Natalee Case Discussion #783 12/6/08 - 12/8/08

[Kermit]

Hmmmm. Good and Happy Afternoon, Monkeys! 

Even if some of us have to be dragged into the fold, we're doing a group hug, dammit!



 

Well dammit alright then.  lol

I'm in. I am not trying to divide anyone. I am just looking for all of the truth from kermit.

But Hotshot said she was going to reveal the 1/2 of truth she has.

Lets wait for her.

[johan555]

So I must choose

Believe you or Beth and Dave

I have no choice?

[Tamikosmom]

Hmmmm. Good and Happy Afternoon, Monkeys! 

Even if some of us have to be dragged into the fold, we're doing a group hug, dammit!



 

Well dammit alright then.  lol

Kermit is a she ?
 

 

Dana ... I have been posting with Kermit almost from the getgo and ... thought that "he" would make a very good catch for some gal.  I think "she" will always be a "he".  At my age ... I have difficulty with change.

Janet

[Dana]

Hmmmm. Good and Happy Afternoon, Monkeys! 

Even if some of us have to be dragged into the fold, we're doing a group hug, dammit!



 

Well dammit alright then.  lol

OK. Now get in those seperate corners and come out fighting to the lively case discussion!

my money is on the frog 

[Helen Back]

Meanwhile, Beth and Dave suffer and Natalee remains dead for another Christmas. And all this energy is wasted.

At a moment when we are starting, long over-due, to look at the first 48 hours and a direct  accusation of what we've known all along, you're focusing of underwater pictures?

Skipping past the van der straaten involvement, the van der sloot house, and the actual crimes committed against Natalee in her last moments?

And by Paulus van der sloot when she was alive.

How can anyone picture Natalee's face right now and waste time making this about anything other than bringing her home?

Confrontation can be a great moment in the creative process but this ain't it.

Thanks, Frank.

I'm spending my energy writing to the members of the Dutch parliament, asking that they initiate an investigation of the corruption in the Aruban government, resulting in the violation of Natalee Holloway's human rights. 

Information provided by Caesu snipped from post on page five of this thread:

so through article 43 is the only option for Aruba

that's why i keep repeating that it is important to contact the Dutch members of Parliament.
and the coming week is crucial with debates on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday - leading op to the Round Table Conference between the three Prime-Ministers with Balkenende presiding in Curaçao on December 15th.

list of members of Parliament of the Aruban/Antilles committee:
http://www.tweedekamer.nl/kamerleden/commissies/NAAZ/index.jsp#0
names on top of the list are the highest ranking members.
(e-mail will appear if you click on a name and "Naar persoonlijke pagina").


As soon as I figure out the etiquette for writing to a member of the Dutch Parliament, I am writing them all.
Wanna help me?

[Kermit]

One more question Kermit.

Did YOU dicuss with Beth, your concerns that Kyle was withholding evidence from the family.
What was her response?

Lisa you are trying to get Kermit to answer questions so you can ask Jug to ask Beth if this happened.
 
Stop it already.

San I am asking legitimate questions!!!
If Kermit believes Kyle was withholding info, I would think Beth was the first person she would go to. I just want to know if she did and if Beth agreed?

How about we ask a bunch questions for Kyle and you can ask him to answer them for us.

I'm sure he won't mind.

This made me smile. Thank you San.

[snoopy]

Kyle has had three weeks to post his side - he hides. I have no respect for someone who hides pics, tries to sell them, lies about it, jerks everyone around, and says the family saw everything.

In my opinion, whatever Kyles side is, it cant be explained rationally or it would have been three weeks ago.

could be though that it is a no win situation for him and so he has chosen not to advance it.

Lisa, this is not about winning or losing THIS IS ABOUT THE TRUTH - NO MATTER WHERE IT LEADS

Rob, I don't have a problem with the truth. I want it as bad as anyone else here. I am just saying, it appears to me that kermit was privy to some information that the rest of us did not have access to. She chose to bring it to SM. I am not saying that is bad!!! No one better to investigate than the Monkeys. It's here and it's being discussed. but kermit doesn't have to bash kyle in the process!! It appears kyle gave her access to that info to begim with!!

