Natalee Case Discussion #783 12/6/08 - 12/8/08

[Pita]

Kyle has had three weeks to post his side - he hides. I have no respect for someone who hides pics, tries to sell them, lies about it, jerks everyone around, and says the family saw everything.

In my opinion, whatever Kyles side is, it cant be explained rationally or it would have been three weeks ago.

My question is if the pictures and information was SO SENSITIVE to the FBI why would Kyle post them on the INTERNET in the first place.  THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PRIVATE FORUM.

I have a thought on all of this and it's contrary to what most feel.  JMO based on what I have been reading here....

Due to jurisdiction and cover-up issues, I'm assuming the FBI was not "invited" to participate in this water search and Kyle knew this.  Kyle had his suspicions of corruption within the ALE himself.  He covertly took pictures of the evidence within the trap with the ROV in the event of a cover-up.

At some point he must have been invited to this "private site", the Freebirds, I guess, which he thought was a confidential place to discuss information.  He shared his suspicions of the pictures with people there he came to trust who knew more about the history of this case than he did.  He was trying to put the pictures in perspective to figure out what his next move would be.  Until he came to a conclusion, he didn't share the pics with the family or the FBI.

With regard to a so called documentary, maybe they thought it was their only alternative to reveal what was found in the trap.  It might be the only way to bring evidence forward without the authorities involved, just like DeVries did.  The FBI couldn't get involved; they weren't invited so any information coming through them couldn't be used.   Klye couldn't go through the ALE, they covered up the evidence.  I can't imagine his frustration at this point.

It saddens me to read his trust was broken, especially among people he felt he could trust enough to share this information with.  Was it the right thing to do, obviously not.  Kyle is young and has many life's lessons to learn, this being one of them. 
 
My hope is that putting Kyle's information on an open forum hasn't hurt the case in anyway.   

We need to remain focused and stop the infighting.  We are all here for the same purpose.....to find answers for Natalee and her family.

withholding of evidence of a crime is illegal, intentionally trying to sell the photos for personal gain is a crime, I think, maybe the frog is wrong. 


From Kyle: "I have not given anything to the FBI since the pictures and statements from Dec 29th"

Kyle: "From Kyle: May 8, 2008: "I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal."

Kyle says to strike a deal.  I don't see where it says for his personal gain.  Could he have been looking to sell the rights to the pictures for a documentary to reveal the coverup, similar to what Peter DeVries did with Joran's confession?

Kermit, since you admitted to working on criminal cases in the past, maybe you can answer this question.  IIRC, the evidence was collected in Aruban waters and is under Aruban jurisdiction.  From what I have seen in this case, withholding of evidence is obviously not a crime under Aruban law; in fact it seems like they welcome it.        Here in America withholding evidence is a crime.  Would this fall under Aruban or US jurisdiction then? 

Also, in a prior post Kyle said he gave the information to the FBI and the family.   Is there a time limit on bringing evidence forward?

[snoopy]

There appears to be some kind of power struggle going on.  I'd really like to know how others that were members of the "private" forum feel about Kermit's posts.  Seems there are some that are feeling betrayed by Kyle and others that feel betrayed by Kermit.  Personally, I don't know what to believe.

About the cage and the pics.  It looks to me that there very wll may have been human remains in that cage, who's remains I don't know.  What happened to the evidence from the cage I don't know.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PRIVATE FORUM.  Information always leaks out, people always get mad.  That is why we have no private areas at SM.

The original ROV images ... the six that Kyle sent to the FBI and ... then passed on to Dave Holloway were posted in a private internet forum by his wife.  However ... the ROV images did not remain there.  As Klaas said, "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PRIVATE FORUM".  Falling outs occur all the time and ... private no longer is private.

The recently ROV images that the Aruban were not given an opportunity to destroy ... images that were not among the six that Kyle originally sent to the FBI .. were sent in an email to Kermit by Kyle.  Also ... Kyle shared his concerns and observations with Kermit in email communications ... concerns and observations which implied that everything taking place aboad the Persistence was not about justice for Natalee Holloway.

Apparently ... according to Kermit ... once the search has ended ... Kyle's initial intentions were honorable.  He intended to share everything shared with Kermit ... observations, concerns and unrevealed ROV images ... with the FBI and the family of Natalee Holloway.  At this point in time ...  Kermit was quiet regarding all the Kyle had shared with him.

However ... somewhere along the line Kyle had a change of heart and ... rather than contacting the FBI and Natalee's family with his concerns, observations and ROV images ... he made the decision to make a deal by contacting major networks.  He would not back down and ... this is why ... rather than being a party to the apparent Persistance coverup ... Kermit contacted the FBI ... Natalee's family and shared his knowledge.  Only then did he post all her had been privied to by Kyle on the SM forum.

