Natalee Case Discussion #783 12/6/08 - 12/8/08

[San]

Here is another opinion of mine Kyle can come here and defend himself until he is red in the face and i still won't believe him.

Most likely why he doesn't

That's a bullshit answer.  It's his fault.  Live and learn.

[Kermit]

A question for ldstlou:

Since you are not a member of this private forum, how you know that this is where the info/pictures are from?

Give us a straight answer and at least back up something you are saying.

TIA

You know what, when I agree not to share information that people have asked me not to share, I don't.

Why don't you ask Kermit where she got them? She knows.

fixed my post, my apologizes.



Yes I do know.

And I will not be a part of a cover-up, withholding of evidence illegally, or lying as a witness.

[ldstlou]

Kyle has had three weeks to post his side - he hides. I have no respect for someone who hides pics, tries to sell them, lies about it, jerks everyone around, and says the family saw everything.

In my opinion, whatever Kyles side is, it cant be explained rationally or it would have been three weeks ago.

could be though that it is a no win situation for him and so he has chosen not to advance it.

Lisa, this is not about winning or losing THIS IS ABOUT THE TRUTH - NO MATTER WHERE IT LEADS

Rob, I don't have a problem with the truth. I want it as bad as anyone else here. I am just saying, it appears to me that kermit was privy to some information that the rest of us did not have access to. She chose to bring it to SM. I am not saying that is bad!!! No one better to investigate than the Monkeys. It's here and it's being discussed. but kermit doesn't have to bash kyle in the process!! It appears kyle gave her access to that info to begim with!!

Bottom line...kermit did not not "uncover" some great big conspiracy, she brought over information that was being discussed elsewhere. lets call a spade a spade is all I am saying. No need to tear apart Kyle to do that.

Please give it a rest.......You've made Your point....We have more important things to discuss without all of this hoopla....going on.....I mean this in the nicest way.....Seriously......

did you read my post at all? There was no big discovery here. She copied and posted from a forum...duuuuh!!! Great detective work!!

And as far as I am concerned...we all knew that the aruban authories were the ones who collected the evidence. Where's the conspiracy? Once again...the arubans gathered the evidence. What they did with it after no one knows but the aruban authorites. We can only guess and speculate.

I wasn't aware of the Aruban authorities hiring the Persistence to search for Natalee, or of any funding that the Aruban authorities provided for this search for Natalee.  If the Persistence mission was only intended to provide every find from the mission to the Aruban authorities, we should have all been aware of that!  We should not have been ASKED what they should do with what they found!  They obviously didn't care what our responses were to that question, because if they indeed let them leave with every bit of evidence from that cage; that was the intent from the beginning.  If it wasn't what made them decide that was the RIGHT thing to do?  Free meals and drinks at Hooters, free lodging?  I want to know what made them decide to trust giving ALL of the evidence to the Aruban authorities!  I still hope I find out they didn't, when and if anyone decides we might have some kind of right to know this!

Do you think the crew of the Persistence had any say in that? They were in aruban waters. arubans were calling the shots. Do you remember how many times Tim Miller wanted to go back and search and they said no. Could it be that it was out of their hands?

[ldstlou]

A question for ldstlou:

Since you are not a member of this private forum, how you know that this is where the info/pictures are from?

Give us a straight answer and at least back up something you are saying.

TIA

You know what, when I agree not to share information that people have asked me not to share, I don't.

Why don't you ask Kermit where she got them? She knows.

fixed my post, my apologizes.



Yes I do know.

And I will not be a part of a cover-up, withholding of evidence illegally, or lying as a witness.

Then why don't you answer the questions?

Who were the experts?
Where did you get the photos and the posts?

Were others privy to the posts and pics?
Did you discuss the fact that you thought Kyle was withholding info with Beth?
Does beth agree with you?

[Lifesong]

A question for ldstlou:

Since you are not a member of this private forum, how you know that this is where the info/pictures are from?

Give us a straight answer and at least back up something you are saying.

TIA

You know what, when I agree not to share information that people have asked me not to share, I don't.

Why don't you ask Kermit where she got them? She knows.

Well, you should apologize to that group, because they must now know someone else is spilling their secrets to you.

