Natalee Case Discussion #783 12/6/08 - 12/8/08

[klaasend]

Sometimes it's important for things to be uncovered:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_affair

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewinsky_scandal

[San]

Look kermit...then post the truth!!!
The truth is..no one but the arubans really know what was found in that cage. Why do you have to bash Kyle to post the truth?

A. I have NOT said one personal bash against Kyle whatsoever. I have exposed the truth.
You have a right to choose to believe or not believe what you want.

B. Kyle stated: " The bags were removed just after the ROV got out of the way when the divers took the samples to their boat.... and took off. You have a right to choose to believe or not believe what you want.

Exactly.

It is how a person posts that makes me decided on what I believe.

I believe I can fly 

Well I believe you can too sweetheart.  You go girl and good luck with that.

         

Rock On!!   

 

[Rob]

DEAR KERMIT,

THANK YOU FOR SHARING THE INFORMATION.

SAN

Justice is justice in my opinion..and breaking someone's trust is not the just thing to do.

Ronald Reagan said "Trust, BUT VERIFY". Apparently, Kermit is verifying.

Wreck, tell me how kermit is verifying? And tell me how I am supposed to trust her information when I now know where it came from and the circumstances?

Then either post YOUR opinion and back it up, or quit whining.

My whole point is I can't make an educated opinion, I don't have all of the facts and the facts that kermit is bringing over I can't trust knowing how she got them.

I will state one opinion I firmly believe. From what I have read from kermit's posts, as a result of the actions of the aruban authorities, Kyle walked away from that search with a lot of unanswered questions, just the same as us. He is not some culprit in a conspiracy to cover up the discovery of Natalee.

He withheld evidence of a crime scene.

THATS MY VIEW AS WELL

[blah]

Kermit who are the Experts ?

This has been asked many times and I have yet to see an answer.  Maybe I missed it.

[Kermit]

Scandi wrote:

Thanks for that Tamikosmom,  Now I understand why Klassend feels so strongly there was a body discovered in the trap.  I wish I knew who our Kermit really is as he/she is definitely a special frog!

 

Can you explain what is so special about a person who asked permission to post portions of a  PRIVATE dialog, was NOT given permission, but posted it anyways? That is special? I think it is wrong. You do all understand that Kyle's posts were part of a DIALOG!! amongst trusted friends..or so it appears to me. I doubt this was Kyle talking to himself...so why just post Kyle's portion? Were there others who agreed, disagreed? And you wonder why I keep harping the "out of context" message...because anytime you take posts out of a dialog...you take it out of context!!!!

 

Can you also tell me what is so special about a person who claims they are being "threatened" not to post any additional info..when they have not been? Hey kermit, I saw the "threatening e-mail". You have posted everything else out of context, why withhold the "threats". Because there weren't any.

 

IF...lets assume IF these posts Kermit is posting were taken from a private forum, where confidentiality was SACRED!!!!!!!! so that people could discuss the Persistence search and noodle out ideas, information, facts, theories, fears, etc.....a private forum that was DEDICATED TO FINDING JUSTICE FOR NATALEE!!! where CONFIDENTIALITY had to be SACRED!!!! would you still consider Kermit so "special"?

 

If the posts that Kermit is posting...were SHARED!!! OPENLY!!! not covertly..OPENLY in a P_R_I_V_A_T_E forum...a "think tank" per se, amongst trusted and dedicated people who have spent the last three and a half years dedicated to posting the truth about Aruba and seeking justice for Natalee...would that change your opinions of the information that Kermit is posting at all? Would you then think what was posted was taken out of context. Would you be less likey to question the integrity of Kyle and the members of the Persistence? Would you question then...as I am...Kermit's motives? Is it really the truth she is looking for?

Well, I find that remark particulary offensive.  Just WTF do you think we're all spending time on here doing?

And, btw, all those exclamation points reek off jr high school.

JMO

I agree 1000%. All of this "we are the priviliged few with the inside scoop" pisses me off. I haven't spent 3 /12 years trying to find answers here and then be treated as  "unworthy" of knowing the "REAL" facts. I just as soon you all take your "private forum" and stuff it.

I would have liked to have been a member too...I wasn't invited. The issue is, imho..that those who were invited, agreed to keep the information they discussed confidential. That confidentiality has allowed the group to do some tremendous work. How can it ever continue now when the trust has been broken. that is the biggest shame of it all. I was taught if you give someone your word, you keep it.

Well OBVIOUSLY, Kermit thought the TRUTH (in her opinion) outweighed the "sanctity" of the private forum.

Withholding evidence in a crime is criminal.
I choose to expose the evidence.

It ain't easy being green

[snoopy]

You know what else gosh darn it?  Why does the Persistance search have to be so secretive?  That's crap right there.  It is what it is.  We were supposed to be informed step by step throughout the whole search.

If they found something then we should have been told about it right then and there.

Why does what was found in the trap or not have to be kept secret?  That's a bunch of crap.  There is no explanation that can be given to me that can change my mind.  Oooohhhh sent to the FBI well then I should shut my yap?  The FBI has no jurisdiction.


