Natalee Case Discussion #783 12/6/08 - 12/8/08

[texasmom]

My understanding is that after the arubans went down to recover the contents of the trap, the members of the Persistence had thought they would bring the contents of the cage back onto the ship, instead they entered their own boat and off they went, so the crew of the Persistence never saw the evidence. This in itself did not alarm them because at that point, they did not believe Natalee was in the cage anymore. It was this action by the arubans, along with a series of other suspicious events that caused Kyle to have real concern with what was in the cage afterall.
Additional information that came out months after the search really caused concern for Kyle and so he sought out Beth to discuss the findings. The concerns were sent to Beth and Kyle was invited to a private forum to discuss what had transpired on the search and after. The posts by kermit are not her theories, but rather posts copied and pasted here from the forum where Kyle and others were disseminating the information.

Why would Natalee,and or what appears to be human remains not be in there before the 7th of January??If the Arubans clean the cage out on the 7th and the pictures were taken on the same day.How would the contents of the cage be gone before then???

Why would they believe she was no longer in there??

From what they were able to see visually when they did the dive on the 25th

A dive on the 25th contradicts my specific question to Kyle and his response.  

[Helen Back]

Helen,

Thanks for the link, I posted it on my blog. I think I'll pick one or 2 every day and email them, ask they why?

I'll ask them how they will sleep this Christmas, how they'll eat and make sure I attach a picture of Natalee.

I want them to feel the burn of Shame these cowards live in every day.

Thanks, Frank.  I, too, will be writing.  After my bitching profusely about an investigation into the corruption, I feel I must at least exercise the opportunity Caesu has provided.  There is not much hope of justice without help from the Dutch, or pressure from the US State Department , no matter how many inconsistencies, lies, conflict of interest, corruption, remains, cages, and eyewitnesses are brought forward.  Aruba doesn't give a sh*t.  Aruba is just a little too close to the USA for me to be comfortable with their lawlessness.  I hope I can make that point effectively.

We can at least let them know that we know they could help.



 

[Blue Moon]

What's the explanation for the sudden departure of the ship AFTER requesting funds to continue a search?  Why-when so many heeded that call for funds by sending in the donations-did they just up and leave without giving it a chance to collect the needed funds?  What were the funds for IF they thought they had been "had" by the Aruban OE back in Jan.07?

[ldstlou]

Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #137 on: Today at 04:07:13 PM »

Kyle stated: "neither Dave, Robin, or Beth has seen any of the ROV footage aside from what was broadcasted on Dateline or the pictures leaked from the FBI to Dave (and Robin H.). Beth has seen nothing in my knowledge."

Kyle stated: "John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship."

Do you remember what was happening at the time the Persistence was in Aruba? Joran had been arrested again, Mos called Beth and Dave and John to Aruba to give them the "new evidence" and instead interrogated them for 4 hours on Natalee's "behavior". I believe this was Beth's focus at the time and Dave was working with the Persistence more so than Beth.

You have to remember that Kyle had just received info that did not set well with him and is now starting to wonder why? He is going back and forth with everything that happened with the members of this forum..trying to disseminate what happened...and so that is why just to bring that quote over...well..it is out of context..does that mae sense? It was a culmnation of events..including some that he found out about months after the search....that caused him to really start to become alarmed.

[Lifesong]

ldstlou,

What are your thoughts about the "thumbs down" on Dec. 30th?

I think a lot of us are having trouble with the fact that a dive was planned for Jan. 7th to retrieve the contents/evidence that on the 30th were a 'thumbs down'.

Hope that makes sense....

[Keepthefaith]

Question ldstlou.Could that have been Natalee in the cage/trap???

[ldstlou]

My understanding is that after the arubans went down to recover the contents of the trap, the members of the Persistence had thought they would bring the contents of the cage back onto the ship, instead they entered their own boat and off they went, so the crew of the Persistence never saw the evidence. This in itself did not alarm them because at that point, they did not believe Natalee was in the cage anymore. It was this action by the arubans, along with a series of other suspicious events that caused Kyle to have real concern with what was in the cage afterall.
Additional information that came out months after the search really caused concern for Kyle and so he sought out Beth to discuss the findings. The concerns were sent to Beth and Kyle was invited to a private forum to discuss what had transpired on the search and after. The posts by kermit are not her theories, but rather posts copied and pasted here from the forum where Kyle and others were disseminating the information.

Why would Natalee,and or what appears to be human remains not be in there before the 7th of January??If the Arubans clean the cage out on the 7th and the pictures were taken on the same day.How would the contents of the cage be gone before then???

Why would they believe she was no longer in there??

From what they were able to see visually when they did the dive on the 25th

A dive on the 25th contradicts my specific question to Kyle and his response.  

