Natalee Case Discussion #783 12/6/08 - 12/8/08

[ldstlou]

ldstlou,

What are your thoughts about the "thumbs down" on Dec. 30th?

I think a lot of us are having trouble with the fact that a dive was planned for Jan. 7th to retrieve the contents/evidence that on the 30th were a 'thumbs down'.

Hope that makes sense....

I am sorry I said Christmas day..it was the 30th.
This is the hard part. The Persistence was looking for clothing evidence. I don't believe they expected to find any bones or especially a skull in the water after all that time. I believe they got caught up in emotion, more than logic when they saw the image that looked like a skull. Logic says it would not be there. So I believe the visual showed it was not a skull. But there is still fabric there...and so still some hope. Until they can recover the fabric and have it tested..no one knows if Natalee was disposed of there or not. So the next step is to gather the fabric and have it tested. Kyle found out later..I believe it was late February, that the handling of the fabric was very suspect..thus the increased concerns and the reaching out to Beth.

So the dive on December 30th was a thumbs down that it wasn't a scull in the trap?  And the diver that gave the thumbs down was Tim Trahan?  And Tim Trahan works with / for John Silvetti.  And Kyle was an employee that had a limited job? 

And when the dive was done on January 7th we are to believe that the only thing they were going to collect was material?  Not human remains?  This is what is cloudy for me.

I know you don't have all the answers ldstlou and I'm not trying to hold your feet to the fire, but please explain this as best you can.

Personally I'll always believe from the pictures that I have seen posted here at SM that it was human remains and that it was Natalee.

My understanding is this, from the photos it appears to be a skull...from the visual it does not appear to be a skull...and remember...they weren't expecting to find a skull...it had been too long. But there was definately cloth in there, so I believe they were still excited about finding the cloth. The fact that they had found the trap, in about the exact loation as Tim predicted it would be, with what appeared to be clothing material, was miraculous to them all. Even without out the skull, it still looked hopeful.

[snoopy]

What's the explanation for the sudden departure of the ship AFTER requesting funds to continue a search?  Why-when so many heeded that call for funds by sending in the donations-did they just up and leave without giving it a chance to collect the needed funds?  What were the funds for IF they thought they had been "had" by the Aruban OE back in Jan.07?

I never asked these questions so I really can't answer...it would just be a guess and I don't want to do that.

Is it possible that you could find out?

[ldstlou]

ldstlou don't get mad but you are not explaining this very well.  Please start at the point where Tim Miller sees on the monitor what he truly believes is Natalee.  To where divers go down and give a thumbs down that it is not Natalee to January 7th where the dive takes place and evidence is taken.

The problem that I am having is between the thumbs down dive to the collection of evidence on Jan 7th

What occured between the thumbs down dive and the dive on January 7th?

Iwill never get mad at you!! I just had no idea that what I was trying to relate was coming off the wrong way. I am glad you pointed that out to me. I am trying to get to the truth the same way as everyone else.

I know that ldstlou.  That is why I called you because I knew what you were trying to say wasn't getting out there correctly.

I do think you and others are being mislead that John Silvetti and Tim Trahans actions were fully honorable.  It is just my humble opinion that Aruba never in a million years expected the Persistence to locate Natalee and when they did find her a deal was struck between John and Aruba for financial gain.  Just my humble opinion.  Something happened between Dec. 25th and January 7th.

I don't know enough about these men to answer one way or the other Snoopy. I just know Tim Miller trusted them.

[ldstlou]

What's the explanation for the sudden departure of the ship AFTER requesting funds to continue a search?  Why-when so many heeded that call for funds by sending in the donations-did they just up and leave without giving it a chance to collect the needed funds?  What were the funds for IF they thought they had been "had" by the Aruban OE back in Jan.07?

I never asked these questions so I really can't answer...it would just be a guess and I don't want to do that.

Is it possible that you could find out?

sure, I can ask.

[Kat_Gram]

Just who is Caps Lock Wizard ? I could never make any sense out of the person's posts, always seemed to speak in code, beats around the bush, cryptic. ( Always thought to myself, what BS ! and stopped paying any attention months ago )  What exactly was the purpose of that person ? When did they " drop in " ?  Did they ever provide any information or was this yet another Aruban dispensing Three Card Monte posts ?
.. As for the Dutch being embarassed, well they knew years ago that there were inappropriate calls and conversations between Jan and Paulus. Nothing happened then and nothing will happen now. I read about these convos here and I think it was Karin Janssen who mentioned it in a public fashion. Wasn't that why Dompig replaced Jan ? So, they dealt with the problem in 2005. He was going to retire, he then wanted to stay on and they didn't let him. Case closed. All's well for all of those bastards.   