I want Natalee on Alabama soil. 

Aruba can make that happen

No Juctice for Natalee

No tourism for Aruba

I stand with all monkeys who share the truth as they know it.

Let the chips fall where they may

I stand with the girl

[klaasend]

Kermit who are the Experts ?

See now, that is a good question.  Thanks Johan 

i have every day 1 good question  lol 
to the point !

and darnit...my understanding from all that you posted is that Kyle walked away with some questions that were not answered for him by the aruban authorities...is that a fair question?

and he was trying to noodle out some questions he had about what happened in Aruba in a forum that he felt safe to, with people he respected..is that also a fair question?

ldstlou - Johan asked who Kermit's experts were.  I'd like to know also.  You are turning Johan's simple but good question into something it's not.  Don't read more into the post than what is there.

Johan:  who are the experts
Klaasend:  that is a good question

[ldstlou]

Kermit who are the Experts ?

See now, that is a good question.  Thanks Johan 

i have every day 1 good question  lol 
to the point !

and darnit...my understanding from all that you posted is that Kyle walked away with some questions that were not answered for him by the aruban authorities...is that a fair question?

and he was trying to noodle out some questions he had about what happened in Aruba in a forum that he felt safe to, with people he respected..is that also a fair question?

and one more question, is it fair to say that the only people who KNOW what was in that crab trap are the aruban authorities who took the contents away? That the family doesn't "know", that Kyle doesn't "know", that you don't "know"..and that once again, aruba left us with more questions than answers? Is that a fair statement?

[Kermit]

Thanks for that Tamikosmom,  Now I understand why Klassend feels so strongly there was a body discovered in the trap.  I wish I knew who our Kermit really is as he/she is definitely a special frog!   

Thanks Red for the reminder about D-Day.  I graduated from HS in '62 and had several friends whose fathers were right there in the mix.  My dad was building roads in the Phillipines with the Army Corps of Engineers.  We owe each and every soldier a great debt of gratitude for what they have done for our freedom.  xox

Hello Scandi,

I do not consider nor proport I am special.
I have, however, been involved in cases exposing criminals all the way to the White House.
Nothing special about me, just expose the truth.

[ldstlou]

Kermit who are the Experts ?

See now, that is a good question.  Thanks Johan 

i have every day 1 good question  lol 
to the point !

and darnit...my understanding from all that you posted is that Kyle walked away with some questions that were not answered for him by the aruban authorities...is that a fair question?

and he was trying to noodle out some questions he had about what happened in Aruba in a forum that he felt safe to, with people he respected..is that also a fair question?

ldstlou - Johan asked who Kermit's experts were.  I'd like to know also.  You are turning Johan's simple but good question into something it's not.  Don't read more into the post than what is there.

Johan:  who are the experts
Klaasend:  that is a good question

I am not turning it into anything. I agree with his question and added another I would like answered.

[Edward]

It is like the college Beth found to investigate.. what a joke..They start from ZERO!
 When she already had All of us here who have been with her since day 1 and are better informed then most, as we have done the research. We have been witness to each event.
We have sliced and diced each and every word and action of others involved in this case.
We have also been through the cast of characters so many times I think I know them all personally..
There is no better group to Help Dave and Beth then this group of serious researchers who have been dedicated to helping them solve this case and help in bringing Natalee home. There is a liberal group and a conservative group and all member have good thoughts and direction.
I could name names of the few the proud and the valiant group on various Forums, but you know who they are as they are consistent in research.
 Establishing a elite group out of those, is a good idea and it also stops redundancy of the same questions being asked and answered a million times by people who only come to the forums once in a while to give there opinion when news happens.
I really do not care, just let us know if the Free Birds are the Elite Group, then I will go back to my hobbies and family life and good luck to Dave and Beth.
I know that I have given my all in time and money to help a lost American citizen over the last 3.7 years.. I am happy about that.

[ldstlou]

DEAR KERMIT,

THANK YOU FOR SHARING THE INFORMATION.

SAN

Justice is justice in my opinion..and breaking someone's trust is not the just thing to do.

Ronald Reagan said "Trust, BUT VERIFY". Apparently, Kermit is verifying.

Wreck, tell me how kermit is verifying? And tell me how I am supposed to trust her information when I now know where it came from and the circumstances?

Then either post YOUR opinion and back it up, or quit whining.

My whole point is I can't make an educated opinion, I don't have all of the facts and the facts that kermit is bringing over I can't trust knowing how she got them.

I will state one opinion I firmly believe. From what I have read from kermit's posts, as a result of the actions of the aruban authorities, Kyle walked away from that search with a lot of unanswered questions, just the same as us. He is not some culprit in a conspiracy to cover up the discovery of Natalee.

He withheld evidence of a crime scene.

THATS MY VIEW AS WELL

according to whom?

[texasmom]

Thanks for that Tamikosmom,  Now I understand why Klassend feels so strongly there was a body discovered in the trap.  I wish I knew who our Kermit really is as he/she is definitely a special frog!   

