Natalee Case Discussion #783 12/6/08 - 12/8/08

[snoopy]

Here's what I want to know.  If the email from private eye to Kyle occured on March 20th what took Kyle so long to be concerned?  Was this after he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar?  Did he get caught with his hand in the cookie jar?

I'm just curious.

Snoopy,
That wasn't an email.  It was posted right here on the forum.
One could tell that Kyle was taken aback by PI's mention of
the denim and the baggies, neither of which was seen in the
pictures that Robin had let out.  Kyle knew then that PI
had seen his secret pictures.

Thank you Magnolia.  My mistake.

[Hotshot]

Kermit I asked this:

who are experts

would you prefer not to answer?

Sorry johann I was trying my best to answer the other questions from way back and still can't get to them.
BUT to answer YOUR question, at this time, the FBI does have the information as well as Beth and Dave and John Q. Kelly.

The information about the experts (names etc .)  or what there was in the cage ?

ALL INFORMATION was handed over to the individuals I listed.

I know that!
By whom? You? If you single handedly solved the conspiracy, than I am assuming you turned over the info to the family and FBI?

Obfuscation.

The point is it wasn't Kyle who turned it over.

The point is what Kermit refuses to print is......It had already been sent, there was NO need to resend it!  

[texasmom]

Whatever is shaking in this box next to me is about to get the stuffing knocked out of it. lol

[AZLady]

"The effort was superb, but the game was fixed."

This says it all.  The search was a valiant effort, no matter the motivations of those involved.  However, the "game" (the recovery of Natalee's remains) was never going to happen, no way, no how.

[Keepthefaith]

Kermit I asked this:

who are experts

would you prefer not to answer?

Sorry johann I was trying my best to answer the other questions from way back and still can't get to them.
BUT to answer YOUR question, at this time, the FBI does have the information as well as Beth and Dave and John Q. Kelly.

The information about the experts (names etc .)  or what there was in the cage ?

ALL INFORMATION was handed over to the individuals I listed.

I know that!
By whom? You? If you single handedly solved the conspiracy, than I am assuming you turned over the info to the family and FBI?

Obfuscation.

The point is it wasn't Kyle who turned it over.

The point is what Kermit refuses to print is......It had already been sent, there was NO need to resend it!  

Kyle can answer all these questions correct???

[Pita]

Kyle has had three weeks to post his side - he hides. I have no respect for someone who hides pics, tries to sell them, lies about it, jerks everyone around, and says the family saw everything.

In my opinion, whatever Kyles side is, it cant be explained rationally or it would have been three weeks ago.

could be though that it is a no win situation for him and so he has chosen not to advance it.

Lisa, this is not about winning or losing THIS IS ABOUT THE TRUTH - NO MATTER WHERE IT LEADS

Rob, I don't have a problem with the truth. I want it as bad as anyone else here. I am just saying, it appears to me that kermit was privy to some information that the rest of us did not have access to. She chose to bring it to SM. I am not saying that is bad!!! No one better to investigate than the Monkeys. It's here and it's being discussed. but kermit doesn't have to bash kyle in the process!! It appears kyle gave her access to that info to begim with!!

Bottom line...kermit did not not "uncover" some great big conspiracy, she brought over information that was being discussed elsewhere. lets call a spade a spade is all I am saying. No need to tear apart Kyle to do that.

Please give it a rest.......You've made Your point....We have more important things to discuss without all of this hoopla....going on.....I mean this in the nicest way.....Seriously......

did you read my post at all? There was no big discovery here. She copied and posted from a forum...duuuuh!!! Great detective work!!

And as far as I am concerned...we all knew that the aruban authories were the ones who collected the evidence. Where's the conspiracy? Once again...the arubans gathered the evidence. What they did with it after no one knows but the aruban authorites. We can only guess and speculate.

