Natalee Case Discussion #783 12/6/08 - 12/8/08

[texasmom]

I can understand why some would question who Caps is, especially those who haven't been here all the time he has.  Some have not had as much communication with him as others.  I still believe he is one of the good guys.  I believe he has tried to help find the answers and has spent a lot of time researching any and all possibilities.  I have at times been concerned that others may have taken advantage of him to further their own agendas. 

But Caps is quite capable of taking care of himself, of that I have no doubt.

I believe he is one of the good guys, too.

I also believe CAPS is one of the good guys looking for Justice for Natalee.
I don't understand why some think it can only be CAPS way or Kermits way. I think that both versions could be complementary, in that Kermits version describes the disposal, and CAPS version describes the crime.

Robots, I mean billb,

My impression is that perhaps some of the folks from the secret forum group may be using the Caps argument as a strawman to sidetrack us from the Kyle discussion. 

Funny how it keeps getting thrown up out of nowhere in the middle of all this.

Again, my impression only.   

Lifesong,
I see what you mean, and it  seems some of those same folks are also trying to deflect Kermits posts as somehow being unfair because they somehow break a code of silence...WTH.
Like Frank, Rob, wreck, blah, Janet, San, Blonde, Klaas and so many others, mho this forum is not being
about withholding info and asking others to believe you because you know more than the rest....this forum is about finding justice for Natalee. Wherever that may lead, that is the point and if some are offended...Oh well.
Bring Natalee home. Anything after that is extra....but I'd love to see all the conspirators face the music, in this life or the next....

I HATE THEM ALL!

WE HATE THEM ALL TOO, AND WE LOVE YOU!!!!  WELCOME HOME!!!!!   

[Keepthefaith]

I can understand why some would question who Caps is, especially those who haven't been here all the time he has.  Some have not had as much communication with him as others.  I still believe he is one of the good guys.  I believe he has tried to help find the answers and has spent a lot of time researching any and all possibilities.  I have at times been concerned that others may have taken advantage of him to further their own agendas. 

But Caps is quite capable of taking care of himself, of that I have no doubt.

I believe he is one of the good guys, too.

I also believe CAPS is one of the good guys looking for Justice for Natalee.
I don't understand why some think it can only be CAPS way or Kermits way. I think that both versions could be complementary, in that Kermits version describes the disposal, and CAPS version describes the crime.

Robots, I mean billb,

My impression is that perhaps some of the folks from the secret forum group may be using the Caps argument as a strawman to sidetrack us from the Kyle discussion. 

Funny how it keeps getting thrown up out of nowhere in the middle of all this.

Again, my impression only.   

Lifesong ... I do not have clue regarding the "secret forum".  Nobody invited me.

 

However ... this wannabe detective have not quite figured out the CAPS/PERSISTANCE connection but ... I definitely believe there is.

GOOD NIGHT MONKEYS!!!  GOOD NIGHT ZOO GEEPERS!!!

Janet

Goodnight Janet.Thanx for the keeping the focus on the words of Kyle.If he wants to dispute is own words he knows where to do it....

[Anna]

Meanwhile, Beth and Dave suffer and Natalee remains dead for another Christmas. And all this energy is wasted.

At a moment when we are starting, long over-due, to look at the first 48 hours and a direct  accusation of what we've known all along, you're focusing of underwater pictures?

Skipping past the van der straaten involvement, the van der sloot house, and the actual crimes committed against Natalee in her last moments?

And by Paulus van der sloot when she was alive.

How can anyone picture Natalee's face right now and waste time making this about anything other than bringing her home?

Confrontation can be a great moment in the creative process but this ain't it.

Thanks, Frank.

I'm spending my energy writing to the members of the Dutch parliament, asking that they initiate an investigation of the corruption in the Aruban government, resulting in the violation of Natalee Holloway's human rights. 

Information provided by Caesu snipped from post on page five of this thread:

so through article 43 is the only option for Aruba

that's why i keep repeating that it is important to contact the Dutch members of Parliament.
and the coming week is crucial with debates on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday - leading op to the Round Table Conference between the three Prime-Ministers with Balkenende presiding in Curaçao on December 15th.

list of members of Parliament of the Aruban/Antilles committee:
http://www.tweedekamer.nl/kamerleden/commissies/NAAZ/index.jsp#0
names on top of the list are the highest ranking members.
(e-mail will appear if you click on a name and "Naar persoonlijke pagina").


As soon as I figure out the etiquette for writing to a member of the Dutch Parliament, I am writing them all.
Wanna help me?

