Natalee Case Discussion #783 12/6/08 - 12/8/08

[snoopy]

I type slow so you have to be patient!! lol

Take your time.I hope there's a logical explanation to all of this.

I'm not ldstlou but I know her.  I think there is a logical explanation for the most part.  I don't agree with everything about T.Trahan or Silvetti, but I'm going to keep an open mind for the time being as to what Kermit has told us and Kyles explanation.

[ldstlou]

Strike a deal:
I believe it was always the intention of members of the Persistence to create a documentary of the search for Natalee. Talks were happening between members of the Persistence and tv stations to air the documentary. Nothing covert or underhanded at all in these talks.

[Keepthefaith]

My understanding is that after the arubans went down to recover the contents of the trap, the members of the Persistence had thought they would bring the contents of the cage back onto the ship, instead they entered their own boat and off they went, so the crew of the Persistence never saw the evidence. This in itself did not alarm them because at that point, they did not believe Natalee was in the cage anymore. It was this action by the arubans, along with a series of other suspicious events that caused Kyle to have real concern with what was in the cage afterall.
Additional information that came out months after the search really caused concern for Kyle and so he sought out Beth to discuss the findings. The concerns were sent to Beth and Kyle was invited to a private forum to discuss what had transpired on the search and after. The posts by kermit are not her theories, but rather posts copied and pasted here from the forum where Kyle and others were disseminating the information.

Why would Natalee,and or what appears to be human remains not be in there before the 7th of January??If the Arubans clean the cage out on the 7th and the pictures were taken on the same day.How would the contents of the cage be gone before then???

[ldstlou]

Dateline has all of the footage of the cage, they had planned on airing more than should have been aired. I believe the FBI had to step in and stop them from showing too much footage. Initially they were supposed to be doing a show on Tim Miller and Texas Equisearch, not on the search for Natalee.

[ldstlou]

My understanding is that after the arubans went down to recover the contents of the trap, the members of the Persistence had thought they would bring the contents of the cage back onto the ship, instead they entered their own boat and off they went, so the crew of the Persistence never saw the evidence. This in itself did not alarm them because at that point, they did not believe Natalee was in the cage anymore. It was this action by the arubans, along with a series of other suspicious events that caused Kyle to have real concern with what was in the cage afterall.
Additional information that came out months after the search really caused concern for Kyle and so he sought out Beth to discuss the findings. The concerns were sent to Beth and Kyle was invited to a private forum to discuss what had transpired on the search and after. The posts by kermit are not her theories, but rather posts copied and pasted here from the forum where Kyle and others were disseminating the information.

Why would Natalee,and or what appears to be human remains not be in there before the 7th of January??If the Arubans clean the cage out on the 7th and the pictures were taken on the same day.How would the contents of the cage be gone before then???

On the 24th, everyone on the Persistence believed 99.9% that the contents of the cage were Natalee. On the 25th they did a visual inspection and I believe at that point they were no longer sure it was Natalee. That is when Tim had to call Dave and say he jumped the gun.
What caused the suspicion that if fact it may have been Natalee after all, was how the arubans handled the evidence and investigation after.

[Keepthefaith]

My understanding is that after the arubans went down to recover the contents of the trap, the members of the Persistence had thought they would bring the contents of the cage back onto the ship, instead they entered their own boat and off they went, so the crew of the Persistence never saw the evidence. This in itself did not alarm them because at that point, they did not believe Natalee was in the cage anymore. It was this action by the arubans, along with a series of other suspicious events that caused Kyle to have real concern with what was in the cage afterall.
Additional information that came out months after the search really caused concern for Kyle and so he sought out Beth to discuss the findings. The concerns were sent to Beth and Kyle was invited to a private forum to discuss what had transpired on the search and after. The posts by kermit are not her theories, but rather posts copied and pasted here from the forum where Kyle and others were disseminating the information.

Why would Natalee,and or what appears to be human remains not be in there before the 7th of January??If the Arubans clean the cage out on the 7th and the pictures were taken on the same day.How would the contents of the cage be gone before then???