I wasn't aware of the Aruban authorities hiring the Persistence to search for Natalee, or of any funding that the Aruban authorities provided for this search for Natalee.  If the Persistence mission was only intended to provide every find from the mission to the Aruban authorities, we should have all been aware of that!  We should not have been ASKED what they should do with what they found!  They obviously didn't care what our responses were to that question, because if they indeed let them leave with every bit of evidence from that cage; that was the intent from the beginning.  If it wasn't what made them decide that was the RIGHT thing to do?  Free meals and drinks at Hooters, free lodging?  I want to know what made them decide to trust giving ALL of the evidence to the Aruban authorities!  I still hope I find out they didn't, when and if anyone decides we might have some kind of right to know this!

Do you think the crew of the Persistence had any say in that? They were in aruban waters. arubans were calling the shots. Do you remember how many times Tim Miller wanted to go back and search and they said no. Could it be that it was out of their hands?

I'm sorry but I don't agree.  When dealing with shady  bas....ds you do whatcha gotta do.  They  (the Persistence)should have went down to that trap while videoing to protect the chain of command......investigated the trap........while documenting everything and then called in the Aruban authorities.  I would have also told their sorry asses that I had already gone down there....documented everything......taken a sample and now they can do whatever they want to.  Keep their feet to the fire and keep them honest.  They wouldn't have had a choice but to do the right thing.  But that wasn't done.  That's a shame and they should have known better.

I agree.
It's not like the RV Persistence, it's crew and it's owner didn't know about the Arubans, that is why they were called in!

December 30 Kyle says John definitely believed the Arubans at their every word when they said on Dec 30th that it was nothing case relevant

no shit sherlock...thats your big revelation?

Are you addressing me or Pita?

Now, now Kermit.  Why would ldstlou be addressing me?  I'm not even quoted in the above posts?       Did I ever tell you I like frog's legs!  LOL

[AZLady]

Okay, Pita, ldstlou, and Hotshot--you all have detention after school today.  The lesson will be on the characteristics of OBFUSCATION.  Please read back for a definition and examples.  You will all write the word and its definition 100 times on the chalk board.  Please do not notify us when you are finished.  Carry on, now.
 

[caesu]

Much needed

While the latest sounds coming out of the Dutch Parliament may once again throw a monkey wrench into the process of constitutional change, it appears the accompanying debt relief is well on track. Already an amount of 203 million euros has been placed on an account at the Central Bank to deal with payments in arrears.

The importance of this financial aspect should not be underestimated. When people, businesses and other entities dealing with the public sector are paid either very late or not at all, public confidence in government, already low because of incidents and scandals involving Antillean politicians over the years, drops even more. Payment of these old bills, along with funds for the Social Economic Initiatives, should help stimulate the economy on the islands considerably and increase willingness to do business with government. Combined with the taking over of 70 per cent of the loan and interest payments by the Netherlands, the financial injection should help provide much needed relief for both governments and the private sector.

While it is not directly related to debt relief, the extra funding made available for children’s homes through AMFO is partly the result of visits by Dutch delegations. In that sense the intensive contact between The Hague and the islands resulting from the talks has indeed already helped open certain doors.


The question of what will happen with the debt relief if no agreement can be reached on the constitutional changes in view of the Second Chamber’s position should not even be entertained. Without that relief the islands are likely to end up sliding into a social-economic crisis that will ultimately have consequences for the entire Kingdom; among other things, a possible new “exodus” of Antilleans to the Netherlands.

It is important that both the Dutch Government and Parliament keep in mind that the crisis in public finances the Antilles faces has little to do with the proposed constitutional changes and would have to be addressed eventually anyway. The mistake should not be made to delay this relief in any way because of problems with the constitutional changes.

http://www.thedailyherald.com/news/daily/l172/edit172.html

a threat of economic refugees if the Dutch don't give them debt relief.
this blackmailing is directed at the debates in Parliament coming week. no doubt about that.
this is more concerning Curaçao & St.Maarten.

but Aruba is also subject to constitutional changes as to their Justice Department.
their financial situation is healthier compared to the Antilles.
but they also used blackmail to get the revenues for the Plant Hotel (and to get the Common Court relocated to Aruba).

i worry a bit that Aruba can force their demands through because the problems of Curaçao/St.Maarten are perceived to be greater and more important.