We do really need to keep the pressure on for the next couple of weeks as this is our best chance at bringing the Rudy Croes declaration to the attention of those who can actually do something about it.

And I believe the Internal Affairs Division of the Dutch police is called the Rijksrecherche.

[Keepthefaith]

Ok, I've been reviewing the posts and it appears nothing has changed or been cleared up at all.

Kermit says the Jan. 7th footage was only recently turned over to the FBI and the family.

Regarding the same Jan. 7th footage, all ldstlou categorically stated was that she didn't know when it was turned over to the FBI and neither did Kyle, but now the FBI does have it and the family, Jug specifically, is aware of it.

This means Kermit was telling the truth and Kyle wasn't the one who turned over the footage and there's no reason to believe it was "turned over in a timely fashion by another member of the Persistence team" - that was the Dec. 30th footage.

Someone please set me straight if I've got it wrong.

Not much from what i understand!This was the worst Dog and pony show i've seen.People need to quit speaking for Kyle.He's grown.come discuss this where people will ask tough questions in order to get to the truth!He chose not to discuss this with Kermit.Why?????I'm standing with the FROG until Kyle can sway me any other way.Have a feeling that won't happen..Hope i'm wrong.Let's stay focused with what we know.Back to how things transpired on the Persistence,the chain of command,who was in charge on the Persistence,protocal,who chose when to dive and why,who was the chief contact on the persistence in regards to the Arubans,etc,etc,etc....

[snoopy]

I can understand why some would question who Caps is, especially those who haven't been here all the time he has.  Some have not had as much communication with him as others.  I still believe he is one of the good guys.  I believe he has tried to help find the answers and has spent a lot of time researching any and all possibilities.  I have at times been concerned that others may have taken advantage of him to further their own agendas. 

But Caps is quite capable of taking care of himself, of that I have no doubt.

I believe he is one of the good guys, too.

I also believe CAPS is one of the good guys looking for Justice for Natalee.
I don't understand why some think it can only be CAPS way or Kermits way. I think that both versions could be complementary, in that Kermits version describes the disposal, and CAPS version describes the crime.

Agreed.

[Kermit]

 #592 on: Today at 08:35:51 PM  Idstlou said:
The only answer I have for that is that bones were not expected to be found in the ocean after all that time. Does that make sense? If they were bones, it would be the ultimate miracle. So chances are they were not bones. But the problem is, no one will ever know for sure if they were or not because the arubans went straight to their boat and left instead of boarding the Persistence like they were supposed to. But regardless, the material found could have proven one way or the other if it was Natalee. But arubans rushed off with it and then took 21 days to get the evidence to FBI to test. Why? I don't feel that this was done by the crew of the Persistence, but to the crew of the Persistence by the Arubans..just like they did with every other bit of evidence that has been found over the years.
 

Reply #736 on: March 18, 2008, 12:05:16 PM kyle said:
"The famous "thumbs down" - Tim Trahan said he could not conclusively see human skeletal remains. The signals were: One thumb up for skeletal remains (body), two thumbs up for Natalee. When Tim came out of the water as seen on camera in the Dateline special, he was winded from the dive and gave a short answer of "No, nothing".  He (along with many of us) were expecting something very clear and immediately identifiable.  It wasn't so clear or obvious as he (and we, along with Tim Miller) expected and hoped upon visual-only inspection.
 Tim (along with myself) didn't expect an intact skeleton.  We expected a high level of scavenging by small to moderate sized predators including crustaceans, grouper, small sharks..etc. which (IMO) would likely spread any remains radially away from the trap opening.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366317#msg366317


ERROR in your information Idstlou

If they did not expect to find any bones why would they have a thumbs-up signal if he saw skeleton remains?

Tim (along with myself) didn't expect an intact skeleton.  We expected a high level of scavenging by small to moderate sized predators including crustaceans, grouper, small sharks..etc. which (IMO) would likely spread any remains radially away from the trap opening
 
The signals were: One thumb up for skeletal remains (body), two thumbs up for Natalee



#622 on: Today at 09:31:20 PM   ldstlou
 have to get a firm statement on this. Here is what I do know. Hope this helps.
Members of Quantico were on the Persistence, they were there when the dive was done on the 30th and actually told a member of Dateline it was not Natalee and they could use the footage in the show. Members of the Persistence did not learn this until later and called Dateline and got them to NOT air the footage. The FBI told Dateline they could not air the full footage of the case because it was under investigation. Dateline had to take the additional footage out of their show, so I know they had the footage based on this info
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4216.620
 