I for one am thankful.  I made a one time substantial donation through TES very early on to the planned search endeavor.  I believe that entitles me to be informed if maybe ... just maybe ... I was supporting a search and destroy evidence mission ... a mission where there was collaboration with those who have put a family through a H--- on Earth by protecting Joran and Paulus van der Sloot from participation in the events that encompasses the morning of May 30, 2005 ... the morning when an American citizen went missing and ... was never seen again.

IMO

Janet

Perfect

Post of the day

[Kermit]

Have a lovely Sunday everyone.
No matter if you believe or don't.
Have a good day.

[Hotshot]

OK ((edit))/Hope it is time to reveal you.  You so called lawyer of ((edit)) take down.....If you are so good, then why havent you found Mr. Schafers home listed here  http://www.har.com/HomeValue/dispSoldDetail.cfm?APN=494800000018000&MLNUM=4956927#  you tell me he needs money for some oil endever...  And if this is his, I'd hate to see what Silvettis looks like.  Just because you were in a Whitehouse take down, does not give you the know how, and the real truths.  what it does make you, is a person who gloats over what she has done, but the sad thing is, none of it is whole truths.  if you want to show an email, you need to show the whole thing, not just what you want people to see.  i have seen the real emails.  And I am big enough not to post them as you did.  Hey does it make you feel good to post that BestBuddy paid my meals too?  That right there should show to people how low you'd go, to prove points..... Does Red, know how you called him a glory hound in your private site T4N?  Oh wait, thats right, expose the me and Ringo thing too.  Like I had anything to do with that.  Wow girl, you used to be nice, what happened?  Maybe you should clear that one up too.  I am done with you.  Expose me if it makes you feel like a woman, nothing anyone hasn't seen before. .  

[AZLady]

Have a lovely Sunday everyone.
No matter if you believe or don't.
Have a good day.

Bye, Kermit.  And, thanks for your never-ending patience and your dedication to Natalee's memory.

[caesu]

Much needed

While the latest sounds coming out of the Dutch Parliament may once again throw a monkey wrench into the process of constitutional change, it appears the accompanying debt relief is well on track. Already an amount of 203 million euros has been placed on an account at the Central Bank to deal with payments in arrears.

The importance of this financial aspect should not be underestimated. When people, businesses and other entities dealing with the public sector are paid either very late or not at all, public confidence in government, already low because of incidents and scandals involving Antillean politicians over the years, drops even more. Payment of these old bills, along with funds for the Social Economic Initiatives, should help stimulate the economy on the islands considerably and increase willingness to do business with government. Combined with the taking over of 70 per cent of the loan and interest payments by the Netherlands, the financial injection should help provide much needed relief for both governments and the private sector.

While it is not directly related to debt relief, the extra funding made available for children’s homes through AMFO is partly the result of visits by Dutch delegations. In that sense the intensive contact between The Hague and the islands resulting from the talks has indeed already helped open certain doors.


The question of what will happen with the debt relief if no agreement can be reached on the constitutional changes in view of the Second Chamber’s position should not even be entertained. Without that relief the islands are likely to end up sliding into a social-economic crisis that will ultimately have consequences for the entire Kingdom; among other things, a possible new “exodus” of Antilleans to the Netherlands.

It is important that both the Dutch Government and Parliament keep in mind that the crisis in public finances the Antilles faces has little to do with the proposed constitutional changes and would have to be addressed eventually anyway. The mistake should not be made to delay this relief in any way because of problems with the constitutional changes.

http://www.thedailyherald.com/news/daily/l172/edit172.html

a threat of economic refugees if the Dutch don't give them debt relief.
this blackmailing is directed at the debates in Parliament coming week. no doubt about that.
this is more concerning Curaçao & St.Maarten.

but Aruba is also subject to constitutional changes as to their Justice Department.
their financial situation is healthier compared to the Antilles.
but they also used blackmail to get the revenues for the Plant Hotel (and to get the Common Court relocated to Aruba).

i worry a bit that Aruba can force their demands through because the problems of Curaçao/St.Maarten are perceived to be greater and more important.

[Sue]

I admit I am very behind here.. I am the prayer not the talker
But If Something Of Natalee was found in that cage
Why would Beth be any part of that Bull crud story that Greta was just trying to sell
Beth could have told Greta to take a flying leap
If Natalee was in the cage I guess there would be NO possible way she could ahve been sold
with this latest version of Jorans goo is a spreading

[Magnolia]

Okay it's been interesting.

I'm off to find a fly.

AND I'm hoping Mister DANA will play my song!

 

Kermit, please tell us the other half.  I don't want to
hear Hotshot tell it.

[AZLady]

Hotshot, you have stepped over the line. 

[crazybabyborg]

Hotshot, you have stepped over the line. 

I agree.

