Natalee Case Discussion #783 12/6/08 - 12/8/08

[Keepthefaith]

So the fbi, Dave and Beth know more than we know?
Or am i wrong ?

The information was not given to Beth nor Dave nor the FBI by Kyle. He admitted he withheld it.
FOR MONTHS after his return from the search in Aruba wherein he had photos and information.

From Kyle: I have not given anything to the FBI since the pictures and statements from Dec 29th

From Kyle: May 8, 2008: "I've talked with Peter Shouten numerous times back in February. He hasn't seen anything but knows about the blue fabrics. DeVries and Endemol was interested in purchasing the ROV footage and I was working between them, ABC, and CBS to strike a deal."

Recently, the information has been given to Beth, Dave and the FBI.

Kermit, this is what confuses me.  According to private eye's (Beth's brother) post of March 20, 2008, he was aware of the alledged blue denim, so this indicates the family knew about the pictures in March.  Was private eye a member of the private site?  Could this be a reason Kyle felt comfortable discussing the pictures since a family member was privy to the discussion?   According to his post, he did bring it to Beth's attention at that time.   

private eye Reply #448 on: March 20, 2008, 02:18:50 PM  :
snipped...

Kyle- I emailed Beth your concerns and have suggested to her that she contact the appropriate people on the Persistence, including yourself, and attempt to reconcile as best they can the material the crew saw recovered from the cage versus what they received. I specifically mentioned the blue denim and the fact that would be the material of which the skirt was made, and reminded her that the press release said that the material did not match her blouse. I also pointed out that in the December 30 photo there appeared to be a skull and in the January 7, it did not look at all like a skull. But I did think I noticed a second object in one of the zip lock bags that could possibly be the object that resembled a skull, possibly. I am a little amazed that the denim looks remarkably NOT deteriorated. Mostly I was trying to pique her interest to get her to contact the appropriate people. I think Dave worked closely with the owner of the boat, so he may well have already done this. But I know Beth appreciates the heads up, as do I. You are a good man. I did tell her my main concern was that you were concerned, and that I respect and trust your judgment enough for her to investigate this. Thanks.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg367178#msg367178

Pita ... does that following words of Kyle and Beth's brother imply to your that the Persistence search effort was about locating Natalee Holloways remains to bring about closure for the family or ... does it imply the undertaking was all about assisting in the Aruban ongoing agenda to destory all evidence that implicate Joran and Paulus van der Sloot in the happenings in the wee hours of May 30, 2005.

Janet

_____


ocean exploration
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -
« Reply #201 on: March 19, 2008, 08:21:47 PM »

We had little option other than to have the Aruban dive division recover the samples and bring them back under their care.  Remember we are Americans working in Aruban waters, subject to their laws, invitation, and blessing.  Our hands are tied for the most part. I personally was extremely uncomfortable with the chain of custody, being that we weren't a part of it, but I was powerless to do anything about it.  The samples were photographed in detail by one Aruban diver and the other two investigated the contents of the trap, the dimensions, the rigging, and what surrounded the trap.  From the video, it looked like they did a diligent and careful job with the samples and the underwater photography.  I don't know who has these pictures, but I must assume ALE.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg366857#msg366857

private eye (Beth Holloway's Brother)
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #746 4/4
« Reply #499 on: April 09, 2008, 12:39:50 AM »

If I understood Kyle correctly, and that would be that the Arubans retrieved and possessed all finds, not sharing anything with the crew, then that effort was a waste of time and effort. The only thing it could have accomplished was to locate additional evidence for the Arubans to destroy.  The effort was superb, but the game was fixed.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2769.msg372245;topicseen#msg372245


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #137 on: Today at 04:07:13 PM »

Kyle stated: "John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship."
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.120

Janet, IMO, I would say a little bit of both.  They were in Aruban waters and had to comply with Aruban law.  Once Kyle realized their hands were tied due to chain of custody, it appears Kyle did not trust them.  This is why he covertly took the pictures with the ROV to have some proof of what was in the trap in the event the Arubans were not forthright with the evidence (which it appears they weren't.)  What if he didn't take the pictures?  The family would have nothing.  This scenario was about finding Natalee.

On the other hand, being that the Arubans possessed all finds, private eye was correct in saying the effort was superb, but the game was fixed.  It was that way from the beginning.  Remember how the FBI was invited, then uninvited, when it came to interrogations of suspects and review of evidence.  Same thing with the Persistence endeavor.

I wish they would have sent a diver down to sample the evidence before the Aruban team came in to remove it.  Who knows, maybe they did.

Pita,

With all due respect, the Aruban authorities themselves do not obey Aruban law, the crew of the Persistence didn't have to either if their real mission was to bring Natalee home.