According to Kyle that was the FBI they gave him permission
 
#732 on: March 18, 2008, 11:47:36 AM
 Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, Dateline and all comments in the Dateline special are pertaining to information available as of the Dec-30th dive, which was visual inspection only.  The trap contents weren't sampled until the 7th of January.  Neither Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, or Dateline were on board during this time.  Further, the forensic testing wasn't completed until early February.  The FBI comment regarding the level of case significance was premature and I believe (IMO-but with good reason) it was induced by Tim Uelinger's (Dateline producer) pressuring of the FBI contact for immediate answers.  Getting the response of nothing case significant gave Dateline a legal foothold to show the trap in their 1 hr special.  This response likely came before the FBI even received the samples for testing.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366312#msg366312

Why would he send photos from the December 30 dive  to the FBI if they had been on board the boat?
 
#79 on: March 03, 2008, 01:47:47 PM
Video 2: Dec 30th - ROV and Diver visual-only inspection of trap.  This is the dive Dateline and Tim Miller witnessed, also the dive footage the screen captures I made came from that were posted by Robin at BNH.  I sent these 6 screen shots to the FBI and the FBI only. I was shocked to see them posted.  I thought we had a security breach on the boat from my workstation or a leak from the FBI.  Turns out the FBI gave them to Dave H. after he couldn't get them from me.  After Tim Miller told Dave that we found her in a trap with 99.9% certainty (this is pre-diver inspection), Dave very reasonably requested them from me.  I badly wanted to send them to him, but couldn't.  Apparently, shortly therafter the FBI send the screen shots to Dave anyway, and therefore Robin had them.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2668.msg360047#msg360047

[Helen Back]

I can understand why some would question who Caps is, especially those who haven't been here all the time he has.  Some have not had as much communication with him as others.  I still believe he is one of the good guys.  I believe he has tried to help find the answers and has spent a lot of time researching any and all possibilities.  I have at times been concerned that others may have taken advantage of him to further their own agendas. 

But Caps is quite capable of taking care of himself, of that I have no doubt.

I believe he is one of the good guys, too.

I also believe CAPS is one of the good guys looking for Justice for Natalee.
I don't understand why some think it can only be CAPS way or Kermits way. I think that both versions could be complementary, in that Kermits version describes the disposal, and CAPS version describes the crime.

Robots, I mean billb,

My impression is that perhaps some of the folks from the secret forum group may be using the Caps argument as a strawman to sidetrack us from the Kyle discussion. 

Funny how it keeps getting thrown up out of nowhere in the middle of all this.

Again, my impression only.   

Lifesong,
I see what you mean, and it  seems some of those same folks are also trying to deflect Kermits posts as somehow being unfair because they somehow break a code of silence...WTH.
Like Frank, Rob, wreck, blah, Janet, San, Blonde, Klaas and so many others, mho this forum is not being
about withholding info and asking others to believe you because you know more than the rest....this forum is about finding justice for Natalee. Wherever that may lead, that is the point and if some are offended...Oh well.
Bring Natalee home. Anything after that is extra....but I'd love to see all the conspirators face the music, in this life or the next....

I HATE THEM ALL!

WE HATE THEM ALL TOO, AND WE LOVE YOU!!!!  WELCOME HOME!!!!!   

AAAWWWW now see, this makes today worth it.  Welcome back!

Hey Anna,

Caesu gave us a link to the email addresses of the Dutch ministers who can call for an investigation of the corruption:

http://www.tweedekamer.nl/kamerleden/commissies/NAAZ/index.jsp#0

(for more info see Caesu's post on page 5 of this thread)
 

[Keepthefaith]

#592 on: Today at 08:35:51 PM  Idstlou said:
The only answer I have for that is that bones were not expected to be found in the ocean after all that time. Does that make sense? If they were bones, it would be the ultimate miracle. So chances are they were not bones. But the problem is, no one will ever know for sure if they were or not because the arubans went straight to their boat and left instead of boarding the Persistence like they were supposed to. But regardless, the material found could have proven one way or the other if it was Natalee. But arubans rushed off with it and then took 21 days to get the evidence to FBI to test. Why? I don't feel that this was done by the crew of the Persistence, but to the crew of the Persistence by the Arubans..just like they did with every other bit of evidence that has been found over the years.
 