[ldstlou]

Just who is Caps Lock Wizard ? I could never make any sense out of the person's posts, always seemed to speak in code, beats around the bush, cryptic. ( Always thought to myself, what BS ! and stopped paying any attention months ago )  What exactly was the purpose of that person ? When did they " drop in " ?  Did they ever provide any information or was this yet another Aruban dispensing Three Card Monte posts ?
.. As for the Dutch being embarassed, well they knew years ago that there were inappropriate calls and conversations between Jan and Paulus. Nothing happened then and nothing will happen now. I read about these convos here and I think it was Karin Janssen who mentioned it in a public fashion. Wasn't that why Dompig replaced Jan ? So, they dealt with the problem in 2005. He was going to retire, he then wanted to stay on and they didn't let him. Case closed. All's well for all of those bastards.   

Is this for me?

[snoopy]

ldstlou,

What are your thoughts about the "thumbs down" on Dec. 30th?

I think a lot of us are having trouble with the fact that a dive was planned for Jan. 7th to retrieve the contents/evidence that on the 30th were a 'thumbs down'.

Hope that makes sense....

I am sorry I said Christmas day..it was the 30th.
This is the hard part. The Persistence was looking for clothing evidence. I don't believe they expected to find any bones or especially a skull in the water after all that time. I believe they got caught up in emotion, more than logic when they saw the image that looked like a skull. Logic says it would not be there. So I believe the visual showed it was not a skull. But there is still fabric there...and so still some hope. Until they can recover the fabric and have it tested..no one knows if Natalee was disposed of there or not. So the next step is to gather the fabric and have it tested. Kyle found out later..I believe it was late February, that the handling of the fabric was very suspect..thus the increased concerns and the reaching out to Beth.

So the dive on December 30th was a thumbs down that it wasn't a scull in the trap?  And the diver that gave the thumbs down was Tim Trahan?  And Tim Trahan works with / for John Silvetti.  And Kyle was an employee that had a limited job? 

And when the dive was done on January 7th we are to believe that the only thing they were going to collect was material?  Not human remains?  This is what is cloudy for me.

I know you don't have all the answers ldstlou and I'm not trying to hold your feet to the fire, but please explain this as best you can.

Personally I'll always believe from the pictures that I have seen posted here at SM that it was human remains and that it was Natalee.

My understanding is this, from the photos it appears to be a skull...from the visual it does not appear to be a skull...and remember...they weren't expecting to find a skull...it had been too long. But there was definately cloth in there, so I believe they were still excited about finding the cloth. The fact that they had found the trap, in about the exact loation as Tim predicted it would be, with what appeared to be clothing material, was miraculous to them all. Even without out the skull, it still looked hopeful.

Understood.  Now since seeing the bags of evidence in the cage and what appears to me to be human bones isn't it odd that Tim Trahan would give a thumbs down?  I mean we have all seen the bags of evidence in the cage and I'm pretty sure that most of us agree that we see human bones.

This isn't against you ldstlou.  Just making observations.

[Tamikosmom]

Lou

You claim that Beth and Dave have no complaint with the search effort of the Persistence.  If they are aware of what Kyle has revealed in his own words ... I find that hard to believe.  I am devasted ... I want answers and ... Natalee is not my daughter.

Janet

+++++++ 

1.  Is Natalee's parents aware that the chain of custody of the contends of the trap did not involve the crew of the Persistence.

ocean exploration (Kyle)
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #744 3/19 -
« Reply #201 on: March 19, 2008, 08:21:47 PM »

We had little option other than to have the Aruban dive division recover the samples and bring them back under their care.  Remember we are Americans working in Aruban waters, subject to their laws, invitation, and blessing.  Our hands are tied for the most part. I personally was extremely uncomfortable with the chain of custody, being that we weren't a part of it, but I was powerless to do anything about it ...