Bottom line...kermit did not not "uncover" some great big conspiracy, she brought over information that was being discussed elsewhere. lets call a spade a spade is all I am saying. No need to tear apart Kyle to do that.

Please give it a rest.......You've made Your point....We have more important things to discuss without all of this hoopla....going on.....I mean this in the nicest way.....Seriously......

did you read my post at all? There was no big discovery here. She copied and posted from a forum...duuuuh!!! Great detective work!!

And as far as I am concerned...we all knew that the aruban authories were the ones who collected the evidence. Where's the conspiracy? Once again...the arubans gathered the evidence. What they did with it after no one knows but the aruban authorites. We can only guess and speculate.

I wasn't aware of the Aruban authorities hiring the Persistence to search for Natalee, or of any funding that the Aruban authorities provided for this search for Natalee.  If the Persistence mission was only intended to provide every find from the mission to the Aruban authorities, we should have all been aware of that!  We should not have been ASKED what they should do with what they found!  They obviously didn't care what our responses were to that question, because if they indeed let them leave with every bit of evidence from that cage; that was the intent from the beginning.  If it wasn't what made them decide that was the RIGHT thing to do?  Free meals and drinks at Hooters, free lodging?  I want to know what made them decide to trust giving ALL of the evidence to the Aruban authorities!  I still hope I find out they didn't, when and if anyone decides we might have some kind of right to know this!

Do you think the crew of the Persistence had any say in that? They were in aruban waters. arubans were calling the shots. Do you remember how many times Tim Miller wanted to go back and search and they said no. Could it be that it was out of their hands?

I'm sorry but I don't agree.  When dealing with shady  bas....ds you do whatcha gotta do.  They  (the Persistence)should have went down to that trap while videoing to protect the chain of command......investigated the trap........while documenting everything and then called in the Aruban authorities.  I would have also told their sorry asses that I had already gone down there....documented everything......taken a sample and now they can do whatever they want to.  Keep their feet to the fire and keep them honest.  They wouldn't have had a choice but to do the right thing.  But that wasn't done.  That's a shame and they should have known better.

[ldstlou]

Hmmmm. Good and Happy Afternoon, Monkeys! 

Even if some of us have to be dragged into the fold, we're doing a group hug, dammit!



 

Well dammit alright then.  lol

Kermit is a she ?
 

For your evening show an oldie but goodie:

I am woman, hear me roar, if you don't open my door
I can do anything that a man can do, but I don't have too

ok...still beating around the bush...so let me ask it this way.

Did Kyle contact someone who knew Beth to try and get this info to her?

[Kermit]

Hmmmm. Good and Happy Afternoon, Monkeys! 

Even if some of us have to be dragged into the fold, we're doing a group hug, dammit!



 

Well dammit alright then.  lol

OK. Now get in those seperate corners and come out fighting to the lively case discussion!

my money is on the frog 

Your a prince!

[ldstlou]

One more question Kermit.

Did YOU dicuss with Beth, your concerns that Kyle was withholding evidence from the family.
What was her response?

Lisa you are trying to get Kermit to answer questions so you can ask Jug to ask Beth if this happened.
 
Stop it already.

San I am asking legitimate questions!!!
If Kermit believes Kyle was withholding info, I would think Beth was the first person she would go to. I just want to know if she did and if Beth agreed?

How about we ask a bunch questions for Kyle and you can ask him to answer them for us.

I'm sure he won't mind.

This made me smile. Thank you San.

first I'd just like to get kermit to answer mine.

[klaasend]

There appears to be some kind of power struggle going on.  I'd really like to know how others that were members of the "private" forum feel about Kermit's posts.  Seems there are some that are feeling betrayed by Kyle and others that feel betrayed by Kermit.  Personally, I don't know what to believe.

About the cage and the pics.  It looks to me that there very wll may have been human remains in that cage, who's remains I don't know.  What happened to the evidence from the cage I don't know.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PRIVATE FORUM.  Information always leaks out, people always get mad.  That is why we have no private areas at SM.

