 minutes each day.

[KatzHome]

Just popped in to say hi everyone ~ with a special hello and a hug to Mrs Red and the few good friends I had on this board

No, I've never forgotten... only my recent "prayer" has kinda been like, "God, I'm really kinda surprised that you haven't answered my prayer that Natalee be found... it's the only thing you haven't said 'yes' to in over 15 years..." and it always seemed that His answer was something like, "But it isn't over yet... so how can you say I haven't answered your prayer...?" And just by chance I wound up on a Natalee thread over at BFN last night where I read that just the other day Joran did an interview with Greta... though it's been a long time, it ain't over yet...

I'm not able to hang out, research (not that I ever did that well) or try to think through scenarios of what may have happened to Natalee ~ but I'm still supporting you all with my prayers.

Wishing everyone a Happy Hanukkah ~ Merry Christmas ~ and a Happy New Year,

Love,
me

P.S. Funny, I also saw that Strike had the very same thought as me today, popping in to say hello ~ and I missed him... if anyone sees him ~ please tell him that I say hi ~ that my computer crashed and no longer have his or anyone else's email address ~ and that if he wants to ~ to drop me a line sometime.

Thanks ~ take care and God bless.

[johan555]

I think this is a human Bone !

[SS]

Hi Everyone,

Does anyone believe that Natalee was placed in a cage different than the one that was

described by the fisherman as missing in June 05 and in this different cage it is possible

that her remains stayed in the exact same place for 3 yrs, so much so that a pic of her

standing on the beach could be placed over cage remains and be exact fit?

Does anyone believe that divers/law enforcement would take ordinary

unmarked/unlabeled ziplock bags into the cage, gather evidence, move away from

evidence long enough for pic to be taken? And I notice in gathering evidence the

pics are crystal clear, amazing to me no sediment was disturbed, NONE..

Does anyone believe that OE/Kyle tried to sell the "legitimate" pics to news organizations and not one was interested in doing a story on "how the remains of Natalee

were found and Aruba is concealing it?"

If you do believe any of this, please help me understand how this happened, I am not getting it.

Maybe I just don't understand what all this is about, looks to me like "someone" was trying to scam for money, who? Could be several but Natalee's family is not part of

it that much I am certain of.

Thank you,

OS

OS - I really don't know how to begin to answer your questions except to suggest that you read the past two threads to understand why people are thinking the way that they are thinking.  The cage is different than the one from the huts.  This is a large commercial sized cage and it is questionable whether a fish cage was even stolen from the huts.  The condition of the remains in the cage as described by the experts who found the cage, indicate that the time of water exposure was consistent with the time frame.  There was a cover up and people reportedly have tried to make financial gain from photographs.  The ziplock bags are not ordinary ziplock bages.  They are huge evidence bags.  Three ordinary ziplock bags would not hold clothing, a shoe, various skeletal remains, and a skull.  Natalee's family is not part of any scam.  I don't know how else to help you with your questions.

[KatzHome]

P.S. While here I updated my signature block, and so, if anyone still wants one ~ the printable .pdf file for the Natalee bumper stickers is now on my own web site ~ I've updated the link to that file in my signature block. Yeah, even though I haven't posted in a very, very long time ~ I still still stand with the girl!

Love,
me

[truthseeker2]

Hi Everyone,

Does anyone believe that Natalee was placed in a cage different than the one that was

described by the fisherman as missing in June 05 and in this different cage it is possible

that her remains stayed in the exact same place for 3 yrs, so much so that a pic of her

standing on the beach could be placed over cage remains and be exact fit?

Does anyone believe that divers/law enforcement would take ordinary

unmarked/unlabeled ziplock bags into the cage, gather evidence, move away from

evidence long enough for pic to be taken? And I notice in gathering evidence the

pics are crystal clear, amazing to me no sediment was disturbed, NONE..

Does anyone believe that OE/Kyle tried to sell the "legitimate" pics to news organizations and not one was interested in doing a story on "how the remains of Natalee

were found and Aruba is concealing it?"

If you do believe any of this, please help me understand how this happened, I am not getting it.

Maybe I just don't understand what all this is about, looks to me like "someone" was trying to scam for money, who? Could be several but Natalee's family is not part of

it that much I am certain of.

Thank you,

OS

Thank you!!!!!!!!!   

[SS]

I think this is a human Bone !

Johan you have great eyes.  Now, it's not the radius or the ulna...what is it?