Reply #736 on: March 18, 2008, 12:05:16 PM kyle said:
"The famous "thumbs down" - Tim Trahan said he could not conclusively see human skeletal remains. The signals were: One thumb up for skeletal remains (body), two thumbs up for Natalee. When Tim came out of the water as seen on camera in the Dateline special, he was winded from the dive and gave a short answer of "No, nothing".  He (along with many of us) were expecting something very clear and immediately identifiable.  It wasn't so clear or obvious as he (and we, along with Tim Miller) expected and hoped upon visual-only inspection.
 Tim (along with myself) didn't expect an intact skeleton.  We expected a high level of scavenging by small to moderate sized predators including crustaceans, grouper, small sharks..etc. which (IMO) would likely spread any remains radially away from the trap opening.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366317#msg366317


ERROR in your information Idstlou

If they did not expect to find any bones why would they have a thumbs-up signal if he saw skeleton remains?

Tim (along with myself) didn't expect an intact skeleton.  We expected a high level of scavenging by small to moderate sized predators including crustaceans, grouper, small sharks..etc. which (IMO) would likely spread any remains radially away from the trap opening
 
The signals were: One thumb up for skeletal remains (body), two thumbs up for Natalee



#622 on: Today at 09:31:20 PM   ldstlou
 have to get a firm statement on this. Here is what I do know. Hope this helps.
Members of Quantico were on the Persistence, they were there when the dive was done on the 30th and actually told a member of Dateline it was not Natalee and they could use the footage in the show. Members of the Persistence did not learn this until later and called Dateline and got them to NOT air the footage. The FBI told Dateline they could not air the full footage of the case because it was under investigation. Dateline had to take the additional footage out of their show, so I know they had the footage based on this info
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4216.620
 
According to Kyle that was the FBI they gave him permission
 
#732 on: March 18, 2008, 11:47:36 AM
 Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, Dateline and all comments in the Dateline special are pertaining to information available as of the Dec-30th dive, which was visual inspection only.  The trap contents weren't sampled until the 7th of January.  Neither Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, or Dateline were on board during this time.  Further, the forensic testing wasn't completed until early February.  The FBI comment regarding the level of case significance was premature and I believe (IMO-but with good reason) it was induced by Tim Uelinger's (Dateline producer) pressuring of the FBI contact for immediate answers.  Getting the response of nothing case significant gave Dateline a legal foothold to show the trap in their 1 hr special.  This response likely came before the FBI even received the samples for testing.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366312#msg366312

Why would he send photos from the December 30 dive  to the FBI if they had been on board the boat?
 
#79 on: March 03, 2008, 01:47:47 PM
Video 2: Dec 30th - ROV and Diver visual-only inspection of trap.  This is the dive Dateline and Tim Miller witnessed, also the dive footage the screen captures I made came from that were posted by Robin at BNH.  I sent these 6 screen shots to the FBI and the FBI only. I was shocked to see them posted.  I thought we had a security breach on the boat from my workstation or a leak from the FBI.  Turns out the FBI gave them to Dave H. after he couldn't get them from me.  After Tim Miller told Dave that we found her in a trap with 99.9% certainty (this is pre-diver inspection), Dave very reasonably requested them from me.  I badly wanted to send them to him, but couldn't.  Apparently, shortly therafter the FBI send the screen shots to Dave anyway, and therefore Robin had them.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2668.msg360047#msg360047

Thanx Kermit.Who was the chief contact on the Persistence in regards to the Arubans if you know??

[Tamikosmom]

I can understand why some would question who Caps is, especially those who haven't been here all the time he has.  Some have not had as much communication with him as others.  I still believe he is one of the good guys.  I believe he has tried to help find the answers and has spent a lot of time researching any and all possibilities.  I have at times been concerned that others may have taken advantage of him to further their own agendas. 

But Caps is quite capable of taking care of himself, of that I have no doubt.

I believe he is one of the good guys, too.

I also believe CAPS is one of the good guys looking for Justice for Natalee.
I don't understand why some think it can only be CAPS way or Kermits way. I think that both versions could be complementary, in that Kermits version describes the disposal, and CAPS version describes the crime.

Robots, I mean billb,

My impression is that perhaps some of the folks from the secret forum group may be using the Caps argument as a strawman to sidetrack us from the Kyle discussion. 

Funny how it keeps getting thrown up out of nowhere in the middle of all this.

Again, my impression only.   

Lifesong ... I do not have clue regarding the "secret forum".  Nobody invited me.

 

However ... this wannabe detective have not quite figured out the CAPS/PERSISTANCE connection but ... I definitely believe there is.

GOOD NIGHT MONKEYS!!!  GOOD NIGHT ZOO GEEPERS!!!