The original ROV images ... the six that Kyle sent to the FBI and ... then passed on to Dave Holloway were posted in a private internet forum by his wife.  However ... the ROV images did not remain there.  As Klaas said, "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PRIVATE FORUM".  Falling outs occur all the time and ... private no longer is private. Actually they were posted at BNH which is only private in that only members could read but anyone could become a member.  Those particular first pics were emailed to me after being posted at BNH. 

The recently ROV images that the Aruban were not given an opportunity to destroy ... images that were not among the six that Kyle originally sent to the FBI .. were sent in an email to Kermit by Kyle.  Also ... Kyle shared his concerns and observations with Kermit in email communications ... concerns and observations which implied that everything taking place aboad the Persistence was not about justice for Natalee Holloway.

Apparently ... according to Kermit ... once the search has ended ... Kyle's initial intentions were honorable.  He intended to share everything shared with Kermit ... observations, concerns and unrevealed ROV images ... with the FBI and the family of Natalee Holloway.  At this point in time ...  Kermit was quiet regarding all the Kyle had shared with him.

However ... somewhere along the line Kyle had a change of heart and ... rather than contacting the FBI and Natalee's family with his concerns, observations and ROV images ... he made the decision to make a deal by contacting major networks.  He would not back down and ... this is why ... rather than being a party to the apparent Persistance coverup ... Kermit contacted the FBI ... Natalee's family and shared his knowledge.  Only then did he post all her had been privied to by Kyle on the SM forum.  And the truth about this SHOULD be told and I mean we need to know what the absolute truth is.

I for one am thankful.  I made a one time substantial donation through TES very early on to the planned search endeavor.  I believe that entitles me to be informed if maybe ... just maybe ... I was supporting a search and destroy evidence mission ... a mission where there was collaboration with those who have put a family through a H--- on Earth by protecting Joran and Paulus van der Sloot from participation in the events that encompasses the morning of May 30, 2005 ... the morning when an American citizen went missing and ... was never seen again.

IMO

Janet

My comments in blue above.

[snoopy]

It seems to me that if Kyle had put those images on a
public forum in the beginning, the Arubans would have
had to account for the evidence before they could dispose
of it.
He gave them plenty of time to cover it up.

Exactly!

[Ebb]

Idstlou
Can you explain why it matters whether or not Kermit contacted Beth with evidence of the coverup on the Persistence? Instead of just asking it over and over? We are all stuck here.
Ebb

[johan555]

Kermit is posted this pics last night can you give a comment ?

[Pita]

Kyle has had three weeks to post his side - he hides. I have no respect for someone who hides pics, tries to sell them, lies about it, jerks everyone around, and says the family saw everything.

In my opinion, whatever Kyles side is, it cant be explained rationally or it would have been three weeks ago.

My question is if the pictures and information was SO SENSITIVE to the FBI why would Kyle post them on the INTERNET in the first place.  THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PRIVATE FORUM.

I have a thought on all of this and it's contrary to what most feel.  JMO based on what I have been reading here....

Due to jurisdiction and cover-up issues, I'm assuming the FBI was not "invited" to participate in this water search and Kyle knew this.  Kyle had his suspicions of corruption within the ALE himself.  He covertly took pictures of the evidence within the trap with the ROV in the event of a cover-up.

At some point he must have been invited to this "private site", the Freebirds, I guess, which he thought was a confidential place to discuss information.  He shared his suspicions of the pictures with people there he came to trust who knew more about the history of this case than he did.  He was trying to put the pictures in perspective to figure out what his next move would be.  Until he came to a conclusion, he didn't share the pics with the family or the FBI.

With regard to a so called documentary, maybe they thought it was their only alternative to reveal what was found in the trap.  It might be the only way to bring evidence forward without the authorities involved, just like DeVries did.  The FBI couldn't get involved; they weren't invited so any information coming through them couldn't be used.   Klye couldn't go through the ALE, they covered up the evidence.  I can't imagine his frustration at this point.

It saddens me to read his trust was broken, especially among people he felt he could trust enough to share this information with.  Was it the right thing to do, obviously not.  Kyle is young and has many life's lessons to learn, this being one of them. 
 