I'll repeat myself here:

- Obfuscation: confuse the facts

 - Circular logic/reasoning: "I don't believe what I say I believe"  "This can't be because I say this other thing can't be.

 - Strawman arguements: Set up a false arena of discussion (ie. doesn't even relate to the point), then argue both sides if necessary to keep it going.

These are just some of the known and studied methods of distraction/disinformation.  Google it.

Not saying it's intentional or not - just that its important to recognize.

JMO

[Blue Moon]

Kyle has had three weeks to post his side - he hides. I have no respect for someone who hides pics, tries to sell them, lies about it, jerks everyone around, and says the family saw everything.

In my opinion, whatever Kyles side is, it cant be explained rationally or it would have been three weeks ago.

My question is if the pictures and information was SO SENSITIVE to the FBI why would Kyle post them on the INTERNET in the first place.  THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PRIVATE FORUM.

I have a thought on all of this and it's contrary to what most feel.  JMO based on what I have been reading here....

Due to jurisdiction and cover-up issues, I'm assuming the FBI was not "invited" to participate in this water search and Kyle knew this.  Kyle had his suspicions of corruption within the ALE himself.  He covertly took pictures of the evidence within the trap with the ROV in the event of a cover-up.

At some point he must have been invited to this "private site", the Freebirds, I guess, which he thought was a confidential place to discuss information.  He shared his suspicions of the pictures with people there he came to trust who knew more about the history of this case than he did.  He was trying to put the pictures in perspective to figure out what his next move would be.  Until he came to a conclusion, he didn't share the pics with the family or the FBI.

With regard to a so called documentary, maybe they thought it was their only alternative to reveal what was found in the trap.  It might be the only way to bring evidence forward without the authorities involved, just like DeVries did.  The FBI couldn't get involved; they weren't invited so any information coming through them couldn't be used.   Klye couldn't go through the ALE, they covered up the evidence.  I can't imagine his frustration at this point.

It saddens me to read his trust was broken, especially among people he felt he could trust enough to share this information with.  Was it the right thing to do, obviously not.  Kyle is young and has many life's lessons to learn, this being one of them. 
 
My hope is that putting Kyle's information on an open forum hasn't hurt the case in anyway.   

We need to remain focused and stop the infighting.  We are all here for the same purpose.....to find answers for Natalee and her family.

Pita - I would agree with you that Kyle is young and has many life's lessons to learn if he hadn't been warned in the VERY BEGINNING.

Kyle is highly intelligent but if he's that naive then he has NO BUSINESS dealing with sensitive information because he has NO CLUE.

When you have serious questions concerning something the FBI is or should be involved in you DO NOT take that info to a private forum and ask "What should I do with this?".  I am guessing someone on that boat informed him to butt out and never bring the subject up again.

[ldstlou]

Here is another opinion of mine Kyle can come here and defend himself until he is red in the face and i still won't believe him.

Most likely why he doesn't

That's a bullshit answer.  It's his fault.  Live and learn.

WHAT is his fault?

[Dana]

A question for ldstlou:

Since you are not a member of this private forum, how you know that this is where the info/pictures are from?

Give us a straight answer and at least back up something you are saying.

TIA

You know what, when I agree not to share information that people have asked me not to share, I don't.

Why don't you ask Kermit where she got them? She knows.

Kermit is a she ? 

Does Miss Piggy Know ? 

[Kermit]

Kyle has had three weeks to post his side - he hides. I have no respect for someone who hides pics, tries to sell them, lies about it, jerks everyone around, and says the family saw everything.

In my opinion, whatever Kyles side is, it cant be explained rationally or it would have been three weeks ago.

My question is if the pictures and information was SO SENSITIVE to the FBI why would Kyle post them on the INTERNET in the first place.  THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PRIVATE FORUM.

I have a thought on all of this and it's contrary to what most feel.  JMO based on what I have been reading here....

Due to jurisdiction and cover-up issues, I'm assuming the FBI was not "invited" to participate in this water search and Kyle knew this.  Kyle had his suspicions of corruption within the ALE himself.  He covertly took pictures of the evidence within the trap with the ROV in the event of a cover-up.