Janet

Goodnight Janet.Thanx for the keeping the focus on the words of Kyle.If he wants to dispute is own words he knows where to do it....

There is no way that Jug Twitty has been privy to all of Kyle's words ... in email ... in posts to a "secret forum" and ... in posts to the SM site ...  and still maintain that the motives and happenings encompassing the Persistence endeavor was all about justice for his precious step-daughter.

Kyle's words imply that he believes that Natalee's remains could possibly have been in that trap which the Arubans took possession of without a protest or challenge from John Silvetti.  The implication of John Silvetti's actions is ... all hope is gone that the family will every be affored the opportunity to bring their Natalee home ... home to American soil.

Kyle's professional position on the Persistence implies he has first hand knowledge of what was said and done in regards to the chain of command and ... he has first hand knowledge of the John Silvetti/ALE connection.  In other words ... Kyle's words expose the Persistence endeavor for what it was ... THE GRAND FINALE' TO THE ARUBAN COVERUP!

Janet

[Keepthefaith]

I can understand why some would question who Caps is, especially those who haven't been here all the time he has.  Some have not had as much communication with him as others.  I still believe he is one of the good guys.  I believe he has tried to help find the answers and has spent a lot of time researching any and all possibilities.  I have at times been concerned that others may have taken advantage of him to further their own agendas. 

But Caps is quite capable of taking care of himself, of that I have no doubt.

I believe he is one of the good guys, too.

I also believe CAPS is one of the good guys looking for Justice for Natalee.
I don't understand why some think it can only be CAPS way or Kermits way. I think that both versions could be complementary, in that Kermits version describes the disposal, and CAPS version describes the crime.

Robots, I mean billb,

My impression is that perhaps some of the folks from the secret forum group may be using the Caps argument as a strawman to sidetrack us from the Kyle discussion. 

Funny how it keeps getting thrown up out of nowhere in the middle of all this.

Again, my impression only.   

Lifesong ... I do not have clue regarding the "secret forum".  Nobody invited me.

 

However ... this wannabe detective have not quite figured out the CAPS/PERSISTANCE connection but ... I definitely believe there is.

GOOD NIGHT MONKEYS!!!  GOOD NIGHT ZOO GEEPERS!!!

Janet

Goodnight Janet.Thanx for the keeping the focus on the words of Kyle.If he wants to dispute is own words he knows where to do it....

There is no way that Jug Twitty has been privy to all of Kyle's words ... in email ... in posts to a "secret forum" and ... in posts to the SM site ...  and still maintain that the motives and happenings encompassing the Persistence endeavor was all about justice for his precious step-daughter.

Kyle's words imply that he believes that Natalee's remains could possibly have been in that trap which the Arubans took possession of without a protest or challenge from John Silvetti.  The implication of John Silvetti's actions is ... all hope is gone that the family will every be affored the opportunity to bring their Natalee home ... home to American soil.

Kyle's professional position on the Persistence implies he has first hand knowledge of what was said and done in regards to the chain of command and ... he has first hand knowledge of the John Silvetti/ALE connection.  In other words ... Kyle's words expose the Persistence endeavor for what it was ... THE GRAND FINALE' TO THE ARUBAN COVERUP!

Janet

This is the way i lean Janet.We don't hear to much about the Protocal do we..

[snoopy]

Ok, I've been reviewing the posts and it appears nothing has changed or been cleared up at all.

Kermit says the Jan. 7th footage was only recently turned over to the FBI and the family.

Regarding the same Jan. 7th footage, all ldstlou categorically stated was that she didn't know when it was turned over to the FBI and neither did Kyle, but now the FBI does have it and the family, Jug specifically, is aware of it.

This means Kermit was telling the truth and Kyle wasn't the one who turned over the footage and there's no reason to believe it was "turned over in a timely fashion by another member of the Persistence team" - that was the Dec. 30th footage.

Someone please set me straight if I've got it wrong.

Not much from what i understand!This was the worst Dog and pony show i've seen.People need to quit speaking for Kyle.He's grown.come discuss this where people will ask tough questions in order to get to the truth!He chose not to discuss this with Kermit.Why?????I'm standing with the FROG until Kyle can sway me any other way.Have a feeling that won't happen..Hope i'm wrong.Let's stay focused with what we know.Back to how things transpired on the Persistence,the chain of command,who was in charge on the Persistence,protocal,who chose when to dive and why,who was the chief contact on the persistence in regards to the Arubans,etc,etc,etc....