My hope is that putting Kyle's information on an open forum hasn't hurt the case in anyway.   

We need to remain focused and stop the infighting.  We are all here for the same purpose.....to find answers for Natalee and her family.

Pita - I would agree with you that Kyle is young and has many life's lessons to learn if he hadn't been warned in the VERY BEGINNING.

Kyle is highly intelligent but if he's that naive then he has NO BUSINESS dealing with sensitive information because he has NO CLUE.

Who warned him?  Yes, I'd imagine Kyle is very intelligent.  It seems many at a private site were dealing with sensitive information besides him.  Do they not have a clue either?  And what makes it right to post sensitive information on a public forum if it is relevant to an ongoing missing person's case?

[Blonde]

Kyle has had three weeks to post his side - he hides. I have no respect for someone who hides pics, tries to sell them, lies about it, jerks everyone around, and says the family saw everything.

In my opinion, whatever Kyles side is, it cant be explained rationally or it would have been three weeks ago.

My question is if the pictures and information was SO SENSITIVE to the FBI why would Kyle post them on the INTERNET in the first place.  THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PRIVATE FORUM.

I have a thought on all of this and it's contrary to what most feel.  JMO based on what I have been reading here....

Due to jurisdiction and cover-up issues, I'm assuming the FBI was not "invited" to participate in this water search and Kyle knew this.  Kyle had his suspicions of corruption within the ALE himself.  He covertly took pictures of the evidence within the trap with the ROV in the event of a cover-up.

At some point he must have been invited to this "private site", the Freebirds, I guess, which he thought was a confidential place to discuss information.  He shared his suspicions of the pictures with people there he came to trust who knew more about the history of this case than he did.  He was trying to put the pictures in perspective to figure out what his next move would be.  Until he came to a conclusion, he didn't share the pics with the family or the FBI.

With regard to a so called documentary, maybe they thought it was their only alternative to reveal what was found in the trap.  It might be the only way to bring evidence forward without the authorities involved, just like DeVries did.  The FBI couldn't get involved; they weren't invited so any information coming through them couldn't be used.   Klye couldn't go through the ALE, they covered up the evidence.  I can't imagine his frustration at this point.

It saddens me to read his trust was broken, especially among people he felt he could trust enough to share this information with.  Was it the right thing to do, obviously not.  Kyle is young and has many life's lessons to learn, this being one of them. 
 
My hope is that putting Kyle's information on an open forum hasn't hurt the case in anyway.   

We need to remain focused and stop the infighting.  We are all here for the same purpose.....to find answers for Natalee and her family.

Pita - I would agree with you that Kyle is young and has many life's lessons to learn if he hadn't been warned in the VERY BEGINNING.

Kyle is highly intelligent but if he's that naive then he has NO BUSINESS dealing with sensitive information because he has NO CLUE.

When you have serious questions concerning something the FBI is or should be involved in you DO NOT take that info to a private forum and ask "What should I do with this?".  I am guessing someone on that boat informed him to butt out and never bring the subject up again.

ok...but isn't that what kermit has been doing. Bring serious questions she has concerning something the FBI should be involved in to SM.

If she really was concerned...should SHE have kept it quiet and gone to the family and the FBI instead of SM?

Knowing Kermit she already did ,then shared it with SM

[Kermit]

Kyle has had three weeks to post his side - he hides. I have no respect for someone who hides pics, tries to sell them, lies about it, jerks everyone around, and says the family saw everything.

In my opinion, whatever Kyles side is, it cant be explained rationally or it would have been three weeks ago.

could be though that it is a no win situation for him and so he has chosen not to advance it.

Lisa, this is not about winning or losing THIS IS ABOUT THE TRUTH - NO MATTER WHERE IT LEADS

Rob, I don't have a problem with the truth. I want it as bad as anyone else here. I am just saying, it appears to me that kermit was privy to some information that the rest of us did not have access to. She chose to bring it to SM. I am not saying that is bad!!! No one better to investigate than the Monkeys. It's here and it's being discussed. but kermit doesn't have to bash kyle in the process!! It appears kyle gave her access to that info to begim with!!