At some point he must have been invited to this "private site", the Freebirds, I guess, which he thought was a confidential place to discuss information.  He shared his suspicions of the pictures with people there he came to trust who knew more about the history of this case than he did.  He was trying to put the pictures in perspective to figure out what his next move would be.  Until he came to a conclusion, he didn't share the pics with the family or the FBI.

With regard to a so called documentary, maybe they thought it was their only alternative to reveal what was found in the trap.  It might be the only way to bring evidence forward without the authorities involved, just like DeVries did.  The FBI couldn't get involved; they weren't invited so any information coming through them couldn't be used.   Klye couldn't go through the ALE, they covered up the evidence.  I can't imagine his frustration at this point.

It saddens me to read his trust was broken, especially among people he felt he could trust enough to share this information with.  Was it the right thing to do, obviously not.  Kyle is young and has many life's lessons to learn, this being one of them. 
 
My hope is that putting Kyle's information on an open forum hasn't hurt the case in anyway.   

We need to remain focused and stop the infighting.  We are all here for the same purpose.....to find answers for Natalee and her family.

withholding of evidence of a crime is illegal, intentionally trying to sell the photos for personal gain is a crime, I think, maybe the frog is wrong. 


From Kyle: "I have not given anything to the FBI since the pictures and statements from Dec 29th"

Kyle: "From Kyle: May 8, 2008: "I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal."

[Kermit]

A question for ldstlou:

Since you are not a member of this private forum, how you know that this is where the info/pictures are from?

Give us a straight answer and at least back up something you are saying.

TIA

You know what, when I agree not to share information that people have asked me not to share, I don't.

Why don't you ask Kermit where she got them? She knows.

Kermit is a she ? 

Does Miss Piggy Know ? 

How else does one go undercover Mister Dana?
 

[ldstlou]

Kyle has had three weeks to post his side - he hides. I have no respect for someone who hides pics, tries to sell them, lies about it, jerks everyone around, and says the family saw everything.

In my opinion, whatever Kyles side is, it cant be explained rationally or it would have been three weeks ago.

My question is if the pictures and information was SO SENSITIVE to the FBI why would Kyle post them on the INTERNET in the first place.  THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PRIVATE FORUM.

I have a thought on all of this and it's contrary to what most feel.  JMO based on what I have been reading here....

Due to jurisdiction and cover-up issues, I'm assuming the FBI was not "invited" to participate in this water search and Kyle knew this.  Kyle had his suspicions of corruption within the ALE himself.  He covertly took pictures of the evidence within the trap with the ROV in the event of a cover-up.

At some point he must have been invited to this "private site", the Freebirds, I guess, which he thought was a confidential place to discuss information.  He shared his suspicions of the pictures with people there he came to trust who knew more about the history of this case than he did.  He was trying to put the pictures in perspective to figure out what his next move would be.  Until he came to a conclusion, he didn't share the pics with the family or the FBI.

With regard to a so called documentary, maybe they thought it was their only alternative to reveal what was found in the trap.  It might be the only way to bring evidence forward without the authorities involved, just like DeVries did.  The FBI couldn't get involved; they weren't invited so any information coming through them couldn't be used.   Klye couldn't go through the ALE, they covered up the evidence.  I can't imagine his frustration at this point.

It saddens me to read his trust was broken, especially among people he felt he could trust enough to share this information with.  Was it the right thing to do, obviously not.  Kyle is young and has many life's lessons to learn, this being one of them. 
 
My hope is that putting Kyle's information on an open forum hasn't hurt the case in anyway.   

We need to remain focused and stop the infighting.  We are all here for the same purpose.....to find answers for Natalee and her family.

Pita - I would agree with you that Kyle is young and has many life's lessons to learn if he hadn't been warned in the VERY BEGINNING.

Kyle is highly intelligent but if he's that naive then he has NO BUSINESS dealing with sensitive information because he has NO CLUE.

When you have serious questions concerning something the FBI is or should be involved in you DO NOT take that info to a private forum and ask "What should I do with this?".  I am guessing someone on that boat informed him to butt out and never bring the subject up again.

ok...but isn't that what kermit has been doing. Bring serious questions she has concerning something the FBI should be involved in to SM.