Thanks, Caesu.

The criminals running Aruba are more financially successful than Caracao, St. Maarten, and so perceived to be in better standing? 

The Hague is not looking very good to the rest of the world if there is no concern that the Aruban minister of justice is pointing out corruption in his own department, and doing nothing about it.  And now blackmailing the Netherlands with threats of Antillean exodus to the homeland? 

I predict an even more bleak economic future for Aruba and the Antilles if the Dutch parliament does not step in.

The poo-poo is just beginning to hit the propeller!

yes it's insane.
but i am hoping it's going to hit the fan soon. maybe the coming week... fingers crossed.
but i hoped that too right after the Peter R. de Vries tapes beginning this year.
and nothing really happened. so i am try to refrain from getting too excited.

but when i read about all this corruption.
i am getting quite outraged and i just can't believe the sh*t hasn't hit the fan yet.

the situation on St.Maarten and Curaçao is very bad too!
they only haven't had a 'Joran-type' there - or they covered it up succesfully so no-one even knows.
an American women disappeared there too by the way.
http://letacordes.com/

sites in English about corruption on...

St.Maarten:
http://sxmprivateeye.com/

Curaçao:
http://www.curassow.com/2dvrc/stateofaffairs/circus/2008.html

and about Aruba doing financially fine: their tourism 'bubble' is about to burst with the worldwide recession.

[snoopy]

Whatever is shaking in this box next to me is about to get the stuffing knocked out of it. lol

I'm on the edge I tell ya.  lol

[snoopy]

"The effort was superb, but the game was fixed."

This says it all.  The search was a valiant effort, no matter the motivations of those involved.  However, the "game" (the recovery of Natalee's remains) was never going to happen, no way, no how.

Exactly.

Pita  you bad monkey. lol

[Hotshot]

Kermit I asked this:

who are experts

would you prefer not to answer?

Sorry johann I was trying my best to answer the other questions from way back and still can't get to them.
BUT to answer YOUR question, at this time, the FBI does have the information as well as Beth and Dave and John Q. Kelly.

The information about the experts (names etc .)  or what there was in the cage ?

ALL INFORMATION was handed over to the individuals I listed.

I know that!
By whom? You? If you single handedly solved the conspiracy, than I am assuming you turned over the info to the family and FBI?

Obfuscation.

The point is it wasn't Kyle who turned it over.

The point is what Kermit refuses to print is......It had already been sent, there was NO need to resend it!  

Kyle can answer all these questions correct???

He has!!!  Kermit just refuses to post it!

[Frank]

Why not assume it was Natalee in the trap?

then what? Did that happen on the 10th day, the 9th, or when? Why did van der sloot need 10 days from his friend, van der straaten?

If she was already off the island, why so much time to provide cover?

There couldn't be much evidence on the beach? But there must have been evidence somewhere that needed cleaning up.

We still haven't found the crime scene. The trap is not the crime scene.

I still think Croes's comments are more valuable than the contents of the trap. Suppose you could prove Natalee was at the VDS house for 3 days, would that change your opinion?

Why would a police chief and prosecutor engage is serious crimes just to have Natalee taken there? With that much time, I think they know she can't be recovered.

[texasmom]

Kermit I asked this:

who are experts

would you prefer not to answer?

Sorry johann I was trying my best to answer the other questions from way back and still can't get to them.
BUT to answer YOUR question, at this time, the FBI does have the information as well as Beth and Dave and John Q. Kelly.

The information about the experts (names etc .)  or what there was in the cage ?