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2721.msg366857#msg366857


2. Is Natalee's parents aware that Kyle has suspicions that the crew the Persistence was kept away from the location of the trap while the contends were collected and destoryed.

Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #896 on: Today at 03:00:21 AM »

Kyle said: "We're being fed misinformation to keep us searching and out of their way while they cover their asses, destroy evidence, cover their tracks, and keep us out at sea and away from the trap."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564748;topicseen#msg564748


3.  Is the family aware that Kyle has suspicions that John Silvetti had a conflict of interest that implied he had a self-serving motivation not to challenge the chain of custody in regards to the contents of the cage/trap.

Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #137 on: Today at 04:07:13 PM »

Kyle stated: "John is not a believer in the trap. He took ALE's word as gospel that it wasn't case related, yet never studied the videos or bothered to inquire further. He had plans on doing business with Aruba and in S. America and he didn't want to hurt any feelings by talks hinting at lack of complete trust and friendship."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.120


4.  Is the family aware that the ROV images that were save from destruction by the ALE (enemy) were not turned over to the FBI by Kyle IMMEDIATELY upon arriving on American soil.

Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #137 on: Today at 04:07:13 PM »

Kyle stated: "neither Dave, Robin, or Beth has seen any of the ROV footage aside from what was broadcasted on Dateline or the pictures leaked from the FBI to Dave (and Robin H.). Beth has seen nothing in my knowledge."

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.120


5.  Is the family aware the John considered Tim Miller a liability ... Tim Miller is the one who claimed on Dateline ... claimed on Nancy Grace ... claimed on Greta ... that he was sure that he observed a skull in the ROV image taken Christmas Eve.

Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #780 11/26/08 -
« Reply #902 on: Today at 03:09:00 AM »

Kyle said: "John didn't want Tim Miller on board the Persistence because he said Tim wasn't necessary any more and was a liability"

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4182.msg564763#msg564763


6.  Is the family aware that Kyle believes Natalee's remains are in the cage?

Kermit
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #782 12/5/08 -
« Reply #275 on: December 05, 2008, 07:05:44 PM »

Kyle said: "Notice the end of the skirt is an identical match to the 90 degree angle in the sand.
- I believe her left arm was outstretched with her legs slightly bent. I did not edit the legs.
- I believe the tarp was placed over her and tucked around her, or perhaps tied down. I believe there are several rocks laying on the sand which were placed on the tarp, or inside the tarp over her body which explains their unusual location.
- Either way, the proportions appear promising.

Kyle said: “- I took the proportions of the body form from the head, to shoulder, to a 90 degree angle which I believed to be the hem line of Natalee's skirt. I then took those proportions and matched them to the photo of Natalee with what she was last seen wearing. The proportions matched within an inch from head, to shoulder, to skirt line.

Based on this comparison and with what we believed we saw in the Dec 29th video, Tim Miller contacted the family and told them the 99.9% comment. I told Tim not to do anything until we have forensic results back after the site is processed.

Jan 7th we sampled the contents and in my opinion we found the skirt under the sand along with the other items

The blue fabric was found right where the skirt is pictured. If it isn't her, it will forever haunt me as a major cosmic WTF.”

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4209.msg568246;topicseen#msg568246

[snoopy]

Just who is Caps Lock Wizard ? I could never make any sense out of the person's posts, always seemed to speak in code, beats around the bush, cryptic. ( Always thought to myself, what BS ! and stopped paying any attention months ago )  What exactly was the purpose of that person ? When did they " drop in " ?  Did they ever provide any information or was this yet another Aruban dispensing Three Card Monte posts ?
.. As for the Dutch being embarassed, well they knew years ago that there were inappropriate calls and conversations between Jan and Paulus. Nothing happened then and nothing will happen now. I read about these convos here and I think it was Karin Janssen who mentioned it in a public fashion. Wasn't that why Dompig replaced Jan ? So, they dealt with the problem in 2005. He was going to retire, he then wanted to stay on and they didn't let him. Case closed. All's well for all of those bastards.   

I have yet to figure this out myself, but I know that several trusted monkys here believe in what CAPS is doing  so for the mean time I'm sitting tight.

[Lifesong]

ldstlou,

What are your thoughts about the "thumbs down" on Dec. 30th?

I think a lot of us are having trouble with the fact that a dive was planned for Jan. 7th to retrieve the contents/evidence that on the 30th were a 'thumbs down'.