Bottom line...kermit did not not "uncover" some great big conspiracy, she brought over information that was being discussed elsewhere. lets call a spade a spade is all I am saying. No need to tear apart Kyle to do that.

Please give it a rest.......You've made Your point....We have more important things to discuss without all of this hoopla....going on.....I mean this in the nicest way.....Seriously......

did you read my post at all? There was no big discovery here. She copied and posted from a forum...duuuuh!!! Great detective work!!

And as far as I am concerned...we all knew that the aruban authories were the ones who collected the evidence. Where's the conspiracy? Once again...the arubans gathered the evidence. What they did with it after no one knows but the aruban authorites. We can only guess and speculate.

I wasn't aware of the Aruban authorities hiring the Persistence to search for Natalee, or of any funding that the Aruban authorities provided for this search for Natalee.  If the Persistence mission was only intended to provide every find from the mission to the Aruban authorities, we should have all been aware of that!  We should not have been ASKED what they should do with what they found!  They obviously didn't care what our responses were to that question, because if they indeed let them leave with every bit of evidence from that cage; that was the intent from the beginning.  If it wasn't what made them decide that was the RIGHT thing to do?  Free meals and drinks at Hooters, free lodging?  I want to know what made them decide to trust giving ALL of the evidence to the Aruban authorities!  I still hope I find out they didn't, when and if anyone decides we might have some kind of right to know this!

Do you think the crew of the Persistence had any say in that? They were in aruban waters. arubans were calling the shots. Do you remember how many times Tim Miller wanted to go back and search and they said no. Could it be that it was out of their hands?

I'm sorry but I don't agree.  When dealing with shady  bas....ds you do whatcha gotta do.  They  (the Persistence)should have went down to that trap while videoing to protect the chain of command......investigated the trap........while documenting everything and then called in the Aruban authorities.  I would have also told their sorry asses that I had already gone down there....documented everything......taken a sample and now they can do whatever they want to.  Keep their feet to the fire and keep them honest.  They wouldn't have had a choice but to do the right thing.  But that wasn't done.  That's a shame and they should have known better.

I agree.
It's not like the RV Persistence, it's crew and it's owner didn't know about the Arubans, that is why they were called in!

December 30 Kyle says John definitely believed the Arubans at their every word when they said on Dec 30th that it was nothing case relevant

[Kermit]

Kyle has had three weeks to post his side - he hides. I have no respect for someone who hides pics, tries to sell them, lies about it, jerks everyone around, and says the family saw everything.

In my opinion, whatever Kyles side is, it cant be explained rationally or it would have been three weeks ago.

My question is if the pictures and information was SO SENSITIVE to the FBI why would Kyle post them on the INTERNET in the first place.  THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PRIVATE FORUM.

I have a thought on all of this and it's contrary to what most feel.  JMO based on what I have been reading here....

Due to jurisdiction and cover-up issues, I'm assuming the FBI was not "invited" to participate in this water search and Kyle knew this.  Kyle had his suspicions of corruption within the ALE himself.  He covertly took pictures of the evidence within the trap with the ROV in the event of a cover-up.

At some point he must have been invited to this "private site", the Freebirds, I guess, which he thought was a confidential place to discuss information.  He shared his suspicions of the pictures with people there he came to trust who knew more about the history of this case than he did.  He was trying to put the pictures in perspective to figure out what his next move would be.  Until he came to a conclusion, he didn't share the pics with the family or the FBI.

With regard to a so called documentary, maybe they thought it was their only alternative to reveal what was found in the trap.  It might be the only way to bring evidence forward without the authorities involved, just like DeVries did.  The FBI couldn't get involved; they weren't invited so any information coming through them couldn't be used.   Klye couldn't go through the ALE, they covered up the evidence.  I can't imagine his frustration at this point.

It saddens me to read his trust was broken, especially among people he felt he could trust enough to share this information with.  Was it the right thing to do, obviously not.  Kyle is young and has many life's lessons to learn, this being one of them. 
 
My hope is that putting Kyle's information on an open forum hasn't hurt the case in anyway.   

We need to remain focused and stop the infighting.  We are all here for the same purpose.....to find answers for Natalee and her family.