I called ldstlou for one reason and one reason only this evening.  I wanted to ask her a specific question.  And that was did Jug and the family know about the photos that Kermit posted here this past week in a timely manner.  She ask him and his reply was that yes they had known about them for some time.

I then told her that she needed to come back here and lay it out there.  She did.

I also voiced my concerns about some of the things Kyle was telling others but yet was contridicting himself on this forum.

I still ahve some reservations about Kyle.  It is possible that some the things we are being told has been taken out of text.

I have no reason to not believe Kermit.  He / she has made a compelling argument.

But I do know that the family has said that they have known about the pictures for some time.

This does not mean that someone is lieing blah blah blah.

Yes Kyle should come back here and explain himself, and I told lsdtlou to tell him that.

So I sure hope you weren't meaning I was involved in a dog and pony show.  I just want the freakin truth.

[Keepthefaith]

Kermit.Do we have any idea WTH the crew did from Dec 30th till Jan 7th???This makes me sick..

[Magnolia]

I think what we experienced tonight was a hijacking of sorts.
Friends of Kyle took over the board to offer soft, simple, mis
information to defend Kyle.  Maybe they are confused.
I think Kyle may be a little afraid of going to jail for the things
he has done, but why send women to defend him.  Why can't he
come himself?

[Keepthefaith]

Ok, I've been reviewing the posts and it appears nothing has changed or been cleared up at all.

Kermit says the Jan. 7th footage was only recently turned over to the FBI and the family.

Regarding the same Jan. 7th footage, all ldstlou categorically stated was that she didn't know when it was turned over to the FBI and neither did Kyle, but now the FBI does have it and the family, Jug specifically, is aware of it.

This means Kermit was telling the truth and Kyle wasn't the one who turned over the footage and there's no reason to believe it was "turned over in a timely fashion by another member of the Persistence team" - that was the Dec. 30th footage.

Someone please set me straight if I've got it wrong.

Not much from what i understand!This was the worst Dog and pony show i've seen.People need to quit speaking for Kyle.He's grown.come discuss this where people will ask tough questions in order to get to the truth!He chose not to discuss this with Kermit.Why?????I'm standing with the FROG until Kyle can sway me any other way.Have a feeling that won't happen..Hope i'm wrong.Let's stay focused with what we know.Back to how things transpired on the Persistence,the chain of command,who was in charge on the Persistence,protocal,who chose when to dive and why,who was the chief contact on the persistence in regards to the Arubans,etc,etc,etc....

I called ldstlou for one reason and one reason only this evening.  I wanted to ask her a specific question.  And that was did Jug and the family know about the photos that Kermit posted here this past week in a timely manner.  She ask him and his reply was that yes they had known about them for some time.

I then told her that she needed to come back here and lay it out there.  She did.

I also voiced my concerns about some of the things Kyle was telling others but yet was contridicting himself on this forum.

I still ahve some reservations about Kyle.  It is possible that some the things we are being told has been taken out of text.

I have no reason to not believe Kermit.  He / she has made a compelling argument.

But I do know that the family has said that they have known about the pictures for some time.

This does not mean that someone is lieing blah blah blah.

Yes Kyle should come back here and explain himself, and I told lsdtlou to tell him that.

So I sure hope you weren't meaning I was involved in a dog and pony show.  I just want the freakin truth.

From what i gather frommbeing on here there's not to many people that don't think that it was a great possibilty that Natalee was in that cage.For no one on the Persistence to take samples of the contents of that cage is horrific in my opinion!

[texasmom]

Snoopy,
I can't speak for anyone else but I think you did your best to get to the truth.  I think that's a good thing.  However, no one can ever speak for someone better than that person can speak for themself in my opinion.  That's my only problem with ldstlou's attempts tonight. 

If Kyle has nothing to hide, he should come here and speak for himself.

It's time for all the truth to come out, good or bad. 

It's all about Justice for Natalee, nothing else.

[snoopy]

#592 on: Today at 08:35:51 PM  Idstlou said:
The only answer I have for that is that bones were not expected to be found in the ocean after all that time. Does that make sense? If they were bones, it would be the ultimate miracle. So chances are they were not bones. But the problem is, no one will ever know for sure if they were or not because the arubans went straight to their boat and left instead of boarding the Persistence like they were supposed to. But regardless, the material found could have proven one way or the other if it was Natalee. But arubans rushed off with it and then took 21 days to get the evidence to FBI to test. Why? I don't feel that this was done by the crew of the Persistence, but to the crew of the Persistence by the Arubans..just like they did with every other bit of evidence that has been found over the years.
 