Why would they believe she was no longer in there??

[ldstlou]

Strike a deal:
I believe it was always the intention of members of the Persistence to create a documentary of the search for Natalee. Talks were happening between members of the Persistence and tv stations to air the documentary. Nothing covert or underhanded at all in these talks.

This is the strike a deal answer................... By February, Louis had put up over a million of his own money and well exceeded the amount he originally agreed to personally put up.  By early February they were talking about how to possibly extend the search effort and keep things going but funds were nearly out.  Louis did not want to reach out for public donations until all options were exhausted. They thought they would feel out the media to see if the story or footage was worth anything worthwhile to help with some of the costs, even if it could extend things a couple weeks.  He assumed Tim Trahan would have told Beth and Dave, but don't know for sure

[ldstlou]

My understanding is that after the arubans went down to recover the contents of the trap, the members of the Persistence had thought they would bring the contents of the cage back onto the ship, instead they entered their own boat and off they went, so the crew of the Persistence never saw the evidence. This in itself did not alarm them because at that point, they did not believe Natalee was in the cage anymore. It was this action by the arubans, along with a series of other suspicious events that caused Kyle to have real concern with what was in the cage afterall.
Additional information that came out months after the search really caused concern for Kyle and so he sought out Beth to discuss the findings. The concerns were sent to Beth and Kyle was invited to a private forum to discuss what had transpired on the search and after. The posts by kermit are not her theories, but rather posts copied and pasted here from the forum where Kyle and others were disseminating the information.

Why would Natalee,and or what appears to be human remains not be in there before the 7th of January??If the Arubans clean the cage out on the 7th and the pictures were taken on the same day.How would the contents of the cage be gone before then???

Why would they believe she was no longer in there??

From what they were able to see visually when they did the dive on the 25th

[Lifesong]

ldstlou,

What are your thoughts about the "thumbs down" on Dec. 30th?

I think a lot of us are having trouble with the fact that a dive was planned for Jan. 7th to retrieve the contents/evidence that on the 30th were a 'thumbs down'.

Hope that makes sense....

[Keepthefaith]

My understanding is that after the arubans went down to recover the contents of the trap, the members of the Persistence had thought they would bring the contents of the cage back onto the ship, instead they entered their own boat and off they went, so the crew of the Persistence never saw the evidence. This in itself did not alarm them because at that point, they did not believe Natalee was in the cage anymore. It was this action by the arubans, along with a series of other suspicious events that caused Kyle to have real concern with what was in the cage afterall.
Additional information that came out months after the search really caused concern for Kyle and so he sought out Beth to discuss the findings. The concerns were sent to Beth and Kyle was invited to a private forum to discuss what had transpired on the search and after. The posts by kermit are not her theories, but rather posts copied and pasted here from the forum where Kyle and others were disseminating the information.

Why would Natalee,and or what appears to be human remains not be in there before the 7th of January??If the Arubans clean the cage out on the 7th and the pictures were taken on the same day.How would the contents of the cage be gone before then???

On the 24th, everyone on the Persistence believed 99.9% that the contents of the cage were Natalee. On the 25th they did a visual inspection and I believe at that point they were no longer sure it was Natalee. That is when Tim had to call Dave and say he jumped the gun.
What caused the suspicion that if fact it may have been Natalee after all, was how the arubans handled the evidence and investigation after.

But isn't that the problem??How were they under the assumption it wasn't her??If you are on the persistence and didn't test anything in that cage you can't come to a conclusion until Forensincs is done.No??

[Magnolia]

Lisa, where are you getting all of this information?

[Blonde]

Very cool Johan    Is that a program that does that or did you do it in photoshop?

Photoshop yes 

johan I JUST GOT Photoshop but I  don't know how to use it yet...

[Blue Moon]

Strike a deal:
I believe it was always the intention of members of the Persistence to create a documentary of the search for Natalee. Talks were happening between members of the Persistence and tv stations to air the documentary. Nothing covert or underhanded at all in these talks.