[klaasend]

I admit I am very behind here.. I am the prayer not the talker
But If Something Of Natalee was found in that cage
Why would Beth be any part of that Bull crud story that Greta was just trying to sell
Beth could have told Greta to take a flying leap
If Natalee was in the cage I guess there would be NO possible way she could ahve been sold
with this latest version of Jorans goo is a spreading

Personally I don't believe Greta or Natalee's family believe Joran's latest story.  I believe it's all a chess game. 

[blah]

66 Natalee Holloway / LCD Archive / Re: Natalee Case Discussion #781 12/3/08 -  on: December 04, 2008, 06:57:40 PM 
Quote from: Elaine on December 04, 2008, 06:47:33 PM
Ok, Ive been lurking and reading. I would just like to ask one question to Kermit and Hotshot.
So do you think part of natalee WAS found in that cage. Because it is sure sounding like that is what you are both saying, just in different ways. TIA

According to the experts, YES she was in the cage.

Kermit, according to what experts was Natalee in the cage?

Please read back, I answered this question.

No you didnt,  Unless you were alluding to the FBI

 Please re-back blah. I answered the post by johann.
I believe I answered it as best as I can.

Ok i think i see it now

[Pita]

Pita  I understand what you are saying, but in this particular case nothing should have been kept from Beth.  She has proven time and time again that she can keep quiet and not reveal information that would have hurt the case.

This is really what angered me the most was that Beth was not informed completely about every little detail.  She had a right to know, and she should have been trusted.  I'm afraid that the decisions that were made were done for monitary gain.

If Kyle would come back here and explain his side I would listen.  I took the blinders off many years ago.

I would also like to say that I applaud the work the Freebirds have done.  They have done some amazing work.

What I don't understand is why the Persistence search had to be so secretive.  I don't see why that was necessary.  We already knew that Aruba wouldn't do the right thing.

It is my opinion that some motives were not honorable.

Why was there even a question about giving all of the information to Beth?

Why wasn't ALL of the information given to the FBI immediately?  Why?

It's time to take the gloves off and reveal what is known.  I truly don't believe at this point that any information revealed will prevent justice.

Snoopy, thank you and I respect your response.

[Blue Moon]

There appears to be some kind of power struggle going on.  I'd really like to know how others that were members of the "private" forum feel about Kermit's posts.  Seems there are some that are feeling betrayed by Kyle and others that feel betrayed by Kermit.  Personally, I don't know what to believe.

About the cage and the pics.  It looks to me that there very wll may have been human remains in that cage, who's remains I don't know.  What happened to the evidence from the cage I don't know.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PRIVATE FORUM.  Information always leaks out, people always get mad.  That is why we have no private areas at SM.

The original ROV images ... the six that Kyle sent to the FBI and ... then passed on to Dave Holloway were posted in a private internet forum by his wife.  However ... the ROV images did not remain there.  As Klaas said, "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PRIVATE FORUM".  Falling outs occur all the time and ... private no longer is private.

The recently ROV images that the Aruban were not given an opportunity to destroy ... images that were not among the six that Kyle originally sent to the FBI .. were sent in an email to Kermit by Kyle.  Also ... Kyle shared his concerns and observations with Kermit in email communications ... concerns and observations which implied that everything taking place aboad the Persistence was not about justice for Natalee Holloway.

Apparently ... according to Kermit ... once the search has ended ... Kyle's initial intentions were honorable.  He intended to share everything shared with Kermit ... observations, concerns and unrevealed ROV images ... with the FBI and the family of Natalee Holloway.  At this point in time ...  Kermit was quiet regarding all the Kyle had shared with him.

However ... somewhere along the line Kyle had a change of heart and ... rather than contacting the FBI and Natalee's family with his concerns, observations and ROV images ... he made the decision to make a deal by contacting major networks.  He would not back down and ... this is why ... rather than being a party to the apparent Persistance coverup ... Kermit contacted the FBI ... Natalee's family and shared his knowledge.  Only then did he post all her had been privied to by Kyle on the SM forum.

I for one am thankful.  I made a one time substantial donation through TES very early on to the planned search endeavor.  I believe that entitles me to be informed if maybe ... just maybe ... I was supporting a search and destroy evidence mission ... a mission where there was collaboration with those who have put a family through a H--- on Earth by protecting Joran and Paulus van der Sloot from participation in the events that encompasses the morning of May 30, 2005 ... the morning when an American citizen went missing and ... was never seen again.

IMO

Janet

I made a contribution also when the call went out. Do not regret it but you have summed it all up perfectly.  Natalee and therefore her mother and father deserved  better than they got.  WE tried to warn him when asked but he did not listen.

[Tamikosmom]

So I must choose

Believe you or Beth and Dave

I have no choice?