If she really was concerned...should SHE have kept it quiet and gone to the family and the FBI instead of SM?

[Dana]

A question for ldstlou:

Since you are not a member of this private forum, how you know that this is where the info/pictures are from?

Give us a straight answer and at least back up something you are saying.

TIA

You know what, when I agree not to share information that people have asked me not to share, I don't.

Why don't you ask Kermit where she got them? She knows.

Kermit is a she ? 

Does Miss Piggy Know ? 

How else does one go undercover Mister Dana?
 

 

[Blue Moon]

A question for ldstlou:

Since you are not a member of this private forum, how you know that this is where the info/pictures are from?

Give us a straight answer and at least back up something you are saying.

TIA

You know what, when I agree not to share information that people have asked me not to share, I don't.

Why don't you ask Kermit where she got them? She knows.

Kermit is a she ? 

Does Miss Piggy Know ? 

Read much here Dana?   

[klaasend]

Here is another opinion of mine Kyle can come here and defend himself until he is red in the face and i still won't believe him.

Most likely why he doesn't

That's a bullshit answer.  It's his fault.  Live and learn.

WHAT is his fault?

If Kyle posted or shared information or photos that was sensitive to the case, sensitive enough that he's being warned by the FBI not to discuss it further, then it is HIS FAULT for being stupid and sharing the information in the first place.

[ldstlou]

A question for ldstlou:

Since you are not a member of this private forum, how you know that this is where the info/pictures are from?

Give us a straight answer and at least back up something you are saying.

TIA

You know what, when I agree not to share information that people have asked me not to share, I don't.

Why don't you ask Kermit where she got them? She knows.

fixed my post, my apologizes.



Yes I do know.

And I will not be a part of a cover-up, withholding of evidence illegally, or lying as a witness.

Then why don't you answer the questions?

Who were the experts?
Where did you get the photos and the posts?

Were others privy to the posts and pics?
Did you discuss the fact that you thought Kyle was withholding info with Beth?
Does beth agree with you?

bump

[Magnolia]

It seems to me that if Kyle had put those images on a
public forum in the beginning, the Arubans would have
had to account for the evidence before they could dispose
of it.
He gave them plenty of time to cover it up.

[Dana]

A question for ldstlou:

Since you are not a member of this private forum, how you know that this is where the info/pictures are from?

Give us a straight answer and at least back up something you are saying.

TIA

You know what, when I agree not to share information that people have asked me not to share, I don't.

Why don't you ask Kermit where she got them? She knows.

Kermit is a she ? 

Does Miss Piggy Know ? 

Read much here Dana?   

sure do, i was trying to bring a little humor into a tense situation

[ldstlou]

Here is another opinion of mine Kyle can come here and defend himself until he is red in the face and i still won't believe him.

Most likely why he doesn't

That's a bullshit answer.  It's his fault.  Live and learn.

WHAT is his fault?

If Kyle posted or shared information or photos that was sensitive to the case, sensitive enough that he's being warned by the FBI not to discuss it further, then it is HIS FAULT for being stupid and sharing the information in the first place.

but it's ok for kermit to bring the same info here.

[Kermit]

Kyle has had three weeks to post his side - he hides. I have no respect for someone who hides pics, tries to sell them, lies about it, jerks everyone around, and says the family saw everything.

In my opinion, whatever Kyles side is, it cant be explained rationally or it would have been three weeks ago.

My question is if the pictures and information was SO SENSITIVE to the FBI why would Kyle post them on the INTERNET in the first place.  THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PRIVATE FORUM.

I have a thought on all of this and it's contrary to what most feel.  JMO based on what I have been reading here....

Due to jurisdiction and cover-up issues, I'm assuming the FBI was not "invited" to participate in this water search and Kyle knew this.  Kyle had his suspicions of corruption within the ALE himself.  He covertly took pictures of the evidence within the trap with the ROV in the event of a cover-up.

At some point he must have been invited to this "private site", the Freebirds, I guess, which he thought was a confidential place to discuss information.  He shared his suspicions of the pictures with people there he came to trust who knew more about the history of this case than he did.  He was trying to put the pictures in perspective to figure out what his next move would be.  Until he came to a conclusion, he didn't share the pics with the family or the FBI.