Pita - I would agree with you that Kyle is young and has many life's lessons to learn if he hadn't been warned in the VERY BEGINNING.

Kyle is highly intelligent but if he's that naive then he has NO BUSINESS dealing with sensitive information because he has NO CLUE.

When you have serious questions concerning something the FBI is or should be involved in you DO NOT take that info to a private forum and ask "What should I do with this?".  I am guessing someone on that boat informed him to butt out and never bring the subject up again.

ok...but isn't that what kermit has been doing. Bring serious questions she has concerning something the FBI should be involved in to SM.

If she really was concerned...should SHE have kept it quiet and gone to the family and the FBI instead of SM?

Knowing Kermit she already did ,then shared it with SM

kermmie has been involved in investigations before, including and not limited to the White House.
The frog knows what to do.

Not always though.

But I'd say for the most part, the frog knows what to do and how to do it.

[blah]

66 Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #781 12/3/08 -  on: December 04, 2008, 06:57:40 PM 
Quote from: Elaine on December 04, 2008, 06:47:33 PM
Ok, Ive been lurking and reading. I would just like to ask one question to Kermit and Hotshot.
So do you think part of natalee WAS found in that cage. Because it is sure sounding like that is what you are both saying, just in different ways. TIA

According to the experts, YES she was in the cage.

Kermit, according to what experts was Natalee in the cage?

[Kermit]

Kyle has had three weeks to post his side - he hides. I have no respect for someone who hides pics, tries to sell them, lies about it, jerks everyone around, and says the family saw everything.

In my opinion, whatever Kyles side is, it cant be explained rationally or it would have been three weeks ago.

My question is if the pictures and information was SO SENSITIVE to the FBI why would Kyle post them on the INTERNET in the first place.  THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PRIVATE FORUM.

I have a thought on all of this and it's contrary to what most feel.  JMO based on what I have been reading here....

Due to jurisdiction and cover-up issues, I'm assuming the FBI was not "invited" to participate in this water search and Kyle knew this.  Kyle had his suspicions of corruption within the ALE himself.  He covertly took pictures of the evidence within the trap with the ROV in the event of a cover-up.

At some point he must have been invited to this "private site", the Freebirds, I guess, which he thought was a confidential place to discuss information.  He shared his suspicions of the pictures with people there he came to trust who knew more about the history of this case than he did.  He was trying to put the pictures in perspective to figure out what his next move would be.  Until he came to a conclusion, he didn't share the pics with the family or the FBI.

With regard to a so called documentary, maybe they thought it was their only alternative to reveal what was found in the trap.  It might be the only way to bring evidence forward without the authorities involved, just like DeVries did.  The FBI couldn't get involved; they weren't invited so any information coming through them couldn't be used.   Klye couldn't go through the ALE, they covered up the evidence.  I can't imagine his frustration at this point.

It saddens me to read his trust was broken, especially among people he felt he could trust enough to share this information with.  Was it the right thing to do, obviously not.  Kyle is young and has many life's lessons to learn, this being one of them. 
 
My hope is that putting Kyle's information on an open forum hasn't hurt the case in anyway.   

We need to remain focused and stop the infighting.  We are all here for the same purpose.....to find answers for Natalee and her family.

Pita - I would agree with you that Kyle is young and has many life's lessons to learn if he hadn't been warned in the VERY BEGINNING.

Kyle is highly intelligent but if he's that naive then he has NO BUSINESS dealing with sensitive information because he has NO CLUE.

Who warned him?  Yes, I'd imagine Kyle is very intelligent.  It seems many at a private site were dealing with sensitive information besides him.  Do they not have a clue either?  And what makes it right to post sensitive information on a public forum if it is relevant to an ongoing missing person's case?

Good question Pita.

Any and all investigative evidence should be turned over to the proper authorities, in this case, the FBI and/or Justice Department.


PRIVATE EYE POSTS 1-01 12-30  3:50  PM
What would you do if you were Beth and a body in a crab trap is found?
Turn it over to the Aruban authorities?
Turn it over to the FBI?
Closure vs Risk of magically turning blood into chocolate