This is the strike a deal answer................... By February, Louis had put up over a million of his own money and well exceeded the amount he originally agreed to personally put up.  By early February they were talking about how to possibly extend the search effort and keep things going but funds were nearly out.  Louis did not want to reach out for public donations until all options were exhausted. They thought they would feel out the media to see if the story or footage was worth anything worthwhile to help with some of the costs, even if it could extend things a couple weeks.  He assumed Tim Trahan would have told Beth and Dave, but don't know for sure

You are repeating almost verbatim what Hotshot has said.  I, at this moment, feel like a d*mn fool spending all my time on this computer, sending my money to help the search, only to have some "fools" on a ship decide it wasn't her but later think it was.  Has this "private forum" had a big laugh at us old women here trying to solve this case? 

[Keepthefaith]

Strike a deal:
I believe it was always the intention of members of the Persistence to create a documentary of the search for Natalee. Talks were happening between members of the Persistence and tv stations to air the documentary. Nothing covert or underhanded at all in these talks.

This is the strike a deal answer................... By February, Louis had put up over a million of his own money and well exceeded the amount he originally agreed to personally put up.  By early February they were talking about how to possibly extend the search effort and keep things going but funds were nearly out.  Louis did not want to reach out for public donations until all options were exhausted. They thought they would feel out the media to see if the story or footage was worth anything worthwhile to help with some of the costs, even if it could extend things a couple weeks.  He assumed Tim Trahan would have told Beth and Dave, but don't know for sure

You are repeating almost verbatim what Hotshot has said.  I, at this moment, feel like a d*mn fool spending all my time on this computer, sending my money to help the search, only to have some "fools" on a ship decide it wasn't her but later think it was.  Has this "private forum" had a big laugh at us old women here trying to solve this case? 

Who was the most trained on the Persistence to identify human remains??

[Tamikosmom]

Janet, it's been a long weekend..lol...but I think I have a better understanding of what all happened. If I don't have the answers, I will ask. If I have been asked not to tell something, I will let you know that.

How can I help you figure this out?

Thanks Lou.

Don't fret hon.

I doubt that Jug or ... the rest of the family were/are aware of everything that Kyle revealed in his emails to Kermit or ... in his posts to the SM site  and the private forum ... in regards to the conflict of interest that John Silvetti  possessed ... a conflict of interest that implied a self-serving motive to allow the enemy full control of the chain of custody of the contents of the trap/cage.

An FBI agent observant should have been requested and present and ... both John Silvetti  and the ALE (enemy)  should each have had full copies of photos of the contents of that cage.  Justice for Natalee Holloway ... closure for her family and ... an obligation to the financial supporters of the search effort deserved no less.

Janet

++++


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #137 on: Today at 04:07:13 PM »

Kyle stated: "neither Dave, Robin, or Beth has seen any of the ROV footage aside from what was broadcasted on Dateline or the pictures leaked from the FBI to Dave (and Robin H.). Beth has seen nothing in my knowledge."

Kyle stated: "John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.120


ocean exploration (Kyle)
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -
« Reply #201 on: March 19, 2008, 08:21:47 PM »

We had little option other than to have the Aruban dive division recover the samples and bring them back under their care.  Remember we are Americans working in Aruban waters, subject to their laws, invitation, and blessing.  Our hands are tied for the most part. I personally was extremely uncomfortable with the chain of custody, being that we weren't a part of it, but I was powerless to do anything about it.   The samples were photographed in detail by one Aruban diver and the other two investigated the contents of the trap, the dimensions, the rigging, and what surrounded the trap.  From the video, it looked like they did a diligent and careful job with the samples and the underwater photography.  I don't know who has these pictures, but I must assume ALE.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg366857#msg366857

[ldstlou]

I really feel the need to say again, that Kyle was invited into this private forum, and many know the forum I am referring to and why I felt it was sacred, as a result of his attempt to contact Beth to disclose his suspicions.
The posts you are seeing of Kyles..are posts taken from discussions that were taking place in this forum...there was no conspiracy. He was discussing these ideas openly and kermit is also a member of this forum, or at least was at the time, and that is how she learned of Kyle's concerns.