Also, do the specially selected smart people solving the case in their secret forum really believe that the FBI only goes where they are invited? 

Why have undercover agents then? 

We're all over the globe where we're not invited.  Come on....don't expect us to believe that. 

If they didn't plan on getting any evidence before ALE could get it, then Silvetti & Shaefer could and should have worked with the FBI/State Dept/CIA before ever leaving American shores to get an undercover agent on that boat.  I hope they did and none of us know that.  If not, then I think it perhaps was not their sole purpose in going.

Furthermore, I can't imagine anyone with thinking abilities would actually believe that Kyle didn't know what to do with the pictures/footage and was helplessly frustrated.  Even if he didn't want to go to the FBI and didn't know how to contact Beth, he could have contacted JQK.  Doesn't take an oceanographer to figure that out.

JMO

If there was a FBI agent,and or covert operative so to speak.They'd already have had all the pictures,as well as footage regarding these dives.So this whole not given the pictures to the FBI wouldn't be an issue,But,it is!Why??

[Kat_Gram]

"Kyle stated: "John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship."
So a person in charge of the search for Natalee Holloway had no interest in it ?
Why / When did his sister come on the blogs asking for money to continue the search ?
No money for their R & D and decided to get the R & D done this way ?

[Keepthefaith]

Okay, Pita, ldstlou, and Hotshot--you all have detention after school today.  The lesson will be on the characteristics of OBFUSCATION.  Please read back for a definition and examples.  You will all write the word and its definition 100 times on the chalk board.  Please do not notify us when you are finished.  Carry on, now.
 

I'm not here to obfuscate the truth.  Just trying to make sense of it.  I don't appreciate your sarcasm.   Carry on.....

Kyle(OE) apparently could bring some of that here.NO????Maybe not??We'll never know unless he speaks for himself which,to this point,he's been unwilling to do.At SM anyways.Monkey's are inquisitive and do ask tough questions from time to time..

Maybe in time he will.  But I did read a post of his where he was asked by the FBI not to comment on confidential information.  I'm guessing this is why the silence. 

How does anyone know the FBI said that??It's kyle's word??So Kermit is disseminating confidential information regarding a federal case without approval?

[AZLady]

Pita,

With all due respect, the Aruban authorities themselves do not obey Aruban law, the crew of the Persistence didn't have to either if their real mission was to bring Natalee home.

Also, do the specially selected smart people solving the case in their secret forum really believe that the FBI only goes where they are invited? 

Why have undercover agents then? 

We're all over the globe where we're not invited.  Come on....don't expect us to believe that. 

If they didn't plan on getting any evidence before ALE could get it, then Silvetti & Shaefer could and should have worked with the FBI/State Dept/CIA before ever leaving American shores to get an undercover agent on that boat.  I hope they did and none of us know that.  If not, then I think it perhaps was not their sole purpose in going.

Furthermore, I can't imagine anyone with thinking abilities would actually believe that Kyle didn't know what to do with the pictures/footage and was helplessly frustrated.  Even if he didn't want to go to the FBI and didn't know how to contact Beth, he could have contacted JQK.  Doesn't take an oceanographer to figure that out.

JMO

Lifesong, this just makes all kinds of sense.   I wonder if Dave or Tim Miller insisted on an undercover FBI agent to be aboard the boat.  I hope so...

[Buckeye]

Okay, Pita, ldstlou, and Hotshot--you all have detention after school today.  The lesson will be on the characteristics of OBFUSCATION.  Please read back for a definition and examples.  You will all write the word and its definition 100 times on the chalk board.  Please do not notify us when you are finished.  Carry on, now.
 

I'm not here to obfuscate the truth.  Just trying to make sense of it.  I don't appreciate your sarcasm.   Carry on.....

Kyle(OE) apparently could bring some of that here.NO????Maybe not??We'll never know unless he speaks for himself which,to this point,he's been unwilling to do.At SM anyways.Monkey's are inquisitive and do ask tough questions from time to time..

Maybe in time he will.  But I did read a post of his where he was asked by the FBI not to comment on confidential information.  I'm guessing this is why the silence. 

How does anyone know the FBI said that??It's kyle's word??So Kermit is disseminating confidential information regarding a federal case without approval?

I don't believe Natalee is a "federal" case.

[Kat_Gram]

Wasn't there a time when some evidence, not this evidence, was split, 1/2 to the Dutch and the other 1/2 to the FBI labs ? 

[Keepthefaith]

Okay, Pita, ldstlou, and Hotshot--you all have detention after school today.  The lesson will be on the characteristics of OBFUSCATION.  Please read back for a definition and examples.  You will all write the word and its definition 100 times on the chalk board.  Please do not notify us when you are finished.  Carry on, now.
 