With regard to a so called documentary, maybe they thought it was their only alternative to reveal what was found in the trap.  It might be the only way to bring evidence forward without the authorities involved, just like DeVries did.  The FBI couldn't get involved; they weren't invited so any information coming through them couldn't be used.   Klye couldn't go through the ALE, they covered up the evidence.  I can't imagine his frustration at this point.

It saddens me to read his trust was broken, especially among people he felt he could trust enough to share this information with.  Was it the right thing to do, obviously not.  Kyle is young and has many life's lessons to learn, this being one of them. 
 
My hope is that putting Kyle's information on an open forum hasn't hurt the case in anyway.   

We need to remain focused and stop the infighting.  We are all here for the same purpose.....to find answers for Natalee and her family.

Pita - I would agree with you that Kyle is young and has many life's lessons to learn if he hadn't been warned in the VERY BEGINNING.

Kyle is highly intelligent but if he's that naive then he has NO BUSINESS dealing with sensitive information because he has NO CLUE.

When you have serious questions concerning something the FBI is or should be involved in you DO NOT take that info to a private forum and ask "What should I do with this?".  I am guessing someone on that boat informed him to butt out and never bring the subject up again.

John Silvetti (according to Kyle) (add: I saw part of the email, so Kyle, I think is telling the truth) accused Kyle of leaking the pond photos at SM.

[texasmom]

Kyle has had three weeks to post his side - he hides. I have no respect for someone who hides pics, tries to sell them, lies about it, jerks everyone around, and says the family saw everything.

In my opinion, whatever Kyles side is, it cant be explained rationally or it would have been three weeks ago.

could be though that it is a no win situation for him and so he has chosen not to advance it.

Lisa, this is not about winning or losing THIS IS ABOUT THE TRUTH - NO MATTER WHERE IT LEADS

Rob, I don't have a problem with the truth. I want it as bad as anyone else here. I am just saying, it appears to me that kermit was privy to some information that the rest of us did not have access to. She chose to bring it to SM. I am not saying that is bad!!! No one better to investigate than the Monkeys. It's here and it's being discussed. but kermit doesn't have to bash kyle in the process!! It appears kyle gave her access to that info to begim with!!

Bottom line...kermit did not not "uncover" some great big conspiracy, she brought over information that was being discussed elsewhere. lets call a spade a spade is all I am saying. No need to tear apart Kyle to do that.

Please give it a rest.......You've made Your point....We have more important things to discuss without all of this hoopla....going on.....I mean this in the nicest way.....Seriously......

did you read my post at all? There was no big discovery here. She copied and posted from a forum...duuuuh!!! Great detective work!!

And as far as I am concerned...we all knew that the aruban authories were the ones who collected the evidence. Where's the conspiracy? Once again...the arubans gathered the evidence. What they did with it after no one knows but the aruban authorites. We can only guess and speculate.

I wasn't aware of the Aruban authorities hiring the Persistence to search for Natalee, or of any funding that the Aruban authorities provided for this search for Natalee.  If the Persistence mission was only intended to provide every find from the mission to the Aruban authorities, we should have all been aware of that!  We should not have been ASKED what they should do with what they found!  They obviously didn't care what our responses were to that question, because if they indeed let them leave with every bit of evidence from that cage; that was the intent from the beginning.  If it wasn't what made them decide that was the RIGHT thing to do?  Free meals and drinks at Hooters, free lodging?  I want to know what made them decide to trust giving ALL of the evidence to the Aruban authorities!  I still hope I find out they didn't, when and if anyone decides we might have some kind of right to know this!

Do you think the crew of the Persistence had any say in that? They were in aruban waters. arubans were calling the shots. Do you remember how many times Tim Miller wanted to go back and search and they said no. Could it be that it was out of their hands?

Tim Miller KNEW the Aruban authorities could not be trusted with ALL of the evidence.  Seems to me that's part of WHY he was considered a liability on that boat.  To answer your question, HELL YES, the Persistence crew had a say in the matter; the fact that Tim Miller was not on board when the evidence was collected says it all!  JMO, from the information I have.