Hope that makes sense....

I am sorry I said Christmas day..it was the 30th.
This is the hard part. The Persistence was looking for clothing evidence. I don't believe they expected to find any bones or especially a skull in the water after all that time. I believe they got caught up in emotion, more than logic when they saw the image that looked like a skull. Logic says it would not be there. So I believe the visual showed it was not a skull. But there is still fabric there...and so still some hope. Until they can recover the fabric and have it tested..no one knows if Natalee was disposed of there or not. So the next step is to gather the fabric and have it tested. Kyle found out later..I believe it was late February, that the handling of the fabric was very suspect..thus the increased concerns and the reaching out to Beth.

So the dive on December 30th was a thumbs down that it wasn't a scull in the trap?  And the diver that gave the thumbs down was Tim Trahan?  And Tim Trahan works with / for John Silvetti.  And Kyle was an employee that had a limited job? 

And when the dive was done on January 7th we are to believe that the only thing they were going to collect was material?  Not human remains?  This is what is cloudy for me.

I know you don't have all the answers ldstlou and I'm not trying to hold your feet to the fire, but please explain this as best you can.

Personally I'll always believe from the pictures that I have seen posted here at SM that it was human remains and that it was Natalee.

My understanding is this, from the photos it appears to be a skull...from the visual it does not appear to be a skull...and remember...they weren't expecting to find a skull...it had been too long. But there was definately cloth in there, so I believe they were still excited about finding the cloth. The fact that they had found the trap, in about the exact loation as Tim predicted it would be, with what appeared to be clothing material, was miraculous to them all. Even without out the skull, it still looked hopeful.

I'm confused again.  Please be patient with me here, I'm not trying to be rude to you at all.

If it still looked hopeful, then why would Tim call Dave and say it wasn't her?  Why, if they saw the cloth (which I thought was hidden under the sandbar that had settled on top of said material and wasn't discovered until the contents were sampled on the 7th) did they decide it had nothing to do with Natalee?  Who decided it had nothing to do with Natalee?  Was that Tim Trahan?

[can]

ldstlou,

What are your thoughts about the "thumbs down" on Dec. 30th?

I think a lot of us are having trouble with the fact that a dive was planned for Jan. 7th to retrieve the contents/evidence that on the 30th were a 'thumbs down'.

Hope that makes sense....

I am sorry I said Christmas day..it was the 30th.
This is the hard part. The Persistence was looking for clothing evidence. I don't believe they expected to find any bones or especially a skull in the water after all that time. I believe they got caught up in emotion, more than logic when they saw the image that looked like a skull. Logic says it would not be there. So I believe the visual showed it was not a skull. But there is still fabric there...and so still some hope. Until they can recover the fabric and have it tested..no one knows if Natalee was disposed of there or not. So the next step is to gather the fabric and have it tested. Kyle found out later..I believe it was late February, that the handling of the fabric was very suspect..thus the increased concerns and the reaching out to Beth.

So the dive on December 30th was a thumbs down that it wasn't a scull in the trap?  And the diver that gave the thumbs down was Tim Trahan?  And Tim Trahan works with / for John Silvetti.  And Kyle was an employee that had a limited job? 

And when the dive was done on January 7th we are to believe that the only thing they were going to collect was material?  Not human remains?  This is what is cloudy for me.

I know you don't have all the answers ldstlou and I'm not trying to hold your feet to the fire, but please explain this as best you can.

Personally I'll always believe from the pictures that I have seen posted here at SM that it was human remains and that it was Natalee.

My understanding is this, from the photos it appears to be a skull...from the visual it does not appear to be a skull...and remember...they weren't expecting to find a skull...it had been too long. But there was definately cloth in there, so I believe they were still excited about finding the cloth. The fact that they had found the trap, in about the exact loation as Tim predicted it would be, with what appeared to be clothing material, was miraculous to them all. Even without out the skull, it still looked hopeful.

from the photos it appears to be a skull...from the visual it does not appear to be a skull...

this is confusing to me...what could it have been? ...  are you saying that after ALE dove and took away the contents of the cage that item that appeared to be skull and did not appear to be a skull...was suspect?