I apologize..I may be getting the dates confused. I am referring to the thumbs down dive. I thought it was Christmas day but I may have been wrong.

[Nut44x4]

O/T for those interested in Clinton's thread.....Carolyn just posted
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1318.new#new

[ldstlou]

Question ldstlou.Could that have been Natalee in the cage/trap???

absolutely. Was it? We will probably never know.
Kyle is not the bad guy here. It was because he was never allowed to know for sure whether it was her or not, because the arubans jumped on their boat and high tailed it away..that it will forever haunt him I believe. He was noodling out the possiblity in the forum...that is what all thse posts are...Kyle noodling out the possibility it was Natalee.

[ldstlou]

ldstlou,

What are your thoughts about the "thumbs down" on Dec. 30th?

I think a lot of us are having trouble with the fact that a dive was planned for Jan. 7th to retrieve the contents/evidence that on the 30th were a 'thumbs down'.

Hope that makes sense....

It does..hang on..I will address this next

[snoopy]

ldstlou don't get mad but you are not explaining this very well.  Please start at the point where Tim Miller sees on the monitor what he truly believes is Natalee.  To where divers go down and give a thumbs down that it is not Natalee to January 7th where the dive takes place and evidence is taken.

The problem that I am having is between the thumbs down dive to the collection of evidence on Jan 7th

What occured between the thumbs down dive and the dive on January 7th?

[Keepthefaith]

Question ldstlou.Could that have been Natalee in the cage/trap???

absolutely. Was it? We will probably never know.
Kyle is not the bad guy here. It was because he was never allowed to know for sure whether it was her or not, because the arubans jumped on their boat and high tailed it away..that it will forever haunt him I believe. He was noodling out the possiblity in the forum...that is what all thse posts are...Kyle noodling out the possibility it was Natalee.

I do appreciate what your saying.Do i believe something very wrong was going on with the Persistence??Yes.Do i know who exactly who was involved and why.NO.You can not for the life of me tell me these people searching for Natalee were that incompetent.That's putting it nicely!Unbelievable.You potentially have Natalee right under your boat and you up and let the ALE come in and take the contents of the cage without getting any samples.NOPE.Don't buy it for a second.

[ldstlou]

ldstlou,

What are your thoughts about the "thumbs down" on Dec. 30th?

I think a lot of us are having trouble with the fact that a dive was planned for Jan. 7th to retrieve the contents/evidence that on the 30th were a 'thumbs down'.

Hope that makes sense....

I am sorry I said Christmas day..it was the 30th.
This is the hard part. The Persistence was looking for clothing evidence. I don't believe they expected to find any bones or especially a skull in the water after all that time. I believe they got caught up in emotion, more than logic when they saw the image that looked like a skull. Logic says it would not be there. So I believe the visual showed it was not a skull. But there is still fabric there...and so still some hope. Until they can recover the fabric and have it tested..no one knows if Natalee was disposed of there or not. So the next step is to gather the fabric and have it tested. Kyle found out later..I believe it was late February, that the handling of the fabric was very suspect..thus the increased concerns and the reaching out to Beth.

[Keepthefaith]

ldstlou,

What are your thoughts about the "thumbs down" on Dec. 30th?

I think a lot of us are having trouble with the fact that a dive was planned for Jan. 7th to retrieve the contents/evidence that on the 30th were a 'thumbs down'.

Hope that makes sense....

I am sorry I said Christmas day..it was the 30th.
This is the hard part. The Persistence was looking for clothing evidence. I don't believe they expected to find any bones or especially a skull in the water after all that time. I believe they got caught up in emotion, more than logic when they saw the image that looked like a skull. Logic says it would not be there. So I believe the visual showed it was not a skull. But there is still fabric there...and so still some hope. Until they can recover the fabric and have it tested..no one knows if Natalee was disposed of there or not. So the next step is to gather the fabric and have it tested. Kyle found out later..I believe it was late February, that the handling of the fabric was very suspect..thus the increased concerns and the reaching out to Beth.

Just questions.Is Kyle concerned,and or covering his tracks because he was aware..

[ldstlou]

ldstlou don't get mad but you are not explaining this very well.  Please start at the point where Tim Miller sees on the monitor what he truly believes is Natalee.  To where divers go down and give a thumbs down that it is not Natalee to January 7th where the dive takes place and evidence is taken.

The problem that I am having is between the thumbs down dive to the collection of evidence on Jan 7th

What occured between the thumbs down dive and the dive on January 7th?

I have to get this clarified better. And you know, Kermit knows the answers better than I do. She was there at the forum when this was being discussed. In my mind, this is what she should be discussing.

Aruba sets the collection date 7 days later. Persistence had no say so in the matter. Their hands were tied the same the FBI's hands were tied when they were there in the beginning with Beth.
The focus after the visual was gathering the material and having it tested.