Thanks Red for the reminder about D-Day.  I graduated from HS in '62 and had several friends whose fathers were right there in the mix.  My dad was building roads in the Phillipines with the Army Corps of Engineers.  We owe each and every soldier a great debt of gratitude for what they have done for our freedom.  xox

Hello Scandi,

I do not consider nor proport I am special.
I have, however, been involved in cases exposing criminals all the way to the White House.
Nothing special about me, just expose the truth.

That makes you pretty special in my book too Kermit!  

[Magnolia]

Lisa,
If you are not a member of the private forum, why do
you care what Kermit tells?
Are you defending Kyle?  Seems he could defend himself.
Why do you object to Monkeys having this information?
I just don't see why you are in such a state that you
must try to make Kermit appear less than honorable.
Your rantings just don't make sense to me.

[Lala'sMom]

Kermit
Who are the criminals here?  I am still confused...

Please help me understand this...you claim Kyle withheld evidence in a criminal case?  Right?  Can he not be prosecuted for that?  Have you turned him to the FBI for doing this?

Thanks.

[snoopy]

Well said Edward, and you stay right here buddy.  We're not done yet.

[Rob]

at this point, I could really care less what Kyle has to say - whatever it is - it will be contrived and I'm not interested in revisionist history.

[Kermit]

DEAR KERMIT,

THANK YOU FOR SHARING THE INFORMATION.

SAN

Justice is justice in my opinion..and breaking someone's trust is not the just thing to do.

Ronald Reagan said "Trust, BUT VERIFY". Apparently, Kermit is verifying.

Wreck, tell me how kermit is verifying? And tell me how I am supposed to trust her information when I now know where it came from and the circumstances?

Then either post YOUR opinion and back it up, or quit whining.

My whole point is I can't make an educated opinion, I don't have all of the facts and the facts that kermit is bringing over I can't trust knowing how she got them.

I will state one opinion I firmly believe. From what I have read from kermit's posts, as a result of the actions of the aruban authorities, Kyle walked away from that search with a lot of unanswered questions, just the same as us. He is not some culprit in a conspiracy to cover up the discovery of Natalee.

He withheld evidence of a crime scene.

THATS MY VIEW AS WELL

according to whom?

I'm sure Rob won't mind my answering your question about withholding evidence of a crime as illegal.
It's a law in the United States of America.
Maybe not in Aruba I don't know.

[ldstlou]

Kyle has had three weeks to post his side - he hides. I have no respect for someone who hides pics, tries to sell them, lies about it, jerks everyone around, and says the family saw everything.

In my opinion, whatever Kyles side is, it cant be explained rationally or it would have been three weeks ago.

could be though that it is a no win situation for him and so he has chosen not to advance it.

Lisa, this is not about winning or losing THIS IS ABOUT THE TRUTH - NO MATTER WHERE IT LEADS

Rob, I don't have a problem with the truth. I want it as bad as anyone else here. I am just saying, it appears to me that kermit was privy to some information that the rest of us did not have access to. She chose to bring it to SM. I am not saying that is bad!!! No one better to investigate than the Monkeys. It's here and it's being discussed. but kermit doesn't have to bash kyle in the process!! It appears kyle gave her access to that info to begim with!!

Bottom line...kermit did not not "uncover" some great big conspiracy, she brought over information that was being discussed elsewhere. lets call a spade a spade is all I am saying. No need to tear apart Kyle to do that.

Please give it a rest.......You've made Your point....We have more important things to discuss without all of this hoopla....going on.....I mean this in the nicest way.....Seriously......

did you read my post at all? There was no big discovery here. She copied and posted from a forum...duuuuh!!! Great detective work!!

And as far as I am concerned...we all knew that the aruban authories were the ones who collected the evidence. Where's the conspiracy? Once again...the arubans gathered the evidence. What they did with it after no one knows but the aruban authorites. We can only guess and speculate.

[Lifesong]

Lisa, this is not about winning or losing THIS IS ABOUT THE TRUTH - NO MATTER WHERE IT LEADS

Rob, I don't have a problem with the truth. I want it as bad as anyone else here. I am just saying, it appears to me that kermit was privy to some information that the rest of us did not have access to. She chose to bring it to SM. I am not saying that is bad!!! No one better to investigate than the Monkeys. It's here and it's being discussed. but kermit doesn't have to bash kyle in the process!! It appears kyle gave her access to that info to begim with!!

Bottom line...kermit did not not "uncover" some great big conspiracy, she brought over information that was being discussed elsewhere. lets call a spade a spade is all I am saying. No need to tear apart Kyle to do that.

I'm throwing the BullShit flag on that one!

Perfect example for any monkeys that might not recognize it -

 - Obfuscation: confuse the facts

 - Circular logic/reasoning: "I don't believe what I say I believe"  "This can't be because I say this other thing can't be.

 - Strawman arguements: Set up a false arena of discussion (ie. doesn't even relate to the point), then argue both sides if necessary to keep it going.

These are just some of the known and studied methods of distraction/disinformation.  Google it.

Not saying it's intentional or not - just that its important to recognize.

JMO