[Kat_Gram]

So, I checked the membership rolls, Caps joined DEC 20, 2007.
Perfect timing. Has made > 1000 posts. Can anyone think of one fact CAPS dispensed ?
Kyle said that he felt CAPS was one step away from Dirty Hand. Maybe it's old Dirty Hand himself.
ps I think Kyle had misgivings but he did nothing wrong personally. I also think there is a good likelyhood that Natalee was in that cage and CAPS was here for a purpose.  IMO

[ldstlou]

ldstlou,

What are your thoughts about the "thumbs down" on Dec. 30th?

I think a lot of us are having trouble with the fact that a dive was planned for Jan. 7th to retrieve the contents/evidence that on the 30th were a 'thumbs down'.

Hope that makes sense....

I am sorry I said Christmas day..it was the 30th.
This is the hard part. The Persistence was looking for clothing evidence. I don't believe they expected to find any bones or especially a skull in the water after all that time. I believe they got caught up in emotion, more than logic when they saw the image that looked like a skull. Logic says it would not be there. So I believe the visual showed it was not a skull. But there is still fabric there...and so still some hope. Until they can recover the fabric and have it tested..no one knows if Natalee was disposed of there or not. So the next step is to gather the fabric and have it tested. Kyle found out later..I believe it was late February, that the handling of the fabric was very suspect..thus the increased concerns and the reaching out to Beth.

So the dive on December 30th was a thumbs down that it wasn't a scull in the trap?  And the diver that gave the thumbs down was Tim Trahan?  And Tim Trahan works with / for John Silvetti.  And Kyle was an employee that had a limited job? 

And when the dive was done on January 7th we are to believe that the only thing they were going to collect was material?  Not human remains?  This is what is cloudy for me.

I know you don't have all the answers ldstlou and I'm not trying to hold your feet to the fire, but please explain this as best you can.

Personally I'll always believe from the pictures that I have seen posted here at SM that it was human remains and that it was Natalee.

My understanding is this, from the photos it appears to be a skull...from the visual it does not appear to be a skull...and remember...they weren't expecting to find a skull...it had been too long. But there was definitely cloth in there, so I believe they were still excited about finding the cloth. The fact that they had found the trap, in about the exact location as Tim predicted it would be, with what appeared to be clothing material, was miraculous to them all. Even without out the skull, it still looked hopeful.

Understood.  Now since seeing the bags of evidence in the cage and what appears to me to be human bones isn't it odd that Tim Trahan would give a thumbs down?  I mean we have all seen the bags of evidence in the cage and I'm pretty sure that most of us agree that we see human bones.

This isn't against you lastly.  Just making observations.

The only answer I have for that is that bones were not expected to be found in the ocean after all that time. Does that make sense? If they were bones, it would be the ultimate miracle. So chances are they were not bones. But the problem is, no one will ever know for sure if they were or not because the arubans went straight to their boat and left instead of boarding the Persistence like they were supposed to. But regardless, the material found could have proven one way or the other if it was Natalee. But arubans rushed off with it and then took 21 days to get the evidence to FBI to test. Why? I don't feel that this was done by the crew of the Persistence, but to the crew of the Persistence by the Arubans..just like they did with every other bit of evidence that has been found over the years.

[ldstlou]

ldstlou,

What are your thoughts about the "thumbs down" on Dec. 30th?

I think a lot of us are having trouble with the fact that a dive was planned for Jan. 7th to retrieve the contents/evidence that on the 30th were a 'thumbs down'.

Hope that makes sense....

I am sorry I said Christmas day..it was the 30th.
This is the hard part. The Persistence was looking for clothing evidence. I don't believe they expected to find any bones or especially a skull in the water after all that time. I believe they got caught up in emotion, more than logic when they saw the image that looked like a skull. Logic says it would not be there. So I believe the visual showed it was not a skull. But there is still fabric there...and so still some hope. Until they can recover the fabric and have it tested..no one knows if Natalee was disposed of there or not. So the next step is to gather the fabric and have it tested. Kyle found out later..I believe it was late February, that the handling of the fabric was very suspect..thus the increased concerns and the reaching out to Beth.

So the dive on December 30th was a thumbs down that it wasn't a scull in the trap?  And the diver that gave the thumbs down was Tim Trahan?  And Tim Trahan works with / for John Silvetti.  And Kyle was an employee that had a limited job? 

And when the dive was done on January 7th we are to believe that the only thing they were going to collect was material?  Not human remains?  This is what is cloudy for me.