ALL INFORMATION was handed over to the individuals I listed.

I know that!
By whom? You? If you single handedly solved the conspiracy, than I am assuming you turned over the info to the family and FBI?

Obfuscation.

The point is it wasn't Kyle who turned it over.

The point is what Kermit refuses to print is......It had already been sent, there was NO need to resend it!  

Kyle can answer all these questions correct???

He has!!!  Kermit just refuses to post it!

KYLE'S fingers are not broken or removed to my knowledge.  If he wants to refute anything that's been posted here....HE NEEDS TO COME HERE AND DO IT HIMSELF!  JMO

[2NJSons_Mom]

I will have to take a break and come back in a while.  No insult or disrespect intended but it feels like this:

[AZLady]

So, Hotshot, if you are so convinced that Kyle has answered all these questions and Kermit refuses to tell us this, then this implies that you know that Kyle has answered these questions and you know his answers.

Are you going to tell us Kyle's answers?  Oh, that's right--you would never reveal a confidence shared in the ultra-secret, super-duper private forum, right? 

Bullshit, to quote Tim Miller. 

If you have allegiances to a "private forum" that you can't share here, then why waste your time and fingertips typing to a bunch of Monkeys who just are not trustworthy enough to be privy to the insider, super-secret private info?

And, my friend, above is what is called an example of OBFUSCATION.  It is the last example I will post in this forum.  Those who do not learn the lesson are doomed to be ignored, forever more.

[Pita]

Kermit I asked this:

who are experts

would you prefer not to answer?

Sorry johann I was trying my best to answer the other questions from way back and still can't get to them.
BUT to answer YOUR question, at this time, the FBI does have the information as well as Beth and Dave and John Q. Kelly.

The information about the experts (names etc .)  or what there was in the cage ?

ALL INFORMATION was handed over to the individuals I listed.

So the fbi, Dave and Beth know more than we know?
Or am i wrong ?

The information was not given to Beth nor Dave nor the FBI by Kyle. He admitted he withheld it.
FOR MONTHS after his return from the search in Aruba wherein he had photos and information.

From Kyle: I have not given anything to the FBI since the pictures and statements from Dec 29th

From Kyle: May 8, 2008: "I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal."

Recently, the information has been given to Beth, Dave and the FBI.

Kermit, this is what confuses me.  According to private eye's (Beth's brother) post of March 20, 2008, he was aware of the alledged blue denim, so this indicates the family knew about the pictures in March.  Was private eye a member of the private site?  Could this be a reason Kyle felt comfortable discussing the pictures since a family member was privy to the discussion?   According to his post, he did bring it to Beth's attention at that time.   

private eye Reply #448 on: March 20, 2008, 02:18:50 PM  :
snipped...

Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received. I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made, and reminded her that the press release said that the material did not match her blouse. I also pointed out that in the December 30 photo there appeared to be a skull and in the January 7, it did not look at all like a skull. But I did think I noticed a second object in one of the zip lock bags that could possibly be the object that resembled a skull, possibly. I am a little amazed that the denim looks remarkably NOT deteriorated. Mostly I was trying to pique her interest to get her to contact the appropriate people. I think Dave worked closely with the owner of the boat, so he may well have already done this. But I know Beth appreciates the heads up, as do I. You are a good man. I did tell her my main concern was that you were concerned, and that I respect and trust your judgment enough for her to investigate this. Thanks.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg367178#msg367178

I believe that this was addressed by SS yesterday.
Kermit sent what he had from Kyle to Beth in March.
PI saw what Beth had and posted here about it.
That was why Kyle was surprised that PI had seen the
pictures and asked that PI email him privately.

Thank you, Magnolia.  I must have missed SS's post.   But after seeing the pictures, even if sent through Kermit in March, Beth would know they came from somebody on the Persistence.  And, I would think Kermit would have shared that with her at the time. JMO

[Keepthefaith]

Kermit I asked this:

who are experts

would you prefer not to answer?