I'm not here to obfuscate the truth.  Just trying to make sense of it.  I don't appreciate your sarcasm.   Carry on.....

Kyle(OE) apparently could bring some of that here.NO????Maybe not??We'll never know unless he speaks for himself which,to this point,he's been unwilling to do.At SM anyways.Monkey's are inquisitive and do ask tough questions from time to time..

Maybe in time he will.  But I did read a post of his where he was asked by the FBI not to comment on confidential information.  I'm guessing this is why the silence. 

How does anyone know the FBI said that??It's kyle's word??So Kermit is disseminating confidential information regarding a federal case without approval?

I don't believe Natalee is a "federal" case.

What would it be called??

[Lifesong]

LIfesong,

I'm starting to like you a lot!

   Thank you, Helen.  It's usually very easy for me to keep my mouth shut here.  Today seems to be one of those execeptions! 

Monkeys are important to me!   

Natalee's mom being able to lay her child to rest is more important.

There but for the grace of God go I.

[Hotshot]

So, Hotshot, if you are so convinced that Kyle has answered all these questions and Kermit refuses to tell us this, then this implies that you know that Kyle has answered these questions and you know his answers.  That would be correct, some of them.

Are you going to tell us Kyle's answers?  Oh, that's right--you would never reveal a confidence shared in the ultra-secret, super-duper private forum, right?  Yes, I will, take this for what its worth, it was definately told to me by kyle.

Bullshit, to quote Tim Miller. 

If you have allegiances to a "private forum" that you can't share here, then why waste your time and fingertips typing to a bunch of Monkeys who just are not trustworthy enough to be privy to the insider, super-secret private info?  I am in no other "private forum" but SM. Actually some of my best buds are here at SM.  

Kyle did not give anything to the FBI since the pictures and statements from Dec 29th-  true.   There was nothing else to send the FBI. They obviously already had the videos.  They were already sent prior to that date.

The ABC meeting was an attempt by Louis to probe interest in the footage to get back at least a portion of the monies he personally put to the search effort.  This was just before the Dateline special aired.  Whether or not anyone was interested, Dateline told the trap story.  The discussions about the footage was just to help at least part of the search effort. Kyle did the talking about the footage to ABC because it was convenient for him to meet with them because he only lives an hour from their office.
 
Kyle was a member of a "team".  He was not the only one involved in the search.  Aren't we limited in knowing what happened during the search by only considering what happened by what we hear from one member of a team? Kyle was not responsible for everything that happened during the search, nor did he ever claim to be. He just told what he could and that wasn't good enough.

This is where the whole part of the conversation works.  Not just what you want out there.  The Freebirds are a good team, but when all does not go with everyones likings it goes sour for that person.  Kyle will not come back here.  He is not one for confrontations like this.  I don't blame him.  He has made his time for precious natalee, and thats what he should be doing.  Not trying to argue a point that has been misinterpretted.  which it all has been.  

[Pita]

Pita,

With all due respect, the Aruban authorities themselves do not obey Aruban law, the crew of the Persistence didn't have to either if their real mission was to bring Natalee home.

Also, do the specially selected smart people solving the case in their secret forum really believe that the FBI only goes where they are invited? 

Why have undercover agents then? 

We're all over the globe where we're not invited.  Come on....don't expect us to believe that. 

If they didn't plan on getting any evidence before ALE could get it, then Silvetti & Shaefer could and should have worked with the FBI/State Dept/CIA before ever leaving American shores to get an undercover agent on that boat.  I hope they did and none of us know that.  If not, then I think it perhaps was not their sole purpose in going.

Furthermore, I can't imagine anyone with thinking abilities would actually believe that Kyle didn't know what to do with the pictures/footage and was helplessly frustrated.  Even if he didn't want to go to the FBI and didn't know how to contact Beth, he could have contacted JQK.  Doesn't take an oceanographer to figure that out.

JMO

Lifesong, I'm not a professional in the field of oceanography and I'm not a judge of why people do as they do.   At best, I can only try to understand.  He covertly took those pictures.  When the evidence came back and it was different from what he saw in the pictures, I'm sure there was much anxiety and frustration.   

As far as the FBI being invited/uninvited, we have seen it time and time again in this case.  In most cases their hands were tied even when present.  Like you said, I hope there was an undercover agent on the boat that we weren't aware of.

[AZLady]

Kyle was a member of a "team".  He was not the only one involved in the search.  Aren't we limited in knowing what happened during the search by only considering what happened by what we hear from one member of a team? Kyle was not responsible for everything that happened during the search, nor did he ever claim to be. He just told what he could and that wasn't good enough.