I know you don't have all the answers lastly and I'm not trying to hold your feet to the fire, but please explain this as best you can.

Personally I'll always believe from the pictures that I have seen posted here at SM that it was human remains and that it was Natalee.

My understanding is this, from the photos it appears to be a skull...from the visual it does not appear to be a skull...and remember...they weren't expecting to find a skull...it had been too long. But there was definitely cloth in there, so I believe they were still excited about finding the cloth. The fact that they had found the trap, in about the exact location as Tim predicted it would be, with what appeared to be clothing material, was miraculous to them all. Even without out the skull, it still looked hopeful.

from the photos it appears to be a skull...from the visual it does not appear to be a skull...

this is confusing to me...what could it have been? ...  are you saying that after ALE dove and took away the contents of the cage that item that appeared to be skull and did not appear to be a skull...was suspect?

I think it was a series of events..all talked about here, that happened after..and some not discussed here..like how long it took the FBI to get the evidence, that caused Kyle to start analysing everything. But his focus has been more on the material than the skull..so I don't think they believed it was a skull even after all the suspicious activity that happened after. But I will ask and post after I am sure. Right now, that is just my guess based on what we have discussed so far.

[snoopy]

The picture that I am getting is that Kyle made mistakes of trust.  He was a pawn.  His hands were tied.

If ldstlou tells me that the family tells her that they were sent the pictures in an appropriate amount of time then that is good enough for me.

My focus now is on Tim Trahan and John Silvetti.  I think a deal was struck. JMHO

And I've got the other eye on the latest news out of Aruba about Jan Vanderstratten.  This is what will bring this whole thing down.

Multi-task.

[snoopy]

ldstlou,

What are your thoughts about the "thumbs down" on Dec. 30th?

I think a lot of us are having trouble with the fact that a dive was planned for Jan. 7th to retrieve the contents/evidence that on the 30th were a 'thumbs down'.

Hope that makes sense....

I am sorry I said Christmas day..it was the 30th.
This is the hard part. The Persistence was looking for clothing evidence. I don't believe they expected to find any bones or especially a skull in the water after all that time. I believe they got caught up in emotion, more than logic when they saw the image that looked like a skull. Logic says it would not be there. So I believe the visual showed it was not a skull. But there is still fabric there...and so still some hope. Until they can recover the fabric and have it tested..no one knows if Natalee was disposed of there or not. So the next step is to gather the fabric and have it tested. Kyle found out later..I believe it was late February, that the handling of the fabric was very suspect..thus the increased concerns and the reaching out to Beth.

So the dive on December 30th was a thumbs down that it wasn't a scull in the trap?  And the diver that gave the thumbs down was Tim Trahan?  And Tim Trahan works with / for John Silvetti.  And Kyle was an employee that had a limited job? 

And when the dive was done on January 7th we are to believe that the only thing they were going to collect was material?  Not human remains?  This is what is cloudy for me.

I know you don't have all the answers ldstlou and I'm not trying to hold your feet to the fire, but please explain this as best you can.

Personally I'll always believe from the pictures that I have seen posted here at SM that it was human remains and that it was Natalee.

My understanding is this, from the photos it appears to be a skull...from the visual it does not appear to be a skull...and remember...they weren't expecting to find a skull...it had been too long. But there was definitely cloth in there, so I believe they were still excited about finding the cloth. The fact that they had found the trap, in about the exact location as Tim predicted it would be, with what appeared to be clothing material, was miraculous to them all. Even without out the skull, it still looked hopeful.

Understood.  Now since seeing the bags of evidence in the cage and what appears to me to be human bones isn't it odd that Tim Trahan would give a thumbs down?  I mean we have all seen the bags of evidence in the cage and I'm pretty sure that most of us agree that we see human bones.

This isn't against you lastly.  Just making observations.

The only answer I have for that is that bones were not expected to be found in the ocean after all that time. Does that make sense? If they were bones, it would be the ultimate miracle. So chances are they were not bones. But the problem is, no one will ever know for sure if they were or not because the arubans went straight to their boat and left instead of boarding the Persistence like they were supposed to. But regardless, the material found could have proven one way or the other if it was Natalee. But arubans rushed off with it and then took 21 days to get the evidence to FBI to test. Why? I don't feel that this was done by the crew of the Persistence, but to the crew of the Persistence by the Arubans..just like they did with every other bit of evidence that has been found over the years.