[ldstlou]

ldstlou,

What are your thoughts about the "thumbs down" on Dec. 30th?

I think a lot of us are having trouble with the fact that a dive was planned for Jan. 7th to retrieve the contents/evidence that on the 30th were a 'thumbs down'.

Hope that makes sense....

I am sorry I said Christmas day..it was the 30th.
This is the hard part. The Persistence was looking for clothing evidence. I don't believe they expected to find any bones or especially a skull in the water after all that time. I believe they got caught up in emotion, more than logic when they saw the image that looked like a skull. Logic says it would not be there. So I believe the visual showed it was not a skull. But there is still fabric there...and so still some hope. Until they can recover the fabric and have it tested..no one knows if Natalee was disposed of there or not. So the next step is to gather the fabric and have it tested. Kyle found out later..I believe it was late February, that the handling of the fabric was very suspect..thus the increased concerns and the reaching out to Beth.

Just questions.Is Kyle concerned,and or covering his tracks because he was aware..

I think the fact that he attempted to contact Beth when he found out the length of time it took Aruba to get the evidence to the FBI (21 days..no way it should have taken 21 days) along with the FBI's final report, that created the concern for Kyle. He then attepted to get the info to Beth, and then joined the forum to discuss his concerns. I don't think that is covering up at all.

[ldstlou]

ldstlou don't get mad but you are not explaining this very well.  Please start at the point where Tim Miller sees on the monitor what he truly believes is Natalee.  To where divers go down and give a thumbs down that it is not Natalee to January 7th where the dive takes place and evidence is taken.

The problem that I am having is between the thumbs down dive to the collection of evidence on Jan 7th

What occured between the thumbs down dive and the dive on January 7th?

Iwill never get mad at you!! I just had no idea that what I was trying to relate was coming off the wrong way. I am glad you pointed that out to me. I am trying to get to the truth the same way as everyone else.

[snoopy]

ldstlou,

What are your thoughts about the "thumbs down" on Dec. 30th?

I think a lot of us are having trouble with the fact that a dive was planned for Jan. 7th to retrieve the contents/evidence that on the 30th were a 'thumbs down'.

Hope that makes sense....

I am sorry I said Christmas day..it was the 30th.
This is the hard part. The Persistence was looking for clothing evidence. I don't believe they expected to find any bones or especially a skull in the water after all that time. I believe they got caught up in emotion, more than logic when they saw the image that looked like a skull. Logic says it would not be there. So I believe the visual showed it was not a skull. But there is still fabric there...and so still some hope. Until they can recover the fabric and have it tested..no one knows if Natalee was disposed of there or not. So the next step is to gather the fabric and have it tested. Kyle found out later..I believe it was late February, that the handling of the fabric was very suspect..thus the increased concerns and the reaching out to Beth.

So the dive on December 30th was a thumbs down that it wasn't a scull in the trap?  And the diver that gave the thumbs down was Tim Trahan?  And Tim Trahan works with / for John Silvetti.  And Kyle was an employee that had a limited job? 

And when the dive was done on January 7th we are to believe that the only thing they were going to collect was material?  Not human remains?  This is what is cloudy for me.

I know you don't have all the answers ldstlou and I'm not trying to hold your feet to the fire, but please explain this as best you can.

Personally I'll always believe from the pictures that I have seen posted here at SM that it was human remains and that it was Natalee.

[ldstlou]

What's the explanation for the sudden departure of the ship AFTER requesting funds to continue a search?  Why-when so many heeded that call for funds by sending in the donations-did they just up and leave without giving it a chance to collect the needed funds?  What were the funds for IF they thought they had been "had" by the Aruban OE back in Jan.07?

I never asked these questions so I really can't answer...it would just be a guess and I don't want to do that.

[snoopy]

ldstlou don't get mad but you are not explaining this very well.  Please start at the point where Tim Miller sees on the monitor what he truly believes is Natalee.  To where divers go down and give a thumbs down that it is not Natalee to January 7th where the dive takes place and evidence is taken.

The problem that I am having is between the thumbs down dive to the collection of evidence on Jan 7th

What occured between the thumbs down dive and the dive on January 7th?

Iwill never get mad at you!! I just had no idea that what I was trying to relate was coming off the wrong way. I am glad you pointed that out to me. I am trying to get to the truth the same way as everyone else.

I know that ldstlou.  That is why I called you because I knew what you were trying to say wasn't getting out there correctly.

I do think you and others are being mislead that John Silvetti and Tim Trahans actions were fully honorable.  It is just my humble opinion that Aruba never in a million years expected the Persistence to locate Natalee and when they did find her a deal was struck between John and Aruba for financial gain.  Just my humble opinion.  Something happened between Dec. 25th and January 7th.