I do.  My heart goes out to both Dave and Beth.  They both have lost a daughter whom they both love very much.  They both have been put a H--- on Earth by the "powers that be" in Aruba who are involved in a corrupt investigation required to protect their own.

However ... Dave Holloway's philosophy tend to imply that working closely with those within the Aruban administration involved in the coverup ... working closely with internet  posters whose vested Aruban interest implies that justice must not prevail for his precious daughter  ... will somehow provide the answers he so desperately desires.

Beth says it how it is.  Justice for her daugher is not going to come out of Aruba.

johan ... that is  that is the way I thing. 

IMO

Janet

+++++++++

Beth Holloway
OPRAH WINFREY SHOW
January 27, 2008

Oprah: So the case, they've said the case is closed, is it closed for you?

Beth: No, it's not closed for us, we've never really relied on an investigative approach to find an answer to Natalee. I think what we've relied on more heavily is that at any given moment something unexpected could happen and we really feel anyone could talk at any moment

http://www2.oprah.com/world/politics/slide/20080116/politics_284_203.jhtml


The Jonesboro Sun
January 29, 2007

Twitty recalled the first days after her daughter's disappearance and the actions of the Aruban government.

"We did everything we could in looking for her.  There was a government coverup, and it has been documented," Twitty contended.

http://www.jonesborosun.com/story.php?ID=25809


'Scarborough Country' for Oct. 21st
updated 1:46 p.m. PT, Sun., Oct. 23, 2005

HOLLOWAY TWITTY: They never—they never wanted to implicate these three young men.  They never wanted to implicate them from the beginning. And there is a list of reasons, you know, why we know that is true.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9796403/from/RL.2/


'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for December 1
updated 7:37 a.m. PT, Fri., Dec. 2, 2005

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S MOTHER: Well, of course, it's very frustrating. You know, the entire investigation, that's all we've had is frustration coming out of the officials from Aruba.  You know, evidence—you know when evidence is gathered and lost or evidence is never gathered when it's supposed to be, just (INAUDIBLE) the primary residence of Paulus Van Der Sloot was never searched —I mean, you know, it just can't help but raise all the questions of—and leave us frustrated.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10295536/


Beth Twitty is part of the investigation and owes Aruba some explanations
According to Commissioner Dompig
A.M. Digital
10/26/2005

This mother can tell us about her last contact with her daughter. Unfortunately she continues to bash Aruba out there, and does not want to return to help with the investigation. On the other hand the investigating team has good contacts with the father, Dave Holloway, who is helping with the investigation.

http://getagripmonkey.blogspot.com/2005_10_23_archive.html

[AZLady]

I have found Kermit's pictures and postings very interesting.  I am not shocked by the implications as it shows that Aruba continues to coverup Natalee's disappearance as they began to do in June 2005.  It still goes on.  That's what Kermit's pictures and emails tell me.  This is my own conclusion, drawn from what I've read and seen and deduced.

On the other hand, ldstlou and Hotshot have been trying for days to turn this discussion into a personal attack on Kermit.  I don't know why, but I don't like it.  Discuss the pictures and postings, but stop obfuscating and bashing Kermit.  For one thing, it won't work as the Monkeys see what you are doing.  For another thing, it won't keep us from discussing the pics and posts if that's what we want to do.  Lastly, it really reflects badly on you both, and if you care for Natalee's memory, you will not sully the place where those who love her search for the truth.

[snoopy]

It's time to put the cards on the table

[Keepthefaith]

Why is Kyle so against bringin forth his side here??Kermit agreed to discuss it here on the forum when this all began.Kyle didn't want to??That concerns me personally.If he 's sharing this information with others on a private forum is SM not worthy of this  ELITIST group.From reading what i've read some want to CONTROL the information.Why??????????

[AZLady]

It's time to put the cards on the table

Yup.  How are you, Snoopy?  I think the cards are out--face up.  At least I can see them perfectly.  I've drawn my own conclusions.

[Sue]

I admit I am very behind here.. I am the prayer not the talker
But If Something Of Natalee was found in that cage
Why would Beth be any part of that Bull crud story that Greta was just trying to sell
Beth could have told Greta to take a flying leap
If Natalee was in the cage I guess there would be NO possible way she could ahve been sold
with this latest version of Jorans goo is a spreading

Personally I don't believe Greta or Natalee's family believe Joran's latest story.  I believe it's all a chess game. 

Well as soon as I started watching I knew it was crock Of goo he needed money and greta
got sucked in hook line and sinker.. The only thing I believe that was honest what Joran said
was that daddy paid people Off... WHY WHY would Joran go on national TV and throw is daddy under the bus
if there wasnt some truth to that... I think MO  daddy and mommy cut him off and Joran is throwing his weight around
with what he knows to keep in daddys deep pockets