Understood. 

[ldstlou]

Sorry,,,fell out of the cage and couldn't get back in!!! lol

[Kat_Gram]

So, I checked the membership rolls, Caps joined DEC 20, 2007.
Perfect timing. Has made > 1000 posts. Can anyone think of one fact CAPS dispensed ?
Kyle said that he felt CAPS was one step away from Dirty Hand. Maybe it's old Dirty Hand himself.
ps I think Kyle had misgivings but he did nothing wrong personally. I also think there is a good likelyhood that Natalee was in that cage and CAPS was here for a purpose.  IMO

OK here's a factoid : CAPS says that cage weighs 400 lbs and a crane would be needed, so that didn't fit the Natalee scenario. From that it didn't sound like something that Daury could do.

[ldstlou]

What's the explanation for the sudden departure of the ship AFTER requesting funds to continue a search?  Why-when so many heeded that call for funds by sending in the donations-did they just up and leave without giving it a chance to collect the needed funds?  What were the funds for IF they thought they had been "had" by the Aruban OE back in Jan.07?

They didn't leave suddenly.  It was announced and documented. When Louis said he was on empty, they tried to come up with some funds by calling for donations and reaching out to other industry folk, but that failed so they left.  The donations they recieved were a small fraction of what was needed to continue searching offshore Aruba.  The funds that were received by TES designated to the search effort after the call for donations were returned to the people who donated the monies.  They couldn't afford to just suspend the search while funds were trickling in. It cost almost as much to sit by the dock as it cost to keep going.  The search cost 10s of thousands per day. I don't think the donations even amounted to $10K, (- half a day of searching perhaps) despite the outpouring of support by so many who are close to the case.

[ldstlou]

ldstlou,

What are your thoughts about the "thumbs down" on Dec. 30th?

I think a lot of us are having trouble with the fact that a dive was planned for Jan. 7th to retrieve the contents/evidence that on the 30th were a 'thumbs down'.

Hope that makes sense....

I am sorry I said Christmas day..it was the 30th.
This is the hard part. The Persistence was looking for clothing evidence. I don't believe they expected to find any bones or especially a skull in the water after all that time. I believe they got caught up in emotion, more than logic when they saw the image that looked like a skull. Logic says it would not be there. So I believe the visual showed it was not a skull. But there is still fabric there...and so still some hope. Until they can recover the fabric and have it tested..no one knows if Natalee was disposed of there or not. So the next step is to gather the fabric and have it tested. Kyle found out later..I believe it was late February, that the handling of the fabric was very suspect..thus the increased concerns and the reaching out to Beth.

So the dive on December 30th was a thumbs down that it wasn't a scull in the trap?  And the diver that gave the thumbs down was Tim Trahan?  And Tim Trahan works with / for John Silvetti.  And Kyle was an employee that had a limited job? 

And when the dive was done on January 7th we are to believe that the only thing they were going to collect was material?  Not human remains?  This is what is cloudy for me.

I know you don't have all the answers ldstlou and I'm not trying to hold your feet to the fire, but please explain this as best you can.

Personally I'll always believe from the pictures that I have seen posted here at SM that it was human remains and that it was Natalee.

My understanding is this, from the photos it appears to be a skull...from the visual it does not appear to be a skull...and remember...they weren't expecting to find a skull...it had been too long. But there was definately cloth in there, so I believe they were still excited about finding the cloth. The fact that they had found the trap, in about the exact loation as Tim predicted it would be, with what appeared to be clothing material, was miraculous to them all. Even without out the skull, it still looked hopeful.

I'm confused again.  Please be patient with me here, I'm not trying to be rude to you at all.

If it still looked hopeful, then why would Tim call Dave and say it wasn't her?  Why, if they saw the cloth (which I thought was hidden under the sandbar that had settled on top of said material and wasn't discovered until the contents were sampled on the 7th) did they decide it had nothing to do with Natalee?  Who decided it had nothing to do with Natalee?  Was that Tim Trahan?

I don't feel right about answering this one because I have never spoken to Tim or Dave. But the visual showed it was not a skull. There was still the material to collect and test though, which is what they were expecting to find when they began the search. Does that make sense?