[ldstlou]

Janet, it's been a long weekend..lol...but I think I have a better understanding of what all happened. If I don't have the answers, I will ask. If I have been asked not to tell something, I will let you know that.

How can I help you figure this out?

Thanks Lou.

Don't fret hon.

I doubt that Jug or ... the rest of the family were/are aware of everything that Kyle revealed in his emails to Kermit or ... in his posts to the SM site  and the private forum ... in regards to the conflict of interest that John Silvetti  possessed ... a conflict of interest that implied a self-serving motive to allow the enemy full control of the chain of custody of the contents of the trap/cage.

An FBI agent observant should have been requested and present and ... both John Silvetti  and the ALE (enemy)  should each have had full copies of photos of the contents of that cage.  Justice for Natalee Holloway ... closure for her family and ... an obligation to the financial supporters of the search effort deserved no less.

Janet

++++


Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #137 on: Today at 04:07:13 PM »

Kyle stated: "neither Dave, Robin, or Beth has seen any of the ROV footage aside from what was broadcasted on Dateline or the pictures leaked from the FBI to Dave (and Robin H.). Beth has seen nothing in my knowledge."

Kyle stated: "John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.120


ocean exploration (Kyle)
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -
« Reply #201 on: March 19, 2008, 08:21:47 PM »

We had little option other than to have the Aruban dive division recover the samples and bring them back under their care.  Remember we are Americans working in Aruban waters, subject to their laws, invitation, and blessing.  Our hands are tied for the most part. I personally was extremely uncomfortable with the chain of custody, being that we weren't a part of it, but I was powerless to do anything about it.   The samples were photographed in detail by one Aruban diver and the other two investigated the contents of the trap, the dimensions, the rigging, and what surrounded the trap.  From the video, it looked like they did a diligent and careful job with the samples and the underwater photography.  I don't know who has these pictures, but I must assume ALE.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg366857#msg366857

You have to break it down for me Janet!! lol I am a slow typer and that one overwhelmed me!! lol
I will start with Beth seeing the info...

[snoopy]

Strike a deal:
I believe it was always the intention of members of the Persistence to create a documentary of the search for Natalee. Talks were happening between members of the Persistence and tv stations to air the documentary. Nothing covert or underhanded at all in these talks.

And the family or part of the family was aware of this correct?  This was not something Kyle was trying to profit from exclusively?

[Lifesong]

Strike a deal:
I believe it was always the intention of members of the Persistence to create a documentary of the search for Natalee. Talks were happening between members of the Persistence and tv stations to air the documentary. Nothing covert or underhanded at all in these talks.

This is the strike a deal answer................... By February, Louis had put up over a million of his own money and well exceeded the amount he originally agreed to personally put up.  By early February they were talking about how to possibly extend the search effort and keep things going but funds were nearly out.  Louis did not want to reach out for public donations until all options were exhausted. They thought they would feel out the media to see if the story or footage was worth anything worthwhile to help with some of the costs, even if it could extend things a couple weeks.  He assumed Tim Trahan would have told Beth and Dave, but don't know for sure

I got a big problem with that.  How could he be on a boat with the man and only assume that the parents of the girl whose remains they were searching the ocean floor for had been notified that they were looking to sell the story/footage.  He couldn't have asked?  Did he give a damn about Dave and Beth?  Would have sold it and let them just see it on television?

He assumed Tim Trahan would have told Beth and Dave.  That seriously p*sses me off.

JMO

[Keepthefaith]

I really feel the need to say again, that Kyle was invited into this private forum, and many know the forum I am referring to and why I felt it was sacred, as a result of his attempt to contact Beth to disclose his suspicions.
The posts you are seeing of Kyles..are posts taken from discussions that were taking place in this forum...there was no conspiracy. He was discussing these ideas openly and kermit is also a member of this forum, or at least was at the time, and that is how she learned of Kyle's concerns.

Isn't that the whole problem??Your gonna tell me the Persistence goes out and is on one of the BIGGEST searches for a missing person in American History and this is the competence  that we get???