The implies Kyle was a member of a "team" that discovered remains that were hidden by the Arubans whose divers brought them up.  Is this what you are saying?

[San]

Personally, I don't understand why anyone or any group is keeping anything quiet.

The bit about an ongoing investigation, and someone hurting it, is laughable.

The only "investigation" is Aruban....by law....not even the FBI can or will act autonomously.

The only hope is that the everyday person raises enough objection/noise that it attracts attention....be it media, congressmen...whatever.  Then there might be a chance of an international (interpol?) body looking into things.  Posting, discussing, disseminating info is not going to shut down or change the chance of an investigation.  Keeping quiet might.

I applaud FreeBirds collection, but I always believe a lot of everyday, concerned citizens contributed (maybe not compiled) to it's contents.

If you have an issue with an individual, that you were involved with, in a secret hidey hole, my guess is you have his/her contact info.  Please send them hateful, challenging messages directly.  If you feel the need to clarify a post then post a link or a copy....that's what the rest of us "normal" posters do.  If you don't want to then take it back to the hole.  IMO

I agree Buckeye.

[Kat_Gram]

http://www.iberianet.com/articles/2007/11/29/news/news/news00.txt
There were other companies who made donations or provided services or work hours for free or at a reduced cost as they hearts were in this for Natalee.
I am sure they would be happy to hear they were screwed over also.

[klaasend]

Out of curiosity, where did the money from Dateline go?  Were the family (Dave & Beth) aware that Kyle, Silvetti and Schaeffer were trying to strike up a deal with ABC?  Sounding dirtier all the time to me. 

[Tamikosmom]

Bottom line:

The unrevealed ROV images that Kyle spared from the destruction at the hands of the Arubans ... Kyle's concerns regarding the happenings aboard the Persistence regarding conflicts of interest concerning the chain of custody of the trap's contents ... should have been immediately shared with the FBI and/or the family of Natalee Holloway.  Justice for Natalee and ... a measure of closure for her family dictated it.  Kermit shares that this was Kyle's initial intent.

Sharing the ROV images and ... concern regarding the happenings on board of the Persistance with an internet poster should never have happened.  Contract with major networks to make a deal should never have happened.

My prayer is that Kyle has learned a valuable lesson.  It is always right to do right!

Proverbs 22:1
A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches

The family's priority has always been to bring their precious Natalee home ... home to American soil.  Maybe the opportunity has been lost to them forever.

 

Janet

_______

'Scarborough Country' for July 14
updated 8:45 a.m. PT, Fri., July. 15, 2005

JUG TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S STEPFATHER:  ... Beth and I have been through this emotional roller coaster. And all we want is Natalee, whether she's alive or dead. We want to bring her back to the United States, and we'll leave and they can do whatever they want to do.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8551824/

[Pita]

I'm going to say goodbye.  Have to make dinner. 

[billb's daughter]

did you read my post at all? There was no big discovery here. She copied and posted from a forum...duuuuh!!! Great detective work!!

And as far as I am concerned...we all knew that the aruban authories were the ones who collected the evidence. Where's the conspiracy? Once again...the arubans gathered the evidence. What they did with it after no one knows but the aruban authorites. We can only guess and speculate.

But did they share?  Did they give the proper samples to the FBI? 

After all we have known, and what we have seen and now the admission about van der Stratten, tell me one little reason that anyone should believe that the contents taken by the Aruban divers were shared honestly with the FBI. I wouldn't believe it. I am sure that is what we are expected to believe.

Nice bells BB...do they jingle when you walk?

[Hotshot]

Kyle was a member of a "team".  He was not the only one involved in the search.  Aren't we limited in knowing what happened during the search by only considering what happened by what we hear from one member of a team? Kyle was not responsible for everything that happened during the search, nor did he ever claim to be. He just told what he could and that wasn't good enough.

The implies Kyle was a member of a "team" that discovered remains that were hidden by the Arubans whose divers brought them up.  Is this what you are saying?

He was talking about the Persistence, and he still talks highly about the crew.

[Tamikosmom]

Out of curiosity, where did the money from Dateline go?  Were the family (Dave & Beth) aware that Kyle, Silvetti and Schaeffer were trying to strike up a deal with ABC?  Sounding dirtier all the time to me. 

 

Klaas ... the ram in this computer called my brain is full ... cannot compute any longer.

 

Janet

[Buckeye]

Hotshot

I wasn't going to get involved, however,  the evidence and recovery dive was January 7th.  Only the preliminary pics were Dec. 29.

Kyle did not give anything to the FBI since the pictures and statements from Dec 29th-  true.   There was nothing else to send the FBI. They obviously already had the videos.  They were already sent prior to that date.