Reply #736 on: March 18, 2008, 12:05:16 PM kyle said:
"The famous "thumbs down" - Tim Trahan said he could not conclusively see human skeletal remains. The signals were: One thumb up for skeletal remains (body), two thumbs up for Natalee. When Tim came out of the water as seen on camera in the Dateline special, he was winded from the dive and gave a short answer of "No, nothing".  He (along with many of us) were expecting something very clear and immediately identifiable.  It wasn't so clear or obvious as he (and we, along with Tim Miller) expected and hoped upon visual-only inspection.
 Tim (along with myself) didn't expect an intact skeleton.  We expected a high level of scavenging by small to moderate sized predators including crustaceans, grouper, small sharks..etc. which (IMO) would likely spread any remains radially away from the trap opening.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366317#msg366317


ERROR in your information Idstlou

If they did not expect to find any bones why would they have a thumbs-up signal if he saw skeleton remains?

Tim (along with myself) didn't expect an intact skeleton.  We expected a high level of scavenging by small to moderate sized predators including crustaceans, grouper, small sharks..etc. which (IMO) would likely spread any remains radially away from the trap opening
 
The signals were: One thumb up for skeletal remains (body), two thumbs up for Natalee



#622 on: Today at 09:31:20 PM   ldstlou
 have to get a firm statement on this. Here is what I do know. Hope this helps.
Members of Quantico were on the Persistence, they were there when the dive was done on the 30th and actually told a member of Dateline it was not Natalee and they could use the footage in the show. Members of the Persistence did not learn this until later and called Dateline and got them to NOT air the footage. The FBI told Dateline they could not air the full footage of the case because it was under investigation. Dateline had to take the additional footage out of their show, so I know they had the footage based on this info
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4216.620
 
According to Kyle that was the FBI they gave him permission
 
#732 on: March 18, 2008, 11:47:36 AM
 Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, Dateline and all comments in the Dateline special are pertaining to information available as of the Dec-30th dive, which was visual inspection only.  The trap contents weren't sampled until the 7th of January.  Neither Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, or Dateline were on board during this time.  Further, the forensic testing wasn't completed until early February.  The FBI comment regarding the level of case significance was premature and I believe (IMO-but with good reason) it was induced by Tim Uelinger's (Dateline producer) pressuring of the FBI contact for immediate answers.  Getting the response of nothing case significant gave Dateline a legal foothold to show the trap in their 1 hr special.  This response likely came before the FBI even received the samples for testing.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366312#msg366312

Why would he send photos from the December 30 dive  to the FBI if they had been on board the boat?
 
#79 on: March 03, 2008, 01:47:47 PM
Video 2: Dec 30th - ROV and Diver visual-only inspection of trap.  This is the dive Dateline and Tim Miller witnessed, also the dive footage the screen captures I made came from that were posted by Robin at BNH.  I sent these 6 screen shots to the FBI and the FBI only. I was shocked to see them posted.  I thought we had a security breach on the boat from my workstation or a leak from the FBI.  Turns out the FBI gave them to Dave H. after he couldn't get them from me.  After Tim Miller told Dave that we found her in a trap with 99.9% certainty (this is pre-diver inspection), Dave very reasonably requested them from me.  I badly wanted to send them to him, but couldn't.  Apparently, shortly therafter the FBI send the screen shots to Dave anyway, and therefore Robin had them.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2668.msg360047#msg360047

So there were no FBI/Quantico people on board?  Is that another lie?

[crazybabyborg]

For real, texasmom? Is it really him?? 

[Keepthefaith]

I think what we experienced tonight was a hijacking of sorts.
Friends of Kyle took over the board to offer soft, simple, mis
information to defend Kyle.  Maybe they are confused.
I think Kyle may be a little afraid of going to jail for the things
he has done, but why send women to defend him.  Why can't he
come himself?

I agree.Quit speaking for Kyle.He can take all the time in the world and go through Kermit's posts and help all of us Monkey's understand what transpired on the Persistence.What everyone's roles were,who initiated the Arubans coming out on the 7th...He's got all the answers we need but is unwilling at this time to speak for himself.Why???