Sorry johann I was trying my best to answer the other questions from way back and still can't get to them.
BUT to answer YOUR question, at this time, the FBI does have the information as well as Beth and Dave and John Q. Kelly.

The information about the experts (names etc .)  or what there was in the cage ?

ALL INFORMATION was handed over to the individuals I listed.

I know that!
By whom? You? If you single handedly solved the conspiracy, than I am assuming you turned over the info to the family and FBI?

Obfuscation.

The point is it wasn't Kyle who turned it over.

The point is what Kermit refuses to print is......It had already been sent, there was NO need to resend it!  

Kyle can answer all these questions correct???

He has!!!  Kermit just refuses to post it!

Why should Kermit post it?Kyle is welcome to post here anytime correct?"If" the FBI,as well as Dave and Beth were given ALL stuff by Kyle before anyone else did.Who cares what Kermit is posting??So either Kyle is punishing SM by not posting the TRUTH,and or he's concerned with what is being brought forth.The need to not speak for oneself personally is typically a legal one.I'll be the first to eat crow when necessary!!

[Magnolia]

Pita,
According to what PI said, Beth was reluctant to look at
the pictures.  I can only imagine why she was reluctant.
I can only surmise, from what I have observed, that Beth
had sense enough to know where the pictures originated.

[Helen Back]

Quote Caesu:

yes it's insane.
but i am hoping it's going to hit the fan soon. maybe the coming week... fingers crossed.
but i hoped that too right after the Peter R. de Vries tapes beginning this year.
and nothing really happened. so i am try to refrain from getting too excited.

but when i read about all this corruption.
i am getting quite outraged and i just can't believe the sh*t hasn't hit the fan yet.

the situation on St.Maarten and Curaçao is very bad too!
they only haven't had a 'Joran-type' there - or they covered it up succesfully so no-one even knows.
an American women disappeared there too by the way.
http://letacordes.com/

sites in English about corruption on...

St.Maarten:
http://sxmprivateeye.com/

Curaçao:
http://www.curassow.com/2dvrc/stateofaffairs/circus/2008.html

and about Aruba doing financially fine: their tourism 'bubble' is about to burst with the worldwide recession.


Thanks, Caesu.

I'll keep my fingers crossed as well.  I don't imagine that the Dutch Parliament will care what an American has to say about it all, but it may help for them to know we are paying attention.

Yes, terrible case of Leta Cordes, there is a thread devoted to her disappearance here.  I believe her husband has been arrested in that case.

The message is, if you get invited to the Caribbean, DON'T GO!  It means someone is trying to get rid of your azz!

[caesu]

KINGDOM COUNCIL OF MINISTERS AGREE TO KINGDOM ACT COMMON COURT OF JUSTICE.
Saturday, 06 December 2008 01:04

The bill of law is based on consensus between the Netherlands and the Netherlands Antilles regarding the new political relations. With regard to Aruba it is based on the competency to lay down rules to guarantee legal certainty by Kingdom Act. For to such end the Common Court of Justice is indispensable.

http://www.smn-news.com/st-maarten-st-martin-news/711-kingdom-council-of-ministers-agree-to-kingdom-act-common-court-of-justice.html

i posted this before.
but here it is in English.

last Friday a Kingdom Act was passed without consensus from Aruba.
just consensus between the Netherlands and the Antilles.
and it mentions their ability 'to lay down rules to guarantee legal certainty by (further) Kingdom Act(s)'.

i hope this is a sign of things to come.
but for sure Rudy Croes isn't happy with this, that without their consensus the other countries did lay down rules for Aruba.
they passed one Kingdom Act without Aruba's consensus, and in the press release the 'warn' they could do that again 'to guarantee legal certainty', with specifically pointing at Aruba.

note: Kingdom consists of three countries: Netherlands, Aruba, Netherlands Antilles.