[Keepthefaith]

#592 on: Today at 08:35:51 PM  Idstlou said:
The only answer I have for that is that bones were not expected to be found in the ocean after all that time. Does that make sense? If they were bones, it would be the ultimate miracle. So chances are they were not bones. But the problem is, no one will ever know for sure if they were or not because the arubans went straight to their boat and left instead of boarding the Persistence like they were supposed to. But regardless, the material found could have proven one way or the other if it was Natalee. But arubans rushed off with it and then took 21 days to get the evidence to FBI to test. Why? I don't feel that this was done by the crew of the Persistence, but to the crew of the Persistence by the Arubans..just like they did with every other bit of evidence that has been found over the years.
 

Reply #736 on: March 18, 2008, 12:05:16 PM kyle said:
"The famous "thumbs down" - Tim Trahan said he could not conclusively see human skeletal remains. The signals were: One thumb up for skeletal remains (body), two thumbs up for Natalee. When Tim came out of the water as seen on camera in the Dateline special, he was winded from the dive and gave a short answer of "No, nothing".  He (along with many of us) were expecting something very clear and immediately identifiable.  It wasn't so clear or obvious as he (and we, along with Tim Miller) expected and hoped upon visual-only inspection.
 Tim (along with myself) didn't expect an intact skeleton.  We expected a high level of scavenging by small to moderate sized predators including crustaceans, grouper, small sharks..etc. which (IMO) would likely spread any remains radially away from the trap opening.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366317#msg366317


ERROR in your information Idstlou

If they did not expect to find any bones why would they have a thumbs-up signal if he saw skeleton remains?

Tim (along with myself) didn't expect an intact skeleton.  We expected a high level of scavenging by small to moderate sized predators including crustaceans, grouper, small sharks..etc. which (IMO) would likely spread any remains radially away from the trap opening
 
The signals were: One thumb up for skeletal remains (body), two thumbs up for Natalee



#622 on: Today at 09:31:20 PM   ldstlou
 have to get a firm statement on this. Here is what I do know. Hope this helps.
Members of Quantico were on the Persistence, they were there when the dive was done on the 30th and actually told a member of Dateline it was not Natalee and they could use the footage in the show. Members of the Persistence did not learn this until later and called Dateline and got them to NOT air the footage. The FBI told Dateline they could not air the full footage of the case because it was under investigation. Dateline had to take the additional footage out of their show, so I know they had the footage based on this info
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=4216.620
 
According to Kyle that was the FBI they gave him permission
 
#732 on: March 18, 2008, 11:47:36 AM
 Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, Dateline and all comments in the Dateline special are pertaining to information available as of the Dec-30th dive, which was visual inspection only.  The trap contents weren't sampled until the 7th of January.  Neither Tim Miller, Tim Trahan, or Dateline were on board during this time.  Further, the forensic testing wasn't completed until early February.  The FBI comment regarding the level of case significance was premature and I believe (IMO-but with good reason) it was induced by Tim Uelinger's (Dateline producer) pressuring of the FBI contact for immediate answers.  Getting the response of nothing case significant gave Dateline a legal foothold to show the trap in their 1 hr special.  This response likely came before the FBI even received the samples for testing.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2705.msg366312#msg366312

Why would he send photos from the December 30 dive  to the FBI if they had been on board the boat?
 
#79 on: March 03, 2008, 01:47:47 PM
Video 2: Dec 30th - ROV and Diver visual-only inspection of trap.  This is the dive Dateline and Tim Miller witnessed, also the dive footage the screen captures I made came from that were posted by Robin at BNH.  I sent these 6 screen shots to the FBI and the FBI only. I was shocked to see them posted.  I thought we had a security breach on the boat from my workstation or a leak from the FBI.  Turns out the FBI gave them to Dave H. after he couldn't get them from me.  After Tim Miller told Dave that we found her in a trap with 99.9% certainty (this is pre-diver inspection), Dave very reasonably requested them from me.  I badly wanted to send them to him, but couldn't.  Apparently, shortly therafter the FBI send the screen shots to Dave anyway, and therefore Robin had them.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2668.msg360047#msg360047

So there were no FBI/Quantico people on board?  Is that another lie?

Great question???
Why would he send photos from the December 30 dive  to the FBI if they had been on board the boat?

[snoopy]

I think what we experienced tonight was a hijacking of sorts.
Friends of Kyle took over the board to offer soft, simple, mis
information to defend Kyle.  Maybe they are confused.
I think Kyle may be a little afraid of going to jail for the things
he has done, but why send women to defend him.  Why can't he
come himself?

Kyle is no friend to me.  I was only wanting to know if the family has been kept in the loop regarding the pictures and in a timely manner.  I told ldstlou that I believed what Jug has said, but had concerns about Kyle.  I do no ones bidding for them.